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Speaker 1: Terms apply. Hey, Orgey, do you ever wish you had

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Speaker 1: more than two arms?

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Speaker 3: That would be weird, but sometimes it would be useful.

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Speaker 3: You know, if you're a parent, you're carrying around a

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Speaker 3: couple of kids'd be great to have extra arms.

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Speaker 1: Well, is it more arms that you want or more hands?

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Speaker 3: I think what I want is maybe more brains. That

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Speaker 3: would be handy. Then I can have twice a number

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Speaker 3: of thoughts, or one of them could think while the

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Speaker 3: other one naps, and then they can take turns.

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Speaker 1: I think I already have more ideas than my arms

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Speaker 1: and hands can handle.

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Speaker 3: Sounds like you less brains than.

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Speaker 1: Or more arms, Like a whole army of arms.

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Speaker 3: That would be pretty handy. It would be quite a handful.

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Speaker 3: I am poor hand cartoonists and the creator of PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor

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Speaker 1: at UC Irvine, and I'm pretty sure I could make

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Speaker 1: use of a third arm if it had a hand

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Speaker 1: attached to it.

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Speaker 3: Where would you put it though? In your body, Like

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Speaker 3: at the top of your head. That would be useful.

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Speaker 1: I was just gonna say it top of my head, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: You could like scratch your nose or scratch your back

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Speaker 1: even that would be pretty handy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But how would you scratch your arm?

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Speaker 1: I'd have two other arms for that job, but would

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Speaker 1: they reach I think the more interesting question is how

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Speaker 1: you would call them, Like is it your right arm,

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Speaker 1: you left arm, and your top arm, or you're like

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Speaker 1: your dominant arm, subdominant arm, and your sub subdominant arm.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you could call it like your color arm or

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Speaker 3: your weak art.

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Speaker 1: What if it's extra strong though on the top of

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Speaker 1: my head anyway, lots of fun things to think.

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Speaker 3: About, Yeah, because it is a fun universe with a

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Speaker 3: lot to think about. There are a lot of stars

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Speaker 3: and galaxies and amazing objects and invisible matter and invisible

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Speaker 3: energy out there for us to wonder about and to

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Speaker 3: have questions about.

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Speaker 1: No matter which arm you like to use to scratch

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Speaker 1: your head.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe,

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Speaker 3: a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we dig into all of the heads scratching

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Speaker 1: mysteries about the universe, why it looks the way it does,

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Speaker 1: what color it is, if we can even possibly understand it,

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Speaker 1: Why everything out there seems to be spinning, and why

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Speaker 1: they spin in such beautiful, worly patterns. We dig into

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Speaker 1: all of the mysteries of the universe, from the tiny

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Speaker 1: quantum particles to the inside of black holes, to the

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Speaker 1: edge of the universe, to its very beginning and its

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Speaker 1: very end, because we love these mysteries, and we love

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Speaker 1: marinating in our understanding and our ignorance.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because there are beautiful patterns out there in the universe.

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Speaker 3: Patterns in color, patterns, in shape patterns, also in mysteries.

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Speaker 3: It seems like the universe has sort of a recurring

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Speaker 3: pattern of always having things that are difficult to explain

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Speaker 3: or that don't reveal how they work right away.

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Speaker 1: It is interesting that the universe is mysterious, but not

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Speaker 1: so mysterious that we can't make progress. It's like we

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Speaker 1: are just smart enough to understand like the next chunk

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Speaker 1: of physics, but not so smart that we figure it

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Speaker 1: all out right away, but also not so dumb that

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Speaker 1: it's totally a mystery to us. We seem to be

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Speaker 1: sort of like fine tuned to be entertained by the

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Speaker 1: mysteries of this universe.

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Speaker 3: You're seeing we're like the goldilocks of all species in

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Speaker 3: the universe. But how do you know this, Daniel, How

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Speaker 3: do you know we're not behind? How do you know

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Speaker 3: we're not actually like at the back of the class roster.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we could be. There might be aliens out there

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Speaker 1: that like figured out the physics of the universe and

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Speaker 1: about ten seconds. But what I'm saying is that maybe

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Speaker 1: this is more fun. Maybe it's more fun to like

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Speaker 1: be a little confused for a while and then figure

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Speaker 1: something out, rather than just have the entire theory of

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Speaker 1: everything come to you in a single flash of insight.

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Speaker 3: That sounds like something a student who's not doing well

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Speaker 3: in school might say, like, Hey, I got an F

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Speaker 3: because it's F is for fun.

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Speaker 1: It's more like somebody who wants to keep the mysteries

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Speaker 1: alive because it's part of my job. I mean, if

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Speaker 1: we like solid physics tomorrow, then what would I do

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Speaker 1: the rest of my life?

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Speaker 3: Is that what you tell the funding agencies, like, Hey,

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Speaker 3: you paid me all this money and I haven't figured

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Speaker 3: anything out, but I'm having a lot of fun. And

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Speaker 3: really what's more important than that.

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Speaker 1: It's the friends you make along the way to figuring

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Speaker 1: out the universe.

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Speaker 3: That's right. I got an F on my research paper,

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Speaker 3: but F stands for friends and fun, not funding.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just people like me you were wondering

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Speaker 1: about the nature of the universe and enjoying thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: It's everybody sciences of the people, by the people, and

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Speaker 1: for the people, and that includes me and you. It

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Speaker 1: includes anybody who thinks about the universe, wonders why it

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Speaker 1: works the way that does, and tries to figure it out.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Everybody has questions, and sometimes we even answer

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Speaker 3: those questions on this podcast, although sometimes the answer is

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Speaker 3: we don't know.

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Speaker 1: All too often the answer is we don't know, so

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Speaker 1: give us some money to figure it out. Stay tuned,

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Speaker 1: But we encourage everybody out there to engage with their curiosity,

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Speaker 1: to look out the universe and connect with their personal questions.

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Speaker 1: You know, something that I think maybe people don't appreciate

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Speaker 1: is how science is driven by individual people's curiosity. The

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Speaker 1: reason we study this and not that, the reason people

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Speaker 1: investigate the mating patterns of South American bats is because

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Speaker 1: somebody has decided that that's the most important question, the

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Speaker 1: one to dedicate their life to. So I like to

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Speaker 1: encourage people to think about what is your most important question.

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Speaker 1: If you could ask a single question of the universe

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Speaker 1: and get an answer, what would it be. And so

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Speaker 1: we encourage our listener to think about the universe and

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Speaker 1: to write to au us with their questions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we get questions all the time, and sometimes we

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Speaker 3: even answer them on the podcast. We will pull up

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Speaker 3: a question that we get and we'll try to give

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Speaker 3: you our best answer on the air.

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Speaker 1: That's Right. We answer all of our questions that listeners

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Speaker 1: send us to questions at Danielanjorge dot com. But sometimes

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Speaker 1: there's one that I think is especially intriguing or requires

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Speaker 1: a little bit of background research, and so we answer

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Speaker 1: it here on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: And so today on the program, we'll be tackling listener

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Speaker 3: questions episode number thirty six of our listener question series.

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Speaker 1: That's Right, which puts us well above one hundred in

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Speaker 1: terms of questions answered on air.

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Speaker 3: And do we have a theme for this set of questions?

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Speaker 1: This one's sort of like big questions about the big universe.

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Speaker 3: I see the usual, then.

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Speaker 1: Everything exactly.

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Speaker 3: Today we have questions about questions exactly.

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Speaker 1: These fall into the big questions category.

