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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane

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Speaker 1: Never told your protection of iHeart Radio, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: another book club. Today we are reading the current most

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Speaker 1: banned slash challenged book in America. You can see our

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Speaker 1: recent I actually think it was a classic about banned books,

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Speaker 1: where we updated at the top about of what's.

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Speaker 2: Going on there.

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Speaker 1: Twenty nineteen's Gender Queer, a memoir by Maya Cobabe with

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Speaker 1: colors by Phoebe Kobabe. It's a graphic novel that explores

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Speaker 1: gender identity and Maya's own experience coming to terms with

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Speaker 1: how he identifies. And yes, he uses emair pronouns, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to try our best to get it right.

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Speaker 1: It's not difficult. It's just kind of practicing.

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Speaker 3: It's new for us, for us, for me else put

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Speaker 3: that in my own mouth.

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Speaker 1: It's new for me, and the book talks about that.

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Speaker 1: The book talks about that. But let us know if

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Speaker 1: we miss one, because we do want to get it right.

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Speaker 1: But especially coming at as a young person and having

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Speaker 1: all these questions, it's really heartfelt and open and honest.

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Speaker 1: It's beautifully illustrated. It feels like you're reading a very open,

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Speaker 1: sweet kind of look at somebody's life and there are

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Speaker 1: questions that they have and trying to trying to find

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Speaker 1: air selves and relating to other people, and it's just

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Speaker 1: a very it's I don't know. After I read it,

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Speaker 1: I felt so like I'd connected with someone.

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Speaker 3: I would think that's the overall And I know that's

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Speaker 3: what A said at the end of the book, is

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Speaker 3: that when we'll get to it when it talks about

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Speaker 3: Maya teaching, and A references to the fact that A

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Speaker 3: can't doesn't have the courage to tell their own pronouns.

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Speaker 3: But realizing how many young people were in the same

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Speaker 3: similar position of being unfamiliar and unable to put into

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Speaker 3: words how one might feel. So how important these these

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Speaker 3: types of books are. And yeah, I when I was

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Speaker 3: reading it, I was like, I feel like this might

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Speaker 3: really connect with Annie. It's just like the familia wasn't

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Speaker 3: necessarily the thing I specifically connected with, but it was

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Speaker 3: so eye opening. It's one of those things that I

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Speaker 3: feel like people should read to see an insight that's

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Speaker 3: not about themselves, which we had a whole big discussion earlier,

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Speaker 3: because yeah, I don't necessarily relate with what Maya is

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Speaker 3: speaking about the confusion, like there's other confusions. I have

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Speaker 3: my own identity with like racial and ethnicity and all

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Speaker 3: of that. This is not one of my battles. But

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Speaker 3: to see it and to read it and to see

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Speaker 3: Maya's own experiences and the struggles they went through, it's

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Speaker 3: really eye opening. Ab is so necessary again for those

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Speaker 3: any of those who would want to say that their allies,

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Speaker 3: anyone who wants to say they want to be supportive.

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Speaker 3: This is types of books should be what we read

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Speaker 3: in general, because even though you might think you know,

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Speaker 3: you don't. And again, it's kind of like and like myself,

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Speaker 3: I feel like you're going to find people. I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 3: that's what these other individuals may be struggling with, Like

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Speaker 3: that kind of level of openness. And yeah, it's also

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Speaker 3: very sad, Like it's beautiful, but it really hurts my

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Speaker 3: heart that Maya had to go through all of this.

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Speaker 3: Kobabe had to go through all of this and still

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Speaker 3: in this place of trying to undo or redo or

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Speaker 3: relearn not only about themselves but about society as a whole,

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Speaker 3: and then finding the support system. And it sounds like

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Speaker 3: Kobab had a lot of good support in their alive,

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Speaker 3: and I'm grateful for him to go through all of

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Speaker 3: that to have even though still there was a lot

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Speaker 3: of misunderstandings and back and forth. So of course nothing

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Speaker 3: is perfect in society and itself. But yeah, this book

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Speaker 3: is definitely something that I think everyone should read. I

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Speaker 3: said that, I feel like turfs should definitely read this

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Speaker 3: if you want to talk about why you might be

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Speaker 3: questioning the validity of someone's identity.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and it did. We're going to talk about it more.

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Speaker 1: But when I was reading it, I was definitely like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I see. I think that's the power of things like

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Speaker 1: this is we don't talk about it enough, and we

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Speaker 1: don't talk about sex education, we don't talk about gender identity,

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Speaker 1: we don't talk about sexual orientation, and to have something

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Speaker 1: like this, I am a thirty five I don't.

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Speaker 2: Know how I I'm thirty five ish, you're old woman.

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Speaker 1: And I was reading it like, oh, huh, I've never

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Speaker 1: thought about it that or like that connects with me

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Speaker 1: and I don't know why.

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Speaker 3: And yes, well I love this too, because as I'm

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Speaker 3: reading Kobabe's book and the memoir, I'm thinking, oh, we're

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Speaker 3: close in the same age. I had a moment where

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Speaker 3: because A are doing a timeline about when they when

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Speaker 3: aar is in school and all of that, and I'm like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think we're around the same age. Oh that moment.

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Speaker 3: But because A is learning so much about themselves still today,

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Speaker 3: it makes me feel better at the same time because

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Speaker 3: we are close in the same age. But yeah, when

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Speaker 3: you were when you kind of look at the time,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, because in my head with someone would

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Speaker 3: that much experience to me they're older? Baby is not

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Speaker 3: for me?

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Speaker 2: For me?

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Speaker 3: For you? Yes for me?

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Speaker 1: No now, And that kind of goes back to you know,

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Speaker 1: we were talking about we have this assumption that I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of us has internalized me too of

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Speaker 1: you know, by a certain age, you've figured it out

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Speaker 1: right and you have it clearly. This whole show is

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Speaker 1: kind of like proof of that. But also it was

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Speaker 1: really fun. We're going to talk about this at the end.

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Speaker 1: But there were so many cultural references where I was like, yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm right there. Yes, was brought in Supernatural or The Race?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was so long. The part it was like

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Speaker 3: so much fan fiction was brought into this. Any is

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Speaker 3: having a field day?

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Speaker 4: I did.

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Speaker 2: I was so happy.

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Speaker 1: I was like, finally we're just talking about it, like

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Speaker 1: how important it was for us.

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Speaker 2: I love it. We're going to talk about that guaranteed.

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Speaker 1: So yes, as we did mention in our book banning episode,

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Speaker 1: the funny thing with banning books is that it draws

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Speaker 1: more attention to these books. I'm totally not on board

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Speaker 1: with banning books, but it is true, and libraries have

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Speaker 1: reported the very long wait list they are getting for

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Speaker 1: this one, and honestly, I'm not sure we would be

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Speaker 1: reading it for this club.

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Speaker 3: I've never heard of it until you brought it to

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Speaker 3: my attention. That's being the most banded books. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: a good job, y'all the best. It's kind of again

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Speaker 3: we talked about how some authors are like, please put

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Speaker 3: us on the band list. That's going to give us

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Speaker 3: all the publicity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny because I was like, we've talked about

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Speaker 1: how it was the most banned book, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: let me look into it, and then it said it

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Speaker 1: was a graphic novel and it talks about fan fiction

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Speaker 1: and asexuality.

