Speaker 1: Warning.
Speaker 2: Today's episode contained spoilers for Captain America, Brave New World,
Speaker 2: and the Wider mc U cannon in general, so be warned.
Speaker 2: Hello and name, it's Jason gets UPSI owned Hi, I'm
Speaker 2: rosday night, and welcome back to x ray Vision, the podcast.
Speaker 1: Where we dive deep to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2: Movies, comics and pop culture comedy from Myra podcast where we're.
Speaker 1: Bringing three episodes a week.
Speaker 2: Definitely Tuesday and Thursday, also Wednesday and kind of also
Speaker 2: Saturday for sure Saturday now, so it's four.
Speaker 3: Really, thanks for listening to the news. We're loving to
Speaker 3: bring it to you. I'm glad you're enjoying it. In
Speaker 3: today's episode, we are reacting to the long awaited new
Speaker 3: Captain America film, which is our first MCU film of
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five. We will be going over what it's about,
Speaker 3: what works, what doesn't work, and we'll be tapping in
Speaker 3: our super producers for a big panel discussion. And before
Speaker 3: we jump into that very fun discussion, a reminder that
Speaker 3: we are currently running a listener survey to gather your
Speaker 3: feedback in ideas for the pod, and make sure that
Speaker 3: you've read Dead Evil Borne again in time for our
Speaker 3: upcoming book Club episode on February twenty fourth. Send us
Speaker 3: questions to our email official XRV pod at gmail dot com,
Speaker 3: or pop them in the Discord channel where we have
Speaker 3: a book Club and Dead Evil Born Again channels for you.
Speaker 2: Just set the stage for the discussion of this film.
Speaker 2: Here is the timeline of production news as it happened
Speaker 2: for the movie was announced in twenty twenty one. Captain
Speaker 2: America four in the works with Falcon in the Winter
Speaker 2: Soldier showrunner Malcolm Spellman. This is from The Hollywood Reporter
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. August twenty twe and Mackie signs onto
Speaker 2: the film. July twenty twenty two is announced as Captain
Speaker 2: America New World Order, with an original release date for
Speaker 2: May third, twenty twenty four. September twenty twenty two, Marvel
Speaker 2: announced that the d twenty three Expo that Shirajas is
Speaker 2: joining the cast as Sabra March twenty twenty three. Production
Speaker 2: begins at Trillis Studios in Fayetteville. June twenty twenty three
Speaker 2: more principal photography. But the dual strikes in Hollywood happened.
Speaker 2: The writer strike and the actors strike happened at once.
Speaker 2: And so first the release date is pushed back to
Speaker 2: July twenty six, twenty twenty four. December twenty twenty three,
Speaker 2: Matt Worton, who previously worked on Moonnight on Disney Plus,
Speaker 2: is added as a consulting producer to work on new pages.
Speaker 2: This is the first inkling that we're getting that they're
Speaker 2: going to start reworking this film. May twenty twenty four,
Speaker 2: g and Coler Esposito is now part of the cast,
Speaker 2: and twenty two days of reshoots happen, in which his
Speaker 2: character Sidewinder is basically added to the story as a
Speaker 2: secondary villain. July twenty twenty four, Ruth formerly Sabra, is
Speaker 2: included in the new trailer, and there's some news that
Speaker 2: the character will not be called Sabra and his non
Speaker 2: AMSAD agent like in the comic books, and is instead
Speaker 2: a US government official. And then January twenty twenty five,
Speaker 2: Anthony Mackie has to walk back the comments that preceded
Speaker 2: the film, essentially saying I wasn't trying to dishonor the
Speaker 2: tr troops. I am a proud American. So there's been
Speaker 2: a lot leading up to this film, multiple delays, multiple reshoots, characters,
Speaker 2: added character.
Speaker 4: Changer name Yeah.
Speaker 2: And that all brings us to February twenty twenty five
Speaker 2: and the release of After the America Brave New World.
Speaker 2: We have seen it, Rosie, you and I have seen it.
Speaker 2: The Expectation crew has seen it, and what are your thoughts?
Speaker 3: Okay, So to me, I was actually I went into
Speaker 3: this with low expectations, which I think everybody knows.
