1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. This October marks the 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: fiftieth anniversary of the am Kapoor War, a conflict that 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: has shaped the modern Middle East. The war was a 4 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: trauma for Israel, a dangerous superpower showdown, and, following the 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: Arab oil embargo, a pivotal reordering of the global economic order. 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: The Jewish state came shockingly close to defeat After the war, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: Prime Minister Golda Mayer, Defense Minister moshid Ian, and the 8 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: senior leadership of the nation were forced to resign in disgrace. 9 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: In the new book Eighteen Days in October, The am 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: Kipur War and How It created the Modern Middle East, 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: Odi Kaufman describes how a straight line leads from the 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: battlefields of nineteen seventy three to the Camp David Accords 13 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy eight and all the treaties since. Here 14 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: to discuss his new book on the am Kapoor War 15 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: and the current situation in Israel, I'm really pleased to 16 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: welcome my guest, Hori Kaufman. Hory, welcome, Thank you for 17 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: joining me. 18 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. 19 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: Now I understand that this book was a passion project 20 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: for you. You spent over twenty years visiting the battlefields, speaking 21 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: to participants, and reviewing literally thousands of pages of Matrul. 22 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about the process of writing 23 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: this book. 24 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 2: So I started it, as you just mentioned, a little 25 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 2: over twenty years ago. Fortunately I have a day job, 26 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 2: so I was able to hire a team of researchers 27 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 2: around the world. To do this properly. You really need 28 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: to speak five languages Hebrew in English. I speak those two, 29 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: but also Arabic, Russian, and even German because the East 30 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: German Stazi had a large press in Syria, and information 31 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: about Syria is really really hard to come by. It's 32 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 2: not quite North Korea, but it's pretty darn close to it. 33 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: So obviously there's no one on earth that speaks all 34 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 2: those languages. So I had to hire researchers in Russia. 35 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 2: I had one in Ukraine, one in Germany, two in Israel, 36 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 2: one or two in America at various times. It's a 37 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: bear of a topic. It's very, very complicated, but it 38 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: is incredibly fascinating. It exceeds anything a novelist could have 39 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 2: ever come up with. If I'd have brought it to 40 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 2: my editor as a novel she'd have kicked me down 41 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: the stairs. Nobody could believe that anything as crazy as 42 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,679 Speaker 2: this could happen, But it happened. And it's got quite 43 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 2: a cast of characters as well. 44 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: What led you to this passion? I mean, when you 45 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: talk about a twenty year project, that's really a commitment. 46 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: It is. My wife would have rather I probably do 47 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: other things, but you know, I like telling a good story, 48 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: and this is one for the ages. It's got it all. 49 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: It's got the swashbuckling General Ariel Sharon. It's got the 50 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 2: high level spy, a man named Ashraf Marwan, who was 51 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: Nasser's son in law. He was also on warse Dot's 52 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: right hand man. We now know he was selling secrets 53 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: to the Israelis. Above it all, you've got gold in 54 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 2: my ear. The first woman in the history of the 55 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: world to rise to lead a nation despite not being 56 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: related to any male politician or king. She did it 57 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: on her own. She made some unbelievable decisions. It's got 58 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: the suspense. It's just got it all again. If I 59 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: brought this to my editor as a novel, nobody would 60 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: have ever believed something like this could happen. 61 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: One of the things that makes this book different is 62 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: that he had a great deal of newly declassified information. 63 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: How did that change what you originally thought about the war? 64 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 3: So changed it in a number of ways. 65 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: First of all, we now know how Golda got fooled. 66 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: It happened largely because one of her generals actually lied 67 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 2: to her. We now know that the Israelis had a 68 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 2: group of listening devices deep inside Egypt. They were known 69 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 2: as the Extraordinary Measures. The catch was the Extraordinary Measures 70 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: ran on a battery, and with the technology of the day, 71 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: the battery would drain very quickly. Once it drained, you 72 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 2: needed to send someone on a very dangerous mission to 73 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: swap it out. So the Extraordinary Measures were typically turned off. 74 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: The Israelis only turned them on on circumstances that were 75 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,119 Speaker 2: well extraordinary. And when they got to October of nineteen 76 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 2: seventy three, the general who was that of military intelligence, 77 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 2: made by the name of Eliza Era was actually still alive. 78 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 2: He's almost one hundred. He told Golda that he turned 79 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 2: on the extraordinary Measures and that everything was fine, when 80 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 2: in reality had not turned them on. So that's how 81 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: she got fooled. What it really allowed me to understand 82 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 2: for the first time was the unbelievable decision making that 83 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 2: was going on in Washington, in Israel, and even to 84 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: a certain degree in the Arab countries. 85 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: That in Moscow there's both a battlefield story and a 86 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: diplomatic story. They're sort of parallel, it seems to me, 87 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: and that the Israelis were surprised in the battlefield and 88 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,559 Speaker 1: potentially overwhelmed except for diplomacy. We recently did a series 89 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: called Journey to America and we interviewed Henry Kissinger for it, 90 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: and Kissinger was talking about how really how dangerous this 91 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: period was. Can you talk about that from a sort 92 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: of global standpoint of this thing, between the Russian support 93 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: for the Arab at Salt and the American support for Israel, 94 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: we really kind of crept pretty close to a major war. 95 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 2: Well, we came close enough. I mean, you could debate 96 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: how close we came. But you know, in the Cold War, 97 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 2: everyone's assumption was that if there were a World War three, 98 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 2: it was not going to be like a World War 99 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: II situation where one major power just brazenly invaded another, 100 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 2: but rather a World War One situation where some regional 101 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: conflict would because of all the interlocking treaties, would spin 102 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: out of control into a global conflict, and in gaming 103 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,559 Speaker 2: this out, all the war planners looked at the Middle 104 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 2: East as the place that would stand in for the 105 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 2: Balkans in World War One, and that's kind of what happened. 