1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Julie Duns. Julie, 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: do you ever just stop and think for a few moments? 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: I imagine you, dude, we all do um just start 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: to stop and think about your thinking, and stop and 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: think about your your being meta thinking. Yeah, bit, you know, 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: you're just you're you're setting there and maybe you're just 9 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: doing something you do every day. You're almost an autopilot. 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: And then you stop and you think, and it's like 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: and you realize, I'm this individual in this homined species. 12 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: It's evolved to this state where I'm I'm standing here 13 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: in this artificial structure, uh, that other people built for me, 14 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: other people designed for me, standing on the backbones of 15 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: other designers. I'm I'm wearing clothes for some reason, and 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: I'm loading a dish dishwasher, and I'm thinking about my thoughts. Yes, 17 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: I mean, how you could not work on this podcast 18 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: and not have this sort of self awareness to that degree? 19 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: I have to say, because of everything that we are researching, 20 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: sometimes it is a matter of just being really overly 21 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: aware of your conscious and what you're doing, and wondering 22 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: if the thing that you're doing at that very moment 23 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: is even uh something that is free will, or you're 24 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: doing it because you're subconsciously colored by some other experience. So, yes, 25 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: and I think it's fascinating, this idea of consciousness because, 26 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: as David Eagleman says, we're the only species that that 27 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: takes our own operating system and then sort of looks 28 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 1: at it, like the operating system comes up and sort 29 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: of looks at the screen and says, what are you? 30 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: What am I? So we're talking about we're talking about 31 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: the operating system in the screen. We're obviously talking about 32 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: this mind brain problem. Yes, yeah, the mind brain problem, 33 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: the mind body problems. I feel like mind brain problem 34 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: is more of an accurate description, because what we're talking 35 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: about here is, of course that, uh, inside of this 36 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: squishy meat body, we have this physical brain. This this 37 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: this brain that is a part of a part of 38 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: our body, all right, and out of this brain, this 39 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: brain manifests the mind. The mind, of course, is our thoughts. 40 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: The things that happened to us every day are wanting 41 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: to do something, our experience of doing something, are wishing 42 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: we had not done something. All of these things that 43 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: come together into this storm of consciousness. Yeah, because on 44 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: the one hand, you have this very concrete, uh, three 45 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,279 Speaker 1: pounds of gelatinous goose stuff right stuff cock. The neuroscientist 46 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: calls it the most complex object in the known universe, 47 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: right because it's composed of roughly one billion neurons that 48 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: each electrically spike in response to outside stimulus. You have 49 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: all this going on, and then you have the concept 50 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: of mind or the concept of self or self awareness 51 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: that you know that all these things are going on 52 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: outside of you and inside of you. Yes, so one 53 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: is not the other, but certainly one arises from the other. Yeah. 54 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: We study, we continue to study the brain NonStop. We 55 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 1: continue to study the mind. Psychologists or working neuroscientists or 56 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: working philosophers are working theologians, are working in in in 57 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: our own part and our own individual work. We're struggling 58 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: to sort of figure it all out. But we just 59 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: continue to to wrangle uh and and fail to comprehend 60 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: the psycho physical nexus between the two. And this is 61 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: where we get into the mind body problem. Um, we 62 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: work towards the answer, but we can't grasp it, not 63 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: yet and why is it important? Because to me it 64 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: is the holy grail of our existence. If we could 65 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: find the center of consciousness, if we could pinpoint it, 66 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: then we could somehow, we think, explain how it is 67 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: that we came to be here perhaps what it all means. Uh, 68 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, it opens up this one door opens up 69 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: portals to too many other doors of our existence. Yeah, 70 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: I mean, our consciousness is our experience of the world 71 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: is our experience. It is it is us so in 72 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: a sense, is figuring out what we are really on 73 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: on a deeper level than pure organism. I mean, and 74 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: it's easy. This is a question that trails off at 75 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: all the ends into into various uh less scientific fields 76 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: as well. I mean, it's easy to spill over. I 77 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: mean because because again it's the It's the subject of 78 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: not only neuroscience and uh and end of and of psychology. 79 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: It's also the stuff of philosophy and theology. It's stuff 80 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: that we've wrangled with since our ability to to question 81 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: what consciousness is and to grasp some notion or at 82 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: least grasp after the question of consciousness. Okay, so before 83 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: we use an overview of various philosophies behind consciousness or 84 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: ideas about consciousness. Let's talk about something called a mirror test, 85 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: which you actually have a video on right now, Yes, 86 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: which highly enough does not feature a mirror. But but uh, 87 00:04:58,160 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: but yeah, So we're always trying to figure out what 88 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: kind just his obviously and one of the hallmarks of 89 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: consciousness one of the things that we can say, yes, 90 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: this is definitely on the list when we try and 91 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: figure out the attributes of human consciousness self awareness, because 92 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: again I looked at the ideas. I look in a mirror, 93 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: and what do I see? I say, Hey, that's me. 94 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: Who's that handsome devil? Or who's that weirdo with with 95 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: the ketchup on his face? You know, we we see 96 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: that that that's us and uh and at the very 97 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: least we're it makes us think about ourselves. Right. So 98 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: you have this mirror test, which is again a measure 99 