1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Set podcast. 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: My guest today is Michael McDonald, who has a new autobiography, 3 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: What a Fool Believes. Michael, you reveal so much truth 4 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: in the book, an he regrets. 5 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 2: No, I mean not yet anyway. It's funny, you know, 6 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 2: every time someone says that to me, I kind of 7 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 2: crange a little bit, thinking, well, what did I say? 8 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 2: Because I didn't think I was all that revealing. Most 9 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 2: people who knew me at all, you know, probably had 10 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: some idea that I was a little left of center 11 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 2: for a while there, you know, But I felt like 12 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: if I was going to tell my story, I needed 13 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 2: to be as honest as I could about you know, 14 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 2: addiction and things like that that I probably would have 15 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 2: not talked about I've had. I been doing just an 16 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 2: op ed about my experience as a musician, but this 17 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: being a personal memoir, it seemed like it was it 18 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: kind of was incumbent on me to say something about 19 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 2: my personal life that would be would cast a little 20 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 2: bit of a different light on all of it. 21 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: Well, definitely cast a different light. You're always the guy 22 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: who's very dignified. A lot of people have no idea 23 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: including myself. Now, you know, there's been a lot of publicity, 24 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: but let's go through it. 25 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 2: Anyway. 26 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: You wrote the book with Paul Rise or exactly how 27 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: is it inspired? 28 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 2: Well, I would have to give Paul most of the 29 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: credit for that. We've known each other about twenty years, 30 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 2: and you know, Paul is by nature, he's one of 31 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: those guys that, uh, he's you know, he's a writer himself. Uh, 32 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 2: he's hearing screenplays, books, uh, you name it. Uh uh 33 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 2: developed TV shows, movies and characters in movies. So his 34 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: interest in people in general is the very nat comes 35 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 2: very natural. You know, he's he's one of those guys 36 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: that's likely to kind of know what makes you tick, 37 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: just out of his own curiosity. And so as friends, 38 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: we we you know, he was always Uh. We met 39 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 2: at a party years ago and wound up back at 40 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: his house playing music in his studio till we ours 41 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 2: and uh we found out that we both really loved 42 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 2: the Beatles and uh in Botown and all the stuff 43 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 2: that we we had grown up listening to. Uh and 44 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: uh he kind of came to it. Our conversations were 45 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 2: kind of steered towards, oh, you know, things like got 46 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: the Beatles bridges on their songs, you know, from this 47 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 2: album to that album that had the greatest bridges and 48 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 2: all their songs. We started kind of replaying those memories 49 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 2: of you know, those songs and what great bridges they had, 50 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 2: stuff like that, you know, kind of musing uh uh conversation. 51 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: And and from that point we we we were friends. 52 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 2: And he would always come here us play when I 53 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: was when we played in town, and I actually came 54 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 2: up and played with us on stage. Paul's a great, 55 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,679 Speaker 2: very accomplished piano player, and uh he said, I dare say, 56 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: much better pianel player than I. But we uh so 57 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 2: we we always we had that in common, music in 58 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: common from the get go, and uh, you know, but 59 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: his interest in a lot of what what went on 60 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: with Steely Dan and groups like that were as interesting 61 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 2: to him as say, our conversations were about the Beatles 62 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: and stuff. Can't we any any inside stuff we could? Uh? 63 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 2: We heard or said. We would always share, you know, 64 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: about the bands we liked. But he was always very 65 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: interested in stealing Dan, Donald and Walter and the Dubies, 66 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: Pat and Tommy and all. How all that happened, and 67 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: seemingly at the same time. At one point he said 68 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 2: to me, you know, you should write a book so 69 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 2: I can stop pestoring you with all these questions. And 70 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 2: I said, well, you know, I thought about it, but 71 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: I'm not sure how I would even do that. I've 72 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: written a little bit of you know, op ads for 73 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 2: magazine and stuff, or short stories, but I you know, 74 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 2: I don't think I could take on a book and 75 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 2: really know what I was doing. He goes, well, I've 76 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: written a few, so let me help you, you know, 77 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 2: if you're up for it. So I thought, well, how 78 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: lucky am I in this moment to have Paul Riser 79 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 2: of all people, offer to help me write this book. 80 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 2: And that alone made me think, well I should do it. 81 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 2: You know, whether I was apprehensive about it or not, 82 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you. I kind of was, you know, 83 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: because immediately you start to think about on your life 84 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 2: and you go, well, how would I talk about this, 85 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: or how would I talk about that? Or who would 86 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 2: I talk about? Who would I you know, uh, you know, 87 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: how would I be careful not to throw anyone under 88 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: the bus for any reason? However inadvertently, you know, because 89 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: it's you know, you always have to be careful when 90 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 2: you're telling your story, you know, because it involves other people, 91 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 2: and you want to be cognizant and you know, sure 92 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 2: not to throw anybody under the bus, like I say, 93 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: even if you don't mean to, you know. So there 94 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 2: was a lot of fact checking, and there was a 95 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: lot of stuff that Paul was unbelievably helpful with and 96 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 2: not to to say not the least which almost in 97 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 2: every aspect of writing the book, we kind of edited 98 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: as we went, you know, and he was uncanny with 99 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 2: his ability to like, you know, well, hey, you know 100 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 2: this should go This shouldn't come here, this should come 101 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 2: later in the book. And I don't even know how 102 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: he knew that, because there wasn't a letter in the 103 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 2: book yet. We haven't even written it, you know, but 104 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 2: he just somehow knew instinctually that don't give this away 105 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: too soon, you know, this might be more valuable later, 106 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: and uh, and things like you know, I would write 107 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: for a couple of days, you know, and come back 108 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 2: to him with this, you know, a couple of the 109 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 2: pages worth of stuff, and he would boil that down, 110 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 2: uh to like here, well here's where you're I think 111 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: your story really is a lot of this other stuff 112 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 2: nobody cares, you know, but uh, this this year is something, 113 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 2: you know, and uh, develop us and develop that, do 114 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: you know, Try to develop that and try to focus 115 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: on that, and then we'll get back together. And of 116 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 2: course I would, you know, the first couple of times, 117 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: I would like, Oh, yeah, you're just you're trashing my 118 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: whole story here. You know. I worked for hours on this, 119 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 2: you know, and uh, but every time I read it 120 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 2: the second time, what he had suggested that I get 121 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: rid of, you know, or or however he suggested to 122 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 2: edit it, uh, a lot of cut, cutting and pasting, 123 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 2: you know. The second time I read it, I would 124 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 2: be totally in agreement with what he was suggesting, you know. 125 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: And so I learned to not even question him after 126 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: a while. I would just hand him stuff and we 127 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 2: would look at it together, and pretty much he would 128 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 2: zero in on what needed to be done with it, 129 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: you know. So I have to give him a lot 130 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 2: of credit in the writing of this book. First of all, 131 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have ever gotten done without his work ethic, 132 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: you know. I mean, I'd still be wondering about the 133 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: preface at this point, you know. But it was really 134 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: helpful all the way down the line even reading the 135 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: audio or the audiobook having him there, you know, he 136 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: was he was on hand with me and kind of 137 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: directed me through it and really kind of reminded me 138 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: in most cases. And I'm not even sure I still 139 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 2: did a very good job of it. But you know 140 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 2: how how I said it when I told him the 141 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: story or when we talked about it, you know, because 142 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: I was tended to start reading things like Frankenstein, you know, 143 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: like and then I, well, yeah, and then we went here, 144 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: you know, and you know he would go, you know, 145 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 2: when you said that the first time, it was kind 146 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 2: of like this, you know, kind of offhanded, and so 147 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: I was able to kind of recapture some of the 148 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: spirit of how we had first talked about all this, 149 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: uh what became text in the book. You know, I 150 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 2: honestly don't know how I would have gotten through this 151 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: experience without him, And the audio book almost killed me. 152 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: You know. It was like, you know, eight days of 153 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 2: six hour days of reading, uh these things that all 154 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 2: of a sudden seemed like a tongue twisting contest. You know, 155 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: it was you know, you never know how goofy some 156 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 2: of your you're paraphrasing or writing of anything, is until 157 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 2: you have to go read it. You know. 158 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: So, what are a couple of your favorite Beatles songs 159 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: with bridges? 160 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 2: Uh? Why? So many? Uh? No reply is one of 161 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 2: those great bridges, you know. While you know, if I 162 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 2: were you, I'd realize that I will to be a fool, 163 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 2: and you gave me no reply. You know. They just 164 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: had such a great sense of chord progression and relative 165 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: key knowledge, you know that I think was very natural 166 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: for them, just being guitar players. They I don't think 167 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 2: they really were steeped in music theory, but they you know, 168 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 2: they they had played enough club gigs, Like I always 169 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: tell my son, you know, playing those club gigs is 170 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: where you learn everything you need to know about pop music, 171 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 2: you know. Uh. And but it seemed like Beatles six 172 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 2: uh revolver all the way through those records, all the 173 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: way up to the Revolver and on from there. One 174 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 2: thing the Beatles always did well was write a great 175 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: bridge to their song. 176 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: You know, it seems so obvious. How come no one 177 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: else can do that? No one else sees that magic 178 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: in a record. 179 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: You know, It's a funny thing. I don't know that 180 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 2: any of us see the magic when we're when it's happening. 181 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: You know, I'm sure the same for the Beatles. You know, 182 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: I think. 183 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 3: You you're just kind of when you're making a record, 184 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 3: you're more or less just kind of have your head 185 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 3: down swing and trying to come up with something that that, 186 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 3: uh you think we'll capture the listeners imagination, you know, 187 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 3: and uh, I know with the Doobies for a long time, 188 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 3: for us, it was, you know, we wanted to kind 189 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 3: of incorporate uh. 190 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 2: Key feelings in our songs that you know, we thought 191 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 2: we you know, would lift the listeners you know, emotion, 192 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 2: you know, or or uh and and a lot of 193 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: that came from listening to early the early stuff, you know, uh, 194 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 2: some of the great R and B songs, uh, you 195 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: know from Motown and the Beatles stuff for sure, you know, 196 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 2: and uh and then you know, I think we all 197 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: learned a great appreciation of uh American music from the 198 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 2: British bands because they really fed it back to us. 199 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 2: Most of us missed so much great American music because 200 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: the radio stations weren't playing it on mainstream radio when 201 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 2: we were kids. You know, we heard these English bands 202 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 2: playing Muddy Waters and Howland Wolf and you know, Willie 203 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 2: Dixon songs and we were just like, what is this stuff? 204 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: It's so great, you know, and it was it was 205 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 2: part of our own culture and we weren't aware of it. 206 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: How'd you first hear the Beatles? 207 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 2: I remember hearing about them when I was in sixth grade. 208 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 2: One of the eighth graders came to school with his 209 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,319 Speaker 2: hair combed down, and the nuns kicked him out of school, 210 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: sent him home, and it was a big, you know, 211 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 2: old gossip. It was about which Brandon showing up with 212 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: his hair combed down in his face and pink sent home. 213 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 2: And then you know, that's the first I ever heard 214 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: about the Beatles, And wasn't shortly after that or I 215 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 2: want to hold your hand, you know. Uh. And you 216 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: know it was kind of a bit of sophistication and 217 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: pop records that we didn't hear. I think some of 218 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 2: our pop records prior to that had a certain sophistication, 219 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 2: you know. Uh. I always my ear was drawn too 220 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 2: early on uh kind of pop R and B stuff. 221 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 2: For that reason. I remember hearing stop Her on Site 222 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 2: by uh Uh Edwin starred and uh, it's just something 223 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 2: about the arrangement. It was just so much hipper than 224 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: a lot of uh pop records were you know that 225 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 2: that followed a certain formula of simplicity. You know, Uh, 226 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 2: some of these records it's it was like they let 227 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 2: themselves go or something, you know, and uh, what they 228 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: what they did was they kind of gave credit to 229 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 2: the listener for being able to appreciate what they were doing. 230 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 2: You know. Uh, writers like Burt Backrack and the Beatles, 231 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 2: you know, they kind of went ahead and uh, you know, 232 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 2: followed their own muse and the audience was quick to respond. 233 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: You know, there's so many songs by Burt Backrack and 234 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 2: Hal David and that. You know, if you asked the 235 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 2: typical in our person at the time, well it's a 236 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 2: little Yeah, you can't put a six four bar in 237 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 2: the middle of the pop song. People are gonna fall 238 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: up the chair, you know. But that's not true. Because 239 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 2: if you make it sound natural and it's and you 240 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 2: make it, you do it just because it's a beautiful 241 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 2: thing to do in that moment, people will get that, 242 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 2: you know, and they'll they and proof is in the pudding. 243 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 2: They love those songs to this day. 244 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:51,599 Speaker 1: You know, you're from the same generation. I am a 245 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: lot of us listen to the baseball games on our transistor. 246 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: Then we shifted to music, and then the Beatles hit 247 00:13:58,520 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: What was your Experience? 