1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 2: This is a breaking news update from Bloomberg instant reaction 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 2: and analysis from our three thousand journalists and analysts around 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 2: the world. 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 3: US Supreme Court struck down President Donald Trump sweeping global tariffs, 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 3: undercutting his signature economic policy and delivering his biggest legal 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 3: defeat since he returned to the White House. Tyler Kendall, 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 3: Bloomberg News White House correspondent joins his hair Washington correspondent. 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 3: Tyler give us the latest on what we know about 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 3: this Supreme Court ruling. 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 4: So it appears that the Court, in a six to 12 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 4: three decision struck down President Trump's tariffs, those broad based 13 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 4: ones that have to do with IIPA, the International Emergency 14 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 4: Economic Powers Act. President put forward IIPA tariffs on two accounts. 15 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 4: One was those ventanyl related tariffs related to Canada, Mexico, 16 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 4: and in part on China. And then the other were 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 4: the more broad based ones where he cited persistent trade imbalances. 18 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 4: Now we're still going through this cases coming in in 19 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 4: real time right now to figure out the two questions 20 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 4: that were in front of the court. One was does 21 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 4: President Trump actually have the authority to invoke AIPA to 22 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 4: impose tariffs, because this has never been done before. This 23 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 4: is typically a federal authority that is used to invoke sanctions. 24 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 4: So the question here is whether or not he circumvented Congress. 25 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 4: The other question was about whether or not he actually 26 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 4: invoked AIPA correctly if he's able to by declaring these 27 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 4: national emergencies, did those national emergencies related to betanal related 28 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 4: to these trade imbalances reached a legal standard of what 29 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 4: is known as an unusual and extraordinary threat, that the 30 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 4: president would have this authority to impose a tariff a 31 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 4: regulation of commerce in this way to achieve his objection, 32 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 4: his objectives. We're still reading through this, but it appears 33 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 4: that we have one at least dissenting opinion was from Cavanaugh, 34 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 4: of course, a Justice Brett Kavanaugh, who was appointed under 35 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 4: nominated under President Trump, who says, quote, the court says 36 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 4: nothing today about whether and if so, how the government 37 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 4: should go about returning the billions of dollars that it 38 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 4: has collected from importers. But that process is likely to 39 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 4: be a mess, as was acknowledged at oral arguments. So 40 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 4: that's going to be the entire next phase of this. 41 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 5: It doesn't seem to matter to investors, at least for 42 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 5: the moment. You look at the S and P five hundred. 43 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 5: It did shoot up, it's come back a little bit. 44 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 5: But what's notable here, Paul, is that the best performing 45 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 5: group among twenty four groups is a consumer durable and 46 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 5: apparel's group, lul Lemon, for instance, jumping about five percent 47 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 5: right at the open. It's pared some of that advance 48 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 5: to two point four percent. Lululemon, along with other companies 49 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 5: presumably hurt by this by these tariffs, would benefit therefore 50 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 5: with the removal of these tariffs, although as Tyler made clear, 51 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 5: it's not clear whether there would be a refund or 52 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 5: how that would even be put together. 53 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm just kind of reading some of the 54 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 3: Bloomberg headlines. Supreme Court does not address eligibility for tariff refunds, 55 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 3: and Bloomberg new is also reporting that hundreds of teriff 56 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: refund lawsuits pending in US Trade Court. So Tyler, this 57 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 3: seems like that's where the rubber meets the road. To 58 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 3: the extent that anybody's going to try to get a 59 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 3: tariff relief or tariff refunds, it's not going to be 60 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 3: easy at least at this stage. 61 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 4: Well, if you want to hear a pretty startling statistic, 62 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 4: AIPA terraffs have been collected for more than three hundred 63 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 4: and one thousand importers, and every company that wants a 64 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 4: refund would need a distinct claim in court. Perhaps we'll 65 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 4: likely see a class action lawsuit that could maybe put 66 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 4: this a little bit more broad based. But when we're 67 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 4: looking at just a massive amount of revenue that was 68 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 4: raised by these IEPA tariffs alone. Of course, the Trump 69 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 4: administration has other tariff authorities that are already in place 70 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 4: Section two thirty two related to national security, for example, 71 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 4: those AIPA broad based tariffs brought in last year more 72 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 4: than one hundred and thirty four billion dollars for the 73 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 4: US government. So it's going to be a complicated process. 