WEBVTT - The Mystery of Human Consciousness 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.040 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:14.520 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.840 My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Julie Duns. Julie, 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.000 do you ever just stop and think for a few moments? 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.360 I imagine you, dude, we all do um just start 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:27.479 to stop and think about your thinking, and stop and 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:32.159 think about your your being meta thinking. Yeah, bit, you know, 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:34.120 you're just you're you're setting there and maybe you're just 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:36.200 doing something you do every day. You're almost an autopilot. 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:37.960 And then you stop and you think, and it's like 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:41.839 and you realize, I'm this individual in this homined species. 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:45.080 It's evolved to this state where I'm I'm standing here 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:49.199 in this artificial structure, uh, that other people built for me, 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:51.760 other people designed for me, standing on the backbones of 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:54.960 other designers. I'm I'm wearing clothes for some reason, and 0:00:55.040 --> 0:01:01.200 I'm loading a dish dishwasher, and I'm thinking about my thoughts. Yes, 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:05.120 I mean, how you could not work on this podcast 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:08.200 and not have this sort of self awareness to that degree? 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:11.080 I have to say, because of everything that we are researching, 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:15.200 sometimes it is a matter of just being really overly 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:20.039 aware of your conscious and what you're doing, and wondering 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:22.520 if the thing that you're doing at that very moment 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.480 is even uh something that is free will, or you're 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.720 doing it because you're subconsciously colored by some other experience. So, yes, 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:33.880 and I think it's fascinating, this idea of consciousness because, 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:37.800 as David Eagleman says, we're the only species that that 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:41.400 takes our own operating system and then sort of looks 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:43.839 at it, like the operating system comes up and sort 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:46.319 of looks at the screen and says, what are you? 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.600 What am I? So we're talking about we're talking about 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.520 the operating system in the screen. We're obviously talking about 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:57.520 this mind brain problem. Yes, yeah, the mind brain problem, 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.280 the mind body problems. I feel like mind brain problem 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.920 is more of an accurate description, because what we're talking 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.760 about here is, of course that, uh, inside of this 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:11.400 squishy meat body, we have this physical brain. This this 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:13.320 this brain that is a part of a part of 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:16.960 our body, all right, and out of this brain, this 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:22.360 brain manifests the mind. The mind, of course, is our thoughts. 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.080 The things that happened to us every day are wanting 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.760 to do something, our experience of doing something, are wishing 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.400 we had not done something. All of these things that 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:34.720 come together into this storm of consciousness. Yeah, because on 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:38.800 the one hand, you have this very concrete, uh, three 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:43.279 pounds of gelatinous goose stuff right stuff cock. The neuroscientist 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.079 calls it the most complex object in the known universe, 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.400 right because it's composed of roughly one billion neurons that 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.480 each electrically spike in response to outside stimulus. You have 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:54.280 all this going on, and then you have the concept 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:56.600 of mind or the concept of self or self awareness 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:58.520 that you know that all these things are going on 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.960 outside of you and inside of you. Yes, so one 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:05.560 is not the other, but certainly one arises from the other. Yeah. 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:08.920 We study, we continue to study the brain NonStop. We 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.519 continue to study the mind. Psychologists or working neuroscientists or 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:16.040 working philosophers are working theologians, are working in in in 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:19.040 our own part and our own individual work. We're struggling 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.280 to sort of figure it all out. But we just 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:25.560 continue to to wrangle uh and and fail to comprehend 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:29.800 the psycho physical nexus between the two. And this is 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.600 where we get into the mind body problem. Um, we 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:36.360 work towards the answer, but we can't grasp it, not 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.400 yet and why is it important? Because to me it 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:43.200 is the holy grail of our existence. If we could 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:46.840 find the center of consciousness, if we could pinpoint it, 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:51.000 then we could somehow, we think, explain how it is 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:55.400 that we