WEBVTT - Michael McDonald 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.639 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Set podcast. 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:17.520 My guest today is Michael McDonald, who has a new autobiography, 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:22.080 What a Fool Believes. Michael, you reveal so much truth 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:27.120 in the book, an he regrets. 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:33.159 No, I mean not yet anyway. It's funny, you know, 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:35.280 every time someone says that to me, I kind of 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:37.840 crange a little bit, thinking, well, what did I say? 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:42.040 Because I didn't think I was all that revealing. Most 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.640 people who knew me at all, you know, probably had 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.440 some idea that I was a little left of center 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:56.280 for a while there, you know, But I felt like 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:58.320 if I was going to tell my story, I needed 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:00.680 to be as honest as I could about you know, 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:05.319 addiction and things like that that I probably would have 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:09.720 not talked about I've had. I been doing just an 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:12.319 op ed about my experience as a musician, but this 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.720 being a personal memoir, it seemed like it was it 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:20.920 kind of was incumbent on me to say something about 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.920 my personal life that would be would cast a little 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:26.959 bit of a different light on all of it. 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:30.000 Well, definitely cast a different light. You're always the guy 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.480 who's very dignified. A lot of people have no idea 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:37.600 including myself. Now, you know, there's been a lot of publicity, 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:38.480 but let's go through it. 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:39.039 Anyway. 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.720 You wrote the book with Paul Rise or exactly how 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:43.720 is it inspired? 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.240 Well, I would have to give Paul most of the 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:54.520 credit for that. We've known each other about twenty years, 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:59.120 and you know, Paul is by nature, he's one of 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:02.520 those guys that, uh, he's you know, he's a writer himself. Uh, 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:07.520 he's hearing screenplays, books, uh, you name it. Uh uh 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:13.520 developed TV shows, movies and characters in movies. So his 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.120 interest in people in general is the very nat comes 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:19.640 very natural. You know, he's he's one of those guys 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.120 that's likely to kind of know what makes you tick, 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.600 just out of his own curiosity. And so as friends, 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.320 we we you know, he was always Uh. We met 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:32.320 at a party years ago and wound up back at 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:36.480 his house playing music in his studio till we ours 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:39.639 and uh we found out that we both really loved 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.480 the Beatles and uh in Botown and all the stuff 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:46.239 that we we had grown up listening to. Uh and 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.720 uh he kind of came to it. Our conversations were 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.799 kind of steered towards, oh, you know, things like got 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.600 the Beatles bridges on their songs, you know, from this 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:57.959 album to that album that had the greatest bridges and 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:02.520 all their songs. We started kind of replaying those memories 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.359 of you know, those songs and what great bridges they had, 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:09.919 stuff like that, you know, kind of musing uh uh conversation. 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:14.200 And and from that point we we we were friends. 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:16.080 And he would always come here us play when I 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.600 was when we played in town, and I actually came 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.120 up and played with us on stage. Paul's a great, 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:26.679 very accomplished piano player, and uh he said, I dare say, 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:30.840 much better pianel player than I. But we uh so 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.280 we we always we had that in common, music in 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:38.400 common from the get go, and uh, you know, but 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:41.760 his interest in a lot of what what went on 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:45.520 with Steely Dan and groups like that were as interesting 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:49.440 to him as say, our conversations were about the Beatles 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.680 and stuff. Can't we any any inside stuff we could? Uh? 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:57.160 We heard or said. We would always share, you know, 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.480 about the bands we liked. But he was always very 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.480 interested in stealing Dan, Donald and Walter and the Dubies, 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:06.720 Pat and Tommy and all. How all that happened, and 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:10.040 seemingly at the same time. At one point he said 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:11.600 to me, you know, you should write a book so 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.320 I can stop pestoring you with all these questions. And 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:16.839 I said, well, you know, I thought about it, but 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:21.640 I'm not sure how I would even do that. I've 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:23.880 written a little bit of you know, op ads for 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.599 magazine and stuff, or short stories, but I you know, 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:29.280 I don't think I could take on a book and 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:31.000 really know what I was doing. He goes, well, I've 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.240 written a few, so let me help you, you know, 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:35.840 if you're up for it. So I thought, well, how 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:39.640 lucky am I in this moment to have Paul Riser 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.720 of all people, offer to help me write this book. 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.760 And that alone made me think, well I should do it. 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.880 You know, whether I was apprehensive about it or not, 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.320 I couldn't tell you. I kind of was, you know, 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.400 because immediately you start to think about on your life 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.040 and you go, well, how would I talk about this, 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.800 or how would I talk about that? Or who would 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:03.719 I talk about? Who would I you know, uh, you know, 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.120 how would I be careful not to throw anyone under 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:11.320 the bus for any reason? However inadvertently, you know, because 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:14.160 it's you know, you always have to be careful when 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.640 you're telling your story, you know, because it involves other people, 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:24.599 and you want to be cognizant and you know, sure 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.680 not to throw anybody under the bus, like I say, 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:30.960 even if you don't mean to, you know. So there 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:32.680 was a lot of fact checking, and there was a 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.800 lot of stuff that Paul was unbelievably helpful with and 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:39.359 not to to say not the least which almost in 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.799 every aspect of writing the book, we kind of edited 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:46.440 as we went, you know, and he was uncanny with 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.479 his ability to like, you know, well, hey, you know 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:50.920 this should go This shouldn't come here, this should come 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:53.480 later in the book. And I don't even know how 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:55.200 he knew that, because there wasn't a letter in the 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:57.800 book yet. We haven't even written it, you know, but 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:01.640 he just somehow knew instinctually that don't give this away 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.640 too soon, you know, this might be more valuable later, 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.000 and uh, and things like you know, I would write 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:10.760 for a couple of days, you know, and come back 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:14.400 to him with this, you know, a couple of the 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.359 pages worth of stuff, and he would boil that down, 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:22.760 uh to like here, well here's where you're I think 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.440 your story really is a lot of this other stuff 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:29.960 nobody cares, you know, but uh, this this year is something, 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.320 you know, and uh, develop us and develop that, do 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:34.760 you know, Try to develop that and try to focus 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.120 on that, and then we'll get back together. And of 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:39.719 course I would, you know, the first couple of times, 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.640 I would like, Oh, yeah, you're just you're trashing my 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.640 whole story here. You know. I worked for hours on this, 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:49.000 you know, and uh, but every time I read it 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:52.160 the second time, what he had suggested that I get 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.320 rid of, you know, or or however he suggested to 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:59.159 edit it, uh, a lot of cut, cutting and pasting, 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:03.400 you know. The second time I read it, I would 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:06.400 be totally in agreement with what he was suggesting, you know. 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:08.880 And so I learned to not even question him after 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:10.920 a while. I would just hand him stuff and we 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:14.240 would look at it together, and pretty much he would 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:16.800 zero in on what needed to be done with it, 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:19.600 you know. So I have to give him a lot 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:22.520 of credit in the writing of this book. First of all, 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:26.000 I wouldn't have ever gotten done without his work ethic, 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:29.920 you know. I mean, I'd still be wondering about the 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.880 preface at this point, you know. But it was really 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:36.600 helpful all the way down the line even reading the 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:40.960 audio or the audiobook having him there, you know, he 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:43.480 was he was on hand with me and kind of 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.560 directed me through it and really kind of reminded me 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:49.080 in most cases. And I'm not even sure I still 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.560 did a very good job of it. But you know 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:53.920 how how I said it when I told him the 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.760 story or when we talked about it, you know, because 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.560 I was tended to start reading things like Frankenstein, you know, 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:03.520 like and then I, well, yeah, and then we went here, 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:05.760 you know, and you know he would go, you know, 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:07.640 when you said that the first time, it was kind 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.560 of like this, you know, kind of offhanded, and so 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:12.680 I was able to kind of recapture some of the 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.440 spirit of how we had first talked about all this, 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:20.680 uh what became text in the book. You know, I 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:22.760 honestly don't know how I would have gotten through this 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.400 experience without him, And the audio book almost killed me. 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.160 You know. It was like, you know, eight days of 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:32.679 six hour days of reading, uh these things that all 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:36.840 of a sudden seemed like a tongue twisting contest. You know, 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.960 it was you know, you never know how goofy some 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:46.199 of your you're paraphrasing or writing of anything, is until 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:47.440 you have to go read it. You know. 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:51.520 So, what are a couple of your favorite Beatles songs 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:52.200 with bridges? 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:59.679 Uh? Why? So many? Uh? No reply is one of 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.720 those great bridges, you know. While you know, if I 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:08.199 were you, I'd realize that I will to be a fool, 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:12.280 and you gave me no reply. You know. They just 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:16.360 had such a great sense of chord progression and relative 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.480 key knowledge, you know that I think was very natural 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.600 for them, just being guitar players. They I don't think 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.480 they really were steeped in music theory, but they you know, 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:28.840 they they had played enough club gigs, Like I always 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:31.600 tell my son, you know, playing those club gigs is 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:33.920 where you learn everything you need to know about pop music, 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:38.440 you know. Uh. And but it seemed like Beatles six 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.480 uh revolver all the way through those records, all the 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.480 way up to the Revolver and on from there. One 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.800 thing the Beatles always did well was write a great 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:47.800 bridge to their song. 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.319 You know, it seems so obvious. How come no one 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.280 else can do that? No one else sees that magic 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:58.280 in a record. 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:02.640 You know, It's a funny thing. I don't know that 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:05.600 any of us see the magic when we're when it's happening. 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:08.160 You know, I'm sure the same for the Beatles. You know, 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:08.840 I think. 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:12.720 You you're just kind of when you're making a record, 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:15.280 you're more or less just kind of have your head 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.800 down swing and trying to come up with something that that, 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:23.520 uh you think we'll capture the listeners imagination, you know, 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.800 and uh, I know with the Doobies for a long time, 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:30.360 for us, it was, you know, we wanted to kind 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:34.080 of incorporate uh. 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:35.960 Key feelings in our songs that you know, we thought 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.199 we you know, would lift the listeners you know, emotion, 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:41.640 you know, or or uh and and a lot of 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.760 that came from listening to early the early stuff, you know, uh, 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:49.200 some of the great R and B songs, uh, you 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.040 know from Motown and the Beatles stuff for sure, you know, 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.240 and uh and then you know, I think we all 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:59.120 learned a great appreciation of uh American music from the 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.120 British bands because they really fed it back to us. 