74 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 4: It likely would leave the question of refunds to a 75 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 4: lower court, most likely the Court of International Trade, which 76 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 4: first took up this case. There's a few different wonky 77 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 4: points that I had written down here on how this 78 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 4: could ultimately end up happening. One thing to know is 79 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 4: that there's something known as the liquidation process, which basically 80 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 4: is the statue of limitation that a company can ask 81 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 4: for its money back. That's three hundred and fourteen days. 82 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 4: So some of those tariffs imposed on China have actually 83 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 4: been imposed longer than that, so those companies wantn't get 84 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 4: those back. But by and large, I think we're still 85 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 4: within that timeframe for these companies to ask for those requests. 86 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,679 Speaker 5: And just the quick mention equities building on their advance 87 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 5: a little bit. With the SMP five hundred now up 88 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 5: a third of one percent, Treasury yields are higher, and 89 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 5: the thinking is that the removal of tariffs would leave 90 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 5: a budget hole that we know already surprise the hundred 91 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 5: thirty billion dollars as of December. Treasury would need to 92 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 5: sell a lot more bonds to bridge the gap, and 93 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 5: that would put some pressure on yields upward pressure and 94 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 5: of course if there are reefusts as part of it, 95 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 5: that would only make the situation worse. It would exacerbate 96 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 5: these moves. 97 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,239 Speaker 3: So I guess, Tyler, there's still opportunities. There are still 98 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 3: tools that the president can use to apply some tariffs, 99 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 3: even if this IEPA sweeping one is no longer on. 100 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 4: The table, right and we've already heard telegraphed from the 101 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 4: administration that they're going to pull on these other federal authorities, 102 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 4: some of them are already in place. We talk a 103 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 4: lot about Section two thirty two, those National security tariffs 104 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 4: that the administration has put forward on some of those 105 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 4: critical sectors steel, aluminum, of critical minerals, and a lot 106 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 4: of those other areas that have been a focus of 107 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 4: the Trump administration. When it comes to countering China. We 108 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 4: could also see Section three oh one investigations that's over 109 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 4: unfair trade practices. We saw a lot of those imposed 110 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 4: on China under the first Trump administration. Think allegations of 111 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 4: IP protection violations as one example. And then there's some 112 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 4: lesser known ones like Section three point thirty eight that 113 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 4: hasn't been used since the nineteen forties. I also have 114 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 4: Section two on one here tariffs imposed on goods that 115 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 4: cause injury to domestic industry. There's a lot, But basically 116 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 4: the crux to think of this is that the Trump 117 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 4: administration likes IEPA because that's a lot more flexible, it's 118 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 4: a lot more broad based. A lot of these tariffs 119 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 4: have limits. They have to go away after a certain 120 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 4: amount of time, and the rates can't go that high. 121 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 4: A lot of these tariffs have a fifteen percent sealing 122 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,679 Speaker 4: for example, whereas we know the president in some cases 123 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 4: has threaten tariffs you know, fifty percent and onwards. 124 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 5: And also all the different sections that you cited. Most 125 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 5: of these tariffs can't be imposed instantly. There's a bit 126 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 5: of waiting time, and we know the president wants to 127 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 5: declare something and have it kind of be in effect 128 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 5: almost immediately, and the IEPA tariffs allowed him that flexibility. 129 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 4: As you put it, exactly, a Section two thirty two 130 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 4: investigation on average nine months to complete. We have seen 131 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 4: this administration in some cases do this under a more 132 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 4: expedited timeline because they actually pulled on investigations that were 133 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,679 Speaker 4: launched under the first Trump administration, so they were able 134 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 4: to make the legal argument that they already had such 135 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 4: a bolstering of the information behind them that they could 136 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 4: make the determination that this meets the national security concerns 137 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 4: or the unfair trade allegations to put on their terrafts. 