106 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 2: Kissinger went to Moscow on October the twenty second. He 107 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: negotiated a ceasefire above the heads of the Israelis. I 108 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 2: think the biggest mistake of his career, I could even say, 109 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 2: was that as part of that, he did not ask 110 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: that the Arabs lift the oil embargo. The Arabs imposed 111 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: the oil embargo on October the twentieth. Two days later 112 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 2: he was in Moscow. The Egyptian Army was about to 113 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: be surrounded. The Soviets wanted to rescue them. Kissinger wanted 114 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 2: to as well, because he didn't want American oil interests 115 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: to be harmed. But that was the moment, when he 116 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 2: held all the cards. He could have just said, I'll 117 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 2: rescue the Egyptian Army, got to lift the boycott. He 118 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 2: didn't do that. I think he made a bad mistake. 119 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 2: But then after that, the Israelis defied everyone and surrounded 120 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 2: the Egyptian Third Army, and that's when we came pretty 121 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:51,799 Speaker 2: close to World War three? 122 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: How close do you think we really were? 123 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: Well, we were in def Con three and deaf Con 124 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 2: three obviously, you know you got two more levels before 125 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 2: you're at war, and we were in Defcon three in 126 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: Vietnam just as an ordinary background state of readiness. So 127 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 2: I don't think it was anywhere near as dangerous as 128 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: the Cuban missile crisis was. The Cuban missile crisis Robert 129 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 2: McNamara once gave an interview and he held his two fingers, 130 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: you know, less than an inch apart in saying we 131 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 2: came this close to World War three. I don't think 132 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 2: it was anything like that. The both sides wanted to 133 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 2: de escalate. Nobody wanted to fight World War three over Egypt. 134 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: But it was dangerous enough. It's easy to know how 135 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 2: these things start. You never know how they spin out 136 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: of control. It was dangerous enough. 137 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: You make a point which I think was very relevant 138 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: to what happened recently with the Hamas attack and sometimes 139 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: what happens to our own folks, and that is that 140 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: the intelligence community had developed what they called the concept, 141 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: and they interpreted everything back into their concept, rather than 142 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: changing the concept to fit the facts. Can you sort 143 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: of elaborate in that because I think it's very relevant 144 00:07:57,960 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: to what just happened in the last few weeks. 145 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 3: It certainly is. 146 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: The Israelis were, as I said, getting secrets from a 147 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: manne Maschrofmarwan. 148 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 3: We now know this. 149 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: One of the things he told them was something that 150 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 2: took on a life of its own. It became known 151 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 2: inside Israel as the Conceptsia or the concept The Conceptsia 152 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 2: said Egypt would never go to war until it had 153 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 2: fighter jets that could contend with the Israeli Air Force. Then, 154 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 2: as today, the Israeli Air Force is the decisive factor 155 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 2: on every Middle Eastern battlefield. So Israelis looked at that, 156 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 2: they listened to the Conceptsia, and they eventually found out 157 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: that anwar sadata Conceptsia is of his own. In more 158 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: recent times, on October the seventh, the Israelis had a 159 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 2: different Conceptsia. 160 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 3: The Conceptsia was Hamas would not go. 161 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: To all out war because Palestinians from Gaza depend on 162 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 2: Israel economically. 163 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 3: Israel, because it is frankly a light. 164 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: On two nations, is the only country in the history 165 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 2: of the world to supply its enemies in time of war, 166 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 2: Israel has been supplying Gaza with water, food, electricity, fuel 167 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: for a power plant. Almost twenty thousand Gaza Palestinians have 168 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 2: a license to work inside Israel, which is unheard of 169 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: in the annals of warfare. Would be as if Germans 170 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: had the right to work in America during World War 171 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 2: Two to pay for supplies we sent to Berlin. 172 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,599 Speaker 3: But the Israelis did this again partly because. 173 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: They really are a light onto nations, but also because 174 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 2: the thinking was it would give Hamas an incentive not 175 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 2: to go to all out war. Well, the CONCEMPTSUA just 176 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 2: blew up. Kamas decided to go to all out war anyway. 177 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: Nobody saw it coming, and now Hamas is effectively cut 178 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: off its economic lifeline, the only one that it has. 179 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: So from the standpoint of the yam Kapur war, but 180 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: Saddan actually had a purposeful strategy that was different than 181 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: anybody else expected. Can you talk about what his assumptions 182 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: were and why from his standpoint the war made sense. 183 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: The war made a lot of sense from his standpoint, 184 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 2: and Sirius for one very simple reason, Egypt in Syria 185 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 2: wanted to get back. In Egypt's case, the Sinai Peninsula 186 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 2: in Syria's case, the Goal on Heights. They wanted to 187 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: achieve that without giving a peace treaty. That was the 188 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,239 Speaker 2: core problem. Israel offered to withdraw from Sinai and offered 189 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 2: to withdraw from the Goal on Heights, but only in 190 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: return for a peace treaty, and that's where the battle 191 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 2: lines were drawn. Saddat's military plan was absolutely brilliant. He 192 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: had a really good general meant by the name of 193 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 2: Sad Shasli, probably still the best general the Israelis have 194 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 2: ever faced. They took a sober cold look at their 195 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 2: strengths and Israel's weaknesses, but their own weaknesses in Israel's strengths, 196 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: and they devised a military plan that I would say 197 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 2: was similar to what Germany tried to do in World 198 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 2: War One in the Battle of Air Dunn. Conquer a 199 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 2: small piece of land, get the other side to take 200 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: terrible casualties, and then on the strength of that fighting 201 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 2: a war of attrition, impose a peace plan. Now you 202 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 2: are correct. Syria thought that Egypt was going to fight 203 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,719 Speaker 2: all the way to the international border, which would take 204 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 2: pressure off of them, the Syrians. But then the Egyptians 205 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,599 Speaker 2: didn't do that. They only advanced a few miles and 206 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: they stopped cold in the desert, leaving the Israelis with 207 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 2: a lot of leeway to crush Syria, which is exactly 208 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: what they did. Osad, who was then Khafaz Alasa, the 209 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 2: father of bisharas Side, the current president of Syria, was livid, 210 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 2: but there was really nothing he could do about it. 211 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: And Sad Shasli said in his memoir that they lied. 212 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 2: The Egyptians lied to the Syrians, and that it sickened 213 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 2: him to do that, but that they felt they had 214 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 2: no choice. 