Speaker 1: This crowd rises to it speaking what Carl slammed it
Speaker 1: out art left.
Speaker 2: Wing free ball perfect Darlot.
Speaker 3: Then the helift block, the shot at the rim pow
Speaker 3: with the left hand head of fowl. Welcome to the
Speaker 3: Chase Down Podcast, part of the Caves Media family. I'm
Speaker 3: your host Justin Rowan. The Chase Town is presented by Fubo,
Speaker 3: the official streaming partner of the Calves. Watch over three
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty channels of live sports and TV, including
Speaker 3: fan Duel Sports Network without cable, there's no cost and
Speaker 3: no commitment. Pry for free at foobotv dot com Slash Calves.
Speaker 3: The off season continues to roll on and unfortunately for
Speaker 3: the Cleveland Cavaliers, they have some news. Darius Garland underwent
Speaker 3: surgery on his big toe. To help me discuss this
Speaker 3: as well as a continuing our dive to look at
Speaker 3: what roster moves the Caves are facing this offseason. It's
Speaker 3: my co host, Carter Rodriguez. Carter, how you doing, Buddy good?
Speaker 2: Uh, It's it's been a crazy, uh crazy stretch personally,
Speaker 2: so uh, you know, why not a little bit of
Speaker 2: crazy in Calves Town, you know, with some bad news.
Speaker 2: I guess I would say, but like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I'm curious how you felt, you know, reacted to this one,
Speaker 2: because like, on one hand, it sucks, you know, and
Speaker 2: Darius is going to have to rehab all summer, which
Speaker 2: means he doesn't get to work on his game all summer,
Speaker 2: which means that you know, maybe camp might be in jeopardy.
Speaker 2: We're not share based on some of the reporting out
Speaker 2: there in terms of his full recovery. But on the
Speaker 2: other side, there is like a little bit of validation
Speaker 2: for like, you know, for two you know, card carrying
Speaker 2: members of the Darius carl And fan club where you know,
Speaker 2: we it feels like there's been a lot of people
Speaker 2: coming after, you know, Darius for not being able to
Speaker 2: play like himself in that postseason. It's like, well, see,
Speaker 2: like there is a little bit of that, right, So, like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, like there's obviously I'd rather not feel
Speaker 2: validation and have him be fine and not need certain
Speaker 2: but there is like a little bit of that. For me,
Speaker 2: they're actually surprisingly enough, and I'm someone that is prone
Speaker 2: to being smug. It's one of my best and worst traits,
Speaker 2: particularly when I feel like I'm right. That's one of
Speaker 2: my default reactions to any news. But really, when when
Speaker 2: I saw this news, I just kind of felt empathetic,
Speaker 2: right Like, even to the people that had some doubts
Speaker 2: about what this run was, you're not operating with the
Speaker 2: information to make a judgment, right, And I think, you know,
Speaker 2: so much of the conversation is unnecessarily combative, and I
Speaker 2: just feel like when people are reacting to the raw
Speaker 2: emotions of the situation, we all wanted the Cavs to
Speaker 2: go further than they did. It was a very disappointing moment.
Speaker 2: You're you're looking for any.
Speaker 3: Outlet there, You're not not everybody is incentive ized to
Speaker 3: think about things rationally and sit down on a microphone
Speaker 3: and try to make sense of it, right Like, you're
Speaker 3: you're really dealing with the emotions of the moment. So
Speaker 3: my instinct wasn't to go, hey, hey, you see you
Speaker 3: know you you doubtersay everything that went wrong. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, we're all pulling in the same direction, and
Speaker 3: this is unfortunate news. You know what you said about
Speaker 3: the offseason, that's disappointing, right, Like, I think there's probably
Speaker 3: still going to be a lot of work that he
Speaker 3: does end up doing. I think you're going to have
Speaker 3: opportunities to work on your body physically, to to try
Speaker 3: to you know, get your your strength up, and to
Speaker 3: add some weight. Probably you aren't able to add too
Speaker 3: much because you don't want to add more weight to
Speaker 3: the toe and all that, but you know, there is
Speaker 3: still opportunities to do some exercises, and the cav statement
Speaker 3: indicated that he's expected to make a full recovery and
Speaker 3: start to resume basketball activities around training camp. I still
Speaker 3: would expect him to miss some time into the regular
Speaker 3: season obviously, you know, you're you're hoping that it's less
Speaker 3: than it is more, but you know it's it's going
Speaker 3: to be a process. But part of me also thought
Speaker 3: back to twenty fifteen, Kyrie gets hurt in the finals,
Speaker 3: he misses the start of the next sea, and even
Speaker 3: despite all of that occurring, even despite you know, it
Speaker 3: taking him until about February to look like himself, he
Speaker 3: still ended up taking that next step. He took that
Speaker 3: playoff leap that was necessary for the team to win
Speaker 3: a championship. So it's not like we don't have a
Speaker 3: precedent for it. But you know, obviously you would want
Speaker 3: a better outcome than what we got here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just do think it kind of just
Speaker 2: goes to show like injury luck is it's just a
Speaker 2: hard thing to manage, you know. Yeah, And I think
Speaker 2: and there really is a lot of truth to that.
Speaker 1: No one's healthy by the end.
Speaker 2: Of the year adage, and it's just about degrees at
Speaker 2: that point. And you know, the fact that it was
Speaker 2: bothering Darius for like two months before before it got
Speaker 2: got real bad on a complete freak incident, as you know,
Speaker 2: is just one of those things where you kind of
Speaker 2: have to settle in. And I kind of was, like,
Speaker 2: I remember thinking to myself and I might have said
Speaker 2: this on the podcast of like it's hard to like
Speaker 2: feel like you wasted your good luck injury season where
Speaker 2: you know, you didn't lose anyone for the year, and
Speaker 2: you had general health. You know, almost all your players
Speaker 2: played up, you know, in the high sixties at least
Speaker 2: Jarrett played all of you two, and you feel like
Speaker 2: you waste it.
Speaker 3: But like.
Speaker 2: I mean, at the end of the day, you still
Speaker 2: had a guy who was so hurd he needed surgery,
Speaker 2: and it's part so maybe they weren't as lucky as
Speaker 2: we thought. They were, I guess is the crux.
Speaker 3: It's part of why when I look at the NBA
Speaker 3: Finals right now, I'm not sitting here being like well,
Speaker 3: part of me still says it should have been us,
Speaker 3: just given the way that the rest of the breaks went.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, like when I watch Game five,
Speaker 3: and I've actually watched back that series three times now,
Speaker 3: so out of your mind, I am out of my mind.
Speaker 3: I'm in a dark, dark place here, Carter. But when
Speaker 3: when I watched that back Game five in particularly like
Speaker 3: Darius and Donovan, it was just so clear they didn't
Speaker 3: have more games left in them, like they might have
Speaker 3: had one or two. But if they even advanced past Indiana,
Speaker 3: I think Donovan, I this is pure speculation. I think
Speaker 3: it would have been like Boston where he gets shut
Speaker 3: down and he just can't complete the series. Like I
Speaker 3: thought it looked like that. I thought he was moving
Speaker 3: around in that way. Darius was just so clear that he,
Speaker 3: you know, was in a very very you know, serious
Speaker 3: situation physically, right, It's it's inevitable, like when when he
Speaker 3: was sitting out the first two games again against Indiana.
Speaker 3: It's hard not to think, as you say, all these
Speaker 3: injuries are degrees, right, Like everybody's dealing with some sort
Speaker 3: of ailment. When it comes to the playoffs, you're sitting
Speaker 3: there being like, well, you know, Austin Reeves, he looked
Speaker 3: like crap, but he was playing through a toast brain,
Speaker 3: right Like you're you're wondering, what is this? What what
Speaker 3: degree are we at? When it comes to Darius. And
Speaker 3: then when he's playing in Game three and he just
Speaker 3: couldn't even maintain it balance at times and he's you know,
Speaker 3: falling flat on his face without real pressure on him.