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Speaker 2: I was like, yes, that's it, we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: It is So we've also done a book club on

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Speaker 1: fun Home, which is a graphic novel about a queer experience,

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Speaker 1: and that one's also been banned a lot, and I

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Speaker 1: think the images part has a lot to do with this.

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Speaker 1: Even though the style of this one is very I

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Speaker 1: don't know how to phrase it. It's it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like for a younger people.

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Speaker 3: It's looked like a younger cartoon animation level.

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Speaker 1: And it's beautiful. But yes, it's definitely kind of feels

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Speaker 1: like it's geared toward that demographic, which is great. But

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Speaker 1: I think this part of why it's getting banned so much.

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Speaker 3: I think the title in itself it's probably why. I

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Speaker 3: don't think many of the people who've banned this book

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Speaker 3: have looked even inside of it. They just are the

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Speaker 3: war's gender and queer done out.

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Speaker 1: Yep, well as what you talked about in that book

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Speaker 1: banning episode. But yeah, most people openly like will say it,

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Speaker 1: have never read the book.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: And it is orchestrated by these conservative I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: certainly it's not all that, but there are consort conservative

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Speaker 1: organizations who are actively like, oh, here's a title I

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Speaker 1: don't like, let's ban it. So just to keep that

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Speaker 1: in mind. Also, politicians have we did which I feel

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Speaker 1: is indicative of how messed up this is. But they

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Speaker 1: use words like grooming, the obscene, it's pornographic, things like that.

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Speaker 1: But there's a bunch of people who have said, like

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Speaker 1: weighed in on the opposite side, like here's a quote,

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Speaker 1: the treatment of sex and nudity is also not high

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Speaker 1: in impact, and it is not exploitative, offensive, gratuitous, or

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Speaker 1: very detailed. And we're going to talk about this more

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Speaker 1: at the end. But when I was thinking about this,

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Speaker 1: there are so many books I read when I was

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Speaker 1: really young that had like a lot of sexual assaults

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Speaker 1: or violence or and no one raised a question about that. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's when you're talking about something that could really benefit

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Speaker 1: young people of how do you identify and exploring your

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Speaker 1: gender identity, and that's when they're like, no.

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Speaker 2: We should we should ban this. This is not good.

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Speaker 3: Right again, remember having we talked about in another episode,

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Speaker 3: like magazines that had a lot of like sex rualized

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Speaker 3: context and for like teenagers, and it was very readily available. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and here's a quote from Kobab. I drew as much

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Speaker 3: as I felt like I needed to tell the story

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Speaker 3: that I was trying to tell and get the points

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Speaker 3: across that I was trying to make, and I honestly

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Speaker 3: think the book is a lot less explicit than it

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Speaker 3: could be or would have been if written by a

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Speaker 3: different author. The topic of gender touches on identity and

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Speaker 3: touches on sexuality, and it touches on all of these things,

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Speaker 3: and it's hard to fully explain. I think how a

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Speaker 3: gender identity could impact every facet of life as an

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Speaker 3: adult without touching at least a little bit on sexuality,

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Speaker 3: And so I wanted to not shy away from that,

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Speaker 3: and I did a great job, I feel like, because

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Speaker 3: it was more of like the confusion of it being both.

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Speaker 3: And I know you've talked about this aroused but not

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Speaker 3: sexually attracted to people individually, and that's the whole complication

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Speaker 3: in itself. And I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: when we're talking about gender identity, and I believe conservative

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Speaker 3: question people would say the same thing, because that's why

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Speaker 3: they harp so much on heterosexuality, why that kind of

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Speaker 3: sexuality is important. They talk about sexuality whether it is

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Speaker 3: even if they are talking about wholesome, they're just talking

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Speaker 3: about being wholesome as a heteronormative idea and nothing else really.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And I do think this is also like

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Speaker 1: the very we've sexualized things so much, and we've just

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Speaker 1: kept so much like you don't talk about it that

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Speaker 1: something that shouldn't necessarily be sexualized or to the degree

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Speaker 1: that you would ban it is being sexualized. But well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about that more in a second. And I

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Speaker 1: do think like that's one of the biggest things people

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Speaker 1: ask me about is that they don't get They're like,

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Speaker 1: how can you It's clear that you can feel attraction,

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Speaker 1: it's clear that you enjoy masturbating, and they don't get

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Speaker 1: that it doesn't it's not it's towards like fictional characters.

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Speaker 1: And even then it's like the sweetest like maybe I

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Speaker 1: would kiss them.

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Speaker 2: Like it's not.

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Speaker 3: And this is and this is a shot I want

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Speaker 3: on TikTok of you doing that little face as you said,

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Speaker 3: kiss them.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we would cuddle.

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Speaker 2: That's it. That's it. But yeah, we are going to

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Speaker 2: talk about that. We are going to talk about that.

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Speaker 2: I'm getting all flushed. The bear it's just.

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Speaker 1: All right, So the plot and this is kind of

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Speaker 1: it's sort of all over the place because I was

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Speaker 1: just like writing what was really connecting with me, but

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Speaker 1: I really do recommend reading this book. It traces Maya's

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Speaker 1: life with these questions, like all of the questions he

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Speaker 1: had and how that impacted air life choices.

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Speaker 2: So okay.

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Speaker 1: The book begins in twenty fourteen with Maya going off

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Speaker 1: to college to get an MFA in comics. A teacher

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Speaker 1: there convinces Maya to write an autobiography because it would

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Speaker 1: be good for m and air creativity to write out

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Speaker 1: their biggest secrets to confront their biggest demons. When writing

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Speaker 1: these secrets out, Maya realizes they all have to do

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Speaker 1: with gender, getting your periods, girly clothes, swimming bathing suits,

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Speaker 1: things like that. E wrote a short comic about about

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Speaker 1: all of these issues, but taped over them due to embarrassments,

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Speaker 1: which reminds me of when I burned all of my journals.

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Speaker 1: It's just a real shame. The story then jumps back

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Speaker 1: to the past to nineteen ninety two, when Maya's family

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Speaker 1: moved to northern California. The house didn't have working toilets,

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Speaker 1: so Maya and the neighbor boy Galen, often peed outside

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Speaker 1: to avoid the like spider infested outhouse, and the illustrations

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Speaker 1: show the difference in peeing between the two of them.

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Speaker 1: So it's like a lot of these little memories of

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Speaker 1: you know something, what are these roles we're playing? What

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Speaker 1: are these differences? And Maya, not quite understanding them, are

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Speaker 1: relating to them, right.

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Speaker 3: I feel like it's also the point of understanding that

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Speaker 3: as youths being very young, it doesn't matter until it's

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Speaker 3: introduced that has to matter.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: So Maya also loved snakes and requested snake themed items

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Speaker 3: as often as possible. Mayan Galen didn't attend preschool or kindergarten,

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Speaker 3: and they are first mingling with because their age in

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Speaker 3: a social situation outside of their families devolved into a

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Speaker 3: girls are not allowed because they have cootie's defense. Neither

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Speaker 3: of them knew what a cootie was. Entering to school,

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Speaker 3: Maya struggled with things like painting, painting, knitting, and reading.

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Speaker 3: A did become the snake catcher of the school though.

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Speaker 3: That was super cute.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I liked that a lot.