215 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: Do you think in retrospect the Syrians would have been 216 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: better off to just stayed out. 217 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 2: In retrospect, they both lost, so they both would have 218 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 2: been better off just taking the deal, which is what 219 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: Egypt did. After the war, both sides were faced with 220 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 2: a very stark choice make pace with losing the nineteen 221 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 2: sixty seven lands or made peace with Israel. Sadat made 222 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: peace with Israel. He got back the Sinai Peninsula. Syria 223 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: refused to make peace with Israel. So they lost the 224 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 2: goal on Heights, and I think it can now be said, 225 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 2: within your certainty that they're never going to get it back. 226 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 2: So choosing peace over war probably would have been the 227 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 2: way to go. But I could say the same thing 228 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 2: about Hamas, But they're not choosing peace over war. They'd 229 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 2: rather commit economic suicide. 230 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: Well, in the case of Hamas, they have an existential 231 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: goal of annihilating the Jewish population. Anything short of that 232 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: for Hamas is in fact a failure. Am I missing something? 233 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 2: You're missing nothing, Although I could see where people would 234 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 2: be fooled because if you read mainstream media, particularly liberal media, 235 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 2: you would be left with the impression that the whole 236 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 2: problem is the settlements. The whole problem is the occupation. 237 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 2: Get rid of the settlements, get rid of the so 238 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 2: called occupation, and you will have peace. Israel well dismantled. 239 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 2: Every settlement in Gaza. Israel withdrew completely. There is no 240 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 2: occupation in Gaza. This was confirmed by the United Nation, 241 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: which is not exactly known for its pro Israel sympathies. 242 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 2: So why is Kamas fighting? If you want to know 243 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 2: is a real simple way to find out. Go on Google, 244 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: type in Jews pigs and monkeys or Palestine pigs and monkeys, 245 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 2: and just scroll with your mouse and you will see 246 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: literally dozens of quotes from Arab leaders great and small, 247 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 2: including the current head of Gaza, a mass murdering psychopath 248 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 2: named Yaja Sinoir. They regularly refer to Jessus, pigs and 249 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 2: monkeys and say they want to commit genocide like Hitler. 250 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 2: That is the core problem. 251 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: Hi, this is NEWT and my new book, March the Majority, 252 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: the real story of the Republican Revolution. I offer strategies 253 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: and insights for everyday citizens and for season politicians. It's 254 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: both a guide for political success and for winning back 255 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: the Majority in twenty twenty four. March to the Majority 256 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: outlines the sixteen year campaign to write the Contract with America. 257 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: Explains how we elected the first Republican House majority in 258 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: forty years in how we worked with President Bill Clinton 259 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: to pass major reforms, including four consecutive balanced budgets. March 260 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: to the Majority tells the behind the scenes story of 261 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: how we got it done. Here's a special offer for 262 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: my podcast listeners. You can order March the Majority right 263 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: now at gingrishtree sixty dot com slash book and it'll 264 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: be shipped directly to you. Don't miss out on the 265 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: special offer. Go to gingrishtree sixty dot com slash book 266 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,479 Speaker 1: and order your copy now. Order it today at gingishtree 267 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash book, we have a project called 268 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: His New Majority Project. We take polls and do focus groups, 269 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: and I actually want to take some of the more 270 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: clearer statements, like, for example, not a single Jew will 271 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: remain and ask regular Americans what do you think this means? 272 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a little bit like the Iranians who 273 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: chant death to America and death to Israel and saying, gee, 274 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: what do you think they're signaling when they say that? 275 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: Because it strikes me as a historian that when fanatics 276 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: say things like that, it's pretty useful to assume they 277 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: mean it. 278 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, people disclaim mankamff and they found out that yet 279 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 2: he actually meant it. 280 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 3: CAMAS has done everything they. 281 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 2: Can to convince us that they mean exactly what they say, 282 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 2: and they say what they mean. I think the core 283 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: problem is what psychologists have long identified as something called 284 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: cognitive dissonance, This notion that when people have deeply held 285 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 2: beliefs and then facts pop up that contradict those beliefs, 286 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 2: people change the facts, they don't change the beliefs. If 287 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: you want a classic example of that, one need only 288 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 2: open up the pages of the New York times to 289 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 2: read an endless stream of cognitive dissonance related to the 290 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 2: Palestinians and the Israelis, And I'd love to give you 291 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 2: some examples. Good, feel free, Thank you so much. 292 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 3: You'd never ask so. 293 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: After Israel withdrew from Gaza, they no longer were an 294 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 2: occupying power. Now, when you are an occupying power under 295 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: the Geneva Convention, you are tasked with responsibility for the health, 296 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 2: safety and well being of the civilian population. And that 297 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: is something Israel did and actually did admirably. In fact, 298 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 2: per capita income in both the West Bank, what I 299 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 2: prefer to call Judaea, Samaria, and Gaza went up by 300 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 2: a factor of three just between nineteen sixty seven, and 301 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 2: I think it was nineteen ninety three was the study 302 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 2: I saw. So they were all three times better off. 303 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: But once Israel pulled out of Gaza, is no longer 304 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 2: had those responsibilities. It was not an occupier unless you 305 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 2: read the New York Times which said on September the twentieth, 306 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, and now I'm reading under international 307 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 2: by the way, this is on page A twelve. Anyone 308 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: can look it up. Under international law, Israel is considered 309 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 2: an occupying power in Gaza, even though it has removed 310 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 2: its troops and settlers from the territory. Now, I would 311 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 2: be fascinating to know which international law that one is, 312 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 2: the one that says you are an occupier even if 313 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 2: you aren't there. This is what I like to call 314 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 2: grouchhow Mar's journalism. If you remember old Grout Show, we 315 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 2: had a joke, you remember the nose, the glasses, the 316 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 2: wiggling cigar, and he'd say, who are you going to believe? 