Speaker 4: We were not sure about where this was gonna go.
Speaker 3: I was kind of surprised. I thought it was a
Speaker 3: pret tight to our movie. I thought the action was good.
Speaker 3: I thought that I gian Carlo Esposito as we mentioned
Speaker 3: a late stage edition as sidewinder. I thought he was
Speaker 3: a really interesting foil for Mackie. I'm interested to see
Speaker 3: them do more with that. I thought that the connection
Speaker 3: between Mackie and the kid who plays Joaquin Torres was
Speaker 3: really really good. I really enjoyed their fun Danny Ramirez,
Speaker 3: He's very He kind of has this young.
Speaker 4: Energy that I think the MCU has been missing.
Speaker 3: This kind of It's not Tom holl Shit's a little
Speaker 3: bit more funnier, less quippy. I thought those two had
Speaker 3: a good relationship. I thought that the character chemistry that
Speaker 3: they did was actually really interesting.
Speaker 4: And I also felt like for a movie that has had.
Speaker 3: Such extensive reshoots, it didn't really feel that disjointed to me,
Speaker 3: compared to say, are the MCU things that we have seen,
Speaker 3: Madam Weber, Well, Madam, you know, it definitely is high
Speaker 3: above the spermuk Sony universe.
Speaker 4: Definitely.
Speaker 3: And I'm interested because I did not expect to see
Speaker 3: the kind of negativity that came out of.
Speaker 4: The critics screenings.
Speaker 3: Like there were people who liked it, but a lot
Speaker 3: of the kind of first reactions have been that it
Speaker 3: was bad or it was disjointed.
Speaker 4: I didn't feel that way.
Speaker 3: I also have a controversial take, which is like, I
Speaker 3: don't think that this is that different to a lot
Speaker 3: of MCU movies that people love. In my the military
Speaker 3: aspects of it, the kind of huge conspiracy that happens
Speaker 3: and sets people against each other. They echoed kind of
Speaker 3: Bucky and Steve's relationship here with Anthony Mackie and Sam
Speaker 3: as Sam Wilson and Carl Lumley as Isaiah Bradley. I
Speaker 3: thought that Isaiah Bradley's stuff was very, very good. I
Speaker 3: was a big fan of how they decided to go
Speaker 3: about that. I liked how they showed his powers. I
Speaker 3: thought the idea of Sam Wilson not having super serum
Speaker 3: and that being a constant kind of conversation was interesting.
Speaker 3: We will tap in super producer Joelle later to talk
Speaker 3: about why that didn't work for her in the same way.
Speaker 4: But generally, I think, because one.
Speaker 3: I'm a comic booklover and I'm just interested to see
Speaker 3: a Sam Wilson movie, I will be writing, You'll be
Speaker 3: able to find multiple pieces by me about Sam Wilson.
Speaker 4: He's a comic book character I have a lot of
Speaker 4: love for.
Speaker 3: To me, it kind of just felt like picking up
Speaker 3: a trade paperback and reading a comic book kind of
Speaker 3: about you know, Red.
Speaker 4: Hulk versus Captain America.
Speaker 3: Like that's what the vibe of it was for me,
Speaker 3: And I thought for kind of a blockbuster, big movie,
Speaker 3: and also for what people have been asking for from
Speaker 3: the MCU, which is a move away from the hard
Speaker 3: sci fi of Eternals or the you know, volume hued
Speaker 3: mess of Quantumania. As fun as that may be, this
Speaker 3: feels like a response to what the audience wants, which
Speaker 3: is pared down kind of conspiracy thriller, crazy action, and
Speaker 3: the action is very very well shot.
Speaker 4: I thought that there was a lot.
Speaker 3: Of fun use of sam shield here, which is a
Speaker 3: big part of any Captain America movie, and we've never
Speaker 3: gotten as much shield play as we do here.
Speaker 4: I like that he had the kinetic vibranium wings.
Speaker 3: I thought that led to a lot of fun action
Speaker 3: in a way we haven't seen before with Captain America
Speaker 3: or when he was Falcon and we get to see,
Speaker 3: you know, the younger Falcon who kind of has his
Speaker 3: own way of fighting.