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: of self awareness. This is developed by Gordon Gallup Jr. 100 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: In the seventies and he used it to ascertain consciousness 101 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: and animals as well as identify when children were entering 102 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: into the mirror stage of self awareness. So the idea 103 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: is you put a mark on an animal, yeah, on 104 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: the face somewhere where they can't see it without a mirror, 105 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: and they also can't feel it, So like you couldn't 106 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: just like stab him with something because they're going to 107 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: feel it, right, So you'd have to use a little subterrafugia. Right, 108 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: So presumably they look into the mirror before the mark 109 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: is on them, right, and then they have the mark 110 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: on them, they turn and they look, and it's then 111 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: observed whether or not the animal is reacting in amanner 112 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: consistent with being aware that the mark is located on 113 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: their body. Are they turning around to get a better 114 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: angle on it? Are they seeing that something is awry 115 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: or amiss um? So, animals that have passed the mirror test, 116 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about chimpanzees, Binobo's, orangatangs, dolphins, elephants, and possibly 117 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: even pigeons. Yeah, European magpies on the list. Yeah, So 118 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: of course this we've had an extensive conversations about personhoods. 119 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: We won't go into that. Um. If you're interested in 120 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: learning more about that, definitely check that out. But there's 121 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: this idea that consciousness exists not just in humans but 122 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: in another species, and it complicates things in a way. Yeah, 123 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: Like I mean one of the ones that I keep 124 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: coming back to is the octopi, which if you give 125 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: an octopus a straight up mirror tests, that going to 126 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: fail it because their brains have evolved almost entirely separately 127 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: from from the million brains. So they're they're not, as is, 128 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: clued into these visual to a visual understanding of the 129 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: world around them. Uh. They can reference a mirror, but 130 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: they don't see it as themselves. But then there are 131 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: a number of other tests that you can give an octopus, 132 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: and and you know, stuff like tool use and learning 133 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: and uh, and some other attributes begin to line up 134 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: to really make an argument for octopus consciousness. So it, 135 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: like a lot of this stuff, it comes down to 136 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: how are you going to measure it? How are you 137 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: going to and how are you going to judge the measurement? Well, 138 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: I mean the same thing with guerillas. They tend to 139 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: not look at each other in the eyes with themselves 140 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: in a mirror in the eyes because it's a sign 141 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: of aggressiveness. So they fail the test, even though they 142 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: probably have a conscious right as self awareness. Um, so 143 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: you're right, that's it's not a full proof way to 144 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: say definitively, this is what consciousness is at least in 145 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: this one aspect and the following species have it. So 146 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: he thought it was would be interesting to look at 147 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: a couple of brain mapping projects in the context of 148 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: this conversation, because the brain mapping projects which we talked 149 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: about before, like the Blue Brain project, Um, this is 150 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: this idea that you could reverse engineer of the human 151 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: brain and you could begin to see all these processes 152 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: happening inside of it. And uh, you know, much like 153 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: some of the fmr I technology that we talked about 154 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: in terms of crime and you know, trying to figure 155 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: out whether or not someone had committed a crime based 156 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: on what was going on in their hippocampus in their memory, 157 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: the same thing could happen in a sense where you 158 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: could begin to understand the mysteries of the human brain. 159 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: This idea of consciousness, like maybe this would manifest itself 160 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: in these projects. So we're talking about the Human Brain Project, 161 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: and this is an attempt to construct a massive computer 162 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 1: simulation of the Brainness is the European initiative and and 163 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: remark from is the coordinator of this. He's also the 164 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: Bluebrain guy. Yes, And then there's also this Brain Activity 165 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: MATT project and this is a decade long scientific effort 166 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: to examine the workings of the human brain. This is 167 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: what Obama back in I think April announced something like 168 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: a three billion UM budget against that. And so that 169 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: is this idea that you can build a comprehensive map 170 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: of its activity and try to do the same thing 171 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: for the brain that was done for the Human Genome project. 172 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: So we'll talk more about that later. But we are 173 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: so interested in the brain, how it works, and again 174 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: these mysteries that are wrapped up in it, including consciousness, 175 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: that we can't help but to to try to decode it. 176 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 1: All right, So let's back up just a little bit, um, 177 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: you know, just a few centuries or so, and talk 178 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: about some some various various philosophical ideas about what consciousness 179 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: is and uh and and how we're supposed to deal 180 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: with the with the mind body problem. And it's worth 181 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: the worth noting that so many of the philosophers were 182 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: gonna point out here they weren't only philosophers, they're also 183 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: also some of his mathematicians, biologists, just general men of science. 184 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: And then part of the questing after these answers involved 185 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: a multi disciplinary approach. Um. And these were. I should 186 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 1: also mention that these particular examples were brought up by 187 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: philosopher Column again. Uh this year's World Science Festival in 188 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: the Whispering Mind, the Enduring a conundrum of consciousness. Uh. 189 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,319 Speaker 1: And we're gonna talk about McGain himself in a bit 190 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: as well. So let's go back to the days of 191 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: renetic arts. It's I think therefore I am. He was 192 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: a duelist. He saw the mind and body is separate. 