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Speaker 3: All right, big questions Here today we have three awesome

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Speaker 3: questions about the shape of our galaxy, about the color

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Speaker 3: of the universe, and also about whether the universe is

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Speaker 3: maybe tearing itself apart. You mean emotionally or like, physically.

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Speaker 1: I think first physically and then emotionally.

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Speaker 3: If you tear yourself apart physically, then if you want

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Speaker 3: to really be able to tear yourself apart emotionally.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. Depending on how the universe collapses, you

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Speaker 1: might not have time for an emotional response.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's dig into these questions because they're pretty interesting.

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Speaker 3: The first one comes from Matt from Indiana.

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Speaker 5: Hey, Daniel and Hore, this is Matt from Indiana. I

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Speaker 5: was just reading an article which has some of the

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Speaker 5: most recent Hubble pictures now that it's successfully returned to

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Speaker 5: prime time. The question I have is about the galaxy

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Speaker 5: arp m ador zero zero zero two dash five oh three.

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Speaker 5: NASA is saying it's noteworthy as it only has three

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Speaker 5: arms to it, and most spiral galaxies have even numbers.

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Speaker 5: Why wouldn't we find an equal amount of even an

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Speaker 5: odd armed disc galaxies symmetry. I'm perplexed on this. Thanks

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Speaker 5: for your time, Matt.

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Speaker 3: All right, awesome question for Matt. He's asking not about

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Speaker 3: the milk away, but a different galaxy than the Hubble

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Speaker 3: telescope has found.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we have imaged so many galaxies. You know, when

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Speaker 1: you look up at the night sky, you mostly see stars,

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Speaker 1: but behind those are tiny little smudges which are galaxies.

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Speaker 1: And as we saw from the recent James Webs based

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Speaker 1: telescope images, every tiny little dot of sky is filled

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Speaker 1: with galaxies and they have lots of really interesting shapes

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Speaker 1: and characteristics. And so now we have lots and lots

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Speaker 1: of examples of what other galaxies look like. And Matt

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Speaker 1: is asking about one particular one that NASA said was

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Speaker 1: a little weird.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and he spelled out the name of it. Maybe

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Speaker 3: we should spell it out again in case anyone wants

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Speaker 3: to look it up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's galaxy ARP Dash M A. D ore Than.

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Speaker 1: The number is two one one five Dash two seven three.

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Speaker 1: And we'll put a link to NASA's page about this

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Speaker 1: in the show notes.

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Speaker 3: They just got a catchy name.

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Speaker 1: My daughter. It sounds like I Love you or something.

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Speaker 3: Well, if you look up the image and the link

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Speaker 3: in our website, you'll see basically a picture of our galaxy.

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Speaker 3: But it looks kind of interesting because it's got two

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Speaker 3: short arms, but then one long arm on the bottom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, lots of these spiral galaxies have the same basic

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Speaker 1: features you have, like a central bar and then some

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Speaker 1: arms swirling around them. And this one is a little

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Speaker 1: weird because ye as you say, it has two sort

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Speaker 1: of shorter arms and one longer arm. And that's the

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Speaker 1: thing that Matt picked up on. That the fact that

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Speaker 1: this has three arms, and according to this press release,

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Speaker 1: having an odd number of arms, like not two or

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Speaker 1: four or six is a little weird.

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Speaker 3: You mean, it's a little odd you have an odd

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Speaker 3: number of arms, because I think we're kind of used

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Speaker 3: to arms coming in pairs, right.

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Speaker 1: I certainly have two arms, though i'd like a third.

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Speaker 1: But if we're talking about galaxies, then it sort of

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Speaker 1: makes conceptual sense to imagine them being even numbers, like

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Speaker 1: or basically there's just two arms because you have the

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Speaker 1: central bar and then the arms swirling off around it.

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Speaker 1: But it turns out that galaxy arms are a lot

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Speaker 1: more complicated than you might imagine.

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Speaker 3: Hmmm, well, let's dig into it. First of all, why

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Speaker 3: do galaxies even have arms? And I guess maybe we

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Speaker 3: should define what we mean by arms. It's kind of

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Speaker 3: like a you look at a picture of a galaxy,

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Speaker 3: you see a cluster of stars, but then you see

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Speaker 3: these kind of like tendrils, these rows of stars kind

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Speaker 3: of swirling from the center of it. That's what an

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Speaker 3: arm is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so we tend to call these things spiral arms.

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Speaker 1: And there's really two things going on there, the spiral

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Speaker 1: nature of them and the arms. Right, So let's first

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Speaker 1: talk about like why are these things spiraling at all?

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Speaker 1: Why is there a spiral pattern in the galaxy? And

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Speaker 1: that just comes from the fact that the galaxy is spinning.

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Speaker 1: So everything in space is spinning, and as it collapses,

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Speaker 1: it spins faster and faster. But things at different distance

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Speaker 1: from the center of the galaxy don't always rotate at

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Speaker 1: the same number of angles per second. Instead, they tend

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Speaker 1: to move through space at the same linear speed. So

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Speaker 1: galaxies don't rotate like a DVD or a compact disc,

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Speaker 1: where like every point along some line rotates with the

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Speaker 1: same angular speed. It's more like they rotate like runners

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Speaker 1: going around a track, where people on the outside tend

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Speaker 1: to fall behind even if they're running at the same speed.

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Speaker 3: Well, maybe let's take it a step back. Because you

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Speaker 3: mentioned everything is always spinning. What does that mean? Why

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Speaker 3: are things in space necessarily spinning? Or do you mean,

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Speaker 3: like everything's moving but relative to like the center of

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Speaker 3: gravity or the center of a cluster of stuff, you're

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Speaker 3: sort of spinning around that.

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Speaker 1: So everything in space is sort of whizzing around. And

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Speaker 1: remember that spinning is relative to an axis. You like,

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Speaker 1: draw a line through space and say, are things moving

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Speaker 1: around this point? And so you can pick any axis

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Speaker 1: you like. You know, pick like the center of the sun.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense to think about the motion of the

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Speaker 1: Solar system, or you know, the north south axis of

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Speaker 1: the Earth. But you really could pick anything, But it

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Speaker 1: makes most sense to pick like the center of mass

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Speaker 1: of a big blob of stuff and ask are things

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Speaker 1: moving around this center of mass? And because everything is

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Speaker 1: sort of flying around through space, it's not stationary with

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Speaker 1: respect to like the center, then all that stuff tends

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Speaker 1: to add up to some spinning. Like it's possible for

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Speaker 1: a huge blocks of stuff to not be spinning, but

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Speaker 1: that would require everything inside of it to like exactly

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Speaker 1: balance all of its motion, it's sort of unlikely, like

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Speaker 1: flipping a million coins and having exactly fifty percent of

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Speaker 1: them land up heads. So any big blob of stuff

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Speaker 1: tends to have some spin around its center.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I guess you know, things tend to fly

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Speaker 3: in a straight line in space. But once you get

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Speaker 3: a bunch of it sort of in the same area,

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Speaker 3: it's going to have some gravity and it's going to

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Speaker 3: start pulling stuff inwards towards the center of massive that blob,

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Speaker 3: and that's where the kind of the spinning happens, right,

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Speaker 3: That's where the circular emotion happens. And so that's why

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Speaker 3: everything's kind of spinning around a galaxy cluster.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm exactly. And as that's been happens, it very

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Speaker 1: naturally forms a spiral pattern, right, because things that the

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Speaker 1: outside get left behind. They're not spinning as fast as

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Speaker 1: things closer in. Like if you're really close to the center,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't take you as long to go all the

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Speaker 1: way around the galaxy. For example, if you're really far

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Speaker 1: out and you're moving at the same speed, takes you

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Speaker 1: a lot longer to go all the way around the

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Speaker 1: gall So things in the outside tend to get left behind,

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Speaker 1: and that's why you end up with spiral patterns in

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Speaker 1: the galaxy. But that doesn't explain why you get arms. Right,

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Speaker 1: if you just have like a big blob of stuff

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Speaker 1: and it was spinning and collapsing, it would tend to

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Speaker 1: sort of like wind itself up. You wouldn't necessarily get

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Speaker 1: blobs like arms. So the spinning explains the spiral nature,

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Speaker 1: but not the arms.