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Speaker 1: And Maya sometimes got confused for a boy. A handful

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Speaker 1: of other boys in the class had longer hair. This

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Speaker 1: is like, again, it's just a bunch of small examples

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Speaker 1: of and I say small, being like, if it's not you,

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Speaker 1: then it seems small. It is a big deal, but

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Speaker 1: it kind of these like, oh, I don't get why

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Speaker 1: girls have longer hair boys have shorter hair, like just

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Speaker 1: these questions. On a field trip to a beach after

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Speaker 1: observing their dad taking off his shirt, Maya did too,

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Speaker 1: wading into the water wearing only shorts, and some of

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Speaker 1: the students called out, look, Maya's not wearing a shirt

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Speaker 1: just like a boy, and Maya's teacher made Maya put

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Speaker 1: it back on, even though Maya was confused by the

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Speaker 1: whole thing and believed everyone else was being silly. And

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Speaker 1: then there's like a really cool illustration that showcases how

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Speaker 1: Maya's parents never enforced gingder norms, not on Maya nor

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Speaker 1: on themselves. Air Mom being athletic, a green thumb, crafty,

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Speaker 1: never wearing makeup, not shaving, and then air Dad, who's

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Speaker 1: an an elitary school teacher, loved music and woodworking, being

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Speaker 1: a mechanic, a jewelry maker, a rock collector, had long hair,

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Speaker 1: so it was cool to see that illustrated. And then

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Speaker 1: Maya details the last time E wore a bathing suit

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Speaker 1: around air peers when in a hot tub, a confident

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Speaker 1: classmate pulled her leg out of the water, and the

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Speaker 1: water droplets just dripped neatly off of her freshly shaved legs.

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Speaker 1: When Maya did it, the water collated on air shaved legs,

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Speaker 1: and it annoyed Maya to encounter something else he didn't know.

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Speaker 1: And that's a big theme of like not understanding.

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Speaker 2: All of these things.

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Speaker 1: Soon after he got air first period and related to

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Speaker 1: the fictional character Alana the Lioness by two More Appears,

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Speaker 1: which I also read, who disguised to herself as a

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Speaker 1: boy to get by in this fictional world. The first

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Speaker 1: time Alana got her period, she complained, how long do

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Speaker 1: I have to put up with this? I didn't ask

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Speaker 1: to be born a girl. It's not fair. Maya quote

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Speaker 1: never thought it would happen to him. He hit it

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Speaker 1: for three days. Her parents gave Emma gift to celebrate,

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Speaker 1: but Maya saw no calls for celebration. And there's an

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Speaker 1: illustration that hit really hard. Of all of the period

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00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:07,280
Speaker 1: related items like stain removers, acne paste, paying medications, depression

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Speaker 1: sea pastes, all these things that don't sound like a

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Speaker 1: fun time. Maya went on to hide air period refusing

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Speaker 1: to use the school bathroom for two years. I'm wearing

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Speaker 1: the same pad for hours and hours. Maya described nightmares

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Speaker 1: about minstrel blood staining air leads. Bathrooms with outdoors are

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Speaker 1: waiting in line while blood leaked through airpants. Later in

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Speaker 1: the book, E discusses how he preferred biker shorts as

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Speaker 1: underwear and pads weren't compatible, and turning to men's underwear.

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Speaker 1: And this is something I was telling you right before, Samantha.

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Speaker 1: I hated bra shopping and I cried when my mom

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Speaker 1: told me I had to start wearing a bra. And

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Speaker 1: a good friend of mine also kind of turned me

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Speaker 1: on to you can wear men's underwear that might be

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Speaker 1: more comfortable. You can wear men's shirts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I remember being like in middle school and my friend

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Speaker 1: being like, you could get something from here.

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Speaker 2: It's like, I can't.

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Speaker 1: There are several instances of questions around gender and identity

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Speaker 1: over the years. E detailed getting air first bra and

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Speaker 1: not wanting it at all, getting told he should shave

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Speaker 1: by an ant and not understanding why boys didn't have to,

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Speaker 1: and not wanting to because the hair was so soft.

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Speaker 1: So for ten years, Maya only wore pants except for

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Speaker 1: soccer when the uniforms almost completely covered the legs anyway,

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Speaker 1: with the socks of wishing air. Mother had named m

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Speaker 1: a gender neutral name.

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Speaker 3: Things like that, right, I will say, I love a

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Speaker 3: bit gender neutral name, so like, I don't know, I

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Speaker 3: don't mind being referenced to Sam because you don't know,

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, yes, let's just keep it that way.

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Speaker 3: So Maya looked up gay and lesbian in the dictionary.

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Speaker 3: After having crushes on boys and girls. Maya told a

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Speaker 3: friend about these crushes before school, and our friends said

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Speaker 3: it was probably just a phase, a common thing. But

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Speaker 3: then Maya got a big crush on another girl and

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00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 3: the friend tried to sabotage it, trying to convince Maya

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Speaker 3: E was not a lesbian.

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Speaker 2: That makes me sad, Yeah, yeah it does.

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00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,720
Speaker 1: Soon after, an openly gay student announced his intention to

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Speaker 1: form a queer straight alliance. Though it took some courage,

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Speaker 1: Maya went to join one of their meetings, and at

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Speaker 1: these meetings they talked about gay marriage and gay penguins

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Speaker 1: who raised tango, which I wanted to bring up because

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Speaker 1: that's also. One of the most banned books is the

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Speaker 1: very sweet children's book about.

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Speaker 3: Wins Lidia the Parson reg episode.

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Speaker 1: Yes Yes, Maya's friends tried to convince him not to go,

351
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 1: complaining that he became unbearable after reading gay romance novels.

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00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 1: Soon they joined, and the club sort of morphed into

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Speaker 1: a Lord of the Rings fan club That's right, complete

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Speaker 1: with discussions about which of the actors were most likely

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Speaker 1: to be gay.

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Speaker 3: I love that that the whole unbearable statement, because I

357
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 3: do think it's funny. Not that you're unbearable, but you

358
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,640
Speaker 3: do get cut up in your world of Star Wars

359
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,359
Speaker 3: or The Last of Us and your daurries. I love it,

360
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,160
Speaker 3: and you're very good about taming yourself.

361
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Speaker 2: But we know it's always back there.

362
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,439
Speaker 3: We know what's going to happen. We know what's coming.

363
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Speaker 2: Did you know?

364
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 3: I did not, but thanks for telling me.

365
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,679
Speaker 2: You will, you will know.

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Speaker 3: So Maya was called in the office about not wearing deodorant.

367
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Speaker 3: I feel like that happens to a lot of young kids,

368
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Speaker 3: and I get it, and I don't. Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: So he felt it was another example of air ignorance.

370
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 3: In the hopes of finally taking to air crush, Maya

371
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 3: asked her dad about David Bowie music, and I feel

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Speaker 3: like that's like a queer canon, like you discover David

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Speaker 3: Bowie and or all those lots of the crush liked Bowie,

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Speaker 3: and when Maya listened and heard queer lyrics, he fell

375
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 3: in love with the lyrics again. Am I using that

376
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 3: expression cannon right? Because it's the new thing I've heard.

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00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 1: It's huge on TikTok and you still haven't seen Spider Verse.

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Speaker 2: I can't even talking about it.

379
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 1: Jeez. Anyway, we're gonna go see it because we have

380
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:49,879
Speaker 1: to do an episode on Yeah, yes, we're going to

381
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Speaker 1: see it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, perfect, say angrily.