Speaker 4: And wants to learn. I just thought that it was
Speaker 4: you know, it's not definitely not op that with the
Speaker 4: best of the MCU, but in my opinion, definitely not
Speaker 4: down there with the worst. How about you, Jason, I.
Speaker 2: Was definitely because of the pre release buzz it talks
Speaker 2: about reshoots, the controversy over the inclusion of Sabra, that
Speaker 2: we were potentially on the road to a full like
Speaker 2: Sony Verse level.
Speaker 1: It's Morbon time.
Speaker 4: I definitely thought, and.
Speaker 2: While I do think that you could sense the choppiness
Speaker 2: at times, it definitely was not bad. It's not a
Speaker 2: bad film. It was described in our group chat as
Speaker 2: aggressively mid I would agree with that. I think that
Speaker 2: there are some things that legitimately work really well. Like
Speaker 2: you mentioned, I think the Isaiah Bradley stuff in the
Speaker 2: rapport that he has with Mackie, the rapport he has
Speaker 2: with Sam and Joaquin is legitimately good. Like I love
Speaker 2: their stuff.
Speaker 3: I want to see more of them, Like that is
Speaker 3: something I want to see more of.
Speaker 2: Yes, I thought that Mackie has a kind of we
Speaker 2: you know, we had been concerned that Maki doesn't have
Speaker 2: the juice, and he does have a kind of juice.
Speaker 1: That I think really works well in these kind of group.
Speaker 2: Dialogue scenes where there's back and forth. These character moments
Speaker 2: I think are really wonderful.
Speaker 1: And on the reshoots, I have a.
Speaker 2: Conspiracy theory that we've talked about, so like, you know,
Speaker 2: here's my conspiracy theory with the you know, we talked
Speaker 2: about how the movie scored really poorly with test audiences
Speaker 2: and they had to do all these reshoots, including adding
Speaker 2: side wonder Geane Carlo west Posito of the Serpent Society
Speaker 2: very late in the game, you know, And here is my.
Speaker 1: Here's my theory, Rosie.
Speaker 2: I think the reason the movie scored so poorly isn't
Speaker 2: because it was a Madam Web level disaster.
Speaker 1: It was because black hero.
Speaker 2: White villain, white villain is the president. M why are
Speaker 2: you why is this black hero beating up the white guy?
Speaker 2: And why is the white guy so bad and evil?
Speaker 2: Shouldn't he be better? Can't we redeem him somehow?
Speaker 1: Which the movie.
Speaker 2: Does redeem, you know, Ross is essentially redeemed. And when
Speaker 2: you add in the detail that part of what they
Speaker 2: did was add gene Carlos Posito. Is this kind of
Speaker 2: like secondary foil? I think part of the scoring. Again,
Speaker 2: this is just my conspiracy theory. I'm just theorizing, was
Speaker 2: like can't can't can't the black hero like have a
Speaker 2: black or brown villain to beat up?
Speaker 1: Like why is it always got to be beating?
Speaker 3: Also, I think has I think you up bringing up something?
Speaker 3: That one was immediately a talking point after the movie
Speaker 3: in the cinema, in the screen where I saw it,
Speaker 3: because everyone was like, wait a minute, why did this
Speaker 3: score so badly?
Speaker 4: Like it's not like the world, It's not even thought.
Speaker 3: I I'm a thought of the dark world, uh kind
Speaker 3: of truth that.
Speaker 4: I think.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of interesting stuff there, But I understand
Speaker 3: why it did not hit the way that it was
Speaker 3: supposed to. Which is a big part of also what
Speaker 3: I think it's funny about the MCU as everyone thinks
Speaker 3: that everything was like a huge hit, but this movie
Speaker 3: is tight to our action movie, relatively smoothed over for
Speaker 3: so many reshoots, Like I was surprised by how whole
Speaker 3: it felt, but you can tell that by these they.
Speaker 4: They have to read, they have to redeem.