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Speaker 3: Right, Like, if you had a big blob of stuff

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Speaker 3: out there in space that was evenly distributed, like a

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Speaker 3: hazy cloud, and then you just got it going, you

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Speaker 3: would think it would just kind of like swirl towards

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Speaker 3: the center, kind of like a toilet, right, There'd be

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Speaker 3: no clustering. It's just like a tornado, like an even

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Speaker 3: swirl down to the center.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like if you put a fork in spaghetti and

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Speaker 1: spin it, you're gonna end up with lots and lots

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Speaker 1: and lots of strands, not like a few big clumps.

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Speaker 1: But what we see in galaxies is if we got

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Speaker 1: like really big chunks, we got like two or four

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Speaker 1: or three in this case chunks of stuff flying out

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Speaker 1: in this spiral pattern.

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Speaker 3: Or more like the three giant or three or four

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Speaker 3: giant spaghetti noodles, right, instead of like a bunch of

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Speaker 3: little spaghetti noodles. Somehow the spaghetti's kind of cluster into

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Speaker 3: giant strands of spaghetti.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly like metapasta or something megapasta formations. And so

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Speaker 1: a lot of people think that when you're looking at

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Speaker 1: a galaxy and you're looking at these spiral arms, that

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Speaker 1: you're looking at structures of matter, that like, the arms

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Speaker 1: are a blob of stars like a blob of spaghetti,

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Speaker 1: and that whole arm is sort of rotating, that the

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Speaker 1: stars are moving with the arm. But that's actually not

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Speaker 1: the case. The arms are not structures of matter. They're

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Speaker 1: just density waves. They're more like traffic patterns in cars,

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Speaker 1: you know, like a traffic wave can move along the highway,

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Speaker 1: making some cars slow down and some cars speed up

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Speaker 1: or clump together. But the cars don't necessarily move with

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Speaker 1: those waves in the same way the arms in the

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Speaker 1: galaxy are rotating. But stars don't necessarily rotate with the arms.

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Speaker 1: They can be left behind by the arm, the arm

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Speaker 1: can catch up with them. The stars don't move with

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Speaker 1: the arms.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, what do you mean, because it

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Speaker 3: aren't the arms made of stars, Like if we can

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Speaker 3: see them in the night sky in space. That means

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Speaker 3: it's bright, and so that means we're seeing the stars

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Speaker 3: in them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they are made of stars, for sure, the same

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Speaker 1: with the like traffic patterns are made of cars. But

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Speaker 1: the things that make the arm the arm is that

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Speaker 1: there's a denser spot of stars. There's more stars there

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Speaker 1: than somewhere else. But as the arm moves, it sort

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Speaker 1: of moves through the stars the same way that like

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Speaker 1: waves move through water, but the individual particles of water

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily move with the wave. Right, the wave is

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Speaker 1: motion of the water.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I see what you're saying. You're saying, like if

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Speaker 3: I looked at a sped up or fast forwarded movie

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Speaker 3: of a galaxy, I would see it looking like it's

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Speaker 3: a squirrel, like it's spinning. But it's not actually spinning,

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Speaker 3: you're saying. It just has these waves running through it

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Speaker 3: that go around.

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Speaker 1: The waves are spinning. But if you tracked a wave

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Speaker 1: and you also tracked an individual star, you would not

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Speaker 1: necessarily see them move together. Like a star can be

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Speaker 1: part of an arm and then later not part of

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Speaker 1: an arm, and then part of another arm.

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Speaker 3: WHOA, and so how do we know this because we

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Speaker 3: haven't been looking long enough for us to see that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really interesting idea. It's only been around

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Speaker 1: for a few decades, and it's not one hundred percent certain.

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Speaker 1: Though in the last few years we've got some evidence

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Speaker 1: that this is true because we've looked at the color

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Speaker 1: of light in these stars. Because the galactic arms tend

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Speaker 1: to be aligned with star formation, these galactic arms are

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Speaker 1: places of greater density, which means you get more stars

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Speaker 1: being made because you're compressing the gas. So you tend

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Speaker 1: to have younger stars in the arms as they are forming,

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Speaker 1: and younger stars tend to be bluer because bluer stars

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Speaker 1: don't live as long. So anyway, that long story is short.

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Speaker 1: You can look at the pattern of color in these

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Speaker 1: arms and you can see sort of how old they

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Speaker 1: are and the age of stars within the arms, and

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Speaker 1: so you can sort of confirm this hypothesis. So I

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Speaker 1: should say it's not one hundred percent totally established.

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Speaker 3: So you're saying that arms of a galaxy are actually

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Speaker 3: kind of like waves that are going through the huge

401
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,360
Speaker 3: cloud of stars in a galaxy. Watch costing these waves.

402
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 1: So these are density waves, so they're just caused by

403
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Speaker 1: things not being totally smooth the same way like all

404
00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,840
Speaker 1: gravitational effects are. If you have a little perturbation things

405
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,399
Speaker 1: aren't totally smooth, then gravity tends to pull on that

406
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Speaker 1: and exaggerate it. So gravity will take a little perturbation

407
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,720
Speaker 1: in like a totally smooth clump and turn it into

408
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 1: larger and larger perturbations. So it's not again totally understood

409
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Speaker 1: where these come from and why they last so long.

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Speaker 1: But they think they come from original density perturbations and

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Speaker 1: like the central clump of the galaxy.

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Speaker 3: So they are structures. Then you said earlier that they

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Speaker 3: weren't structures. So it is there because the stuff in

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Speaker 3: it is kind of holding together gravitationally.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's a density structure. It's not like a

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Speaker 1: matter structure. It's not like the same stars are sweeping

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Speaker 1: around and staying in the arm. There is a structure there.

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Speaker 1: It's the density.

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Speaker 3: Structure, right, And then you're saying the density is caused

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Speaker 3: by the gravity between them. So like, let's say I'm

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Speaker 3: a planet or I'm a star around a galaxy. What's

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Speaker 3: going to make me want to join one of these waves?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's sort of sweeping through the galaxy and it

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Speaker 1: creates regions with higher gravity and regions with lesser gravity.

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Speaker 1: And so some stars are like getting pulled towards these things,

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Speaker 1: and some stars are getting left behind, right, And so

427
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Speaker 1: that's how a density wave propagates, right, It creates regions

428
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Speaker 1: of greater and lesser force, which tends to apply differential

429
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Speaker 1: forces on the stars.

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Speaker 3: Right. But unlike a wave and water, you have forces

431
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Speaker 3: that pull and push, right, Like something behind you pushes

432
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Speaker 3: you forward, but then something in front of you pushes

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Speaker 3: you back. And that's kind of how the wave occurs.

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Speaker 3: But in gravity, gravity only attracts. So what moves the

435
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Speaker 3: wave forward?