193 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: He's had the essence of mind is thought and body 194 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: is an extension off it. Thoughts are not extended in space, 195 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: but the body is. Uh. There was leading Is born 196 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: in sixty six. He made this analogy of the mill. Okay, 197 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: if you walk through the meat of the brain, or 198 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: more likely, I guess just pod your hand around in it, 199 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: you wouldn't see thoughts. You'd only see electrochemical mechanisms. So 200 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: he stated that the mind exists invisible, but there's harmony 201 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: between mind and body. Uh. Then you had Thomas Huxley 202 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: born in and he compared the conscious mind and the 203 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: physical brain to a genie and a lamp. You rub 204 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: the you rub the lamp in this case the physical brain, 205 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: and out of it manifest this this uh ephemeral genie, 206 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: this consciousness. Okay, and uh, and so the the argument 207 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: that he's making here is that, uh, that we just 208 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 1: cannot equate the two because here we just have irritating 209 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: nervous tissue and here we have the wonders of human consciousness. 210 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: And Hutley was an epiphenomenalist, so he was a duelist, 211 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 1: but he saw the mind is kind of a byproduct 212 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: of the brain, uh, not necessary to the day to 213 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: day operations, but kind of a shadow cast by by 214 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: this by this organ which I think is very interesting 215 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: when we we think back to some of what we've 216 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: done about free will and about subconscious activities in the brain, 217 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: and this idea that that our experience of thought and 218 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: even body is kind of what happens above the surface 219 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: of a dark sea. And there's a lot that goes 220 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: on underneath the waves that we're not privy to, but 221 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: that's where most of the sausage is being made. Then 222 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: there's author Eddington born in two and he uh he 223 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: argued that consciousness is not sharply defined, but fades into subconsciousness. 224 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: And then you have then you have some contemporary philosophers 225 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 1: worth any mentioning saw Crypti. He said that mind and 226 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: brain are not identical, and you can just look at pain. 227 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: If we look at pain as it's experienced in the brain, uh, 228 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: the scans and the neural activity, it's rather different from 229 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: the way we experience it. So we have we have 230 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: problems when we start trying to rate pain, like what 231 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: is what is a level seven pain? And there's some 232 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: efforts right now to try and do just this, but 233 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: but it's not as as simple as just saying what 234 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: did that hurt? How much did that hurts? That A 235 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: five or six and expecting that to pan out among 236 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: everyone's experience. It's the subjective nature of consciousness. And then 237 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: you had Nagel who are you? Said that to consciousness 238 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 1: cannot be reduced to the brain. And then finally Colin mcgainuh, 239 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: the new mysterianism guy, and we're gonna talk about him 240 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: in a bit. You know what, there's also this idea 241 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: that day different brain, right, I mean that there is 242 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: not this illusion that we have a stasis in both 243 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: our concept of ourselves, our self awareness in the world. Um, 244 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: this changes from day to day based on our experiences. UM. 245 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: Not to mention chemical changes in the brain. Yeah, our 246 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: mind changes constantly. We're we're not the same person we 247 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: were a year ago, five years ago. We're not necessarily 248 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 1: the same person we were yesterday and uh, and the 249 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 1: brain changes as well. A lot of the duellist arguments 250 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: are that the mind and brain are separate entities, but 251 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: that they are, that the mind can change the brain, 252 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: and the brain can change the mind. UM. I tend 253 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: to really like that, Like the idea of the of 254 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: the mind is the shadow cast by the brain. Um. 255 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: That one seems to resonate more with my own personal experience. Well, 256 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: especially when you look at something like the placebo effect. 257 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: We've talked about this before about how someone can take 258 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: the side effects, um, and they can take a cebo 259 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: drug and consider those side effects, right, the ramification who 260 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: you know, their self awareness, how they're going to operate 261 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: in the world with this knowledge that they could fall 262 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: asleep at the wheel or get hives or whatever other 263 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: side fact available to them, and then it manifests in 264 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: them physically. So here you have the brain and the 265 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: in the mind acting on each other. And it really 266 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: does blow the mind when you start thinking about it. 267 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: It's because and you can see where the problem of 268 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: resident rectifying these two things really grows and just becomes 269 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: increasingly difficult to wrap your mind around. All right, well, 270 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and when we get back, 271 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: we can begin at the beginning. When do we become 272 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: truly conscious? All right, we're back, and we are going 273 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: to talk about the darkness that comes before consciousness, right uh, 274 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: specifically in the womb. Uh uh. Neuroscientists Christoph coch or 275 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: Cock I believe, yes, yeah, And he was on this 276 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: panel at World Science and he's quite the firebrand he is. 277 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: He is so much fun to listen to and to watch. 278 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: Actually uh he is uh writing for Scientific American as well, 279 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: And in the article when does Consciousness Arising Human Babies? 