came to be here perhaps what it all means. Uh, 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.320 you know, it opens up this one door opens up 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:01.640 portals to too many other doors of our existence. Yeah, 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.200 I mean, our consciousness is our experience of the world 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:06.280 is our experience. It is it is us so in 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.120 a sense, is figuring out what we are really on 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:12.560 on a deeper level than pure organism. I mean, and 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:14.960 it's easy. This is a question that trails off at 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:19.680 all the ends into into various uh less scientific fields 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:21.839 as well. I mean, it's easy to spill over. I 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:24.159 mean because because again it's the It's the subject of 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:28.440 not only neuroscience and uh and end of and of psychology. 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:31.240 It's also the stuff of philosophy and theology. It's stuff 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:34.880 that we've wrangled with since our ability to to question 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:38.560 what consciousness is and to grasp some notion or at 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:42.279 least grasp after the question of consciousness. Okay, so before 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:46.960 we use an overview of various philosophies behind consciousness or 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.920 ideas about consciousness. Let's talk about something called a mirror test, 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:52.400 which you actually have a video on right now, Yes, 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:57.880 which highly enough does not feature a mirror. But but uh, 0:04:58.160 --> 0:04:59.840 but yeah, So we're always trying to figure out what 0:04:59.880 --> 0:05:03.599 kind just his obviously and one of the hallmarks of 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:05.599 consciousness one of the things that we can say, yes, 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:07.840 this is definitely on the list when we try and 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:12.000 figure out the attributes of human consciousness self awareness, because 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.480 again I looked at the ideas. I look in a mirror, 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:16.600 and what do I see? I say, Hey, that's me. 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:21.680 Who's that handsome devil? Or who's that weirdo with with 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:23.680 the ketchup on his face? You know, we we see 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.920 that that that's us and uh and at the very 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:31.240 least we're it makes us think about ourselves. Right. So 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:33.960 you have this mirror test, which is again a measure 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.440 of self awareness. This is developed by Gordon Gallup Jr. 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:40.720 In the seventies and he used it to ascertain consciousness 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:44.240 and animals as well as identify when children were entering 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:47.840 into the mirror stage of self awareness. So the idea 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.279 is you put a mark on an animal, yeah, on 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:53.480 the face somewhere where they can't see it without a mirror, 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:56.800 and they also can't feel it, So like you couldn't 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:58.560 just like stab him with something because they're going to 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.960 feel it, right, So you'd have to use a little subterrafugia. Right, 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:04.800 So presumably they look into the mirror before the mark 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:06.760 is on them, right, and then they have the mark 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:10.920 on them, they turn and they look, and it's then 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.040 observed whether or not the animal is reacting in amanner 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.240 consistent with being aware that the mark is located on 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:19.280 their body. Are they turning around to get a better 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:21.920 angle on it? Are they seeing that something is awry 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:25.560 or amiss um? So, animals that have passed the mirror test, 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:31.520 we're talking about chimpanzees, Binobo's, orangatangs, dolphins, elephants, and possibly 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:36.680 even pigeons. Yeah, European magpies on the list. Yeah, So 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:40.919 of course this we've had an extensive conversations about personhoods. 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:42.880 We won't go into that. Um. If you're interested in 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:44.960 learning more about that, definitely check that out. But there's 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.400 this idea that consciousness exists not just in humans but 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:52.840 in another species, and it complicates things in a way. Yeah, 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:54.360 Like I mean one of the ones that I keep 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:58.000 coming back to is the octopi, which if you give 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.240 an octopus a straight up mirror tests, that going to 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:04.800 fail it because their brains have evolved almost entirely separately 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.320 from from the million brains. So they're they're not, as is, 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.560 clued into these visual to a visual understanding of the 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.880 world around them. Uh. They can reference a mirror, but 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.080 they don't see it as themselves. But then there are 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:19.080 a number of other tests that you can give an octopus, 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:21.720 and and you know, stuff like tool use and learning 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.960 and uh, and some other attributes begin to line up 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:29.000 to