138 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 4: But to your point exactly, Scarlett, this definitely limits the 139 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 4: flexibility of the administration. 140 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 6: Tyler, thank you so much. 141 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 5: And it's just our luck that Tyler Kendall happened to 142 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 5: be a new. 143 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 6: Clearly, she was not anticipating this. 144 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 5: I mean, we knew that this decision was coming along 145 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 5: at some point, but the Supreme Court had passed up 146 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 5: the previous two or three instances could have come out 147 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 5: with this decision. Tyler Kendall, Bloomberg's Washington correspondent, on our 148 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 5: way back to DC this afternoon. 149 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 6: Thank you so much. Thank you. 150 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 3: All right, let's go to Judie Grossel right now, Bloomberg 151 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 3: Walls host. She joins us here in studio June. I 152 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 3: guess this was expected from somewhat expected from a legal perspective. 153 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 6: Does the six to three. 154 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 3: Vote, does that mean anything one way or the other, 155 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 3: as opposed to maybe have a unanimous nine zero. 156 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 7: Well, I mean, I guess. 157 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 8: It would be preferable for the people in the majority, 158 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 8: for the justices and the majority to say, you know, 159 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 8: this was a unanimous vote, but otherwise, you know, it 160 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 8: doesn't really matter. It's sixty three with the very conservative justices. 161 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 6: In the minority. I mean, this was expected. 162 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 8: After the Supreme Court oral arguments, it seemed as if 163 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 8: this was the definite conclusion, and so people were wondering, 164 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 8: what was taking so long? 165 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 6: Well, what's taking so long? 166 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 8: As it's one hundred and seventy pages, so it's kind 167 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 8: of difficult to get through and to figure out exactly 168 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 8: what happened. 169 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 6: But what happened during the oral arguments was that you. 170 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 8: Have this statute, AEPA that no other president has used 171 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 8: to impose tariffs. And under this statute there's a word 172 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 8: call regulate. So how do you interpret regulate? Does that 173 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 8: mean you can impose tariffs or not? And you know, 174 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 8: a lot of the justices, particularly the liberal Justice, is 175 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 8: harped on the language of the statute. 176 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 6: What does it mean? 177 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 8: I mean, this is a court that's originalist, and they're 178 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 8: trying to interpret all the time with the words of 179 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 8: a statute or the words of a constitution means. So 180 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 8: they were looking at this and saying, you know, where 181 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 8: do you get the authority in this statute to impose tariffs? 182 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 6: And it was pretty. 183 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 8: Obvious during their oral arguments that there were enough votes, 184 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 8: particularly the Chief Justice. And the Chief Justice wrote this opinion. 185 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 8: And I'll just note that when I predicted that, because 186 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 8: whenever there's a big opinion that he's in in the center, 187 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 8: he writes it. He wrote the you know, the Supreme 188 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 8: Court opinion giving President Trump limited presidential authority to be 189 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 8: let's say to be I'm trying to think of the 190 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 8: right word. Not to be prosecuted for ax committed criminal 191 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 8: acts committed in office. 192 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 6: He wrote that one. 193 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 8: He's written like all the very very big opinions. So 194 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 8: when we heard what he said in the oral arguments, 195 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 8: it was pretty obvious what was going to happen. And 196 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 8: it's just a question of why it took so long. 197 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 8: And I think Justice Jackson had said last week that 198 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 8: in an interview that there are nuances to this so 199 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 8: and we won't be able to see the nuances until. 200 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 6: We get through some of this. Yes, pages one hundred 201 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 6: and seventy pages. 202 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 8: It's I mean, there are concurrences and partial concurrences. It's 203 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 8: it's really it's messy. I'd say it's messy. 204 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 5: And that's exactly how Brett Kavanaugh, the one of the 205 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 5: dissenting justices, described the refund process. It was likely to 206 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 5: be a mess, as was acknowledged at oral argument. Is 207 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 5: it surprising then that the justices did not address the 208 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 5: extent to which importers are entitled to refunds That it's 209 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 5: just basically it back to the lower courts. 