280 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: He talks about something called the thalamo cortical complex and 281 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: he says this provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, 282 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: and it begins to be put into place between the 283 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: two and the week of gestation, okay, within the womb. 284 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: And then he goes on to say that a lot 285 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place 286 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: by the third trimester. But he says, because there's this idea, well, 287 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, could could a fetus be conscious could have 288 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: some sort of awareness. He says that the fetus is 289 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: suspended in a warm and dark cave connected to the 290 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: placenta that pumps blood, nutrients, and hormones into its grow 291 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: body and brain. The fetus is asleep. So it's a 292 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: very interesting article. I encourage everybody to check it out, 293 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: but I just wanted to highlight a couple of points 294 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: from it. He goes on to detail the various ways 295 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: in which the fetus essentially is sedated within the womb, 296 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: and then he says the dramatic events attending delivery by 297 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: natural vaginal means cause the brain of the fetus to 298 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: abruptly wake up. The release from anesthesia and sedation that 299 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: occurs when the fetus disconnects from the maternal placenta arouses 300 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: the baby so that it can deal with its new circumstances. 301 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: It draws its first breath, wakes up, and begins to 302 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: experience life. Yeah, and it's it's pretty much the biggest 303 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: wake up of all time. Like it's really difficult to 304 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: even try and like put it in like adult human terms. 305 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: Like the closest thing I can think of is my 306 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: mind goes back to some of the recent experiments with 307 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: psilocybin that have been conducted where they're injecting individuals with psilocybin. 308 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: So there's like this blast off moment where they're just 309 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: suddenly experiencing intense psychedelic experience. Like that has got to 310 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 1: be at least similar to what's going on here, because 311 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 1: they're just going from zero to a hundred just like that. 312 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: Suddenly they are sensing the world. They are, in a 313 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: limited sense, seeing the world, and everything's just coming at 314 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: them there there, and they're they're they're unhooked from this 315 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: life support system that has previously sustained them. You know. 316 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: I couldn't help but think about the matrix. Yeah, yeah, 317 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: exactly when they're waking up out of that the tank, 318 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: right and ripping things out of canoe, Guiano reeves neck 319 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: right right, because otherwise they were just sitting there in 320 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 1: that in that sort of sedative um state, providing energy, right. Um. 321 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: So I did think it was interesting though that that 322 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: he talks about this, that cop talks about this emergence 323 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,239 Speaker 1: into life and and and all the stimuli. And I 324 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: couldn't help but be reminded of cognitive psychologist Alice and 325 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: goth Nick And when she talks about the baby's brain 326 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: being completely soaked in neurotransmitters because everything matters. You know, 327 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: they don't have a neural pruning yet, and so they're 328 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: differently conscious from adults. And she makes the argument that 329 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: they are much more conscious than adults, which really kind 330 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: of puts a whole tale spin on this idea of 331 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: consciousness and self awareness. Of course, because if you give 332 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: them the test, the mirror test, it's eight months before 333 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: generally more or less eight months before they're going to 334 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: pass that thing. Right, they'll be interested in their image, 335 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: but they won't necessarily know that that's them staring back 336 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: at them. Um, we think, right, yeah, because earlier than that, though, 337 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 1: the ceiling fan is a big hit. I've been hanging 338 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: out with some baby afficiently and the ceiling fan is 339 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: apparently just amazing. It's like watching uh, it's it's like 340 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: the adult version of watching Baraka on an HD screen 341 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: with Blu Ray is just watching that ceiling fan go 342 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: around and around. You know, my daughter, when she was 343 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: an infant, was so interested in these trees. Um. I 344 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 1: don't know that they're crepe myrtles, but you know they're 345 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: very vertical trees. Outside of her windows. So when I 346 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: would feed her, she would just be absolutely engaged in this. 347 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: And then I learned later that the neurons that we 348 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: have in our visual cortex are much more dedicated to 349 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: the x y plane than diagonal, So it makes sense 350 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 1: that these really strong verticals appealed to children. Anyway, this 351 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: is a side note to consciousness here. Now we're talking 352 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: about the the the infant in the womb being asleep, um, 353 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: and in the course that instantly makes you think, well, 354 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: what are they dreaming about? Uh? Probably nothing, because one 355 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: of the studies we're looking at American and a psychologist, 356 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 1: David Folks, study the dreaming and cognitive development UH in 357 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: preschoolers and he believes preschoolers dreams are are generally static 358 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: and playing with no characters that move in act and 359 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: hardly any feelings or in no memories because what's to 360 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: be processed. I mean not to turn this into a 361 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: dream podcast, but the dream is a byproduct of cognition 362 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: and UH. And then to to look at preschoolers dreams 363 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: and there's like nothing going on. There's just not enough 364 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: deterial to process. But there is stimuli to be processed. 365 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: There is cognition in the womb because you have auditory 366 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: uh stimuli, and you do have light. Right. Um. I 367 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: guess you could to a degree say there's taste as well, 368 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: because you have the some of the molecules of taste 369 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: crossing over in the placenta. But anyway, the point is 370 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 1: that there's no context for it, right right, all right, 371 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: So back from dreams in the womb, back from the 372 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: explosive psychedelic experience of birth. Um, talking more about the 373 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: problem of consciousness. Now you can you can really divide 374 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: consciousness problems up into the easy problems of consciousness and 375 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: then the really hard problem of consciousness. Now, Uh, if 376 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: I may, I'll just run through the easy problems of 377 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: consciousness for us real quick. Um. The ability to discriminate, categorize, 378 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: and react to environmental stimuli. All right, we can do that. 379 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: We can do that. I just didn't now. Uh. The 380 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: integration of information by a cognitive system. I've got information 381 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: coming in from three D ways. Like an individual is 382 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: telling me one thing, but their face is saying another. 