248 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 2: I used to listen. We had those little Japanese transistoradd 249 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: it was forgot him for Christmas. And what an amazing, 250 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 2: you know, cultural shift that was for all of his 251 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 2: kids walking down the street with these things pressed against 252 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 2: our ears. And I used to go to bed on 253 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: Sunday night with mine, sneaking into my bedroom and put 254 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 2: it under my pillow, and when my mother left the room, 255 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: you know, and you know, it was trying to get 256 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: us to go to sleep, you know, in time for 257 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: school on Monday. I would I could pick up stations, 258 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 2: uh late at night on Sunday night that you couldn't 259 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 2: normally pick up during the day. The airways were all 260 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: to crowded their gains or something. But it was a 261 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 2: station out of Nashville, Tennessee, and it was a gospel 262 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 2: music station. And the DJ was a guy who apparently 263 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 2: where I got this correct, he went around the mat 264 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: Nashville metro area to all the churches and he would 265 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 2: record choirs on you know, fairly sophisticated portable tape player 266 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: at the time, and at the end of his day 267 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 2: that afternoon, prior to his airtime, he would edit these 268 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 2: tapes and he would pick the best performances from the 269 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 2: what he thought was the best choir performances of that 270 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: Sunday from the different churches, and that would be his 271 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 2: program that evening, and he would just with very little talk, 272 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 2: he would just segue from one performance into the next. 273 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 2: End each one was more passionate and more exciting and 274 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 2: you know, powerful than the last one. And I remember 275 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 2: the kid thinking even back then that you know, gospel 276 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 2: music is really so much more passionate than rock and roll. 277 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: I mean, rock and roll is great, and I love 278 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 2: rock and roll like anybody else, but it's kind of 279 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: ways to go to catch up with gospel music as 280 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 2: far as just pure power and uh and emotion, you know, 281 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: especially in the performance and live performances. You know, Uh, 282 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 2: the gospel performances have you know, historically, uh, the gospel performers, 283 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 2: I should say historically have been you know, unbelievable uh artists, 284 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: you know, with the prowess beyond you know, superhuman prowess. 285 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 2: To me, you know, uh, to this day, when I 286 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: listen to what's popular now is a lot of these 287 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: YouTube you know, excerpts of gospel piano players, and it's 288 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 2: just you want to just throw in the towel and 289 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 2: you know, pick up another profession after you hear these guys, 290 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: and some of them are like in their teens, you know, 291 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 2: and they're just already that great, you know. So it's 292 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 2: always been, uh something a bar, a musical bar for 293 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 2: me is what goes on in gospel music, something that 294 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 2: I've never felt, you know, I've been a part of, 295 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 2: but I sure enjoy listening to it, and I use 296 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 2: it as an inspiration to, you know, maybe trying to 297 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 2: learn something in my old an shaw. 298 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: So in the summer of sixty nine, when the Edmund 299 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 1: Hawkins singers have Oh Happy Day, are you pissed? Because 300 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: it's taking room from the Beatles and other things where 301 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: you say, oh, this is great, this is just in 302 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 1: my wheelhouse. 303 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 2: No no, I love that track, and it kind of 304 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 2: brought to the airwaves what had always been there, but 305 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: it had been disguised as pop R and B. And 306 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 2: you know, all of our rhythm blues music is the 307 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 2: director of the American gospel music, you know, and by 308 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 2: that I mean African American gospel music, because that really 309 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 2: is the true well, you know, there's a Southern gospel 310 00:17:55,520 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 2: and all that, and rock and roll has also mirror that. 311 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 2: You know from the beginning. You know, all the different 312 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: forms of pop music in this country that are truly 313 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 2: American I think come from gospel roots. You know. It's 314 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: the music that people found here, that they further developed here, 315 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: that they found comfort in living their day to day lives. 316 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 2: That's what got them through, you know, and then it 317 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: evolved into more secular music that they enjoyed, you know, 318 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 2: in their living rooms and outside of church. You know. 319 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 2: But you know, all the early R and B performers, 320 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 2: I think most of them grew up in church and 321 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 2: learned to just sing and play. Probably most of them 322 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 2: in church. 323 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: Okay, So the Beatles break on the radio in January 324 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: sixty four, thron ed Sullivan three times in February. In 325 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: my world, we were all playing eylon string guitars folk, 326 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: and then as soon as Beetles hit, everybody got an 327 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: electric guitar and everybody started forming bands. What was your experience. 328 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 2: Much the same? I think. I think every uh, you know, 329 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: if you didn't just play sports, you know, every other 330 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 2: American male had a garage bad you know, and dreams 331 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 2: of making a hit record and uh, you know, being 332 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 2: being like the Beatles. You know, that was our template 333 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 2: for uh, you know, social status, you know. Uh, and 334 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: we were no different, you know. We We started out 335 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 2: and one of drummer's basement, you know, and uh, you know, 336 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 2: we were probably as terrible as every garage band starts 337 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 2: out as and uh, but we you know, developed it 338 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 2: a little further, found some new equipment along the way, 339 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 2: and we're able to actually play a few gigs and 340 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 2: the rest of for the most part, most of us 341 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: made a life out of playing music. With all the 342 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 2: guys I played with when I was twelve thirteen years 343 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 2: old are still playing music to this day. 344 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: And that's their primary way of putting food on the table, 345 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: so to speak. 346 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 2: Yes and no. I mean, I think there's not any 347 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 2: of us that haven't worked outside of the music business 348 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 2: just to you know, like you say, put food on 349 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 2: the table. But I pretty much stayed within the bounds 350 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: of working because I was single, you know, for the 351 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 2: longest part of my life till I met my wife. 352 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 2: I didn't really have a lot of responsibility, and I 353 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: took that to a whole new level, you know, when 354 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 2: I was a musician, just you know, to keep my 355 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: attention and focused in one area. You know, I pity 356 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 2: the woman who would have ever been hooked up with 357 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 2: me during those periods, because I you know, I lived 358 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 2: very hand of miles for a while there in a while, 359 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 2: get a lot of CouchSurfing as a musician in La Okay. 360 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: In my world, everybody formed a garage band. The story 361 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: I tell as I was playing guitars with my good friend. 362 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: He says, now we're going to change keys, and I 363 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: said to myself, I'm out, there's no future here. When 364 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: did you know this was your thing and you were 365 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: going to write it to the end. 366 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 2: You know, there was a lot of complexity with that 367 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 2: for me. You know, I think just somewhere in there, 368 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 2: I thought, you know, if I have anything to offer, 369 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 2: it's somewhere in this realm, and anything else would be 370 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 2: starting over for me. And I didn't really have a 371 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: lot of confidence on myself as far as you know. 372 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 2: I remember one time in park I think I talked 373 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 2: about this in a poko in front of the bank 374 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 2: and I was eating Ah. You know, I'd taken my 375 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 2: life to a whole new economic bottom, you know, at 376 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 2: that point, you know, and uh, just watching this guy 377 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,479 Speaker 2: in a three piece suit stand there smoking cigarette and 378 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 2: I kind of just assumed he was on a break. 379 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 2: He was a bank executive, and I'm thinking, God, what 380 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 2: must it. What's it like to be him? You know, 381 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 2: to have all these people's money that you're responsible for 382 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 2: and this job of great responsibility. And I wouldn't last 383 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 2: a day in that environment, you know. Uh, you know, 384 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 2: I could barely you know, uh get it together to 385 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 2: get my piano to the shop and pick some keys 386 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 2: and you know, uh this ding dong and Dr Pepper. 387 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 2: It's going to be my one meal for the day, 388 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 2: you know. But I, uh, you know, it was just 389 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 2: a period of my life. I was young, and we're 390 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 2: all we all went there. I think, I, I uh, 391 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 2: I stretched that period out a little more than most people, 392 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 2: but I think that we all know what that's like 393 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 2: to be that age and you know, kind of irresponsible, 394 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 2: you know, in terms of what the world sees as responsibility, 395 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 2: you know. I to this day, I marveled a lot 396 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 2: of my friends who tell me about their kids and 397 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 2: what their kids are going, and you know, and I go, well, 398 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 2: I was at that age, I was just looking for 399 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,640 Speaker 2: another club gig. You know, I wasn't really I wasn't 400 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 2: even really that concern with what lie beyond that. You know. 401 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 2: It was just can I borrow an amp in time 402 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 2: to do this gig? You know? And then you know, 403 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 2: I gotta be careful with this cord because I don't, 404 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 2: you know, get it just right. It's going to crackle 405 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 2: when I play. You know. I was in that world, 406 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 2: you know, but you know I wouldn't trade it. I 407 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 2: enjoyed it. I think it was a lot of it 408 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: for me was I was avoiding growing up. You know, 409 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 2: I was somehow locked in a time frame in my 410 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 2: own emotional state, you know, emotional maturity, and I just 411 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 2: didn't think I was cut out to go and learn 412 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 2: to be a teacher or a lawyer or any kind 413 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 2: of other professional music was it? Or it was all 414 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 2: or nothing for me with music, And I thought, you know, 415 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 2: at least I have a shot at this bringing something 416 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 2: to it. 417 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: You know, Well, you talk in the book your father 418 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: was a saloon singer, literally, and your parents got divorced, 419 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: you know, your school career ends. Was there anybody saying 420 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: Michael or Mike as you refer to, you know, maybe 421 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: you're going down the wrong path. You need to buckle down. Well, 422 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: you've always kind of on your own. 423 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 2: Well, it's funny, you know, of the two parents I had, 424 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: my mother was more like, you know, hey, go for it, 425 00:24:55,160 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 2: do you know, do do your best, you know, and 426 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 2: be you know, you know. Uh. And my dad was too, 427 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 2: because you know, his interest in music and everything. But 428 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 2: I think he was more wary about the fact that 429 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 2: I might find myself out on limb in life and 430 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: uh and then with no real uh you know, plan 431 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: b you know, for how to you know, go into adulthood, 432 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 2: you know, with some semblance of uh, you know, dignity. 433 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 2: But you know, uh, so he would always do kind of, yeah, 434 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: you should kind of look into these junior college courses 435 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 2: and you know, uh, get that ged while you're at it, 436 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: you know, and then go to junior college and just 437 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 2: kind of pave away for yourself beyond this, you know. 438 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 2: And uh, eventually I did that. I I went and 439 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: took the test that you know, you know, literally anyone 440 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 2: could pass, you know, uh, but uh, I I never 441 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 2: you know, I never took seriously any college courses or 442 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 2: any other profession besides just playing music, and I think 443 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 2: that was where my passion was, was just the chance 444 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 2: to play music again. It didn't matter where or under 445 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 2: what circumstances. I was one of those guys that when 446 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 2: I was playing in a crappy bar somewhere with two people, 447 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 2: you know, at the sitting at the bar and no 448 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 2: one else in the room. You know, I could close 449 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 2: my eyes and imagine I was at Madison Square Garden, 450 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: you know, playing singing the song I was about to play, 451 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 2: you know, h It didn't matter that I wasn't. In 452 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 2: my mind, I could go there, you know. And I 453 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 2: think I used to do that a lot, just you know, 454 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 2: if I was singing this song for uh, the biggest 455 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 2: audience in the world, how would I do it? How 456 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 2: would I sing it? You know? To me, it was 457 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 2: always about the song and about the moment and about 458 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: the chance to perform it. Uh, didn't didn't really matter where. 459 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: You know, it is nearly impossible to make it. You 460 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: focus on luck in the book, but you must have 461 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: had a lot of drive. 462 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, I did. I think looking back, not in the 463 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 2: areas I should have. I think, you know, I think 464 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 2: one of the things that I was always a terrible student, 465 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 2: you know. I you know, I've never got to practice much. 466 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 2: I I to this day. I have a real issue 467 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 2: with it. I'm not sure what it is. I try 468 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 2: to practice, and I try to you know, I try 469 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 2: to force myself, but I find that I drift off, 470 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 2: you know, almost immediately into some other place that isn't 471 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 2: really very much fruit, you know, in terms of what 472 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 2: you hope to get from practicing. And you know, for me, 473 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 2: I learned to play better when I play gigs, you know, 474 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: when I when I'm playing a lot, when I'm in 475 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 2: a dance situation and there's a reason for me to advance, 476 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 2: uh you know, my just my keyboard part or something, 477 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 2: or teach myself to do something I haven't done here 478 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 2: for you know. But when I'm on my own time 479 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 2: and I'm at home and I'm gonna I'm going to 480 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 2: go through all these piano tutorials I've downloaded on my phone, 481 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 2: and I'm going to slowly practice these things. I'm good 482 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 2: for about five maybe maybe one minute, you know, and 483 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 2: and my brain just you know, dislodges, you know, and 484 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 2: I I find it's really difficult for me to do that, 485 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 2: to rudimentarily do anything, you know, I I I got 486 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 2: to be immersed in it for me to actually put 487 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 2: it together and actually advance a little further with whatever 488 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 2: it is I'm doing. You know, I play a little 489 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 2: mandolin with the band. I can't play the mandolin. I couldn't, 490 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,479 Speaker 2: you know. I know a couple of songs. But and 491 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 2: from the first time I ever picked up a banjo 492 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 2: when I was a kid, I learned just enough to 493 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 2: do what I had to do in the next song 494 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 2: I was gonna play. But uh as far as sitting 495 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 2: there and practicing the banjo until I got pretty good 496 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 2: at playing the banjo, I was never capable of doing that. 497 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: I don't know what that is, an intention deficit. Uh. 498 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 2: You know, they got names for all this stuff now 499 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: that they didn't have when I was a kid, But 500 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 2: I think I suffered from a lot of them. And 501 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 2: uh so for me, you know, it was like to 502 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 2: throw me in the middle of it. And if it's 503 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 2: something I enjoy overall, uh, I'll learn what I got 504 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: to learn to do the job I got to do, 505 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: you know. And music was that way for me. You know, 506 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 2: I wished I had been a better stud music, you know, 507 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 2: ad a better instrumentalist in all the different respects. You know. 508 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 2: I'm a you know, a guy plays a little bit 509 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: of some things. Nothing well, you know, and uh, but 510 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: I you know, I would put it together in some 511 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 2: form or fashion to write a song or to play 512 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 2: this next song with a band. You know, I would 513 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 2: come up with some kind of keyboard part that I 514 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 2: thought worked. And you know, and I'm I'm I'm changing 515 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 2: my parts. Uh. We've been out for three years dubies 516 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: and up or our third year of the fiftieth anniversary tour. Uh, 517 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 2: I'm still changing my keyboard parts. You know. It's just 518 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,239 Speaker 2: you know, I'm a slow learner and I'm slow to 519 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 2: develop those things. But if you give me the chance, uh, 520 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: and I have enough time, I can catch up, you 521 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 2: know pretty well, you know, But uh, that's kind of 522 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 2: my m o. You know. That's Uh. I've ever been 523 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 2: one of those guys that can sit down and rip 524 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 2: off something in every key you know. I wish I was, 525 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 2: but I'm not. I don't think I ever will be. 526 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: But to sage, you know, one of the big turning 527 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: points in the book is you put together a band 528 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: for a studio Christmas party. You meet Jeff Percaro and 529 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: he calls you two years later to be in Steely Dan, 530 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: tell me about the conversation in the interaction with Jeff 531 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: Percaro at that Christmas party. 