really make an argument for octopus consciousness. So it, 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:30.840 like a lot of this stuff, it comes down to 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:32.600 how are you going to measure it? How are you 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.000 going to and how are you going to judge the measurement? Well, 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.720 I mean the same thing with guerillas. They tend to 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:41.160 not look at each other in the eyes with themselves 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.200 in a mirror in the eyes because it's a sign 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.640 of aggressiveness. So they fail the test, even though they 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:51.400 probably have a conscious right as self awareness. Um, so 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:53.520 you're right, that's it's not a full proof way to 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:56.800 say definitively, this is what consciousness is at least in 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:00.640 this one aspect and the following species have it. So 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.880 he thought it was would be interesting to look at 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:08.440 a couple of brain mapping projects in the context of 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:12.480 this conversation, because the brain mapping projects which we talked 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:16.640 about before, like the Blue Brain project, Um, this is 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.640 this idea that you could reverse engineer of the human 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.320 brain and you could begin to see all these processes 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:28.120 happening inside of it. And uh, you know, much like 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:30.240 some of the fmr I technology that we talked about 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:32.960 in terms of crime and you know, trying to figure 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.360 out whether or not someone had committed a crime based 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.880 on what was going on in their hippocampus in their memory, 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.840 the same thing could happen in a sense where you 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.400 could begin to understand the mysteries of the human brain. 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:49.320 This idea of consciousness, like maybe this would manifest itself 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:53.000 in these projects. So we're talking about the Human Brain Project, 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.360 and this is an attempt to construct a massive computer 0:08:56.440 --> 0:09:00.080 simulation of the Brainness is the European initiative and and 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.880 remark from is the coordinator of this. He's also the 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:05.840 Bluebrain guy. Yes, And then there's also this Brain Activity 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:08.760 MATT project and this is a decade long scientific effort 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:10.680 to examine the workings of the human brain. This is 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:14.240 what Obama back in I think April announced something like 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:18.040 a three billion UM budget against that. And so that 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:20.920 is this idea that you can build a comprehensive map 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:24.199 of its activity and try to do the same thing 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.240 for the brain that was done for the Human Genome project. 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.480 So we'll talk more about that later. But we are 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:33.920 so interested in the brain, how it works, and again 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:38.480 these mysteries that are wrapped up in it, including consciousness, 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:42.320 that we can't help but to to try to decode it. 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.559 All right, So let's back up just a little bit, um, 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:47.960 you know, just a few centuries or so, and talk 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:53.080 about some some various various philosophical ideas about what consciousness 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.400 is and uh and and how we're supposed to deal 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.280 with the with the mind body problem. And it's worth 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:01.600 the worth noting that so many of the philosophers were 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:03.720 gonna point out here they weren't only philosophers, they're also 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.240 also some of his mathematicians, biologists, just general men of science. 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.680 And then part of the questing after these answers involved 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.520 a multi disciplinary approach. Um. And these were. I should 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.439 also mention that these particular examples were brought up by 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:21.240 philosopher Column again. Uh this year's World Science Festival in 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:25.200 the Whispering Mind, the Enduring a conundrum of consciousness. Uh. 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.319 And we're gonna talk about McGain himself in a bit 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.600 as well. So let's go back to the days of 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.920 renetic arts. It's I think therefore I am. He was 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:35.280 a duelist. He saw the mind and body is separate. 