383 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: How am I supposed to interpret to interpret that into 384 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: a general idea of what's going on? Um? The reportability 385 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: of mental states. You know, you can talk about how 386 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: you feel and how you feel. You that you feel 387 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: the ability of a system to access its own internal states. 388 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 1: I'm aware of how I'm feeling. The focus of attention. 389 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: I can focus my attention on this, that or the other. Uh. 390 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: Sometimes given the right amount of coffee. Uh. The deliberate 391 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: control of behavior. I'm not just a self moving soul. 392 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: I I am. It's just caught in the river of actions. 393 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: I can actually think about what I'm doing. I think 394 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: you're tamping down right now, the fact that you really 395 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: want to dance, right, Yeah, but all that gesticulation is right, 396 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 1: And even though that's on the easy problems list, you 397 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: have to admit that one really spills out into the 398 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: whole issue of free will as well. But still dancing, Yeah, 399 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: it comes on, I can't help myself. Well in a way, 400 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: you're you're right. To what extent can you disobey the beat? 401 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. But then the final one of the 402 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: easy problems of conscious the difference between wakefulness and sleep. Um, 403 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: we've talked about this enough, so we're not going to 404 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: dive back into that one. But obviously being away can 405 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: being a sleeper to different states, different types of conscious 406 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: and unconscious is going on there, but but being aware 407 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: of the difference. Yeah, my top is still spinning, So 408 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: I think this is a dream reference. Uh So the 409 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,719 Speaker 1: really hard problem, right, and this is David J. Chalmers 410 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: from the University of Arizona. He talks about this hard 411 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: problem of being experienced, right, because we think we perceive 412 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: there's a wre of information processing, but there is a 413 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 1: largely subjective aspect of this. Yeah, my experience of the 414 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: universe is not going to be like yours. And there 415 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: are ways that we can compare those experiences, but we 416 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: can't definitively really line them up one to one. And 417 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: then when you start looking at other species, this is 418 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: where you get into into naples work, which we've actually 419 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: mentioned before in our episode on bats. He had that 420 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: article what is it Like to be a bat? That's 421 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: a huge argument in the whole um problem of consciousness debate. 422 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: Uh for those of you don't remember, his whole thing 423 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: is that we're looking at We can look at it bad. 424 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: We can see how a bat's mind works. We can 425 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: we can we form all these theories and create an 426 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: understanding of how the bat experiences the world around it. 427 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: But we can never really know what it's like to 428 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: be a bat. We can never line up our experience 429 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: of the world, our consciousness with with with that bat 430 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: level of consciousness. Yeah, philosopher Bertrand for us all said 431 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: this about seventy years ago or so. He said, we 432 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: know nothing about the intrinsic quality of physical events except 433 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: when these are mental events that we directly experience. Right, 434 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: so we can we can look at the bat and 435 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 1: all of its glory. But until we can you know, 436 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: physically embody this and mentally embody the bat, we don't 437 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: know what the deal is with the bat. Yeah, Nagel said, 438 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: But fundamentally, an organism has conscious mental states if and 439 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: only if there is something that it is to be 440 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: that organism, something it is like for the organism. So 441 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: he head spinning even just reading that. You know, Okay, 442 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: so yeah, let's let's let's gather in all of these threads. 443 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: What are we starting to uh sort of story starting 444 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: to weave here? The limits of understanding, yes, limits, And 445 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: that's where Colin McGain comes back into a British philosopher. Um. 446 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: He was on the panel at World Science and he 447 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: kept him, him and Christoph Cock. They were the ones 448 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: to Really they kept going at each other, uh in 449 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: in a fun way, in a very academic debate kind 450 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: of way, because both of them were were rock solid 451 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: on their their their views and their their opinions of 452 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: the world. Ones and neuroscientists, Ones a philosopher and uh 453 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: And it was a fabulous interaction. You can catch that 454 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: whole discussion online. Is that the one where McGann is 455 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: trying to really pin down Hawk on whether or not 456 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: he's a reductionist or and like Hawk is like, no, 457 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 1: don't try to label me. Yeah, yeah, and then he 458 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: kept saying I'm really, I'm really surprised you're actually a 459 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: do list and uh and yeah. That they kept kind 460 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: of picking each other. It was it was wonderful to 461 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: bold Um. And that's the great thing about the World 462 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: Science festivals. They'll put these panels will have people of 463 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: different disciplines on there. So it's not just a panel 464 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: of physicists talking about a topic or um neuroscientists talking 465 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: about a topic. There's a you know, a theologian or 466 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: in this case, a philosopher or two to spice things up. 467 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: So call them again. Is the most prominent of the 468 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: new mysterians. Um and uh, the new mysterian argument is 469 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: essentially that the the brain cannot conceive the natural coexistence 470 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: of mind and brain. And it's not that we're really 471 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: necessarily that we're dumb. It's not like that we're just 472 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 1: too stupid for this, but we've only evolved to carry 473 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: out certain cognitive feats. Okay, so we can navigate a 474 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: changing world. We can, we can do all of these 475 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: things that we mentioned in the the the easy problems 476 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: of consciousness. You know, we can. We can deal with 477 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,439 Speaker 1: all this sense data and make sense of it. But 478 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 1: what is the possible evolutionary advantage of of gaining an 479 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: advanced understanding of the nature of consciousness? Of like, what 480 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 1: is the evolution very advantage to solving the mind body problem? 