383
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: When Maya was eleven, he imagined having a penis for

384
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,919
Speaker 1: the first time. Later he put a stock down airpants

385
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,400
Speaker 1: and imagined having a bulge while thinking of their favorite

386
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 1: gay ship, and even later he would dream that air

387
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,360
Speaker 1: wish had been granted and he had a boner. Then

388
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: there's a scene talking with air sister, who they seemed

389
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: like they had a great relationship. Illustrations I believe, yeah,

390
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 1: about how it never occurred to him to put something

391
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 1: in air vagina or to taste air self. And that

392
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 1: stood out to me because I had the same conversation

393
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: with a friend of mine when we were in middle

394
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: school and it's like, what are you talking about?

395
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Speaker 3: I've never had that conversation with a friend. Maybe we

396
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 3: were just too shy. We explicit we talked about masturbating,

397
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Speaker 3: but we never explicitly talked about what that meant.

398
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: She was talking about a book that she had read

399
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: where that happened, and so I don't know. It was

400
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: sort of she was like, yeah, and then they did this,

401
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: and I was like, what.

402
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 3: He like sex talking? It gets explicit, You're like, what

403
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 3: the hell is happened. I'm like everyone, not just you,

404
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 3: but like everyone like yes, but specifically.

405
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 2: Yes, yes. Anyway.

406
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: Maya then realized he was attracted to androgyny, which made

407
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 1: it difficult to pin down air sexuality.

408
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 4: Uh.

409
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 1: He started to fantasize he had been born with two

410
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 1: half souls, one boy and one girl, and he came

411
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: up with this lost male twin who always felt like

412
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 1: he should be a girl.

413
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 3: I thought was interesting, right, And I like that whole

414
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 3: like half spirits, because it is that two spirit idea

415
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 3: that that the Natives have always talked about and have

416
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 3: always represented, and that's been a part of their culture. Again,

417
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 3: if we just listened to the Native people, I think

418
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 3: we would all be smarter and happier.

419
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: But that was okay.

420
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, anyway, it's not okay. I'm sad. Then Maya learned

421
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 3: about the term transgender. This spurred a whole lot of

422
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 3: questions about identity, both sexual and gender. He wrote in

423
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 3: our journal at fifteen, I don't want to be a girl.

424
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 3: I don't want to be a boy either. I just

425
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 3: want to be myself. He dove into reading articles, books,

426
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 3: especially of a queer variety. He got a haircut, a

427
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 3: very short one. He loved being described in masculine terms,

428
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 3: and that haircut scene really was cute because he was

429
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 3: talking about how free they felt for the first time,

430
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 3: and he used to hate being in pictures but now

431
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 3: loved it.

432
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: Yes, and there's a very cute moment about Maya's sister

433
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: knowing all of this before Maya did, which I really

434
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 1: really liked. Then Maya fell in love with the theater

435
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: and to go on a date with a dude sort

436
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: of out of guilt and pity, and immediately regretted it

437
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: when he called m girlfriend, so he called the guy

438
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: back and canceled. Maya turned to a friend and complained

439
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: about all the stuff girls are expected to do and be,

440
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: and Maya's friend said he was the least girly person

441
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: they knew, which I also related to this immediate regret, no.

442
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 3: Little for I feel like the extreme, like you're my girlfriend.

443
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 3: I can tell everyone, yes, yeah, this works, but okay again.

444
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 3: I had that weird one date and the dude was like,

445
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 3: I can't find it one better than you, crying because

446
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 3: I had to break up with him after a date,

447
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 3: and I'm like, this is intense.

448
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 2: That is intense.

449
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 3: Why are we doing? This is happening anyway? This might

450
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 3: explain to like older men being just as immature. Who knows.

451
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 3: Maya still wrestled with confusion about aerosexuality and identity, but

452
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 3: felt much happier. He was the only AFAB to wear pants,

453
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 3: had graduation in two thousand and seven, and when we

454
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 3: say f fab assigned female at birth. He went to

455
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 3: college hoping to find love like their parents had. He

456
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 3: learned about the damages of chest binding, something he learned

457
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 3: after getting cast in a lead male role in the

458
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 3: college's small drama program and experiencing jealousy of people without breasts.

459
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 2: Yep.

460
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 1: A friend of Maya's tried to set him up with

461
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 1: a woman after finding out Maya sexuality, but Maya ran away,

462
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: literally ran away. Later, Maya contacted the woman on Facebook,

463
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: but the woman wasn't scared off and continued to show

464
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 1: interest and confused, Maya thinks this is what he should want.

465
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: Like air parents, Maya spoke to their dad but was

466
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: still confused about dating. Afterwards, Maya called the woman to

467
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: discuss all of this, and after confirming what a relationship

468
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: would mean with this one and basically friendship with quote

469
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: gross sex in Maya's mind, Maya confirmed he wasn't interested

470
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: in a relationship. So yes, Maya is definitely wrestling with

471
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 1: am I a sexual? Like I've got all these things

472
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: going on?

473
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: Questions?

474
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: Again, He continued to explore air identity through entertainment like

475
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 1: fan fiction. Yes, okay, so this scene resonated with a

476
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: lot of people no matter your gender identity. He got

477
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: this gynecology exam and felt very uncomfortable with air nude

478
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: body and feeling unable to ask questions like why don't

479
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: I feel like a girl to the gynecologist and experiencing

480
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: horrible existential pain and swearing after that nothing would ever

481
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: enter air vagina Again, Maya re examined the idea of

482
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: being a sexual after college, when he realized that he

483
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: probably had less of a sex drive than anyone else,

484
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: though he had been able to masturbate with just thoughts,

485
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: which again I was like, Oh, this is me. He

486
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: sort of accidentally came out as not cis gender when

487
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: arguing with someone who didn't get why the term was everywhere,

488
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: and then he discussed the whole thing with air mom

489
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: about how he wished he could remove air reproductive system.

490
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: And then he fell into one direction fandom, which some

491
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: of you have written in about, and started using fan

492
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: fiction to work through grief. One hundred thousand words. But

493
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: after all the angst, he didn't know how to write

494
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: a makeout scene and he decided to make out with

495
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: someone for fan fiction.

496
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 3: Is this you do?

497
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: You do?

498
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 3: You do this level of like research because I'm thinking about,

499
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 3: like when you talk about doing sex things and such,

500
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 3: not that you would that as a research thing, but

501
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 3: that did get pop into my head.

502
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 4: It's funny because I was reading this, I was nodding

503
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 4: my head furiously like I have done ridiculous researcher fan fiction.

504
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 4: I've never I never kissed someone for it because I

505
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 4: just kind of read other fan fiction and I had

506
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 4: to kissed people before, but I learned from other fan fiction.

507
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: But the first one of the first fan fictions I

508
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: wrote included a four minute makeout scene that a friend

509
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,959
Speaker 1: of mine who's definitely not asexual read and was like,

510
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: this is not realistic.

511
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 3: Is a katie?

512
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: She was right? I was just like, how long do

513
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 2: you kiss for? Is it a lot of times?

514
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 3: A little boat time? People who write dramas really go

515
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 3: all out and exaggerate all those things, so it's not

516
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 3: so unhearted that people would.

517
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 2: Think, yeah, yeah, it was.

518
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: It was clear that I didn't know those normal quote

519
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: heavy quotes.

520
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 2: For kissing length, but I tried my best.

521
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: Yes, and through this research for fan fiction, he discovered

522
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: the term auto androphilia, which is a person who's a

523
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: fab who is sexually aroused at the thought or image

524
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: of having a penis.