Speaker 3: I'm like, Okay, we're talking about something really serious here.
Speaker 3: And you know, I thought maybe we're out of the
Speaker 3: woods when some time had elapsed from the regular season
Speaker 3: to to this point now that there wasn't going to
Speaker 3: be a surgery. But clearly, you know, you try to
Speaker 3: maintain this situation, see if that's necessary. You know, some
Speaker 3: people always question, well, why wasn't the surgery done right away?
Speaker 3: There are issues when it comes to surgery, right, Like
Speaker 3: you have to deal with scar tissue. You have a
Speaker 3: lot of things going on, like look look at myself.
Speaker 3: I tore my achilles and I didn't have surgery, Like
Speaker 3: it was full rupture. I know someone that actually had
Speaker 3: their hamstrings ripped from their hips and that was corrected
Speaker 3: without surgery, right, Like, there are ways that you can
Speaker 3: manage those types of situations without going you know, the
Speaker 3: operative route. So you know, obviously it reached a point
Speaker 3: where they felt like this was necessary to clean this
Speaker 3: up and to guarantee the best possible outcome when it
Speaker 3: comes to his health.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And also I think it's like it was just
Speaker 2: clear that this was an injury that you just kind
Speaker 2: of were waiting to get better, waiting to get better,
Speaker 2: waiting to get better, and when you know, I don't
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know how the team felt behind
Speaker 2: the scenes. You know, reporting is a tricky thing at best,
Speaker 2: let's just say charitably in terms of how injury reporting
Speaker 2: works in the league. But like, you know, I even Darius,
Speaker 2: I think if you were to ask him, was like, damn,
Speaker 2: I thought this was gonna be good by now, you know,
Speaker 2: after he set out those two Miami games after the
Speaker 2: first one, and it was just.
Speaker 3: Like, remember after game two, we debated should they rest
Speaker 3: Darius for a game?
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, crazy and I and I just think
Speaker 2: it was one of those things where the longer it
Speaker 2: didn't get better, the more like resigned. I got to
Speaker 2: this is not gonna follow, uh, you know, a standard timeline.
Speaker 2: It's just going to be an injury that either like that,
Speaker 2: they're just they you know, we've left the standard deviation
Speaker 2: right with it with it with a toe injury.
Speaker 3: And.
Speaker 2: Especially just given that, you know, athletes don't rehab like
Speaker 2: we rehab. You know, the I'm sure the real answer
Speaker 2: is don't walk on your toe for a month and
Speaker 2: a half, but that's just not really a thing players
Speaker 2: get to do. So and I wouldn't be surprised if
Speaker 2: you know, like you know, the recovery was set back
Speaker 2: further by the fact that he did got it out
Speaker 2: the last couple of games. And of course we're not doctors,
Speaker 2: we don't know, but it was just one of those
Speaker 2: injuries that I think, to your point about like they
Speaker 2: didn't have any games left in them.
Speaker 1: I did.
Speaker 2: That's why I you know, the second he got ruled
Speaker 2: out for Game two, I felt like the season was over. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And I I texted several people as much because like
Speaker 2: I just I think that I think that toe is
Speaker 2: screwed in a major way and this is not the
Speaker 2: difference between forty eight hours of rest at this point,
Speaker 2: and that clearly has borne out to be true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's unfortunately because it's now two years in
Speaker 3: a row that you know, the season really ended in
Speaker 3: injury and both guards being limited in the playoffs. Right
Speaker 3: Like last year, Darius didn't get hurt in the playoffs,
Speaker 3: but you know, he didn't really have that recovery time
Speaker 3: to get the weight back after the job, right, Like,
Speaker 3: there was so much stuff going on. Obviously he had
Speaker 3: the death in the family as well. Donovan missed post
Speaker 3: All Star break and was not himself physically in the playoffs.
Speaker 3: Looked great against Miami, like Games one and two. Both
Speaker 3: guards out out there, you know, running, they're flying all
Speaker 3: over the place, and then you see how the season
Speaker 3: ends and both of them are limping and not making
Speaker 3: through it. And you know, as much as we are
Speaker 3: advocates for hey, we want to see you know, the
Speaker 3: at least the bones of this team return, you know,
Speaker 3: this is going to be one of those questions. This
Speaker 3: ultimately might be the story of the Caves, is they
Speaker 3: can't get through a playoff run fully healthy, right, Like,
Speaker 3: we don't know, and so much of this is luck right, Like,
Speaker 3: even you know, you can have something that's only a
Speaker 3: ten percent chance of occurring, and you can spin that
Speaker 3: wheel a few times and you fall on a ten
Speaker 3: percent You know, two three straight times doesn't necessarily mean
Speaker 3: it's going to happen the next time, but it you know,
Speaker 3: the more times it occurs, the worse it's going to feel.
Speaker 3: But I think, you know, I still feel like are
Speaker 3: kind of how we feel about the offseason is still
Speaker 3: the same. The Calves owe it to themselves to see
Speaker 3: what options are available to them as they approach the
Speaker 3: second Apron, and they're going to be limited in terms
Speaker 3: of movement. But when you look at really the ability
Speaker 3: to only make kind of one for one or one
Speaker 3: for two moves or for players below from a salary standpoint,
Speaker 3: at the very least, I just I'm I consider myself
Speaker 3: to be a creative guy. I just don't see a
Speaker 3: lot of trades out there that seem worthwhile when you're
Speaker 3: looking at those players below, Arius Donovae and Evan.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and before we talk about any of the Apron stuff,
Speaker 2: and I know we're going to keep hitting on it
Speaker 2: all summer because I do think it's really important and noteworthy.
Speaker 2: I do you think your probability you know, you're spind
Speaker 2: the wheel metaphor does hold true because we want this
Speaker 2: to be merit based, We want this to be structure based, and.
Speaker 1: And it is.
Speaker 2: Of course, there's a reason good teams stay good and
Speaker 2: bad teams tend to stay bad. Right, there is a
Speaker 2: skin that we're not playing the slots here, but like
Speaker 2: the best percentage chance you have for a title, especially
Speaker 2: if you don't have a Lebron James generational Michael Jordan
Speaker 2: type of player, the best chance you're probably going to
Speaker 2: get if everything goes like you know, any time you
Speaker 2: simulate a season is going to be like twenty five
Speaker 2: percent of the title, thirty percent of the title, and
Speaker 2: every other in all these elements that play in, you know,
Speaker 2: meaningfully knock that down because it's like an injury to
Speaker 2: you and an injury to one of the other twenty
Speaker 2: nine teams. They're not equivalent, like in terms of your
Speaker 2: title hopes, you know, and so it's just one of
Speaker 2: those things where you just you just there's nothing known,
Speaker 2: there's nothing guaranteed, and you know, the job is not
Speaker 2: to build a team. They can't lose the team. The
Speaker 2: job is to build a team that has the highest
Speaker 2: probability of winning, and like, if you're worried about this
Speaker 2: team's ability to hold up in the postseason, I'm there
Speaker 2: with you. I am worried both in terms of their
Speaker 2: literal physical health and some of their style of play
Speaker 2: concerns that we hammered on. But you know, at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, I do think that's it needs
Speaker 2: to constantly be reminded that there this is a this
Speaker 2: is a numbers game and a probability game, and uh,
Speaker 2: all the all the front office can do is try
Speaker 2: to maximize get that number as high as possible. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you know, for the most part, like if you
Speaker 2: want to take some solace, like for the majority of
Speaker 2: what the Cavs have dealt with, you know, this season
Speaker 2: from an injury standpoint, it's fluke stuff, right, Like DeAndre
Speaker 2: Hunter a bit of a you know, a tough play
Speaker 2: front from Ben Matherin and fractures his finger, right, Evan Mobley, Yeah,
Speaker 2: Evan Mobley, yeah, thank you. High ankle sprain had the
Speaker 2: same thing happened in last year's playoffs.