317 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 2: Near your own eyes? And the New York Times follow 318 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 2: that up by saying that Israel is imposing a blockade 319 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 2: on Gaza in two instances, on October thirty one, twenty nineteen, 320 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 2: page A eight, and on. 321 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 3: March nineteen, twenty nineteen, page A eleven. 322 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 2: They called it under a code block who a draconian blockade. 323 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 2: That's one heck of a blockade. So now let me 324 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 2: tell you about the draconian blockade. In twenty twenty two, 325 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 2: the most recent year for which we have statistics. It 326 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 2: Israeli human rights organization called dsha It's spelled Gisha. Anyone 327 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 2: can go on their website Dshaza Hebrew word it means access. 328 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 2: Gishah said that Israel sent over sixty seven thousand trucks 329 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 2: filled with supplies into Gaza, food, clothing, whatever. Israel supplied 330 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 2: Gaza with five point seven billion gallons of water. Without 331 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 2: that water, by the way, Goslins would die of thirst. 332 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 2: They also supplied Gaza with two thirds of their electricity 333 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: plus fuel to power a power plant in Gaza for 334 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 2: the other third. Now, to pay for all this, Israel 335 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 2: gave gozen Palestindians, twenty thousand of them licensed to work 336 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: in Israel and bring home a paycheck to pay for this. 337 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: This is the draconian blockade of which the New York 338 00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 2: Times speaks. 339 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 3: But wait, we're not done. 340 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 2: The draconian blockade is the cause of the suffering in Gaza, 341 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 2: says the New York Times, because on April the twenty first, 342 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, page A four, I'm quoting it, says quote, 343 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 2: the sixteen year blockade of Gaza by Israel in Egypt 344 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 2: has undermined living conditions of more than two million Palestinians 345 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: and led to a nearly fifty percent unemployment rate that 346 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: is among the highest in the world. So, according to 347 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 2: The New York Times, the blockade, which isn't really a 348 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: blockade is what's causing suffering in Gaza, not that Gazen 349 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 2: Palestinians refused to sign a peace treaty, or that their leader, 350 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 2: yaj Sinoire is a mass murdering psychopath who was convicted 351 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 2: an Israeli court of murdering five people two of his 352 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: bare hands, and Israeli prosecutor said he was involved in 353 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 2: the murder of over twenty others. But they figured after 354 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 2: they had five consecutive life sentences, well why bother to 355 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 2: prosecute him some more. He got freed in the Gilad 356 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 2: Shalit prisoners swap in twenty eleven. That is why he 357 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 2: is the leader of God. 358 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: And that prisoner brings us to why they seized all 359 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: these hostages. Don't you think their going part is to 360 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: force the release of all of the various Hamas prisoners 361 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: currently in Israeli prisons. 362 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 3: I think it's even more than that. 363 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 2: I think that was if you will, the conceptsia, the 364 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:23,719 Speaker 2: flawed core assumption that Hamas used in going into battle 365 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 2: in the first place. Make no mistake about it, Kamas 366 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 2: can't possibly win this war. They have now cut off 367 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: their economic lifeline. Why would they do this? I think 368 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 2: the answer is yeah, yes, sin War and a number 369 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 2: of the other senior Kamas people. It's a guy named 370 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 2: Ali Kafi who was recently killed by the Israelis and 371 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: one of these surgical air strikes that he too was 372 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 2: freed in the Gilat Shalit prisoner swap that occurred in 373 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 2: twenty eleven, Israel freed a thousand and twenty seven terrorists 374 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 2: to get back one person. And so if you're sin War, 375 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: you probably say to yourself, wait a minute, If the 376 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 2: Israelis would free a thousand and twenty seven of us 377 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 2: just to get back one person, well, if I take, 378 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 2: as it turns out, now one hundred and ninety nine hostages, 379 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 2: who knows what they'll do. And just to reinforce that further, 380 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 2: the Biden administration recently freed up six billion dollars to 381 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 2: Iran just to get the freedom of five Americans. So 382 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 2: they must have looked at this and said, wait a minute, 383 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: these Westerners, they're weaklings, and if we just take hostages, 384 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 2: we can do whatever we want and they won't fight back. 385 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: They are about to get a Civics lesson in how 386 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 2: democracies work when you go too far. 387 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: One of the things I'm fascinated by is that their 388 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: ultimate political leadership is sitting in gutter in nice houses 389 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: in total safety. I mean, at some point does it 390 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: Israel have to find some way to get them. 391 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 2: These Raelas are very good at getting people that they 392 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 2: want to get. And I would not write the life 393 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 2: insurance policy of people like Khalin Meschal, who, by the way, 394 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 2: they tried to assassinate once before Ismelania or any number 395 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 2: of others. They got a guy named mahmudel mabruch in 396 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: I believe it was in Dubai a couple of years ago. 397 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 2: They got Kaalo Shicaki, who was the head of Islamic 398 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 2: chi Hot in Malta in nineteen ninety five. We all 399 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 2: know the story of the terrorists who took part in Munich, who, 400 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 2: by the way, the New York Times referred to as commandos. 