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:06.120 Most of us missed so much great American music because 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:10.280 the radio stations weren't playing it on mainstream radio when 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.640 we were kids. You know, we heard these English bands 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:19.440 playing Muddy Waters and Howland Wolf and you know, Willie 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.680 Dixon songs and we were just like, what is this stuff? 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:24.920 It's so great, you know, and it was it was 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.400 part of our own culture and we weren't aware of it. 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:32.079 How'd you first hear the Beatles? 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:37.880 I remember hearing about them when I was in sixth grade. 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:40.360 One of the eighth graders came to school with his 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.319 hair combed down, and the nuns kicked him out of school, 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:46.600 sent him home, and it was a big, you know, 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.720 old gossip. It was about which Brandon showing up with 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.920 his hair combed down in his face and pink sent home. 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:57.000 And then you know, that's the first I ever heard 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:01.120 about the Beatles, And wasn't shortly after that or I 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:05.560 want to hold your hand, you know. Uh. And you 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.880 know it was kind of a bit of sophistication and 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:14.120 pop records that we didn't hear. I think some of 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:20.080 our pop records prior to that had a certain sophistication, 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:23.200 you know. Uh. I always my ear was drawn too 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.280 early on uh kind of pop R and B stuff. 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.440 For that reason. I remember hearing stop Her on Site 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:36.559 by uh Uh Edwin starred and uh, it's just something 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:39.360 about the arrangement. It was just so much hipper than 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:44.000 a lot of uh pop records were you know that 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:47.480 that followed a certain formula of simplicity. You know, Uh, 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:49.560 some of these records it's it was like they let 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.360 themselves go or something, you know, and uh, what they 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:56.040 what they did was they kind of gave credit to 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:58.640 the listener for being able to appreciate what they were doing. 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:02.360 You know. Uh, writers like Burt Backrack and the Beatles, 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:05.679 you know, they kind of went ahead and uh, you know, 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:10.720 followed their own muse and the audience was quick to respond. 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.520 You know, there's so many songs by Burt Backrack and 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:18.040 Hal David and that. You know, if you asked the 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.600 typical in our person at the time, well it's a 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:22.800 little Yeah, you can't put a six four bar in 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:24.640 the middle of the pop song. People are gonna fall 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.240 up the chair, you know. But that's not true. Because 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:30.680 if you make it sound natural and it's and you 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.440 make it, you do it just because it's a beautiful 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.079 thing to do in that moment, people will get that, 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.600 you know, and they'll they and proof is in the pudding. 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:41.680 They love those songs to this day. 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:51.599 You know, you're from the same generation. I am a 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:55.280 lot of us listen to the baseball games on our transistor. 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.480 Then we shifted to music, and then the Beatles hit 0:13:58.520 --> 0:13:59.720 What was your Experience? 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.560 I used to listen. We had those little Japanese transistoradd 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:10.040 it was forgot him for Christmas. And what an amazing, 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:14.360 you know, cultural shift that was for all of his 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:16.880 kids walking down the street with these things pressed against 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.280 our ears. And I used to go to bed on 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:23.680 Sunday night with mine, sneaking into my bedroom and put 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:27.720 it under my pillow, and when my mother left the room, 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.440 you know, and you know, it was trying to get 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.200 us to go to sleep, you know, in time for 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:37.760 school on Monday. I would I could pick up stations, 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.040 uh late at night on Sunday night that you couldn't 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.960 normally pick up during the day. The airways were all 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.840 to crowded their gains or something. But it was a 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.600 station out of Nashville, Tennessee, and it was a gospel 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:56.080 music station. And the DJ was a guy who apparently 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.840 where I got this correct, he went around the mat 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:05.200 Nashville metro area to all the churches and he would 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:13.640 record choirs on you know, fairly sophisticated portable tape player 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.480 at the time, and at the end of his day 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:21.600 that afternoon, prior to his airtime, he would edit these 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:25.160 tapes and he would pick the best performances from the 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:28.160 what he thought was the best choir performances of that 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.120 Sunday from the different churches, and that would be his 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:36.800 program that evening, and he would just with very little talk, 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:40.160 he would just segue from one performance into the next. 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:45.920 End each one was more passionate and more exciting and 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:51.960 you know, powerful than the last one. And I remember 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.720 the kid thinking even back then that you know, gospel 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:59.920 music is really so much more passionate than rock and roll. 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:01.760 I mean, rock and roll is great, and I love 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.840 rock and roll like anybody else, but it's kind of 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:06.960 ways to go to catch up with gospel music as 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:10.600 far as just pure power and uh and emotion, you know, 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:15.720 especially in the performance and live performances. You know, Uh, 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:21.280 the gospel performances have you know, historically, uh, the gospel performers, 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:27.720 I should say historically have been you know, unbelievable uh artists, 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:33.920 you know, with the prowess beyond you know, superhuman prowess. 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.520 To me, you know, uh, to this day, when I 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.080 listen to what's popular now is a lot of these 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:43.240 YouTube you know, excerpts of gospel piano players, and it's 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.680 just you want to just throw in the towel and 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.800 you know, pick up another profession after you hear these guys, 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:51.600 and some of them are like in their teens, you know, 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:56.040 and they're just already that great, you know. So it's 0:16:56.080 --> 0:17:01.520 always been, uh something a bar, a musical bar for 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:05.480 me is what goes on in gospel music, something that 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:10.679 I've never felt, you know, I've been a part of, 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.240 but I sure enjoy listening to it, and I use 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:17.199 it as an inspiration to, you know, maybe trying to 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:19.080 learn something in my old an shaw. 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.680 So in the summer of sixty nine, when the Edmund 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.919 Hawkins singers have Oh Happy Day, are you pissed? Because 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.400 it's taking room from the Beatles and other things where 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.119 you say, oh, this is great, this is just in 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:30.919 my wheelhouse. 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:36.480 No no, I love that track, and it kind of 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:39.119 brought to the airwaves what had always been there, but 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:42.080 it had been disguised as pop R and B. And 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.440 you know, all of our rhythm blues music is the 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:49.400 director of the American gospel music, you know, and by 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.320 that I mean African American gospel music, because that really 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.520 is the true well, you know, there's a Southern gospel 0:17:55.520 --> 0:18:00.320 and all that, and rock and roll has also mirror that. 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:04.119 You know from the beginning. You know, all the different 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.280 forms of pop music in this country that are truly 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:11.920 American I think come from gospel roots. You know. It's 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:18.080 the music that people found here, that they further developed here, 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.560 that they found comfort in living their day to day lives. 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.359 That's what got them through, you know, and then it 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:30.000 evolved into more secular music that they enjoyed, you know, 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.240 in their living rooms and outside of church. You know. 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:39.679 But you know, all the early R and B performers, 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:41.639 I think most of them grew up in church and 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:46.000 learned to just sing and play. Probably most of them 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:46.480 in church. 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:51.720 Okay, So the Beatles break on the radio in January 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:57.160 sixty four, thron ed Sullivan three times in February. In 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:01.960 my world, we were all playing eylon string guitars folk, 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.600 and then as soon as Beetles hit, everybody got an 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:11.000 electric guitar and everybody started forming bands. What was your experience. 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:17.159 Much the same? I think. I think every uh, you know, 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.080 if you didn't just play sports, you know, every other 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.320 American male had a garage bad you know, and dreams 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.960 of making a hit record and uh, you know, being 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:30.880 being like the Beatles. You know, that was our template 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:36.520 for uh, you know, social status, you know. Uh, and 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.520 we were no different, you know. We We started out 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:44.040 and one of drummer's basement, you know, and uh, you know, 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.000 we were probably as terrible as every garage band starts 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:51.359 out as and uh, but we you know, developed it 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.040 a little further, found some new equipment along the way, 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:59.320 and we're able to actually play a few gigs and 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:01.320 the rest of for the most part, most of us 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:04.720 made a life out of playing music. With all the 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:06.960 guys I played with when I was twelve thirteen years 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.200 old are still playing music to this day. 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.639 And that's their primary way of putting food on the table, 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:14.320 so to speak. 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:19.160 Yes and no. I mean, I think there's not any 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.200 of us that haven't worked outside of the music business 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:24.520 just to you know, like you say, put food on 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:29.240 the table. But I pretty much stayed within the bounds 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:32.600 of working because I was single, you know, for the 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.879 longest part of my life till I met my wife. 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:40.320 I didn't really have a lot of responsibility, and I 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:42.840 took that to a whole new level, you know, when 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.960 I was a musician, just you know, to keep my 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:52.320 attention and focused in one area. You know, I pity 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:55.159 the woman who would have ever been hooked up with 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:59.120 me during those periods, because I you know, I lived 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:03.560 very hand of miles for a while there in a while, 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:09.720 get a lot of CouchSurfing as a musician in La Okay. 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:13.159 In my world, everybody formed a garage band. The story 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:15.440 I tell as I was playing guitars with my good friend. 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:17.639 He says, now we're going to change keys, and I 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:22.720 said to myself, I'm out, there's no future here. When 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:24.840 did you know this was your thing and you were 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:26.080 going to write it to the end. 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:36.119 You know, there was a lot of complexity with that 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:40.880 for me. You know, I think just somewhere in there, 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:46.840 I thought, you know, if I have anything to offer, 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:50.439 it's somewhere in this realm, and anything else would be 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:52.960 starting over for me. And I didn't really have a 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:56.040 lot of confidence on myself as far as you know. 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:58.520 I remember one time in park I think I talked 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:00.399 about this in a poko in front of the bank 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:06.080 and I was eating Ah. You know, I'd taken my 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:08.920 life to a whole new economic bottom, you know, at 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:11.920 that point, you know, and uh, just watching this guy 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:14.479 in a three piece suit stand there smoking cigarette and 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.160 I kind of just assumed he was on a break. 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:20.920 He was a bank executive, and I'm thinking, God, what 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:23.320 must it. What's it like to be him? You know, 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:26.679 to have all these people's money that you're responsible for 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:30.920 and this job of great responsibility. And I wouldn't last 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:34.919 a day in that environment, you know. Uh, you know, 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:38.119 I could barely you know, uh get it together to 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:41.800 get my piano to the shop and pick some keys 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:47.360 and you know, uh this ding dong and Dr Pepper. 