532 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:45,479 Speaker 2: Well, that's an interesting question, really, because, uh, your your 533 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 2: last question is, you know, you seem to have I 534 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 2: had a lot of perseverance in the music business, you know. 535 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 2: I was one of these I was always no matter 536 00:31:54,840 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 2: what didn't happen or didn't or whatever imploded or you know, uh, 537 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 2: I always thought, well, there's an opportunity here somewhere, I 538 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 2: just have to you know, there'll be another shot at this, 539 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 2: you know. And though this usually was the last thing 540 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 2: you expected, and this was one of those things where 541 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 2: I you know, it was just a gig that I 542 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 2: had been kind of left in my lap, and I 543 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: failed miserably at delegating and preparing for this thing. And 544 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 2: I promised this person I would, you know, I wouldn't procrastinate, 545 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 2: and I would make sure all this stuff was in 546 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 2: place so that we could do this gig. And of 547 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 2: course I didn't. And it was a week out and 548 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 2: this is nothing but disaster looming, you know. And a 549 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 2: friend of mine said he knew some guys who might 550 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 2: be able to help us out and play. And you know, 551 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 2: they were kind of like the young uh you know, 552 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: a list guys in town and his brother worked with him. 553 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 2: They probably would just doing this gig for fun, you know, 554 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 2: and I wouldn't need to rehearse, you know much, just 555 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 2: write up some chord charts for them. They do sessions 556 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 2: every day. They know how to improvise them, you know, 557 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 2: just some songs that we all remotely know or I 558 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 2: have heard before, everybody will be able to pull it off. 559 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 2: And so that's what we did. And I met Jeff 560 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: Percaro on the gig. Mike Paccaro, his brother played bass. 561 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 2: H David Page came down just to kind of check 562 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 2: it out, and he sat in on a couple of things, 563 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 2: and we had a guitar player friend of mine. I 564 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 2: can't and uh we uh, we got through the night, 565 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 2: you know. But what what I remember mostly was them 566 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 2: talking about doing the Steely Dan album they were recording 567 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 2: at the time, and that was my favorite band at 568 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 2: that moment. You know. I just love those guys. I 569 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 2: love them what they did, and uh, you know, probably 570 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 2: the band I like the most since the Beatles, you know, 571 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 2: and uh and I thought, Wow, how lucky you know 572 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 2: to be this guy's you know, playing with these guys 573 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 2: every day. And I had done a gig prior to 574 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 2: that club gig a disco in the South Bay area 575 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 2: and a good friend of mine, Bobby for he was 576 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 2: a drummer friend of mine, Bobby frederoa uh and we 577 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 2: played together in some bands, and Bobby was a great 578 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 2: singer and great player, played with the Righteous Brothers and 579 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 2: each Boys for years. But he was auditioning for Stewie 580 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 2: Dan and he was talking about going to this audition, 581 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 2: and this is the second time I heard about somebody 582 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 2: having something to do with Stewe Dan. I thought, God, 583 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: how do you get on that train? You know, these 584 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 2: guys are so lucky, you know. But I noticed that 585 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 2: they also had a lot of confidence. Like Jeff was 586 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,800 Speaker 2: in a very charming way. Was he was just downright cocky. 587 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 2: He just he knew he he knew he was good. 588 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 2: You know, he didn't. It wasn't like me like wondering 589 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 2: if you know, what's that next choro? So now you know, 590 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,919 Speaker 2: I was always like double checking myself and wondering, who 591 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 2: is going to go? Yeah, this guy doesn't really play 592 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 2: that great we should get somebody else, you know. Uh, 593 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 2: I was always in that world in my head. And 594 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 2: parents of these guys that never give a second thought 595 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 2: about whether they deserve the gig or not, you know, 596 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 2: they just you know, this is what I do, and 597 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 2: I'm damn good at it, you know. And I really 598 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 2: admired that if I found that just really alluring, you 599 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 2: know about these guys, and uh, they were talking about 600 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 2: playing with Steely Dan like it was just to walk 601 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 2: in the park, you know. And uh, you know, I 602 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 2: knew if I were in that room on that floor, 603 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 2: I'd be sweating bullets, you know. So, uh, you know, 604 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 2: that was what I remember about meeting those guys first time, 605 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 2: was just being introduced to that you know that the 606 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 2: Cats send, you know, the guys that were you know, 607 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 2: they they knew they belonged in the circle of a 608 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 2: list musicians, you know. And these guys were like in 609 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 2: their teams at that point, they were like nineteen eighteen, 610 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 2: nineteen years old and already playing you know a lot 611 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,720 Speaker 2: of major recording dates in Los Angeles of all places. 612 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: Well, what was the conversation or what happened that night 613 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: such that two years later, Jeff Percaro said, come audition 614 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: for Steely Dan. Why did he remember you? 615 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 2: I think he enjoyed playing with me. I mean, I 616 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 2: think we had We had a lot of fun that night. 617 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 2: We played a lot of great R and B stuff 618 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 2: that we all liked, you know, that we hadn't probably 619 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,240 Speaker 2: had a chance to play in a while, dance music 620 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 2: that I was used to playing because I played in 621 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 2: the clubs more than they did. But you know, average 622 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 2: White band, you know, Tower Power stuff, you know, some 623 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 2: Steely Dan stuff, and a lot of the older R 624 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:54,840 Speaker 2: and B stuff resa you know, all our favorite songs. 625 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 2: And we were for the most part improvising, just kind 626 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 2: of playing off the court yard and in some cases 627 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 2: making up the arrangements as we went, you know. But 628 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 2: it was a lot of fun. And and I think 629 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 2: Jeff enjoyed my voice as a lead singer, and you 630 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 2: know some of the different you know, uh, you know, 631 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 2: you always try to bring your own interpretation to a song, 632 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 2: you know. So and I think he knew enough about 633 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 2: what we were doing and he's we were playing, and 634 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 2: that he thought he might have been impressed that I 635 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 2: sang as high as I did, you know, because a 636 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:41,879 Speaker 2: lot of people don't think I do, and I don't 637 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,760 Speaker 2: sound like I do, but uh, I'm basically a tenor 638 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 2: as far as vocalist goes. And so when they were 639 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 2: finally uh and they were talking about leaving, they were 640 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 2: finishing the record that then this is a year before 641 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 2: he called me, uh and they were going to go 642 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 2: out on tour. Well they that never kind of came 643 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 2: to fruition. Uh. It was a year later and they 644 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 2: were still trying to put a band together to go 645 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 2: on tour. So Jeff suggested me as possibly playing some 646 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 2: miscellaneous keyboards and uh and being able to sing uh 647 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 2: the backgrounds, you know, and they even handle the lead 648 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 2: uh Donald, So uh, I wanted to take a break, 649 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 2: you know on something I'll find the song to to 650 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 2: throw it around a little bit. So uh. For whatever reason, 651 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 2: he he, he liked what we did that night enough 652 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 2: to call me the year later and said, you know, 653 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 2: I thought about you. You know, I suggested that guys 654 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 2: maybe should come down to audition, and they said, sure, 655 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 2: have him come down. I said, great, I'm free all week. 656 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 2: You know, well, well it's a good time because like 657 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,760 Speaker 2: right now, you know, come on down, bring your piano, 658 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 2: just you know, well run through some stuff. And see 659 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,720 Speaker 2: what they think, you know. Ah, so I was amazed 660 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 2: that he even thought of it. A year later, we 661 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 2: pretty much became friends immediately. You know. It wasn't well, 662 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 2: you know, from from the moment we started rehearsing with 663 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 2: Steven Dan. I think Jeff and I became kind of 664 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 2: lifelong friends. I appreciated very much what he had done 665 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 2: for me and his confidence in me to be able 666 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 2: to pull it off. Ah. But also we you know, 667 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 2: we had a kind of a kindred spirit and sense 668 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 2: of I don't know, you know, family, uh, the start 669 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 2: sensitive sensibilities, you know, regarding life in general, you know, 670 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 2: uh and uh so and Jeff was just one of 671 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 2: those guys that everybody loved. The guy. You know, he 672 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 2: reminded me of my dad in that way. I think 673 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 2: that was my you know what I I why I 674 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 2: think I I gravitated into our friendship so much was 675 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 2: he didn't remind me of my dad. He was just 676 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 2: one of those guys that was, uh, everybody seemed to like. 677 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 2: You know, he had a charm about him, you know 678 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,839 Speaker 2: that uh that you know, attracted people. And I think 679 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 2: in a way I was he reminded me of my 680 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 2: dad in that way just kind of had that personality 681 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,360 Speaker 2: that you know, uh, it was like the farthest thing 682 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,840 Speaker 2: from reality for me. You know, I always felt like 683 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 2: I was, you know, somebody was going to call out 684 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 2: my name and they were gonna put me in a 685 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 2: paddy wagon or something, you know. Uh, but I always 686 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 2: was attracted to people who seemed self assured, you know, 687 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 2: and uh uh my dad was like that, and Jeff 688 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 2: was was definitely like that. 689 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: Okay, musicians are the best networkers exton. And you were 690 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: really in that world you're in LA, you're playing different 691 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: shows and putting bands together. Were you the type of 692 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 1: person who was just a good hang or they only 693 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,399 Speaker 1: heard you once and said, you know, that's the hot guy. 694 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: You got to get to him. What was the magic 695 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: of your networking such a you could continue to work. 696 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 2: Well, that's probably one of the most important things in 697 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,839 Speaker 2: especially in session world, is you know, it's one thing 698 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 2: to be a good player, to be able to handle, 699 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 2: you know, and even but to be a good personal 700 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,399 Speaker 2: person could be a good hang or you know, to 701 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 2: to be able to hang with guys and you know, 702 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,760 Speaker 2: have a certain sense of humor, you know, you know, whatever, 703 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 2: you know, it makes for a good conversation that was 704 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 2: equally important. You know, it seemed like there was a 705 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 2: camaraderie with all session players and producers. You know that 706 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 2: it was about enjoyment of being around those people by 707 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 2: as much as their their talent and their ability to play. 708 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:10,359 Speaker 2: And I think, uh, you know, there were always those 709 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 2: guys that probably were a little socially in that that 710 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 2: but played so great that you know, you wanted them 711 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,280 Speaker 2: on your session. You know, everybody kind of you know, uh, 712 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,759 Speaker 2: but you uh for the average guy, but it was 713 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 2: a good player, you know, or could do the job. Uh. 714 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 2: An important ingredient would be to be a good hang 715 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 2: and to be someone that people liked, uh, that were 716 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,839 Speaker 2: happy to see walk in the room, you know. Uh. 717 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 2: And I that was never lost on me. You know. 718 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 2: You know, I'm not sure I ever uh was all 719 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,240 Speaker 2: that good at it, but I I knew it was important, 720 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,720 Speaker 2: you know, And I knew that, uh, I I wanted 721 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 2: to you know, I don't know what the word is, 722 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 2: you know, endear myself to the people and the room, 723 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 2: you know, so uh that that somehow was an important 724 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 2: ingredient that might getch you the next gig. You know. 725 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 1: Okay, there's a lot of focus on your family. Your 726 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 1: father leaves the house, he comes back now and again, 727 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: but you got your mother, you got your two sisters. 728 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,399 Speaker 1: You talk about from the time you start working as 729 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,359 Speaker 1: a teenager, you're kicking in for the household bills. Then 730 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: they follow you out to California. You know, there are 731 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 1: some situations that are uncomfortable, but when one reads it, 732 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: you go, this must have been a big drag on 733 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 1: you emotionally and made it even harder to be successful. 734 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't know, I mean. 735 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 4: Uh, I do remember having a taste of freedom from 736 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 4: the familial you know, effort to you know, stay afloat 737 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:56,919 Speaker 4: that we grew up with. 738 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,359 Speaker 2: But and you know, just to be actually on my 739 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,800 Speaker 2: own living in California at nineteen, you know, I was like, wow, 740 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 2: this is an eye opener. In some ways. I think 741 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 2: it opened the door to me, you know, possibly getting 742 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,239 Speaker 2: into more trouble than I bargained for because I just 743 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,759 Speaker 2: really wasn't used to well. I was in bands and 744 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 2: we were on the road back in the Midwest a 745 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 2: lot too, so were was no shortage of you know, 746 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 2: shenanigans back then. But coming to California, it was just 747 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,760 Speaker 2: such an eye opener. It was just such a different world, 748 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 2: you know. It was nothing like where I came from, 749 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:47,439 Speaker 2: you know, And so when it was time to bring 750 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,719 Speaker 2: my family back out, there was a certain kind of like, oh, 751 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 2: you know, I'm really kind of enjoying this, you know, 752 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 2: being grown up on my own, you know, living my 753 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 2: own life in California. But uh, you know we did 754 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 2: all well, not to sound you know, modeling, but you know, 755 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 2: my mom for sure had sacrificed so much just to 756 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,400 Speaker 2: raise us, you know, my sisters and I and uh, 757 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,359 Speaker 2: you know, this was kind of I knew what part 758 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 2: of this was surgery, you know that somehow I would 759 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 2: you know, be able to make a living in California 760 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 2: and they'd all be able to move out and you know, 761 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:36,359 Speaker 2: we've uh whatever behind us. You know. For my mom, 762 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 2: it was a leaving a failed marriage and leaving you 763 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 2: know a lot of hard work, you know, and maybe 764 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:46,319 Speaker 2: being able to cash in a little bit on the 765 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,719 Speaker 2: rewards of you know, sticking sticking out with all of 766 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 2: us and you know, and doing her best for us, 767 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 2: you know, And I felt I owed her that, you know, 768 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 2: so uh, you know, I knew that was her dream 769 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 2: was to move to California, and my sisters and I, 770 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,280 Speaker 2: you know, we're always very close, so you know, uh, 771 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 2: I knew once they got out here, they would take 772 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:10,160 Speaker 2: over a lot of the I always left the family 773 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,560 Speaker 2: stuff to them, you know, you know whatever. Uh, And 774 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,359 Speaker 2: I was always kind of given this carte blanche of like, well, 775 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,280 Speaker 2: he just goes and does what he does, and uh, 776 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,480 Speaker 2: you know, and he's you know, uh, as long as 777 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,520 Speaker 2: he helps out financially, we're good. You know. Uh, they 778 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 2: don't really need me around. They just you know, needed 779 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 2: my help. And we all we needed you know, when 780 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,480 Speaker 2: we're growing up, we all needed that to band together. 