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:37.959 He's had the essence of mind is thought and body 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:41.480 is an extension off it. Thoughts are not extended in space, 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.480 but the body is. Uh. There was leading Is born 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.720 in sixty six. He made this analogy of the mill. Okay, 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:49.640 if you walk through the meat of the brain, or 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:52.120 more likely, I guess just pod your hand around in it, 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.200 you wouldn't see thoughts. You'd only see electrochemical mechanisms. So 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.280 he stated that the mind exists invisible, but there's harmony 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:02.200 between mind and body. Uh. Then you had Thomas Huxley 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.240 born in and he compared the conscious mind and the 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.280 physical brain to a genie and a lamp. You rub 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.319 the you rub the lamp in this case the physical brain, 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:15.480 and out of it manifest this this uh ephemeral genie, 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:19.720 this consciousness. Okay, and uh, and so the the argument 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.240 that he's making here is that, uh, that we just 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.719 cannot equate the two because here we just have irritating 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:30.000 nervous tissue and here we have the wonders of human consciousness. 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:33.079 And Hutley was an epiphenomenalist, so he was a duelist, 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.319 but he saw the mind is kind of a byproduct 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.880 of the brain, uh, not necessary to the day to 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.560 day operations, but kind of a shadow cast by by 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.680 this by this organ which I think is very interesting 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:46.600 when we we think back to some of what we've 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:50.440 done about free will and about subconscious activities in the brain, 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:54.240 and this idea that that our experience of thought and 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.720 even body is kind of what happens above the surface 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:00.360 of a dark sea. And there's a lot that goes 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:03.440 on underneath the waves that we're not privy to, but 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.360 that's where most of the sausage is being made. Then 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.840 there's author Eddington born in two and he uh he 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:13.600 argued that consciousness is not sharply defined, but fades into subconsciousness. 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.200 And then you have then you have some contemporary philosophers 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:19.079 worth any mentioning saw Crypti. He said that mind and 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:21.400 brain are not identical, and you can just look at pain. 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.280 If we look at pain as it's experienced in the brain, uh, 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.440 the scans and the neural activity, it's rather different from 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:29.400 the way we experience it. So we have we have 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:31.680 problems when we start trying to rate pain, like what 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.280 is what is a level seven pain? And there's some 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.160 efforts right now to try and do just this, but 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:38.880 but it's not as as simple as just saying what 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:40.560 did that hurt? How much did that hurts? That A 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.720 five or six and expecting that to pan out among 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:47.640 everyone's experience. It's the subjective nature of consciousness. And then 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:49.720 you had Nagel who are you? Said that to consciousness 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:53.439 cannot be reduced to the brain. And then finally Colin mcgainuh, 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.360 the new mysterianism guy, and we're gonna talk about him 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.360 in a bit. You know what, there's also this idea 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.880 that day different brain, right, I mean that there is 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:07.800 not this illusion that we have a stasis in both 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.760 our concept of ourselves, our self awareness in the world. Um, 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:15.480 this changes from day to day based on our experiences. UM. 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.040 Not to mention chemical changes in the brain. Yeah, our 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.760 mind changes constantly. We're we're not the same person we 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:23.800 were a year ago, five years ago. We're not necessarily 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.319 the same person we were yesterday and uh, and the 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.559 brain changes as well. A lot of the duellist arguments 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.760 are that the mind and brain are separate entities, but 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.199 that they are, that the mind can change the brain, 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.440 and the brain can change the mind. UM. I tend 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.400 to really like that, Like the idea of the of 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:43.840 the mind is the shadow cast by the brain. Um. 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:47.400 That one seems to resonate more with my own personal experience. Well, 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.080 especially when you look at something like the placebo effect. 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.160 We've talked about this before about how someone can take 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:56.320 the side effects, um, and they can take a cebo 0:13:56.480 --> 0:14:00.360 drug and consider those side effects, right, the ramification who 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.080 you know, their self awareness, how they're going to operate 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.240 in the world with this knowledge that they could fall 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:10.680 asleep at the wheel or get hives or whatever other 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.360 side fact available to them, and then it manifests in 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:17.480 them physically. So here you have the brain and the 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.760 in the mind acting on each other. And it really 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:22.640 does blow the mind when you start thinking about it. 