Speaker 3: It's unfortunate. He's a warrior for his ability to play
Speaker 3: through that kind of stuff. But that's not a wear
Speaker 3: and tear kind of fatigue injury. Darius when he broke
Speaker 3: his jaw, like, that's that's a fluke, right, and that
Speaker 3: derailed the whole season unfortunately. But you know, he was
Speaker 3: healthy for that Knicks series, right, and he was healthy
Speaker 3: for the play and he like we've seen him finish
Speaker 3: most of the last few seasons. And I think, honestly,
Speaker 3: I think how he played after the jaw has impacted
Speaker 3: how we feel like he plays when he is a
Speaker 3: little banged up. We've seen him play with you know,
Speaker 3: an ankle sprain and stuff like that and still be effective.
Speaker 3: I think, you know, finding out that the toe went
Speaker 3: back as far as it did, it's kind of funny,
Speaker 3: you know it was, I think, Sham said March twenty third,
Speaker 3: That's when things started turning around for him. That's when
Speaker 3: he started getting a shooting touchback. That's when you got
Speaker 3: you know, those games against the Knicks and all that
Speaker 3: after a couple of weeks of poor shooting. So we've
Speaker 3: seen these guys be effective. The one that concerns me
Speaker 3: a little bit from you know, a soft tissue, wear
Speaker 3: and tear type thing is Donovan, where you have these
Speaker 3: recurring issues on the left side right, like it was
Speaker 3: a bone bruise in his left knee last year going
Speaker 3: into the playoffs, had a calf strain ultimately against the
Speaker 3: Celtics in on his left leg, and that's what caused
Speaker 3: him to miss the rest of that series. Again. You
Speaker 3: see kind of thatt ankle, left knee, soreness, left calf right.
Speaker 3: And that's a big part of why my philosophy and
Speaker 3: going into this offseason is not I want to increase
Speaker 3: the load on Donovan Mitchell. Let's make him the primary initiator.
Speaker 3: Let's trade you know, Darius for a three and D
Speaker 3: wing and and let him play the point guard. I
Speaker 3: think you know, this is once again an opportunity for
Speaker 3: them to redistribute some usage, still using Mitchell as a
Speaker 3: primary play finisher, but continue to empower Evan Mobley into
Speaker 3: to build them up in that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's uh, there are opportunities that come out of
Speaker 2: these kinds of things. I am you know, I yeah,
Speaker 2: I think you know. We've been pretty clear we're not
Speaker 2: on team trade Darius.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh and uh and uh.
Speaker 3: It's not like I'm not transparent about like how I
Speaker 3: feel about him. We're pretty clear that.
Speaker 2: We're fans and we think he's kind of the best
Speaker 2: guy to run our offense moving forward. And you know, again,
Speaker 2: the next series they lose because they couldn't get stops
Speaker 2: will be there first or all their series, they've lost
Speaker 2: her on the offensive end. And you know, you can
Speaker 2: certainly quibble with Darius's ability to stay healthy down the stretch,
Speaker 2: but you know, I still trust what he can do
Speaker 2: based on that end compared to just about any of
Speaker 2: the other options.
Speaker 1: And and the tricky man.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a tricky tricky thing with kind of the
Speaker 3: roster construction of the Calves is when you look at
Speaker 3: the top three, there are some redundancies in terms of
Speaker 3: Garland and Mitchell, like they're both you know, smaller guards
Speaker 3: six to three and under that that handled the ball
Speaker 3: a lot. But they on the other hand, there's not
Speaker 3: that real redundancy because honestly, like if Donovan's out, I
Speaker 3: don't think Darius is able to step up as a
Speaker 3: scorer in the way that we would need him to
Speaker 3: in order for us to be a functioning top ten
Speaker 3: type offense. If Darius is out, we have already seen
Speaker 3: that Donovan isn't the level of playmaker to have a
Speaker 3: playoff top ten offense, he's able to get his own
Speaker 3: as a score or but indeed, what was their philosophy.
Speaker 3: We're not going to send help at you. We're going
Speaker 3: to like force you, bait you into being a score
Speaker 3: because if we're not sending a second man to you,
Speaker 3: we're not giving you playmaking reads that you're going to make.
Speaker 3: And you see the rest of the team go cold,
Speaker 3: and Evan Mobley like, you know, I don't have to
Speaker 3: make an argument for why, you know, there's no redundancies
Speaker 3: with what he does. He's you know, he's that dude.
Speaker 3: But you know, going back to what I said about
Speaker 3: reacting to the Darius surgery news and how I wasn't
Speaker 3: really you know, jumping down people's throats about the injury,
Speaker 3: I feel the same way when it comes to roster
Speaker 3: building constructions because I think how scary the second apron
Speaker 3: and the restrictions are is going to vary based on
Speaker 3: your level of belief with what the roster they currently
Speaker 3: have is right. And I don't mean.
Speaker 1: That second apron is fine if you like your roster.
Speaker 3: I don't mean that one through twelve. I think you
Speaker 3: know there's opportunities for changes, and we're going to get
Speaker 3: into that on this podcast. But when it comes to
Speaker 3: how far you believe the core is going to be
Speaker 3: able to go when they're healthy. If you were a
Speaker 3: skeptic going into last year, nothing occurred that's going to
Speaker 3: change your perspective or how you view or how you
Speaker 3: feel about them. How can I sit here as an
Speaker 3: analyst and everyone knows where my feelings are, but from
Speaker 3: an analysis standpoint, how am I going to sit here
Speaker 3: and say, hey, you know, there's a lot of context
Speaker 3: that went into the playoffs. You really should, you know,
Speaker 3: open your mind up to changing your perspective and those
Speaker 3: preconceived notions you had. That's unfair me to ask to
Speaker 3: any fan or analysts that I don't happen to agree
Speaker 3: with their reasoning. How you feel about the second apron
Speaker 3: is and how panicked you are about the restrictions of
Speaker 3: it is completely impacted by how confident you are in
Speaker 3: the top and talent of this team. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 3: that's fair and if you but I will say it's
Speaker 3: hard no matter what, Like, would I rather you know?
Speaker 3: I remember we might have been talking about this privately,
Speaker 3: but there was you know, there had been some reporting about,
Speaker 3: you know, the owners being like, oh, the second apron
Speaker 3: is too punitive, Let's let's lighten, let's maybe tweak some
Speaker 3: of these things. And part of the reason I was
Speaker 3: kind of cool with going into the second apron is like,
Speaker 3: maybe they'll just make it better. Maybe it won't suck
Speaker 3: so much to be here. By the time we're there,
Speaker 3: it doesn't seem like that's forthcoming. Who's to say, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, I haven't seen any reporting since those kind
Speaker 3: of initial that initial noise.
Speaker 1: A year or two ago.
Speaker 3: Could you imagine being the team that made some moves
Speaker 3: to do, you know, adjust their situation right before that
Speaker 3: news broke. I feel like the Chicago Bulls.
Speaker 2: Yes, of course they'd never pay the luxury tax, so no,
Speaker 2: it wouldn't. I but yeah, I mean, I definitely feel
Speaker 2: the challenge of it because even on the mark it,
Speaker 2: it actually is just as hard to upgrade the middle
Speaker 2: class of your roster. It might be harder, honestly, because like,
Speaker 2: if you're on team Darius isn't as good as as
Speaker 2: as like me and you think he is or Jarrett
Speaker 2: less so because of where the numbers at. But like
Speaker 2: it's easy to make to find a Darius Garland trade
Speaker 2: for some pretty good players, you know, like you can
Speaker 2: generally make that work within the numbers. Now, neither of
Speaker 2: us want to do that because we don't think those
Speaker 2: players are better than Darius Garland.
Speaker 3: And I've also seen a lot of like reasonable examples
Speaker 3: that will work within the numbers that don't work within
Speaker 3: the numbers, which you should probably figure those out.