481 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: So he's saying this lines up really closely with the concept, 482 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: the philosophical concept of cognitive closure, that humans can only 483 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: hope to understand certain aspects of the universe, and we 484 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: simply lack the brains to understand everything. So you and 485 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: I were talking earlier, and I mentioned that perhaps this 486 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: is just me, you know, sitting here gobbledygooking, but perhaps philosophizing. No, 487 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: I think gobbledygooking with the capital g uh that perhaps 488 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: the reason why we have these limits is we can't 489 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 1: go beyond and really figure out what consciousness is and 490 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: pin it down is because it really is only helpful 491 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: to us in the context of theory of mind. And 492 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: we've talked about theory of mind, is is disability to 493 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 1: not just occupy our own perspective, but to occupy other 494 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: people's perspective, like me trying to figure out how Julie thinks, 495 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: or how Noel thinks, or how Bad thinks. Yeah, you 496 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: can't have one without the other. You have to have 497 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: a self awareness another in order to be aware of others. 498 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: So from an evolutionary perspective, perhaps there are limits to that, 499 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: to the understanding. You know, perhaps there's this sort of 500 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: line where it's like, okay, and now it's not useful 501 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: to us anymore. Yeah, it's it's one of those things 502 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: that on one level it does. It rings kind of 503 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: true to me, you know where, and I think it 504 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,479 Speaker 1: rings more and more true with our our modern world, 505 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: you know, like you go back. Uh. I love looking 506 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: at the like retrofuturist stuff and looking at our our 507 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: our ideas about what the future would be like safe 508 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: in the fifties, sixties and seventies and eighties. Uh, and 509 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 1: now we're a lot were for the most part, we're 510 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: a little more limited and what we dare to dream 511 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: uh for ourselves in the future. Uh. And a lot 512 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: of that is realizing that there are limits, and if 513 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: if there are not hard and fast limits, then there 514 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: at least limitations on how quickly we can advance and 515 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: how quickly and into what extent we can will ourselves 516 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: to move forward. So that lines up really closely with 517 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: I can feel like how Ris arreencing the world and 518 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: how it's matching up with our dreams of where we 519 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: would be. But then uh, it's also something that Christoph 520 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: Cock was very strongly opposed to the idea during the talk, 521 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: and he said, this is just a featist, you know, 522 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: and because it does go right completely against the can 523 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 1: do attitude of science, the idea that like, yes, we're 524 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: gonna study this and we're gonna we're gonna buy God 525 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: figure it out. And then along comes the new mysterion 526 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: to say, ah, there's some things we'll never figure out. 527 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: Go home, you know, Okay, So which brings to this 528 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: to the table, this conversation about these brain projects the 529 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: reverse engineering of the brain. So if we're going to 530 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: try to move forward with us and try to understand 531 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: what the brain is, what the mind is, and where 532 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: consciousness ultimately sits in there, then hey, can't we just 533 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: throw a supercomputer at it? Right? Yeah? This is this 534 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: is an important topic to discuss because, uh, cognitive closure 535 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, you know, the idea that we can only 536 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: hope to understand so much. One of the things that 537 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: stands outside of cognitive closure is the steady of accumulation 538 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: and preservation of scientific data over the course of human history. 539 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: And in this I love to get a little um 540 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: fantastic with the with my imaginings of this, but I 541 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: tend to think of like science as this kind of 542 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: super intellect that we're building outside of ourselves. It's not 543 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: limited by the capacity of a single human mind or 544 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: even a dozen human minds. It's not limited by the 545 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: lifespan of an individual or even though the lifespans of 546 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: whole cultures. It stands outside of that, it grows larger 547 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: and larger. It's like the Internet itself, and the Internet 548 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: is a part of it, and it's becoming this kind 549 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: of super intellect. So it's this collective data of both 550 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: humans and machine, right, and it's affected by our own 551 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: cognitive closure, but it's not limited by cognitive closure. So 552 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: the idea is that you could get enough data here 553 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: going right, you could study the human brain. You could 554 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: try to have the supercomputer take every data point it 555 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: could and string together some sort of understanding of how 556 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: the brain actually works. And I say actually, because honestly, 557 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: we're at a point right out that neuroscience is still 558 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: very like this is a very young field. Yeah. I know. 559 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: Every day, especially if you follow any science feeds out there, 560 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: including our own, it's like they're always some sort of 561 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: new exciting bit of neuroscience coming out, and we talked 562 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: about a lot of them here. But and so it's 563 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: easy to fall into the trap of thinking that we 564 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: are we are much closer to a full understanding than 565 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: we are. Yeah. And so even if you could produce 566 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: the data by the machines into something we talked about earlier, 567 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily mean that our mind, in its limited understanding, 568 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: could recognize the pattern that emerges. Right. It's like we 569 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: we create this this genie of science that stands outside 570 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: of ourselves, and then it reaches the point where it 571 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: can say, hey, I figured out that whole consciousness thing 572 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: for you, let me explain it to you, and then 573 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: it explains it to us, and we still have the 574 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: cognitive closure in place to where we still can't understand 575 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: what the the explanation is. So I wanted to bring 576 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: John Horgen into the conversation. Um. He is a writer 577 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: for Scientific and he has a blog called cross Check. 