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:50.000 It's going to be my one meal for the day, 0:22:50.119 --> 0:22:53.560 you know. But I, uh, you know, it was just 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:56.240 a period of my life. I was young, and we're 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:58.840 all we all went there. I think, I, I uh, 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:02.359 I stretched that period out a little more than most people, 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:05.960 but I think that we all know what that's like 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:10.720 to be that age and you know, kind of irresponsible, 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:13.760 you know, in terms of what the world sees as responsibility, 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:16.560 you know. I to this day, I marveled a lot 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:18.560 of my friends who tell me about their kids and 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:22.040 what their kids are going, and you know, and I go, well, 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:24.919 I was at that age, I was just looking for 0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:28.640 another club gig. You know, I wasn't really I wasn't 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:32.800 even really that concern with what lie beyond that. You know. 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:35.600 It was just can I borrow an amp in time 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:39.280 to do this gig? You know? And then you know, 0:23:40.119 --> 0:23:43.400 I gotta be careful with this cord because I don't, 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:45.600 you know, get it just right. It's going to crackle 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:48.960 when I play. You know. I was in that world, 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:54.200 you know, but you know I wouldn't trade it. I 0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:56.399 enjoyed it. I think it was a lot of it 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:58.560 for me was I was avoiding growing up. You know, 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:03.879 I was somehow locked in a time frame in my 0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:08.720 own emotional state, you know, emotional maturity, and I just 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:13.960 didn't think I was cut out to go and learn 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:18.720 to be a teacher or a lawyer or any kind 0:24:18.760 --> 0:24:22.199 of other professional music was it? Or it was all 0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:24.560 or nothing for me with music, And I thought, you know, 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:27.200 at least I have a shot at this bringing something 0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:27.600 to it. 0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:30.000 You know, Well, you talk in the book your father 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:35.040 was a saloon singer, literally, and your parents got divorced, 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:39.480 you know, your school career ends. Was there anybody saying 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:42.040 Michael or Mike as you refer to, you know, maybe 0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:45.120 you're going down the wrong path. You need to buckle down. Well, 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:46.720 you've always kind of on your own. 0:24:48.920 --> 0:24:52.200 Well, it's funny, you know, of the two parents I had, 0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:54.840 my mother was more like, you know, hey, go for it, 0:24:55.160 --> 0:25:00.280 do you know, do do your best, you know, and 0:25:00.359 --> 0:25:05.920 be you know, you know. Uh. And my dad was too, 0:25:06.320 --> 0:25:08.679 because you know, his interest in music and everything. But 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:10.919 I think he was more wary about the fact that 0:25:10.960 --> 0:25:14.760 I might find myself out on limb in life and 0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:19.560 uh and then with no real uh you know, plan 0:25:19.680 --> 0:25:23.720 b you know, for how to you know, go into adulthood, 0:25:23.880 --> 0:25:28.480 you know, with some semblance of uh, you know, dignity. 0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:34.760 But you know, uh, so he would always do kind of, yeah, 0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:38.280 you should kind of look into these junior college courses 0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:40.919 and you know, uh, get that ged while you're at it, 0:25:40.960 --> 0:25:43.520 you know, and then go to junior college and just 0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:46.399 kind of pave away for yourself beyond this, you know. 0:25:47.880 --> 0:25:51.919 And uh, eventually I did that. I I went and 0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:56.040 took the test that you know, you know, literally anyone 0:25:56.080 --> 0:26:01.320 could pass, you know, uh, but uh, I I never 0:26:01.520 --> 0:26:05.720 you know, I never took seriously any college courses or 0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:09.000 any other profession besides just playing music, and I think 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:12.000 that was where my passion was, was just the chance 0:26:12.080 --> 0:26:15.800 to play music again. It didn't matter where or under 0:26:15.800 --> 0:26:18.800 what circumstances. I was one of those guys that when 0:26:18.800 --> 0:26:23.679 I was playing in a crappy bar somewhere with two people, 0:26:24.040 --> 0:26:26.960 you know, at the sitting at the bar and no 0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:30.200 one else in the room. You know, I could close 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:32.639 my eyes and imagine I was at Madison Square Garden, 0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:35.840 you know, playing singing the song I was about to play, 0:26:35.920 --> 0:26:39.399 you know, h It didn't matter that I wasn't. In 0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:41.359 my mind, I could go there, you know. And I 0:26:41.880 --> 0:26:44.359 think I used to do that a lot, just you know, 0:26:45.200 --> 0:26:48.919 if I was singing this song for uh, the biggest 0:26:48.960 --> 0:26:50.600 audience in the world, how would I do it? How 0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:52.480 would I sing it? You know? To me, it was 0:26:52.480 --> 0:26:55.240 always about the song and about the moment and about 0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:58.840 the chance to perform it. Uh, didn't didn't really matter where. 0:26:59.040 --> 0:27:04.000 You know, it is nearly impossible to make it. You 0:27:04.720 --> 0:27:09.960 focus on luck in the book, but you must have 0:27:10.040 --> 0:27:11.520 had a lot of drive. 0:27:17.240 --> 0:27:24.199 Yeah, I did. I think looking back, not in the 0:27:24.280 --> 0:27:26.560 areas I should have. I think, you know, I think 0:27:26.600 --> 0:27:29.840 one of the things that I was always a terrible student, 0:27:29.960 --> 0:27:33.080 you know. I you know, I've never got to practice much. 0:27:33.200 --> 0:27:38.439 I I to this day. I have a real issue 0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:40.840 with it. I'm not sure what it is. I try 0:27:40.880 --> 0:27:43.360 to practice, and I try to you know, I try 0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:46.440 to force myself, but I find that I drift off, 0:27:47.080 --> 0:27:51.680 you know, almost immediately into some other place that isn't 0:27:51.720 --> 0:27:56.560 really very much fruit, you know, in terms of what 0:27:56.680 --> 0:28:00.600 you hope to get from practicing. And you know, for me, 0:28:01.480 --> 0:28:04.280 I learned to play better when I play gigs, you know, 0:28:04.400 --> 0:28:07.040 when I when I'm playing a lot, when I'm in 0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:11.080 a dance situation and there's a reason for me to advance, 0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:15.119 uh you know, my just my keyboard part or something, 0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:18.400 or teach myself to do something I haven't done here 0:28:18.680 --> 0:28:22.119 for you know. But when I'm on my own time 0:28:22.240 --> 0:28:24.000 and I'm at home and I'm gonna I'm going to 0:28:24.040 --> 0:28:27.840 go through all these piano tutorials I've downloaded on my phone, 0:28:28.160 --> 0:28:32.040 and I'm going to slowly practice these things. I'm good 0:28:32.080 --> 0:28:36.639 for about five maybe maybe one minute, you know, and 0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:40.680 and my brain just you know, dislodges, you know, and 0:28:40.720 --> 0:28:43.960 I I find it's really difficult for me to do that, 0:28:44.280 --> 0:28:50.280 to rudimentarily do anything, you know, I I I got 0:28:50.280 --> 0:28:53.160 to be immersed in it for me to actually put 0:28:53.160 --> 0:28:58.600 it together and actually advance a little further with whatever 0:28:58.600 --> 0:29:00.760 it is I'm doing. You know, I play a little 0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:04.040 mandolin with the band. I can't play the mandolin. I couldn't, 0:29:04.200 --> 0:29:07.479 you know. I know a couple of songs. But and 0:29:07.560 --> 0:29:09.760 from the first time I ever picked up a banjo 0:29:09.800 --> 0:29:12.240 when I was a kid, I learned just enough to 0:29:12.720 --> 0:29:16.080 do what I had to do in the next song 0:29:16.160 --> 0:29:19.360 I was gonna play. But uh as far as sitting 0:29:19.400 --> 0:29:21.640 there and practicing the banjo until I got pretty good 0:29:21.640 --> 0:29:26.880 at playing the banjo, I was never capable of doing that. 0:29:27.000 --> 0:29:30.520 I don't know what that is, an intention deficit. Uh. 0:29:30.840 --> 0:29:34.080 You know, they got names for all this stuff now 0:29:34.120 --> 0:29:36.920 that they didn't have when I was a kid, But 0:29:37.000 --> 0:29:40.160 I think I suffered from a lot of them. And 0:29:39.680 --> 0:29:41.920 uh so for me, you know, it was like to 0:29:41.960 --> 0:29:44.960 throw me in the middle of it. And if it's 0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:49.080 something I enjoy overall, uh, I'll learn what I got 0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:51.080 to learn to do the job I got to do, 0:29:51.320 --> 0:29:54.240 you know. And music was that way for me. You know, 0:29:56.600 --> 0:30:01.320 I wished I had been a better stud music, you know, 0:30:01.400 --> 0:30:05.040 ad a better instrumentalist in all the different respects. You know. 0:30:05.800 --> 0:30:09.080 I'm a you know, a guy plays a little bit 0:30:09.080 --> 0:30:14.120 of some things. Nothing well, you know, and uh, but 0:30:14.640 --> 0:30:16.960 I you know, I would put it together in some 0:30:17.040 --> 0:30:22.120 form or fashion to write a song or to play 0:30:22.760 --> 0:30:25.280 this next song with a band. You know, I would 0:30:25.280 --> 0:30:27.760 come up with some kind of keyboard part that I 0:30:27.800 --> 0:30:31.120 thought worked. And you know, and I'm I'm I'm changing 0:30:31.160 --> 0:30:35.040 my parts. Uh. We've been out for three years dubies 0:30:35.160 --> 0:30:39.840 and up or our third year of the fiftieth anniversary tour. Uh, 0:30:40.080 --> 0:30:43.840 I'm still changing my keyboard parts. You know. It's just 0:30:44.040 --> 0:30:46.239 you know, I'm a slow learner and I'm slow to 0:30:46.280 --> 0:30:50.240 develop those things. But if you give me the chance, uh, 0:30:50.280 --> 0:30:53.080 and I have enough time, I can catch up, you 0:30:53.080 --> 0:30:56.320 know pretty well, you know, But uh, that's kind of 0:30:56.320 --> 0:31:00.400 my m o. You know. That's Uh. I've ever been 0:31:00.440 --> 0:31:01.920 one of those guys that can sit down and rip 0:31:01.960 --> 0:31:06.200 off something in every key you know. I wish I was, 0:31:06.320 --> 0:31:08.960 but I'm not. I don't think I ever will be. 0:31:09.080 --> 0:31:18.880 But to sage, you know, one of the big turning 0:31:19.000 --> 0:31:22.000 points in the book is you put together a band 0:31:22.160 --> 0:31:26.800 for a studio Christmas party. You meet Jeff Percaro and 0:31:26.840 --> 0:31:30.000 he calls you two years later to be in Steely Dan, 0:31:31.120 --> 0:31:34.480 tell me about the conversation in the interaction with Jeff 0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:37.560 Percaro at that Christmas party. 0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:45.479 Well, that's an interesting question, really, because, uh, your your 0:31:45.520 --> 0:31:49.480 last question is, you know, you seem to have I 0:31:49.520 --> 0:31:52.040 had a lot of perseverance in the music business, you know. 0:31:52.080 --> 0:31:54.800 I was one of these I was always no matter 0:31:54.840 --> 0:32:00.000 what didn't happen or didn't or whatever imploded or you know, uh, 0:32:00.160 --> 0:32:02.600 I always thought, well, there's an opportunity here somewhere, I 0:32:02.640 --> 0:32:05.360 just have to you know, there'll be another shot at this, 0:32:05.520 --> 0:32:09.720 you know. And though this usually was the last thing 0:32:09.760 --> 0:32:12.040 you expected, and this was one of those things where 0:32:12.080 --> 0:32:15.200 I you know, it was just a gig that I 0:32:15.240 --> 0:32:17.960 had been kind of left in my lap, and I 0:32:18.000 --> 0:32:24.280 failed miserably at delegating and preparing for this thing. And 0:32:24.320 --> 0:32:28.400 I promised this person I would, you know, I wouldn't procrastinate, 0:32:28.480 --> 0:32:30.600 and I would make sure all this stuff was in 0:32:30.640 --> 0:32:32.360 place so that we could do this gig. And of 0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:36.120 course I didn't. And it was a week out and 0:32:35.880 --> 0:32:39.480 this is nothing but disaster looming, you know. And a 0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:41.320 friend of mine said he knew some guys who might 0:32:41.360 --> 0:32:45.080 be able to help us out and play. And you know, 0:32:45.360 --> 0:32:50.080 they were kind of like the young uh you know, 0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:57.680 a list guys in town and his brother worked with him. 0:32:57.880 --> 0:33:01.280 They probably would just doing this gig for fun, you know, 0:33:02.320 --> 0:33:05.160 and I wouldn't need to rehearse, you know much, just 0:33:05.560 --> 0:33:07.960 write up some chord charts for them. They do sessions 0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:10.200 every day. They know how to improvise them, you know, 0:33:11.320 --> 0:33:13.640 just some songs that we all remotely know or I 0:33:13.680 --> 0:33:17.040 have heard before, everybody will be able to pull it off. 0:33:17.080 --> 0:33:19.480 And so that's what we did. And I met Jeff 0:33:19.520 --> 0:33:23.400 Percaro on the gig. Mike Paccaro, his brother played bass. 0:33:24.240 --> 0:33:26.360 H David Page came down just to kind of check 0:33:26.400 --> 0:33:28.320 it out, and he sat in on a couple of things, 0:33:28.400 --> 0:33:33.600 and we had a guitar player friend of mine. I 0:33:33.800 --> 0:33:39.720 can't and uh we uh, we got through the night, 0:33:39.800 --> 0:33:42.400 you know. But what what I remember mostly was them 0:33:42.480 --> 0:33:46.520 talking about doing the Steely Dan album they were recording 0:33:46.520 --> 0:33:49.480 at the time, and that was my favorite band at 0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:51.200 that moment. You know. I just love those guys. I 0:33:51.240 --> 0:33:56.480 love them what they did, and uh, you know, probably 0:33:56.480 --> 0:33:58.680 the band I like the most since the Beatles, you know, 0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:03.080 and uh and I thought, Wow, how lucky you know 0:34:03.200 --> 0:34:06.080 to be this guy's you know, playing with these guys 0:34:06.440 --> 0:34:09.040 every day. And I had done a gig prior to 0:34:09.080 --> 0:34:13.480 that club gig a disco in the South Bay area 0:34:14.440 --> 0:34:16.600 and a good friend of mine, Bobby for he was 0:34:16.640 --> 0:34:19.600 a drummer friend of mine, Bobby frederoa uh and we 0:34:19.760 --> 0:34:22.000 played together in some bands, and Bobby was a great 0:34:22.000 --> 0:34:25.600 singer and great player, played with the Righteous Brothers and 0:34:25.800 --> 0:34:28.680 each Boys for years. But he was auditioning for Stewie 0:34:28.719 --> 0:34:30.640 Dan and he was talking about going to this audition, 0:34:31.680 --> 0:34:33.440 and this is the second time I heard about somebody 0:34:33.840 --> 0:34:35.680 having something to do with Stewe Dan. I thought, God, 0:34:35.920 --> 0:34:38.520 how do you get on that train? You know, these 0:34:38.520 --> 0:34:41.960 guys are so lucky, you know. But I noticed that 0:34:42.560 --> 0:34:45.880 they also had a lot of confidence. Like Jeff was 0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:49.800 in a very charming way. Was he was just downright cocky. 0:34:50.760 --> 0:34:53.719 He just he knew he he knew he was good. 0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:56.880 You know, he didn't. It wasn't like me like wondering 0:34:56.880 --> 0:35:02.040 if you know, what's that next choro? So now you know, 0:35:02.280 --> 0:35:05.919 I was always like double checking myself and wondering, who 0:35:06.000 --> 0:35:07.680 is going to go? Yeah, this guy doesn't really play 0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:10.160 that great we should get somebody else, you know. Uh, 0:35:10.520 --> 0:35:12.920 I was always in that world in my head. And 0:35:13.160 --> 0:35:15.480 parents of these guys that never give a second thought 0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:18.080 about whether they deserve the gig or not, you know, 0:35:18.120 --> 0:35:20.880 they just you know, this is what I do, and 0:35:21.160 --> 0:35:23.319 I'm damn good at it, you know. And I really 0:35:23.400 --> 0:35:26.920 admired that if I found that just really alluring, you 0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:30.560 know about these guys, and uh, they were talking about 0:35:30.600 --> 0:35:33.560 playing with Steely Dan like it was just to walk 0:35:33.600 --> 0:35:36.840 in the park, you know. And uh, you know, I 0:35:36.920 --> 0:35:39.120 knew if I were in that room on that floor, 0:35:39.160 --> 0:35:44.520 I'd be sweating bullets, you know. So, uh, you know, 0:35:44.600 --> 0:35:46.839 that was what I remember about meeting those guys first time, 0:35:46.920 --> 0:35:50.000 was just being introduced to that you know that the 0:35:50.719 --> 0:35:53.400 Cats send, you know, the guys that were you know, 0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:56.840 they they knew they belonged in the circle of a 0:35:56.960 --> 0:35:59.360 list musicians, you know. And these guys were like in 0:35:59.400 --> 0:36:01.960 their teams at that point, they were like nineteen eighteen, 0:36:02.040 --> 0:36:06.399 nineteen years old and already playing you know a lot 0:36:06.440 --> 0:36:09.720 of major recording dates in Los Angeles of all places. 0:36:10.200 --> 0:36:13.680 Well, what was the conversation or what happened that night 0:36:14.440 --> 0:36:17.800 such that two years later, Jeff Percaro said, come audition 0:36:17.880 --> 0:36:20.560 for Steely Dan. Why did he remember you? 0:36:22.800 --> 0:36:26.719 I think he enjoyed playing with me. I mean, I 0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:28.560 think we had We had a lot of fun that night. 0:36:28.560 --> 0:36:31.080 We played a lot of great R and B stuff 0:36:31.120 --> 0:36:33.080 that we all liked, you know, that we hadn't probably 0:36:33.120 --> 0:36:35.240 had a chance to play in a while, dance music 0:36:35.280 --> 0:36:37.400 that I was used to playing because I played in 0:36:37.400 --> 0:36:42.320 the clubs more than they did. But you know, average 0:36:42.320 --> 0:36:46.359 White band, you know, Tower Power stuff, you know, some 0:36:46.440 --> 0:36:49.480 Steely Dan stuff, and a lot of the older R 0:36:49.480 --> 0:36:54.840 and B stuff resa you know, all our favorite songs. 