Speaker 2: Yes, you should, probably you know, boot up the old
Speaker 2: trade machine on spot track before you you share. But I,
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, like I see that
Speaker 2: for someone like me who is interested, who feels pretty
Speaker 2: good about the top guys on the team, and you know,
Speaker 2: might want some stylistic changes in the middle class, it
Speaker 2: is hard. And it's hard for two reasons. It's hard
Speaker 2: because of the restrictions and not being able to do,
Speaker 2: you know, two for one aggregating trades or taking in
Speaker 2: more money than you bring in. But I think the
Speaker 2: hidden little demon of of of it is the fact
Speaker 2: that it also just completely makes it impossible to work
Speaker 2: with any other teams who are in your situation. Like
Speaker 2: in order for the Calves to do a trade with
Speaker 2: the Phoenix Suns, it has to be a dollar for
Speaker 2: dollar match. Or it's not legal, and like, so all
Speaker 2: these teams that are you know, even even first apron
Speaker 2: teams that are right up against it, it's just really
Speaker 2: really hard.
Speaker 1: So like not don't.
Speaker 2: It's not just that you have limitations, it's that you
Speaker 2: know a third or of you know, two or forty
Speaker 2: percent of the rest of the league has similar or
Speaker 2: ass punitive of limitations. So you can't do business as comfortably. No,
Speaker 2: you really can't.
Speaker 3: But there are some ways that can bring in additional
Speaker 3: help without additional cost. Carter, do you know which one
Speaker 3: you're overlooking?
Speaker 1: Which one?
Speaker 3: Zoom may I Companion available and no additional costs with
Speaker 3: eligible paid plans. Because only you can do your best work.
Speaker 3: Zoom Ai Companion can help you do the rest, like
Speaker 3: automatically taking notes, answering meeting questions, and helping you respond
Speaker 3: to your coworker. Available with no additional cost with eligible
Speaker 3: paid plans. We're happy with zoom may I Companion. There
Speaker 3: is Yeah, does go ahead.
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, like it is just it's
Speaker 2: just a challenge to figure out how to meaningfully tweak
Speaker 2: the roster, and like deciding how much you're willing to
Speaker 2: how risky you want to get. I guess in terms
Speaker 2: of that, you know, like even within the rotation of
Speaker 2: the team right now, you know, Isaac had another really
Speaker 2: rough playoffs, and Diana is and yeah, Dean as well,
Speaker 2: So you know, part of your brain goes, I don't
Speaker 2: know if I want to go into the playoffs, you know,
Speaker 2: hoping for the third or fourth straight year with these
Speaker 2: guys that they're gonna they're gonna get hot from three
Speaker 2: in match their regular season offensive output. But so so
Speaker 2: you might look at like a Jalen Tyson and say, hey, Jalen,
Speaker 2: we didn't really give you much run, and but we
Speaker 2: know the things you're good at, and there are things
Speaker 2: that you know, maybe we you know stylistically, aren't great at.
Speaker 2: So like there's some things that you could bring, but
Speaker 2: that's gonna be a real challenge.
Speaker 1: And like when you.
Speaker 2: Talk about coaches coaching for the playoffs, sometimes that means
Speaker 2: playing a worse eighty two game player in hopes of
Speaker 2: a better sixteen game player. Because there's a real world,
Speaker 2: because like there is so much value in guys like
Speaker 2: Isaac and Dean not screwing up for eighty two games,
Speaker 2: being reliable, being you know, being pretty much the same
Speaker 2: guy night to night to night, and you know, some
Speaker 2: nights they go they you know, they're they're they're better
Speaker 2: than others, but like their floor is pretty high in
Speaker 2: terms of what to expect them from them on a
Speaker 2: ninth night basis throwing transactions off to the side, like
Speaker 2: how comfortable are you saying, hey, uh, you know, Jalen,
Speaker 2: h we want to see if you're someone who can
Speaker 2: help us in the postseason, and we're gonna let you
Speaker 2: figure it out or play and play twenty minutes a night,
Speaker 2: even knowing that they'll probably like there's a very good
Speaker 2: chance that Isaac is a better regular season player than
Speaker 2: him right now, and we don't know that Jalen is
Speaker 2: a better sixteen game player right now.
Speaker 1: Like you have to be.
Speaker 2: You have to get a lot riskier I think in
Speaker 2: your in your in your headspace, and I'm just I'm
Speaker 2: curious to see how ready the team is to do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm I mean there is a real risk, right,
Speaker 3: Like young players are really exciting. But when I was
Speaker 3: talking about you know the Synergy stats available on basketball
Speaker 3: index of you know, where the team ranks in terms
Speaker 3: of perimeter isolation defense and all those sorts of things.
Speaker 3: Balen Tyson did good on the screens, but isolation defense
Speaker 3: is small sample. In the minutes that he played. He
Speaker 3: is not only the only person below you know, the
Speaker 3: fiftieth percentile in the league in perimeter isolation defense, but
Speaker 3: he's down below like the tenths. Like it's bad. It
Speaker 3: was really really bad for him. And you know, some
Speaker 3: of that small sample you're coming in in garbage time.
Speaker 3: But that's what you expect from young players, right Like
Speaker 3: they're not always ready for that moment. He's definitely someone
Speaker 3: that I would be interested in, right Like we talked
Speaker 3: about him last season when they brought him in, is
Speaker 3: hey potentially the following season, that could be a lot
Speaker 3: avert succession plan, right Like someone that's going to step up,
Speaker 3: handle a little bit of that ball handling, handle a
Speaker 3: little bit of the initiation. I love some of the
Speaker 3: stuff we saw from him. I love the activity. I
Speaker 3: love his ability to you know, high point basketballs and
Speaker 3: get the rebounds. I thought he is someone that you know,
Speaker 3: fills up the box score when when he's out there.
Speaker 3: That's exciting to me. I like the fact that he
Speaker 3: you know, honestly, I like the fact that he gets
Speaker 3: turnovers because it shows that he's seeing things like it's
Speaker 3: not hey, I can't handle the ball and I'm turning
Speaker 3: the ball over type things. It's you know, finding the
Speaker 3: right read, but you're half second slow. And I'd rather
Speaker 3: I have someone that can see that kind of stuff
Speaker 3: and try to make those plays and explore the space
Speaker 3: than someone that's just not doing anything out there but
Speaker 3: not making mistakes. This is going to sound like a
Speaker 3: convenient answer, because it absolutely is. I'm ready to, you know,
Speaker 3: put him part of the regular rotation because I think
Speaker 3: if he hits, it's something that the calves need and
Speaker 3: would benefit from within the rotation. I'd also kind of
Speaker 3: like a little bit of a veteran option to go
Speaker 3: to if that's not panning out come.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was kind of my next question, which is like,
Speaker 2: if you're you know, right now, I think we're really
Speaker 2: looking at the back half of the calves playoff rotation,
Speaker 2: you know, and to probably put a finer point on it,
Speaker 2: the Okoro Dean uh after the.
Speaker 3: Top six right right now, if we're assuming you know,
Speaker 3: the core war guys, Strus and Hunter are all back
Speaker 3: after that, I think it's an open question for how
Speaker 3: you want to distribute your you know, your last chips
Speaker 3: in terms of who you can sign, who you can
Speaker 3: bring back, who you're going to trade for are you're
Speaker 3: going to trade a first round pack?
Speaker 2: And I'm all kind of presuming Tie is back. And
Speaker 2: obviously you know they know what, you know what they
Speaker 2: say about assuming, but I think for the sake of
Speaker 2: this exercise, I'm going to presume Tie is back and
Speaker 2: he's in the rotation, and we're going to chalk up
Speaker 2: you know, this that nightmare series to just being a
Speaker 2: nightmare series. Ye that role players have sometimes, you know.
Speaker 2: But and if he hadn't been so great against Miami,
Speaker 2: I would maybe feel different.
Speaker 1: But you know, he.