578 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: And he wouldn't, I don't think, paint himself as a 579 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: new mysterian, but he brings some very interesting arguments into 580 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: the limits of our understanding vs. The these brain projects. Yes, 581 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: and you mentioned Henry Markham earlier, the head guy at 582 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: the Blue Brain Project, and uh and Horgan was was 583 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: quite critical this gentleman. Yeah, he made the point of 584 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: well Markham actually he read a couple of Horgan's blog 585 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: because this is such likes this science gossip, the contents 586 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: he's founded in the comments and basically saying like, I 587 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: think there's something like the lack of vision basically on 588 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: Horgan's park. And Horgan said, well, I'm going to take 589 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: some of the comments that you made about another brain project, 590 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: like a mouse brain project, I believe, Yeah, and saying 591 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: that it wasn't doable, and then you know, but now 592 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: you're sort of heralding this brain project is being the 593 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: end all be all, this sort of like, can we 594 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: get to the unified theory of the brain, And so 595 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: Horrigan says, look, we you know, neuroscientists can't mimic brains 596 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: because they lack basic understanding of how the brains work 597 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: or how the brain works, and they don't know what 598 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: to include in the simulation and what to leave out. 599 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: In other words, he's saying that the neural code that 600 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: they're trying to figure out, they don't even have the 601 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: basic understandings to figure out what that code might consist of. 602 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: And so he's saying, you can't say that this is 603 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: an Apple's apples thing when it comes to like the 604 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: Brain project or the Human Genome project, because he's saying 605 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: that when the Human Genome Project began, uh, there was 606 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: already a basic understanding of genetics, and the genetic code 607 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: had already been deciphered, so they could make some real progress. 608 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: But he's saying, look, you have all sorts of factors 609 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: here that affect the brain. You have neural transmitters, hormones, 610 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: neural growth factors, chemicals, um. He says that there are 611 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: neurons that display a dizzing variety of forms and functions, 612 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: and that researchers have discovered scores of distinct types of 613 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: neurons just in the visual system. So he's basically saying, 614 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: if we don't know all the components yet, well, we 615 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: know the components, but we don't know necessarily how they operate, 616 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: then how can you reverse engineers something like that? Yeah, 617 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: he made a fabulous comparison Horgen did, comparing it to 618 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: the cargo cults um South Pacific, the Milanesian cults, where 619 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: the idea, of course is that they would see planes 620 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: flying over during the Second World War and they were 621 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: inspired by them, you know, supposedly they thought they these 622 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: were wholly magical things, and so they created versions of 623 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: them themselves. They created models out of out of you know, 624 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: straw materials and what have you around them, and they 625 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: could create, of course, the form of an airplane, the 626 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: shape of an airplane. They're understanding their model of what 627 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: an airplane is. But they couldn't take often and it 628 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: didn't fly. The function of it was was was not present. 629 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: So they could create a model, but not a working model. 630 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: They could create a model based on their limited understanding 631 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: of the thing. Now this is this is highly critical, right, 632 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: but there's some I think that there's some weight to 633 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: what he is saying is like, you know, this could 634 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: be premature and trying to do into reverse engineer the brain. 635 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: And he brought up neuroscientist Donald Stein the University of 636 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,760 Speaker 1: Excuse Memory University, and in saying that they're completely ignoring 637 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: multiple levels of the brain. And we're talking about the 638 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: glial cells, and you and I talked about the glial 639 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 1: cells at length, and when we are talking about what 640 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: makes genius genius? Right, because the more white matter, the 641 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 1: more glial cells that you have. It's a great word 642 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 1: to just to say it sounds like something the nuttie 643 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: professor would would belt out glial cells, um, but sort 644 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: of this fiber optic system that can transport things really quickly. 645 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: Like the more you have that, the quicker you can 646 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: think and the quicker you can put together ideas. So 647 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: he's saying like this just is so nuanced, so complex, 648 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: you know, how can you really get to where you 649 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: need to go? And on top of that, there's the 650 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: microbiome and this is something we've talked about too. This 651 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: is this idea that we are colonized by microbial cells, 652 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: bacterial cells, and they are affecting our brain. And we 653 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: talked about this in the podcast about the gut being 654 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: in the second brain, because those microbial cells can determine 655 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,439 Speaker 1: what sort of level of anxiety you're experiencing, um all 656 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: sorts of mental states, and even your immune system which 657 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: can dictate you know, neurological disorders. So it's just a yeah, 658 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 1: it brings us right back. There's a whole mind body 659 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,959 Speaker 1: problem that we've talked not to buy mind body problem 660 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: of the mind body connection, the whole centaur thing where 661 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 1: we're not a rider on a horse, but we're a 662 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: ride er fused with horse. And so anytime you if 663 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: you really try to think of the brain cut off 664 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: on its own, you're not getting the full picture of 665 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: the organism. So yeah, like you say, it just gets 666 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: more and more complex the closer you look. Yeah, and 667 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: then sometimes I do. I think the problem of consciousness 668 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: is again it's subjective, and how do we all even 669 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: define it for ourselves? So even just pinning down exactly 670 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: what that is the hard problem, right The experience is 671 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 1: sort of the first part of trying to figure it 672 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: out or reverse engineering consciousness. Yet, like, are there are 673 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: there truly varying levels of consciousness among humans? You know, 674 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: because we getting into the realm of of of of 675 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: theology and New Ages and and Buddhist philosophy, you get 676 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: into the ideas that their individuals that higher states of consciousness. 