401 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 2: They did that, by the way, and I'm looking for 402 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 2: it on my desk here. They referred to the Palestinians 403 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 2: who murdered Israeli athletes in Munich as commandos on March 404 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 2: twenty fifth, twenty nineteen, in page d eight. And I 405 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 2: would just say that Pete Hegseth on Fox News was 406 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 2: a commando. Senator Tom Cotton, Republican of Arkansas. He was 407 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 2: a commando for any editor of the New York Times 408 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 2: who might be listening. Palestinians who murdered Israelis in their 409 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 2: pajamas at the Olympics, not commandos. There's a difference, and 410 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 2: I'll explain it to you sometime. 411 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: I've read that Shaddad phil that in order to make 412 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: peace he had to somehow restore some of the prestige 413 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: which had been so totally lost in the nineteen sixty 414 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: seven disaster, and that in a sense, he thought some 415 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: kind of reasonable success was the prelude to being able 416 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: to sit down with the Israelis. I mean, do you 417 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: think that that's an accurate portrait of what is thinking was? 418 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: It's part of it. But let's not fool ourselves. The 419 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 2: Israeli left has spun tall tales of how on Ursadad 420 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 2: really wanted peace all along, and if only Golda had 421 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 2: just listened and traded land for peace, there would have 422 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: been peace. There is absolutely no truth to that whatsoever, 423 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 2: And for those who doubt it, on our Sadat's widow, 424 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 2: Jeon Sadat, gave an interview to an Israeli newspaper in 425 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven, and she set herself before the war. 426 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 2: Her husband onwar, Sadat, was not willing to live in 427 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 2: peace with Israel. So yeah, one of his war goals 428 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 2: was to reclaim Egyptian honor. And I have to say, 429 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: to their credit, they really did so, largely because the 430 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 2: Israelis were wise enough to let them do that. And 431 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: they did that because the more humiliating parts of the 432 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 2: separation agreement were put in a side letter. They were 433 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 2: not put in the actual body of the agreement itself. 434 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 2: So to outside people it really did look as though 435 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: Egypt had actually won the war, because well, it's the 436 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 2: winner who usually gets additional territory. What people didn't realize 437 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 2: a lot of them was to get that little tiny 438 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 2: slice of territory, which was barely enough land to bury 439 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: their dead, the Egyptians had to withdraw their army way 440 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 2: west of any future battlefield, rendering any future surprise attack impossible, 441 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 2: rendering any defense from the Israeli Air Force impossible, and 442 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 2: thus rendering any military adventure impossible. So again, now the 443 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 2: choice was make peace with losing the rest of Sinai 444 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: over ninety five percent of it or make peace with Israel. 445 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 2: To his credit, Sadacho's to make peace with Israel. 446 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: Had the Israelis wanted to, even despite the shock and 447 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,239 Speaker 1: the fact that they were hit on both fronts, they 448 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: would in the end destroyed both armies. And the same 449 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: thing here. Listen to some guy other day who maybe 450 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: some analysis based only on the Israeli active duty forces 451 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: and forgot the three hundred and sixty thousand reservists. I mean, 452 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: once you mobilize a citizen army, given the technological advantages 453 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: of Israel, you really have an enormous capability. In your judgment, 454 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: are they capable of dealing both with Hesbelah and Hamas? 455 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 2: They could crush them both with maybe ten or twenty 456 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 2: percent of their military capability. There's no question. There's only 457 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 2: one thing defending Hamas and Hezbolah, and that is Israel's morality. 458 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: Israel is doing everything it can to get civilians. 459 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 3: Out of harm's way. 460 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 2: Hamas is doing everything it can to get civilians in 461 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 2: harmed way because they know that that is literally the 462 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 2: only thing that protects them. In fact, we saw a 463 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: film the other day of an explosion on a bridge 464 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 2: heading from North Gaza to South Gaza. Everyone looked at 465 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 2: it has concluded the same thing that it was Kamas 466 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 2: that blew up that bridge, not the Israelis, because again 467 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 2: they want to try to get as many civilians as 468 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: possible to stay in North Gaza so that they can 469 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 2: use them as human shields. But I have to tell you, 470 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 2: I've been watching Israeli media for a really, really long 471 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 2: time decades. I've never seen the level of anger that 472 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 2: I'm seeing on Israeli TV right now. Even the piece now, 473 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 2: people are saying enough's enough. It's time to go in 474 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 2: and really deal Tomasa death blow and remove them once 475 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 2: and for all. 476 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 3: And that's what's going to happen. 477 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: I hope the Palestinian civilian casualties can be kept to 478 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 2: a minimum, but if that's the cost of war, that 479 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 2: Hamasa civilian enablers, by the way, also bear responsibility for this. 480 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 2: If Kamas sacrifices those civilian enablers, that responsibility is with Kamas, 481 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: not with Israel. 482 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: Somebody did make the comment that you can tell the 483 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: difference in morality because the Israelis put their military in 484 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: front of their civilians to protect them, and Hamas puts 485 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: there's civilians in front of their military to protect them. 486 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: There's literally exactly the opposite moral structure. 487 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 2: It certainly is, and I have to say, despite everything, 488 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 2: and everything is a lot, somehow, the Israelis have achieved 489 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 2: really the best whatever you want to call it, terrorists 490 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 2: to civilian kill ratios frankly if any Western army. This 491 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 2: was confirmed by a British colonel named Richard Kemp. This 492 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 2: was confirmed by our own Chairman of the Joint Chiefs 493 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 2: of Staff, Mark Millie. They've made statements that the Israelis 494 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 2: are just the best at this somehow, but again it's 495 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 2: a question of how the media portrays it. So just 496 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 2: to give one example, there was a recent operation in 497 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 2: Janine and the Israelis killed twelve terrorists, not a single civilian, 498 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 2: and they took one dead of their own. That is 499 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 2: as good as it gets. It's heartbreaking that an Israeli 500 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 2: soldier got killed, but to kill only twelve terrorists no civilians, 501 00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: in a densely populated urban area is extraordinary. 