436
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Speaker 1: Well, what's moving the wave forward? Like at the forefront

437
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Speaker 1: of the wave, it's dense, so it's pulling those stars

438
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,479
Speaker 1: towards it, right, So the density of the arm creates

439
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,239
Speaker 1: a denser region in front of it.

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Speaker 3: Oh I see, So the wave in front of it

441
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 3: eats up more stars, which moves the center of gravity

442
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,120
Speaker 3: of the arm forward, which then leaves behind the stars

443
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:05,640
Speaker 3: behind it.

444
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,080
Speaker 1: Mm hmm exactly. And so that's how a density wave propagates.

445
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,159
Speaker 1: And what's really interesting to me is that the velocity

446
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 1: of the arms is not the same as the velocity

447
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,119
Speaker 1: of the stars. That means where your star is in

448
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 1: the galaxy determines whether these density waves are passing you

449
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,120
Speaker 1: or whether you're passing them right, Like, for example, our

450
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 1: sun moves around the center of the galaxy at a

451
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,919
Speaker 1: certain speed, which is basically determined by where it is

452
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 1: a distance from the center, and so it's actually moving

453
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,679
Speaker 1: around the galaxy about twice as fast as the arms.

454
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 1: So we are catching up to arms and passing them by.

455
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,200
Speaker 1: But if we were further out, then the density waves

456
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 1: would be passing us by, and.

457
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 3: So that's where arms come from. Now. Matt's question was,

458
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 3: why is it weird that this one galaxy that we

459
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 3: saw has three arms? Why is it weird to have

460
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 3: an odd number of arms?

461
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,520
Speaker 1: So they make this comment on the page describing this galaxy.

462
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 1: So I chatted with a couple of experts about galaxy formation,

463
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 1: and they quibbled a little bit with this cl that

464
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 1: it is unusual. First of all, they say, it's not

465
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 1: even really easy to define like how many arms a

466
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 1: galaxy has, you know, because it's basically just visual inspection.

467
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: You're just sort of like looking at it and seeing sirels.

468
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 1: But you know, galaxies have more complex structure than just

469
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 1: like here's an arm, there's an arm. Like if you

470
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 1: look at the Milky Way our galaxy, it has sort

471
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 1: of two major arms, but lots of like little spurs

472
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: off of it. For example, we live in the Orion spur,

473
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: which is like a little offshoot from the major Sagittarius arm.

474
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,239
Speaker 1: So is that really another arm or not. It's not

475
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 1: like a well defined way to count these arms. It's

476
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: just sort of like by looking at.

477
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 3: It, I see, So it's hard to define what makes

478
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 3: an arm.

479
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 1: It's hard to define what makes an arm exactly. And

480
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 1: so you look at this particular galaxy and you're like, yeah,

481
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,679
Speaker 1: I could call that three or I could call that

482
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 1: four maybe. And so the short answer is that I

483
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 1: don't think there's broad agreement on how to define arms

484
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,360
Speaker 1: or how many arms it makes sense for galaxies to have.

485
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 3: I guess my question would be, if you look at

486
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 3: all the galaxies that we can see out there in space,

487
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 3: what is more common? Is it more common to have

488
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 3: an even ish number of arms or an odd ish

489
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 3: number of arms.

490
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question, and it's a hard question

491
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 1: to answer without like a systematic way to analyze these things. Basically,

492
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: a human has to look at it and say, I

493
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 1: think it has three, but another human might look at

494
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: the same galaxy and say, no, I think this one

495
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: has four. So to get like enough statistics to do

496
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: some analysis of that, you need some like really rigorous

497
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 1: way to analyze these things. And people have done like

498
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: furry analysis or the distribution of density waves through galaxies,

499
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 1: but that's really just a way of counting like the

500
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: strength of these things. Again, you have the problem of

501
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 1: like deciding when to call it another arm. So right now,

502
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: it's really just mostly anecdotal. People have seen a bunch

503
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: of galaxies and haven't seen ones that look like this

504
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: to them, And there are ways to explain it. Like

505
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 1: if you look at a galaxy like this and you say,

506
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: how did this galaxy get this way? Well, one possible

507
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: explanation is that it recently had a strong gravitational interaction

508
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: with another galaxy that sort of messed it up. Because

509
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 1: this one also seems sort of asymmetric, right It's got

510
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 1: like one long arm on one side and two shorter

511
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: arms on the other side, So it may just be

512
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: that like a passing galaxy sort of pulled on it

513
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,959
Speaker 1: in a way that separated those density waves.

514
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 3: But I mean, I guess, is it easy to pull

515
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 3: up pictures of galaxies that look like they have three arms?

516
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 3: Is it maybe harder or easier or the same as

517
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 3: pulling up pictures that looked like they have four arms

518
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 3: or two?

519
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: I think it's probably true that most of the galaxies

520
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: you look at, if you've just counted them, you would

521
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: probably get an even number of arms. A lot of

522
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 1: them just look like they have two, though they're sort

523
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: of like tightly wrapped around. But look at the Milky Way,

524
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: for example, it's not easy to say, like how many

525
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: are there? Like I count one, two big ones and

526
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: at least two maybe four little ones.

527
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 3: Although we don't really have a picture of the Milky Way,

528
00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 3: do we?

529
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: We certainly don't have an actual image of the Milky

530
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: Way from the outside, so we can reconstruct the density

531
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: of stars in the Milky Way using a lot of

532
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: our observations.

533
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 3: Right, well, could there be maybe some effect? Is we

534
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 3: are talking about waves right around sort of a fixed medium.

535
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 3: Is it possible that, you know, given the typical size

536
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 3: of a galaxy with the typical number of stars, maybe

537
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 3: like a standing wave of four arms is more likely

538
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 3: than a standing wave of three arms, you know, like

539
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 3: waves around the spiral of the galaxy.

540
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: I read some papers about these things, and there are

541
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 1: some arguments for why you might get two or four

542
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: if these things really do come from the density perturbations

543
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: in the center of the galaxy, because you would expect

544
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: that to be somewhat symmetric, right, that it would cause

545
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: similar effects in one direction and in the other. And

546
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: so it makes some sort of sense for this thing

547
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: that collapse into a bar that then generates two arms,

548
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: and that those might split, but that splitting would always

549
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: give you an even number. So there are some papers

550
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: suggesting that you would expect, on average to get an

551
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: even number of arms, and I think that makes some sense,

552
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: but it's not very well established.

553
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 3: Well, so then the picture that Matt saw, he sawed

554
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 3: an article that said that NASA think it is weird

555
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 3: to have an odd number of arms. What was NASA

556
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 3: saying there?

557
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: So the quote the article says, while most disc galaxies

558
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: have an even number of spiral arms, this one has three.

559
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 1: But you know, the astronomers I talked to quibbled with

560
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: that a little bit. They didn't think it was so weird.

561
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: They've seen galaxies with three arms before.

562
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 3: M I guess we'll have to ask NASA. I mean,

563
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 3: what do they.

564
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: Know, Let's have them on the podcast.

565
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 3: All right, Well, I think that answers Matt's question, which

566
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 3: is like, maybe it's maybe it's not that weird, right.

567
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 3: It seems like some astronomers don't think it's as weird

568
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 3: to have three arms. It seems like it's kind of

569
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 3: a fuzzy thing. Anyways, it is.

570
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: But what is weird is that arms exist at all.