781 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,760 Speaker 2: You know. My mom and her sisters, my grandmother. Uh, 782 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 2: we lived in a kind of communal situation, you know, uh, 783 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,399 Speaker 2: not in the same house, but we all they all 784 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,400 Speaker 2: raised each other's kids, and my grandmother raised us for 785 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 2: the most part while they all worked. And uh so 786 00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:01,440 Speaker 2: it was a very uh a meshed kind of a 787 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 2: family for better or worse, very a meshed kind of 788 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 2: family experience. 789 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:11,279 Speaker 1: Okay, but it ultimately doesn't work out and everybody goes 790 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,239 Speaker 1: back to Saint Louis and then it works better and 791 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 1: everybody comes back. What was your emotion after you make 792 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,879 Speaker 1: a record, nothing happens, family comes out, you go back 793 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,280 Speaker 1: to Saint Louis. Well, how did you feel. 794 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 2: Oh? I think that played into my a part of 795 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:40,799 Speaker 2: myself that I didn't even really know consciously yet, which was, uh, 796 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:43,879 Speaker 2: this is not over for me. I'm going to get 797 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:45,960 Speaker 2: back out to California. You know. I think I had 798 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 2: that in the back of my mind, you know, from 799 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,799 Speaker 2: the minute I got everybody back home, you know, and 800 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:58,080 Speaker 2: uh we all left after the earthquake, uh, you know, 801 00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,640 Speaker 2: and my album got de scrapped. You know. I just 802 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 2: I think even then that it could be one of 803 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:13,040 Speaker 2: the lower points of my uh inspiration in terms of 804 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,680 Speaker 2: the music business. I wasn't ready to give up, you know, 805 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 2: even with my dad doing you know, while you're home, 806 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 2: you should take that g D. You know, uh, maybe 807 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,800 Speaker 2: look at this community college up here in Florence. And 808 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:32,399 Speaker 2: you know, even in those conversations, I was going, Nah, 809 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,799 Speaker 2: I gotta I've had a taste of California. I know, 810 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,880 Speaker 2: I think I know what's going on out there to 811 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,759 Speaker 2: the degree that I maybe thought I did. And and 812 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,480 Speaker 2: but I knew I had to get back, you know, 813 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,759 Speaker 2: that somehow I would figure that out. I wasn't sure 814 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:52,560 Speaker 2: how h. 815 00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,600 Speaker 1: Okay. You know, you start out, you're a teenager by 816 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,800 Speaker 1: time you contemplate going to California. What is the dream? 817 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:09,920 Speaker 1: What is it you want? What do you see on 818 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:10,719 Speaker 1: the horizon? 819 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,640 Speaker 2: I think I wanted to make records, you know. That 820 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,120 Speaker 2: was that That's how I saw the music business, you know, 821 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,680 Speaker 2: in the simplest form, was I want to make a 822 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,399 Speaker 2: record that someone can actually put out and maybe get 823 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,200 Speaker 2: on the radio and then let people decide whether I'm 824 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,200 Speaker 2: any good or not, you know, but just to be 825 00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:35,200 Speaker 2: able to get into that those circles where people actually 826 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:41,200 Speaker 2: made records that were actually viable, possible radio play, you know, 827 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,160 Speaker 2: for the radio stations around the country. You know, I 828 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,600 Speaker 2: wanted to be that guy that, like myself, when I'm 829 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:51,920 Speaker 2: driving down the freeway and I hear that song come on, 830 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,240 Speaker 2: and that joyous moment of reaching over and just cranking 831 00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,759 Speaker 2: that sucker, you know, as loud as I can and 832 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,799 Speaker 2: listen to that song all way down the highway. I 833 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,160 Speaker 2: wanted to be that for somebody else. I wanted I 834 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:09,279 Speaker 2: want someone else to have that experience concerning my music. 835 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,839 Speaker 1: Did you see yourself as a solo act or a 836 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,440 Speaker 1: band or the front man. Was there something in your 837 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:16,680 Speaker 1: mind's eye. 838 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,520 Speaker 2: I was always pretty malleable with that. I was always 839 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,319 Speaker 2: more comfortable being in a band, in a band, you know, 840 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,720 Speaker 2: being a band guy, you know, but I was willing 841 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,960 Speaker 2: to try solo artists. Thing that was my first deal 842 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:34,840 Speaker 2: with Warner Brother with R Cier, was to make a 843 00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:42,719 Speaker 2: record as a solo artist, singer, composer. But I'm not 844 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,239 Speaker 2: sure I was ever really prepared to do that, you know. 845 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,879 Speaker 2: I think I just took everything kind of one step 846 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,279 Speaker 2: at a time, you know, figured i'd figure out the 847 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,239 Speaker 2: rest of it, what it was like to be a performer. 848 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:55,480 Speaker 2: You know. I wanted to sing like Tom Jones, and 849 00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:00,120 Speaker 2: I wanted to write songs like Burt Backerack and uh 850 00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:03,680 Speaker 2: somewhere into that realm, you know, I thought I would 851 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,000 Speaker 2: be happy. I loved R and B. But I didn't 852 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:12,520 Speaker 2: consider myself a real R and B singer, you know, 853 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:19,799 Speaker 2: per se you know, ah and are really having a 854 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:24,239 Speaker 2: chance in that market much, you know. I I love 855 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,680 Speaker 2: singing and stuff, and I loved that was my favorite 856 00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:32,000 Speaker 2: music at the time. But I feel I kind of 857 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,200 Speaker 2: I guess I saw myself more as a pop artist, 858 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,080 Speaker 2: you know, in my mind's eye, or that I had 859 00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,120 Speaker 2: more of a chance of being successful making records in 860 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:46,960 Speaker 2: that realm you cut to chase, you know, the record 861 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:52,200 Speaker 2: got scrapped and probably for everyone's benefit, and I went 862 00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,759 Speaker 2: back home for a minute, got back out to California, 863 00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,920 Speaker 2: but always it was the drive to kind of somehow 864 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:02,000 Speaker 2: get into the recording pusician, you know. And then it 865 00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:06,880 Speaker 2: wasn't long before working for Richard producer. I worked for 866 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:12,560 Speaker 2: quite a bit, played on a lot of sessions that 867 00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,840 Speaker 2: I my my dream then kind of I was nothing 868 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,320 Speaker 2: if not valuable. You know. I thought, well, if I 869 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,760 Speaker 2: could just you know, get a little better on piano 870 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,880 Speaker 2: and play more sessions, I would be happy. And just 871 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,200 Speaker 2: being a guy that played sessions enough to pay the 872 00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:29,880 Speaker 2: bills and you know, work, I could work in clubs, 873 00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,640 Speaker 2: you know, in my off time. But if if I 874 00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,080 Speaker 2: could work enough to do more sessions and make a 875 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:40,560 Speaker 2: living good living at it, uh that I would be happy, 876 00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:45,000 Speaker 2: you know. And uh So for a while that was 877 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:46,960 Speaker 2: all I was really shooting at it. But then you know, 878 00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,920 Speaker 2: it would come up that friends of mine were going 879 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:51,520 Speaker 2: to go on the road with somebody. I thought, oh, 880 00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:53,879 Speaker 2: that sounds like fun, and that sounds like a great gig, 881 00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:58,440 Speaker 2: you know, and uh, you know, none of us got 882 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,279 Speaker 2: paid that much for it. He had to be really 883 00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,480 Speaker 2: the ace guy, doing so many sessions that they had 884 00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,000 Speaker 2: to pay you thousands of dollars to leak down, you know, 885 00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,520 Speaker 2: to turn your back on that, you know. But I 886 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:12,600 Speaker 2: wasn't that guy, and so I was more in the 887 00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,200 Speaker 2: rome of guys who would go on the road next 888 00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:19,240 Speaker 2: to nothing and you know, play as mindy cakes as possible. 889 00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,480 Speaker 2: But you know, if you were lucky enough to be 890 00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:25,080 Speaker 2: with the band, you loved it. It was nothing better 891 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,600 Speaker 2: than that. You know. It's kind of like being in 892 00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:29,600 Speaker 2: love and being broke, you know. It was like, you know, hey, 893 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:33,920 Speaker 2: this is the best. You know. So I was always 894 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,239 Speaker 2: looking for one of those gigs to come up. And 895 00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,640 Speaker 2: when it actually happened that my steely Dan's dream kind 896 00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:44,719 Speaker 2: of came true, I couldn't believe it, you know, that 897 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,879 Speaker 2: I would actually get to play with this band who 898 00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,080 Speaker 2: eded at the moment, was my favorite band in the world, 899 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:55,000 Speaker 2: you know. And it's like a lot of those kind 900 00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,200 Speaker 2: of gigs you get them, it's a dream come true 901 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:02,319 Speaker 2: and I can't think of it being any better. And 902 00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,600 Speaker 2: then they break up, and you know, you're back to 903 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:09,440 Speaker 2: the Trojan Room in Glendale, playing a couple of their 904 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:13,600 Speaker 2: songs in your set at night. You know. So you know, 905 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:15,640 Speaker 2: it was the ups and downs of all that. But 906 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:17,399 Speaker 2: you know, as long as I could make a living 907 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,600 Speaker 2: as a musician, I was. I was for the most part, 908 00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:20,520 Speaker 2: I was happy. You know. 909 00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:26,080 Speaker 1: Okay, eventually you have this large success, you know, you 910 00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,640 Speaker 1: buy a house, your mother has her friends staying in 911 00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:35,520 Speaker 1: your house. But to what degree when you have the 912 00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:38,799 Speaker 1: success and you have everybody can use more money, but 913 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,120 Speaker 1: you have more money than you need to pay the bills, 914 00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,239 Speaker 1: to what degree did you have a responsibility to take 915 00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,120 Speaker 1: care of the other three family members? And to what 916 00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:49,760 Speaker 1: degree did they ask? 917 00:54:54,600 --> 00:55:00,520 Speaker 2: You know, I I don't know that My family was 918 00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,560 Speaker 2: ever really very demanding and everybody had their own you know, 919 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,640 Speaker 2: my sisters were both singers and bands, and uh you know, 920 00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:11,480 Speaker 2: we all worked. You know. I I helped out my 921 00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:14,360 Speaker 2: family as much as I could. You know, I always 922 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,759 Speaker 2: happy to do that. You know, Uh, my mom, it 923 00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,799 Speaker 2: was my It was kind of like the delegation was 924 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:27,120 Speaker 2: mom is my responsibility and financially and uh uh the 925 00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 2: girls you know had their own lives. You know, they 926 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:34,000 Speaker 2: had husbands at a certain point, and so I wasn't 927 00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:37,800 Speaker 2: really interfering in their lives that much. I would be happy, 928 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,160 Speaker 2: you know, to help them out financially if I could 929 00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,640 Speaker 2: on something, But for the most part, everybody was pretty 930 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:46,319 Speaker 2: so sufficient. You know. Uh my mom, I think we 931 00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,440 Speaker 2: all felt deserved to break, you know. And uh, so 932 00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,359 Speaker 2: you know, I got her a house, and but she 933 00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:56,640 Speaker 2: wasn't happy unless she was working. So she continued to work. 934 00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,480 Speaker 2: And so she went to school, became a travel agent. 935 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:05,160 Speaker 2: And my mom and her uh you know, inevitable style, 936 00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,320 Speaker 2: wound up being a travel agent to like more celebrities 937 00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,759 Speaker 2: than I'd ever met in my life, you know. And 938 00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,440 Speaker 2: uh she was like the celebrities of the travel agents, 939 00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:18,720 Speaker 2: of the stars, uh, actors, you know, the beach boys 940 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:22,240 Speaker 2: all they they did their travel through my mom. Uh 941 00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,800 Speaker 2: you know, all kinds of folks that I met actually 942 00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,560 Speaker 2: through my mom as their travel agent, you know. But 943 00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,120 Speaker 2: so she was happy working. But now she didn't need 944 00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:36,839 Speaker 2: to struggle so much to just you know, raise three 945 00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,799 Speaker 2: kids and uh, you know, less than one hundred bucks 946 00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,680 Speaker 2: a week, you know. Uh, those days were over and 947 00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,920 Speaker 2: so we we we all and we all participated. My 948 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:51,040 Speaker 2: sisters were always really more on uh, on site kind 949 00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,000 Speaker 2: of help with my mom whenever, you know, she needed, 950 00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:57,560 Speaker 2: especially as she got older, you know, uh, organizing her 951 00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,040 Speaker 2: health care and stuff like that. To Cathy was always 952 00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,560 Speaker 2: really great about that, you know, and her sister Marge, 953 00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,640 Speaker 2: my aunt Betsy was always really a bit at that. 954 00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:10,280 Speaker 2: Nobody gave me much credit for being able to handle 955 00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,600 Speaker 2: those things very well. So we all kind of took 956 00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:16,360 Speaker 2: on our best suited jobs. 957 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,320 Speaker 1: Okay, you're on the road with Steely Dan. You talk 958 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:24,960 Speaker 1: about being in London and the two key members were 959 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:29,120 Speaker 1: in their own hotel room. To what degree was the 960 00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:33,440 Speaker 1: band all in it together or were Walter and Donald 961 00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:35,960 Speaker 1: separate and the rest of the band. 962 00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:40,280 Speaker 2: Hung well, I think it would be safe to say 963 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:45,600 Speaker 2: that everybody saw Walter and Donald as the source of 964 00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:50,480 Speaker 2: creativity for what was eventually would be Seely Dan in 965 00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:54,240 Speaker 2: any sense. You know, those guys wrote the songs, They 966 00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:58,880 Speaker 2: were the brains behind the operation, you know kind of thing, 967 00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,040 Speaker 2: and we all felt really fortunate to be part of 968 00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:07,240 Speaker 2: their music, you know, we all fans first. Now, there 969 00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:09,560 Speaker 2: were the guys that were originally in the band who 970 00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,360 Speaker 2: came out to New York for them, who played them, uh, 971 00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:16,320 Speaker 2: you know, from the beginning, you know, on the Winnebago 972 00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:18,640 Speaker 2: tours as we say, you know, and had been in 973 00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:22,640 Speaker 2: from the beginning. But even those guys I think looked 974 00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:28,000 Speaker 2: to Donald and Walter as they all brought their particular expertise. 975 00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:35,040 Speaker 2: Danny Diaz, Jeff Baxter, Jimmy Hotter, they they all had 976 00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:37,640 Speaker 2: what they did well, and that's what they brought to 977 00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,320 Speaker 2: the band. But I think everybody looked to Donald and 978 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,680 Speaker 2: Walter for that creative source that that made the band 979 00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:48,240 Speaker 2: what it was musically ultimately. 980 00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:51,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, but how much in terms of hang could you 981 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,520 Speaker 1: hang with Walter and Donald or was it clear they're 982 00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:56,400 Speaker 1: in their own bubble? 