0:36:54.880 --> 0:36:58.799 And we were for the most part improvising, just kind 0:36:58.800 --> 0:37:04.160 of playing off the court yard and in some cases 0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:07.680 making up the arrangements as we went, you know. But 0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:11.000 it was a lot of fun. And and I think 0:37:11.080 --> 0:37:19.960 Jeff enjoyed my voice as a lead singer, and you 0:37:20.000 --> 0:37:23.640 know some of the different you know, uh, you know, 0:37:23.680 --> 0:37:26.520 you always try to bring your own interpretation to a song, 0:37:26.600 --> 0:37:30.560 you know. So and I think he knew enough about 0:37:31.440 --> 0:37:33.920 what we were doing and he's we were playing, and 0:37:33.960 --> 0:37:36.880 that he thought he might have been impressed that I 0:37:37.320 --> 0:37:40.080 sang as high as I did, you know, because a 0:37:40.160 --> 0:37:41.879 lot of people don't think I do, and I don't 0:37:41.920 --> 0:37:45.760 sound like I do, but uh, I'm basically a tenor 0:37:46.600 --> 0:37:53.000 as far as vocalist goes. And so when they were 0:37:53.320 --> 0:37:55.960 finally uh and they were talking about leaving, they were 0:37:56.000 --> 0:37:59.280 finishing the record that then this is a year before 0:37:59.560 --> 0:38:02.440 he called me, uh and they were going to go 0:38:02.480 --> 0:38:04.960 out on tour. Well they that never kind of came 0:38:05.040 --> 0:38:07.759 to fruition. Uh. It was a year later and they 0:38:07.760 --> 0:38:10.040 were still trying to put a band together to go 0:38:10.080 --> 0:38:14.600 on tour. So Jeff suggested me as possibly playing some 0:38:14.800 --> 0:38:21.719 miscellaneous keyboards and uh and being able to sing uh 0:38:22.080 --> 0:38:25.120 the backgrounds, you know, and they even handle the lead 0:38:26.200 --> 0:38:29.040 uh Donald, So uh, I wanted to take a break, 0:38:29.080 --> 0:38:32.160 you know on something I'll find the song to to 0:38:32.200 --> 0:38:36.000 throw it around a little bit. So uh. For whatever reason, 0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:39.279 he he, he liked what we did that night enough 0:38:39.320 --> 0:38:42.279 to call me the year later and said, you know, 0:38:42.320 --> 0:38:45.440 I thought about you. You know, I suggested that guys 0:38:45.560 --> 0:38:47.960 maybe should come down to audition, and they said, sure, 0:38:48.040 --> 0:38:52.160 have him come down. I said, great, I'm free all week. 0:38:52.239 --> 0:38:53.960 You know, well, well it's a good time because like 0:38:54.160 --> 0:38:57.760 right now, you know, come on down, bring your piano, 0:38:58.880 --> 0:39:01.560 just you know, well run through some stuff. And see 0:39:01.560 --> 0:39:05.720 what they think, you know. Ah, so I was amazed 0:39:05.719 --> 0:39:09.120 that he even thought of it. A year later, we 0:39:10.160 --> 0:39:15.719 pretty much became friends immediately. You know. It wasn't well, 0:39:16.960 --> 0:39:20.320 you know, from from the moment we started rehearsing with 0:39:20.400 --> 0:39:23.560 Steven Dan. I think Jeff and I became kind of 0:39:23.600 --> 0:39:27.680 lifelong friends. I appreciated very much what he had done 0:39:27.719 --> 0:39:31.160 for me and his confidence in me to be able 0:39:31.160 --> 0:39:36.719 to pull it off. Ah. But also we you know, 0:39:36.760 --> 0:39:39.520 we had a kind of a kindred spirit and sense 0:39:39.560 --> 0:39:45.759 of I don't know, you know, family, uh, the start 0:39:46.800 --> 0:39:51.080 sensitive sensibilities, you know, regarding life in general, you know, 0:39:51.800 --> 0:39:55.680 uh and uh so and Jeff was just one of 0:39:55.719 --> 0:39:59.360 those guys that everybody loved. The guy. You know, he 0:39:59.400 --> 0:40:01.239 reminded me of my dad in that way. I think 0:40:01.280 --> 0:40:03.560 that was my you know what I I why I 0:40:03.560 --> 0:40:06.600 think I I gravitated into our friendship so much was 0:40:07.320 --> 0:40:09.319 he didn't remind me of my dad. He was just 0:40:09.320 --> 0:40:12.440 one of those guys that was, uh, everybody seemed to like. 0:40:12.640 --> 0:40:14.239 You know, he had a charm about him, you know 0:40:14.320 --> 0:40:18.839 that uh that you know, attracted people. And I think 0:40:19.160 --> 0:40:22.640 in a way I was he reminded me of my 0:40:23.040 --> 0:40:26.480 dad in that way just kind of had that personality 0:40:26.560 --> 0:40:29.360 that you know, uh, it was like the farthest thing 0:40:31.400 --> 0:40:33.840 from reality for me. You know, I always felt like 0:40:33.880 --> 0:40:36.440 I was, you know, somebody was going to call out 0:40:36.440 --> 0:40:38.880 my name and they were gonna put me in a 0:40:38.880 --> 0:40:42.640 paddy wagon or something, you know. Uh, but I always 0:40:42.840 --> 0:40:45.960 was attracted to people who seemed self assured, you know, 0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:49.400 and uh uh my dad was like that, and Jeff 0:40:49.480 --> 0:40:50.560 was was definitely like that. 0:40:51.840 --> 0:40:57.120 Okay, musicians are the best networkers exton. And you were 0:40:57.200 --> 0:41:00.520 really in that world you're in LA, you're playing different 0:41:00.560 --> 0:41:04.960 shows and putting bands together. Were you the type of 0:41:04.960 --> 0:41:07.719 person who was just a good hang or they only 0:41:07.719 --> 0:41:10.399 heard you once and said, you know, that's the hot guy. 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:12.880 You got to get to him. What was the magic 0:41:12.960 --> 0:41:15.640 of your networking such a you could continue to work. 0:41:17.520 --> 0:41:20.920 Well, that's probably one of the most important things in 0:41:22.160 --> 0:41:25.839 especially in session world, is you know, it's one thing 0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:27.680 to be a good player, to be able to handle, 0:41:28.120 --> 0:41:33.600 you know, and even but to be a good personal 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:36.399 person could be a good hang or you know, to 0:41:36.400 --> 0:41:39.400 to be able to hang with guys and you know, 0:41:41.200 --> 0:41:44.760 have a certain sense of humor, you know, you know, whatever, 0:41:45.280 --> 0:41:48.279 you know, it makes for a good conversation that was 0:41:48.640 --> 0:41:52.319 equally important. You know, it seemed like there was a 0:41:52.360 --> 0:41:57.319 camaraderie with all session players and producers. You know that 0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:01.759 it was about enjoyment of being around those people by 0:42:01.840 --> 0:42:04.920 as much as their their talent and their ability to play. 0:42:05.600 --> 0:42:10.359 And I think, uh, you know, there were always those 0:42:10.360 --> 0:42:13.920 guys that probably were a little socially in that that 0:42:14.360 --> 0:42:16.640 but played so great that you know, you wanted them 0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:20.280 on your session. You know, everybody kind of you know, uh, 0:42:20.400 --> 0:42:23.759 but you uh for the average guy, but it was 0:42:23.800 --> 0:42:27.200 a good player, you know, or could do the job. Uh. 0:42:27.280 --> 0:42:30.120 An important ingredient would be to be a good hang 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:34.160 and to be someone that people liked, uh, that were 0:42:34.160 --> 0:42:36.839 happy to see walk in the room, you know. Uh. 0:42:36.880 --> 0:42:39.000 And I that was never lost on me. You know. 0:42:39.600 --> 0:42:45.600 You know, I'm not sure I ever uh was all 0:42:45.640 --> 0:42:48.240 that good at it, but I I knew it was important, 0:42:48.360 --> 0:42:51.720 you know, And I knew that, uh, I I wanted 0:42:51.760 --> 0:42:57.880 to you know, I don't know what the word is, 0:42:58.200 --> 0:43:00.279 you know, endear myself to the people and the room, 0:43:00.320 --> 0:43:04.520 you know, so uh that that somehow was an important 0:43:04.600 --> 0:43:06.799 ingredient that might getch you the next gig. You know. 0:43:08.239 --> 0:43:11.640 Okay, there's a lot of focus on your family. Your 0:43:11.640 --> 0:43:14.200 father leaves the house, he comes back now and again, 0:43:14.760 --> 0:43:17.680 but you got your mother, you got your two sisters. 0:43:18.120 --> 0:43:20.399 You talk about from the time you start working as 0:43:20.400 --> 0:43:24.359 a teenager, you're kicking in for the household bills. Then 0:43:24.440 --> 0:43:28.520 they follow you out to California. You know, there are 0:43:28.520 --> 0:43:31.719 some situations that are uncomfortable, but when one reads it, 0:43:31.800 --> 0:43:34.200 you go, this must have been a big drag on 0:43:34.239 --> 0:43:38.719 you emotionally and made it even harder to be successful. 0:43:43.920 --> 0:43:45.760 Yeah, and I don't know, I mean. 0:43:45.760 --> 0:43:51.040 Uh, I do remember having a taste of freedom from 0:43:51.239 --> 0:43:55.960 the familial you know, effort to you know, stay afloat 0:43:56.000 --> 0:43:56.919 that we grew up with. 0:43:58.000 --> 0:44:02.359 But and you know, just to be actually on my 0:44:02.400 --> 0:44:05.800 own living in California at nineteen, you know, I was like, wow, 0:44:06.520 --> 0:44:12.319 this is an eye opener. In some ways. I think 0:44:13.320 --> 0:44:17.160 it opened the door to me, you know, possibly getting 0:44:17.200 --> 0:44:20.239 into more trouble than I bargained for because I just 0:44:20.280 --> 0:44:23.759 really wasn't used to well. I was in bands and 0:44:23.840 --> 0:44:26.000 we were on the road back in the Midwest a 0:44:26.000 --> 0:44:29.520 lot too, so were was no shortage of you know, 0:44:31.040 --> 0:44:35.360 shenanigans back then. But coming to California, it was just 0:44:35.400 --> 0:44:37.760 such an eye opener. It was just such a different world, 0:44:37.960 --> 0:44:41.600 you know. It was nothing like where I came from, 0:44:41.640 --> 0:44:47.439 you know, And so when it was time to bring 0:44:47.480 --> 0:44:49.719 my family back out, there was a certain kind of like, oh, 0:44:50.040 --> 0:44:52.880 you know, I'm really kind of enjoying this, you know, 0:44:53.000 --> 0:44:58.200 being grown up on my own, you know, living my 0:44:58.280 --> 0:45:03.200 own life in California. But uh, you know we did 0:45:03.239 --> 0:45:09.040 all well, not to sound you know, modeling, but you know, 0:45:09.719 --> 0:45:12.719 my mom for sure had sacrificed so much just to 0:45:12.840 --> 0:45:16.400 raise us, you know, my sisters and I and uh, 0:45:18.280 --> 0:45:21.359 you know, this was kind of I knew what part 0:45:21.400 --> 0:45:24.920 of this was surgery, you know that somehow I would 0:45:25.280 --> 0:45:27.160 you know, be able to make a living in California 0:45:27.160 --> 0:45:29.160 and they'd all be able to move out and you know, 0:45:30.400 --> 0:45:36.359 we've uh whatever behind us. You know. For my mom, 0:45:36.400 --> 0:45:38.920 it was a leaving a failed marriage and leaving you 0:45:38.960 --> 0:45:42.200 know a lot of hard work, you know, and maybe 0:45:42.239 --> 0:45:46.319 being able to cash in a little bit on the 0:45:46.400 --> 0:45:49.719 rewards of you know, sticking sticking out with all of 0:45:49.760 --> 0:45:53.000 us and you know, and doing her best for us, 0:45:53.000 --> 0:45:55.160 you know, And I felt I owed her that, you know, 0:45:55.280 --> 0:45:57.520 so uh, you know, I knew that was her dream 0:45:57.600 --> 0:46:01.680 was to move to California, and my sisters and I, 0:46:01.760 --> 0:46:04.280 you know, we're always very close, so you know, uh, 0:46:04.640 --> 0:46:07.040 I knew once they got out here, they would take 0:46:07.080 --> 0:46:10.160 over a lot of the I always left the family 0:46:10.200 --> 0:46:14.560 stuff to them, you know, you know whatever. Uh, And 0:46:14.600 --> 0:46:17.359 I was always kind of given this carte blanche of like, well, 0:46:17.400 --> 0:46:20.280 he just goes and does what he does, and uh, 0:46:20.320 --> 0:46:23.480 you know, and he's you know, uh, as long as 0:46:23.480 --> 0:46:27.520 he helps out financially, we're good. You know. Uh, they 0:46:27.520 --> 0:46:30.160 don't really need me around. They just you know, needed 0:46:30.160 --> 0:46:33.200 my help. And we all we needed you know, when 0:46:33.200 --> 0:46:36.480 we're growing up, we all needed that to band together. 0:46:36.640 --> 0:46:40.760 You know. My mom and her sisters, my grandmother. Uh, 0:46:41.160 --> 0:46:45.080 we lived in a kind of communal situation, you know, uh, 0:46:45.400 --> 0:46:49.399 not in the same house, but we all they all 0:46:49.520 --> 0:46:52.400 raised each other's kids, and my grandmother raised us for 0:46:52.440 --> 0:46:56.279 the most part while they all worked. And uh so 0:46:56.320 --> 0:47:01.440 it was a very uh a meshed kind of a 0:47:01.520 --> 0:47:04.680 family for better or worse, very a meshed kind of 0:47:04.719 --> 0:47:05.640 family experience. 0:47:06.920 --> 0:47:11.279 Okay, but it ultimately doesn't work out and everybody goes 0:47:11.320 --> 0:47:14.239 back to Saint Louis and then it works better and 0:47:14.239 --> 0:47:19.000 everybody comes back. What was your emotion after you make 0:47:19.040 --> 0:47:23.879 a record, nothing happens, family comes out, you go back 0:47:23.920 --> 0:47:26.280 to Saint Louis. Well, how did you feel. 0:47:28.680 --> 0:47:33.440 Oh? I think that played into my a part of 0:47:33.480 --> 0:47:40.799 myself that I didn't even really know consciously yet, which was, uh, 0:47:41.960 --> 0:47:43.879 this is not over for me. I'm going to get 0:47:43.880 --> 0:47:45.960 back out to California. You know. I think I had 0:47:45.960 --> 0:47:48.080 that in the back of my mind, you know, from 0:47:48.120 --> 0:47:51.799 the minute I got everybody back home, you know, and 0:47:51.920 --> 0:47:58.080 uh we all left after the earthquake, uh, you know, 0:47:58.560 --> 0:48:01.640 and my album got de scrapped. You know. I just 0:48:03.680 --> 0:48:07.759 I think even then that it could be one of 0:48:07.760 --> 0:48:13.040 the lower points of my uh inspiration in terms of 0:48:13.080 --> 0:48:16.680 the music business. I wasn't ready to give up, you know, 0:48:17.680 --> 0:48:21.160 even with my dad doing you know, while you're home, 0:48:21.239 --> 0:48:24.520 you should take that g D. You know, uh, maybe 0:48:24.560 --> 0:48:26.800 look at this community college up here in Florence. And 0:48:26.920 --> 0:48:32.399 you know, even in those conversations, I was going, Nah, 0:48:34.880 --> 0:48:37.799 I gotta I've had a taste of California. I know, 0:48:37.880 --> 0:48:40.880 I think I know what's going on out there to 0:48:41.000 --> 0:48:43.759 the degree that I maybe thought I did. And and 0:48:44.080 --> 0:48:46.480 but I knew I had to get back, you know, 0:48:47.080 --> 0:48:50.759 that somehow I would figure that out. I wasn't sure 0:48:51.120 --> 0:48:52.560 how h. 0:48:59.239 --> 0:49:02.600 Okay. You know, you start out, you're a teenager by 0:49:02.719 --> 0:49:06.800 time you contemplate going to California. What is the dream? 0:49:08.000 --> 0:49:09.920 What is it you want? What do you see on 0:49:10.000 --> 0:49:10.719 the horizon? 0:49:12.480 --> 0:49:14.640 I think I wanted to make records, you know. That 0:49:14.760 --> 0:49:18.120 was that That's how I saw the music business, you know, 0:49:18.200 --> 0:49:20.680 in the simplest form, was I want to make a 0:49:20.760 --> 0:49:24.399 record that someone can actually put out and maybe get 0:49:24.400 --> 0:49:28.200 on the radio and then let people decide whether I'm 0:49:28.200 --> 0:49:31.200 any good or not, you know, but just to be 0:49:31.239 --> 0:49:35.200 able to get into that those circles where people actually 0:49:35.200 --> 0:49:41.200 made records that were actually viable, possible radio play, you know, 0:49:41.400 --> 0:49:45.160 for the radio stations around the country. You know, I 0:49:45.400 --> 0:49:49.600 wanted to be that guy that, like myself, when I'm 0:49:49.680 --> 0:49:51.920 driving down the freeway and I hear that song come on, 0:49:52.760 --> 0:49:56.240 and that joyous moment of reaching over and just cranking 0:49:56.280 --> 0:49:58.759 that sucker, you know, as loud as I can and 0:49:58.880 --> 0:50:01.799 listen to that song all way down the highway. I 0:50:01.840 --> 0:50:04.160 wanted to be that for somebody else. I wanted I 0:50:04.200 --> 0:50:09.279 want someone else to have that experience concerning my music. 0:50:09.000 --> 0:50:11.839 Did you see yourself as a solo act or a 0:50:11.880 --> 0:50:15.440 band or the front man. Was there something in your 0:50:15.480 --> 0:50:16.680 mind's eye. 0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:19.520 I was always pretty malleable with that. I was always 0:50:19.520 --> 0:50:22.319 more comfortable being in a band, in a band, you know, 0:50:22.800 --> 0:50:25.720 being a band guy, you know, but I was willing 0:50:25.800 --> 0:50:29.960 to try solo artists. Thing that was my first deal 0:50:30.000 --> 0:50:34.840 with Warner Brother with R Cier, was to make a 0:50:34.840 --> 0:50:42.719 record as a solo artist, singer, composer. But I'm not 0:50:42.760 --> 0:50:45.239 sure I was ever really prepared to do that, you know. 0:50:45.719 --> 0:50:48.879 I think I just took everything kind of one step 0:50:48.920 --> 0:50:51.279 at a time, you know, figured i'd figure out the 0:50:51.320 --> 0:50:53.239 rest of it, what it was like to be a performer. 0:50:53.600 --> 0:50:55.480 You know. I wanted to sing like Tom Jones, and 0:50:55.520 --> 0:51:00.120 I wanted to write songs like Burt Backerack and uh 0:51:01.239 --> 0:51:03.680 somewhere into that realm, you know, I thought I would 0:51:03.719 --> 0:51:07.000 be happy. I loved R and B. But I didn't 0:51:07.360 --> 0:51:12.520 consider myself a real R and B singer, you know, 0:51:12.680 --> 0:51:19.799 per se you know, ah and are really having a 0:51:19.880 --> 0:51:24.239 chance in that market much, you know. I I love 0:51:24.320 --> 0:51:26.680 singing and stuff, and I loved that was my favorite 0:51:26.760 --> 0:51:32.000 music at the time. But I feel I kind of 0:51:32.080 --> 0:51:34.200 I guess I saw myself more as a pop artist, 0:51:34.400 --> 0:51:37.080 you know, in my mind's eye, or that I had 0:51:37.239 --> 0:51:40.120 more of a chance of being successful making records in 0:51:40.160 --> 0:51:46.960 that realm you cut to chase, you know, the record 0:51:46.960 --> 0:51:52.200 got scrapped and probably for everyone's benefit, and I went 0:51:52.280 --> 0:51:54.759 back home for a minute, got back out to California, 0:51:54.800 --> 0:51:57.920 but always it was the drive to kind of somehow 0:51:57.920 --> 0:52:02.000 get into the recording pusician, you know. And then it 0:52:02.080 --> 0:52:06.880 wasn't long before working for Richard producer. I worked for 0:52:07.000 --> 0:52:12.560 quite a bit, played on a lot of sessions that 0:52:12.680 --> 0:52:16.840 I my my dream then kind of I was nothing 0:52:16.840 --> 0:52:19.320 if not valuable. You know. I thought, well, if I 0:52:19.360 --> 0:52:21.760 could just you know, get a little better on piano 0:52:21.800 --> 0:52:24.880 and play more sessions, I would be happy. And just 0:52:24.960 --> 0:52:27.200 being a guy that played sessions enough to pay the 0:52:27.239 --> 0:52:29.880 bills and you know, work, I could work in clubs, 0:52:30.080 --> 0:52:33.640 you know, in my off time. But if if I 0:52:33.640 --> 0:52:36.080 could work enough to do more sessions and make a 0:52:36.120 --> 0:52:40.560 living good living at it, uh that I would be happy, 0:52:40.719 --> 0:52:45.000 you know. And uh So for a while that was 0:52:45.040 --> 0:52:46.960 all I was really shooting at it. But then you know, 0:52:47.360 --> 0:52:49.920 it would come up that friends of mine were going 0:52:50.000 --> 0:52:51.520 to go on the road with somebody. I thought, oh, 0:52:51.560 --> 0:52:53.879 that sounds like fun, and that sounds like a great gig, 0:52:53.960 --> 0:52:58.440 you know, and uh, you know, none of us got 0:52:58.440 --> 0:53:00.279 paid that much for it. He had to be really 0:53:00.360 --> 0:53:03.480 the ace guy, doing so many sessions that they had 0:53:03.520 --> 0:53:06.000 to pay you thousands of dollars to leak down, you know, 0:53:08.160 --> 0:53:10.520 to turn your back on that, you know. But I 0:53:10.640 --> 0:53:12.600 wasn't that guy, and so I was more in the 0:53:12.680 --> 0:53:15.200 rome of guys who would go on the road next 0:53:15.239 --> 0:53:19.240 to nothing and you know, play as mindy cakes as possible. 