502 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 3: It's unique. One has to just look at the records 503 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 3: of what the US. 504 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 2: Army did in the Battle of Fallujah and you flatten 505 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: the joint to understand, and I'm not being critical the 506 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 2: US Army. To state the obvious, it's a moral army. 507 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 2: They do the best they can, but when terrorists put 508 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 2: civilians in harm's way, it gets really difficult. But here's 509 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 2: the reason I bring up the Janine operation. The New 510 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 2: York Times on July eight, twenty twenty three, page A 511 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 2: nine ran a story. This time they couldn't point to 512 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 2: the dead civilians, so instead they pointed to all the 513 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 2: property damage. And I'll just read the title post raid, 514 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 2: Palestinians are left with mounds of rubble and despair. What 515 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 2: they don't say in the article is that much of 516 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 2: that damage was caused by roadside bombs left by Islamic jihad, 517 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: which they detonated, and of course they damage buildings in 518 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 2: property and the New York Times heaps the blame on Israel. 519 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 2: So really there's not much Israel can do. It just 520 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 2: always seems to be the one blamed at the end 521 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 2: of the day. But I think that a certain level 522 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 2: of determination is now seeped in and ISA where they're 523 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 2: just going to ignore this criticism as well they should. 524 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: Why do you think that even more than the Worship 525 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: Post and the networks. Why is the New York Times 526 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: so rapidly anti Israeli. 527 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 2: Here's the answer. It's a simple question with a complicated answer, 528 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 2: and it goes like this. Let's engage in a thought experiment. Okay, 529 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 2: let us assume argument's sake, all the facts of the 530 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: Arab Israeli conflict are exactly the way they happened. 531 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,479 Speaker 3: Let's just change one fact. 532 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: Let's assume that the nation that invaded Israel in nineteen 533 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: forty eight was not Jordan, not Egypt, not Syria, not 534 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 2: the Palestinians. Let's assume it was Germany or Russia or Canada. 535 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: In other words, let's assume the invaders are white people, 536 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 2: not people of color. So let's stick with Germany. So 537 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 2: Germany decides to ignore a UN resolution passed by a 538 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 2: lopsided majority for partition. The Jews accepted it, just as 539 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 2: the Arabs did. Germany invades, claiming the Jews a Schweiner 540 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 2: went off in pigs and monkeys as the Arabs did. 541 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: Germany said, we want to make it Julguen Ryan clean 542 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 2: of Jews as the Arabs did. Germany kills every Jew 543 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 2: in the Central Highlands of Palestine as the Arabs did. 544 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 2: Some of those communities were thousands of years old, and 545 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 2: now Germany renames the land, but instead of calling it 546 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 2: West Bank, let's call it the Spankenstadt. Okay, So now 547 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: Germany's in the Spankenstadt for nineteen years. And then they 548 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: invade Israel again in nineteen sixty seven, again for the 549 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 2: stated purpose of committing genocide, and Israel fights back, and 550 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 2: this time they win. And now it's only nineteen years later. 551 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: The very people who used to live there show up 552 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 2: and say, wait a minute, this is my home. I 553 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 2: grew up here. I want my home back. The founder 554 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 2: of the Settler movement was a guy by the name 555 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 2: of Hananparat, was in exactly that situation. 556 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 3: Now, in that scenario, do you really think. 557 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 2: That the liberals, that Barack Obama, that Jimmy Carter would say, 558 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 2: you can't have your home back. This is the banking 559 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 2: stock Germany invaded Germany, killed all the Jews now belongs 560 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 2: to Germany. 561 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 3: Nobody would say it. And that's why nobody did say it. 562 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 2: In the summer of nineteen sixty seven, and New and 563 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 2: Security Council Resolution two four to two is drafted to 564 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 2: allow for territorial compromise. But because they're people of color, 565 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 2: and because to be progressive today is all about fighting 566 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 2: for people of color against in this case, not just 567 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 2: white people, but Jews, who, in the minds of progressives 568 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 2: are a group of privilege. So you got the white 569 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 2: group of privilege in one corner, you got the people 570 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 2: of color in the other. The liberals are going to 571 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 2: side with the people of color. Now, the facts don't 572 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 2: support it in the least, so they changed the facts 573 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 2: to fit the narrative. That's what happens all the time 574 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 2: in the American discourse among progressives. And I just want 575 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 2: to state this again. I respect my friends and relatives 576 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 2: and neighbors who are liberal, who are progressive. They feel 577 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 2: very badly about the treatment of people of color down 578 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 2: through the ages. We can debate what the responsibility of 579 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 2: white people today is for things that happen long before 580 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 2: any of us were born, but it's a legitimate debate. 581 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: But the one thing I'd like to think we could 582 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 2: all agree upon is these things have literally nothing whatsoever 583 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 2: to do with the state of Israel. It's a totally 584 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: different fact pattern, but somehow the two get conflated, and again, 585 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 2: because of cognitive dissonance, they change the facts to fit 586 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 2: the narrative. That is what we experience, and if I may, 587 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 2: this is also why we have this weird dynamic in 588 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 2: the Democratic Party. The dynamic is as follows. When it 589 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 2: comes to Israel's relations with its our neighbors, the Democrats 590 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 2: are actually pretty supportive of Israel. But when it comes 591 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 2: to Israel's relations with the Palace Indians, the Democrats are 592 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 2: more anti Israel than Israel's Arab neighbors, and in the 593 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 2: case of Barackobamba, even more anti is Isel than the 594 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 2: Palestinians themselves. And again it speaks to this issue. They 595 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 2: see a white group of privilege and people of color, 596 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 2: and they want to help the people of color. If 597 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 2: I may, I've got here a copy of the memoir 598 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 2: of a man named William Quant. He was the head 599 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 2: of the Israel desk at the NSC under Jimmy Carter 600 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 2: and at Camp David way back in nineteen seventy eight. 