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.480 It's because and you can see where the problem of 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:29.440 resident rectifying these two things really grows and just becomes 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:33.240 increasingly difficult to wrap your mind around. All right, well, 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.400 let's take a quick break and when we get back, 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.560 we can begin at the beginning. When do we become 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:54.280 truly conscious? All right, we're back, and we are going 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:58.400 to talk about the darkness that comes before consciousness, right uh, 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:02.960 specifically in the womb. Uh uh. Neuroscientists Christoph coch or 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.480 Cock I believe, yes, yeah, And he was on this 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.360 panel at World Science and he's quite the firebrand he is. 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:12.200 He is so much fun to listen to and to watch. 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:17.160 Actually uh he is uh writing for Scientific American as well, 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.240 And in the article when does Consciousness Arising Human Babies? 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:24.600 He talks about something called the thalamo cortical complex and 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.000 he says this provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:32.040 and it begins to be put into place between the 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:36.360 two and the week of gestation, okay, within the womb. 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:38.680 And then he goes on to say that a lot 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.880 of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:46.400 by the third trimester. But he says, because there's this idea, well, 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.360 you know, could could a fetus be conscious could have 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:53.840 some sort of awareness. He says that the fetus is 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:56.680 suspended in a warm and dark cave connected to the 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.880 placenta that pumps blood, nutrients, and hormones into its grow 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:04.120 body and brain. The fetus is asleep. So it's a 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:06.680 very interesting article. I encourage everybody to check it out, 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:08.960 but I just wanted to highlight a couple of points 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:11.880 from it. He goes on to detail the various ways 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:14.360 in which the fetus essentially is sedated within the womb, 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:17.880 and then he says the dramatic events attending delivery by 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:21.080 natural vaginal means cause the brain of the fetus to 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:25.120 abruptly wake up. The release from anesthesia and sedation that 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:28.880 occurs when the fetus disconnects from the maternal placenta arouses 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.640 the baby so that it can deal with its new circumstances. 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.200 It draws its first breath, wakes up, and begins to 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:39.560 experience life. Yeah, and it's it's pretty much the biggest 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:43.360 wake up of all time. Like it's really difficult to 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.560 even try and like put it in like adult human terms. 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:48.800 Like the closest thing I can think of is my 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.440 mind goes back to some of the recent experiments with 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:57.360 psilocybin that have been conducted where they're injecting individuals with psilocybin. 0:16:57.440 --> 0:16:59.600 So there's like this blast off moment where they're just 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:04.960 suddenly experiencing intense psychedelic experience. Like that has got to 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.880 be at least similar to what's going on here, because 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.919 they're just going from zero to a hundred just like that. 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:13.760 Suddenly they are sensing the world. They are, in a 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.400 limited sense, seeing the world, and everything's just coming at 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.800 them there there, and they're they're they're unhooked from this 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.960 life support system that has previously sustained them. You know. 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.960 I couldn't help but think about the matrix. Yeah, yeah, 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.440 exactly when they're waking up out of that the tank, 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:32.840 right and ripping things out of canoe, Guiano reeves neck 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:35.879 right right, because otherwise they were just sitting there in 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:41.400 that in that sort of sedative um state, providing energy, right. Um. 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:45.280 So I did think it was interesting though that that 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.440 he talks about this, that cop talks about this emergence 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.239 into life and and and all the stimuli. And I 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.720 couldn't help but be reminded of cognitive psychologist Alice and 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.240 goth Nick And when she talks about the baby's brain 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:02.119 being completely soaked in neurotransmitters because everything matters. You know, 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.720 they don't have a neural pruning yet, and so they're 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:08.480 differently conscious from adults. And she makes the argument that 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:12.120 they are much more conscious than adults, which really kind 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.639 of puts a whole tale spin on this idea of 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:18.440 consciousness and self awareness. Of course, because if you give 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.520 them the test, the mirror test, it's eight months before 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:22.680 generally more or less eight months before they're going to 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.840 pass that thing. Right, they'll be interested in their image, 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:28.680 