525
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 2: Which I had never heard before.

526
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 3: I had neither.

527
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, learning all the time. Anyway, Maya went on a

528
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: tender date. It was a failure, but then another one

529
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: was a huge success, and they were very open with

530
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: each other. They had a lot in common. They find

531
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: types of sexual intimacy that they're both turned on by. However,

532
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: Maya realized he was more turned on by the imagined

533
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: fact of having a peace, and he broke off the relationship. Still,

534
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: Maya reopened tender because he never figured out how to

535
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: end my fat fiction. Yes, yes, however solution Maya contacted

536
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: air friend to write the sex Seeds, which.

537
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: Is what I'm way to do it.

538
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 3: And the good thing the friend was ready. She'd been waiting.

539
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 3: She said, I had thousands of words ready to go.

540
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 3: So this is when Maya discovered they then pronouns. He

541
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 3: made mistakes using them at first, but soon it clicked

542
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 3: as in for other people. He met someone on hormones

543
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 3: and discussed why he didn't identify as a transman. Again

544
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 3: it was about less gender traits, not more. Again, didn't

545
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,719
Speaker 3: want either. Then he learned about em air pronouns. And

546
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 3: I think I'm putting an accent. So y'all hearing me?

547
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 3: This is my Southern accent coming out with the earth.

548
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I heard it.

549
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 3: I hope it is endearing and non offensive. It's it's

550
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 3: my North Georgia accent happening here.

551
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: Anyway.

552
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,239
Speaker 3: Ask him what he wants in art. At first, he

553
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 3: didn't want to make people uncomfortable by asking people to

554
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 3: use these pronouns even though it felt right, but air

555
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 3: friend asked him if he would rather feel a little

556
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 3: uncomfortable all the time. Uh. And when Maya asked air

557
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 3: gay aunt about changing pronouns that she was concerned that

558
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 3: it was due to an internalized hatred of women. And

559
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 3: they came to a good place, but Maya was still

560
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 3: played with questions and a feeling of being broken. Yeah.

561
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 3: And I feel like we we had that discussion before

562
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 3: we got onto the mic about like we understood, like

563
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 3: the aunt was just asking a simple question because I'm

564
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 3: sure the aunt, being older, had fought for so long

565
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 3: for a feminist identity and being able to fight against misogyny,

566
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 3: but also that it's centered around the aunt's self and

567
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 3: her own perceptions, and how that's so dangerous and that's

568
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 3: this is what we talk about with white feminism. This

569
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 3: is what we talk about in allyship, when people don't

570
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 3: understand it's not about them, and so when they center

571
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 3: trying to be empathetic, they centered around themselves instead of

572
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 3: allowing it to be about that other person point blank.

573
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 3: And it's easy to do because it sounds like you're

574
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 3: trying to learn, and it sounds like you're making a

575
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 3: good point. But in actuality, you're making a selfish it's

576
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 3: a selfish assumption that's about your societal ideals versus what

577
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 3: the an individual is going through. And I think that's

578
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 3: for the whole Turf movement in itself, also just being bitter,

579
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 3: but in general.

580
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And it's a very.

581
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: I know better than you and I know about your

582
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 1: experience more than you type of mindset. And they did,

583
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 1: like like we said, they did come to an understanding.

584
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: But that is one of the questions Maya gets asked

585
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 1: about a lot. Is this conversation with the ant And

586
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: then there was a fun kind of moment of realization

587
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 1: with Lady Gaga where Maya was like, I was born

588
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: this way again?

589
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 3: Why Lady Gaga kind of a queer icon.

590
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then later at a queer comics convention, Maya

591
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: puts on an em air pen but struggles to correct

592
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: people who get it wrong. The whole experience inspired Maya

593
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: to make a comic and and Maya did get better

594
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: at correcting people. At air next gynecology exam, he explained

595
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: he experienced gender dysphoria, and the doctor agreed to do

596
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: what they could to make m comfortable. But the experience

597
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: was incredibly painful, and the doctor prescribed anxiety medication, which

598
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: is something else I've talked about. Maya then went to

599
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: a trans writes March, but realized he wasn't happy with

600
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: the clothes he had, so you went shopping for queer styles.

601
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: Maya started teaching comics classes to young folks, mostly those

602
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: A fab and started wondering if he was doing a

603
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: disservice and not correcting folks miss gendering m I E.

604
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: People would say, I never saw a woman doing this

605
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: growing up. So Maya decided to come out so children

606
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 1: could see a non binary person in air position, even

607
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: though you were worried it might get em fired.

608
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 2: And that's where it ends.

609
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: It ends on a very It's so tragic because it's

610
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: like a very hopeful message of like, I want to

611
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: inspire the next generation. I want people to see me,

612
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 1: I want people to know that this experience exists. But

613
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: then there's these concerns of oh I might get fired

614
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 1: right right, yeah.

615
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 3: And especially today, especially annoying. Air book is now on

616
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 3: bandless all over the country like the highest bandass. It

617
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 3: kind of came to fruition, whether it wanted them or

618
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 3: not it could be a but I feel like it's

619
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 3: a good way, like Kobe has made headway and it

620
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 3: made such a difference that it's that loud and it's amazing.

621
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 3: But I'm sure had had a known this was happening,

622
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 3: this would petrify them.

623
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

624
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: Well, and that's the thing is like when I was

625
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: reading this, I kept thinking, I wish I had had

626
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: this when I was young. Number one, and but two

627
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: what I talked about in are when Samantha was doing

628
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: the audiobook and we were also tired and the like

629
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus terminology, Like there's just this. I think it's

630
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: useful and that we need to talk about it, we

631
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 1: need words to talk about it. But it is true

632
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: that it's far from perfect because there's just so much

633
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: that you can't put in one letter when it comes

634
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: to gender identity, sexual orientation, just who you are. So

635
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: it's this was great because it's true, like there's just

636
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: so much that are hard to put into the terminology

637
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: we currently have. And as I've said several times, like

638
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: I didn't hear I heard asexual in the nineteen ninety

639
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: eight Godzilla movie as a joke about lizards, but I

640
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: didn't hear it like realistically until I was out of college,

641
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: and you know, it's unfortunate because there's that idea that

642
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: you know, I should have just known, but I I didn't.

643
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: I didn't know that that was the thing, that I

644
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: could be that way, identify it that way.

645
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 2: So like having this really kind of.

646
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: Kind look at that process of questioning if I don't

647
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: know for sure, if I still don't know for sure,

648
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: was just it was.

649
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 2: It was amazing. It was like I wish I.

650
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: Had had this right, and it is heartbreaking because it's

651
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: getting banned when the end messages we should share this

652
00:39:58,080 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: rubber people right.

653
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 3: And that's the thing is like books like these, it

654
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 3: gives an explanation for so many If the world was

655
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 3: perfect and we wouldn't people accepted what it was. I

656
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 3: don't think the conversation of pronouns would be this confusing

657
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 3: in general. I believe that, you know, keeping it generic

658
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 3: would have been just fine in itself. Not the not binary.

659
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 3: I'm saying generic like that that's like the you could

660
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 3: have just nothing, like just the just the experience of

661
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 3: nothing and just being like genderless. We've always been binary

662
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 3: to feel to hierarchy, and I think that's part of

663
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 3: the problem, and that's the underlying beginning of the issue.