571
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 1: It's really fascinating in the dynamics of galaxies. They have

572
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: these things slashing and swirling around, and it just reminds

573
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,719
Speaker 1: you that galaxies are dynast chemical objects. They're not fixed

574
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: things that have been formed millions of years ago and unchanged. Right.

575
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: They are swirling, they are crashing into each other, they

576
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: are constantly changing, just on these vast, vast time scales

577
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: that we can hardly even imagine.

578
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're not just dynamic, they're like wavy, right,

579
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,199
Speaker 3: They're rippling. That's what these arms are. They're ripples in

580
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 3: their structure. All right, Well, let's get into some of

581
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 3: our other questions. One is about the color of the universe,

582
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 3: and the other is about the fate of the universe.

583
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 3: So let's get into those, But first let's take a

584
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:31,720
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585
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,919
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Speaker 3: All right, we're answering listener questions here about everything as usual,

654
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 3: the whole she bang, the whole universe, and our second

655
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 3: question comes from Genie, Hi, Daniel and Hage. The question

656
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 3: I would really like to ask is did the universe

657
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,080
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658
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 3: no color, when was their first color and what was it?

659
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: Thank you. Of all the questions we've gotten, this is

660
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: the one that really threw me for a loop, Like Wow,

661
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: a question I've never even thought of before, never heard

662
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: of before what a super fun question.

663
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a very colorful question. Genie asked, did the

664
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 3: universe have a color? After the Big Bang? So I

665
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 3: guess the Big Bang happened, and I guess her Maybe

666
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 3: her question is like, if there was a human present there,

667
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 3: what would it look like? Would it look red, purple, green,

668
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 3: pulka dot? Or would it just fry your eyes?

669
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: Yeah? Really one question? What would you see if you

670
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: were there?

671
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 4: Right?

672
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: Really love this question, and I think it's really fun

673
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: because it makes us think about, like what is color? Anyway?

674
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's dig into that. What is color? How would

675
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 3: you define it? I know it's related to the wavelength

676
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 3: of the light.

677
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: It is related to the wavelength of light. But I

678
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: think it's important to distinguish, right, Like, photons have a wavelength,

679
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: which means like how long it takes for them to

680
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: go up and down. It's related to their frequency, right,

681
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: how many times they wiggle per second. But the color

682
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: is not a property of the photon, like photons themselves

683
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: don't have color. Color is something inside your head. It's

684
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: like how your brain responds to a signal of a

685
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: photon of a specific color. So it's not part of

686
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: the photon itself. It's like the taste of salt. Salt

687
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: itself doesn't have a taste. Your tongue has a response

688
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: to sensing salt.

689
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 3: Right, I guess you're sort of quivaling about the definition

690
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 3: of things. But I mean light does have of different wavelengths, right.

691
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: It does. But there are lots of wavelengths of light

692
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: that we can't see and our brain doesn't respond to.

693
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: So photons above the visible spectrum like have no color

694
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: to them.

695
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 3: Early, they have no colors. So far we could they

696
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 3: innically start naming other colors, right.

697
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, you could even imagine creating a new internal

698
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: response that's a different color than anybody has ever imagined before. Right,

699
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: If colors are really just part of your mind, if

700
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: there are a response to signals from your optic nerve,

701
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: then in principle there's no limitation on experiencing new colors,

702
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: not just combinations of existing colors, but like brand new colors.

703
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: And so in principle that's possible, and you could assign

704
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: those to very high frequency light. You can imagine like

705
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: building a technological eyeball that sends messages to your brain.

706
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: Your brain would learn to interpret those responses by giving

707
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: you some new experience that would be like a new color.

708
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think what you're talking about is that you know,

709
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 3: light has a certain frequency that can come in certain frequencies,

710
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 3: and let's say like seven gigaherds or something, or like

711
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 3: seven hurts might be a frequency. And when I see

712
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 3: that frequency of light, I think the color green, for example.

713
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 3: And you and I agree that if we see light

714
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 3: at this frequency, we're going to call it green. But

715
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 3: I think what you're saying is like, maybe what I

716
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 3: experienced is green is different than what you experience is green.

717
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: That's certainly true. And there's only also a narrow band

718
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: of photon frequencies that we even have colors assigned to.

719
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: And sort of the long history of the universe is

720
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: that it started out really really hot and dense, and

721
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,240
Speaker 1: photons created in the very very beginning of the universe

722
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: after the Big Bang had very very high energies, very

723
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: high frequencies. Then the universe is cooling down, so the

724
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: photons created get longer and longer, right lower frequencies, and

725
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: so the universe sort of starts out invisible and then

726
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: passes through the visible spectrum. And so, like Genie's asking,

727
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: what color was the universe when it started, right, And

728
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: the problem is that the energy of the photons that

729
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: very beginning of the universe don't really have a color.

730
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: They're too high frequency for us to see.

731
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 3: Right, Because the energy of a photon is related directly

732
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 3: related to its frequency, right, Like the higher the energy,

733
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,240
Speaker 3: the higher the frequency.

734
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: Exactly, and hot stuff tends to make higher energy photons.

735
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: We've talked about this on the podcast a few times.

736
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: Everything generates photons. Everything that has charged particles inside of

737
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: it generates photons, and it generates photons based on its temperature.

738
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: So the Sun generates photons at some temperature because of

739
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: its thousands of degrees Calvin, the Earth glows and generates

740
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: photons at some temperature because it's much cooler. You generate

741
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: photons at some wavelength. Your eyes can't see the photons

742
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 1: generated by yourself or by the Earth. They can see

743
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: the ones from the sun. So some of these photons

744
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: are visible and some of them are invisible. But the

745
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: hotter something is the higher energy the photons it generates.

746
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 3: Right. So you're saying, maybe at the Big Bang, everything

747
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 3: all the photons that were there were super high frequency

748
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 3: or low wavelength. What are you saying that initially at

749
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 3: the Big Bank, thinks were so crazy. All the photons

750
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 3: were super duper high energy.

751
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: They were super high energy, which means very short wavelength,

752
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: which means very high frequency. Right, And so these photons

753
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: were zipping around the universe. And if your eyeball was

754
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: there just after this moment, when the universe was like

755
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: at the Plank temperature, then not only would it be

756
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 1: cooked instantly, but the photons that hit it it wouldn't

757
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: know how to interpret. Your eye wouldn't see them, So

758
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: the universe would just be black, even though it'd be

759
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: super duper hot and filled with photons.

760
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like if your eye could somehow survive being in

761
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 3: a big bang, it wouldn't. You would see total darkness, right,

762
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 3: because all the light would be sort of like X rays,

763
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 3: they just passed through your eyeball.

764
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: One question is would they interact with your eyeball or

765
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 1: they passed through like X rays?

766
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 5: Right.

767
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: X rays do interact with some parts of your body,

768
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: but not others. And as a frequency of photons change,

769
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 1: there are chances of interacting with you changes. But you're right,

770
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: a lot of these photons might just fly right through

771
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 1: you like X rays. Which are higher energy photons than

772
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: our eyeballs can see. But then the universe temperature change.

773
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 3: But then eventually after the Big Bang, the universe started

774
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 3: cooling down, right, and so you started seeing photons with lower.

775
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: Energy, Yes, exactly. So as the universe cools and it's

776
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: really dense, plasma gets more more dilute, it cools down,

777
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: and so it starts generating photons with longer wavelengths. So

778
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: as time goes on, the temperature of the universe is

779
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: dropping and the energy those photons is dropping, and so

780
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: the wavelength is increasing.