but they won't necessarily know that that's them staring back 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:33.640 at them. Um, we think, right, yeah, because earlier than that, though, 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:35.640 the ceiling fan is a big hit. I've been hanging 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.159 out with some baby afficiently and the ceiling fan is 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.840 apparently just amazing. It's like watching uh, it's it's like 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:44.800 the adult version of watching Baraka on an HD screen 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.159 with Blu Ray is just watching that ceiling fan go 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:49.840 around and around. You know, my daughter, when she was 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.320 an infant, was so interested in these trees. Um. I 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.120 don't know that they're crepe myrtles, but you know they're 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.119 very vertical trees. Outside of her windows. So when I 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:02.280 would feed her, she would just be absolutely engaged in this. 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.119 And then I learned later that the neurons that we 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.040 have in our visual cortex are much more dedicated to 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:12.440 the x y plane than diagonal, So it makes sense 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:16.199 that these really strong verticals appealed to children. Anyway, this 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.080 is a side note to consciousness here. Now we're talking 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.760 about the the the infant in the womb being asleep, um, 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:24.280 and in the course that instantly makes you think, well, 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.760 what are they dreaming about? Uh? Probably nothing, because one 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.280 of the studies we're looking at American and a psychologist, 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:34.919 David Folks, study the dreaming and cognitive development UH in 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:39.720 preschoolers and he believes preschoolers dreams are are generally static 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:41.879 and playing with no characters that move in act and 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:45.240 hardly any feelings or in no memories because what's to 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:47.200 be processed. I mean not to turn this into a 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:52.919 dream podcast, but the dream is a byproduct of cognition 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:57.359 and UH. And then to to look at preschoolers dreams 0:19:57.359 --> 0:19:59.520 and there's like nothing going on. There's just not enough 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.880 deterial to process. But there is stimuli to be processed. 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:07.000 There is cognition in the womb because you have auditory 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:11.600 uh stimuli, and you do have light. Right. Um. I 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.520 guess you could to a degree say there's taste as well, 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:18.040 because you have the some of the molecules of taste 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:20.800 crossing over in the placenta. But anyway, the point is 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:23.400 that there's no context for it, right right, all right, 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.720 So back from dreams in the womb, back from the 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:32.639 explosive psychedelic experience of birth. Um, talking more about the 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.920 problem of consciousness. Now you can you can really divide 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.200 consciousness problems up into the easy problems of consciousness and 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:42.639 then the really hard problem of consciousness. Now, Uh, if 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:44.440 I may, I'll just run through the easy problems of 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:49.240 consciousness for us real quick. Um. The ability to discriminate, categorize, 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:52.080 and react to environmental stimuli. All right, we can do that. 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:54.399 We can do that. I just didn't now. Uh. The 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:58.720 integration of information by a cognitive system. I've got information 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:02.000 coming in from three D ways. Like an individual is 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:04.200 telling me one thing, but their face is saying another. 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:06.760 How am I supposed to interpret to interpret that into 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.280 a general idea of what's going on? Um? The reportability 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:12.639 of mental states. You know, you can talk about how 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.320 you feel and how you feel. You that you feel 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.040 the ability of a system to access its own internal states. 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:23.120 I'm aware of how I'm feeling. The focus of attention. 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:25.680 I can focus my attention on this, that or the other. Uh. 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:28.960 Sometimes given the right amount of coffee. Uh. The deliberate 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.200 control of behavior. I'm not just a self moving soul. 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.840 I I am. It's just caught in the river of actions. 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:38.240 I can actually think about what I'm doing. I think 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:40.600 you're tamping down right now, the fact that you really 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:44.880 want to dance, right, Yeah, but all that gesticulation is right, 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:46.919 And even though that's on the easy problems list, you 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:48.879 have to admit that one really spills out into the 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:52.200 whole issue of free will as well. But still dancing, Yeah, 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:55.440 it comes on, I can't help myself. Well in a way, 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:58.960 you're you're right. To what extent can you disobey the beat? 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:00.720