Speaker 2: Did play great for a stretch yep and like I'm
Speaker 2: not sure I could say the same for Dean or
Speaker 2: Ice where I don't think either of them played well
Speaker 2: against Miami either. No, and before you continue with your point,
Speaker 2: the one thing I want to say with o'cor is,
Speaker 2: and you know, Dean has been unhealthy for a lot
Speaker 2: of kid of these playoff runs. Last year he was
Speaker 2: healthy and there was the heasnancy to shoot right, Like
Speaker 2: I thought, he played well defensively, but you know, you
Speaker 2: need kind of that willingness to shoot, and particularly like
Speaker 2: when we talk about how the Cavs need that secondary playmaking,
Speaker 2: they need guys with juice, just not getting that from
Speaker 2: either of those positions, and I think the potential of
Speaker 2: that with a Jalen Tyson is what makes me interested
Speaker 2: in exploring that as an option.
Speaker 3: But with o'cora in particular, like he shot thirty eight
Speaker 3: percent from three in the playoffs, and you know, normally
Speaker 3: that's the type of thing that we celebrate about, but
Speaker 3: to me, that just goes to show you how meaningless
Speaker 3: that percentage is because one it's a low volume and
Speaker 3: two he was turning down shots and there was a
Speaker 3: lack of confidence there, and the fact that there were
Speaker 3: times where he was floating, not playing confidently after a
Speaker 3: regular season where I thought he was used better. He
Speaker 3: was used as a screener, a roller, he's doing all
Speaker 3: these kind of active things and stuff like that. The
Speaker 3: fact that that didn't translate to the playoffs and there
Speaker 3: isn't an injury situation and he is turning down open shots,
Speaker 3: that to me is different than what we've seen in
Speaker 3: the past, and that to me makes it more urgent
Speaker 3: to you know, really explore what went wrong there and.
Speaker 2: What options you got to explore the space? And I
Speaker 2: guess my question I was trying to kind of ramp
Speaker 2: up to is I think we're both interested in, uh,
Speaker 2: the you know, the Jalen Tyson door. If we're at
Speaker 2: a hallway with three doors, and we've got the Jalen
Speaker 2: Tyson door, we've got the you know, run back the
Speaker 2: same rotation as last year door, then the third door
Speaker 2: is go get someone. Yep, would you be are you
Speaker 2: more interested in going and getting someone and even maybe
Speaker 2: giving up a little capital to do so in the
Speaker 2: form of players and some draft compensation. Obviously we're not
Speaker 2: talking about Tradin first right now, but I might be, well,
Speaker 2: maybe maybe, But are you interested in going through that
Speaker 2: third door more than you're interested in going through the
Speaker 2: Jaalen Tyson door. Yes, I think that needs to be
Speaker 2: the priority. I think that would be the priority. But
Speaker 2: part of why I.
Speaker 3: Can confidently answer that is because I've seen that Kenny
Speaker 3: Atkinson approaches the regular season. I see how deep in
Speaker 3: the rotation he goes. I know that opportunities are going
Speaker 3: to arise for guys to step up and play more minutes.
Speaker 3: I would like Tyson to at least be you know,
Speaker 3: the tenth man in the rotation, because we do know
Speaker 3: that Kenny goes ten deep. I want him to be
Speaker 3: part of the regular rotation. But I think the priority
Speaker 3: should be really looking at what options are available to you.
Speaker 3: And you know it's going to be a tricky line.
Speaker 3: What veteran free agents are you able to bring in
Speaker 3: because who you target is a trade candidate. If you're
Speaker 3: looking at kind of those smaller salaries that still can
Speaker 3: find actual matching players. The types of players you are
Speaker 3: going to target are going to be impacted by who's
Speaker 3: available in the free agency market. You know, are you
Speaker 3: able to convince someone like Al Horford to take a
Speaker 3: veteran deal with the Cavs. That might impact who you
Speaker 3: look at from a trade standpoint, Like you might not
Speaker 3: be looking at a big you might be looking at
Speaker 3: a wing, right. Same thing goes for Larry Nance Junior.
Speaker 3: I think he can get more than that. But we
Speaker 3: saw last offseason guys like Trey Jones, Gary, Trent Junior,
Speaker 3: a whole bunch of guys that we thought were, you know,
Speaker 3: for surefire like mid level or some like Gary. There
Speaker 3: talks of him being like a twenty million a year
Speaker 3: player ended up going on a vet minimum to contending teams.
Speaker 2: I can I jump in real quick with something that
Speaker 2: in the biggest difference this year for those kinds of
Speaker 2: guys is last year we didn't have room for him
Speaker 2: because we still I think we were still ready to
Speaker 2: go one more year with it's Isaac spot to lose,
Speaker 2: it's Dean's spot to lose. And it's really hard to
Speaker 2: go into those conversations with anyone any of these you know,
Speaker 2: guys who basically like I'll take a haircut to be
Speaker 2: on a good team and try to rehab my value,
Speaker 2: you know, like it's like the difference between three million
Speaker 2: and two million is not moving the needle for me,
Speaker 2: you know. And I'm throwing out BS numbers, but you
Speaker 2: get what I'm saying. I do feel like the sea
Speaker 2: has changed enough for this CALVS team that it's easier
Speaker 2: to go to a Larry and say, hey, if you
Speaker 2: sign here, our plan is to have you in the rotation. Yes,
Speaker 2: you know, and I don't think they could. I don't
Speaker 2: think I would have said that going into last year
Speaker 2: to Gary Trent Junior or a Trey Jones. You know,
Speaker 2: I don't think you could reliably promise that in a
Speaker 2: way that any player would believe you. I think the
Speaker 2: back end of this calvs rotation is shaky enough in
Speaker 2: terms of how confident we are in their postseason contributions
Speaker 2: that we like. I do think the Calves have better
Speaker 2: AMMO going into this summer.
Speaker 3: I think the other factor is we're not coming off
Speaker 3: a forty eight win season where the guys were hurt,
Speaker 3: coaching change, you don't know what it's going to look like,
Speaker 3: what's the stability of the roster, all that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: You know, they lost in the second round. Boston just
Speaker 3: won the championship. Austin's tearing it apart, Jason Tatum's going
Speaker 3: to miss next season. Right. The Cavs won sixty four games.
Speaker 3: I think it is an easier sell for a veteran
Speaker 3: to say, hey, not only are you going to play
Speaker 3: a role, the East is wide open. There's a real
Speaker 3: chance we were the best regular season team in the
Speaker 3: Eastern Conference. We need to get over the hump in
Speaker 3: the playoffs. We think some veteran, you know, veteran push
Speaker 3: can can make a difference here. Maybe that is attractive to,
Speaker 3: like you said a Larry and Ants JUNR Malcolm Broggen,
Speaker 3: someone that's been mentioned, is willing to take a VET
Speaker 3: minimum deal to you know, play it for a contender.
Speaker 3: Does that impact how you view things with Ty Jerome
Speaker 3: right and all the time when it comes to these
Speaker 3: free agents, like you know, you can say, hey, I
Speaker 3: like what he brings more than the guys you're considering
Speaker 3: bringing back. You don't know if they have any interest
Speaker 3: in the calves. You don't know who's actually an option
Speaker 3: or not. But I'm saying whoever does express interest. When
Speaker 3: you do your you know, your talking agents and your
Speaker 3: back channeling and all that kind of stuff that might
Speaker 3: inform what you're looking at from a trade standpoint, that
Speaker 3: might inform kind of where you're prioritizing your energy to
Speaker 3: fill out the roster. And like for me, it's also
Speaker 3: a different conversation because DeAndre Hunter's on the roster, Like
Speaker 3: that really really changed the dynamic. And like my top
Speaker 3: priority when it comes to this offseason, I'd love to
Speaker 3: add a power forward. I'd love to add a backup
Speaker 3: power forward so that DeAndre Hunter is in default slotted
Speaker 3: into that role. I don't have passionate feelings about who
Speaker 3: should start, particularly if we're going to be upping Mobiley's usage.