677 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: You know, like someone who has achieved buddhahood is at 678 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: a different level of consciousness than than just somebody that's 679 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: completely lost in their thoughts. Someone who can say, Hey, 680 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: I'm feeling angry right now? Why am I feeling angry? 681 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 1: Is at a different level of consciousness than someone that 682 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: is simply angry or someone who is dreaming in their 683 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: angry right because they're in a they're sort of in 684 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: that wound sedative uh, quality of being. Right, So how 685 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: aware can you mean when you're dreaming? Yeah? And is 686 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: it possible for there to be some sort of a 687 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,439 Speaker 1: super consciousness as well? And when will the Internet become 688 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: self aware? Exactly? When when could the the Internet becomes 689 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: the super consciousness? Again, this idea of we build all 690 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: this science and then it eventually becomes the genie that 691 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: we can ask this ever towering question about the nature 692 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: of consciousness. At what point does it become that that 693 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: that living genie, that that that just powerful intellect that 694 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: we can quiz about this stuff. And at what point 695 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,439 Speaker 1: does it recognize that we can't even understand the data 696 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: that it's giving us and say, oh, man, so maybe 697 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: it just play gates as at that points and says, oh, well, 698 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,879 Speaker 1: you'll you know, it's a I don't even know. I'm 699 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: not even sure what what the the the answer would be, 700 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: maybe they would just put us off. You're like, I'll 701 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: tell you tomorrow. Banianna, Banianna. Maybe the super unelect at 702 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 1: this point, I mean, essentially becomes God. Okay, So if 703 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: you're looking for a center, the seat of consciousness, you 704 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: could say that you're looking for a cohesive thing being 705 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: and that in some ways you're trying to cast off 706 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: entropy and cling to this idea that there's some sort 707 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: of stability a k A God the center. Right. So, 708 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: in some as I do think that this search for 709 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:07,479 Speaker 1: consciousness is a bit of a red herring because these things, 710 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: this is a construct, and it's not it will always 711 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: be abstract. You're not going to be able to find 712 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: it in the concrete. So there you have it. The 713 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 1: quest to understand human consciousness. New Mysteriani is um and 714 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: I should point out that, you know, we're talking about 715 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,720 Speaker 1: like building an imperfect model of something, but obviously building 716 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: imperfect models that's on the road to figuring out how 717 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 1: something works. And you look back through the history of 718 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: science and science is filled with imperfect understandings and imperfect models, 719 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: but those lead to two more perfected versions, like science 720 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: is often wrong, but science is not a solid state. 721 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: Science is a movement towards understanding. Yeah, And don't get 722 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: me wrong, I am very excited by these brain projects. 723 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 1: And I would love to have, you know, be able 724 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,800 Speaker 1: to dump my brain into a machine and having a 725 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: nice little backup. That would be great. I think that 726 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 1: there's all sorts of really cool implications of this, but 727 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:06,479 Speaker 1: in the context of the hard problem and um and 728 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: and as starting point to try to figure out what 729 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: we don't quite understand, you know, it's it's a valid conversation. Yeah, 730 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: And I also don't want to miscategorize Colin McGinn's new 731 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 1: mysterianism approach. He's not saying that we cannot understand the stuff. 732 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: He's just he's saying we should, uh, we should have 733 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 1: our minds open to that possibility. All right, Well, um, 734 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: consciousness it's the really the closest thing to us and 735 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: also the most mysterious. Uh. And of course someone could 736 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,959 Speaker 1: say people have said the very same thing about God. 737 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: So there you got more connection between the quest for 738 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 1: understanding consciousness and the quest h to touch the face 739 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,280 Speaker 1: of God. Right there. So since it's that close to everyone, 740 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 1: I'm sure everyone has some thoughts on this particular topic 741 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: and we would love to hear them. Uh, tell us 742 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: how you perceive your own consciouness. How do you perceive 743 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: consciouness around you? Do you buy into this new mysterianism 744 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: or or the the cognitive closure or do you do 745 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: you really think can do it? You think it's just 746 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 1: a matter of time before we do crack that nut? 747 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: Or do we have to create the genie to crack 748 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: it for us and then we find it inedible? Anyway, 749 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: let us know. You can find us online a number 750 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: of different places. Of course, we're all over the social media. 751 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: We're on Twitter, we're on what d plus, We're on 752 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: uh tumbler, We're on Facebook. We're also on YouTube. That's 753 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: where our videos are at mind Stuff Show on YouTube 754 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: and then also the mothership, the main website, stuff to 755 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind dot com and you can always stop 756 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: us a line let us know your thoughts at blow 757 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 1: the Mind at Discovery dot com. For more on this 758 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,399 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, is it How stuff Works 759 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: dot com