0:53:19.560 --> 0:53:21.480 But you know, if you were lucky enough to be 0:53:21.560 --> 0:53:25.080 with the band, you loved it. It was nothing better 0:53:25.120 --> 0:53:27.600 than that. You know. It's kind of like being in 0:53:27.640 --> 0:53:29.600 love and being broke, you know. It was like, you know, hey, 0:53:29.600 --> 0:53:33.920 this is the best. You know. So I was always 0:53:33.960 --> 0:53:36.239 looking for one of those gigs to come up. And 0:53:39.440 --> 0:53:42.640 when it actually happened that my steely Dan's dream kind 0:53:42.640 --> 0:53:44.719 of came true, I couldn't believe it, you know, that 0:53:44.760 --> 0:53:47.879 I would actually get to play with this band who 0:53:47.960 --> 0:53:50.080 eded at the moment, was my favorite band in the world, 0:53:50.160 --> 0:53:55.000 you know. And it's like a lot of those kind 0:53:55.040 --> 0:53:58.200 of gigs you get them, it's a dream come true 0:53:58.440 --> 0:54:02.319 and I can't think of it being any better. And 0:54:02.320 --> 0:54:05.600 then they break up, and you know, you're back to 0:54:05.640 --> 0:54:09.440 the Trojan Room in Glendale, playing a couple of their 0:54:09.480 --> 0:54:13.600 songs in your set at night. You know. So you know, 0:54:14.040 --> 0:54:15.640 it was the ups and downs of all that. But 0:54:15.960 --> 0:54:17.399 you know, as long as I could make a living 0:54:17.440 --> 0:54:19.600 as a musician, I was. I was for the most part, 0:54:19.640 --> 0:54:20.520 I was happy. You know. 0:54:21.760 --> 0:54:26.080 Okay, eventually you have this large success, you know, you 0:54:26.200 --> 0:54:29.640 buy a house, your mother has her friends staying in 0:54:29.640 --> 0:54:35.520 your house. But to what degree when you have the 0:54:35.640 --> 0:54:38.799 success and you have everybody can use more money, but 0:54:38.840 --> 0:54:41.120 you have more money than you need to pay the bills, 0:54:41.480 --> 0:54:45.239 to what degree did you have a responsibility to take 0:54:45.280 --> 0:54:48.120 care of the other three family members? And to what 0:54:48.239 --> 0:54:49.760 degree did they ask? 0:54:54.600 --> 0:55:00.520 You know, I I don't know that My family was 0:55:00.560 --> 0:55:03.560 ever really very demanding and everybody had their own you know, 0:55:03.680 --> 0:55:07.640 my sisters were both singers and bands, and uh you know, 0:55:07.719 --> 0:55:11.480 we all worked. You know. I I helped out my 0:55:11.520 --> 0:55:14.360 family as much as I could. You know, I always 0:55:15.239 --> 0:55:18.759 happy to do that. You know, Uh, my mom, it 0:55:18.960 --> 0:55:21.799 was my It was kind of like the delegation was 0:55:22.440 --> 0:55:27.120 mom is my responsibility and financially and uh uh the 0:55:27.200 --> 0:55:29.640 girls you know had their own lives. You know, they 0:55:29.719 --> 0:55:34.000 had husbands at a certain point, and so I wasn't 0:55:34.040 --> 0:55:37.800 really interfering in their lives that much. I would be happy, 0:55:38.080 --> 0:55:40.160 you know, to help them out financially if I could 0:55:40.200 --> 0:55:42.640 on something, But for the most part, everybody was pretty 0:55:42.640 --> 0:55:46.319 so sufficient. You know. Uh my mom, I think we 0:55:46.400 --> 0:55:49.440 all felt deserved to break, you know. And uh, so 0:55:49.880 --> 0:55:53.359 you know, I got her a house, and but she 0:55:53.719 --> 0:55:56.640 wasn't happy unless she was working. So she continued to work. 0:55:56.680 --> 0:55:59.480 And so she went to school, became a travel agent. 0:55:59.600 --> 0:56:05.160 And my mom and her uh you know, inevitable style, 0:56:05.239 --> 0:56:08.320 wound up being a travel agent to like more celebrities 0:56:08.360 --> 0:56:10.759 than I'd ever met in my life, you know. And 0:56:10.840 --> 0:56:14.440 uh she was like the celebrities of the travel agents, 0:56:14.440 --> 0:56:18.720 of the stars, uh, actors, you know, the beach boys 0:56:18.760 --> 0:56:22.240 all they they did their travel through my mom. Uh 0:56:22.640 --> 0:56:25.800 you know, all kinds of folks that I met actually 0:56:26.400 --> 0:56:30.560 through my mom as their travel agent, you know. But 0:56:31.320 --> 0:56:34.120 so she was happy working. But now she didn't need 0:56:34.160 --> 0:56:36.839 to struggle so much to just you know, raise three 0:56:36.920 --> 0:56:40.799 kids and uh, you know, less than one hundred bucks 0:56:40.800 --> 0:56:43.680 a week, you know. Uh, those days were over and 0:56:44.040 --> 0:56:46.920 so we we we all and we all participated. My 0:56:46.920 --> 0:56:51.040 sisters were always really more on uh, on site kind 0:56:51.040 --> 0:56:54.000 of help with my mom whenever, you know, she needed, 0:56:54.120 --> 0:56:57.560 especially as she got older, you know, uh, organizing her 0:56:58.000 --> 0:57:01.040 health care and stuff like that. To Cathy was always 0:57:01.080 --> 0:57:04.560 really great about that, you know, and her sister Marge, 0:57:04.680 --> 0:57:07.640 my aunt Betsy was always really a bit at that. 0:57:07.880 --> 0:57:10.280 Nobody gave me much credit for being able to handle 0:57:10.280 --> 0:57:13.600 those things very well. So we all kind of took 0:57:13.640 --> 0:57:16.360 on our best suited jobs. 0:57:17.680 --> 0:57:20.320 Okay, you're on the road with Steely Dan. You talk 0:57:20.360 --> 0:57:24.960 about being in London and the two key members were 0:57:24.960 --> 0:57:29.120 in their own hotel room. To what degree was the 0:57:29.160 --> 0:57:33.440 band all in it together or were Walter and Donald 0:57:33.840 --> 0:57:35.960 separate and the rest of the band. 0:57:35.760 --> 0:57:40.280 Hung well, I think it would be safe to say 0:57:40.320 --> 0:57:45.600 that everybody saw Walter and Donald as the source of 0:57:46.160 --> 0:57:50.480 creativity for what was eventually would be Seely Dan in 0:57:50.520 --> 0:57:54.240 any sense. You know, those guys wrote the songs, They 0:57:54.280 --> 0:57:58.880 were the brains behind the operation, you know kind of thing, 0:57:58.960 --> 0:58:03.040 and we all felt really fortunate to be part of 0:58:03.120 --> 0:58:07.240 their music, you know, we all fans first. Now, there 0:58:07.240 --> 0:58:09.560 were the guys that were originally in the band who 0:58:09.560 --> 0:58:12.360 came out to New York for them, who played them, uh, 0:58:12.560 --> 0:58:16.320 you know, from the beginning, you know, on the Winnebago 0:58:16.440 --> 0:58:18.640 tours as we say, you know, and had been in 0:58:18.680 --> 0:58:22.640 from the beginning. But even those guys I think looked 0:58:22.840 --> 0:58:28.000 to Donald and Walter as they all brought their particular expertise. 0:58:28.160 --> 0:58:35.040 Danny Diaz, Jeff Baxter, Jimmy Hotter, they they all had 0:58:35.080 --> 0:58:37.640 what they did well, and that's what they brought to 0:58:37.680 --> 0:58:40.320 the band. But I think everybody looked to Donald and 0:58:40.320 --> 0:58:43.680 Walter for that creative source that that made the band 0:58:43.680 --> 0:58:48.240 what it was musically ultimately. 0:58:49.400 --> 0:58:51.880 Yeah, but how much in terms of hang could you 0:58:52.000 --> 0:58:55.520 hang with Walter and Donald or was it clear they're 0:58:55.520 --> 0:58:56.400 in their own bubble? 0:58:58.160 --> 0:59:04.080 Probably a little of both, you know, but uh, they 0:59:04.080 --> 0:59:07.080 were both very funny guy. It's great hang you know 0:59:07.120 --> 0:59:10.640 when we all we all pretty much hung together at 0:59:10.640 --> 0:59:15.520 the cage on days. But at the same time, there 0:59:15.600 --> 0:59:21.600 was a probably you can on the off days, uh, 0:59:22.600 --> 0:59:24.840 I would probably be running around town with one of 0:59:24.840 --> 0:59:27.440 the guys in the band or the crew, you know, 0:59:28.280 --> 0:59:30.440 we all you know, and so this was kind of 0:59:30.440 --> 0:59:33.840 a special treat to be called up to Donald and 0:59:33.880 --> 0:59:39.720 Walters enclave at this hotel in London to spend the 0:59:39.760 --> 0:59:41.560 day just hanging out. But we did that a lot. 0:59:41.640 --> 0:59:44.360 We did that too, you know. And like I say, 0:59:44.440 --> 0:59:47.080 those guys were very funny. It was always fun to 0:59:47.120 --> 0:59:49.960 be around them, you know, and their their view of 0:59:50.000 --> 0:59:52.960 the world around them was always worth the price of 0:59:53.000 --> 0:59:56.479 the mission, you know. Uh. They had a real sense 0:59:56.480 --> 1:00:01.120 of irony when it came to encountering people, you know, uh, 1:00:01.240 --> 1:00:03.959 and just different things the way they looked at life, 1:00:04.040 --> 1:00:08.040 you know, especially in the music business, and so uh 1:00:09.200 --> 1:00:11.080 that was all part of that scene. You know. They 1:00:11.120 --> 1:00:16.720 were kind of hiding out from the promoters and h 1:00:17.880 --> 1:00:22.640 in our executives and uh management uh and held up 1:00:22.680 --> 1:00:27.560 in their ivory tower of Blake's Hotel, and everybody was 1:00:27.600 --> 1:00:29.400 down in the lobby pulling their hair out trying to 1:00:29.400 --> 1:00:31.400 get a phone call up to those guys. And they 1:00:31.480 --> 1:00:34.200 had just you know, decided we're going to do this 1:00:34.320 --> 1:00:39.160 our way, the highway, you know, and uh so and 1:00:39.520 --> 1:00:41.080 we will let you know when we're ready to talk 1:00:41.120 --> 1:00:41.280 to you. 1:00:42.480 --> 1:00:42.640 Uh. 1:00:42.800 --> 1:00:44.600 And somehow in the middle of that, we were invited 1:00:44.640 --> 1:00:46.240 up to the room to just kind of hang out 1:00:46.240 --> 1:00:50.920 for the afternoon and you know, ah and you know, 1:00:51.600 --> 1:00:53.880 hang well. 1:00:53.960 --> 1:00:58.600 Denny Diaz, to my knowledge, ultimately became a computer programmer, 1:00:59.240 --> 1:01:02.920 not everybody he can eke out a living in music. 1:01:03.640 --> 1:01:06.480 Those people, how do they ultimately make a decision to 1:01:06.520 --> 1:01:08.200 make a left turn? What have you learned? 1:01:10.080 --> 1:01:13.880 Uh? You know, I think that's just such a personal decision, 1:01:14.040 --> 1:01:17.479 you know. And I think if you have the what's 1:01:17.480 --> 1:01:20.800 tempting is if you actually have an acumen for something 1:01:21.040 --> 1:01:24.200 like that, Like I think Denny's interest was always there, 1:01:24.440 --> 1:01:29.000 you know, for it stuff and you know, computers, uh 1:01:29.040 --> 1:01:32.720 and he was always fascinated with technical things, technical you know, 1:01:32.920 --> 1:01:41.160 uh uh here, recording, you know, uh stuff, So it 1:01:41.200 --> 1:01:43.800 would be an easy transition for him, you know. And 1:01:43.840 --> 1:01:47.280 I think once again, you know, the great equalizers when 1:01:47.520 --> 1:01:49.760 when he gets married, you know, you look at your 1:01:49.760 --> 1:01:54.720 life differently. You know, you're not willing or you know, 1:01:55.680 --> 1:02:00.680 collectively as a unit, you're not willing to charge the 1:02:00.720 --> 1:02:04.440 road of economic despair, you know, any more than you 1:02:04.520 --> 1:02:11.200 have to, you know. And so you know, for some 1:02:11.240 --> 1:02:13.680 of the guys, I think it was an easy transition 1:02:13.840 --> 1:02:15.600 for some of them. Not, you know, not so much, 1:02:15.680 --> 1:02:24.400 you know. But now it's a hard question to answer. 1:02:24.800 --> 1:02:27.200 For me. All I know from my own experience was 1:02:27.480 --> 1:02:30.640 I would have been afraid to enter most of any 1:02:30.680 --> 1:02:34.200 of those worlds you know, I didn't even understand them 1:02:34.200 --> 1:02:36.680 as they pertained to music, much less what I understand 1:02:36.680 --> 1:02:38.280 them outside of music. You know. 1:02:45.520 --> 1:02:52.360 Okay, you're playing in bands in the area of Missouri, Indiana, Illinois, 1:02:52.520 --> 1:02:57.720 and you ultimately interact with Irving Azoff World as an 1:02:57.720 --> 1:03:01.440 agent in Illinois, and he ultimately becomes your manager in 1:03:01.480 --> 1:03:05.480 your solo career. What was Irving like when he was 1:03:05.480 --> 1:03:06.840 in Illinois? 1:03:07.480 --> 1:03:11.760 Exactly like Irving is now. I don't think he's changed 1:03:11.800 --> 1:03:17.920 one bit, but in all the good ways. I mean, 1:03:17.920 --> 1:03:22.280 I have a great respect for his friend first, you know, 1:03:23.800 --> 1:03:26.400 but as a manager for sure, you know, as a 1:03:26.520 --> 1:03:31.160 as a I think, as a person with great perspective 1:03:31.320 --> 1:03:34.200 about the music business. And I think it's made him 1:03:34.240 --> 1:03:37.640 as many enemies as friends, you know. But I think 1:03:37.640 --> 1:03:40.320 it's very telling that most of his friends are artists 1:03:40.560 --> 1:03:43.840 that he has helped, you know. You know, Irving was 1:03:43.840 --> 1:03:48.120 one of those guys where you know, the suits. I'll 1:03:48.160 --> 1:03:50.200 love to tell you what a scoundrel Irving can be, 1:03:50.320 --> 1:03:56.080 you know, ruthless, you know, blah blah blah. Pretty much 1:03:56.120 --> 1:03:59.200 every musician that's ever worked with him is you know, 1:04:00.520 --> 1:04:02.440 can we will tell you that the guys the best 1:04:02.920 --> 1:04:06.080 there is you know, as far as looking out for 1:04:06.320 --> 1:04:11.680 artist interests, for being wise in his advice to artists, uh, 1:04:11.760 --> 1:04:15.480 and guiding their careers. Uh. I think you'd be hard 1:04:15.520 --> 1:04:20.680 pressed to find anyone. It's even you know, in his league, 1:04:20.840 --> 1:04:24.800 you know, to be quite honest. Uh. You know, all 1:04:24.840 --> 1:04:27.440 the guys from that from that office that was our 1:04:27.640 --> 1:04:31.400 booking agency and Champagne Illinois, of all places, uh, I 1:04:31.520 --> 1:04:34.920 have done really really well. They were They were kind 1:04:34.960 --> 1:04:42.040 of the new age of perspective on management of musical artists. 1:04:42.120 --> 1:04:47.480 You know, John Barrick, all the guys in those offices 1:04:47.520 --> 1:04:54.720 were really uh kind of groundbreaking, uh, artist centric kind 1:04:54.720 --> 1:04:57.200 of view of the business. You know. 1:04:58.600 --> 1:05:03.280 Okay, you start off the bands as a guitarist, ultimately 1:05:03.320 --> 1:05:06.320 you're a piano player. Tell us how what's going on there? 1:05:08.920 --> 1:05:11.400 Yeah? Again, you know I was always just doing you know, 1:05:11.520 --> 1:05:16.720 for me musically, I was just do whatever was required 1:05:16.760 --> 1:05:18.520 for the next song we were going to learn off 1:05:18.520 --> 1:05:21.920 of some record. You know. It was just it was 1:05:21.960 --> 1:05:23.680 if there was a piano on it. That's why I 1:05:23.760 --> 1:05:26.720 started playing piano again. Bands. Was all of a sudden 1:05:26.720 --> 1:05:28.880 there was these records coming out. They had keyboards and 1:05:32.160 --> 1:05:39.360 you know, yeah, so I I uh, would you know, 1:05:39.720 --> 1:05:43.080 just learned the song on that instrument, you know, as 1:05:43.120 --> 1:05:47.400 best I could, you know, and uh we would kind 1:05:47.400 --> 1:05:51.320 of come up with our own arrangement of it for 1:05:51.400 --> 1:05:55.400 a four piece band, you know. And so uh, you know, 1:05:55.560 --> 1:05:59.640 I kind of learned to play any instrument more from 1:05:59.680 --> 1:06:04.280 my experience with bands than from any formal training or 1:06:04.360 --> 1:06:07.560 lessons that I ever took on piano or or anything. 1:06:07.600 --> 1:06:11.480 You know, you have a unique voice. If we heard 1:06:11.520 --> 1:06:15.440 you sixty years ago, would you still sound like you 1:06:15.480 --> 1:06:19.200 do on your famous records? 1:06:19.240 --> 1:06:24.160 Probably not. I think the voice all by itself, for 1:06:24.280 --> 1:06:30.520 anyone is an ever changing instrument, you know. I mean, 1:06:30.560 --> 1:06:33.760 I think there's certain traits that remain, you know, are 1:06:33.800 --> 1:06:37.120 recognizable as remain. But as you get older, you know, 1:06:37.200 --> 1:06:39.880 you have to kind of adjust to what your strengths 1:06:39.880 --> 1:06:44.000 are at this point time physically as a singer. And 1:06:44.160 --> 1:06:47.160 I was always kind of a you know, if you 1:06:47.200 --> 1:06:52.600 have a two categories crooner screamer, I was always a 1:06:52.640 --> 1:06:55.280 little more to the screamer side of things, you know, 1:06:55.520 --> 1:06:59.560 and playing singing in keys that were probably a little 1:06:59.600 --> 1:07:05.920 bit technically too high for me, uh ah not, you know, 1:07:06.360 --> 1:07:10.640 not taking it easy, you know, in terms of kind 1:07:10.640 --> 1:07:13.320 of pushing my voice, you know, as much as I could, 1:07:13.360 --> 1:07:18.400 and I felt that that's what uh I could bring 1:07:18.480 --> 1:07:21.040 to you know, I could be you know, I could 1:07:21.080 --> 1:07:24.400 do the Mitch Ryder stuff, or the James Brown songs 1:07:24.480 --> 1:07:32.400 or the you know uh where. I paid for that 1:07:32.520 --> 1:07:35.120 later in like, you know, as I got older, I 1:07:35.160 --> 1:07:37.360 suddenly realized and even early on, I paid for it. 1:07:37.400 --> 1:07:39.919 I realized, you know, you can't just scream all the time. 1:07:40.280 --> 1:07:42.680 It won't be singing two years from now, you know. 1:07:43.160 --> 1:07:46.880 So I started to develop a style of singing for 1:07:47.000 --> 1:07:50.240 myself that had as much to do with function as 1:07:50.240 --> 1:07:52.560 it did with form. You know. It was so that 1:07:52.640 --> 1:07:55.919 I could keep singing all night, you know, and uh 1:07:56.360 --> 1:07:59.040 but that I could sound like I was really putting 1:07:59.040 --> 1:08:02.120 it out there, you know, which I was in one respect, 1:08:02.400 --> 1:08:05.720 But I was learning to not hurt myself in the process, 1:08:05.800 --> 1:08:09.280 you know. And uh I learned later when I started 1:08:09.280 --> 1:08:13.000 to become more acquainted with some of my favorite singers 1:08:13.080 --> 1:08:17.120 from that era, that they all had that they had 1:08:17.200 --> 1:08:20.080 all developed that some of the best gospel singers, you know, 1:08:20.120 --> 1:08:22.360 they just sound like they're ripping their own vocal cards 1:08:22.360 --> 1:08:25.920 out from the inside, but you know, they really have 1:08:26.280 --> 1:08:33.679 a technique that allows them to you know, just uh shout, 1:08:33.800 --> 1:08:39.759 scream this this song out, you know, uh, but without 1:08:39.800 --> 1:08:43.360 hurting themselves, you know, with it's a it's an intrinsic 1:08:43.479 --> 1:08:47.759 kind of ability that they develop, you know. And uh 1:08:48.520 --> 1:08:52.360 and and playing clubs I had. I found that that's 1:08:52.400 --> 1:08:54.080 one of the best things playing clubs did for me 1:08:54.200 --> 1:08:58.840 was allow me to develop my vocal uh style in 1:08:58.640 --> 1:09:04.599 a reasonable way, a four man function, you know, because 1:09:04.640 --> 1:09:08.320 I was saying enough all the time that I was 1:09:08.360 --> 1:09:11.120 able to kind of find my voice in the nightclubs 1:09:11.120 --> 1:09:11.719 that I played. 1:09:12.800 --> 1:09:16.639 Okay, some people are writing three songs a day. Other 1:09:16.760 --> 1:09:19.799 people write, you know, only when they have a record. 1:09:19.920 --> 1:09:22.320 Do what's your writing situation? 1:09:24.360 --> 1:09:26.479 Uh? You know, I think I've always been the guy 1:09:26.479 --> 1:09:28.400 who would be lucky to write three songs a year, 1:09:28.640 --> 1:09:32.200 you know. You know, I don't. I'm not a prolific 1:09:32.479 --> 1:09:37.400 writer again, you know, like like a lot of things musically, 1:09:37.479 --> 1:09:42.240 I I approach it with a like you know, there's 1:09:42.280 --> 1:09:43.680 not a time I go to write a song that 1:09:43.760 --> 1:09:46.680 I'm not thinking in the back of my mind, I 1:09:46.720 --> 1:09:49.080 don't know, do I know how to do this? It's 1:09:49.120 --> 1:09:53.439 been a while or you know, you again, you change 1:09:53.439 --> 1:09:57.759 your approach, you know, over the years, and I certainly 1:09:57.800 --> 1:10:00.439 have done that, you know, or are you to just 1:10:00.520 --> 1:10:03.960 write grooves on the piano and then come up with 1:10:04.000 --> 1:10:08.479 words for it would be a very simplistic way of 1:10:08.600 --> 1:10:11.599 looking at it. Uh. I started to kind of take 1:10:11.680 --> 1:10:13.920 the songs themselves a little more seriously and hope that 1:10:14.000 --> 1:10:18.240 I was maybe saying something uh lyrically that you know, 1:10:20.560 --> 1:10:24.800 people could relate to on a deeper level. And then, 1:10:25.000 --> 1:10:28.320 you know, musically, I wanted to do to you know, 1:10:28.880 --> 1:10:32.599 develop and and and that entailed both things being more simple, 1:10:32.800 --> 1:10:39.719 you know, taking you know, appreciating simplicity more in my writing. Uh. 1:10:40.600 --> 1:10:41.760 You know, I always felt like I was one of 1:10:41.760 --> 1:10:43.800 those guys that were whatever new thing I learned, I 1:10:43.800 --> 1:10:47.040 would use it to death till even I was sick 1:10:47.080 --> 1:10:49.640 of it, you know. Uh So I would always have 1:10:49.680 --> 1:10:53.680 to kind of go through that process to where it 1:10:54.600 --> 1:10:57.920 till it finally became something useful and meaningful for me. 1:10:58.040 --> 1:11:01.880 You know. When I started to of understand a little 1:11:01.960 --> 1:11:07.879 more theory where chord progressions and key changes and relative 1:11:07.960 --> 1:11:11.400 keys and all that were concerned, then I started to 1:11:11.400 --> 1:11:16.559 write songs that had more chords in it than music itself, 1:11:16.680 --> 1:11:20.400 you know, I mean and to it fault, you know. 1:11:21.240 --> 1:11:25.439 But you know, you go through your faces and you 1:11:25.439 --> 1:11:28.160 you hopefully come out on the other side having learned something, 1:11:28.240 --> 1:11:31.920 you know. So it's always been a learning process for me, 1:11:32.040 --> 1:11:38.080 you know. And I think with writing songs it will 1:11:38.120 --> 1:11:40.800 always be. I go through this kind of love hate 1:11:40.800 --> 1:11:43.240 thing where I feel like it's something I'm putting on 1:11:43.280 --> 1:11:46.880 the back burner, leaving it on the stove too long, 1:11:46.920 --> 1:11:49.200 and I'm not going to look back and see it's 1:11:49.280 --> 1:11:53.839 catching fire or not, you know, out and then something happens, 1:11:53.880 --> 1:11:56.040 like the dude has decided to do a new record, 1:11:56.040 --> 1:11:57.679 and all of a sudden, it's like, well, I guess 1:11:58.000 --> 1:12:00.599 I should pull out some of these notebook and start 1:12:00.680 --> 1:12:03.920 looking through them and seeing if I got anything here, 1:12:04.040 --> 1:12:06.000 you know, that I could make into a song, you know. 1:12:07.439 --> 1:12:09.760 And but I've never been one of those guys with 1:12:09.840 --> 1:12:13.160 a burning passion to write the next song. I've just 1:12:13.240 --> 1:12:19.360 been a musician who writes some music. And again, you know, 1:12:19.479 --> 1:12:22.800 I've worked with writers who are really very professional composers 1:12:22.800 --> 1:12:26.680 and take it very seriously, and that's a whole other 1:12:27.160 --> 1:12:31.240 level of songwriting to me. You know, it's a whole 1:12:31.280 --> 1:12:35.439 nother business of songwriting. For me, I'm just like I say, 1:12:35.520 --> 1:12:37.920 like one of the guys in the band, who's I 1:12:37.960 --> 1:12:40.240 got a song? You know what about this? You know, 1:12:41.360 --> 1:12:45.320 as opposed to you know, the very backrecs and people 1:12:45.360 --> 1:12:48.840 like that who do it very diligently and you know, 1:12:49.000 --> 1:12:52.200 take on huge projects like Broadway plays and movies and 1:12:52.240 --> 1:12:52.800 things like that. 1:12:52.920 --> 1:12:57.639 You know, Okay, I love, I keep forgetting. But your 1:12:57.680 --> 1:13:00.760 favorite song of mine is real love. Not only is 1:13:00.760 --> 1:13:04.880 it great musically, the lyrics are incredibly insightful. Tell me 1:13:04.960 --> 1:13:05.840 about that song. 1:13:08.080 --> 1:13:15.640 Uh, well, as I think for that song for me, 1:13:16.000 --> 1:13:22.439 uh was uh, you know, kind of I think one 1:13:22.439 --> 1:13:24.200 of one of the dobies. We started to kind of 1:13:24.800 --> 1:13:26.960 enter a little bit more into the you know, R 1:13:27.040 --> 1:13:28.880 and B world, but we always had that, you know, 1:13:29.560 --> 1:13:31.880 uh kind of one foot in the rock and roll world. 