210 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 8: Well, I think what the justices try to do is 211 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 8: write as narrow an opinion as they possibly can. So 212 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 8: why get into an area they really don't have to 213 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 8: get into. And as you say, there's a lot of 214 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 8: you know, it's going to be messy. And so I 215 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 8: think that that's the way this court operates. They don't 216 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 8: want to rule on something that they don't have to 217 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 8: rule on. And here they did a ruling on tariffs. 218 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 8: You know, a week before the President is going to 219 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 8: make his State of the Union address. That's why I 220 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 8: didn't think it was going to come down today. We 221 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 8: were talking about in the newsroom and like, why would 222 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 8: they do that? And then they're going to sit there. 223 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 8: Is he going to say something about it? He probably 224 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 8: will say something about it while they're sitting there. A 225 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 8: lot of them will be sitting there. The Chief always goes, 226 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:43,719 Speaker 8: so they'll be. 227 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 6: At the State of the Union. 228 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 8: The Chief always goes, Elena Kagan goes usually sort of 229 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 8: mayor goes. Alito hasn't gone since Barack Obama said something 230 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 8: about Citizens United and Alito was shaking his head back 231 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 8: and forth. 232 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 6: So he hasn't been there. But maybe he'll be there 233 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 6: for this. I don't know. So and Justice cours. 234 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 8: It has gone Justice Kavanaugh, Amy Coney, Barrett, so a 235 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 8: lot of them do go. So it'll be interesting to 236 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 8: watch and to see whether any statements are made from 237 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 8: the President about that and whether there's any shaking of heads. 238 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 6: So I was wrong about that, and I admit it. 239 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 8: So this came as a surprise this morning, even though 240 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 8: the decision itself what they did didn't come as a surprise. 241 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 9: Yeah. 242 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 5: If anything, this makes the State of the Union address 243 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 5: that much more interesting to see how it all shakes 244 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 5: out the body language, not just what President Trump will say, 245 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 5: because I'm sure he'll probably say something even before his 246 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 5: address next week. 247 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 6: Yep. 248 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 3: Absolutely, we'll certainly given this. 249 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 5: This the signature economic policy that he has really defined 250 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 5: his administration. 251 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 8: He's been talking about how the Supreme Court, I mean 252 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 8: several times he said the Supreme Court has to rule 253 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 8: in the right way on this. So and he's always 254 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 8: bit well because they've been ruling so much in his 255 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 8: favor on the emergency ducket. He's been very complimentary about 256 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 8: the Court. But we'll see what happens. 257 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 4: II. 258 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 6: Dad, that's going to last all right. 259 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 3: We'll stay on top of the President's social media output 260 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 3: here today, jun Grassa, thank you so much. We appreciated 261 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 3: Jean Grasso, a Bloomberg Law host, here, joining us here 262 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 3: for this momentous decision. Here, the US Supreme Court struck 263 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 3: down President Donald Trump's sweeping global tarrits, undercutting his significant 264 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 3: economic policy and delivering his biggest legal defeat since he 265 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 3: returned to the White House. That is, according to Bloomberg 266 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 3: reporting Scarla Fu and Paul Swooney live here in our 267 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 3: Bloomberg Interactive Broker studio. I'm looking at the top live again. 268 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 3: Great great reporting, real time on this breaking story. Sean 269 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 3: don and senior economics writer. He writes, it's not overstating 270 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 3: things to say this is a historic decision that applies 271 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 3: on at least two fronts. Number One, the policy at issue, 272 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 3: Trump's increase in tarists last year was the largest. It's 273 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 3: the infamous nineteen thirty Smoot Hawley duties. Number Two, it's 274 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 3: application the presidential powers over the economy. Scholars and the 275 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 3: lead up were calling this the biggest case inconomic policy 276 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 3: realm since the Youngstown steelcase in nineteen fifty two, in 277 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 3: which is the court block Harry Truman's been to nationalized 278 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 3: steel mills during the Korean War. Others have liken the 279 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 3: idea of Supreme Court rebrooking Trump on tariffs to the 280 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 3: Court's fight with FDR over the New Deal, So. 281 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 6: A lot of historical contexts. 282 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 5: There are certainly a huge landmark decision by the Supreme 283 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 5: Court determining that President Trump's global tariffs are illegal. 