781
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 3: So they're like the general light of the universe started

782
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 3: off way too high for our eyes, but then it

783
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 3: gradually as it cools, starts to approach the visible spectrum.

784
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a really fascinating moment around three hundred

785
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: and eighty thousand years after the Big Bang, when the

786
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: universe cooled so much that atoms could now form. So

787
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: you have protons and electrons whizzing around with so much

788
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: energy that they couldn't be bothered to bond together. But

789
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: after a certain time things cool down, those electrons that

790
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: no longer had enough energy to escape the pull of

791
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 1: those protons, which have a positive charge and pull on

792
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: the electrons, and so you get neutral hydrogen forms. And

793
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: in this moment, the universe goes from being opaque like

794
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: a really hot plasma like the center of the Sun,

795
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: to being transparent, just like clouds of gas in space.

796
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: That light could mostly pass through, So all the light

797
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: generated before this moment was just reabsorbed by the hot plasma.

798
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: Light generated after this moment can fly through the universe,

799
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,720
Speaker 1: and like, hit your eyeball, and this light is still

800
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,879
Speaker 1: flying through the universe. It's the cosmic microwave background light.

801
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: We can see it with our telescopes. When it was generated,

802
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: at that moment in time, the universe was still filled

803
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 1: with a pretty hot plasma. It was like several thousand degrees.

804
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: So that was the moment when the universe first became

805
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: transparent and the light that were created sort of becomes persistent.

806
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 3: Right, But still that light is too high energy for

807
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 3: eyeballs to capture. Right Like when I look up at

808
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 3: the night sky, I can't see the cosmic microwave background

809
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 3: with my eyes, can I.

810
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 1: You cannot see the cosmic microwave background with your eyes currently.

811
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: When it was created, it actually was in the visible

812
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: spectrum because Remember that the wavelength depends on the energy

813
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: on the temperature, and when that light was created, the

814
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 1: universe was still pretty hot. It was several thousand degrees calvin,

815
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: which is about the same temperature as the surface of

816
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: the sun, which produces visible light. So when the CMB

817
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: light was created, it was in the visible spectrum. You

818
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: could have seen it if Genie had her eyeballs back

819
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: in the early universe. Back then, she could have seen

820
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: the CMB with her eyeballs. Now, you're right, when you

821
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: look up at the night sky, you don't see it.

822
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: That's because it's no longer at that frequency. It's been

823
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: stretched by the expansion of the universe down to much

824
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: much longer wavelengths.

825
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 3: Right, And that's why you need like infrared telescopes.

826
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: Right exactly. But it's too low frequency for us to see.

827
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 5: Right.

828
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: It started out in the visible spectrum and it got

829
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: stretched out below the visible spectrum to very very long

830
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: wavelengths infrared. And so that's why we need really sensitive

831
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: telescopes in order to see it, because it's now super

832
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: duper infrared. And people say the temperature of the universe

833
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 1: is two point seventy three degrees calvin. What they're talking

834
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: about is the temperature a plasma would have to be

835
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: to generate the photons that we see in the CMB.

836
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 1: The plasma that actually generated those photons much much earlier,

837
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 1: was much hotter, but then it's light got stretched out,

838
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: so now it looks like a plasma that's much cooler

839
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: generated this light.

840
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 3: Right, So that's a cosmic microwave background radiation which comes

841
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 3: from the moment when the universe became transparent and not hazy.

842
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,879
Speaker 3: But that's I wonder if that's really what would fit

843
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 3: into her definition of the first light, Like, you know

844
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 3: that the light still existed when the universe was hazy

845
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:42,439
Speaker 3: and opaque.

846
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, exactly. So backing up again, the universe started

847
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: out really really hot, and then as it cools, it

848
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: passes into the visible spectrum that happened before this moment

849
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: when the universe became transparent, but just about the same time.

850
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,479
Speaker 1: It's like an interesting overlap here that the universe became

851
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: transparent around the same time as it became visible. The

852
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: temperature for hydrogen become neutral is about the same as

853
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: the temperature of the surface of the Sun where visible

854
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:10,280
Speaker 1: light is generated.

855
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 3: Right, So then as the universe moved into the visible spectrum.

856
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 3: What would have been the first color that you would

857
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 3: have seen if you were there and was able to survive, Like,

858
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 3: what's the highest frequency color that we can see with

859
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 3: our eyes?

860
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'd be like the most violet violet. It'd be

861
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: like super duper purply blue is the highest frequency light

862
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: that we can see.

863
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 3: So then the first color was blue. I was right.

864
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: I don't know if purple and blue are the same,

865
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, it was definitely very very bluey, very purply

866
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 1: blue ultraviolet.

867
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 3: You said, violet blue. All right, we'll go with purple.

868
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 3: The first color in the universe was purple, basically, is.

869
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 4: What you said.

870
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's true. It was purple.

871
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 3: All right, Well, Genie, thank you for that question. I

872
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 3: hope purple is your favorite color as well, because it

873
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 3: is apparently the universe first color.

874
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 1: But you know, if there are aliens out there and

875
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 1: they have eyeballs and their brains interpret things differently, if

876
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: they brains give them like a red experience for that

877
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: same frequency and a purple experience for very low frequencies,

878
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: then aliens would say a different color was the first color.

879
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: And that's just because, again, color is not part of

880
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: the universe. It's part of our brains. So it's a

881
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 1: very human thing to say that violet was the first

882
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: color in the universe. It was the first human color

883
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: in the universe.

884
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 3: I suppose, Well, it's the first name that the human

885
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 3: would give it. But the frequency was still the same,

886
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 3: so we would all agree. I mean, the experience I

887
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 3: have a violet might not do the same experience you

888
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 3: have a violet, but we can all agree that about

889
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:38,720
Speaker 3: that frequency.

890
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: That's true. Though Aliens might be able to see much

891
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: higher frequencies, and they might say an even higher frequency

892
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,760
Speaker 1: was visible before our violet.

893
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 3: I see, they might have a different first color, assuming

894
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 3: they call it color. Yeah, maybe they spell it with

895
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 3: a K or something, but they put a U after

896
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 3: the second. O Oh my god, that's just that's crazy.

897
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: I mean I think you went too far there.

898
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, who would do that? All right, Well, I think

899
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 3: that answers Genie's question. Thank you, Genie, And so we'll

900
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 3: get to our last question. This one is about the

901
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 3: universe tearing itself apart. So let's take that apart. But

902
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 3: first let's take another quick break. When you pop a

903
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 3: piece of cheese into your mouth or enjoy a rich

904
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 3: spoonful of Greek yogurt. You're probably not thinking about the

905
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 3: environmental impact of each and every bite, but the people

906
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,280
Speaker 3: in the dairy industry are. US Dairy has set themselves

907
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 3: some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse gas neutral by

908
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 3: twenty to fifty. That's why they're working hard every day

909
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 3: to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources,

910
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 3: and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water, for example,

911
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 3: most dairy farms reuse water up to four times the

912
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 3: same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn,

913
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 3: and irrigates the crops. How is US Dairy tackling greenhouse gases.

914
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 3: Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn the methane from

915
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 3: maneure into renew uble energy that can power farms, towns,

916
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 3: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

917
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 3: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

918
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 3: that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using

919
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 3: the latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense

920
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 3: dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit

921
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 3: US dairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

922
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 7: There are chiltern friends and families walking riding on paths

923
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 7: and roads every day. Remember they're real people with loved

924
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 7: ones who need them to get home safely. Protect our

925
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 7: cyclists and pedestrians because they're people too, Go safely. California

926
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 7: from the California Office of Traffic Safety and Caltrans.