983 00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:04,080 Speaker 2: Probably a little of both, you know, but uh, they 984 00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,080 Speaker 2: were both very funny guy. It's great hang you know 985 00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:10,640 Speaker 2: when we all we all pretty much hung together at 986 00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:15,520 Speaker 2: the cage on days. But at the same time, there 987 00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:21,600 Speaker 2: was a probably you can on the off days, uh, 988 00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:24,840 Speaker 2: I would probably be running around town with one of 989 00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,440 Speaker 2: the guys in the band or the crew, you know, 990 00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,440 Speaker 2: we all you know, and so this was kind of 991 00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:33,840 Speaker 2: a special treat to be called up to Donald and 992 00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:39,720 Speaker 2: Walters enclave at this hotel in London to spend the 993 00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:41,560 Speaker 2: day just hanging out. But we did that a lot. 994 00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,360 Speaker 2: We did that too, you know. And like I say, 995 00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:47,080 Speaker 2: those guys were very funny. It was always fun to 996 00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,960 Speaker 2: be around them, you know, and their their view of 997 00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,960 Speaker 2: the world around them was always worth the price of 998 00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,479 Speaker 2: the mission, you know. Uh. They had a real sense 999 00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:01,120 Speaker 2: of irony when it came to encountering people, you know, uh, 1000 01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:03,959 Speaker 2: and just different things the way they looked at life, 1001 01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:08,040 Speaker 2: you know, especially in the music business, and so uh 1002 01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,080 Speaker 2: that was all part of that scene. You know. They 1003 01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:16,720 Speaker 2: were kind of hiding out from the promoters and h 1004 01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:22,640 Speaker 2: in our executives and uh management uh and held up 1005 01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:27,560 Speaker 2: in their ivory tower of Blake's Hotel, and everybody was 1006 01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:29,400 Speaker 2: down in the lobby pulling their hair out trying to 1007 01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:31,400 Speaker 2: get a phone call up to those guys. And they 1008 01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:34,200 Speaker 2: had just you know, decided we're going to do this 1009 01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:39,160 Speaker 2: our way, the highway, you know, and uh so and 1010 01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:41,080 Speaker 2: we will let you know when we're ready to talk 1011 01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:41,280 Speaker 2: to you. 1012 01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:42,640 Speaker 1: Uh. 1013 01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:44,600 Speaker 2: And somehow in the middle of that, we were invited 1014 01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:46,240 Speaker 2: up to the room to just kind of hang out 1015 01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:50,920 Speaker 2: for the afternoon and you know, ah and you know, 1016 01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,880 Speaker 2: hang well. 1017 01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:58,600 Speaker 1: Denny Diaz, to my knowledge, ultimately became a computer programmer, 1018 01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:02,920 Speaker 1: not everybody he can eke out a living in music. 1019 01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:06,480 Speaker 1: Those people, how do they ultimately make a decision to 1020 01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:08,200 Speaker 1: make a left turn? What have you learned? 1021 01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:13,880 Speaker 2: Uh? You know, I think that's just such a personal decision, 1022 01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,479 Speaker 2: you know. And I think if you have the what's 1023 01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,800 Speaker 2: tempting is if you actually have an acumen for something 1024 01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:24,200 Speaker 2: like that, Like I think Denny's interest was always there, 1025 01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:29,000 Speaker 2: you know, for it stuff and you know, computers, uh 1026 01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:32,720 Speaker 2: and he was always fascinated with technical things, technical you know, 1027 01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:41,160 Speaker 2: uh uh here, recording, you know, uh stuff, So it 1028 01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:43,800 Speaker 2: would be an easy transition for him, you know. And 1029 01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:47,280 Speaker 2: I think once again, you know, the great equalizers when 1030 01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,760 Speaker 2: when he gets married, you know, you look at your 1031 01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:54,720 Speaker 2: life differently. You know, you're not willing or you know, 1032 01:01:55,680 --> 01:02:00,680 Speaker 2: collectively as a unit, you're not willing to charge the 1033 01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:04,440 Speaker 2: road of economic despair, you know, any more than you 1034 01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:11,200 Speaker 2: have to, you know. And so you know, for some 1035 01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,680 Speaker 2: of the guys, I think it was an easy transition 1036 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:15,600 Speaker 2: for some of them. Not, you know, not so much, 1037 01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:24,400 Speaker 2: you know. But now it's a hard question to answer. 1038 01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:27,200 Speaker 2: For me. All I know from my own experience was 1039 01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:30,640 Speaker 2: I would have been afraid to enter most of any 1040 01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:34,200 Speaker 2: of those worlds you know, I didn't even understand them 1041 01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:36,680 Speaker 2: as they pertained to music, much less what I understand 1042 01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:38,280 Speaker 2: them outside of music. You know. 1043 01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:52,360 Speaker 1: Okay, you're playing in bands in the area of Missouri, Indiana, Illinois, 1044 01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:57,720 Speaker 1: and you ultimately interact with Irving Azoff World as an 1045 01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:01,440 Speaker 1: agent in Illinois, and he ultimately becomes your manager in 1046 01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:05,480 Speaker 1: your solo career. What was Irving like when he was 1047 01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:06,840 Speaker 1: in Illinois? 1048 01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:11,760 Speaker 2: Exactly like Irving is now. I don't think he's changed 1049 01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:17,920 Speaker 2: one bit, but in all the good ways. I mean, 1050 01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:22,280 Speaker 2: I have a great respect for his friend first, you know, 1051 01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:26,400 Speaker 2: but as a manager for sure, you know, as a 1052 01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:31,160 Speaker 2: as a I think, as a person with great perspective 1053 01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,200 Speaker 2: about the music business. And I think it's made him 1054 01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:37,640 Speaker 2: as many enemies as friends, you know. But I think 1055 01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:40,320 Speaker 2: it's very telling that most of his friends are artists 1056 01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:43,840 Speaker 2: that he has helped, you know. You know, Irving was 1057 01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:48,120 Speaker 2: one of those guys where you know, the suits. I'll 1058 01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:50,200 Speaker 2: love to tell you what a scoundrel Irving can be, 1059 01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:56,080 Speaker 2: you know, ruthless, you know, blah blah blah. Pretty much 1060 01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:59,200 Speaker 2: every musician that's ever worked with him is you know, 1061 01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:02,440 Speaker 2: can we will tell you that the guys the best 1062 01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:06,080 Speaker 2: there is you know, as far as looking out for 1063 01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:11,680 Speaker 2: artist interests, for being wise in his advice to artists, uh, 1064 01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:15,480 Speaker 2: and guiding their careers. Uh. I think you'd be hard 1065 01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:20,680 Speaker 2: pressed to find anyone. It's even you know, in his league, 1066 01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:24,800 Speaker 2: you know, to be quite honest. Uh. You know, all 1067 01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:27,440 Speaker 2: the guys from that from that office that was our 1068 01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:31,400 Speaker 2: booking agency and Champagne Illinois, of all places, uh, I 1069 01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:34,920 Speaker 2: have done really really well. They were They were kind 1070 01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:42,040 Speaker 2: of the new age of perspective on management of musical artists. 1071 01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:47,480 Speaker 2: You know, John Barrick, all the guys in those offices 1072 01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:54,720 Speaker 2: were really uh kind of groundbreaking, uh, artist centric kind 1073 01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:57,200 Speaker 2: of view of the business. You know. 1074 01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:03,280 Speaker 1: Okay, you start off the bands as a guitarist, ultimately 1075 01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:06,320 Speaker 1: you're a piano player. Tell us how what's going on there? 1076 01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:11,400 Speaker 2: Yeah? Again, you know I was always just doing you know, 1077 01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:16,720 Speaker 2: for me musically, I was just do whatever was required 1078 01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:18,520 Speaker 2: for the next song we were going to learn off 1079 01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:21,920 Speaker 2: of some record. You know. It was just it was 1080 01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:23,680 Speaker 2: if there was a piano on it. That's why I 1081 01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:26,720 Speaker 2: started playing piano again. Bands. Was all of a sudden 1082 01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:28,880 Speaker 2: there was these records coming out. They had keyboards and 1083 01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:39,360 Speaker 2: you know, yeah, so I I uh, would you know, 1084 01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:43,080 Speaker 2: just learned the song on that instrument, you know, as 1085 01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:47,400 Speaker 2: best I could, you know, and uh we would kind 1086 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:51,320 Speaker 2: of come up with our own arrangement of it for 1087 01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,400 Speaker 2: a four piece band, you know. And so uh, you know, 1088 01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:59,640 Speaker 2: I kind of learned to play any instrument more from 1089 01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:04,280 Speaker 2: my experience with bands than from any formal training or 1090 01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:07,560 Speaker 2: lessons that I ever took on piano or or anything. 1091 01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:11,480 Speaker 1: You know, you have a unique voice. If we heard 1092 01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:15,440 Speaker 1: you sixty years ago, would you still sound like you 1093 01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:19,200 Speaker 1: do on your famous records? 1094 01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:24,160 Speaker 2: Probably not. I think the voice all by itself, for 1095 01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:30,520 Speaker 2: anyone is an ever changing instrument, you know. I mean, 1096 01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,760 Speaker 2: I think there's certain traits that remain, you know, are 1097 01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:37,120 Speaker 2: recognizable as remain. But as you get older, you know, 1098 01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:39,880 Speaker 2: you have to kind of adjust to what your strengths 1099 01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:44,000 Speaker 2: are at this point time physically as a singer. And 1100 01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:47,160 Speaker 2: I was always kind of a you know, if you 1101 01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:52,600 Speaker 2: have a two categories crooner screamer, I was always a 1102 01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:55,280 Speaker 2: little more to the screamer side of things, you know, 1103 01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:59,560 Speaker 2: and playing singing in keys that were probably a little 1104 01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:05,920 Speaker 2: bit technically too high for me, uh ah not, you know, 1105 01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:10,640 Speaker 2: not taking it easy, you know, in terms of kind 1106 01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:13,320 Speaker 2: of pushing my voice, you know, as much as I could, 1107 01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:18,400 Speaker 2: and I felt that that's what uh I could bring 1108 01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:21,040 Speaker 2: to you know, I could be you know, I could 1109 01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:24,400 Speaker 2: do the Mitch Ryder stuff, or the James Brown songs 1110 01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:32,400 Speaker 2: or the you know uh where. I paid for that 1111 01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:35,120 Speaker 2: later in like, you know, as I got older, I 1112 01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:37,360 Speaker 2: suddenly realized and even early on, I paid for it. 1113 01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:39,919 Speaker 2: I realized, you know, you can't just scream all the time. 1114 01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,680 Speaker 2: It won't be singing two years from now, you know. 1115 01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:46,880 Speaker 2: So I started to develop a style of singing for 1116 01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:50,240 Speaker 2: myself that had as much to do with function as 1117 01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:52,560 Speaker 2: it did with form. You know. It was so that 1118 01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:55,919 Speaker 2: I could keep singing all night, you know, and uh 1119 01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:59,040 Speaker 2: but that I could sound like I was really putting 1120 01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:02,120 Speaker 2: it out there, you know, which I was in one respect, 1121 01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,720 Speaker 2: But I was learning to not hurt myself in the process, 1122 01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:09,280 Speaker 2: you know. And uh I learned later when I started 1123 01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:13,000 Speaker 2: to become more acquainted with some of my favorite singers 1124 01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:17,120 Speaker 2: from that era, that they all had that they had 1125 01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:20,080 Speaker 2: all developed that some of the best gospel singers, you know, 1126 01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:22,360 Speaker 2: they just sound like they're ripping their own vocal cards 1127 01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,920 Speaker 2: out from the inside, but you know, they really have 1128 01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:33,679 Speaker 2: a technique that allows them to you know, just uh shout, 1129 01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:39,759 Speaker 2: scream this this song out, you know, uh, but without 1130 01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:43,360 Speaker 2: hurting themselves, you know, with it's a it's an intrinsic 1131 01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:47,759 Speaker 2: kind of ability that they develop, you know. And uh 1132 01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:52,360 Speaker 2: and and playing clubs I had. I found that that's 1133 01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:54,080 Speaker 2: one of the best things playing clubs did for me 1134 01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:58,840 Speaker 2: was allow me to develop my vocal uh style in 1135 01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:04,599 Speaker 2: a reasonable way, a four man function, you know, because 1136 01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:08,320 Speaker 2: I was saying enough all the time that I was 1137 01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:11,120 Speaker 2: able to kind of find my voice in the nightclubs 1138 01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:11,719 Speaker 2: that I played. 1139 01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:16,639 Speaker 1: Okay, some people are writing three songs a day. Other 1140 01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:19,799 Speaker 1: people write, you know, only when they have a record. 1141 01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,320 Speaker 1: Do what's your writing situation? 1142 01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:26,479 Speaker 2: Uh? You know, I think I've always been the guy 1143 01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:28,400 Speaker 2: who would be lucky to write three songs a year, 1144 01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:32,200 Speaker 2: you know. You know, I don't. I'm not a prolific 1145 01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:37,400 Speaker 2: writer again, you know, like like a lot of things musically, 1146 01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:42,240 Speaker 2: I I approach it with a like you know, there's 1147 01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:43,680 Speaker 2: not a time I go to write a song that 1148 01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:46,680 Speaker 2: I'm not thinking in the back of my mind, I 1149 01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:49,080 Speaker 2: don't know, do I know how to do this? It's 1150 01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:53,439 Speaker 2: been a while or you know, you again, you change 1151 01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:57,759 Speaker 2: your approach, you know, over the years, and I certainly 1152 01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:00,439 Speaker 2: have done that, you know, or are you to just 1153 01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:03,960 Speaker 2: write grooves on the piano and then come up with 1154 01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:08,479 Speaker 2: words for it would be a very simplistic way of 1155 01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,599 Speaker 2: looking at it. Uh. I started to kind of take 1156 01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:13,920 Speaker 2: the songs themselves a little more seriously and hope that 1157 01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:18,240 Speaker 2: I was maybe saying something uh lyrically that you know, 1158 01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:24,800 Speaker 2: people could relate to on a deeper level. And then, 1159 01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:28,320 Speaker 2: you know, musically, I wanted to do to you know, 1160 01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:32,599 Speaker 2: develop and and and that entailed both things being more simple, 1161 01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:39,719 Speaker 2: you know, taking you know, appreciating simplicity more in my writing. Uh. 1162 01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:41,760 Speaker 2: You know, I always felt like I was one of 1163 01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:43,800 Speaker 2: those guys that were whatever new thing I learned, I 1164 01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:47,040 Speaker 2: would use it to death till even I was sick 1165 01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:49,640 Speaker 2: of it, you know. Uh So I would always have 1166 01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:53,680 Speaker 2: to kind of go through that process to where it 1167 01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:57,920 Speaker 2: till it finally became something useful and meaningful for me. 1168 01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:01,880 Speaker 2: You know. When I started to of understand a little 1169 01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:07,879 Speaker 2: more theory where chord progressions and key changes and relative 1170 01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:11,400 Speaker 2: keys and all that were concerned, then I started to 1171 01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:16,559 Speaker 2: write songs that had more chords in it than music itself, 1172 01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:20,400 Speaker 2: you know, I mean and to it fault, you know. 1173 01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:25,439 Speaker 2: But you know, you go through your faces and you 1174 01:11:25,439 --> 01:11:28,160 Speaker 2: you hopefully come out on the other side having learned something, 1175 01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:31,920 Speaker 2: you know. So it's always been a learning process for me, 1176 01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:38,080 Speaker 2: you know. And I think with writing songs it will 1177 01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:40,800 Speaker 2: always be. I go through this kind of love hate 1178 01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:43,240 Speaker 2: thing where I feel like it's something I'm putting on 1179 01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:46,880 Speaker 2: the back burner, leaving it on the stove too long, 1180 01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:49,200 Speaker 2: and I'm not going to look back and see it's 1181 01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:53,839 Speaker 2: catching fire or not, you know, out and then something happens, 1182 01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:56,040 Speaker 2: like the dude has decided to do a new record, 1183 01:11:56,040 --> 01:11:57,679 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, it's like, well, I guess 1184 01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:00,599 Speaker 2: I should pull out some of these notebook and start 1185 01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:03,920 Speaker 2: looking through them and seeing if I got anything here, 1186 01:12:04,040 --> 01:12:06,000 Speaker 2: you know, that I could make into a song, you know. 1187 01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:09,760 Speaker 2: And but I've never been one of those guys with 1188 01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:13,160 Speaker 2: a burning passion to write the next song. I've just 1189 01:12:13,240 --> 01:12:19,360 Speaker 2: been a musician who writes some music. And again, you know, 1190 01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:22,800 Speaker 2: I've worked with writers who are really very professional composers 1191 01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:26,680 Speaker 2: and take it very seriously, and that's a whole other 1192 01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:31,240 Speaker 2: level of songwriting to me. You know, it's a whole 1193 01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:35,439 Speaker 2: nother business of songwriting. For me, I'm just like I say, 1194 01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:37,920 Speaker 2: like one of the guys in the band, who's I 1195 01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:40,240 Speaker 2: got a song? You know what about this? You know, 1196 01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:45,320 Speaker 2: as opposed to you know, the very backrecs and people 1197 01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:48,840 Speaker 2: like that who do it very diligently and you know, 1198 01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:52,200 Speaker 2: take on huge projects like Broadway plays and movies and 1199 01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:52,800 Speaker 2: things like that. 1200 01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:57,639 Speaker 1: You know, Okay, I love, I keep forgetting. But your 1201 01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:00,760 Speaker 1: favorite song of mine is real love. Not only is 1202 01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:04,880 Speaker 1: it great musically, the lyrics are incredibly insightful. Tell me 1203 01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:05,840 Speaker 1: about that song. 1204 01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:15,640 Speaker 2: Uh, well, as I think for that song for me, 1205 01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:22,439 Speaker 2: uh was uh, you know, kind of I think one 1206 01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:24,200 Speaker 2: of one of the dobies. We started to kind of 1207 01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:26,960 Speaker 2: enter a little bit more into the you know, R 1208 01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:28,880 Speaker 2: and B world, but we always had that, you know, 1209 01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:31,880 Speaker 2: uh kind of one foot in the rock and roll world. 