284 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 6: Let's bring in Henrietta Trees. 285 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 5: Henrietta is our go to expert on all things policy 286 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 5: and economics. She is a managing partner and director of 287 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 5: Economic Policy at Vetta Partners. Henrietta the market had largely 288 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 5: anticipated this. We saw it with the reaction in certain 289 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 5: retail stocks, companies that would benefit from the rollback of 290 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 5: these tariffs. 291 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 6: How are you looking at this? 292 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: I agree, this is just a tremendous day, a huge 293 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: win for the Constitution, for folks who cover tax policy, 294 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: for anybody who remembers the Revolutionary War fought against specifically 295 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: a taxation power that Congress did not have any say over. 296 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: So this is, in my opinion, the largest and most 297 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: impactful macroeconomic ruling the courts have ever delivered. So just 298 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: a tremendous day. It is in line with what the 299 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: market was expecting. You could see that investors were very 300 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: prepared to rip the retail stocks. Everybody who's been exposed 301 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: to the forty percent trans shipping tariffs, the ad hoc 302 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: fifty percent tariffs on Brazil, the wide ranging threats of 303 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: two hundred percent tariffs on French wine that have just 304 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: been spewing out of the White House for twelve months now. 305 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: So it's really an exhilarating day, an incredible day for 306 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: the Constitution. 307 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 3: In my opinion, Henriette, is this do you think in 308 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 3: bolden any of President Trump's adversaries, whether in Congress or 309 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 3: just within Washington d c. Apparatus, that maybe this gives 310 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 3: them a little bit more confidence to push back. Is 311 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 3: there any reason to believe that. 312 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think there's two ways to look at this. 313 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: First of all, this is such news for President Trump. 314 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: Americans hate the tariffs. They know their taxes, they know 315 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: that they're driving inflation, and they don't like them. So 316 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: now that that authority has been stripped away from him, 317 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: the president no longer has to collect these taxes. 318 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 7: It's up to him to decide. 319 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: Whether he wants to migrate into new and different authorities 320 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: like Section one twenty two that give him the ability 321 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: to impose tires at a fifteen percent rate for the 322 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: next five months. 323 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 7: If he wants to do that, he can go ahead on. 324 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: But the American public will be very grateful that the 325 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: Supreme Court struck these tires down, and even more grateful 326 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: if he keeps them off. 327 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 7: So that's one way of looking at it. 328 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: And Republicans on Capitol Hail are staring down the barrel 329 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: of a very ugly affordability narrative election cycle where we've 330 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: seen races as diverse as Texas swing thirty one points 331 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: away from President Trump just since he was elected. 332 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 7: Those are tremendous. 333 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: Losses for the Republican conference, and most of it is 334 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: driven by the President's handling of the US economy. It's 335 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: influenced not just the traditional pendant voter that we are 336 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: always concerned with, but also with young male and Hispanic 337 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: voters who have driven the President to his second term. 338 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 7: So a lot to see here. 339 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 5: A lot to see here. And it's not just American 340 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 5: stocks that are benefiting. I'm looking at for instance, LVMH 341 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 5: Hennessey in Europe climbing on the news, up four point 342 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 5: four percent in European trading. So companies that rely on 343 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 5: exports to the US also benefiting from this ruling. Paul 344 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 5: asks a really important question Henrietta bas. 345 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 6: It's very basic. Our temps rolled back starting today. 346 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 7: They are legal so at border patrol. 347 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: One of the things that's questionable here is that the 348 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: White House has said all these trade deals are still. 349 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 7: Going to be intact. You know, we've signed these agreements. 350 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 7: That is null and void. 351 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: Now if you are an importer and you are at 352 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: Customs and Border Patrol, you no longer will suffer paying 353 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: for these tariffs. And the Supreme Court has told Customs 354 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: and Border Patrol they can no longer collect them. So 355 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: this is a problem that the White House is going 356 00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: to have to address. They have a number of trade 357 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: deals that they have signed. I believe there's about eight 358 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: at this point, and many of them include a reciprocal 359 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 1: tariff of ten percent in the case of the UK 360 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: or nineteen percent in the case of Indonesia. 