927
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 8: Hey everybody, this is Jody Sweeten from How Rude tan

928
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929
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930
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931
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 8: specifically Hyundai EV's.

932
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 3: Now.

933
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 8: Let me tell you as a Hondai owner, I love

934
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935
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936
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,719
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937
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938
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,959
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939
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Speaker 8: better than knowing my family is safe in our vehicle

940
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 8: while also knowing I look stylish at the same time.

941
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,400
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942
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,840
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943
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,040
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944
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,400
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945
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948
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949
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950
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Speaker 3: You're just days away from our twenty twenty four I

951
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Speaker 3: Heard Radio Music Festival, preceded by Capitol On the.

952
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Speaker 9: Biggest headliners in live music will be taking over to

953
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954
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Speaker 4: Loss sub special surprises, and all that's you are not

955
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956
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Speaker 1: Stream only on Hulu.

957
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958
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Speaker 1: Listen on hard Radio the most anticipated live music events

959
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Speaker 1: of the.

960
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 9: Year this Friday and Saturday, starting at ten thirty pm

961
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 9: Eastern seven thirty Pacific.

962
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 3: All right, we're answering questions about the universe and our

963
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 3: last question. It's a bit uh dramatic, bit drastic.

964
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 1: It certainly is, which is why we saved it from last.

965
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 3: All right, our last question comes from Courtney, and she

966
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 3: has a question about the universe.

967
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 10: Hey, Daniel and Jorge, I have a question for y'all.

968
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 10: Is our universe tearing itself apart? Is physics as we

969
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,439
Speaker 10: know and measure it stable enough to be relied upon?

970
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 9: If so?

971
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 10: For how long? If at the beginning of the universe

972
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 10: the electroweek force broke and one moment everything was whizzing

973
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 10: around at the speed of light, then suddenly the next

974
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 10: some particles experienced mass, fundamentally altering the trajectory of our universe.

975
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 10: Could we be looking forward to another dramatic change in

976
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 10: how our physical forces manifest themselves. Could we measure that

977
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:08,919
Speaker 10: looking forward to hearing back?

978
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: Thanks?

979
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 3: All right? Awesome question for Corney. I think really what

980
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 3: she's asking is does she have to do her homework

981
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 3: for tomorrow or do that errand she needs to do

982
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 3: or is the universe just totally going to flip on

983
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 3: itself and that maybe she could be doing other things today.

984
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:25,959
Speaker 1: Yeah. I did get the sense that she was trying

985
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,399
Speaker 1: to make plans and she wanted to know how far

986
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: in the future she needed to think, Like, if I

987
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: buy this house, is it going to be for sale

988
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: in twenty years or is the whole universe going to

989
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: get shredded before that.

990
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, do I still have to pay my mortgage? Or

991
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,760
Speaker 3: can I just buy the biggest mansion I can now

992
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 3: because the universe is going to end.

993
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: That's right, real estate investment advice from people you shouldn't

994
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: be listening to about real estate.

995
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 3: Well, she's going to ask the multi part question. She

996
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 3: asked whether the universe is tearing itself apart, which I

997
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 3: guess maybe is related to her second question, which is

998
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 3: like how stable do we think the universe is?

999
00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 4: Like?

1000
00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 3: Is it going to stay like this forever? Can we

1001
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 3: invest in real estate? Or is it possible for the

1002
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 3: universe to suddenly change tomorrow or today or right now

1003
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 3: and make it a whole different universe? And maybe that happened?

1004
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 3: Would we notice?

1005
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: Even I really love this question because it touches on

1006
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: one of the most interesting ideas in physics that I

1007
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: think is not very widely appreciated, And it's actually connected

1008
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 1: to Genie's question about like the temperature of the universe.

1009
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: You know, we think about the universe and how it works,

1010
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: but we're really just describing the universe in one phase.

1011
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: When I say phase, I don't mean like, you know,

1012
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: a toddler throwing a tantrum more like a phase is

1013
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: in the state of matter. Like if you're a scientist

1014
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: and you're trying to understand water, then you might have

1015
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: one understanding of how it works when it's a vapor,

1016
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: and another understanding of how it works when it's a liquid,

1017
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 1: and another understanding of how it works when it's a solid. Right,

1018
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 1: we notice these phase transitions when water changes its behavior

1019
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 1: pretty dramatically as it heats up or as it cools down,

1020
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: and we can have a law that describes each of

1021
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: those phases. And in principle, if you had like the

1022
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 1: ultimate theory of physics, you could have a single law

1023
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: that describes all of them. But typically what we do

1024
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: is we have effective laws that describe like one phase

1025
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 1: at a time. And so the universe, the whole universe

1026
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: is cooling down, as we talked about it a minute ago,

1027
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: and so we think it's passing through different phases. And

1028
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 1: so our current understanding of physics, the standard model of quarks,

1029
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 1: the photons, the weak force, the Higgs boson, all that

1030
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: stuff just describes the current phase of the universe in

1031
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: the sense of like having an effective theory that describes

1032
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: how things work, right, now.

1033
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 3: Right, because, as we kind of talked about a minute

1034
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 3: ago with Genie's question, the universe kind of went through

1035
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 3: a pretty significant phase change early after soon after the

1036
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,479
Speaker 3: Big Bang, Like before this event, everything all the matter

1037
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 3: had so much energy, so much velocity, so much going

1038
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 3: on that like not even protons and electrons could hold

1039
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,720
Speaker 3: together or come together and stick into atoms and matter.

1040
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 3: Things were just kind of like giant plasma. And then

1041
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 3: when things cool, when space expanded, things cool suddenly, like

1042
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 3: things clicked into atoms and the stuff we see today,

1043
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 3: which is I think what you're trying to say is

1044
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 3: similar to what happens to vapor or ice. It's like

1045
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 3: the molecules are flying around, but at some point they

1046
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 3: lose so much energy that some of the other forces

1047
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 3: in play start to click them together or to bring

1048
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 3: them together as a liquid exactly.

1049
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,720
Speaker 1: And what Cordy's bringing up is another kind of phase transition,

1050
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: even deeper phase transition than just like how do protons

1051
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: and electrons click together? She was talking about the moment

1052
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: when things got mass. Right, we've described the nature of

1053
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: the universe as we understand it in terms of all

1054
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,879
Speaker 1: these quantum fields that are slashing around and we talk

1055
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: about how the Higgs field is there and it's giving

1056
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: mass to particles by interacting with them and changing how

1057
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,240
Speaker 1: they move through the universe and all of this stuff.

1058
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 1: But if you go back to one of our podcasts

1059
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 1: where we talk about the very early history of the universe,

1060
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: you know that there is a moment before this happened,

1061
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:00,359
Speaker 1: before the Higgs field was giving mass to particles, when

1062
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: we still had this description of everything in terms of

1063
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: quantum fields, but effectively the universe was very different. Everything

1064
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 1: was basically mass lists, electrons and quarks and all this

1065
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,720
Speaker 1: stuff were flying through the universe all at the speed

1066
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: of light before the Higgs boson sort of kicked in

1067
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: and gave everything mass. So that was another big phase

1068
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:19,760
Speaker 1: transition in our universe.

1069
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 3: Now that one's pretty fundamental, like the universe went from

1070
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 3: not having mass to having mass. Things having mass, and

1071
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 3: you said, something clicked, but like the laws of physics change,

1072
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 3: or within our laws just some sort of like potential change,

1073
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,760
Speaker 3: or we reached the threshold where suddenly the laws preferred

1074
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 3: to be this way rather than having no mass.