Speaker 3: I think Max Streus might be more suited to that
Speaker 3: than a DeAndre Hunter. But I want both of those
Speaker 3: guys basically playing those starter minutes or like twenty eight
Speaker 3: minutes a game. I want them both to be on
Speaker 3: the wing. But I want to have that power forward
Speaker 3: that makes it easier for Hunter to slide down to
Speaker 3: small forward and for us to play bigger around our
Speaker 3: smaller backboard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, how good did it feel, even just archaetypically,
Speaker 2: whenever Dean and DeAndre were sharing the floor at the
Speaker 2: three and the four next to Evan or Jared at
Speaker 2: the five, like it felt good, they felt big. But
Speaker 2: then when you tried to run those lineups in the
Speaker 2: postseason and it's just like, well they're not Garden Dean,
Speaker 2: and when he catches the ball, he can't really attack,
Speaker 2: you know, and like it just it just you weren't
Speaker 2: getting the yield, you know, from those lineups, and like
Speaker 2: adding a little bit more juice, either whether as a finisher,
Speaker 2: as a dunker, spot lurker, as a corner, like whatever,
Speaker 2: it is. Someone with a little bit more juice, a
Speaker 2: little bit more oomph, you know, I think at the
Speaker 2: end of the day. That's what I want from this
Speaker 2: Calves offseason is oomph injections. I want, like I watch
Speaker 2: two teams make the NBA Finals with sharp elbows and
Speaker 2: in nasty pushing and shoving and grabbing and holding and bumping,
Speaker 2: and yeah, they're also fundamentally really solid. But people aren't
Speaker 2: terrified to go against the thunder because Alex Caruso slides
Speaker 2: his feet so well, yeah, they're terrified to go against
Speaker 2: the thunder because every time you bring it in, someone's
Speaker 2: digging in and poking at the ball and slapping at
Speaker 2: your arms and slapping at your hands. I dude, I
Speaker 2: almost like if the Calves are near the top of
Speaker 2: the league in foul rate next year, I'll be happy.
Speaker 2: It's almost one of those like negative stats that you
Speaker 2: want to see more of because it means the team'sing
Speaker 2: a more physical brand of basketball and like so like
Speaker 2: that's kind of almost what I'm looking for, is like,
Speaker 2: who I want oomph and I want chaos generator event
Speaker 2: kind of play from this team. Like I'm sick of
Speaker 2: being the fundamental nice team. I want to see them
Speaker 2: kind of rough folks up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if we are conceding that we think from
Speaker 3: a talent standpoint, to make sure you're maintaining the high
Speaker 3: end talent at the very least, you got to have
Speaker 3: your top three guys back. You got to think about
Speaker 3: everything else all around them. And you know, the one
Speaker 3: thing I'm going to keep repeating all off season is
Speaker 3: they need to change how it feels to play against
Speaker 3: the Cleveland Cavaliers. They need to be able to maintain
Speaker 3: an identity. That doesn't mean always playing one style. Your
Speaker 3: identity might be, hey, we're that team that does experiment.
Speaker 3: We are that team that plays, you know, tries different things.
Speaker 3: If you know the sauce switching. We made arguments for
Speaker 3: and against it on a previous podcast. If that's something
Speaker 3: that they want to maintain, you got to ask yourself,
Speaker 3: do we have the right personnel to execute that at
Speaker 3: a high level? Do we want to have Jared Allen
Speaker 3: out there? Is he ideal for when we're playing that style?
Speaker 3: Do we want teams to be able to get Tyrese
Speaker 3: Haliburn onto him every single time? Now people might default to, oh,
Speaker 3: does that mean trade Jared Allen or whatever. No, it
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that. Like when you look from a roster construction, standpoint,
Speaker 3: and like percentage of the salary cap you're talking about
Speaker 3: like an Alex Caruso and in a couple of years
Speaker 3: Isaiah Hernstein tier player. If you're bringing in a like
Speaker 3: a power forward, another option there that allows you to
Speaker 3: play a little bit of a different style defensively, there
Speaker 3: might be some matchups where you play a little less
Speaker 3: Allen and you are playing you know, a Larry NaNs
Speaker 3: junior or a you know, Dwight Powell or whomever you're
Speaker 3: bringing in b ball.
Speaker 1: Paul, you are ready for that list.
Speaker 3: That was a tough one.
Speaker 1: That was really we're ready for that list at all.
Speaker 3: Bobby portis Yabuselli, Yeah you know you know.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, bo is high on my show. Brother let
Speaker 1: me tell ya.
Speaker 3: And you know my dream candidate, which I think is
Speaker 3: going to be out of our price range, but you
Speaker 3: know why I was advocating for him two years ago. Well, PJ. Washington, Like,
Speaker 3: I think that is an absolutely ideal.
Speaker 1: Such a helpful player.
Speaker 2: I will say to your point about Jarrett kind of
Speaker 2: being in that Caruso and not even yet in the
Speaker 2: Hertenstein range is like I do think it. It really
Speaker 2: goes to show you how much team context and overall,
Speaker 2: team success colors the way we feel about players and
Speaker 2: how they fit within the context of their teams. I mean,
Speaker 2: you had the thunder benching their thirty million a year
Speaker 2: acquisition and people were like surprised by the strategy of it.
Speaker 2: But no one I didn't see a single person suggests
Speaker 2: that they had made a poor investment in adding Hartenstein
Speaker 2: to their team. I didn't see anyone suggest that chet Holmgren,
Speaker 2: who played like twenty four minutes in that game, was
Speaker 2: not ever gonna get to where Okay, see they needed
Speaker 2: him to get because they have so much depth, They
Speaker 2: have so much stylistic diversity in how they can play,
Speaker 2: especially on the defensive end of the floor, that you know,
Speaker 2: it's all defensible and thus easier to rationalize. So much
Speaker 2: of the quote unquote Calves need to move on from
Speaker 2: Jarrett conversation is rooted in the fact that if Jarrett
Speaker 2: is not playing a good ge is not having a
Speaker 2: good game when he goes to the bench. They don't
Speaker 2: have lineups that can kill teams yep, and that can
Speaker 2: play different styles, you know, like generally, Like one of
Speaker 2: my big gripes about a Calves down shift, even going
Speaker 2: back to when the ang was on the team, was
Speaker 2: like they didn't get different, they just got smaller. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like they didn't like a whole different kind of version
Speaker 2: of them. They just kind of felt like a little
Speaker 2: bit a little shootier and a little less anything else,
Speaker 2: you know. So like I feel like that's if I'm Kobe,
Speaker 2: I'm really trying to generate as many lineup combinations that
Speaker 2: allow them not to need every individual contributor to be
Speaker 2: on their freaking a game all through a playoff series.
Speaker 2: Because guys at Jared's you know, salary slot roughly, are
Speaker 2: guys that you're supposed to be able to say, Hey,
Speaker 2: it's not your night, it's not your matchup tonight, You're
Speaker 2: gonna play twenty twenty four minutes. But right this version
Speaker 2: of the caves, because DeAndre couldn't catch the ball or
Speaker 2: shoot because his thumb was dislocated, because Dean had another
Speaker 2: really rough offensive postseason, because Okoro had another off season,
Speaker 2: it's like, well, you're looking around your options to go, Jared,
Speaker 2: just figure it out, buddy, and like, you know, that's
Speaker 2: in you know, and to his whatever the opposite of
Speaker 2: credit is, by the end of the series, he wasn't
Speaker 2: figuring it out and it wasn't going well. But again,
Speaker 2: I just think the context matters so much, and like
Speaker 2: they need to just keep juicing the rest of this
Speaker 2: roster with that kind of stylistic diversity, and that might
Speaker 2: mean being a little risky with what kinds of promises
Speaker 2: you make in terms of rotation spots and free agency,
Speaker 2: what kind of and how aggressive you want to be
Speaker 2: on the trade market.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the thing that I keep coming back to as
Speaker 3: well as the Cats have a lot of depth, but
Speaker 3: in terms of how you like access that depth and
Speaker 3: how you get them to perform, the number of routes
Speaker 3: were very limited. It's usually Donovan or Darius or or Evan,
Speaker 3: you know, generating some looks for guys and they're out
Speaker 3: there being play finishers. You don't have the ability to
Speaker 3: create from so many positions, different positions. And you know,
Speaker 3: as much as I want size and I want physicality
Speaker 3: and I want it to feel a little different, I
Speaker 3: want a little bit of juice of playmaking.