361 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 7: Those tariffs are illegal. 362 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: The Supreme Court has telled the Customs and Border Patrol 363 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: people this. 364 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 7: Authority is not permitted. 365 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: So it's the importers who are going to rise up 366 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: and say I'm not paying. It doesn't matter what the 367 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: countries you know, independently decide or whatever the White House does. 368 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 3: So what do we expect this administration? How do you 369 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 3: expect the President and administration to respond here? Do you 370 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 3: think they will aggressively try to work other tariff routes 371 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 3: or maybe just let this issue die and just fade away. 372 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 7: I appreciate the question, Paul. I am widely, wildly out 373 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 7: of consensus on this. 374 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: But what I just astrived on Section one twenty two 375 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: is just one of the many alternates and alternatives that 376 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: the president has Section three oh one, which is, you know, 377 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: four hundred and fifty billion dollars worth of tires on China. 378 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 7: We could re up that and apply it to the EU, the. 379 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: UK, or Brazil. Well, all of those have been threatened. 380 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: But think about what functionally that means. It means that 381 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: individual businesses will have to go out again, get their 382 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: trade lawyers on the payroll to comply with brand new, 383 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: potentially even unused authorities that they'll have to comply with 384 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: once again. Is it a fifteen percent tire freight under 385 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: Section one twenty two? 386 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 7: Does it exist? 387 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 9: Now? 388 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 7: When's the President going to put it on? 389 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 1: What do I need to worry about with the national security, taft, 390 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: the confusion, and the uncertainty, which were the buzzwords following 391 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: Liberation Day in April, are going to come roaring back. 392 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: In the event the President decides to migrate away from 393 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: my EPA and move into new and different authorities. I 394 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: think it would be extraordinarily disruptive. And again with my 395 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: eye on the election cycle and then affordability narrative, the 396 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: President I think is already on a very tight leash 397 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: and he's not going to have the leeway to fully 398 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,479 Speaker 1: reimpose anywhere near the revenue that has been collected by 399 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: eepas so far. So I don't think these TIFFs will 400 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: ever come back at their current level, and I think 401 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: will be much more restrained going forward. 402 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 5: How does this all add up to what the President 403 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 5: was planning to say in his State of the Union 404 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 5: next week, because affordability was something that the White House 405 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 5: has signaled it's really going to start focusing on, especially 406 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 5: with the Metrum elections coming up. Now that the tariffs 407 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 5: are ruled illegal by the Supreme Court, how does he 408 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 5: fold that into his larger platform? 409 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: Man, I mean, that is a pretzel of some logic 410 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: they're going to have to work through here. Because, of course, 411 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: the President has been saying that the tariffs have been 412 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,959 Speaker 1: a huge boon to the US economy. None of that 413 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 1: is true. We just saw a very soft GDP print. 414 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: We see that manufacturing jobs have lost seventy two thousand 415 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: in the last year since Liberation Day. We see that 416 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: prices have increased across a lot of the retail space. 417 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,479 Speaker 7: So that's what consumers are feeling. 418 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: And you can't sell the American public on the idea 419 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: that you're fixing our deficit problem when the deficit continues 420 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: to rise and the trade and goods deficit continues to rise. 421 00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: So all of the arguments the White House has made 422 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: are false, and now he's going to have to sell 423 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: this to the American public. I suspect it'll be very 424 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: uncomfortable for the front row of the House floor when 425 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: he delivers the State of the Union on Tuesday. I 426 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: will certainly be watching that. But they really stood up 427 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: for the Constitution here and the President's message. If he 428 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: wants to migrate to affordability, he can talk about other 429 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: things like the housing agenda that they have. I mean, 430 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: it's not realistic to think that a fifty year mortgage 431 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: is coming, but those are the kinds of. 432 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 7: Pieces that he should focus on. 433 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: I imagine there will be quite a bit of grievance 434 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 1: touted on the tirefront. 