1075
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 1: So we think that the laws we have now described

1076
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 1: the universe now and also before this transition, so same

1077
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 1: laws of physics, but you have different temperature, and so

1078
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,720
Speaker 1: as the Higgs field was cooling down, it got stuck

1079
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 1: in sort of a local minimum, and that's what you

1080
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: referred to as electroweak symmetry breaking. It got stuck in

1081
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: this sort of weird spot where it treats w's and

1082
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: z's differently from how it treats photons, and it gave

1083
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 1: those particles mass, and it gives mass to the other

1084
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: particles sort of because where it got stuck as the

1085
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: universe was cooling. So it's the same basic laws of physics,

1086
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: but as the universe cools down, the effect of those

1087
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: laws changes, and one of the effects is that the

1088
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: Higgs field got stuck in this weird spot and that's

1089
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,399
Speaker 1: why these particles have mass. And so really, I think

1090
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: her question is like, do we expect further similar phase

1091
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 1: transitions in the future of the universe that could fundamentally

1092
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: change what we experience.

1093
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess she's not asking like can the laws change?

1094
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 3: She's more asking like, is the universe, like you said,

1095
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 3: is the universe stable? Are we like in a spot

1096
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 3: where the basic configuration of the universe is going to

1097
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 3: be the same, or can it change like it did

1098
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 3: once before.

1099
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: Though, you know, it is possible that the laws could change,

1100
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: because even though we can describe the history of the

1101
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: universe pretty far back using our laws and quantum fields,

1102
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 1: there's a moment beyond which we can't. Right at the

1103
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: very very beginning of the universe, just after inflation, with

1104
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 1: things 're at the plank temperature. We think our laws

1105
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: break down there, and before that we need something else,

1106
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 1: some theory of quantum gravity that's deeper. We think that

1107
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 1: even our laws of physics that do a great job

1108
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: of describing the universe today and very very far back

1109
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: in time, they are just effective laws. They're like understanding

1110
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 1: water when it's a liquid and how it flows, but

1111
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 1: not deeply understanding the true theory of water that would

1112
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 1: explain all of its phases. So there is a sense

1113
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: in which the actual effective laws of physics do change

1114
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: over time, though we don't know what's going to happen

1115
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 1: in the future. We think the universe is just going

1116
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 1: to keep cooling and probably this current effective set of

1117
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 1: laws are going to hold fast. But even if these

1118
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: laws hold fast, there might be phase transitions still in

1119
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 1: our future.

1120
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 5: Right.

1121
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: We talked in the podcast once about how the Higgs

1122
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: field is sort of stuck in this one spot, but

1123
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: it's not that stable. We don't know if it's going

1124
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: to stay stuck in that spot or if it's going

1125
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: to collapse and change the masses of everything, And that

1126
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 1: would be like another effective face transition. So it might

1127
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,720
Speaker 1: be that sometime in the future, you know, maybe spurred

1128
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: on by particle collisions, that some super collider could spark

1129
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: a change in the Higgs field which creates an effective

1130
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: phase transition in the basic laws of physics.

1131
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:14,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we talked about this in our book.

1132
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 3: Frequently asked questions about the universe. But you know, is

1133
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 3: the universe going to end at some point or how

1134
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 3: is the universe going to end? And one possibility is

1135
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,720
Speaker 3: for this Higgs field to collapse, because it can collapse

1136
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 3: right like, it's sitting at a place where it can

1137
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 3: still fall down in terms of energy.

1138
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, the reason the Higgs field does what it does

1139
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: is because it has a lot of energy still stored

1140
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 1: in it. It's like the whole universe is cooling down,

1141
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 1: but the Higgs field got stuck and it's sort of

1142
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: staying hot. But it's kind of like a ball that's

1143
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: stuck on a shelf, and it could roll off that

1144
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 1: shelf and fall further down in temperature. We don't really

1145
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: understand very well how stable the spot it's stuck in

1146
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: is and what it would take to sort of nudget

1147
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 1: out of that, and so there's a possibility that it

1148
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: could collapse even further and that would mean a change

1149
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: in the math aids of all the particles, which would

1150
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: mean like chemistry out the window, need totally new chemistry,

1151
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,240
Speaker 1: and you know, everything that relies on chemistry, like life

1152
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 1: and podcasts also out the window.

1153
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 3: And I guess buying a house also along with that.

1154
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 3: But I think you describe it as sort of like

1155
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 3: a spark and a spark propagating. I know we've covered

1156
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 3: this in the book, but it's it's almost like if

1157
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,399
Speaker 3: something happens and does cause a Higgs boson to kind

1158
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 3: of fall over or give up its energy in one spot,

1159
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 3: it would basically cause the entire universe to do the same,

1160
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,399
Speaker 3: Like it would spread out like a wave, right mm hmm.

1161
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 1: If it happened anywhere, it would spread out like a

1162
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 1: wave propagating at the speed of light. So it may

1163
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: have already happened somewhere else in the universe and that

1164
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 1: wavefront of phase transitions is heading for us or maybe not,

1165
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,239
Speaker 1: and maybe it'll be stable forever.

1166
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 3: Right, And you're saying that one thing that could trigger

1167
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 3: it maybe is building a large particle collider, maybe under

1168
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 3: Geneva or something.

1169
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, or around the surface of the Moon or around

1170
00:55:58,040 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: the edge of the galaxy.

1171
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 3: It sounds like we need to shut those things down

1172
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 3: right away.

1173
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 1: It sounds like we need to build one and find out.

1174
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 3: No, that sounds like exactly the opposite thing. You want

1175
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 3: to find out if you can destroy the universe.

1176
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm pro curiosity. I don't know how

1177
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:13,760
Speaker 1: you feel.

1178
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 3: I am pro not destroying the universe, because once you

1179
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,720
Speaker 3: find out that you can destroy the universe, you've destroyed

1180
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 3: the universe, Daniel.

1181
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 1: But you've learned something along the way.

1182
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 3: No, because you won't be here.

1183
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: Look what I'm saying, is nobody ever regretted destroying the universe.

1184
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 3: Well, I think the answer here for Corney is that

1185
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 3: go ahead and buy that house you're thinking of buying.

1186
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 3: And maybe you should write to Daniel, tell him not

1187
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 3: to destroy the universe.

1188
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 1: Send us your questions, your ideas, your requests to not

1189
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 1: destroy the Universe two questions at Danielanjorge dot com.

1190
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 3: All right, thank you everyone for sending us their question.

1191
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 3: A lot of interesting things we've learned about here. I

1192
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,240
Speaker 3: think we can give ourselves a pat on the back. Daniel,

1193
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 3: maybe with that third army having at the top of

1194
00:56:58,080 --> 00:56:58,399
Speaker 3: your head.

1195
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, it's busy. Scratch my head right now.

1196
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 3: You can give yourself three handshakes.

1197
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 1: Triple high five. It'd be the highest of fives.

1198
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 3: It be a triple five. Yeah, it'd be a fifteen.

1199
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 3: All right, Well, thanks for joining us. We hope you

1200
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 3: enjoyed that. See you next time.

1201
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

1202
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

1203
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 1: about the environmental impact. But the people in the dairy

1207
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Speaker 1: drive down greenhouse gas emissions. House US dairy tackling greenhouse

1210
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Speaker 1: gases many farms use anaerobic digesters to turn the methane

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