1:13:31.920 --> 1:13:34.920 And but our music started to develop a kind of 1:13:34.920 --> 1:13:38.280 an rhythm B lose uh sometimes even more of a 1:13:38.400 --> 1:13:44.439 jazz fusion feeling, and and that song was somewhere in 1:13:44.479 --> 1:13:46.720 between that. That song was one of one of our 1:13:46.720 --> 1:13:50.559 simpler songs. I actually cut the song for my solo, 1:13:50.760 --> 1:13:54.440 my first solo record, with Jeff Percaro and some other musicians. 1:13:54.479 --> 1:13:59.200 Steve luftre Think played on the date. Uh uh uh 1:14:00.479 --> 1:14:05.040 Patrick Henderson, Uh who I believe I wrote the song 1:14:05.080 --> 1:14:10.920 with it, if I'm not mistaken getting old to Foggy here, 1:14:10.960 --> 1:14:14.600 But we had cut a nice track of it, you know, 1:14:15.000 --> 1:14:17.600 and uh but at the time, I thought it was 1:14:17.760 --> 1:14:23.400 like the best thing I got. Right now, I'm not sure, Ah, 1:14:24.520 --> 1:14:26.840 I have anything I'm really half crazy about for the 1:14:26.880 --> 1:14:29.880 next Doobie's album, you know, and I saw I felt 1:14:29.920 --> 1:14:34.640 like I owed it to the Doobie's troject to do 1:14:34.960 --> 1:14:38.479 whatever I thought my best offering was, you know, and 1:14:38.520 --> 1:14:40.880 then I would figure out what to write for my 1:14:40.920 --> 1:14:44.760 solo record later because time wise and everything it was, 1:14:45.240 --> 1:14:48.479 it wasn't as urgent as the next Dewbie Brothers record was, uh, 1:14:48.720 --> 1:14:53.400 scheduling standpoint and all that. So I went it, went 1:14:53.400 --> 1:14:55.120 ahead and cut it with the band, and I think 1:14:55.160 --> 1:14:57.080 that was the version. I think that really turned out 1:14:57.120 --> 1:15:00.880 the best of that song. And it was a you know, 1:15:01.000 --> 1:15:04.519 providential that I cut it with those guys. You know, 1:15:04.560 --> 1:15:06.280 it was meant to be a do Bee brother song. 1:15:07.040 --> 1:15:10.440 But what about the lyrics. The lyrics are so you know, insightful. 1:15:11.479 --> 1:15:18.640 Yeah, uh, well yeah, I think, uh, it's just uh 1:15:20.040 --> 1:15:22.240 the song for me, it was about you know, how 1:15:23.080 --> 1:15:30.080 we when we can't find love, we uh, we're almost 1:15:30.080 --> 1:15:33.120 willing to accept anything in its place, you know that 1:15:33.280 --> 1:15:38.599 might at least allude to love, you know. Uh and 1:15:38.760 --> 1:15:41.880 uh and somehow that's the best we can do for 1:15:41.920 --> 1:15:48.559 a while, you know. And uh uh that's pretty much 1:15:48.560 --> 1:15:51.280 what the lyric was about. You know, let's let's let's 1:15:51.280 --> 1:15:54.920 pretend that that that that's what we have here and uh, 1:15:55.479 --> 1:16:01.760 because otherwise what are we doing here? You know? Uh? 1:16:01.840 --> 1:16:04.240 And I think a lot of people experience that with 1:16:04.240 --> 1:16:06.880 with love and in the pursuit of love. You know, 1:16:06.960 --> 1:16:09.599 there's so many things that we accept that are really 1:16:09.720 --> 1:16:11.680 less than love. You know. There's a song on the 1:16:11.760 --> 1:16:14.800 new Dubi Brother's album called it Ain't the kind of Last, 1:16:15.560 --> 1:16:19.559 And oddly enough, that's a reoccurring theme in my Uh. 1:16:19.280 --> 1:16:24.280 But I just think it's it's uh, what what most 1:16:24.280 --> 1:16:27.120 people experience in terms of the world of in the 1:16:27.120 --> 1:16:31.320 world of love, of love and relationship. Uh. I think 1:16:31.479 --> 1:16:33.439 what it is is we have to learn to love 1:16:33.439 --> 1:16:37.639 ourselves first, you know, and uh and then uh that 1:16:37.680 --> 1:16:42.200 love we're looking for will come uh in its own time. 1:16:43.280 --> 1:16:46.640 But until we the journey for most of us is 1:16:46.720 --> 1:16:49.599 learning to love ourselves first so that we can actually 1:16:49.800 --> 1:16:54.160 be in a position to accept something like real love. 1:16:54.240 --> 1:16:58.320 You know, uh in the process. I think I've written 1:16:58.320 --> 1:17:03.800 about that probably far too many times, but ah, it's 1:17:04.120 --> 1:17:06.880 you know, it's it's definitely a universal theme, you know. 1:17:11.080 --> 1:17:15.840 M what's the story if I got to try? 1:17:18.680 --> 1:17:22.559 I wrote that with Kenny and we Kenny login, Kenny 1:17:22.560 --> 1:17:30.120 logans yes, and the song is pretty self expen It 1:17:30.240 --> 1:17:33.080 was really basically like, you know, it's so easy to 1:17:33.520 --> 1:17:37.800 h m hm, look at the world around us and 1:17:37.840 --> 1:17:43.200 lose the ability to envision what it is we all want, 1:17:43.439 --> 1:17:46.840 you know, Uh, right now we're going to that. You know. 1:17:46.840 --> 1:17:48.439 We look at the world around us, we look at 1:17:48.439 --> 1:17:50.760 our options, we look at what's happening with people, We 1:17:50.880 --> 1:17:54.400 looking at the way people are treating each other. It's 1:17:54.520 --> 1:17:58.240 really easy to lose faith, you know, you know, humanity, 1:17:58.360 --> 1:18:06.200 you know, but that gift to envision something better, you know, 1:18:06.320 --> 1:18:08.599 the simple fact that we really all are the same, 1:18:08.680 --> 1:18:11.920 if we ever get around to accepting that reality and 1:18:11.920 --> 1:18:14.479 that we all want the same things, and that we 1:18:14.560 --> 1:18:17.040 could start there at any point in time that we 1:18:17.120 --> 1:18:20.439 really want to, you know, uh, if we just h 1:18:21.200 --> 1:18:23.920 respect each other and give each other the dignity to 1:18:24.000 --> 1:18:27.920 be who we are and not you know, uh somehow 1:18:28.920 --> 1:18:33.920 try to make a society that's exclusive for for whatever reason, uh, 1:18:35.560 --> 1:18:42.080 whether it's religion or politics or you know, money. You know, 1:18:42.439 --> 1:18:46.120 it makes us want to to go that path. You 1:18:46.160 --> 1:18:50.320 know that. You know, if you just keep your eye 1:18:50.400 --> 1:18:54.920 on the ball. You know, the flame of truth can 1:18:54.960 --> 1:18:58.120 only burn if we keep it in our sight. You know. 1:18:58.720 --> 1:19:04.040 Uh it Uh it'll go out if we stop seeing it, 1:19:04.200 --> 1:19:07.759 you know. Uh. And uh those people who were brave 1:19:07.840 --> 1:19:13.599 enough two to see it in spite of what uh 1:19:14.160 --> 1:19:18.200 reality of reality around them was telling them, you know, uh, 1:19:18.760 --> 1:19:22.280 but to keep that vision in their in their mind's 1:19:22.280 --> 1:19:25.760 eye and in their heart. Most of them paid for 1:19:25.840 --> 1:19:29.439 it with their lives, if on any on any real 1:19:29.720 --> 1:19:33.840 and important level, Those people who meant the most, who 1:19:34.000 --> 1:19:39.680 made the most change, which we died for it. Uh So. 1:19:41.680 --> 1:19:44.280 But I think as the average person, we we have 1:19:44.400 --> 1:19:47.880 to we have to take that vision that they handle us. 1:19:48.200 --> 1:19:50.840 We have to keep it alive. You know. If that's 1:19:50.880 --> 1:19:53.559 all we do, we're doing the right thing, you know, 1:19:56.160 --> 1:19:59.599 because you know, it's it's hard for us to understand 1:19:59.600 --> 1:20:02.040 that we're not really here for any other reason than 1:20:02.080 --> 1:20:05.639 to love each other. There's no other purpose for us 1:20:05.640 --> 1:20:11.360 to be here, you know, ah, and to act in 1:20:11.400 --> 1:20:15.920 the service of each other. You know, that's a that's 1:20:15.920 --> 1:20:20.320 a hard thing to grasp, uh, because there's all kinds 1:20:20.320 --> 1:20:27.800 of uh pitfalls that make us think that some reason 1:20:27.880 --> 1:20:30.600 we have to be afraid of something or someone, you know, 1:20:31.840 --> 1:20:35.479 and that we have to defend ourselves against each other. 1:20:35.600 --> 1:20:42.040 You know. It's it's shaped the world we live in 1:20:42.040 --> 1:20:44.360 in so many ways, but the reality is still the 1:20:44.400 --> 1:20:47.200 same reality. We're all the same and we all want 1:20:47.200 --> 1:20:49.720 the same things. And the sooner we get onto the 1:20:49.760 --> 1:20:53.519 business of being of service to each other, the better 1:20:53.560 --> 1:20:54.000 off will be. 1:20:56.000 --> 1:21:01.800 Okay, Steely Dan stops touring, you get a call to 1:21:01.920 --> 1:21:06.479 be with the Doobie Brothers. They are on the road 1:21:06.960 --> 1:21:11.519 promoting a record. Tom Johnston has to go home. You're 1:21:11.560 --> 1:21:15.280 not a backup singer. Now, You're not sitting behind Walter 1:21:15.439 --> 1:21:18.720 and Donald. You're the front person. I mean all I know, 1:21:19.320 --> 1:21:22.200 I mean everyone knows the Doobie Brothers hits. I did 1:21:22.240 --> 1:21:25.479 not become a real fan until the spring of seventy five, 1:21:26.000 --> 1:21:27.920 when I live with these guys and they played well, 1:21:27.960 --> 1:21:32.040 what were one's vices? Are now habits at infinitum. Therefore, 1:21:32.080 --> 1:21:34.200 when the next album came out, I bought it the 1:21:34.240 --> 1:21:36.680 day came out, and I was surprised. I played it 1:21:36.720 --> 1:21:39.320 to death, but I was surprised. What was it like 1:21:39.439 --> 1:21:42.799 from your viewpoint to take the stage with the audience 1:21:42.880 --> 1:21:46.400 having one expectation of the Doobie Brothers and there you are. 1:21:49.600 --> 1:21:55.040 It was surreal, really because there was no shortage of 1:21:55.280 --> 1:21:58.200 you know, when I was singing one of Tom's songs, 1:21:58.200 --> 1:22:05.519 you know, there was you know that you know, voices 1:22:05.520 --> 1:22:07.680 in the audience like where's Tom? You know, you know, 1:22:07.920 --> 1:22:15.040 and obviously you know, uh And I don't know that 1:22:15.120 --> 1:22:19.000 there was any real announcements to the public about where 1:22:19.120 --> 1:22:23.040 Tom wasn't there, you know. Uh. I there must have been, 1:22:23.080 --> 1:22:26.599 you know, but not as far as in a moment 1:22:26.920 --> 1:22:30.639 on the show. We just you know, kind of put 1:22:30.640 --> 1:22:32.760 our heads down and played the songs the best we could. 1:22:33.040 --> 1:22:35.000 And and like you said, I was singing some of 1:22:35.160 --> 1:22:37.720 Tom's songs, you know, and Pat was taking the rest 1:22:37.720 --> 1:22:43.280 of them, you know. Uh. I don't think the audience 1:22:43.320 --> 1:22:46.080 has ever stopped missing Tom when he wasn't there, you know, 1:22:46.120 --> 1:22:49.040 I don't think it ever. It was like something that oh, well, 1:22:50.720 --> 1:22:53.600 you know we we miss him, but not now. It 1:22:53.800 --> 1:22:58.000 was ongoing, you know. Ah and to this day, you know, 1:22:58.680 --> 1:23:01.320 I think the best form of the Dubies to this 1:23:01.479 --> 1:23:04.559 day is with Tom and uh when we go out 1:23:04.560 --> 1:23:07.960 and play, we we enjoy a whole other kind of 1:23:08.120 --> 1:23:10.720 energy with the band, to the band and to our 1:23:10.760 --> 1:23:17.000 live performance with Tom there. You know, there's not any 1:23:17.000 --> 1:23:21.200 of us that would would would rather not have him there. 1:23:21.280 --> 1:23:24.720 You know, it's it's the best. Like I said, the 1:23:24.760 --> 1:23:28.840 best form of the Doobies areas for all of us. Uh. 1:23:28.920 --> 1:23:31.639 But we we did play you know without him for 1:23:31.640 --> 1:23:37.680 for could spend time there and uh that we we 1:23:37.800 --> 1:23:42.280 kind of closed ranks musically, you know in some ways. Uh, 1:23:44.000 --> 1:23:48.040 but uh it was never hard to you know, uh 1:23:49.680 --> 1:23:51.960 take the stage with Tom again. You know, it was 1:23:52.000 --> 1:23:54.759 a natural thing, you know. Uh he takes his place 1:23:54.800 --> 1:23:58.920 in the band rightfully. So uh uh and uh you 1:23:58.960 --> 1:24:02.800 know in many ways need to charge musically when he's there. 1:24:04.880 --> 1:24:08.280 For me, I always enjoyed playing his music, you know, 1:24:09.960 --> 1:24:13.799 you know, with or without Tom there, I just always 1:24:13.880 --> 1:24:17.080 loved the songs. You know, long train and listen to 1:24:17.200 --> 1:24:22.160 music as a silver I have to say, guilty pleasure. 1:24:22.160 --> 1:24:24.960 I enjoyed singing them too, you know. So when Tom 1:24:24.960 --> 1:24:27.040 would come back and I was like, Okay, well I 1:24:27.040 --> 1:24:30.479 don't get to sing that anymore. But but in some 1:24:30.520 --> 1:24:33.080 ways it was kind of fun too, because I would 1:24:33.120 --> 1:24:34.880 pay a little more attention to what I was playing, 1:24:34.880 --> 1:24:37.080 because when I'm singing and playing, I have to kind 1:24:37.080 --> 1:24:39.400 of dumb down my part a little bit just so 1:24:39.479 --> 1:24:42.080 that I pay attention to singing a song enough, you know. 1:24:42.840 --> 1:24:45.960 So when he would come back, I'd find, oh, I 1:24:45.840 --> 1:24:48.040 got to play orient on this in this section, or 1:24:48.040 --> 1:24:51.880 I could do this, and so it was always, you know, 1:24:52.000 --> 1:24:54.760 some part of that that was enjoyable too. But I 1:24:55.200 --> 1:24:58.200 always enjoyed the Doobie Songbook. I was missed playing it 1:24:58.200 --> 1:25:01.280 when I wasn't with the band. Enjoy my own songbook, 1:25:01.280 --> 1:25:05.280 and there's there's songs that I miss playing for my 1:25:05.439 --> 1:25:11.400 solo shows, but uh, but truly with the Doobies, it 1:25:11.479 --> 1:25:13.040 was always it was a lot of fun and a 1:25:13.080 --> 1:25:16.840 lot in a thrill to come back and play Blackwater 1:25:17.000 --> 1:25:20.280 and There's a Driven Snow, all these songs that I 1:25:20.320 --> 1:25:23.880 had really missed playing, you know, because a lot of 1:25:23.960 --> 1:25:27.600 them are are a little different, uh, more rock and 1:25:27.680 --> 1:25:29.800 roll than what I do on my own, you know, 1:25:29.920 --> 1:25:32.000 while which is a little bit more of an R 1:25:32.080 --> 1:25:36.880 and B and in my show, I probably do more 1:25:36.920 --> 1:25:42.320 ballads than this band does, you know. Uh, but you 1:25:42.360 --> 1:25:44.519 know it's uh. That's the biggest part of it for 1:25:44.600 --> 1:25:46.360 me is being a part of this band, is the 1:25:46.439 --> 1:25:51.200 being given the opportunity to play these this songbook for 1:25:51.320 --> 1:25:54.040 the audience that loves it so much. Because some of 1:25:54.120 --> 1:25:56.599 these people have been coming to see us for fifty years, 1:25:56.680 --> 1:26:01.960 you know, and we we appreciate that. You know, that's 1:26:02.040 --> 1:26:04.479 as much a part of the experience for us as 1:26:04.520 --> 1:26:07.120 it is for them. You know, I'm not sure that 1:26:07.280 --> 1:26:09.040 any of us would be sick to death of all 1:26:09.080 --> 1:26:11.680 these songs by now it wasn't for the audiences that 1:26:11.720 --> 1:26:13.160 we play for every night. 1:26:14.640 --> 1:26:18.439 Okay, you have taken it to the streets, living in 1:26:18.479 --> 1:26:20.800 the on the fault lines, not really going in the 1:26:20.880 --> 1:26:25.639 right direction commercially, minute by minute, you know, is a 1:26:25.720 --> 1:26:31.800 gigantic success before it's released, Do you or anybody in 1:26:31.840 --> 1:26:33.200 the band know what you have? 1:26:35.960 --> 1:26:38.479 I don't think we had a lot of confidence in that. Well. 1:26:38.479 --> 1:26:42.840 I should always speak for myself. I remember playing it 1:26:42.880 --> 1:26:45.400 for a friend of mine and who I trusted is 1:26:45.520 --> 1:26:49.760 musical taste. I didn't trust that much else about him, 1:26:49.760 --> 1:26:54.360 but I trusted in musical taste. And I knew he knew, 1:26:55.920 --> 1:26:57.920 you know, a good record when he heard it, you know, 1:26:58.040 --> 1:27:01.639 And so I had the rough mix. I said, I'm 1:27:01.640 --> 1:27:03.240 going to play this for you, and I was so 1:27:03.360 --> 1:27:05.280 desperate to play it for him. I met him while 1:27:05.280 --> 1:27:07.760 he was shopping somewhere. We sat in his car on 1:27:07.800 --> 1:27:11.400 the parking lot, and I said, you know, indulge me 1:27:11.439 --> 1:27:13.000 and listen to this and tell me what you think. 1:27:13.280 --> 1:27:15.759 Give me your honest opinion, because I think I needed 1:27:15.760 --> 1:27:18.040 an honest opinion. I knew if I played it for 1:27:18.080 --> 1:27:20.559 most other people, I knew they would even if they 1:27:20.600 --> 1:27:23.559 hated it, they would struggle to find some positive spin, 1:27:23.720 --> 1:27:26.559 you know. So I knew this guy would give me 1:27:26.640 --> 1:27:32.000 the unabashed opinion that he had, you know. So we 1:27:32.280 --> 1:27:36.719 listened to it. He kind of about halfway through the album, 1:27:36.720 --> 1:27:39.240 when he wasn't looking at me, I sort of suspected, 1:27:41.160 --> 1:27:44.559 doesn't look good. And then when the last song finished, 1:27:44.560 --> 1:27:46.639 he just kind of stared straight ahead for a minute. 1:27:48.120 --> 1:27:53.040 It looked over ringas this is a piece of shit, sorry, 1:27:53.200 --> 1:27:58.120 you know, And I remember what came out of my mouth. 1:27:58.160 --> 1:28:00.880 It was like I said something I was afraid of 1:28:00.920 --> 1:28:04.400 that or something. You know. It's like I co signed it, 1:28:04.439 --> 1:28:07.960 you know, for that moment, you know, because I didn't know. 1:28:08.040 --> 1:28:09.519 I didn't know if it was a good album or not. 1:28:09.640 --> 1:28:11.839 You know, I didn't know if this was me taking 1:28:11.880 --> 1:28:15.720 the band down for the last time and into the 1:28:15.720 --> 1:28:19.200 shitter and h never to return. You know. It was 1:28:19.240 --> 1:28:22.240 my biggest share in the moment. So when he responded 1:28:22.280 --> 1:28:25.160 that way, it was like it was like, ah see, 1:28:25.200 --> 1:28:31.680 I knew it, you know. Uh, And I is that 1:28:31.840 --> 1:28:35.000 really affected me. For the next few weeks when we 1:28:35.000 --> 1:28:38.200 weren't working, I was sitting around in my bathroom, you know, 1:28:38.760 --> 1:28:44.360 watching late night television, you know, uh, smoking pot, trying 1:28:44.360 --> 1:28:47.080 to forget it all, you know. You know, I was 1:28:47.120 --> 1:28:49.240 really in the dumps, you know, about the whole thing. 1:28:50.400 --> 1:28:56.640 And next thing I hear is the records come out 1:28:56.680 --> 1:29:00.800 of the box like like a racehorse, you know, going on. 1:29:00.880 --> 1:29:04.559 The charts were sold thirty thousand units the first week, 1:29:04.680 --> 1:29:08.160 and and I'm like, what, you know, are we talking 1:29:08.200 --> 1:29:11.160 about the same record here? And because even the people 1:29:11.200 --> 1:29:13.400 at Warner Brothers weren't that crazy about it, From what 1:29:13.560 --> 1:29:16.040 I understand, later on, people would tell me, Yeah, I 1:29:16.080 --> 1:29:18.080 was at that a at Army when they played your record. 