435 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 8: Interesting. 436 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 3: All right, Henrietta, thank you so much for joining us. 437 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 3: We really appreciate getting a few minutes of your time 438 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 3: and your expertise. Henrietta Trece's managing partner and director of 439 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 3: economic policy at Veda Partners. 440 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 5: We should note that the President has responded. According to 441 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 5: Caitlin Collins of CNN, who tweeted out or posted on 442 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 5: social media, President Trump commented on the Supreme Court ruling 443 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 5: striking down his tariffs while inside the White House breakfast 444 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 5: with governors this morning, calling it a quote disgrace. I'm 445 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 5: told he told those gathered that he has a backup plan. Again. 446 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 5: That is according to Caitlin Collins, reporter at CNN, the 447 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 5: President calling the ruling against his tariffs a disgrace. 448 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 3: Paul, Yeah, no surprise there, and we'll see. I guess 449 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 3: we were talking to Henrietta trez what the response will 450 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 3: be from President Trump, whether he will let this kind 451 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 3: of fade away, or whether he who use some of 452 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 3: the other options that he does. 453 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 5: Have many, many different alternative options, including filing Recession two 454 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 5: thirty two, two oh one, three oh one one two 455 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 5: three thirty eight. 456 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 6: Oh boy, yeah, there's a lot exactly. 457 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 3: All right, we welcome back to our studios, June Grossos, 458 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 3: Bloomberg's legal analyst here, June. Now you've had a couple 459 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 3: more minutes to one hundred seventy page ruling. 460 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 6: Any don't do that to me, Paul, don't do this 461 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 6: to me. 462 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 9: So, I mean, it's it is. 463 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 3: I mean, we're just reading some of the reporting on 464 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 3: the Bloomberg libe really calling in a historic ruling. 465 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 6: It is historic. 466 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 8: And also it's so important because you know, as we've 467 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 8: discussed before, this Supreme Court has been a size for 468 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 8: ruling for Trump on the emergency docket so many times, 469 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 8: I mean a majority of the times, more than the. 470 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 6: Majority, a vast majority of times. 471 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 8: They're just a couple of cases where they didn't allow 472 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 8: him to go forward with his agenda on the emergency dockets. 473 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 8: So here you have this enormous case on his you know, 474 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 8: sweeping global plans. And if the Supreme Court had not 475 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 8: done this, if they had gone against the text of 476 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 8: the statute and had ruled in his favor, think about 477 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 8: what we'd be saying right now, this court is totally 478 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 8: in Trump's pocket, would be one of the things that 479 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 8: would be said. So it's so important on so many 480 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 8: different levels, not only the level of what's going to 481 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 8: happen now and that the tariffs have been declared illegal, 482 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 8: but also for the integrity I think of the Supreme Court. 483 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 8: It would have been shocking if they had ruled for 484 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 8: the tariffs. So joining us now is Dave Townsend. He's 485 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 8: a partner at Dorsey and Whitney, Trade attorney. David, Can 486 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 8: you explain for us the basic premise of the Supreme 487 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 8: Court's majority opinion? 488 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 9: Sure, June, and it's great to be with you. Yeah. 489 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 2: The basic premise of the opinion is that the IEPA Statute, 490 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 2: which empowers the President to take action to regulate importation, 491 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 2: doesn't extend to imposing tariffs, and so as a matter 492 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: of statutory interpretation, the President exceeded the authority in issuing 493 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: the global and fentanyl related tariffs. 494 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 8: Is there anything and I know you haven't gotten through 495 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 8: the whole opinion, but is there anything that surprised you 496 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 8: about this opinion? 497 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 2: One thing that did surprise me a bit, June about 498 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 2: the opinion was how definitive it was with respect to 499 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: the statutory interpretation question. 500 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 9: The lower courts had been maybe a bit more measured. 