1210 01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:34,920 Speaker 2: And but our music started to develop a kind of 1211 01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:38,280 Speaker 2: an rhythm B lose uh sometimes even more of a 1212 01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:44,439 Speaker 2: jazz fusion feeling, and and that song was somewhere in 1213 01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:46,720 Speaker 2: between that. That song was one of one of our 1214 01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:50,559 Speaker 2: simpler songs. I actually cut the song for my solo, 1215 01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:54,440 Speaker 2: my first solo record, with Jeff Percaro and some other musicians. 1216 01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:59,200 Speaker 2: Steve luftre Think played on the date. Uh uh uh 1217 01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:05,040 Speaker 2: Patrick Henderson, Uh who I believe I wrote the song 1218 01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:10,920 Speaker 2: with it, if I'm not mistaken getting old to Foggy here, 1219 01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:14,600 Speaker 2: But we had cut a nice track of it, you know, 1220 01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,600 Speaker 2: and uh but at the time, I thought it was 1221 01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:23,400 Speaker 2: like the best thing I got. Right now, I'm not sure, Ah, 1222 01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:26,840 Speaker 2: I have anything I'm really half crazy about for the 1223 01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:29,880 Speaker 2: next Doobie's album, you know, and I saw I felt 1224 01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:34,640 Speaker 2: like I owed it to the Doobie's troject to do 1225 01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:38,479 Speaker 2: whatever I thought my best offering was, you know, and 1226 01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:40,880 Speaker 2: then I would figure out what to write for my 1227 01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:44,760 Speaker 2: solo record later because time wise and everything it was, 1228 01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:48,479 Speaker 2: it wasn't as urgent as the next Dewbie Brothers record was, uh, 1229 01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:53,400 Speaker 2: scheduling standpoint and all that. So I went it, went 1230 01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:55,120 Speaker 2: ahead and cut it with the band, and I think 1231 01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:57,080 Speaker 2: that was the version. I think that really turned out 1232 01:14:57,120 --> 01:15:00,880 Speaker 2: the best of that song. And it was a you know, 1233 01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:04,519 Speaker 2: providential that I cut it with those guys. You know, 1234 01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:06,280 Speaker 2: it was meant to be a do Bee brother song. 1235 01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:10,440 Speaker 1: But what about the lyrics. The lyrics are so you know, insightful. 1236 01:15:11,479 --> 01:15:18,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, uh, well yeah, I think, uh, it's just uh 1237 01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:22,240 Speaker 2: the song for me, it was about you know, how 1238 01:15:23,080 --> 01:15:30,080 Speaker 2: we when we can't find love, we uh, we're almost 1239 01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:33,120 Speaker 2: willing to accept anything in its place, you know that 1240 01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:38,599 Speaker 2: might at least allude to love, you know. Uh and 1241 01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:41,880 Speaker 2: uh and somehow that's the best we can do for 1242 01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:48,559 Speaker 2: a while, you know. And uh uh that's pretty much 1243 01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:51,280 Speaker 2: what the lyric was about. You know, let's let's let's 1244 01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:54,920 Speaker 2: pretend that that that that's what we have here and uh, 1245 01:15:55,479 --> 01:16:01,760 Speaker 2: because otherwise what are we doing here? You know? Uh? 1246 01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:04,240 Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people experience that with 1247 01:16:04,240 --> 01:16:06,880 Speaker 2: with love and in the pursuit of love. You know, 1248 01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:09,599 Speaker 2: there's so many things that we accept that are really 1249 01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:11,680 Speaker 2: less than love. You know. There's a song on the 1250 01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:14,800 Speaker 2: new Dubi Brother's album called it Ain't the kind of Last, 1251 01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:19,559 Speaker 2: And oddly enough, that's a reoccurring theme in my Uh. 1252 01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:24,280 Speaker 2: But I just think it's it's uh, what what most 1253 01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:27,120 Speaker 2: people experience in terms of the world of in the 1254 01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:31,320 Speaker 2: world of love, of love and relationship. Uh. I think 1255 01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:33,439 Speaker 2: what it is is we have to learn to love 1256 01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:37,639 Speaker 2: ourselves first, you know, and uh and then uh that 1257 01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:42,200 Speaker 2: love we're looking for will come uh in its own time. 1258 01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:46,640 Speaker 2: But until we the journey for most of us is 1259 01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:49,599 Speaker 2: learning to love ourselves first so that we can actually 1260 01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:54,160 Speaker 2: be in a position to accept something like real love. 1261 01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:58,320 Speaker 2: You know, uh in the process. I think I've written 1262 01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:03,800 Speaker 2: about that probably far too many times, but ah, it's 1263 01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:06,880 Speaker 2: you know, it's it's definitely a universal theme, you know. 1264 01:17:11,080 --> 01:17:15,840 Speaker 1: M what's the story if I got to try? 1265 01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:22,559 Speaker 2: I wrote that with Kenny and we Kenny login, Kenny 1266 01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:30,120 Speaker 2: logans yes, and the song is pretty self expen It 1267 01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:33,080 Speaker 2: was really basically like, you know, it's so easy to 1268 01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:37,800 Speaker 2: h m hm, look at the world around us and 1269 01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:43,200 Speaker 2: lose the ability to envision what it is we all want, 1270 01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:46,840 Speaker 2: you know, Uh, right now we're going to that. You know. 1271 01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:48,439 Speaker 2: We look at the world around us, we look at 1272 01:17:48,439 --> 01:17:50,760 Speaker 2: our options, we look at what's happening with people, We 1273 01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:54,400 Speaker 2: looking at the way people are treating each other. It's 1274 01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:58,240 Speaker 2: really easy to lose faith, you know, you know, humanity, 1275 01:17:58,360 --> 01:18:06,200 Speaker 2: you know, but that gift to envision something better, you know, 1276 01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:08,599 Speaker 2: the simple fact that we really all are the same, 1277 01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:11,920 Speaker 2: if we ever get around to accepting that reality and 1278 01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:14,479 Speaker 2: that we all want the same things, and that we 1279 01:18:14,560 --> 01:18:17,040 Speaker 2: could start there at any point in time that we 1280 01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:20,439 Speaker 2: really want to, you know, uh, if we just h 1281 01:18:21,200 --> 01:18:23,920 Speaker 2: respect each other and give each other the dignity to 1282 01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:27,920 Speaker 2: be who we are and not you know, uh somehow 1283 01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:33,920 Speaker 2: try to make a society that's exclusive for for whatever reason, uh, 1284 01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:42,080 Speaker 2: whether it's religion or politics or you know, money. You know, 1285 01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:46,120 Speaker 2: it makes us want to to go that path. You 1286 01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:50,320 Speaker 2: know that. You know, if you just keep your eye 1287 01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:54,920 Speaker 2: on the ball. You know, the flame of truth can 1288 01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:58,120 Speaker 2: only burn if we keep it in our sight. You know. 1289 01:18:58,720 --> 01:19:04,040 Speaker 2: Uh it Uh it'll go out if we stop seeing it, 1290 01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:07,759 Speaker 2: you know. Uh. And uh those people who were brave 1291 01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:13,599 Speaker 2: enough two to see it in spite of what uh 1292 01:19:14,160 --> 01:19:18,200 Speaker 2: reality of reality around them was telling them, you know, uh, 1293 01:19:18,760 --> 01:19:22,280 Speaker 2: but to keep that vision in their in their mind's 1294 01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:25,760 Speaker 2: eye and in their heart. Most of them paid for 1295 01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:29,439 Speaker 2: it with their lives, if on any on any real 1296 01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:33,840 Speaker 2: and important level, Those people who meant the most, who 1297 01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:39,680 Speaker 2: made the most change, which we died for it. Uh So. 1298 01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:44,280 Speaker 2: But I think as the average person, we we have 1299 01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:47,880 Speaker 2: to we have to take that vision that they handle us. 1300 01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:50,840 Speaker 2: We have to keep it alive. You know. If that's 1301 01:19:50,880 --> 01:19:53,559 Speaker 2: all we do, we're doing the right thing, you know, 1302 01:19:56,160 --> 01:19:59,599 Speaker 2: because you know, it's it's hard for us to understand 1303 01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:02,040 Speaker 2: that we're not really here for any other reason than 1304 01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:05,639 Speaker 2: to love each other. There's no other purpose for us 1305 01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:11,360 Speaker 2: to be here, you know, ah, and to act in 1306 01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:15,920 Speaker 2: the service of each other. You know, that's a that's 1307 01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:20,320 Speaker 2: a hard thing to grasp, uh, because there's all kinds 1308 01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:27,800 Speaker 2: of uh pitfalls that make us think that some reason 1309 01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:30,600 Speaker 2: we have to be afraid of something or someone, you know, 1310 01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:35,479 Speaker 2: and that we have to defend ourselves against each other. 1311 01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:42,040 Speaker 2: You know. It's it's shaped the world we live in 1312 01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:44,360 Speaker 2: in so many ways, but the reality is still the 1313 01:20:44,400 --> 01:20:47,200 Speaker 2: same reality. We're all the same and we all want 1314 01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:49,720 Speaker 2: the same things. And the sooner we get onto the 1315 01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:53,519 Speaker 2: business of being of service to each other, the better 1316 01:20:53,560 --> 01:20:54,000 Speaker 2: off will be. 1317 01:20:56,000 --> 01:21:01,800 Speaker 1: Okay, Steely Dan stops touring, you get a call to 1318 01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:06,479 Speaker 1: be with the Doobie Brothers. They are on the road 1319 01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:11,519 Speaker 1: promoting a record. Tom Johnston has to go home. You're 1320 01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:15,280 Speaker 1: not a backup singer. Now, You're not sitting behind Walter 1321 01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:18,720 Speaker 1: and Donald. You're the front person. I mean all I know, 1322 01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:22,200 Speaker 1: I mean everyone knows the Doobie Brothers hits. I did 1323 01:21:22,240 --> 01:21:25,479 Speaker 1: not become a real fan until the spring of seventy five, 1324 01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:27,920 Speaker 1: when I live with these guys and they played well, 1325 01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:32,040 Speaker 1: what were one's vices? Are now habits at infinitum. Therefore, 1326 01:21:32,080 --> 01:21:34,200 Speaker 1: when the next album came out, I bought it the 1327 01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:36,680 Speaker 1: day came out, and I was surprised. I played it 1328 01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:39,320 Speaker 1: to death, but I was surprised. What was it like 1329 01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:42,799 Speaker 1: from your viewpoint to take the stage with the audience 1330 01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:46,400 Speaker 1: having one expectation of the Doobie Brothers and there you are. 1331 01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:55,040 Speaker 2: It was surreal, really because there was no shortage of 1332 01:21:55,280 --> 01:21:58,200 Speaker 2: you know, when I was singing one of Tom's songs, 1333 01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:05,519 Speaker 2: you know, there was you know that you know, voices 1334 01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:07,680 Speaker 2: in the audience like where's Tom? You know, you know, 1335 01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:15,040 Speaker 2: and obviously you know, uh And I don't know that 1336 01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:19,000 Speaker 2: there was any real announcements to the public about where 1337 01:22:19,120 --> 01:22:23,040 Speaker 2: Tom wasn't there, you know. Uh. I there must have been, 1338 01:22:23,080 --> 01:22:26,599 Speaker 2: you know, but not as far as in a moment 1339 01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:30,639 Speaker 2: on the show. We just you know, kind of put 1340 01:22:30,640 --> 01:22:32,760 Speaker 2: our heads down and played the songs the best we could. 1341 01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:35,000 Speaker 2: And and like you said, I was singing some of 1342 01:22:35,160 --> 01:22:37,720 Speaker 2: Tom's songs, you know, and Pat was taking the rest 1343 01:22:37,720 --> 01:22:43,280 Speaker 2: of them, you know. Uh. I don't think the audience 1344 01:22:43,320 --> 01:22:46,080 Speaker 2: has ever stopped missing Tom when he wasn't there, you know, 1345 01:22:46,120 --> 01:22:49,040 Speaker 2: I don't think it ever. It was like something that oh, well, 1346 01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:53,600 Speaker 2: you know we we miss him, but not now. It 1347 01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:58,000 Speaker 2: was ongoing, you know. Ah and to this day, you know, 1348 01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:01,320 Speaker 2: I think the best form of the Dubies to this 1349 01:23:01,479 --> 01:23:04,559 Speaker 2: day is with Tom and uh when we go out 1350 01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:07,960 Speaker 2: and play, we we enjoy a whole other kind of 1351 01:23:08,120 --> 01:23:10,720 Speaker 2: energy with the band, to the band and to our 1352 01:23:10,760 --> 01:23:17,000 Speaker 2: live performance with Tom there. You know, there's not any 1353 01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:21,200 Speaker 2: of us that would would would rather not have him there. 1354 01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:24,720 Speaker 2: You know, it's it's the best. Like I said, the 1355 01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:28,840 Speaker 2: best form of the Doobies areas for all of us. Uh. 1356 01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:31,639 Speaker 2: But we we did play you know without him for 1357 01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:37,680 Speaker 2: for could spend time there and uh that we we 1358 01:23:37,800 --> 01:23:42,280 Speaker 2: kind of closed ranks musically, you know in some ways. Uh, 1359 01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:48,040 Speaker 2: but uh it was never hard to you know, uh 1360 01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:51,960 Speaker 2: take the stage with Tom again. You know, it was 1361 01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:54,759 Speaker 2: a natural thing, you know. Uh he takes his place 1362 01:23:54,800 --> 01:23:58,920 Speaker 2: in the band rightfully. So uh uh and uh you 1363 01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:02,800 Speaker 2: know in many ways need to charge musically when he's there. 1364 01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:08,280 Speaker 2: For me, I always enjoyed playing his music, you know, 1365 01:24:09,960 --> 01:24:13,799 Speaker 2: you know, with or without Tom there, I just always 1366 01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:17,080 Speaker 2: loved the songs. You know, long train and listen to 1367 01:24:17,200 --> 01:24:22,160 Speaker 2: music as a silver I have to say, guilty pleasure. 1368 01:24:22,160 --> 01:24:24,960 Speaker 2: I enjoyed singing them too, you know. So when Tom 1369 01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:27,040 Speaker 2: would come back and I was like, Okay, well I 1370 01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:30,479 Speaker 2: don't get to sing that anymore. But but in some 1371 01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:33,080 Speaker 2: ways it was kind of fun too, because I would 1372 01:24:33,120 --> 01:24:34,880 Speaker 2: pay a little more attention to what I was playing, 1373 01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:37,080 Speaker 2: because when I'm singing and playing, I have to kind 1374 01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:39,400 Speaker 2: of dumb down my part a little bit just so 1375 01:24:39,479 --> 01:24:42,080 Speaker 2: that I pay attention to singing a song enough, you know. 1376 01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:45,960 Speaker 2: So when he would come back, I'd find, oh, I 1377 01:24:45,840 --> 01:24:48,040 Speaker 2: got to play orient on this in this section, or 1378 01:24:48,040 --> 01:24:51,880 Speaker 2: I could do this, and so it was always, you know, 1379 01:24:52,000 --> 01:24:54,760 Speaker 2: some part of that that was enjoyable too. But I 1380 01:24:55,200 --> 01:24:58,200 Speaker 2: always enjoyed the Doobie Songbook. I was missed playing it 1381 01:24:58,200 --> 01:25:01,280 Speaker 2: when I wasn't with the band. Enjoy my own songbook, 1382 01:25:01,280 --> 01:25:05,280 Speaker 2: and there's there's songs that I miss playing for my 1383 01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:11,400 Speaker 2: solo shows, but uh, but truly with the Doobies, it 1384 01:25:11,479 --> 01:25:13,040 Speaker 2: was always it was a lot of fun and a 1385 01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:16,840 Speaker 2: lot in a thrill to come back and play Blackwater 1386 01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:20,280 Speaker 2: and There's a Driven Snow, all these songs that I 1387 01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:23,880 Speaker 2: had really missed playing, you know, because a lot of 1388 01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:27,600 Speaker 2: them are are a little different, uh, more rock and 1389 01:25:27,680 --> 01:25:29,800 Speaker 2: roll than what I do on my own, you know, 1390 01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:32,000 Speaker 2: while which is a little bit more of an R 1391 01:25:32,080 --> 01:25:36,880 Speaker 2: and B and in my show, I probably do more 1392 01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:42,320 Speaker 2: ballads than this band does, you know. Uh, but you 1393 01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:44,519 Speaker 2: know it's uh. That's the biggest part of it for 1394 01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:46,360 Speaker 2: me is being a part of this band, is the 1395 01:25:46,439 --> 01:25:51,200 Speaker 2: being given the opportunity to play these this songbook for 1396 01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:54,040 Speaker 2: the audience that loves it so much. Because some of 1397 01:25:54,120 --> 01:25:56,599 Speaker 2: these people have been coming to see us for fifty years, 1398 01:25:56,680 --> 01:26:01,960 Speaker 2: you know, and we we appreciate that. You know, that's 1399 01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:04,479 Speaker 2: as much a part of the experience for us as 1400 01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:07,120 Speaker 2: it is for them. You know, I'm not sure that 1401 01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:09,040 Speaker 2: any of us would be sick to death of all 1402 01:26:09,080 --> 01:26:11,680 Speaker 2: these songs by now it wasn't for the audiences that 1403 01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:13,160 Speaker 2: we play for every night. 1404 01:26:14,640 --> 01:26:18,439 Speaker 1: Okay, you have taken it to the streets, living in 1405 01:26:18,479 --> 01:26:20,800 Speaker 1: the on the fault lines, not really going in the 1406 01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:25,639 Speaker 1: right direction commercially, minute by minute, you know, is a 1407 01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:31,800 Speaker 1: gigantic success before it's released, Do you or anybody in 1408 01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:33,200 Speaker 1: the band know what you have? 1409 01:26:35,960 --> 01:26:38,479 Speaker 2: I don't think we had a lot of confidence in that. Well. 1410 01:26:38,479 --> 01:26:42,840 Speaker 2: I should always speak for myself. I remember playing it 1411 01:26:42,880 --> 01:26:45,400 Speaker 2: for a friend of mine and who I trusted is 1412 01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:49,760 Speaker 2: musical taste. I didn't trust that much else about him, 1413 01:26:49,760 --> 01:26:54,360 Speaker 2: but I trusted in musical taste. And I knew he knew, 1414 01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:57,920 Speaker 2: you know, a good record when he heard it, you know, 1415 01:26:58,040 --> 01:27:01,639 Speaker 2: And so I had the rough mix. I said, I'm 1416 01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:03,240 Speaker 2: going to play this for you, and I was so 1417 01:27:03,360 --> 01:27:05,280 Speaker 2: desperate to play it for him. I met him while 1418 01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:07,760 Speaker 2: he was shopping somewhere. We sat in his car on 1419 01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:11,400 Speaker 2: the parking lot, and I said, you know, indulge me 1420 01:27:11,439 --> 01:27:13,000 Speaker 2: and listen to this and tell me what you think. 1421 01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:15,759 Speaker 2: Give me your honest opinion, because I think I needed 1422 01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:18,040 Speaker 2: an honest opinion. I knew if I played it for 1423 01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:20,559 Speaker 2: most other people, I knew they would even if they 1424 01:27:20,600 --> 01:27:23,559 Speaker 2: hated it, they would struggle to find some positive spin, 1425 01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:26,559 Speaker 2: you know. So I knew this guy would give me 1426 01:27:26,640 --> 01:27:32,000 Speaker 2: the unabashed opinion that he had, you know. So we 1427 01:27:32,280 --> 01:27:36,719 Speaker 2: listened to it. He kind of about halfway through the album, 1428 01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:39,240 Speaker 2: when he wasn't looking at me, I sort of suspected, 1429 01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:44,559 Speaker 2: doesn't look good. And then when the last song finished, 1430 01:27:44,560 --> 01:27:46,639 Speaker 2: he just kind of stared straight ahead for a minute. 1431 01:27:48,120 --> 01:27:53,040 Speaker 2: It looked over ringas this is a piece of shit, sorry, 1432 01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:58,120 Speaker 2: you know, And I remember what came out of my mouth. 1433 01:27:58,160 --> 01:28:00,880 Speaker 2: It was like I said something I was afraid of 1434 01:28:00,920 --> 01:28:04,400 Speaker 2: that or something. You know. It's like I co signed it, 1435 01:28:04,439 --> 01:28:07,960 Speaker 2: you know, for that moment, you know, because I didn't know. 1436 01:28:08,040 --> 01:28:09,519 Speaker 2: I didn't know if it was a good album or not. 1437 01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:11,839 Speaker 2: You know, I didn't know if this was me taking 1438 01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:15,720 Speaker 2: the band down for the last time and into the 1439 01:28:15,720 --> 01:28:19,200 Speaker 2: shitter and h never to return. You know. It was 1440 01:28:19,240 --> 01:28:22,240 Speaker 2: my biggest share in the moment. So when he responded 1441 01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:25,160 Speaker 2: that way, it was like it was like, ah see, 1442 01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:31,680 Speaker 2: I knew it, you know. Uh, And I is that 1443 01:28:31,840 --> 01:28:35,000 Speaker 2: really affected me. For the next few weeks when we 1444 01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:38,200 Speaker 2: weren't working, I was sitting around in my bathroom, you know, 1445 01:28:38,760 --> 01:28:44,360 Speaker 2: watching late night television, you know, uh, smoking pot, trying 1446 01:28:44,360 --> 01:28:47,080 Speaker 2: to forget it all, you know. You know, I was 1447 01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:49,240 Speaker 2: really in the dumps, you know, about the whole thing. 