1:29:18.479 --> 1:29:25.120 He was like, yeah, so it was a big surprise 1:29:25.360 --> 1:29:27.439 to all of us that it did so well. In fact, 1:29:27.560 --> 1:29:30.439 I think we were breaking up. We were at the 1:29:30.479 --> 1:29:33.600 end of a Japan tour. We had gotten into some 1:29:33.720 --> 1:29:38.840 moraw over something and decided that's it, we're breaking up, 1:29:38.880 --> 1:29:41.240 you know nothing, that we're not going to do this anymore. 1:29:41.280 --> 1:29:43.920 We're all really, really tired. This was the end of 1:29:44.040 --> 1:29:48.080 six months of solid touring, you know, and we're so 1:29:48.160 --> 1:29:53.879 we decided, okay, we're going to break up. And somehow 1:29:53.960 --> 1:29:55.680 on our way home, a couple of us went to 1:29:55.720 --> 1:29:59.120 Hawaii just for some R and R kind of you know, 1:30:00.320 --> 1:30:02.439 look our wounds and figure out what we're going to 1:30:02.479 --> 1:30:07.880 do with our lives. I got to call for pat because, yeah, 1:30:08.120 --> 1:30:11.240 it seems like we've got to like a record. It's 1:30:11.240 --> 1:30:13.559 going to be number one, you know, in a couple 1:30:13.600 --> 1:30:19.040 of weeks by any all accounts, and I don't know, 1:30:19.080 --> 1:30:22.280 maybe we should think about staying together a little longer 1:30:22.320 --> 1:30:25.400 and going on touring. And so that's what we decided. 1:30:25.720 --> 1:30:28.120 You know, how do you how do you break up 1:30:28.120 --> 1:30:35.400 when you have the top ten album and single and 1:30:35.520 --> 1:30:37.920 you know, it wasn't like we all we all weren't friends. 1:30:37.920 --> 1:30:40.200 We all got along. We know, if we had our arguments, 1:30:40.240 --> 1:30:43.400 it was just usually frustration and we think the normal 1:30:43.439 --> 1:30:47.240 things that bands go through. But we all really always 1:30:47.760 --> 1:30:50.080 were cognizant of the fact that we loved each other 1:30:50.080 --> 1:30:55.400 as friends first, and it was really you know, what 1:30:55.560 --> 1:31:00.680 was most important. You know, I think you know, uh, 1:31:01.680 --> 1:31:06.040 it's it's it's too easy to let heavy resentments become 1:31:06.640 --> 1:31:09.920 like your whole relationship with a person. And for whatever reason, 1:31:09.960 --> 1:31:13.679 I don't know that it was because we're such incredible people, 1:31:13.760 --> 1:31:17.400 but we never we never seemed to do that, you know, 1:31:17.479 --> 1:31:22.240 we we always stopped short of that. And if we 1:31:22.600 --> 1:31:25.439 and it has had a beef with each other, we 1:31:25.439 --> 1:31:30.479 we worked it out and we apologize, you know, and 1:31:31.080 --> 1:31:33.639 kind of go forward, you know from there as friends. 1:31:33.680 --> 1:31:37.920 You know. Uh. Again, I don't know how we accomplished 1:31:37.960 --> 1:31:42.280 that and any but other than it was more important 1:31:42.320 --> 1:31:48.360 to us just to remain friends. 1:31:51.439 --> 1:31:57.320 Okay, yes, you're saying back up in steely Dan, but 1:31:57.479 --> 1:32:00.519 that was seen as the two being guys you were 1:32:00.560 --> 1:32:03.759 in the Doobie Brothers. Patti is now the focus, even 1:32:03.760 --> 1:32:07.599 though you have tracks on the records minute by minute 1:32:07.640 --> 1:32:12.400 comes out. It is not only ubiquitous. You become one 1:32:12.439 --> 1:32:17.440 of the biggest stars in the world. You're singing backups 1:32:17.479 --> 1:32:21.040 on different What was that many people spin out at 1:32:21.080 --> 1:32:24.120 that point? What was that like for you? And how 1:32:24.200 --> 1:32:27.520 did you cope? 1:32:27.880 --> 1:32:31.920 Uh? Well, I mean that perception of you know, a 1:32:31.960 --> 1:32:34.800 big star. I you know, I don't know, you know, 1:32:35.400 --> 1:32:37.760 I had my moments, you know. I'm sure I was 1:32:37.840 --> 1:32:41.599 hard to live with, you know, more than once or twice, 1:32:41.720 --> 1:32:49.040 you know. And uh, I remember talking to a friend 1:32:49.080 --> 1:32:52.040 of mine, you know, and guy to grew up with, 1:32:52.160 --> 1:32:56.839 and he said to me, gosh, you know, we all 1:32:57.600 --> 1:33:00.800 we all had these aspirations, you know when we played 1:33:00.840 --> 1:33:03.360 together back in the day. Because he because, man, and 1:33:03.439 --> 1:33:06.439 you've really done it. You you know, you're you're there, 1:33:06.640 --> 1:33:10.639 you know. And I remember thinking how it was so 1:33:10.680 --> 1:33:14.360 strange to hear that, you know, because I guess I 1:33:14.479 --> 1:33:17.320 was so wrapped up in the day to day uh, 1:33:17.840 --> 1:33:21.240 frustrations of my own and feeling like, you know, a 1:33:21.240 --> 1:33:23.599 lot of it was that that what happens to people. 1:33:23.760 --> 1:33:26.599 It's never enough, you know, you're you're you're sitting around 1:33:26.680 --> 1:33:29.679 bitching about shit that you know you should be grateful 1:33:29.720 --> 1:33:33.200 for you know. Uh, you know, I was that guy, 1:33:33.320 --> 1:33:35.400 you know. I mean I didn't have to sign the 1:33:35.439 --> 1:33:38.640 sense to relax and realize that, hey, I should be 1:33:38.680 --> 1:33:41.880 nothing but grateful right now. I shouldn't be sitting around here, 1:33:42.640 --> 1:33:46.639 you know, worrying about half the crap I worry about 1:33:46.640 --> 1:33:50.919 because it's not important. What's important is I've been blessed, 1:33:51.040 --> 1:33:53.880 you know. And if I don't realize that now, I'm 1:33:53.920 --> 1:34:00.160 never going to realize that, you know. But uh, you know, 1:34:00.240 --> 1:34:03.720 I always approached the whole starting thing with a lot 1:34:03.720 --> 1:34:07.160 of trepidation, you know, like you know, the minute I 1:34:07.200 --> 1:34:10.560 walked through the door into the room, it's going to 1:34:10.800 --> 1:34:12.840 become when it's going to be when it becomes very 1:34:12.840 --> 1:34:17.240 obvious that I don't deserve this, you know. And uh 1:34:17.280 --> 1:34:19.439 so I was always kind of kind of you know, 1:34:19.520 --> 1:34:22.519 backing out of the room with it, you know, just 1:34:22.560 --> 1:34:24.880 for self preservation more than anything. It wasn't that I 1:34:24.960 --> 1:34:27.439 was modest. It was just I didn't really want you 1:34:27.520 --> 1:34:29.400 to see me for who I thought I really was. 1:34:29.479 --> 1:34:35.360 You know, I didn't you know, I didn't have the 1:34:35.439 --> 1:34:37.880 social prowess to be at this party. You know, That's 1:34:37.960 --> 1:34:40.680 kind of how I felt, you know, so when I 1:34:40.760 --> 1:34:45.240 went off as a solo artist h after my solo record, 1:34:46.320 --> 1:34:48.680 I couldn't have had a better band I had. You know, 1:34:49.120 --> 1:34:52.360 edro Winter was in the band, Robin Ford was playing guitar, 1:34:53.320 --> 1:34:59.920 George Pearley on drums, you know, just great musicians, Willie 1:35:00.040 --> 1:35:08.880 Inks on bass, Brian on piano. I was, you know, 1:35:09.800 --> 1:35:12.519 it still wasn't enough for me to feel like comfortable 1:35:12.600 --> 1:35:15.280 up there, you know, fronting the band, you know, being 1:35:15.360 --> 1:35:20.200 the guy in the spotlight. Those are really painful times 1:35:20.200 --> 1:35:24.799 for me just personally, you know, and I was always 1:35:24.840 --> 1:35:27.120 just trying to kind of hide that from everybody. You know, 1:35:27.160 --> 1:35:30.320 that guy, Hey, I got this, you know, but I 1:35:30.360 --> 1:35:32.880 don't got this, you know. At the same time, you know, 1:35:34.240 --> 1:35:36.559 I had to work my way through all that, and eventually, 1:35:36.600 --> 1:35:38.400 as a solo artist, I got to where I really 1:35:38.479 --> 1:35:41.840 enjoyed it. I got comfortable with it. But I didn't 1:35:42.040 --> 1:35:44.720 ask myself to be a star anymore. You know, I 1:35:44.760 --> 1:35:48.680 didn't expect myself to be a front man extravagant. You 1:35:48.720 --> 1:35:53.400 know that that guy was, you know, the best show 1:35:53.400 --> 1:35:57.479 in town. You know, I just I accepted the fact 1:35:57.479 --> 1:36:01.599 that I'm a pianel player, singer, I can deliver a song. Well, 1:36:01.920 --> 1:36:04.800 and I got a great band, and if that's what 1:36:04.880 --> 1:36:07.200 people came to hear, I got it covered, you know. 1:36:08.240 --> 1:36:11.080 And I can put together a show. I can sequence 1:36:11.120 --> 1:36:13.840 the songs. I can come up with the arrangements. I 1:36:13.840 --> 1:36:16.160 think we're best live. I can do all that stuff, 1:36:16.240 --> 1:36:19.000 and I can talk to the audience, you know, genuinely, 1:36:19.320 --> 1:36:22.160 but not try to be somebody I'm not, hopefully you know. 1:36:24.000 --> 1:36:27.840 And so you know, so it's kind of like the 1:36:28.120 --> 1:36:30.880 Perry Como of rock and roll or something, you know, 1:36:31.080 --> 1:36:34.519 just you know, trying to be comfortable in my own skin, 1:36:34.680 --> 1:36:34.880 you know. 1:36:35.360 --> 1:36:38.920 Okay, how much of this is raw insecurity or is 1:36:38.920 --> 1:36:43.439 it also leavened with social anxiety? Is it purely I 1:36:43.439 --> 1:36:46.439 don't want the spotlight on me, or if there's a 1:36:46.520 --> 1:36:50.720 room of people, I'd rather be home in the hotel room. 1:36:51.520 --> 1:36:53.519 I think a little bit of the letter, you know. 1:36:54.560 --> 1:36:58.600 I don't think I ever really felt comfortable in social situations, 1:36:58.640 --> 1:37:01.760 you know, even whether it's a small situation or Lord, 1:37:02.000 --> 1:37:04.559 I'm actually more comfortable in front of ten thousand people 1:37:04.560 --> 1:37:06.800 than I am in a room with five or six, 1:37:06.960 --> 1:37:11.920 you know, uh, because I know what I gotta do 1:37:12.000 --> 1:37:13.920 in front of ten thousand people. I just got to 1:37:13.960 --> 1:37:16.400 sing the song and play the right chords, you know, 1:37:16.560 --> 1:37:21.680 and I got all these other guys doing you know, 1:37:22.200 --> 1:37:26.479 uh the same making the same effort for the same reason. 1:37:26.640 --> 1:37:29.640 So uh, that's that's a lot more comfortable for me 1:37:29.760 --> 1:37:36.439 then uh. Uh, you know, being uh in you know, 1:37:36.520 --> 1:37:38.519 in the spotlight per se as we say, you know, 1:37:38.880 --> 1:37:41.320 and that's how people feel. I think in social situations, 1:37:41.320 --> 1:37:44.120 you feel like the world of this room is revolving 1:37:44.120 --> 1:37:47.840 around me at the moment, and usually it's couldn't referther 1:37:47.920 --> 1:37:51.880 from the truth. But you know, uh, that's that's part 1:37:51.880 --> 1:37:54.840 of having a self confidence to know that much, you know, 1:37:55.280 --> 1:37:57.400 to know that you're not the center of attention right now. 1:37:57.479 --> 1:38:00.519 You know, those of us who were in six tend 1:38:00.560 --> 1:38:02.759 to think we are okay. 1:38:03.080 --> 1:38:05.640 So with this lead date, if you're not on the 1:38:05.760 --> 1:38:08.200 road and you're home with your wife, your kids are 1:38:08.240 --> 1:38:11.000 out of the house, are you the type of person 1:38:11.040 --> 1:38:15.120 who's ringing up all your friends making social engagements? Are 1:38:15.120 --> 1:38:17.320 you the type person, Well, somebody reaches out to me, 1:38:17.760 --> 1:38:20.160 I'll reconnect, but more I'm doing my own thing. 1:38:22.520 --> 1:38:25.360 I'd rather do my own thing, you know. My wife 1:38:25.400 --> 1:38:28.120 and I would like to kind of covet our time 1:38:28.200 --> 1:38:30.800 together when I'm home, because lately it seems like I've 1:38:30.800 --> 1:38:33.960 been busier than ever, you know, I really there was 1:38:34.000 --> 1:38:36.040 a period of time just prior to this, of course 1:38:36.040 --> 1:38:39.679 with COVID too, but we we really enjoyed just being 1:38:39.720 --> 1:38:43.439 alone together, you know, and being kind of isolated to 1:38:43.560 --> 1:38:45.439 a fall, you know, because I think we got we 1:38:45.520 --> 1:38:49.439 got to be like homebodies, you know. But but I 1:38:49.439 --> 1:38:53.040 have always been that way. I've always been more comfortable alone, 1:38:53.160 --> 1:38:56.840 you know, in my own little world. And and my 1:38:56.920 --> 1:39:02.360 wife and I are soulmates to large degree. We you know, 1:39:02.360 --> 1:39:10.240 We're very comfortable with each other. You know, I would 1:39:10.400 --> 1:39:14.559 rather not have a lot of social obligations. It comes 1:39:14.600 --> 1:39:18.360 with the territory being being a musician and a celebrity 1:39:18.400 --> 1:39:21.960 musician or whatever. Uh So there's always something going on 1:39:22.040 --> 1:39:25.160 that I have to do, ah and and it's not 1:39:25.200 --> 1:39:26.880 that I don't enjoy them once I get there, but 1:39:26.960 --> 1:39:29.000 I never feel like doing that, you know. I always 1:39:29.040 --> 1:39:32.960 feel like, God, I'm gonna have to get ready for this. 1:39:33.000 --> 1:39:34.920 What's the song they want me to do? I gotta 1:39:34.960 --> 1:39:37.880 remember remember the lyrics, you know, all that stuff that 1:39:37.960 --> 1:39:41.559 you go through, and you wonder if you know Am 1:39:41.560 --> 1:39:44.280 I going to say something stupid backstage, you know, to 1:39:44.400 --> 1:39:50.519 somebody you know, but you you do it. But my brothers, 1:39:50.560 --> 1:39:53.080 I would rather just go down to the beach with 1:39:53.120 --> 1:39:56.439 the dogs and you know, get as much of that 1:39:56.560 --> 1:39:58.519 kind of time in as I can while I can. 1:39:58.680 --> 1:39:58.920 You know. 1:40:00.040 --> 1:40:03.599 Okay, you make a record with the woman Amy who 1:40:03.720 --> 1:40:08.040 is now your wife, you reconnect years later, it becomes 1:40:08.040 --> 1:40:11.160 a romance. We're guys, we know how this works. In 1:40:11.160 --> 1:40:13.760 the back of your mind, did you say, oh, that 1:40:13.840 --> 1:40:17.080 woman Amy, maybe she's right, I got a thing for that. 1:40:17.720 --> 1:40:20.760 Or was it like, holy fuck, now it's Amy and 1:40:20.800 --> 1:40:22.439 we're connected. What was it like? 1:40:24.360 --> 1:40:26.519 I think I always had a crush on her, you know, 1:40:26.600 --> 1:40:30.640 from the first time I met her. You know, she 1:40:30.840 --> 1:40:36.960 just was very special to me, you know. And it 1:40:36.960 --> 1:40:39.080 wasn't like I hadn't been in love before, you know, 1:40:39.479 --> 1:40:41.439 someone who was very special to me. You know, I 1:40:41.560 --> 1:40:45.160 had a crush on you know, like most guys, you know, 1:40:46.040 --> 1:40:49.600 but she stood out, you know to me. And I 1:40:50.120 --> 1:40:52.360 loved her voice too when I when I worked with her, 1:40:52.880 --> 1:40:59.280 she just said such a kind of a I would 1:40:59.520 --> 1:41:02.160 consider kind of a sexy voice to me. You know, 1:41:03.080 --> 1:41:06.240 she wasn't a belter you know, she wasn't like this 1:41:06.520 --> 1:41:10.760 powerhouse female singer. She was more of a kind of 1:41:10.760 --> 1:41:15.160 a folky not even met Joni Mitchell or Alison Krause 1:41:15.280 --> 1:41:17.360 kind of you know, where she had kind of a 1:41:17.479 --> 1:41:20.920 very ethereal tambre to her voice. It was, you know, 1:41:22.200 --> 1:41:25.519 they're feminine and beautiful, you know, and brought a certain 1:41:25.600 --> 1:41:33.479 kind of feeling too melody, you know. And I always 1:41:33.600 --> 1:41:35.639 liked that she had a yeol little too. She always 1:41:35.720 --> 1:41:38.479 used to kind of yield a little bit when she sang, 1:41:38.520 --> 1:41:43.960 and I just enjoyed her voice very much. I always 1:41:43.960 --> 1:41:46.000 thought if I ever produced somebody, I would like to 1:41:46.040 --> 1:41:48.400 do a record with her, you know, But I hadn't 1:41:48.400 --> 1:41:51.240 thought about it that much recently until this year of 1:41:51.240 --> 1:41:53.360 the night we played the Forum again in LA and 1:41:53.400 --> 1:41:55.920 that's actually where we got back together. We met again 1:41:56.000 --> 1:41:58.640 because she was in the audience and she sent a 1:41:58.680 --> 1:42:01.000 note up to do one of the guys it was 1:42:01.080 --> 1:42:04.640 mixing front of the house back to me and uh 1:42:05.520 --> 1:42:07.639 and uh. So I got in touch with her and 1:42:07.680 --> 1:42:10.679 I said, well, well, well we should definitely think about 1:42:11.520 --> 1:42:14.839 doing a record, you know, with you and uh And 1:42:15.000 --> 1:42:16.479 in the back of my mind I wanted to see 1:42:16.479 --> 1:42:23.360 her again. You know. So when we got together, we 1:42:23.360 --> 1:42:26.280 we hit it off like it was you know, we 1:42:26.360 --> 1:42:30.120 hadn't as if we'd been friends the whole time, you know, 1:42:30.240 --> 1:42:33.080 and uh, there's just something about her that it was 1:42:33.080 --> 1:42:38.640 was immediately engaging to me, you know. And uh, the 1:42:38.720 --> 1:42:40.840 record we did was fun, but it was it was 1:42:41.200 --> 1:42:44.240 I had trouble committing to a time frame because I 1:42:44.280 --> 1:42:46.400 was touring with the band, and so it took a 1:42:46.400 --> 1:42:48.439 better part of a couple of years to do the record. 1:42:48.520 --> 1:42:51.679 But every time that we got in the studio together, 1:42:51.840 --> 1:42:55.320 it was a real joy, you know. Uh. And Amy 1:42:55.680 --> 1:42:59.120 you know really uh I started to rediscover her talent, 1:42:59.240 --> 1:43:01.599 you know, and was as much a part of it. 1:43:01.720 --> 1:43:05.120 So to you know, to actually finish that record and uh, 1:43:07.280 --> 1:43:10.559 you know, get nominated for a Grammy with it, you know, 1:43:10.600 --> 1:43:13.040 it was like, you know, like the dream come true. 1:43:13.120 --> 1:43:15.799 You know for me, I I to be a producer 1:43:15.840 --> 1:43:18.880 at all would have been a dream come true. But uh, 1:43:19.680 --> 1:43:22.120 Patrick Henderson and I produced that record on her and 1:43:22.800 --> 1:43:26.920 for Capital, and so you know that was uh and 1:43:27.040 --> 1:43:29.599 in course of all of it, we you know, uh 1:43:30.680 --> 1:43:37.800 kind of uh reunited in a relationship that uh had 1:43:38.080 --> 1:43:43.320 you know been you know, we had met in the 1:43:43.400 --> 1:43:46.800 years past from time to time, and even you know, uh, 1:43:47.640 --> 1:43:50.599 you know, I knew that we had something between us, 1:43:50.640 --> 1:43:54.080 but it seemed like we always went separate ways, you know, 1:43:54.520 --> 1:43:57.080 and I, you know, I wasn't really at that point 1:43:57.080 --> 1:44:01.320 in my life a good you know, as far as 1:44:01.560 --> 1:44:07.120 you know, relationship material, and probably she wasn't either, you know. 1:44:07.200 --> 1:44:10.240 We were just both kind of pursuing our careers, living 1:44:10.240 --> 1:44:16.280 our lives, you know, as best we could. So now 1:44:16.360 --> 1:44:20.639 you know, we were working together and we were pretty 1:44:20.680 --> 1:44:23.920 much in constant contact again, and it was inevitable, I think, 1:44:24.040 --> 1:44:27.679 for us to get together and get married have kids. 1:44:28.280 --> 1:44:31.040 And that's the remarkable part to me. I look back 1:44:31.080 --> 1:44:33.960 on some of the first times I met her, thinking, 1:44:34.760 --> 1:44:36.439 you know, I wish you didn't have a boyfriend and 1:44:36.479 --> 1:44:39.320 you know, or whatever it was at the time. And 1:44:41.720 --> 1:44:43.760 to think that all these years later we rapsed two 1:44:43.840 --> 1:44:48.200 kids together and were in their thirties and been married 1:44:48.200 --> 1:44:50.760 for almost you know, coming up on fifty years here 1:44:50.800 --> 1:44:53.599 in Attle, while kind of amazing. 1:44:53.680 --> 1:44:57.519 You know, when she sent that note, do you think 1:44:57.560 --> 1:45:00.360 in the back of her mind she thought romance too. 1:45:02.960 --> 1:45:06.880 I don't know, I don't know. I think she might 1:45:06.920 --> 1:45:09.519 have been thinking more of maybe maybe this guy could 1:45:09.520 --> 1:45:13.280 produce my next rador, but I'll take it. Whatever it was. 1:45:13.320 --> 1:45:15.840 It was we were we were laughing the other night 1:45:15.880 --> 1:45:18.080 because she was at the gig with me for him. 1:45:18.800 --> 1:45:23.040 This is where it all started, you know. You know, 1:45:23.640 --> 1:45:25.360 we hadn't thought about that in a while until we 1:45:25.360 --> 1:45:27.240 were kind of sitting around the back at the stage 1:45:27.240 --> 1:45:29.280 of the floor when she was young. And you're right, 1:45:30.040 --> 1:45:33.519 or I said you that note. The rest is history, 1:45:34.000 --> 1:45:47.559 as they say. 1:45:42.560 --> 1:45:46.560 Okay, a lot of the book focuses on drugs and alcohol. 1:45:47.960 --> 1:45:51.280 People don't see you that way. That's kind of a revelation. 