Speaker 2: Where you can really feel the reshoots are. The big
Speaker 2: dialogue scene between Sam and Ross and the Raft was
Speaker 2: clearly patched together and renowned several times. In fact, I'm
Speaker 2: guessing to give it that more redemptive tone for Ross,
Speaker 2: where maybe in a previous version Ross is just a
Speaker 2: bad guy who takes the fall and then like see
Speaker 2: you later lock him in the raft.
Speaker 1: Now it's like he's got this whole.
Speaker 2: Emotional arc where they bring Betty back, and a lot
Speaker 2: of you understand that a lot of his emotional drive
Speaker 2: is he's trying to win his daughter back. He's not
Speaker 2: He's didn't just imprison Samuel Stearns and use his Gamma
Speaker 2: powered brain to help him win the White House out
Speaker 2: of sheer.
Speaker 1: Lust for power. It's because he loves his daughter.
Speaker 3: Hey, Okay, and they were torturing people in a black
Speaker 3: site door, okay.
Speaker 2: And there were other things, you know, like the other
Speaker 2: disjointed things.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: Sam Stern shows up at some house like in rural
Speaker 2: Virginia and kills everybody inside and watches the television and
Speaker 2: makes a phone call. Am I supposed to know who
Speaker 2: that person is? I feel like I'm in a previous
Speaker 2: version of this movie. I probably would have known who
Speaker 2: was in that house, but now I don't. So there's
Speaker 2: things like that, Sabra, I feel like, is I feel
Speaker 2: like they obviously they're trying to make a mini widow
Speaker 2: here and kind of reassemble Captain America's cast of characters
Speaker 2: around him with another with Joaquin as another Falcon and
Speaker 2: with uh uh, Ruth is another because she's not actually
Speaker 2: Ruth is another black widow. But and so that didn't
Speaker 2: necessarily work for me.
Speaker 1: But there are things.
Speaker 2: But but I was expecting, like truly, like a toxic
Speaker 2: waste dump, and this is not what that is. This
Speaker 2: is I, you know, our super decer. Aaron is going
Speaker 2: to mention not to step on his point that the
Speaker 2: the the first third act big action scene in which
Speaker 2: Sam and Joaquin save the world from World War three
Speaker 2: Sparking between the US and Japan features some absolutely poppy
Speaker 2: cocks scenes of like shield throwing physics where Sam is
Speaker 2: throwing but that's what Captain America.
Speaker 5: I agree, that is what Captain America is.
Speaker 3: Always throwing his shield at something and stopping something unbelievable.
Speaker 3: Suspension of disbelief is not not broken by that.
Speaker 4: But I think that's also because I've been trained that.
Speaker 2: I do think the Red Hulk, like the Red Hulk
Speaker 2: fight worked for me as as not just like an
Speaker 2: action scene, but also something that.
Speaker 1: Carried some of the character.
Speaker 2: Story and emotion arc of Sam, which is that like
Speaker 2: he's genuinely struggling with his ability to live up to
Speaker 2: people's expectations, to live up to Steve's standards. Steve beat off,
Speaker 2: you know, like defended the Earth from two different alien
Speaker 2: invasions and spearheaded the fight against Thanos, and like, what
Speaker 2: has Sam done? And at the end of that fight,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm saying to myself, well, Sam beat a Hulk.
Speaker 2: Sam took on a Hulk one v one and won,
Speaker 2: So I thought that was cool. I think it's a
Speaker 2: I do think it's a mid movie, but it's I
Speaker 2: don't think it's bad by any means, Like this is
Speaker 2: better than Quantumnia, This is a this is a pretty
Speaker 2: good Marvel film with some very interesting things. And I
Speaker 2: thought they we'll talk about the post credit scene, but
Speaker 2: I did feel a little light and open ended, which
Speaker 2: is probably what.
Speaker 4: They're the point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And also I would say that I think everybody
Speaker 3: who has lived through this now almost twenty years of
Speaker 3: MCU kind of supremacy since the two thousand and eight
Speaker 3: release of Iron Man, it is easy to only remember
Speaker 3: the kind of lead up to Infinity War an endgame,
Speaker 3: where these were the movies everyone had to see, where
Speaker 3: everybody loved them, and every movie's making a billion dollars
Speaker 3: and they are like the cinematic experience of you know,
Speaker 3: a generation for a lot of people.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 4: There were a.