664
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 3: That we can't just pretend like it was normal. It

665
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 3: was normal because it was building building a system. So

666
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 3: when we build a system and there has to be

667
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 3: a hierarchy, then you know that this is this is

668
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 3: meant to put someone down. This is meant to put

669
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 3: a group of people down, whatever the group might be.

670
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 3: And to pretend like that's not how it was set

671
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 3: up is naive in itself. I'm speaking very I guess

672
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 3: deeply at the same time, like generally in this but

673
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 3: that's the fact of the matter, and the reason it's

674
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 3: getting dwindled down and deeper and deeper and larger and

675
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 3: larger is because people continue to push binary ideas to

676
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,919
Speaker 3: the point that they take over and abuse a certain term,

677
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 3: it no longer gives the effect that it needs. So

678
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 3: it's kind of this level of like, no, this is

679
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 3: a battle, this is kind of a war based on

680
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 3: just decency and recognition. And that's the conversation that we're

681
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,399
Speaker 3: not having. And it would be lovely just to have

682
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 3: that genderless idea and just be there, just be there,

683
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 3: existing and not hurting each other. That would be a lovely,

684
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 3: lovely aspect. But this book is almost kind of testament

685
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 3: to what it feels like because they're because A is

686
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 3: having to figure out the simplicity through the difficulties, like

687
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 3: through the complications, because no one will allow it to

688
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 3: be simple. A simple is I don't want to be

689
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 3: a gender. I don't identify as these genders, I don't

690
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 3: identify in these sexualities. I just want to be and

691
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 3: just want to be loved in that and not have

692
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 3: the fear of that and being discovering that because it's

693
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 3: so radical, even though it's almost the simplest.

694
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: Right well, that was one of the things that really

695
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: struck me about reading this is that it's over and

696
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: over again clear that gender is a learned structure. And

697
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: because Maya grew up homeschools, it's when you see it

698
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,439
Speaker 1: from a child's eyes who didn't grow up with it,

699
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: I think you can really recognize how arbitrary a lot

700
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: of this stuff is of oh, I can't my hair

701
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: has to be this certain length, or oh I have

702
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: to wear these certain things, and it's just somebody like

703
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: societally telling you that you have to do that. But

704
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: if you are outside of that, it doesn't make any sense.

705
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense. And that whole idea I

706
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: really really related to, Like this idea like people have

707
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: access to a secret knowledge that you don't have because

708
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: if it, if you're not heteronormative, it doesn't make sense

709
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: to you, but it feels like it makes sense to

710
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,359
Speaker 1: everybody else, and you feel like then something is wrong

711
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: with you, or like you're not smart and you're not

712
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: picking up on something. And it's not that, like, it's

713
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 1: just we've we have these structures and how we think

714
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: people should have to be based on these hierarchies, like

715
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: you said.

716
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: And based on.

717
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: Just these roles we've told ourselves that people have told

718
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: us this is how it is. And so if you

719
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: don't fit into that, and that's kind of the key

720
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: is like the fitting in. That's kind of the issue

721
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 1: with the letters of the LGBTQ plus, which again I

722
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: think is useful but has its problems because if you're like, well,

723
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: I don't fit in here, and I don't fit in here,

724
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: like you're just always trying to find where you should go,

725
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 1: and if you've never heard of it before, of whatever

726
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 1: it is your feeling, if you've never talked to anybody

727
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: else who's felt that way or identified that way. It

728
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: can feel very much like lonely and that you are

729
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 1: are like I convinced myself I was in a face

730
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:28,280
Speaker 1: for a long time.

731
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 3: Right right, But this is that again, this comes back

732
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 3: to you have to label yourself to fit into the hierarchy.

733
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 3: You have to be able to label yourself to see

734
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 3: where you stand in society in general, and which place

735
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 3: you are and where you are on the structure, and

736
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 3: which is kind of that whole level of like, No,

737
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 3: the spectrum is a very useful conversation in that, at

738
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 3: the very least, the spectrum puts you on one line

739
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 3: with variations. Again, because it's not all black and white,

740
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 3: it's not concrete about what it is, and it it

741
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 3: doesn't really make sense that it should, to be honest,

742
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 3: if we fluctuate, and if we are people who change

743
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 3: and tastes or ideals or conversation or like beliefs, then

744
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,919
Speaker 3: why wouldn't everything else go with that? As simple as

745
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 3: like your fashion, your fashion may change and it's becomes androgynous,

746
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 3: too feminine, to masculine to whatever. It's kind of that

747
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 3: same level of what do you identify as in your style?

748
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 3: For me Grandma. Sure, I'm Grandma with my card again,

749
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 3: or maybe I'm mister Rogers. I could be definitely that too,

750
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 3: you know, I'm down down that road of spectrums. But

751
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,919
Speaker 3: like the conversation lies into that.

752
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 5: This, this whole book is a look at why structures

753
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 5: like this are damaging, can be confusing, and then overall

754
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 5: again ostracizing and lonely.

755
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 3: And I think that's why seeing this perspective is so

756
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 3: good because it's not necessarily like for me, it was

757
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 3: educational more than they also like relatable. It was educational,

758
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 3: but it also again it was so simple and that

759
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 3: in seeing how lonely A were and was throughout this process,

760
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 3: not because A wanted to be with somebody that was

761
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 3: not that that was not a goal, as goal was

762
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 3: trying to figure out why that didn't matter to him,

763
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 3: you know, and then feeling abnormal because I couldn't identify why,

764
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 3: and that that is it kind of brings back to

765
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 3: the conversation of like, I hate that A had to

766
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 3: even have this moment of themselves because A had to

767
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 3: really really focus on trying to figure themselves out and

768
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 3: lost a lot of just being themselves. Yeah.

769
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's also.

770
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 1: I had to kind of really examine some of my

771
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: own thoughts because when I was reading it, I did

772
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: have a moment of like, oh, oh, whoa, I can't

773
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: believe they have this in libraries, which is terrible. And

774
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 1: I thought about it, and I think one of the

775
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: big issues is we don't have sex education here. We

776
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: don't have it, and when we do, it is highly sexualized.

777
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: So like, if you haven't read it, which I highly

778
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: recommend that you do, there are sexual images, as we

779
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 1: mentioned at the top, but they're not like gratuitous or

780
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 1: graphic or explicit.

781
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 2: No, it's not.

782
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: And the thing is, if we had sex education, I

783
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: don't think we would be having as big of a

784
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: conversation about this, and we should have sex education because

785
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: that is just something we should be having. Like so

786
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: I do feel a lot of this for some of you,

787
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: and I will admit it like I had them, I

788
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,479
Speaker 1: would like, whoa, this is a girl who's reading damn

789
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 1: fan fiction to seventh grade, and that they had this

790
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: in schools. But then I was like, I don't think

791
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: it should be that way. I think it should be

792
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: the opposite way. I think we should be able to

793
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 1: read this in schools. As someone who at that age

794
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: would have related to it and would have really benefited

795
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 1: from it and not have it be quote obscene pornographic.

796
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,760
Speaker 1: We can't have kids reading this seeing.