1:45:52.880 --> 1:45:56.320 So what was that all about drinking and drugging? 1:45:57.479 --> 1:45:59.280 Well, I think it was about what it's about for 1:45:59.360 --> 1:46:02.080 most people who suffer from addiction. Uh. I mean, there's 1:46:02.160 --> 1:46:05.200 nuns and priests and doctors and lawyers who suffer from 1:46:05.200 --> 1:46:08.840 addiction who you probably wouldn't necessarily until it gets so 1:46:08.960 --> 1:46:14.600 bad that you know it's obvious. But the great obsession 1:46:14.640 --> 1:46:19.000 of every person who drinks is too to drink and 1:46:19.080 --> 1:46:21.840 use like other people, you know, normal people, you know, 1:46:22.439 --> 1:46:26.719 so you you devise all these incredible schemes and ways 1:46:26.840 --> 1:46:30.360 to uh hyde the tactic that's not really what's going on? 1:46:31.160 --> 1:46:38.640 And uh it's uh, it's alone arduous journey, you know, 1:46:38.840 --> 1:46:43.960 into that world of addiction. Uh. And it was a 1:46:43.960 --> 1:46:49.920 battle I certainly lost, you know, and it's surrendering and 1:46:49.960 --> 1:46:53.599 losing ultimately losing to it. I found something much better, 1:46:53.640 --> 1:46:59.040 you know, which was uh, you know, sobriety and uh 1:46:59.280 --> 1:47:04.000 living bile without any of that and uh and maybe 1:47:04.080 --> 1:47:07.559 understanding myself a little bit more as a spiritual being 1:47:07.840 --> 1:47:11.960 as a human. You know that that I entered a 1:47:12.000 --> 1:47:16.599 world where there's not many coincidences. Uh, when I entered 1:47:17.479 --> 1:47:20.320 the world sober, you know, re entered the world sober. 1:47:20.360 --> 1:47:25.519 I I when I'm paying attention, which isn't all that often. 1:47:25.560 --> 1:47:29.040 But when I am paying attention, I noticed that everything 1:47:29.080 --> 1:47:32.360 has a meaning. Things have meaning that I would have 1:47:32.439 --> 1:47:37.120 seen before. You know. Uh, acquaintances are not just acquaintances. 1:47:37.200 --> 1:47:44.160 They hold some uh information Hm that's there to inform 1:47:44.240 --> 1:47:49.040 me in a in a larger way what the hell 1:47:49.040 --> 1:47:51.360 I'm doing there and what life is really all about. 1:47:52.400 --> 1:47:56.120 I'm not much on the religion. I've never been very 1:47:56.120 --> 1:48:01.040 good at that, you know. My take on that is 1:48:01.160 --> 1:48:06.839 that's man's effort to create God in his own image. 1:48:08.080 --> 1:48:10.960 That's why I look about religion, you know, uh, and 1:48:12.040 --> 1:48:15.479 anything that co signs us hating each other is can't 1:48:15.520 --> 1:48:20.920 be that can't be that great anyway. So I I 1:48:21.360 --> 1:48:25.640 think God in my understanding today is some God that 1:48:25.800 --> 1:48:29.720 is I'll never understand, you know. And I'm okay with that. Uh, 1:48:30.120 --> 1:48:38.320 I'm okay with a consciousness being unfathomable ultimately, but that 1:48:38.800 --> 1:48:44.800 it does exist, and it's better for me to plug 1:48:44.840 --> 1:48:47.960 into that and than to be left to my own thinking. 1:48:48.080 --> 1:48:50.360 You know, I don't thinking never did much for me, 1:48:50.560 --> 1:48:54.360 you know. Ah, it was you know, just brought about 1:48:54.360 --> 1:48:58.640 calamity after calamity for me. But ah, when I do 1:48:58.800 --> 1:49:05.280 turn it over to whatever, that higher power does much 1:49:05.280 --> 1:49:09.000 better job of thinking than I do. I do better, 1:49:09.240 --> 1:49:12.679 you know. I I'm more comfortable in my own skin. 1:49:13.000 --> 1:49:15.400 I find that life treats me a lot better, you know. 1:49:18.120 --> 1:49:20.040 And that's the best I can come up with on it. 1:49:20.320 --> 1:49:21.000 On that subthing. 1:49:22.200 --> 1:49:24.920 Okay, to what degree when you look back when you 1:49:24.960 --> 1:49:30.719 got sober, was their carnage, missed opportunities, fuck ups, creating 1:49:30.800 --> 1:49:34.400 bad blood because it didn't look like that from the exterior. 1:49:34.479 --> 1:49:38.040 What was that a factor or was that did that happen? 1:49:38.600 --> 1:49:41.400 Uh? Yeah, yeah, all over the place. You know, I, 1:49:43.479 --> 1:49:47.120 you know, I seem to, for all my best intentions, 1:49:47.280 --> 1:49:51.960 leave a trail of wreckage in every turn. You know 1:49:52.960 --> 1:49:57.200 that I was my life had become some effort to 1:49:57.200 --> 1:50:00.320 stay a step ahead of you know, or h uh 1:50:01.200 --> 1:50:04.439 you know, uh, you know, like like a lot of people, 1:50:04.920 --> 1:50:12.519 you know, I've you know, I found myself doing things 1:50:12.560 --> 1:50:15.280 that I don't you know, I don't want to think 1:50:15.320 --> 1:50:19.160 that I'm that person you know or you know, uh, 1:50:19.880 --> 1:50:22.640 secrets I hope to cake to the grave, you know, uh, 1:50:23.360 --> 1:50:27.280 things that I'm not proud of myself for. You know, 1:50:27.479 --> 1:50:31.320 I had to come to an understanding that probably well 1:50:31.360 --> 1:50:34.920 a lot of people have those things. That's not just me. 1:50:35.120 --> 1:50:38.720 And again that that whole myopic world of oh you 1:50:38.760 --> 1:50:40.640 know this is all about me. It's not about me, 1:50:40.760 --> 1:50:44.880 it's about you know. Uh, maybe I'm not that person 1:50:44.960 --> 1:50:48.479 if I actually have regrets, you know, and obviously I'm 1:50:48.520 --> 1:50:52.800 not that person, you know. Uh uh. You know I've 1:50:52.800 --> 1:50:55.360 tried to make amends where I could, you know, and 1:50:55.720 --> 1:50:58.519 I haven't made all of them, you know, some of 1:50:58.520 --> 1:51:01.920 them I don't know how to make, you know. Uh uh. 1:51:03.280 --> 1:51:06.040 I look for the opportunity to at some point you 1:51:06.080 --> 1:51:11.559 know uh uh and I and I but in the 1:51:11.840 --> 1:51:13.720 in the meantime, I have to own it, you know. 1:51:13.800 --> 1:51:18.160 I have to know that, Yeah, that was me. I 1:51:18.200 --> 1:51:21.040 did that. You know, nobody else did that, you know, 1:51:22.640 --> 1:51:29.479 for whatever whatever missteps got me there, Uh, that was me, 1:51:29.760 --> 1:51:33.760 you know. And uh and I am sorry, you know, 1:51:33.840 --> 1:51:37.680 but I I you know, I have to make the 1:51:38.240 --> 1:51:42.400 conscious amend two be better, you know, to do, to 1:51:42.439 --> 1:51:44.720 do better from my honor, to be to not be 1:51:44.840 --> 1:51:50.360 that person, you know, from this point forward. You know, 1:51:50.439 --> 1:51:53.120 I think everybody has regrets, but that's not for me 1:51:53.200 --> 1:51:55.280 to say one way there, I know, I do, you know, 1:51:55.800 --> 1:52:00.920 but I uh. At the same time, I I believe 1:52:01.000 --> 1:52:05.559 that the most important thing I learned to do after 1:52:08.080 --> 1:52:12.519 in sobriety is forgiven and to learn to love myself, 1:52:12.560 --> 1:52:15.280 you know, so that I could actually have a relationship 1:52:15.280 --> 1:52:18.360 with other people that's meaningful, and that I could actually 1:52:18.360 --> 1:52:21.960 do the next right thing in the most spiritually meaningful way, 1:52:22.120 --> 1:52:25.880 you know, not just because I want to get something 1:52:25.920 --> 1:52:29.920 from you or some reaction from you, but because I 1:52:30.000 --> 1:52:31.800 because in my heart I know it's the right thing 1:52:31.800 --> 1:52:33.800 to do, whether I really want to do it or not, 1:52:34.000 --> 1:52:39.880 you know, And that you know, uh, that's that's all 1:52:39.920 --> 1:52:42.120 the little difficulties of life that we all share. 1:52:44.520 --> 1:52:49.080 Okay, there's one amazing story in the book, and I've 1:52:49.120 --> 1:52:53.480 even told this story to other people where your sponsor 1:52:53.600 --> 1:52:56.760 says that you have to make amends to someone who 1:52:56.880 --> 1:53:00.080 ripped you off. Can you tell that story? 1:53:01.320 --> 1:53:04.479 Well, to make a long story short, yeah, I was. 1:53:04.600 --> 1:53:11.320 It was part of the amends thing. You know, I 1:53:11.360 --> 1:53:22.320 didn't quite understand, you know. Uh, but you know, I 1:53:22.360 --> 1:53:23.880 it was easy for me to understand when I did 1:53:23.920 --> 1:53:25.800 something wrong and I needed to say I was sorry, 1:53:25.960 --> 1:53:30.200 you know, if I could the opportunity came, I could 1:53:30.240 --> 1:53:35.559 do that, you know. But when somebody did something to 1:53:35.640 --> 1:53:40.720 me that I felt righteously indignant about, you know, and 1:53:40.800 --> 1:53:44.640 you know that was complex, you know in terms of 1:53:44.680 --> 1:53:46.960 what my pardon it was, I understood it. Yeah, I 1:53:47.000 --> 1:53:48.800 probably have a part in this, and I need to 1:53:49.080 --> 1:53:51.519 be aware of that. I need to even in some 1:53:51.600 --> 1:53:54.519 cases apologieship. But it's easier ship than done if it's 1:53:54.520 --> 1:53:57.120 a situation like the one I was looking at. And 1:54:00.600 --> 1:54:04.120 you know what I realized in the first seconds of 1:54:04.160 --> 1:54:09.080 the conversation was he was kind of an awkward silence. Guys, like, 1:54:09.680 --> 1:54:13.320 what are we talking about? Exactly, you know, and I realized, 1:54:13.640 --> 1:54:17.840 this guy hasn't lost a minute's sleep over something that 1:54:17.880 --> 1:54:22.639 I've been chewing on for twenty years, you know, and 1:54:23.000 --> 1:54:25.479 drinking the poison hoping that he would die, you know, 1:54:26.120 --> 1:54:31.000 in my brainstorm conversations that they never really had with him. 1:54:31.439 --> 1:54:34.080 I was setting him straight, you know, I'm telling him 1:54:34.080 --> 1:54:38.160 off in any number of ways, each one better than 1:54:38.160 --> 1:54:40.800 the last, you know, taking it from the top over 1:54:40.800 --> 1:54:46.480 and over again in my brain, my little brain. And 1:54:46.520 --> 1:54:49.240 he hadn't even thought about it in the whole twenty 1:54:49.280 --> 1:54:52.680 years or whatever it was between the time that happened, 1:54:53.960 --> 1:54:57.320 and I realized that, you know, also that it probably 1:54:57.320 --> 1:55:00.920 would have never happened had I not. It had my 1:55:00.960 --> 1:55:04.360 fingerprints all over it. You know. I was famous, and 1:55:04.840 --> 1:55:07.040 I let you do something for me that I don't 1:55:07.040 --> 1:55:10.880 feel like I'm capable of doing. And then I love 1:55:10.960 --> 1:55:14.200 to criticize what a shitty job you did, uh you 1:55:14.240 --> 1:55:19.320 know later, you know, but I gave you total responsibility 1:55:19.360 --> 1:55:24.400 for it, you know, and uh you know, uh so 1:55:24.600 --> 1:55:27.520 I you know, it was a lot of the learning 1:55:27.560 --> 1:55:32.120 process about what makes me tick and how I really 1:55:32.320 --> 1:55:35.440 create my own problems, and basically, when it's all a 1:55:35.480 --> 1:55:39.640 sudden done. My biggest problem is me, not him, not 1:55:39.800 --> 1:55:44.120 anybody else, you know, not that person, place, or thing, 1:55:44.200 --> 1:55:47.720 but really how I react to it, what I do 1:55:47.800 --> 1:55:56.000 in the process of experiencing it, you know, And that's 1:55:56.000 --> 1:55:58.920 an ongoing listen. I have to learn over and over 1:55:58.960 --> 1:56:01.720 and over again. You know, I never gonna walk away 1:56:01.720 --> 1:56:04.560 with enough knowledge on that subject you to go, Okay, 1:56:04.560 --> 1:56:08.040 I got this, you know. Uh, I'm always going to 1:56:08.080 --> 1:56:11.240 be learning that lesson, you know, in life. Uh, I'm 1:56:11.240 --> 1:56:14.200 always going to go there first unless I can find 1:56:14.200 --> 1:56:19.760 the wherewithal to stop myself and h give give enough 1:56:19.800 --> 1:56:22.680 thought to what I'm about to do next, or say next, 1:56:22.760 --> 1:56:27.640 or experience next, to maybe turn it over to that 1:56:27.960 --> 1:56:34.040 higher power we're talking about, see what possibly uh mhm, 1:56:34.720 --> 1:56:37.160 God of my understanding, what would rather have me do 1:56:37.360 --> 1:56:39.120 than what I'm about to do? Because if I get 1:56:39.120 --> 1:56:41.880 in the ring with anything myself, I'm needially going to 1:56:41.880 --> 1:56:47.400 get knocked out. That's just h Yeah, my best thinking 1:56:47.480 --> 1:56:51.320 got me on a seat in that hy a meaning 1:56:52.240 --> 1:56:57.440 So I'm not you know, I'm not the best thing 1:56:57.480 --> 1:57:00.600 that ever happened to me. But not uh, nothing that 1:57:01.080 --> 1:57:03.879 really had anything to do with my prowess as a 1:57:03.920 --> 1:57:04.520 great thinker. 1:57:06.720 --> 1:57:09.440 Okay, how did you end up hooking up with the 1:57:09.560 --> 1:57:13.040 Dubies for the fifty at the Anniverse? We tour and 1:57:13.080 --> 1:57:16.840 we know that it's business. If they can continue to 1:57:16.920 --> 1:57:19.960 book dates in big venues, people still want to come. 1:57:20.640 --> 1:57:21.920 Is this an endless tour? 1:57:23.920 --> 1:57:28.879 It seems like at times, you know, we're enjoying ourselves, 1:57:28.880 --> 1:57:30.920 you know, I mean, like I say, ninety percent of 1:57:30.960 --> 1:57:34.800 it for us is is the audience that shows up, 1:57:34.840 --> 1:57:38.360 you know. You know, like I say, all these songs 1:57:38.360 --> 1:57:40.280 as much as we enjoy playing them, and we do, 1:57:40.760 --> 1:57:43.120 but we enjoy playing them for those people that enjoy them. 1:57:43.120 --> 1:57:45.560 You know, we'd probably be sick of them long ago. 1:57:45.720 --> 1:57:48.040 But you know, to take into the streets. I don't 1:57:48.040 --> 1:57:50.120 know how many times I can sing that song, But 1:57:51.080 --> 1:57:53.880 really what it's about in the course of an evening, 1:57:53.920 --> 1:57:57.320 it's when we hit this intro or the song and 1:57:57.360 --> 1:58:04.240 the crowd you know, reacts, you know, positively and with 1:58:04.240 --> 1:58:09.280 with with excitement. Then that's what the song is. And 1:58:09.320 --> 1:58:12.760 that's it's that moment, It's that communion with the audience. 1:58:13.840 --> 1:58:16.440 That what it's all about. It's not the song anymore, 1:58:16.520 --> 1:58:19.760 it's it's just the experience, you know, of playing it 1:58:19.800 --> 1:58:21.720 for people who want to hear it, you know, And 1:58:24.440 --> 1:58:27.840 as long as that's happening, I know there's any limit 1:58:27.920 --> 1:58:30.600 to what how long we would be doing this sort 1:58:30.640 --> 1:58:36.320 of health reasons, you know. But we're having a pretty 1:58:36.360 --> 1:58:40.440 good time of it right now. And like I say, 1:58:40.960 --> 1:58:43.680 we're no one's more amazed than we are that we're 1:58:43.760 --> 1:58:48.440 still on backstage stays that size playing for people in 1:58:48.640 --> 1:58:53.040 the venues. It big. You know, I would have not 1:58:53.240 --> 1:58:57.880 given you any odds on that happening fifty years ago, 1:58:58.000 --> 1:59:03.040 you know, And we were just young enough back then 1:59:03.080 --> 1:59:06.400 to not be thinking too much about what we would 1:59:06.440 --> 1:59:08.040 be doing at this point in our lives. You know, 1:59:09.040 --> 1:59:11.680 we're very lucky to be doing this at this point 1:59:11.680 --> 1:59:15.920 in our lives. Uh, you know, even with the in 1:59:16.000 --> 1:59:19.280 terms of like were some gags with the Eagles and 1:59:19.400 --> 1:59:21.240 all these guys that we knew in the seventies that 1:59:21.280 --> 1:59:23.360 we played with that we made records at the same time, 1:59:24.760 --> 1:59:28.080 Donald and Walter, Uh, you know, I worked with them 1:59:28.520 --> 1:59:32.680 up until Walter's passing, you know, And I see Donald 1:59:32.760 --> 1:59:36.040 talk to Donald, and none of us would have ever 1:59:36.240 --> 1:59:39.720 thought that we'd be taking the stage together in our seventies, 1:59:39.760 --> 1:59:42.440 you know, I just wouldn't have been anything any of 1:59:42.480 --> 1:59:44.960 us would have bet on, you know. But you know, 1:59:44.960 --> 1:59:45.520 here we are. 1:59:47.480 --> 1:59:50.760 So do you have a hankering? A lot of times 1:59:50.760 --> 1:59:53.280 people say I'm doing this, but I have a hankering 1:59:53.360 --> 1:59:56.520 to get back to my solo career. Is that going 1:59:56.560 --> 1:59:58.520 through your brain or are you saying this is good 1:59:58.560 --> 2:00:00.000 as long as this is good, all right? 2:00:00.040 --> 2:00:04.640 I don't really have a hankering to get back to 2:00:04.680 --> 2:00:07.920 my solo career. I had a great band when I 2:00:07.920 --> 2:00:09.720 played with the guys, and I would love to play 2:00:09.720 --> 2:00:12.320 with them again, you know, just because I love those 2:00:12.360 --> 2:00:14.720 guys that I love playing with them and I missed 2:00:14.760 --> 2:00:17.280 playing some of those songs. But it's not like a 2:00:17.280 --> 2:00:20.520 hankering to do to be a solo artist again. You know. 2:00:21.000 --> 2:00:24.040 I really very much enjoy being a Dobie brother. I 2:00:24.040 --> 2:00:27.960 always did, you know, and it's enough for me, you know. 2:00:29.760 --> 2:00:31.880 But you know, when there are moments when I do 2:00:32.000 --> 2:00:35.240 go out, I for one off, I just did a 2:00:35.240 --> 2:00:40.839 cruise and it was great, wonderful cruise with Patty LaBelle 2:00:40.880 --> 2:00:46.360 and Marcus Miller band and a great group of musicians. 2:00:46.880 --> 2:00:49.360 And I was doing a lot of the material that 2:00:49.440 --> 2:00:52.560 I did with my solo band and it was wonderful 2:00:52.600 --> 2:00:56.920 to do those songs again. But again, for some reason, 2:00:58.400 --> 2:01:05.520 I'm fulfilled overall sense of fulfillment, uh, just being back 2:01:05.560 --> 2:01:07.720 with the Doobies, you know, and playing with Tom and 2:01:07.760 --> 2:01:12.200 Patt and John McFee and all the guys in the band, Mark, 2:01:12.920 --> 2:01:18.520 John Ed and Mark and uh, you know, I feel 2:01:19.320 --> 2:01:23.440 extremely lucky to be on stage with these guys, musicians 2:01:23.440 --> 2:01:26.160 of this caliber and people of this character. You know. 2:01:27.160 --> 2:01:29.800 There's just nothing better than that than hitting the road. 2:01:29.840 --> 2:01:33.680 And you know, the only thing when you complain about 2:01:33.800 --> 2:01:36.040 is that we wish we were playing more. You know, 2:01:37.240 --> 2:01:40.160 we have a pretty much easier schedule than the old days. 2:01:40.160 --> 2:01:43.200 We don't play you know, four nights in a row anymore, 2:01:43.240 --> 2:01:45.680 you know, And there was something about that that I 2:01:45.760 --> 2:01:51.920 really liked. There was some kind of a you know, 2:01:52.800 --> 2:01:56.800 it lent itself to the development, you know as a band. 2:01:56.960 --> 2:02:00.320 You know, when we played every night, you know, we 2:02:00.360 --> 2:02:03.160 would actually listen to our show the night before on 2:02:03.200 --> 2:02:06.680 the on the plane the next day because we were 2:02:06.720 --> 2:02:09.320 interested in just to hear how we were doing at 2:02:09.320 --> 2:02:12.480 this point, you know. And uh, you know, I think 2:02:12.520 --> 2:02:14.680 I think we all miss that a little bit. We 2:02:14.760 --> 2:02:19.280 missed that, you know, getting out there playing six five 2:02:19.360 --> 2:02:24.360 or six in a row because you your whole take on, 2:02:24.360 --> 2:02:27.760 on your perspective on what you do develops with that. 2:02:27.880 --> 2:02:32.200 You know. And and now we're at that age where 2:02:32.240 --> 2:02:34.720 if we take a week off, we've all pretty much 2:02:34.720 --> 2:02:38.360 forgotten the song altogether. And you know, we're all at 2:02:38.360 --> 2:02:41.040 home woodshed and trying to remember the chords. And you know, 2:02:41.680 --> 2:02:43.880 uh that I you know, I don't have quite the 2:02:43.920 --> 2:02:48.200 memory I used to have, so uh, it's it's nice 2:02:48.240 --> 2:02:51.160 to get back together and rehearse, and you know, I 2:02:51.240 --> 2:02:54.120 have a reason to again. It said, if I have 2:02:54.160 --> 2:02:57.200 a reason to play music, that's what it takes for me. 2:02:57.280 --> 2:02:59.760 I don't do so well in my idle time. 2:03:02.280 --> 2:03:04.920 Okay, Michael, I want to thank you so much for 2:03:04.960 --> 2:03:07.720 sharing your inner life and thoughts with my audience. 2:03:07.920 --> 2:03:09.840 Oh, thank yous appreciate it so much. 2:03:10.880 --> 2:03:14.360 But I will say this, if you're interested in any 2:03:14.440 --> 2:03:17.360 of this at all, the book really goes into depth. 2:03:18.080 --> 2:03:21.040 You know, it starts off with Saint Louis and it 2:03:21.080 --> 2:03:24.960 goes through every step. You know, the dark days in Hollywood, 2:03:25.120 --> 2:03:28.640 the family stuff, the drug stuff. Really get to know 2:03:28.680 --> 2:03:32.520 who Michael is. And you've learned some in this podcast, 2:03:32.600 --> 2:03:36.920 but there's so much more. In any event, Thank you Michael. 2:03:37.320 --> 2:03:39.880 Until next time, This is Bob Left, SATs 2:04:00.280 --> 2:04:00.480 Six