1448 01:28:50,400 --> 01:28:56,640 Speaker 2: And next thing I hear is the records come out 1449 01:28:56,680 --> 01:29:00,800 Speaker 2: of the box like like a racehorse, you know, going on. 1450 01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:04,559 Speaker 2: The charts were sold thirty thousand units the first week, 1451 01:29:04,680 --> 01:29:08,160 Speaker 2: and and I'm like, what, you know, are we talking 1452 01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:11,160 Speaker 2: about the same record here? And because even the people 1453 01:29:11,200 --> 01:29:13,400 Speaker 2: at Warner Brothers weren't that crazy about it, From what 1454 01:29:13,560 --> 01:29:16,040 Speaker 2: I understand, later on, people would tell me, Yeah, I 1455 01:29:16,080 --> 01:29:18,080 Speaker 2: was at that a at Army when they played your record. 1456 01:29:18,479 --> 01:29:25,120 Speaker 2: He was like, yeah, so it was a big surprise 1457 01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:27,439 Speaker 2: to all of us that it did so well. In fact, 1458 01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:30,439 Speaker 2: I think we were breaking up. We were at the 1459 01:29:30,479 --> 01:29:33,600 Speaker 2: end of a Japan tour. We had gotten into some 1460 01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:38,840 Speaker 2: moraw over something and decided that's it, we're breaking up, 1461 01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:41,240 Speaker 2: you know nothing, that we're not going to do this anymore. 1462 01:29:41,280 --> 01:29:43,920 Speaker 2: We're all really, really tired. This was the end of 1463 01:29:44,040 --> 01:29:48,080 Speaker 2: six months of solid touring, you know, and we're so 1464 01:29:48,160 --> 01:29:53,879 Speaker 2: we decided, okay, we're going to break up. And somehow 1465 01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:55,680 Speaker 2: on our way home, a couple of us went to 1466 01:29:55,720 --> 01:29:59,120 Speaker 2: Hawaii just for some R and R kind of you know, 1467 01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:02,439 Speaker 2: look our wounds and figure out what we're going to 1468 01:30:02,479 --> 01:30:07,880 Speaker 2: do with our lives. I got to call for pat because, yeah, 1469 01:30:08,120 --> 01:30:11,240 Speaker 2: it seems like we've got to like a record. It's 1470 01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:13,559 Speaker 2: going to be number one, you know, in a couple 1471 01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:19,040 Speaker 2: of weeks by any all accounts, and I don't know, 1472 01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:22,280 Speaker 2: maybe we should think about staying together a little longer 1473 01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:25,400 Speaker 2: and going on touring. And so that's what we decided. 1474 01:30:25,720 --> 01:30:28,120 Speaker 2: You know, how do you how do you break up 1475 01:30:28,120 --> 01:30:35,400 Speaker 2: when you have the top ten album and single and 1476 01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:37,920 Speaker 2: you know, it wasn't like we all we all weren't friends. 1477 01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:40,200 Speaker 2: We all got along. We know, if we had our arguments, 1478 01:30:40,240 --> 01:30:43,400 Speaker 2: it was just usually frustration and we think the normal 1479 01:30:43,439 --> 01:30:47,240 Speaker 2: things that bands go through. But we all really always 1480 01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:50,080 Speaker 2: were cognizant of the fact that we loved each other 1481 01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:55,400 Speaker 2: as friends first, and it was really you know, what 1482 01:30:55,560 --> 01:31:00,680 Speaker 2: was most important. You know, I think you know, uh, 1483 01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:06,040 Speaker 2: it's it's it's too easy to let heavy resentments become 1484 01:31:06,640 --> 01:31:09,920 Speaker 2: like your whole relationship with a person. And for whatever reason, 1485 01:31:09,960 --> 01:31:13,679 Speaker 2: I don't know that it was because we're such incredible people, 1486 01:31:13,760 --> 01:31:17,400 Speaker 2: but we never we never seemed to do that, you know, 1487 01:31:17,479 --> 01:31:22,240 Speaker 2: we we always stopped short of that. And if we 1488 01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:25,439 Speaker 2: and it has had a beef with each other, we 1489 01:31:25,439 --> 01:31:30,479 Speaker 2: we worked it out and we apologize, you know, and 1490 01:31:31,080 --> 01:31:33,639 Speaker 2: kind of go forward, you know from there as friends. 1491 01:31:33,680 --> 01:31:37,920 Speaker 2: You know. Uh. Again, I don't know how we accomplished 1492 01:31:37,960 --> 01:31:42,280 Speaker 2: that and any but other than it was more important 1493 01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:48,360 Speaker 2: to us just to remain friends. 1494 01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:57,320 Speaker 1: Okay, yes, you're saying back up in steely Dan, but 1495 01:31:57,479 --> 01:32:00,519 Speaker 1: that was seen as the two being guys you were 1496 01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:03,759 Speaker 1: in the Doobie Brothers. Patti is now the focus, even 1497 01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:07,599 Speaker 1: though you have tracks on the records minute by minute 1498 01:32:07,640 --> 01:32:12,400 Speaker 1: comes out. It is not only ubiquitous. You become one 1499 01:32:12,439 --> 01:32:17,440 Speaker 1: of the biggest stars in the world. You're singing backups 1500 01:32:17,479 --> 01:32:21,040 Speaker 1: on different What was that many people spin out at 1501 01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:24,120 Speaker 1: that point? What was that like for you? And how 1502 01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:27,520 Speaker 1: did you cope? 1503 01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:31,920 Speaker 2: Uh? Well, I mean that perception of you know, a 1504 01:32:31,960 --> 01:32:34,800 Speaker 2: big star. I you know, I don't know, you know, 1505 01:32:35,400 --> 01:32:37,760 Speaker 2: I had my moments, you know. I'm sure I was 1506 01:32:37,840 --> 01:32:41,599 Speaker 2: hard to live with, you know, more than once or twice, 1507 01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:49,040 Speaker 2: you know. And uh, I remember talking to a friend 1508 01:32:49,080 --> 01:32:52,040 Speaker 2: of mine, you know, and guy to grew up with, 1509 01:32:52,160 --> 01:32:56,839 Speaker 2: and he said to me, gosh, you know, we all 1510 01:32:57,600 --> 01:33:00,800 Speaker 2: we all had these aspirations, you know when we played 1511 01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:03,360 Speaker 2: together back in the day. Because he because, man, and 1512 01:33:03,439 --> 01:33:06,439 Speaker 2: you've really done it. You you know, you're you're there, 1513 01:33:06,640 --> 01:33:10,639 Speaker 2: you know. And I remember thinking how it was so 1514 01:33:10,680 --> 01:33:14,360 Speaker 2: strange to hear that, you know, because I guess I 1515 01:33:14,479 --> 01:33:17,320 Speaker 2: was so wrapped up in the day to day uh, 1516 01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:21,240 Speaker 2: frustrations of my own and feeling like, you know, a 1517 01:33:21,240 --> 01:33:23,599 Speaker 2: lot of it was that that what happens to people. 1518 01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:26,599 Speaker 2: It's never enough, you know, you're you're you're sitting around 1519 01:33:26,680 --> 01:33:29,679 Speaker 2: bitching about shit that you know you should be grateful 1520 01:33:29,720 --> 01:33:33,200 Speaker 2: for you know. Uh, you know, I was that guy, 1521 01:33:33,320 --> 01:33:35,400 Speaker 2: you know. I mean I didn't have to sign the 1522 01:33:35,439 --> 01:33:38,640 Speaker 2: sense to relax and realize that, hey, I should be 1523 01:33:38,680 --> 01:33:41,880 Speaker 2: nothing but grateful right now. I shouldn't be sitting around here, 1524 01:33:42,640 --> 01:33:46,639 Speaker 2: you know, worrying about half the crap I worry about 1525 01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:50,919 Speaker 2: because it's not important. What's important is I've been blessed, 1526 01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:53,880 Speaker 2: you know. And if I don't realize that now, I'm 1527 01:33:53,920 --> 01:34:00,160 Speaker 2: never going to realize that, you know. But uh, you know, 1528 01:34:00,240 --> 01:34:03,720 Speaker 2: I always approached the whole starting thing with a lot 1529 01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:07,160 Speaker 2: of trepidation, you know, like you know, the minute I 1530 01:34:07,200 --> 01:34:10,560 Speaker 2: walked through the door into the room, it's going to 1531 01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:12,840 Speaker 2: become when it's going to be when it becomes very 1532 01:34:12,840 --> 01:34:17,240 Speaker 2: obvious that I don't deserve this, you know. And uh 1533 01:34:17,280 --> 01:34:19,439 Speaker 2: so I was always kind of kind of you know, 1534 01:34:19,520 --> 01:34:22,519 Speaker 2: backing out of the room with it, you know, just 1535 01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:24,880 Speaker 2: for self preservation more than anything. It wasn't that I 1536 01:34:24,960 --> 01:34:27,439 Speaker 2: was modest. It was just I didn't really want you 1537 01:34:27,520 --> 01:34:29,400 Speaker 2: to see me for who I thought I really was. 1538 01:34:29,479 --> 01:34:35,360 Speaker 2: You know, I didn't you know, I didn't have the 1539 01:34:35,439 --> 01:34:37,880 Speaker 2: social prowess to be at this party. You know, That's 1540 01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:40,680 Speaker 2: kind of how I felt, you know, so when I 1541 01:34:40,760 --> 01:34:45,240 Speaker 2: went off as a solo artist h after my solo record, 1542 01:34:46,320 --> 01:34:48,680 Speaker 2: I couldn't have had a better band I had. You know, 1543 01:34:49,120 --> 01:34:52,360 Speaker 2: edro Winter was in the band, Robin Ford was playing guitar, 1544 01:34:53,320 --> 01:34:59,920 Speaker 2: George Pearley on drums, you know, just great musicians, Willie 1545 01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:08,880 Speaker 2: Inks on bass, Brian on piano. I was, you know, 1546 01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:12,519 Speaker 2: it still wasn't enough for me to feel like comfortable 1547 01:35:12,600 --> 01:35:15,280 Speaker 2: up there, you know, fronting the band, you know, being 1548 01:35:15,360 --> 01:35:20,200 Speaker 2: the guy in the spotlight. Those are really painful times 1549 01:35:20,200 --> 01:35:24,799 Speaker 2: for me just personally, you know, and I was always 1550 01:35:24,840 --> 01:35:27,120 Speaker 2: just trying to kind of hide that from everybody. You know, 1551 01:35:27,160 --> 01:35:30,320 Speaker 2: that guy, Hey, I got this, you know, but I 1552 01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:32,880 Speaker 2: don't got this, you know. At the same time, you know, 1553 01:35:34,240 --> 01:35:36,559 Speaker 2: I had to work my way through all that, and eventually, 1554 01:35:36,600 --> 01:35:38,400 Speaker 2: as a solo artist, I got to where I really 1555 01:35:38,479 --> 01:35:41,840 Speaker 2: enjoyed it. I got comfortable with it. But I didn't 1556 01:35:42,040 --> 01:35:44,720 Speaker 2: ask myself to be a star anymore. You know, I 1557 01:35:44,760 --> 01:35:48,680 Speaker 2: didn't expect myself to be a front man extravagant. You 1558 01:35:48,720 --> 01:35:53,400 Speaker 2: know that that guy was, you know, the best show 1559 01:35:53,400 --> 01:35:57,479 Speaker 2: in town. You know, I just I accepted the fact 1560 01:35:57,479 --> 01:36:01,599 Speaker 2: that I'm a pianel player, singer, I can deliver a song. Well, 1561 01:36:01,920 --> 01:36:04,800 Speaker 2: and I got a great band, and if that's what 1562 01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:07,200 Speaker 2: people came to hear, I got it covered, you know. 1563 01:36:08,240 --> 01:36:11,080 Speaker 2: And I can put together a show. I can sequence 1564 01:36:11,120 --> 01:36:13,840 Speaker 2: the songs. I can come up with the arrangements. I 1565 01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:16,160 Speaker 2: think we're best live. I can do all that stuff, 1566 01:36:16,240 --> 01:36:19,000 Speaker 2: and I can talk to the audience, you know, genuinely, 1567 01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:22,160 Speaker 2: but not try to be somebody I'm not, hopefully you know. 1568 01:36:24,000 --> 01:36:27,840 Speaker 2: And so you know, so it's kind of like the 1569 01:36:28,120 --> 01:36:30,880 Speaker 2: Perry Como of rock and roll or something, you know, 1570 01:36:31,080 --> 01:36:34,519 Speaker 2: just you know, trying to be comfortable in my own skin, 1571 01:36:34,680 --> 01:36:34,880 Speaker 2: you know. 1572 01:36:35,360 --> 01:36:38,920 Speaker 1: Okay, how much of this is raw insecurity or is 1573 01:36:38,920 --> 01:36:43,439 Speaker 1: it also leavened with social anxiety? Is it purely I 1574 01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:46,439 Speaker 1: don't want the spotlight on me, or if there's a 1575 01:36:46,520 --> 01:36:50,720 Speaker 1: room of people, I'd rather be home in the hotel room. 1576 01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:53,519 Speaker 2: I think a little bit of the letter, you know. 1577 01:36:54,560 --> 01:36:58,600 Speaker 2: I don't think I ever really felt comfortable in social situations, 1578 01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:01,760 Speaker 2: you know, even whether it's a small situation or Lord, 1579 01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:04,559 Speaker 2: I'm actually more comfortable in front of ten thousand people 1580 01:37:04,560 --> 01:37:06,800 Speaker 2: than I am in a room with five or six, 1581 01:37:06,960 --> 01:37:11,920 Speaker 2: you know, uh, because I know what I gotta do 1582 01:37:12,000 --> 01:37:13,920 Speaker 2: in front of ten thousand people. I just got to 1583 01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:16,400 Speaker 2: sing the song and play the right chords, you know, 1584 01:37:16,560 --> 01:37:21,680 Speaker 2: and I got all these other guys doing you know, 1585 01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:26,479 Speaker 2: uh the same making the same effort for the same reason. 1586 01:37:26,640 --> 01:37:29,640 Speaker 2: So uh, that's that's a lot more comfortable for me 1587 01:37:29,760 --> 01:37:36,439 Speaker 2: then uh. Uh, you know, being uh in you know, 1588 01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:38,519 Speaker 2: in the spotlight per se as we say, you know, 1589 01:37:38,880 --> 01:37:41,320 Speaker 2: and that's how people feel. I think in social situations, 1590 01:37:41,320 --> 01:37:44,120 Speaker 2: you feel like the world of this room is revolving 1591 01:37:44,120 --> 01:37:47,840 Speaker 2: around me at the moment, and usually it's couldn't referther 1592 01:37:47,920 --> 01:37:51,880 Speaker 2: from the truth. But you know, uh, that's that's part 1593 01:37:51,880 --> 01:37:54,840 Speaker 2: of having a self confidence to know that much, you know, 1594 01:37:55,280 --> 01:37:57,400 Speaker 2: to know that you're not the center of attention right now. 1595 01:37:57,479 --> 01:38:00,519 Speaker 2: You know, those of us who were in six tend 1596 01:38:00,560 --> 01:38:02,759 Speaker 2: to think we are okay. 1597 01:38:03,080 --> 01:38:05,640 Speaker 1: So with this lead date, if you're not on the 1598 01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:08,200 Speaker 1: road and you're home with your wife, your kids are 1599 01:38:08,240 --> 01:38:11,000 Speaker 1: out of the house, are you the type of person 1600 01:38:11,040 --> 01:38:15,120 Speaker 1: who's ringing up all your friends making social engagements? Are 1601 01:38:15,120 --> 01:38:17,320 Speaker 1: you the type person, Well, somebody reaches out to me, 1602 01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:20,160 Speaker 1: I'll reconnect, but more I'm doing my own thing. 1603 01:38:22,520 --> 01:38:25,360 Speaker 2: I'd rather do my own thing, you know. My wife 1604 01:38:25,400 --> 01:38:28,120 Speaker 2: and I would like to kind of covet our time 1605 01:38:28,200 --> 01:38:30,800 Speaker 2: together when I'm home, because lately it seems like I've 1606 01:38:30,800 --> 01:38:33,960 Speaker 2: been busier than ever, you know, I really there was 1607 01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:36,040 Speaker 2: a period of time just prior to this, of course 1608 01:38:36,040 --> 01:38:39,679 Speaker 2: with COVID too, but we we really enjoyed just being 1609 01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:43,439 Speaker 2: alone together, you know, and being kind of isolated to 1610 01:38:43,560 --> 01:38:45,439 Speaker 2: a fall, you know, because I think we got we 1611 01:38:45,520 --> 01:38:49,439 Speaker 2: got to be like homebodies, you know. But but I 1612 01:38:49,439 --> 01:38:53,040 Speaker 2: have always been that way. I've always been more comfortable alone, 1613 01:38:53,160 --> 01:38:56,840 Speaker 2: you know, in my own little world. And and my 1614 01:38:56,920 --> 01:39:02,360 Speaker 2: wife and I are soulmates to large degree. We you know, 1615 01:39:02,360 --> 01:39:10,240 Speaker 2: We're very comfortable with each other. You know, I would 1616 01:39:10,400 --> 01:39:14,559 Speaker 2: rather not have a lot of social obligations. It comes 1617 01:39:14,600 --> 01:39:18,360 Speaker 2: with the territory being being a musician and a celebrity 1618 01:39:18,400 --> 01:39:21,960 Speaker 2: musician or whatever. Uh So there's always something going on 1619 01:39:22,040 --> 01:39:25,160 Speaker 2: that I have to do, ah and and it's not 1620 01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:26,880 Speaker 2: that I don't enjoy them once I get there, but 1621 01:39:26,960 --> 01:39:29,000 Speaker 2: I never feel like doing that, you know. I always 1622 01:39:29,040 --> 01:39:32,960 Speaker 2: feel like, God, I'm gonna have to get ready for this. 1623 01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:34,920 Speaker 2: What's the song they want me to do? I gotta 1624 01:39:34,960 --> 01:39:37,880 Speaker 2: remember remember the lyrics, you know, all that stuff that 1625 01:39:37,960 --> 01:39:41,559 Speaker 2: you go through, and you wonder if you know Am 1626 01:39:41,560 --> 01:39:44,280 Speaker 2: I going to say something stupid backstage, you know, to 1627 01:39:44,400 --> 01:39:50,519 Speaker 2: somebody you know, but you you do it. But my brothers, 1628 01:39:50,560 --> 01:39:53,080 Speaker 2: I would rather just go down to the beach with 1629 01:39:53,120 --> 01:39:56,439 Speaker 2: the dogs and you know, get as much of that 1630 01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:58,519 Speaker 2: kind of time in as I can while I can. 1631 01:39:58,680 --> 01:39:58,920 Speaker 2: You know. 1632 01:40:00,040 --> 01:40:03,599 Speaker 1: Okay, you make a record with the woman Amy who 1633 01:40:03,720 --> 01:40:08,040 Speaker 1: is now your wife, you reconnect years later, it becomes 1634 01:40:08,040 --> 01:40:11,160 Speaker 1: a romance. We're guys, we know how this works. In 1635 01:40:11,160 --> 01:40:13,760 Speaker 1: the back of your mind, did you say, oh, that 1636 01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:17,080 Speaker 1: woman Amy, maybe she's right, I got a thing for that. 1637 01:40:17,720 --> 01:40:20,760 Speaker 1: Or was it like, holy fuck, now it's Amy and 1638 01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:22,439 Speaker 1: we're connected. What was it like? 1639 01:40:24,360 --> 01:40:26,519 Speaker 2: I think I always had a crush on her, you know, 1640 01:40:26,600 --> 01:40:30,640 Speaker 2: from the first time I met her. You know, she 1641 01:40:30,840 --> 01:40:36,960 Speaker 2: just was very special to me, you know. And it 1642 01:40:36,960 --> 01:40:39,080 Speaker 2: wasn't like I hadn't been in love before, you know, 1643 01:40:39,479 --> 01:40:41,439 Speaker 2: someone who was very special to me. You know, I 1644 01:40:41,560 --> 01:40:45,160 Speaker 2: had a crush on you know, like most guys, you know, 1645 01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:49,600 Speaker 2: but she stood out, you know to me. And I 1646 01:40:50,120 --> 01:40:52,360 Speaker 2: loved her voice too when I when I worked with her, 1647 01:40:52,880 --> 01:40:59,280 Speaker 2: she just said such a kind of a I would 1648 01:40:59,520 --> 01:41:02,160 Speaker 2: consider kind of a sexy voice to me. You know, 1649 01:41:03,080 --> 01:41:06,240 Speaker 2: she wasn't a belter you know, she wasn't like this 1650 01:41:06,520 --> 01:41:10,760 Speaker 2: powerhouse female singer. She was more of a kind of 1651 01:41:10,760 --> 01:41:15,160 Speaker 2: a folky not even met Joni Mitchell or Alison Krause 1652 01:41:15,280 --> 01:41:17,360 Speaker 2: kind of you know, where she had kind of a 1653 01:41:17,479 --> 01:41:20,920 Speaker 2: very ethereal tambre to her voice. It was, you know, 1654 01:41:22,200 --> 01:41:25,519 Speaker 2: they're feminine and beautiful, you know, and brought a certain 1655 01:41:25,600 --> 01:41:33,479 Speaker 2: kind of feeling too melody, you know. And I always 1656 01:41:33,600 --> 01:41:35,639 Speaker 2: liked that she had a yeol little too. She always 1657 01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:38,479 Speaker 2: used to kind of yield a little bit when she sang, 1658 01:41:38,520 --> 01:41:43,960 Speaker 2: and I just enjoyed her voice very much. I always 1659 01:41:43,960 --> 01:41:46,000 Speaker 2: thought if I ever produced somebody, I would like to 1660 01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:48,400 Speaker 2: do a record with her, you know, But I hadn't 1661 01:41:48,400 --> 01:41:51,240 Speaker 2: thought about it that much recently until this year of 1662 01:41:51,240 --> 01:41:53,360 Speaker 2: the night we played the Forum again in LA and 1663 01:41:53,400 --> 01:41:55,920 Speaker 2: that's actually where we got back together. We met again 1664 01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:58,640 Speaker 2: because she was in the audience and she sent a 1665 01:41:58,680 --> 01:42:01,000 Speaker 2: note up to do one of the guys it was 1666 01:42:01,080 --> 01:42:04,640 Speaker 2: mixing front of the house back to me and uh 1667 01:42:05,520 --> 01:42:07,639 Speaker 2: and uh. So I got in touch with her and 1668 01:42:07,680 --> 01:42:10,679 Speaker 2: I said, well, well, well we should definitely think about 1669 01:42:11,520 --> 01:42:14,839 Speaker 2: doing a record, you know, with you and uh And 1670 01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:16,479 Speaker 2: in the back of my mind I wanted to see 1671 01:42:16,479 --> 01:42:23,360 Speaker 2: her again. You know. So when we got together, we 1672 01:42:23,360 --> 01:42:26,280 Speaker 2: we hit it off like it was you know, we 1673 01:42:26,360 --> 01:42:30,120 Speaker 2: hadn't as if we'd been friends the whole time, you know, 1674 01:42:30,240 --> 01:42:33,080 Speaker 2: and uh, there's just something about her that it was 1675 01:42:33,080 --> 01:42:38,640 Speaker 2: was immediately engaging to me, you know. And uh, the 1676 01:42:38,720 --> 01:42:40,840 Speaker 2: record we did was fun, but it was it was 1677 01:42:41,200 --> 01:42:44,240 Speaker 2: I had trouble committing to a time frame because I 1678 01:42:44,280 --> 01:42:46,400 Speaker 2: was touring with the band, and so it took a 1679 01:42:46,400 --> 01:42:48,439 Speaker 2: better part of a couple of years to do the record. 1680 01:42:48,520 --> 01:42:51,679 Speaker 2: But every time that we got in the studio together, 1681 01:42:51,840 --> 01:42:55,320 Speaker 2: it was a real joy, you know. Uh. And Amy 1682 01:42:55,680 --> 01:42:59,120 Speaker 2: you know really uh I started to rediscover her talent, 1683 01:42:59,240 --> 01:43:01,599 Speaker 2: you know, and was as much a part of it. 1684 01:43:01,720 --> 01:43:05,120 Speaker 2: So to you know, to actually finish that record and uh, 1685 01:43:07,280 --> 01:43:10,559 Speaker 2: you know, get nominated for a Grammy with it, you know, 1686 01:43:10,600 --> 01:43:13,040 Speaker 2: it was like, you know, like the dream come true. 1687 01:43:13,120 --> 01:43:15,799 Speaker 2: You know for me, I I to be a producer 1688 01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:18,880 Speaker 2: at all would have been a dream come true. But uh, 1689 01:43:19,680 --> 01:43:22,120 Speaker 2: Patrick Henderson and I produced that record on her and 1690 01:43:22,800 --> 01:43:26,920 Speaker 2: for Capital, and so you know that was uh and 1691 01:43:27,040 --> 01:43:29,599 Speaker 2: in course of all of it, we you know, uh 1692 01:43:30,680 --> 01:43:37,800 Speaker 2: kind of uh reunited in a relationship that uh had 1693 01:43:38,080 --> 01:43:43,320 Speaker 2: you know been you know, we had met in the 1694 01:43:43,400 --> 01:43:46,800 Speaker 2: years past from time to time, and even you know, uh, 1695 01:43:47,640 --> 01:43:50,599 Speaker 2: you know, I knew that we had something between us, 1696 01:43:50,640 --> 01:43:54,080 Speaker 2: but it seemed like we always went separate ways, you know, 1697 01:43:54,520 --> 01:43:57,080 Speaker 2: and I, you know, I wasn't really at that point 1698 01:43:57,080 --> 01:44:01,320 Speaker 2: in my life a good you know, as far as 1699 01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:07,120 Speaker 2: you know, relationship material, and probably she wasn't either, you know. 1700 01:44:07,200 --> 01:44:10,240 Speaker 2: We were just both kind of pursuing our careers, living 1701 01:44:10,240 --> 01:44:16,280 Speaker 2: our lives, you know, as best we could. So now 1702 01:44:16,360 --> 01:44:20,639 Speaker 2: you know, we were working together and we were pretty 1703 01:44:20,680 --> 01:44:23,920 Speaker 2: much in constant contact again, and it was inevitable, I think, 1704 01:44:24,040 --> 01:44:27,679 Speaker 2: for us to get together and get married have kids. 1705 01:44:28,280 --> 01:44:31,040 Speaker 2: And that's the remarkable part to me. I look back 1706 01:44:31,080 --> 01:44:33,960 Speaker 2: on some of the first times I met her, thinking, 1707 01:44:34,760 --> 01:44:36,439 Speaker 2: you know, I wish you didn't have a boyfriend and 1708 01:44:36,479 --> 01:44:39,320 Speaker 2: you know, or whatever it was at the time. And 1709 01:44:41,720 --> 01:44:43,760 Speaker 2: to think that all these years later we rapsed two 1710 01:44:43,840 --> 01:44:48,200 Speaker 2: kids together and were in their thirties and been married 1711 01:44:48,200 --> 01:44:50,760 Speaker 2: for almost you know, coming up on fifty years here 1712 01:44:50,800 --> 01:44:53,599 Speaker 2: in Attle, while kind of amazing. 