797
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, in the sixth grade, I was reading

798
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 3: and watching renditions of Romeo and Juliet where a fourteen

799
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 3: year old gets married and then murdered. Yes, so I mean,

800
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 3: come on, like, that's what we grew up as educational

801
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 3: and this sixth grade really really jumped into like, oh,

802
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 3: this must be romance, right, this is true romance. No, bro,

803
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 3: that's not to be real real clear on that. But yeah,

804
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,399
Speaker 3: and then and when we're talking about sex education, we're

805
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 3: talking about nothing that exists here today, because when we're

806
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,439
Speaker 3: talking about sex education, what we're talking about is talking

807
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 3: about the spectrum of sexuality and why that's important, of

808
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 3: spectrum of gender identity, and why that's important. Understanding that

809
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 3: some of these things are traumatic versus some of the

810
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 3: things not like the whole conversation about guy mincologists. We

811
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 3: don't talk enough about that experience to young girls who

812
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 3: have to go in and not realize what is happening,

813
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 3: to be strapped up on a table and oftentimes with

814
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 3: men looking up your all your things when you've been

815
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 3: told that is private and no one's to see it

816
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 3: and everything should be covered up at all times, and

817
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 3: then not understanding like we demonize that in general because

818
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 3: you know, if it smells and you're dirty, or if

819
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 3: it's not perfectly shaven or clean, it's dirty. All these

820
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 3: conversations and not even sure how to clean it, Like

821
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 3: we're not even having that conversation that level of what

822
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 3: we're talking about in sexuality, having a conversation about this

823
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 3: is what birth control bill is is not just for

824
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 3: you having like if you sexual act that it can

825
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 3: before regularly in your period, which can be bad. And y'all,

826
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 3: it's not normal to be hurting this much. I really

827
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 3: thought I was. I really thought I was supposed to

828
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 3: be hurting with clots that were like quarter size coming

829
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 3: out of my body and then being told later, no,

830
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 3: that's not normal. Oh what, Oh okay, that's not normal,

831
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,760
Speaker 3: and not in Philly figuring it out till my mid twenties,

832
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 3: being petrified and then being quiet because I thought, this

833
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 3: pain is supposed to be normal, right once again, and

834
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 3: that's part of that conversation. Also being whatever shame it

835
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 3: is to your body is not okay, but being told

836
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 3: that that's normal, right to cover it up, Like we

837
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 3: don't talk about any of those things that it should

838
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 3: be talked about. And yes, men should hear about it,

839
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 3: and boys should hear about it, and they need to

840
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 3: understand it so they can shut the hell up when

841
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:47,879
Speaker 3: we're saying we're having a period. We have and you're

842
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 3: gonna get pushed out if you look at me wrong.

843
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, it's true. I think that one of

844
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: the key things when I was reading this was that

845
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 1: kind of shame. We have shamed so much of these

846
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: conversations around sexuality and gender identity and women's bodies and

847
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 1: like kind of coology being wrapped up in that I've

848
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: talked before, like my first kind ofcology exam I was fifteen.

849
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: Any traumatized, Like, no joke, I still think about it.

850
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: It's the first horror story I've wrote on thirteen Days

851
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: Halloween is based on it. Like, yes, it traumatized me.

852
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 3: And you're not the only one. And then we talked

853
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 3: about Iud's and I know Kristen and Caroline did an

854
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 3: episode because Caroline talks about her experience versus my experience.

855
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 3: But that's these like people come in but it's just on.

856
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 3: You're fine, You're fine. And then people vomiting and having

857
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 3: the experiences like of being in pain for years because

858
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 3: they can't say the right things or whatever whatnot. And yeah,

859
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 3: I think that's again that bigger point of like, Okay,

860
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 3: when we talk about sex ed, we're talking about everything.

861
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 3: We should be preparing people for whatever, for men too,

862
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 3: for boys to about like it's normal to have erections

863
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 3: this time that time, it's not normal to act out

864
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 3: on it or anything. You know what I'm saying, Like

865
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 3: any and all the things should be talked about in

866
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 3: front of each other. If it's so embarrassing. Yeah, you

867
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 3: can split the you know, genders up however you want

868
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 3: to do it, but they still talk about it. Just

869
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 3: because one gender is not there shouldn't doesn't mean that

870
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 3: it shouldn't be discussed about. And yeah, and talking about

871
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 3: real feelings. And then I love the reference to the

872
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 3: book with the doctor who talks about breaking down of

873
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 3: sexuality and as it not being like you may have

874
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 3: a female body with a lot of more testosterones, so

875
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 3: therefore you are more masculine in like feels and hormones,

876
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 3: and yeah, you see that as evident when you meet

877
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 3: certain people you're like, yeah, this is this is prevalent,

878
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 3: Like biologically it's prevalent. You can see this. And I

879
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 3: love that Maya talks about feeling heard and seen after

880
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 3: reading the book and realizing, oh, it is biological, the

881
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 3: reference to I'm born this way, but we should have

882
00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 3: that level of biological conversation. Yeah, then just those straight

883
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 3: by there you have a penis, you have a vagina,

884
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 3: congratulations or I'm sorry.

885
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 2: I have an episode. I want to come back to you.

886
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 1: Because I was talking with some people at D and

887
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: D the other day and we were talking about a

888
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 1: career days and it's amazing how damn gendered they were.

889
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: And I got a sheet that was just it just

890
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 1: said all about you, and it was the female body

891
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,280
Speaker 1: and it just had arrows pointing at things.

892
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,360
Speaker 2: And I was supposed to take this and learn anything

893
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 2: anything from that, right, So it is.

894
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: It's true, Like and I think that was something else,

895
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: you know, finding that peace from that doctor and having

896
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: things click into place. But there was also a lot

897
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: of as you know, I loved a lot of the

898
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 1: kind of important of representation and entertainment or just in

899
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: general or just like finding ways to work through things.

900
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 1: It did break my heart that Harry Potter was in

901
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,879
Speaker 1: there because now we know I'm I'm in the boat.

902
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 1: I'm in the same boat. But like Tamora Piers and

903
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: Mercedes Lackey. There was a Johnny Weird cosplay erotic gay

904
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 1: fan fiction, which I feel like so many people, that's

905
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,280
Speaker 1: something else. People are like, but you don't like sex,

906
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 1: and they're like, well, sometimes you just want people. It's

907
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:31,760
Speaker 1: like almost about them being happy.

908
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 2: I know you're into it. I want you to get

909
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 2: it if you are. There was mention of Nana Raimo.

910
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: There was sellers of Katan yees yay boo yay.

911
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 5: No.

912
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 4: Yeah.

913
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: I think that was one of my biggest At the end,

914
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: I just wished that I had had this as a

915
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:00,040
Speaker 1: young person, because you don't you don't know, and no

916
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 1: one's helping us to be honest, like I got it

917
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: about Me worksheet and that was the end, Like so

918
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 1: I know, and it's getting worse, Like I wasn't about

919
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: this and now they're all these bands.