601 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 2: The negotiats me manafam Beg and anamarsadt the big issue 602 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 2: with something called linkage. How important is the Palestinian issue 603 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 2: to the issue of Egypt and Israel? And anyone with 604 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 2: any common sense to say nothing of a diplomat will 605 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: say the goal of any conflict is to shrink it. 606 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 2: The more issues you put on the table, the more 607 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 2: difficult you make it to solve. So this is what 608 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 2: William Quant writes. I'm reading from his book Camp David, 609 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 2: the paperback edition, and this is paid seven. Here goes increasingly. 610 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 2: Carter and Saddat seemed to be thinking of an Egyptian 611 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 2: Israeli ac coord one only loosely connected to an attempt 612 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 2: to negotiate an agreement with the Palestinian question. Saddt focused 613 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 2: his comments almost entirely on Sinai. He rarely talked in 614 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 2: detail about the West Bank or Gaza, preferring to stress 615 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 2: general principles. He did not strongly support the American attempt 616 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 2: to mobilize opinion behind a freeze on settlements. Carter was 617 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 2: the one, and now I'm seeing on my own who 618 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 2: was in favor of all sorts of concessions to the Palestinians, 619 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 2: so says William Kwan. Carter was therefore left in the 620 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 2: awkward position of appearing to be more pro Arab than Saddat, 621 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,879 Speaker 2: a politically vulnerable position, to say the least. I think 622 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 2: we've seen this recently. Israel wants to negotiate a peace 623 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 2: treaty with Saudi Arabia. Prince Mahma Ben Salmon gave that 624 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 2: fabulous interview to Brett Bher on Fox. He said himself, 625 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 2: Prince Salomon, on the Palestinian issue, his goal was to 626 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 2: ease their lives. That's it. He didn't mention borders East 627 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 2: Jerusalem or refugees. But yet from Washington, all we heard 628 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 2: over and over was what concessions will be made to 629 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 2: the Palestinians. Those didn't come from the Saudis. They came 630 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 2: from the Democrats. And again it's part of this flawed 631 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 2: thinking where they identified the Palestinians as the people of 632 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 2: color fighting for dignity, and this appears over and over, 633 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 2: particularly with Barack Obama. He took a position more anti 634 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 2: Israel than the Palestinians did. I can explain that if you'd. 635 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: Like, how much will all of this pressure limit or 636 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: slow down the Israeli necessity of destroying Amas. 637 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:46,919 Speaker 2: I don't think the pressure is gonna matter this time. 638 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 2: This is a very different Israel than the one that 639 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 2: negotiated with Henry Kissinger. In those days, Israel's population was 640 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 2: barely three million people, not much bigger than Brooklyn New York. 641 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 2: They were totally tied dependent on the United States, both 642 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 2: for economic assistance and for weapons. This is a very, very, 643 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 2: very different country. The Israel of nineteen seventy three out 644 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 2: a GDP adjusted for inflation, about forty seven billion dollars. 645 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 2: The Israel of today as a GDP of five hundred 646 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 2: and sixty four billion dollars. This is a big country. 647 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 2: They've got a big economy. They make most of their 648 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 2: own weapons. I don't think they can be restrained, nor 649 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 2: do I think that, first of all, they'll be deterred 650 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 2: by a loss of American aid. Not that I expect 651 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 2: that to happen, but American aid is less than one 652 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 2: percent of Israel's GDP. If they lost it, it really wouldn't 653 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 2: be that big of a deal. So what does that 654 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 2: leave sanctions? I can't imagine any administration or any European 655 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 2: country with their headscrewed on straight imposing sanctions. So I 656 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 2: don't think that pressure is going to save the Palestinians 657 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 2: this time. 658 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: Why do you think the Israelis have been so slow 659 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 1: and deliberate in preparing the ground campaign. 660 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 2: They're going to do this in a way that is deliberate, 661 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 2: that is well thought out. It does take time logistically 662 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 2: to get men and equipment in place. They are not 663 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 2: going to be hurried. They don't feel that there's a 664 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 2: stopwatch as in many many other campaigns I describe it 665 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 2: in the book in the Kipper War. They feel impervious 666 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 2: to pressure at this point. So they're going to do 667 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 2: it slowly, methodically in a way that reduces casualties on 668 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 2: their own troops certainly, but also Palestinian civilians. And these 669 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:25,720 Speaker 2: things just take time. 670 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: There was a report yesterday about the number of their 671 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: senior leaders who are now going up in helicopters and 672 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: visually surveying where they're going to be fighting, so that 673 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: they have a complete intimate knowledge before the campaign gets launched. 674 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 1: In a sense, the second Fallujah campaign was like that. 675 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: We launched round one and they really mastered forces before 676 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: they launch round two. For the same reason. So let 677 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: me go back for a second, because I can't resist. 678 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: Why do you think Obama is more anti Israeli than 679 00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 1: the Palestinians? 680 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 3: So on one issue he was. 681 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 2: Here's what happened, go back to Camp David in two 682 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 2: thousand between Aired Barak and yesterir arafact just about the 683 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 2: only thing, yes, Sir Arafat agreed to was this notion 684 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 2: of land swaps, this idea that Israel would get to 685 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 2: keep portions of Judan Samaria if in return they gave 686 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:25,919 Speaker 2: Palestinians land of similar quality in pre sixty seven Israel. Now, 687 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 2: Arafat did not agree to that because he suddenly became reasonable. 