1713 01:44:53,680 --> 01:44:57,519 Speaker 1: You know, when she sent that note, do you think 1714 01:44:57,560 --> 01:45:00,360 Speaker 1: in the back of her mind she thought romance too. 1715 01:45:02,960 --> 01:45:06,880 Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know. I think she might 1716 01:45:06,920 --> 01:45:09,519 Speaker 2: have been thinking more of maybe maybe this guy could 1717 01:45:09,520 --> 01:45:13,280 Speaker 2: produce my next rador, but I'll take it. Whatever it was. 1718 01:45:13,320 --> 01:45:15,840 Speaker 2: It was we were we were laughing the other night 1719 01:45:15,880 --> 01:45:18,080 Speaker 2: because she was at the gig with me for him. 1720 01:45:18,800 --> 01:45:23,040 Speaker 2: This is where it all started, you know. You know, 1721 01:45:23,640 --> 01:45:25,360 Speaker 2: we hadn't thought about that in a while until we 1722 01:45:25,360 --> 01:45:27,240 Speaker 2: were kind of sitting around the back at the stage 1723 01:45:27,240 --> 01:45:29,280 Speaker 2: of the floor when she was young. And you're right, 1724 01:45:30,040 --> 01:45:33,519 Speaker 2: or I said you that note. The rest is history, 1725 01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:47,559 Speaker 2: as they say. 1726 01:45:42,560 --> 01:45:46,560 Speaker 1: Okay, a lot of the book focuses on drugs and alcohol. 1727 01:45:47,960 --> 01:45:51,280 Speaker 1: People don't see you that way. That's kind of a revelation. 1728 01:45:52,880 --> 01:45:56,320 Speaker 1: So what was that all about drinking and drugging? 1729 01:45:57,479 --> 01:45:59,280 Speaker 2: Well, I think it was about what it's about for 1730 01:45:59,360 --> 01:46:02,080 Speaker 2: most people who suffer from addiction. Uh. I mean, there's 1731 01:46:02,160 --> 01:46:05,200 Speaker 2: nuns and priests and doctors and lawyers who suffer from 1732 01:46:05,200 --> 01:46:08,840 Speaker 2: addiction who you probably wouldn't necessarily until it gets so 1733 01:46:08,960 --> 01:46:14,600 Speaker 2: bad that you know it's obvious. But the great obsession 1734 01:46:14,640 --> 01:46:19,000 Speaker 2: of every person who drinks is too to drink and 1735 01:46:19,080 --> 01:46:21,840 Speaker 2: use like other people, you know, normal people, you know, 1736 01:46:22,439 --> 01:46:26,719 Speaker 2: so you you devise all these incredible schemes and ways 1737 01:46:26,840 --> 01:46:30,360 Speaker 2: to uh hyde the tactic that's not really what's going on? 1738 01:46:31,160 --> 01:46:38,640 Speaker 2: And uh it's uh, it's alone arduous journey, you know, 1739 01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:43,960 Speaker 2: into that world of addiction. Uh. And it was a 1740 01:46:43,960 --> 01:46:49,920 Speaker 2: battle I certainly lost, you know, and it's surrendering and 1741 01:46:49,960 --> 01:46:53,599 Speaker 2: losing ultimately losing to it. I found something much better, 1742 01:46:53,640 --> 01:46:59,040 Speaker 2: you know, which was uh, you know, sobriety and uh 1743 01:46:59,280 --> 01:47:04,000 Speaker 2: living bile without any of that and uh and maybe 1744 01:47:04,080 --> 01:47:07,559 Speaker 2: understanding myself a little bit more as a spiritual being 1745 01:47:07,840 --> 01:47:11,960 Speaker 2: as a human. You know that that I entered a 1746 01:47:12,000 --> 01:47:16,599 Speaker 2: world where there's not many coincidences. Uh, when I entered 1747 01:47:17,479 --> 01:47:20,320 Speaker 2: the world sober, you know, re entered the world sober. 1748 01:47:20,360 --> 01:47:25,519 Speaker 2: I I when I'm paying attention, which isn't all that often. 1749 01:47:25,560 --> 01:47:29,040 Speaker 2: But when I am paying attention, I noticed that everything 1750 01:47:29,080 --> 01:47:32,360 Speaker 2: has a meaning. Things have meaning that I would have 1751 01:47:32,439 --> 01:47:37,120 Speaker 2: seen before. You know. Uh, acquaintances are not just acquaintances. 1752 01:47:37,200 --> 01:47:44,160 Speaker 2: They hold some uh information Hm that's there to inform 1753 01:47:44,240 --> 01:47:49,040 Speaker 2: me in a in a larger way what the hell 1754 01:47:49,040 --> 01:47:51,360 Speaker 2: I'm doing there and what life is really all about. 1755 01:47:52,400 --> 01:47:56,120 Speaker 2: I'm not much on the religion. I've never been very 1756 01:47:56,120 --> 01:48:01,040 Speaker 2: good at that, you know. My take on that is 1757 01:48:01,160 --> 01:48:06,839 Speaker 2: that's man's effort to create God in his own image. 1758 01:48:08,080 --> 01:48:10,960 Speaker 2: That's why I look about religion, you know, uh, and 1759 01:48:12,040 --> 01:48:15,479 Speaker 2: anything that co signs us hating each other is can't 1760 01:48:15,520 --> 01:48:20,920 Speaker 2: be that can't be that great anyway. So I I 1761 01:48:21,360 --> 01:48:25,640 Speaker 2: think God in my understanding today is some God that 1762 01:48:25,800 --> 01:48:29,720 Speaker 2: is I'll never understand, you know. And I'm okay with that. Uh, 1763 01:48:30,120 --> 01:48:38,320 Speaker 2: I'm okay with a consciousness being unfathomable ultimately, but that 1764 01:48:38,800 --> 01:48:44,800 Speaker 2: it does exist, and it's better for me to plug 1765 01:48:44,840 --> 01:48:47,960 Speaker 2: into that and than to be left to my own thinking. 1766 01:48:48,080 --> 01:48:50,360 Speaker 2: You know, I don't thinking never did much for me, 1767 01:48:50,560 --> 01:48:54,360 Speaker 2: you know. Ah, it was you know, just brought about 1768 01:48:54,360 --> 01:48:58,640 Speaker 2: calamity after calamity for me. But ah, when I do 1769 01:48:58,800 --> 01:49:05,280 Speaker 2: turn it over to whatever, that higher power does much 1770 01:49:05,280 --> 01:49:09,000 Speaker 2: better job of thinking than I do. I do better, 1771 01:49:09,240 --> 01:49:12,679 Speaker 2: you know. I I'm more comfortable in my own skin. 1772 01:49:13,000 --> 01:49:15,400 Speaker 2: I find that life treats me a lot better, you know. 1773 01:49:18,120 --> 01:49:20,040 Speaker 2: And that's the best I can come up with on it. 1774 01:49:20,320 --> 01:49:21,000 Speaker 2: On that subthing. 1775 01:49:22,200 --> 01:49:24,920 Speaker 1: Okay, to what degree when you look back when you 1776 01:49:24,960 --> 01:49:30,719 Speaker 1: got sober, was their carnage, missed opportunities, fuck ups, creating 1777 01:49:30,800 --> 01:49:34,400 Speaker 1: bad blood because it didn't look like that from the exterior. 1778 01:49:34,479 --> 01:49:38,040 Speaker 1: What was that a factor or was that did that happen? 1779 01:49:38,600 --> 01:49:41,400 Speaker 2: Uh? Yeah, yeah, all over the place. You know, I, 1780 01:49:43,479 --> 01:49:47,120 Speaker 2: you know, I seem to, for all my best intentions, 1781 01:49:47,280 --> 01:49:51,960 Speaker 2: leave a trail of wreckage in every turn. You know 1782 01:49:52,960 --> 01:49:57,200 Speaker 2: that I was my life had become some effort to 1783 01:49:57,200 --> 01:50:00,320 Speaker 2: stay a step ahead of you know, or h uh 1784 01:50:01,200 --> 01:50:04,439 Speaker 2: you know, uh, you know, like like a lot of people, 1785 01:50:04,920 --> 01:50:12,519 Speaker 2: you know, I've you know, I found myself doing things 1786 01:50:12,560 --> 01:50:15,280 Speaker 2: that I don't you know, I don't want to think 1787 01:50:15,320 --> 01:50:19,160 Speaker 2: that I'm that person you know or you know, uh, 1788 01:50:19,880 --> 01:50:22,640 Speaker 2: secrets I hope to cake to the grave, you know, uh, 1789 01:50:23,360 --> 01:50:27,280 Speaker 2: things that I'm not proud of myself for. You know, 1790 01:50:27,479 --> 01:50:31,320 Speaker 2: I had to come to an understanding that probably well 1791 01:50:31,360 --> 01:50:34,920 Speaker 2: a lot of people have those things. That's not just me. 1792 01:50:35,120 --> 01:50:38,720 Speaker 2: And again that that whole myopic world of oh you 1793 01:50:38,760 --> 01:50:40,640 Speaker 2: know this is all about me. It's not about me, 1794 01:50:40,760 --> 01:50:44,880 Speaker 2: it's about you know. Uh, maybe I'm not that person 1795 01:50:44,960 --> 01:50:48,479 Speaker 2: if I actually have regrets, you know, and obviously I'm 1796 01:50:48,520 --> 01:50:52,800 Speaker 2: not that person, you know. Uh uh. You know I've 1797 01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:55,360 Speaker 2: tried to make amends where I could, you know, and 1798 01:50:55,720 --> 01:50:58,519 Speaker 2: I haven't made all of them, you know, some of 1799 01:50:58,520 --> 01:51:01,920 Speaker 2: them I don't know how to make, you know. Uh uh. 1800 01:51:03,280 --> 01:51:06,040 Speaker 2: I look for the opportunity to at some point you 1801 01:51:06,080 --> 01:51:11,559 Speaker 2: know uh uh and I and I but in the 1802 01:51:11,840 --> 01:51:13,720 Speaker 2: in the meantime, I have to own it, you know. 1803 01:51:13,800 --> 01:51:18,160 Speaker 2: I have to know that, Yeah, that was me. I 1804 01:51:18,200 --> 01:51:21,040 Speaker 2: did that. You know, nobody else did that, you know, 1805 01:51:22,640 --> 01:51:29,479 Speaker 2: for whatever whatever missteps got me there, Uh, that was me, 1806 01:51:29,760 --> 01:51:33,760 Speaker 2: you know. And uh and I am sorry, you know, 1807 01:51:33,840 --> 01:51:37,680 Speaker 2: but I I you know, I have to make the 1808 01:51:38,240 --> 01:51:42,400 Speaker 2: conscious amend two be better, you know, to do, to 1809 01:51:42,439 --> 01:51:44,720 Speaker 2: do better from my honor, to be to not be 1810 01:51:44,840 --> 01:51:50,360 Speaker 2: that person, you know, from this point forward. You know, 1811 01:51:50,439 --> 01:51:53,120 Speaker 2: I think everybody has regrets, but that's not for me 1812 01:51:53,200 --> 01:51:55,280 Speaker 2: to say one way there, I know, I do, you know, 1813 01:51:55,800 --> 01:52:00,920 Speaker 2: but I uh. At the same time, I I believe 1814 01:52:01,000 --> 01:52:05,559 Speaker 2: that the most important thing I learned to do after 1815 01:52:08,080 --> 01:52:12,519 Speaker 2: in sobriety is forgiven and to learn to love myself, 1816 01:52:12,560 --> 01:52:15,280 Speaker 2: you know, so that I could actually have a relationship 1817 01:52:15,280 --> 01:52:18,360 Speaker 2: with other people that's meaningful, and that I could actually 1818 01:52:18,360 --> 01:52:21,960 Speaker 2: do the next right thing in the most spiritually meaningful way, 1819 01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:25,880 Speaker 2: you know, not just because I want to get something 1820 01:52:25,920 --> 01:52:29,920 Speaker 2: from you or some reaction from you, but because I 1821 01:52:30,000 --> 01:52:31,800 Speaker 2: because in my heart I know it's the right thing 1822 01:52:31,800 --> 01:52:33,800 Speaker 2: to do, whether I really want to do it or not, 1823 01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:39,880 Speaker 2: you know, And that you know, uh, that's that's all 1824 01:52:39,920 --> 01:52:42,120 Speaker 2: the little difficulties of life that we all share. 1825 01:52:44,520 --> 01:52:49,080 Speaker 1: Okay, there's one amazing story in the book, and I've 1826 01:52:49,120 --> 01:52:53,480 Speaker 1: even told this story to other people where your sponsor 1827 01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:56,760 Speaker 1: says that you have to make amends to someone who 1828 01:52:56,880 --> 01:53:00,080 Speaker 1: ripped you off. Can you tell that story? 1829 01:53:01,320 --> 01:53:04,479 Speaker 2: Well, to make a long story short, yeah, I was. 1830 01:53:04,600 --> 01:53:11,320 Speaker 2: It was part of the amends thing. You know, I 1831 01:53:11,360 --> 01:53:22,320 Speaker 2: didn't quite understand, you know. Uh, but you know, I 1832 01:53:22,360 --> 01:53:23,880 Speaker 2: it was easy for me to understand when I did 1833 01:53:23,920 --> 01:53:25,800 Speaker 2: something wrong and I needed to say I was sorry, 1834 01:53:25,960 --> 01:53:30,200 Speaker 2: you know, if I could the opportunity came, I could 1835 01:53:30,240 --> 01:53:35,559 Speaker 2: do that, you know. But when somebody did something to 1836 01:53:35,640 --> 01:53:40,720 Speaker 2: me that I felt righteously indignant about, you know, and 1837 01:53:40,800 --> 01:53:44,640 Speaker 2: you know that was complex, you know in terms of 1838 01:53:44,680 --> 01:53:46,960 Speaker 2: what my pardon it was, I understood it. Yeah, I 1839 01:53:47,000 --> 01:53:48,800 Speaker 2: probably have a part in this, and I need to 1840 01:53:49,080 --> 01:53:51,519 Speaker 2: be aware of that. I need to even in some 1841 01:53:51,600 --> 01:53:54,519 Speaker 2: cases apologieship. But it's easier ship than done if it's 1842 01:53:54,520 --> 01:53:57,120 Speaker 2: a situation like the one I was looking at. And 1843 01:54:00,600 --> 01:54:04,120 Speaker 2: you know what I realized in the first seconds of 1844 01:54:04,160 --> 01:54:09,080 Speaker 2: the conversation was he was kind of an awkward silence. Guys, like, 1845 01:54:09,680 --> 01:54:13,320 Speaker 2: what are we talking about? Exactly, you know, and I realized, 1846 01:54:13,640 --> 01:54:17,840 Speaker 2: this guy hasn't lost a minute's sleep over something that 1847 01:54:17,880 --> 01:54:22,639 Speaker 2: I've been chewing on for twenty years, you know, and 1848 01:54:23,000 --> 01:54:25,479 Speaker 2: drinking the poison hoping that he would die, you know, 1849 01:54:26,120 --> 01:54:31,000 Speaker 2: in my brainstorm conversations that they never really had with him. 1850 01:54:31,439 --> 01:54:34,080 Speaker 2: I was setting him straight, you know, I'm telling him 1851 01:54:34,080 --> 01:54:38,160 Speaker 2: off in any number of ways, each one better than 1852 01:54:38,160 --> 01:54:40,800 Speaker 2: the last, you know, taking it from the top over 1853 01:54:40,800 --> 01:54:46,480 Speaker 2: and over again in my brain, my little brain. And 1854 01:54:46,520 --> 01:54:49,240 Speaker 2: he hadn't even thought about it in the whole twenty 1855 01:54:49,280 --> 01:54:52,680 Speaker 2: years or whatever it was between the time that happened, 1856 01:54:53,960 --> 01:54:57,320 Speaker 2: and I realized that, you know, also that it probably 1857 01:54:57,320 --> 01:55:00,920 Speaker 2: would have never happened had I not. It had my 1858 01:55:00,960 --> 01:55:04,360 Speaker 2: fingerprints all over it. You know. I was famous, and 1859 01:55:04,840 --> 01:55:07,040 Speaker 2: I let you do something for me that I don't 1860 01:55:07,040 --> 01:55:10,880 Speaker 2: feel like I'm capable of doing. And then I love 1861 01:55:10,960 --> 01:55:14,200 Speaker 2: to criticize what a shitty job you did, uh you 1862 01:55:14,240 --> 01:55:19,320 Speaker 2: know later, you know, but I gave you total responsibility 1863 01:55:19,360 --> 01:55:24,400 Speaker 2: for it, you know, and uh you know, uh so 1864 01:55:24,600 --> 01:55:27,520 Speaker 2: I you know, it was a lot of the learning 1865 01:55:27,560 --> 01:55:32,120 Speaker 2: process about what makes me tick and how I really 1866 01:55:32,320 --> 01:55:35,440 Speaker 2: create my own problems, and basically, when it's all a 1867 01:55:35,480 --> 01:55:39,640 Speaker 2: sudden done. My biggest problem is me, not him, not 1868 01:55:39,800 --> 01:55:44,120 Speaker 2: anybody else, you know, not that person, place, or thing, 1869 01:55:44,200 --> 01:55:47,720 Speaker 2: but really how I react to it, what I do 1870 01:55:47,800 --> 01:55:56,000 Speaker 2: in the process of experiencing it, you know, And that's 1871 01:55:56,000 --> 01:55:58,920 Speaker 2: an ongoing listen. I have to learn over and over 1872 01:55:58,960 --> 01:56:01,720 Speaker 2: and over again. You know, I never gonna walk away 1873 01:56:01,720 --> 01:56:04,560 Speaker 2: with enough knowledge on that subject you to go, Okay, 1874 01:56:04,560 --> 01:56:08,040 Speaker 2: I got this, you know. Uh, I'm always going to 1875 01:56:08,080 --> 01:56:11,240 Speaker 2: be learning that lesson, you know, in life. Uh, I'm 1876 01:56:11,240 --> 01:56:14,200 Speaker 2: always going to go there first unless I can find 1877 01:56:14,200 --> 01:56:19,760 Speaker 2: the wherewithal to stop myself and h give give enough 1878 01:56:19,800 --> 01:56:22,680 Speaker 2: thought to what I'm about to do next, or say next, 1879 01:56:22,760 --> 01:56:27,640 Speaker 2: or experience next, to maybe turn it over to that 1880 01:56:27,960 --> 01:56:34,040 Speaker 2: higher power we're talking about, see what possibly uh mhm, 1881 01:56:34,720 --> 01:56:37,160 Speaker 2: God of my understanding, what would rather have me do 1882 01:56:37,360 --> 01:56:39,120 Speaker 2: than what I'm about to do? Because if I get 1883 01:56:39,120 --> 01:56:41,880 Speaker 2: in the ring with anything myself, I'm needially going to 1884 01:56:41,880 --> 01:56:47,400 Speaker 2: get knocked out. That's just h Yeah, my best thinking 1885 01:56:47,480 --> 01:56:51,320 Speaker 2: got me on a seat in that hy a meaning 1886 01:56:52,240 --> 01:56:57,440 Speaker 2: So I'm not you know, I'm not the best thing 1887 01:56:57,480 --> 01:57:00,600 Speaker 2: that ever happened to me. But not uh, nothing that 1888 01:57:01,080 --> 01:57:03,879 Speaker 2: really had anything to do with my prowess as a 1889 01:57:03,920 --> 01:57:04,520 Speaker 2: great thinker. 1890 01:57:06,720 --> 01:57:09,440 Speaker 1: Okay, how did you end up hooking up with the 1891 01:57:09,560 --> 01:57:13,040 Speaker 1: Dubies for the fifty at the Anniverse? We tour and 1892 01:57:13,080 --> 01:57:16,840 Speaker 1: we know that it's business. If they can continue to 1893 01:57:16,920 --> 01:57:19,960 Speaker 1: book dates in big venues, people still want to come. 1894 01:57:20,640 --> 01:57:21,920 Speaker 1: Is this an endless tour? 1895 01:57:23,920 --> 01:57:28,879 Speaker 2: It seems like at times, you know, we're enjoying ourselves, 1896 01:57:28,880 --> 01:57:30,920 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, like I say, ninety percent of 1897 01:57:30,960 --> 01:57:34,800 Speaker 2: it for us is is the audience that shows up, 1898 01:57:34,840 --> 01:57:38,360 Speaker 2: you know. You know, like I say, all these songs 1899 01:57:38,360 --> 01:57:40,280 Speaker 2: as much as we enjoy playing them, and we do, 1900 01:57:40,760 --> 01:57:43,120 Speaker 2: but we enjoy playing them for those people that enjoy them. 1901 01:57:43,120 --> 01:57:45,560 Speaker 2: You know, we'd probably be sick of them long ago. 1902 01:57:45,720 --> 01:57:48,040 Speaker 2: But you know, to take into the streets. I don't 1903 01:57:48,040 --> 01:57:50,120 Speaker 2: know how many times I can sing that song, But 1904 01:57:51,080 --> 01:57:53,880 Speaker 2: really what it's about in the course of an evening, 1905 01:57:53,920 --> 01:57:57,320 Speaker 2: it's when we hit this intro or the song and 1906 01:57:57,360 --> 01:58:04,240 Speaker 2: the crowd you know, reacts, you know, positively and with 1907 01:58:04,240 --> 01:58:09,280 Speaker 2: with with excitement. Then that's what the song is. And 1908 01:58:09,320 --> 01:58:12,760 Speaker 2: that's it's that moment, It's that communion with the audience. 1909 01:58:13,840 --> 01:58:16,440 Speaker 2: That what it's all about. It's not the song anymore, 1910 01:58:16,520 --> 01:58:19,760 Speaker 2: it's it's just the experience, you know, of playing it 1911 01:58:19,800 --> 01:58:21,720 Speaker 2: for people who want to hear it, you know, And 1912 01:58:24,440 --> 01:58:27,840 Speaker 2: as long as that's happening, I know there's any limit 1913 01:58:27,920 --> 01:58:30,600 Speaker 2: to what how long we would be doing this sort 1914 01:58:30,640 --> 01:58:36,320 Speaker 2: of health reasons, you know. But we're having a pretty 1915 01:58:36,360 --> 01:58:40,440 Speaker 2: good time of it right now. And like I say, 1916 01:58:40,960 --> 01:58:43,680 Speaker 2: we're no one's more amazed than we are that we're 1917 01:58:43,760 --> 01:58:48,440 Speaker 2: still on backstage stays that size playing for people in 1918 01:58:48,640 --> 01:58:53,040 Speaker 2: the venues. It big. You know, I would have not 1919 01:58:53,240 --> 01:58:57,880 Speaker 2: given you any odds on that happening fifty years ago, 1920 01:58:58,000 --> 01:59:03,040 Speaker 2: you know, And we were just young enough back then 1921 01:59:03,080 --> 01:59:06,400 Speaker 2: to not be thinking too much about what we would 1922 01:59:06,440 --> 01:59:08,040 Speaker 2: be doing at this point in our lives. You know, 1923 01:59:09,040 --> 01:59:11,680 Speaker 2: we're very lucky to be doing this at this point 1924 01:59:11,680 --> 01:59:15,920 Speaker 2: in our lives. Uh, you know, even with the in 1925 01:59:16,000 --> 01:59:19,280 Speaker 2: terms of like were some gags with the Eagles and 1926 01:59:19,400 --> 01:59:21,240 Speaker 2: all these guys that we knew in the seventies that 1927 01:59:21,280 --> 01:59:23,360 Speaker 2: we played with that we made records at the same time, 1928 01:59:24,760 --> 01:59:28,080 Speaker 2: Donald and Walter, Uh, you know, I worked with them 1929 01:59:28,520 --> 01:59:32,680 Speaker 2: up until Walter's passing, you know, And I see Donald 1930 01:59:32,760 --> 01:59:36,040 Speaker 2: talk to Donald, and none of us would have ever 1931 01:59:36,240 --> 01:59:39,720 Speaker 2: thought that we'd be taking the stage together in our seventies, 1932 01:59:39,760 --> 01:59:42,440 Speaker 2: you know, I just wouldn't have been anything any of 1933 01:59:42,480 --> 01:59:44,960 Speaker 2: us would have bet on, you know. But you know, 1934 01:59:44,960 --> 01:59:45,520 Speaker 2: here we are. 1935 01:59:47,480 --> 01:59:50,760 Speaker 1: So do you have a hankering? A lot of times 1936 01:59:50,760 --> 01:59:53,280 Speaker 1: people say I'm doing this, but I have a hankering 1937 01:59:53,360 --> 01:59:56,520 Speaker 1: to get back to my solo career. Is that going 1938 01:59:56,560 --> 01:59:58,520 Speaker 1: through your brain or are you saying this is good 1939 01:59:58,560 --> 02:00:00,000 Speaker 1: as long as this is good, all right? 1940 02:00:00,040 --> 02:00:04,640 Speaker 2: I don't really have a hankering to get back to 1941 02:00:04,680 --> 02:00:07,920 Speaker 2: my solo career. I had a great band when I 1942 02:00:07,920 --> 02:00:09,720 Speaker 2: played with the guys, and I would love to play 1943 02:00:09,720 --> 02:00:12,320 Speaker 2: with them again, you know, just because I love those 1944 02:00:12,360 --> 02:00:14,720 Speaker 2: guys that I love playing with them and I missed 1945 02:00:14,760 --> 02:00:17,280 Speaker 2: playing some of those songs. But it's not like a 1946 02:00:17,280 --> 02:00:20,520 Speaker 2: hankering to do to be a solo artist again. You know. 1947 02:00:21,000 --> 02:00:24,040 Speaker 2: I really very much enjoy being a Dobie brother. I 1948 02:00:24,040 --> 02:00:27,960 Speaker 2: always did, you know, and it's enough for me, you know. 1949 02:00:29,760 --> 02:00:31,880 Speaker 2: But you know, when there are moments when I do 1950 02:00:32,000 --> 02:00:35,240 Speaker 2: go out, I for one off, I just did a 1951 02:00:35,240 --> 02:00:40,839 Speaker 2: cruise and it was great, wonderful cruise with Patty LaBelle 1952 02:00:40,880 --> 02:00:46,360 Speaker 2: and Marcus Miller band and a great group of musicians. 1953 02:00:46,880 --> 02:00:49,360 Speaker 2: And I was doing a lot of the material that 1954 02:00:49,440 --> 02:00:52,560 Speaker 2: I did with my solo band and it was wonderful 1955 02:00:52,600 --> 02:00:56,920 Speaker 2: to do those songs again. But again, for some reason, 1956 02:00:58,400 --> 02:01:05,520 Speaker 2: I'm fulfilled overall sense of fulfillment, uh, just being back 1957 02:01:05,560 --> 02:01:07,720 Speaker 2: with the Doobies, you know, and playing with Tom and 1958 02:01:07,760 --> 02:01:12,200 Speaker 2: Patt and John McFee and all the guys in the band, Mark, 1959 02:01:12,920 --> 02:01:18,520 Speaker 2: John Ed and Mark and uh, you know, I feel 1960 02:01:19,320 --> 02:01:23,440 Speaker 2: extremely lucky to be on stage with these guys, musicians 1961 02:01:23,440 --> 02:01:26,160 Speaker 2: of this caliber and people of this character. You know. 1962 02:01:27,160 --> 02:01:29,800 Speaker 2: There's just nothing better than that than hitting the road. 1963 02:01:29,840 --> 02:01:33,680 Speaker 2: And you know, the only thing when you complain about 1964 02:01:33,800 --> 02:01:36,040 Speaker 2: is that we wish we were playing more. You know, 1965 02:01:37,240 --> 02:01:40,160 Speaker 2: we have a pretty much easier schedule than the old days. 1966 02:01:40,160 --> 02:01:43,200 Speaker 2: We don't play you know, four nights in a row anymore, 1967 02:01:43,240 --> 02:01:45,680 Speaker 2: you know, And there was something about that that I 1968 02:01:45,760 --> 02:01:51,920 Speaker 2: really liked. There was some kind of a you know, 1969 02:01:52,800 --> 02:01:56,800 Speaker 2: it lent itself to the development, you know as a band. 1970 02:01:56,960 --> 02:02:00,320 Speaker 2: You know, when we played every night, you know, we 1971 02:02:00,360 --> 02:02:03,160 Speaker 2: would actually listen to our show the night before on 1972 02:02:03,200 --> 02:02:06,680 Speaker 2: the on the plane the next day because we were 1973 02:02:06,720 --> 02:02:09,320 Speaker 2: interested in just to hear how we were doing at 1974 02:02:09,320 --> 02:02:12,480 Speaker 2: this point, you know. And uh, you know, I think 1975 02:02:12,520 --> 02:02:14,680 Speaker 2: I think we all miss that a little bit. We 1976 02:02:14,760 --> 02:02:19,280 Speaker 2: missed that, you know, getting out there playing six five 1977 02:02:19,360 --> 02:02:24,360 Speaker 2: or six in a row because you your whole take on, 1978 02:02:24,360 --> 02:02:27,760 Speaker 2: on your perspective on what you do develops with that. 1979 02:02:27,880 --> 02:02:32,200 Speaker 2: You know. And and now we're at that age where 1980 02:02:32,240 --> 02:02:34,720 Speaker 2: if we take a week off, we've all pretty much 1981 02:02:34,720 --> 02:02:38,360 Speaker 2: forgotten the song altogether. And you know, we're all at 1982 02:02:38,360 --> 02:02:41,040 Speaker 2: home woodshed and trying to remember the chords. And you know, 1983 02:02:41,680 --> 02:02:43,880 Speaker 2: uh that I you know, I don't have quite the 1984 02:02:43,920 --> 02:02:48,200 Speaker 2: memory I used to have, so uh, it's it's nice 1985 02:02:48,240 --> 02:02:51,160 Speaker 2: to get back together and rehearse, and you know, I 1986 02:02:51,240 --> 02:02:54,120 Speaker 2: have a reason to again. It said, if I have 1987 02:02:54,160 --> 02:02:57,200 Speaker 2: a reason to play music, that's what it takes for me. 1988 02:02:57,280 --> 02:02:59,760 Speaker 2: I don't do so well in my idle time. 1989 02:03:02,280 --> 02:03:04,920 Speaker 1: Okay, Michael, I want to thank you so much for 1990 02:03:04,960 --> 02:03:07,720 Speaker 1: sharing your inner life and thoughts with my audience. 1991 02:03:07,920 --> 02:03:09,840 Speaker 2: Oh, thank yous appreciate it so much. 1992 02:03:10,880 --> 02:03:14,360 Speaker 1: But I will say this, if you're interested in any 1993 02:03:14,440 --> 02:03:17,360 Speaker 1: of this at all, the book really goes into depth. 1994 02:03:18,080 --> 02:03:21,040 Speaker 1: You know, it starts off with Saint Louis and it 1995 02:03:21,080 --> 02:03:24,960 Speaker 1: goes through every step. You know, the dark days in Hollywood, 1996 02:03:25,120 --> 02:03:28,640 Speaker 1: the family stuff, the drug stuff. Really get to know 1997 02:03:28,680 --> 02:03:32,520 Speaker 1: who Michael is. And you've learned some in this podcast, 1998 02:03:32,600 --> 02:03:36,920 Speaker 1: but there's so much more. In any event, Thank you Michael. 1999 02:03:37,320 --> 02:03:39,880 Speaker 1: Until next time, This is Bob Left, SATs 2000 02:04:00,280 --> 02:04:00,480 Speaker 2: Six