920
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 3: Well it's getting worse, but it's getting better because I

921
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 3: feel like my niece Gracie, who has been in a

922
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 3: plethora of relationships as of recent with tchans, non binary, polyamorous,

923
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 3: all the people, and I'm like, wow, my niece who

924
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 3: has grown up in a very conservative I was worried

925
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,760
Speaker 3: about her a little bit when she was retweeting Donald

926
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 3: Trump at one point, way back when, way back when, y'allah,

927
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 3: way back when she has grown and learned. I'm very

928
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 3: proud of her, But like seeing that that being a

929
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 3: simple like, yeah it is. Why wouldn't I? How is

930
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 3: this not normal? Like bringing them home and meeting the

931
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 3: conservative family members and not and being proud of bringing

932
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 3: them home, you know, like I when I would bring

933
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 3: home friends, I remember being like warning my parents, they

934
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 3: have ear rings, a lot of piercings, they have a

935
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 3: nos ering. Yeah, don't react like my parents, you know,

936
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 3: like stuff like that. But to see my Knees, who

937
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 3: is a young twenties really taken in on that, and

938
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 3: really her whole group of friends, most of them have

939
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 3: come away from that conservative line to this is the

940
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,360
Speaker 3: new normal. And I love love seeing that and that

941
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 3: this day and age, Yes, these big book bands are happening,

942
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 3: and the conservatives are doing this, but it's not working

943
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 3: like they think of this. When it comes to the

944
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 3: younger generations they give no shits, and they have social

945
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 3: media and they spread it even farther. And I love

946
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,800
Speaker 3: seeing that. I love that keeping on because that is

947
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 3: the new attitude. And we talked previously like when they

948
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 3: were banning books, previously there was pushback, but obviously the

949
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 3: banning of the books from the nineteen fifties to the

950
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 3: nineteen nineties to today has vastly changed because the pushback

951
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 3: is different and the generations who are wanting these bands

952
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 3: happen are typically dying off, Like Delfle.

953
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 2: No, You're totally right, Like I do think.

954
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 1: As I said, I'm really glad that we read this book,

955
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: but I don't know that we would have read it

956
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: without the book band. And I think that it is

957
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: getting a lot of traction, uh because of it, and

958
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: because it's good.

959
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 2: It's good, and.

960
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: I kind of hate that Maya keeps having to talk

961
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 1: about people just interviewing and for about book bands, when

962
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 1: the whole thing is it's so good and it's so

963
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: it's just like I said, it's it felt like reading

964
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: a diary, but it felt so novel because I've never

965
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 1: really heard anybody talk about it. Even though I literally

966
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: left thinking I've got to re examine some I've talked

967
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 1: about myself.

968
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 3: I was like, this amazing moment, and I think again,

969
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 3: the way Maya Gobabe does this book, it is geared

970
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 3: towards those who are lost today because they felt isolated.

971
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 3: So it's it's a youthful interpretation of more themes that

972
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 3: you could tell A want of this themselves as a youth,

973
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,479
Speaker 3: and so A is writing it to themselves as a youth,

974
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 3: if that makes sense. And I love that because A

975
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:41,439
Speaker 3: adds on so many great scientific things, references so many

976
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 3: new words or new concepts that meaning people may not

977
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 3: have known, but does it in such an open and

978
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 3: vulnerable way that it is again looks like a love letter,

979
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 3: but at the same time and an admonishment to themselves

980
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 3: as a youth for not only to help with their struggles,

981
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 3: but also to encourage others in whomever else is struggling.

982
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 3: So it's like all of these things is beautifully done.

983
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 2: It really is.

984
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 1: I did have a lot of it hit close to home,

985
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 1: like I was just reading it thinking, oh, yeah, I

986
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 1: just I was telling you before, Samantha, like I hated

987
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 1: having breasts as a kid, to the point like it

988
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 1: was a running joke amongst my friends that I hated it,

989
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 1: and I always assumed it was because I had all

990
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: this trauma and I like knew they draw they drew attention,

991
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: which could be true. But after reading this, I was like,

992
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 1: I wonder something else could be true as well. It's

993
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: just that's the power of this kind of story of

994
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 1: like this kind of sharing and openness is it invites

995
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 1: other people to understand more about others but also themselves.

996
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 2: So it really did hit. I was reading it like,

997
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 2: oh damn.

998
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 3: Oh, I think we were both thinking of you.

999
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 2: I was shocked.

1000
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 1: I was, and then like we already talked about this,

1001
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 1: but just to be clear, like this whole idea, it's

1002
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: not rejecting womanhood. I really liked this quote towards the end,

1003
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 1: which was a description of gender as a landscape. Some

1004
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 1: are born in the mountains, some at sea level, some

1005
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: are happy where they are born, but others want to

1006
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 1: move right a simple as that, Like you said.

1007
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 3: It's simple. That's again, if if people could just take

1008
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 3: it as the story of Maya Kobabe and not women

1009
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 3: in general or men in general. It's that simple, Like

1010
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 3: it didn't even cross my mind that this was anything

1011
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 3: concerning womanhood right until A wrote about the aunt and

1012
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:02,120
Speaker 3: I was like, oh no, it's obvious. And again this

1013
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 3: is different because we have our book to tell us

1014
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 3: straightforward what it's about, as where when A was talking

1015
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 3: to the on just heard different pronouns, don't want to

1016
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 3: be a woman? What type of conversation. So again not

1017
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 3: saying the aunt was bad or the villain in this

1018
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 3: book at all. But the fact of the matter is,

1019
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 3: if you take it as this is about Maya cobabe

1020
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 3: and air experience and any person who fills neither of

1021
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 3: these binary words fit them. It has nothing to do

1022
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 3: with womanhood period as a whole. It has nothing to

1023
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 3: do with me describing myself as a woman period. So

1024
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 3: I don't understand how that's offensive or an attack. So

1025
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 3: let's just and I don't see that as a misogynistic

1026
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 3: inter turmoil for A at all. It is literally just

1027
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 3: the turmoil that they've that A've been struggling with the

1028
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 3: entirety of their life and trying to find a point

1029
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 3: of being happy.

1030
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I do think it's worth reflecting on,

1031
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 1: like I said, the limitations of language, because we did gender.

1032
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 1: Not all languages are gendered, and that's not to say

1033
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 1: that they don't have issues either, but not all languages

1034
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 1: of gender.

1035
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 3: And it makes sense or it's much like again the

1036
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 3: indigenous people who talks about being too spirited, and that's

1037
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 3: an open wide of all the things, whether it's being

1038
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:31,400
Speaker 3: both or neither right right.

1039
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: So that's something to always keep in mind in this

1040
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 1: and it's it is unfortunate because, like I said, if

1041
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,240
Speaker 1: I had known about this, it could have changed the

1042
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 1: course of my life. And you know, the learning of

1043
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 1: it's still problematic in terms of you know, just because

1044
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 1: you learn a new word, it doesn't necessarily change, but

1045
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: it gives you something to be like, Okay, that makes

1046
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 1: sense to me, and maybe the word for what you

1047
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: are doesn't exist. And like I said, it's so vast,

1048
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 1: it's so vast that some words can't like maybe just

1049
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 1: one word can't capture it. But yeah, I really I

1050
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 1: recommend it.

1051
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 2: I really really enjoyed it. I love the fan fiction bits.

1052
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 1: If we weren't going along, I would just go into

1053
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 1: that because I was like, yes, yes, but yes, we

1054
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 1: recommend that you check it out if you haven't already.

1055
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 1: As always, we would love to hear your suggestions for

1056
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 1: our next pick. You can email us at Stephandmom Steph

1057
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 1: at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter

1058
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok as

1059
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: Stephan ever Told You, also on YouTube. Also, we have

1060
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:54,000
Speaker 1: a tea public store. Also, we have a book you

1061
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: can pre order. You can pre order it at stuff

1062
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,720
Speaker 1: you Should read Books dot com or on Audible. Things

1063
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:03,439
Speaker 1: is always Too. Our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya,

1064
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey. Thank you all, yes, and thanks

1065
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 1: to you for listening. Stefan Never Told You is production

1066
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you

1067
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 1: can check out the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1068
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 1: where you listen to your favorite shows.