Speaker 1: Right like that.
Speaker 3: That's why al Horford is appealing to me, That's why
Speaker 3: Larry's appealing for me. Obviously that comes with an injury risk,
Speaker 3: and obviously I'm biased as a friend of the podcast.
Speaker 3: I'd love to have Larry. I think it would be
Speaker 3: great to have him on the roster. But he's a
Speaker 3: terrific playmaker. He's someone that you are able to, you know,
Speaker 3: get the ball to when teams are pressuring, because you
Speaker 3: know when teams are being physical, when you're receiving that pressure,
Speaker 3: the best way to beat it and the best way
Speaker 3: to prevent it from even getting established is by swinging
Speaker 3: that ball and creating You look at the Indiana Pacers,
Speaker 3: Tyres Halliburn is one of the best playmakers I've ever
Speaker 3: seen playing basketball. Like though, the way that he takes
Speaker 3: care of the basketball, the way that you're able to
Speaker 3: run offense through him, and all that, it's terrific. When
Speaker 3: you look at the true usage so you know usage
Speaker 3: rate and assist opportunities generated, TJ McConnell has a higher
Speaker 3: true usage rate on that team than Tyrese Haliburn because
Speaker 3: they're comfortable allowing Tyres to play off ball and to
Speaker 3: generate action and run offense coming off a swing. The
Speaker 3: Caves denied Tyre's Hallimburn the ball a lot against the
Speaker 3: Pacers in the playoffs. What were they comfortable doing? Andrew
Speaker 3: Nemhard's going to run more pick and roll actions for
Speaker 3: the entire playoff series than Halliburn did. And if the
Speaker 3: ball happens to swing to Halley on a possession, we're
Speaker 3: good with it. If it doesn't, that's fine as well.
Speaker 3: We're going to allow the Cavs to try to be
Speaker 3: physical and face guard him and take him away from
Speaker 3: the ball. And you know, it swings to him with
Speaker 3: six seconds left and he's got a nice so with
Speaker 3: Jared Allen, he's going to take that step back to
Speaker 3: his left like they're completely comfortable with that, and that's
Speaker 3: something I think the Cavs can emulate. Darius is one
Speaker 3: of the better off ball guards that we have in
Speaker 3: this game. Donovan's made huge strides there. You need more
Speaker 3: guys that can initiate that have a little bit of
Speaker 3: juice as a playmaker. Max Struss is not Steve Nash,
Speaker 3: but think of how much better the offense feels and
Speaker 3: how much he unblocks with just the playmaking he has.
Speaker 3: You have one or two more guys that can do that,
Speaker 3: and you have bone and fide play finishers like a
Speaker 3: DeAndre Hunter and the top end guys. I just think
Speaker 3: it's going to be so much harder to turn the
Speaker 3: water off for this offense when it comes to the playoffs, yep.
Speaker 2: And it also makes it easier to have guys at
Speaker 2: seventy five eighty percent for a series or two yep,
Speaker 2: you know, because they can just be part of a machine.
Speaker 2: Like as much context as we've provided in trying to
Speaker 2: kind of argue, like, you know, this wasn't the best
Speaker 2: version of the Caves because of these injuries. Like I
Speaker 2: keep going back to last year's playoffs where Indy is
Speaker 2: down to Halliburton. They're down like three rotation players, and
Speaker 2: they're still beating the hell out of out of Boston
Speaker 2: and making them earn every bucket and making and making
Speaker 2: Boston guard every possession and imposing their style of play
Speaker 2: even without all their best players there to do it.
Speaker 2: I think about Orlando and they're having their season from
Speaker 2: hell this year, down a lot of important players. The
Speaker 2: vibes are wrong.
Speaker 1: All year, you know.
Speaker 2: They they basically like barely squeak in. And then what
Speaker 2: do they do. They impose their style throughout an entire
Speaker 2: playoffs series, even when they're completely outgunned and really have
Speaker 2: no shot from a talent perspective, and and a styles
Speaker 2: make fights perspective, but they still impose their will. And
Speaker 2: like that's where I think some of that that playmaking depth,
Speaker 2: what that what that kind of stuff gets you. In
Speaker 2: the form of Indie or in the form of Orlando,
Speaker 2: they have so many guys that can do what they
Speaker 2: want to do, And I just I just feel like
Speaker 2: to your point, all the stuff for the calves is
Speaker 2: generated at the top. Even when it's mobively getting more,
Speaker 2: which we still want, there's still it's still a top
Speaker 2: down offense. Which it's not that in terms of like
Speaker 2: you know, like in terms of touches maybe, but like
Speaker 2: it is that in terms of like impact and initiation.
Speaker 2: Like you look at Indy and they're running dribble hand
Speaker 2: offs with Thomas Bryant, Ben Matherin gets to cook, Ben
Speaker 2: Shephard gets to run some side pick and roll, you know,
Speaker 2: up and down their roster. Everyone gets to do stuff,
Speaker 2: Nie Smith, nim Hard, Like there's just stuff happening up
Speaker 2: and down their roster. And like I do think I'm
Speaker 2: trying not to like over index, like the caves can't
Speaker 2: just become the pacers.
Speaker 1: Like the stuff to be themselves.
Speaker 2: You can steal stuff, there are a lot of good
Speaker 2: things to steal from this Pacers team, absolutely, and frankly,
Speaker 2: like there should be like a little bit of like,
Speaker 2: well damn, like, yes, there's a miss on like the
Speaker 2: overall talent analysis of of that Pacers roster, like they're
Speaker 2: definitely more talented than we thought they were. But I
Speaker 2: don't think I think we've just kind of forgotten the
Speaker 2: uh as a basketball community. Like the story of this
Speaker 2: Pacer season, to me is forgetting that the whole thing
Speaker 2: that we love about basketball is the more than the
Speaker 2: sum of your parts, is the like because we dude,
Speaker 2: how many pickup games have you played in where either
Speaker 2: your team or the other team's just got it going
Speaker 2: and it doesn't matter, Like it's like they you know,
Speaker 2: or you're playing with some boys that you like, that
Speaker 2: you know really well, and like you know that this
Speaker 2: guy's gonna cut here, and this guy's going to do this,
Speaker 2: and that guy's going to do that, as like, and
Speaker 2: you beat a team that that should be running you
Speaker 2: off the floor, like we've all been part of that,
Speaker 2: We've all we all know what that is, and I
Speaker 2: think we kind of forgot about it. And all the
Speaker 2: spreadsheet tracking and transact transition and player rankings and transaction tracking,
Speaker 2: like this is the stuff that matters, and this is
Speaker 2: the stuff especially when you don't have a top one
Speaker 2: type of star, you need to find a way to
Speaker 2: bottle up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you gotta, you know, take from all over the league, right,
Speaker 3: it's a copycat league. You know, there's value in stealing
Speaker 3: stuff when when you see someone doing something good that
Speaker 3: you're not currently doing, take that from them. I went
Speaker 3: to made it through college without that. Like, it's it's
Speaker 3: important to find these ways to become more than some
Speaker 3: of your parts. Because I don't think the Cavs have
Speaker 3: accomplished that yet. I think they have done it as like,
Speaker 3: if I look at the regular season, I think they've
Speaker 3: done it offensively. The other thing that kind of strikes
Speaker 3: me is when it comes to the regular season approach,
Speaker 3: I don't want it to be as kind of plain.
Speaker 3: I don't want it to be shell offense and defense
Speaker 3: like we did in the regular season. I thought we
Speaker 3: added some ring clos throughout the year. I think for
Speaker 3: the most part, you know, we played our style and
Speaker 3: it was good enough to get sixty four wins. I
Speaker 3: want to see a little bit more experimenting. I want
Speaker 3: to see, you know, trying things out. I want to
Speaker 3: try playing different styles. I want to try playing different lineups.