501 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 2: They had said that the use of the IPA authority 502 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: had exceeded what I was intended to permit, and the 503 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 2: Supreme Court, it looks to me what went one step 504 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 2: further and said that the language of the statue doesn't 505 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 2: permit tarif's full stop. 506 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,719 Speaker 3: So David doesn't what's the sixty three vote mean to you? 507 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 3: If anything is a win a win? Or is a 508 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 3: nine zero better than a six to three? How do 509 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 3: you hashild the market think about that? 510 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean I think a win is a win. 511 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: Right, you only need five to uphold the lower court 512 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 2: and find the tariffs were unlawful. 513 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 9: But I do think the six to three vote. 514 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 2: Provides even, you know, even a sharper defeat here for 515 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,439 Speaker 2: the administration's arguments, I mean. 516 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: You had. 517 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 8: Fine and I know Justice Cavanaugh during the oral arguments 518 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 8: talked a lot about what President Nixon did on the 519 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 8: predecessor statue to AYEPA. Where do they find the authority 520 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 8: of the president to issue these tariffs? 521 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 9: Yeah? 522 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 2: So the predecessor to AEPA was the training with the 523 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 2: Enemies Act Twya, and ac Cordan previously said that the 524 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 2: language in Twya, that is to regulate importation, did authorize 525 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 2: limited tariffs, and so I think the Descent is pointing 526 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 2: back at that and saying, consistent with that holding, we 527 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 2: would find that the same language that Congress used in Twiya, 528 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 2: that carried it over into Iepa would authorize the imposition 529 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 2: of tariffs. And I mean, I do think that as 530 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 2: a matter if you were reading AEPA in a vacuum, 531 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 2: the question of whether the language to regulate importation permits 532 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 2: tariffs is tricky. 533 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 7: It's difficult explain why it's tricky. 534 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: Well, I think the administration's argument was we can clearly 535 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 2: ban imports under that language and under AIPA, and they've 536 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 2: done that for decades under various economic sanctioned statutes. And 537 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: so the theory would go, if we can ban imports, 538 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 2: why can't we do something more calibrated and measured, such 539 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 2: as impose a tariff. 540 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 5: Just a reminder, if you're just joining us, we're speaking 541 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 5: with Dave Townsend, partner with Dorsey and Whitney, and June Garasso, 542 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 5: the host of Bloomberg Law. With us here Polswenian Scarlet 543 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 5: Foo on Bloomberg Intelligence after the Supreme Court struck down 544 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 5: President Trump's global tariffs, saying that he exceeded his authority 545 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 5: by invoking a federal emergency powers law. Dave, let me 546 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 5: ask you a dumb question. President Trump does not respond 547 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 5: well to legal setbacks. We know that he appeals to 548 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 5: a higher court an authority. There is no higher court 549 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 5: than the Supreme Court. But is there really no legal 550 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 5: recourse for him left here? Could he, I don't know, 551 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 5: seek to impeach a justice or three justices? 552 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 2: So I mean, I think there's there's kind of two 553 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 2: dimensions here in terms of what happens next. One is 554 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 2: with respect to tariff refunds and whether importers are owned tariffs, 555 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 2: And the second is what does the administration do next? 556 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 2: What is the US tariff policy in light of this opinion? 557 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 2: And the administration has been laying the groundwork, I'm sure 558 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 2: behind the scenes, but in public too, saying continuity will 559 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,479 Speaker 2: carry the day as of today and moving forward, and 560 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 2: the tariffs in one form or another will be reimposed 561 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 2: under probably a combination of authorities. So I think, you know, 562 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 2: the refund issues important to companies moving forward, the policy 563 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 2: issue may not actually move that significantly, at least in 564 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 2: you know, the near term. I think they're going to 565 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 2: be ready to come out with something very quickly to 566 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 2: backfill and replace the IPA tariffs. 567 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 3: All right, Dave, thank you so much for joining us. 568 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 3: Really appreciated Day Townsend. He's a partner with Dorsey n Whitney. 569 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 3: Give us his thoughts on the legal side of this case. 570 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 3: And of course June Grasso, legal analyst for Bloomberg, joining 571 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 3: us as well.