688 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 2: He was the opposite of reasonable. He agreed to it 689 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 2: because the Palestinians want to build a connection between the 690 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,959 Speaker 2: Palestinian territories in the West Bank and Gaza. And whether 691 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 2: that'll be a bridge or a tunnel or that's got 692 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 2: to be debated. But the point is they need a 693 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 2: certain amount of land in pre sixty seven Israel to 694 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 2: have that connecting road between the West Bank and Gaza. 695 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 2: So because of that, the notion arose that, well, there 696 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 2: would be a land swap. So how much land will 697 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 2: be swapped? The Palestinians have publicly agreed to two two percent, 698 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 2: Israeli negotiators say they've privately agreed to four percent. Israel 699 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 2: As trying to get the seven percent bottom line. Let's 700 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 2: take that four percent number. The vast majority of Israel's 701 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 2: settlements are on that four percent, and they are known 702 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 2: as now the settlement blocks. But because the Palestinians agreed 703 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 2: that Israel will keep this land in any permanent deal, 704 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 2: the idea rose that, well, this was under President Bush p. 705 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 2: Forty three. Well, since Israel is going to keep this 706 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 2: land anyway, and the Palestinians agree to this, it's okay 707 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,760 Speaker 2: to build settlements there. And that was a really smart, 708 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 2: elegant compromise. It allowed and Israeli Prime minister to build settlements, 709 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 2: but in a way that didn't really prejudice the outcome 710 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,240 Speaker 2: because again, they're going to keep that land even according 711 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 2: to the Palestinians. Comes Barack Obama in two thousand and 712 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 2: nine and says, I want to settlement freeze everywhere, even 713 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 2: in the settlement blocks. Now, the Palestinians can't be less 714 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 2: anti Israel than an American president. So Aba Masen said, well, yeah, 715 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 2: they can't build settlements anywhere, even the settlement block. So, 716 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 2: in other words, Barack Obama, in his hostility towards Israel, 717 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,800 Speaker 2: took the only thing the two sides agreed to, opened 718 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 2: it up and put it back into controversy. 719 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: Do you see his hostility as a part of the 720 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: lefts anti white, anti European mindset. 721 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 2: I don't know if I frame it as anti white, 722 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 2: I do give them more credit. I don't believe in 723 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 2: this term virtue signaling. I believe they have a strong 724 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 2: core belief. It's a core I. 725 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 3: Call it a secular religion. 726 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 2: Really, they believe in this. I respect that we're Americans, 727 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 2: you know, we can reach across the aisle. But I 728 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,800 Speaker 2: just think it's badly misplaced. Whatever one thinks about the 729 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 2: year sixteen nineteen and the legacy of slavery, apartheid, whatever, 730 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 2: these things have literally nothing to do with Israel. It 731 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 2: is a totally different fact pattern. Ben Rhoades writes about 732 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 2: this in his book in his memoir that at one 733 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 2: point Obama was speaking to a group of young Palestinians, 734 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,800 Speaker 2: and the Palestinians say this themart they know how to 735 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 2: play the pr game. One got up, They know all 736 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,919 Speaker 2: the buttons to push and said, oh, mister President, how 737 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 2: can you support this to us being a black person, 738 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 2: knowing that they discriminate against black people? And Ben Rhoades said, Oh, 739 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 2: Obama was pale and drawn because he didn't know what 740 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 2: to say, because he knew the kid was right, and 741 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 2: he knew the kid was right. I mean, it's a 742 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 2: totally different fact pattern. Because I believe so much in 743 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 2: our friends and relatives who are liberal, and because I 744 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 2: know they're good people at heart, I point these things 745 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 2: out in the hope that maybe they will reconsider and 746 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 2: try to break through that barrier of cognitive dissonance. 747 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 1: After the shock of nineteen seventy three, all of the 748 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: senior Israeli leaders step down. Do you expect something like 749 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: this after the campaign's done. 750 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 2: Undoubtedly, And it hurts my heart because I am a 751 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,799 Speaker 2: big fan of Benjamin and Yo. And let me just 752 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 2: point out quickly why Benjamin and Yo is more than 753 00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 2: any single person, the person that slayed the SOT dragging. 754 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 2: I mean, a lot of people get the credit, but 755 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 2: more than any single person, he's the one who gets 756 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 2: the credit. Since two thousand and three, twenty years ago. 757 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,280 Speaker 2: He has served in the last twenty years, three as 758 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,319 Speaker 2: Finance minister, thirteen as Prime Minister. In two thousand and three, 759 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 2: Israel's economy, its GDP was one hundred and thirty one billion. 760 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 2: Today it is five hundred and sixty four billion, so 761 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 2: it grew almost four and a half times in nominal dollars, 762 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,800 Speaker 2: which is annual growth of eight percent, an unheard of 763 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,919 Speaker 2: rate of growth. If we had eight percent one year, 764 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 2: we'd be popping champagne. They did it twenty in a 765 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,959 Speaker 2: row if you take it in after inflation. In other words, 766 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 2: in real terms, the economy grew by two point six 767 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,839 Speaker 2: times with an annualized growth rate of five percent. He 768 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 2: did it. He did it by imposing free market principles. 769 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 2: He broke the socialist economy. He took a page out 770 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 2: of the Milton Friedman playbook. He changed the tax structure. 771 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 2: He lowered incompaxes. He created a consumption tax, so Israelis 772 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 2: are incentive to work more, save more, and consume less. 773 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 2: It's worked like a charm. He deserves that credit. Unfortunately, 774 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:10,359 Speaker 2: I think he's going to be out by the time 775 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 2: this is all finished. Amazing. 776 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: I really want to thank you. This is the fascinating conversation. 777 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 1: Your new book eighteen days in October, the om Kipore 778 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: War and how it created the modern Middle East is 779 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 1: out now. I encourage all of our listeners to other copy, 780 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 1: and I hope we can ask you to come back 781 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: and join us again later as all of this continues 782 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 1: to evolve. It's truly fascinating and thank you for being 783 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:36,879 Speaker 1: with us. 784 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:43,840 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, thank you, thank you. 785 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 1: To my guest Doory Kaufman, you can get a link 786 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: to buy his new book eighteen Days in October, The 787 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 1: Oam Kipure War and How It created the Modern Middle 788 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 1: East on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld 789 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: is produced by Gamelis three sixty, iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 790 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: is Guernsey Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 791 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special 792 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Gingers three sixty. If you've 793 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts 794 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 795 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,760 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 796 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of NEWT World can sign up for 797 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:30,320 Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at gingrichstree sixty dot com 798 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.