Speaker 3: Like the fact that we got so little of DeAndre
Speaker 3: Hunter with Garland, Mitchell, Mobley and Allen. That's that's a bummer.
Speaker 1: That's a mess. It's a mess.
Speaker 3: Honestly, the fact that we got so little DeAndre Hunter
Speaker 3: at power forward next to Mobley with Garland and Mitchell,
Speaker 3: like we got almost none of that. I think we
Speaker 3: actually got none of that in the playoffs, and obviously
Speaker 3: availability had something to do with that, but that was
Speaker 3: something that we thought, hey, maybe that could be a
Speaker 3: closing line up. They might go away from Jared in
Speaker 3: these moments and go to that. I want to see
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. I want to see different looks.
Speaker 3: I want to see as much as I loved the
Speaker 3: predictability and the reliability of the rotation, I know Sam
Speaker 3: Merrill's checking in at this time, I know you know
Speaker 3: Isaac's checking in at this time, Like this is how
Speaker 3: we're going to run things. I want to see. Let's
Speaker 3: get practice of changing up a little bit of what
Speaker 3: we do for different matchups. I don't think it needs
Speaker 3: to be every game, you know, I think Nick Nurse
Speaker 3: wore out the Raptors trying to change the defense with
Speaker 3: every single matchup that they had in the regular season,
Speaker 3: but prioritize one game a week of Hey, this is
Speaker 3: one that we want to try something. We like this matchup.
Speaker 3: We've done a little bit of scouting. We're going to
Speaker 3: approach this a little bit differently. These teams that we
Speaker 3: see in the playoffs, the teams that are still playing,
Speaker 3: they play a variety of different styles. Right like when
Speaker 3: okay See went away from Hertenstein in the starting lineup. Yeah,
Speaker 3: some of that was because the injuries, Chet miss time.
Speaker 3: You know, guys miss time, and you know they were
Speaker 3: able to go to that, but it was also a
Speaker 3: lineup that they would start second halfs with. They would
Speaker 3: change up things mid game, even if you have kind
Speaker 3: of your ceremonial starters. I want to see just a
Speaker 3: little bit more of that, And I don't think that
Speaker 3: that's something that's going to really increase how much of
Speaker 3: a load we're and how much we're asking of these
Speaker 3: guys in a regular season.
Speaker 2: Well, cool thing about this is I don't think we
Speaker 2: have a coach that gets high on his own supply
Speaker 2: too much.
Speaker 1: You know, like and and.
Speaker 2: It's going to be a real challenge, I think, you know,
Speaker 2: and I think we're gonna learn a lot about Kenny
Speaker 2: uh over the course of the season, because like it
Speaker 2: was just kind of pure Uphill or pure Downhill Sledden
Speaker 2: all regular season, and even when he made certain calls
Speaker 2: like that, I wouldn't have made that, everything kind of
Speaker 2: seemed to work. And like now like this is the
Speaker 2: first time we're gonna see Kenny react to some failures
Speaker 2: and like as and again, as much context as there
Speaker 2: is around injuries, I think Kenny would tell you they
Speaker 2: could have won that series and or at least certainly
Speaker 2: could have extended it if if if they had played I.
Speaker 3: Think everyone in that thought they could win it, and
Speaker 3: I agree with it.
Speaker 2: And so it comes down to, like I always go
Speaker 2: back and say, it's gonna be a long offseason to
Speaker 2: me saying this, it's like what lessons is Kenny gonna
Speaker 2: choose to learn? Is it was it that the team
Speaker 2: didn't do what he was telling them to do well
Speaker 2: enough and he needs to make sure he's doing telling
Speaker 2: them stuff, or like how much is he gonna question
Speaker 2: his own strategy and his own rotations and his own
Speaker 2: prep and because like there is a you can't be like,
Speaker 2: you can't just be like you know, you can't just
Speaker 2: flop around and chase every potential insecurity, right, So he's
Speaker 2: gonna have to decide certain things that he's like, No,
Speaker 2: I was right to do it this this way, and
Speaker 2: I can't change that because that's who I am as
Speaker 2: a coach versus I thought, this is who I was
Speaker 2: as a coach, but maybe I shouldn't do it this
Speaker 2: way next time. And like, because like, you can't change
Speaker 2: everything all the time, you will lose your locker room
Speaker 2: so fast if they feel you floundering. Try to find
Speaker 2: who you are. So but you also can't be like
Speaker 2: the stodgy like you know, we've seen so many coaches
Speaker 2: get run out where like they run into yeah, their
Speaker 2: battle plan doesn't survive first contact and they're just like, no,
Speaker 2: just do it my way but better, over and over
Speaker 2: and over again, and eventually that where's then and players
Speaker 2: stop believing in that. So big test for Kenny this
Speaker 2: this upcoming season, I think an underrated quiet test for
Speaker 2: Kenny that he's really gonna we'll learn more about him
Speaker 2: this upcoming season than we ever could have This past season.
Speaker 3: I totally agree with that, and honestly, the like this
Speaker 3: is the part of basketball that I find so fascinating,
Speaker 3: Like how you adjust, how you learn from these experiences.
Speaker 3: I love that, And what I'm really looking forward to
Speaker 3: with you know, Kenny going through this challenge and the
Speaker 3: team going through this challenge is how transparent Kenny is. Right,
Speaker 3: Like he talks about, you know, how much he learned
Speaker 3: from every experience that he has with whether it's coaching internationally,
Speaker 3: whether it's being an assistant, whether it's his own personal failures.
Speaker 3: There's so much reflection and transparency, and like that that's
Speaker 3: red meat for this podcast, Like I'm really looking forward
Speaker 3: to to hearing what his reflections are, what they work
Speaker 3: on throughout the off season. And No, I trust the
Speaker 3: front office to do their due diligence, Like really, you
Speaker 3: owe to yourself to find out every single option that's
Speaker 3: available to you, and frankly, like outside Evan Mobley, like yeah,
Speaker 3: you listen to absolutely everything, and I knowing you know
Speaker 3: what that means. I don't think that there's an option
Speaker 3: available that makes sense to trade Donovan. I don't think
Speaker 3: there's an option available that makes sense to trade Darius
Speaker 3: but you have to listen to everything out there. But
Speaker 3: if I don't think it makes sense to trade Darius
Speaker 3: for a collection of role players, I sure don't think
Speaker 3: that about Donnovan Mitchell, and I continue to say the
Speaker 3: of all the great things that Donovan has brought to
Speaker 3: this organization, and like the stuff he's done to win
Speaker 3: me over, the way that he has sacrificed, the way
Speaker 3: he has adapted his game, the leadership that he shows.
Speaker 3: All of that, everything that Donovan has done, I think
Speaker 3: the most valuable thing of bringing him in is it
Speaker 3: started the stress test early. We've got guys got put
Speaker 3: in situations where they could be pressured, where they could
Speaker 3: fail in the playoffs, where they can learn from those
Speaker 3: experiences and we can learn about them. This is one
Speaker 3: more opportunity for us to learn about the team, and
Speaker 3: we're going to find out what lessons they chose to learn.
Speaker 2: As you like to say, Yeah, it's going to be
Speaker 2: a fun one. I'm really manifesting another sit down with Kenny.
Speaker 2: Maybe I can maybe ask him some of these questions directly.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Would love to see that. I absolutely would love to
Speaker 3: see that. We will continue our off season coverage. Big thanks,
Speaker 3: to everyone tuning in live on YouTube. We appreciate you guys.
Speaker 3: Make sure you like and subscribe. Click that notification bell
Speaker 3: so you know when we're going live. If you're listening
Speaker 3: to the podcasting, you want to support us, leave us
Speaker 3: a ratingly review, subscribe on subscriber you subscribe and help
Speaker 3: cook those books. We want to be part of Chase
Speaker 3: Down's exclusive discord chats. Andy screenshow their view to Chase
Speaker 3: down potogy dot com. However you choose to support us,
Speaker 3: we really do appreciate it. I'm sure you guys are
Speaker 3: staying safe out there until next time, yo, get