Speaker 3: Lot of movies that came out in those first three phases,
Speaker 3: iron Man two, even Captain America, the first Avenger. It
Speaker 3: was beloved by some but were seen as kind of
Speaker 3: like a weird diversion as a period piece for others
Speaker 3: who liked kind of the newer.
Speaker 4: More grounded stuff.
Speaker 3: The MCU has never had a consistency of pure quality.
Speaker 3: It has always dipped and ebbed, and there has always
Speaker 3: been movies that some people like and some people don't like,
Speaker 3: as well as the kind of celebrated movies. And I
Speaker 3: would just say I personally feel like this is going
Speaker 3: to be one of those movies that maybe flies under
Speaker 3: the radar critics don't like it. We also know people,
Speaker 3: certain people in the critical class, they go into these
Speaker 3: movies like looking to hate them. And I think that
Speaker 3: in a few years there's gonna be some people who
Speaker 3: are like, well, this is actually like a pretty sick,
Speaker 3: straight up action movie, political conspiracy thriller for the MCU.
Speaker 3: I think it's in hindsight is going to be viewed
Speaker 3: than how it's being viewed now, which I think is
Speaker 3: gonna be kind of like, well, it's.
Speaker 4: Mid but it's not as bad as Quantumnia.
Speaker 2: I will say that also, I think that there are
Speaker 2: also structural things that will keep this is not a
Speaker 2: This is not an easy jumping on point. I think
Speaker 2: for for folks right who.
Speaker 1: Have never watched a Marvel.
Speaker 2: Movie or television program, if you're going to jump on here,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things you're gonna miss, which like
Speaker 2: some of the connective tissue from Captain America, which Soldiers.
Speaker 5: It is essentially incredible Hoole Soldier, but.
Speaker 4: It's also an incredible Hawk sequel, which I.
Speaker 2: Think it's an incredible sequel from a movie from eighteen
Speaker 2: years ago.
Speaker 3: Like nobody really again for a long time even considered
Speaker 3: part of the MCU. It was like a very controversial
Speaker 3: thing because it came out at the same time, you know,
Speaker 3: in the same year as I Am Man, but it
Speaker 3: didn't have that same hit.
Speaker 4: And then obviously we got the change. I was really hoping.
Speaker 3: If there was one thing I think this movie was missing,
Speaker 3: the way that they had Betty kind of beyond the
Speaker 3: outskirts of this movie. I was hoping that the reason
Speaker 3: that he hadn't seen her was because she was Red
Speaker 3: Shee Hulk, because that is what happens in the comics,
Speaker 3: is you kind of have the two characters going on
Speaker 3: that journey together. I think that would have been really interesting.
Speaker 3: I think also that I'll tell you what this movie
Speaker 3: fails at, because Jason, this is me and you, the
Speaker 3: two people who maybe more than anyone on earth, just
Speaker 3: loved talking about the X Men, Okay, and we have
Speaker 3: not even talked about the fact that this is the
Speaker 3: movie that.
Speaker 4: Introduces Adam maginam to the MCU.
Speaker 3: I will say, in my opinion, that is a failing
Speaker 3: of the movie because I do think to me, if
Speaker 3: you're talking about reshoots or things that felt like they
Speaker 3: probably changed during it, that to me did feel like, oh,
Speaker 3: we need we maybe had something else that we were
Speaker 3: searching for, We maybe had a different mcguffin, and now
Speaker 3: we can just put the word adamantium like on this
Speaker 3: kind of screen that is going to be in front
Speaker 3: of President Ross before he gets attempted assassinated. So I
Speaker 3: did think the adamantium thing was a little bit neither
Speaker 3: here nor there, but it is a big deal. As
Speaker 3: you will know, that is a huge element in the
Speaker 3: Marvel comics.
Speaker 4: It's what created Wolverine. I also am interested.
Speaker 3: This is probably me reading too much into it, but
Speaker 3: something else I thought was interesting. I thought it was
Speaker 3: interesting to have Japan and America fighting over this adamantium
Speaker 3: source when in the comics Wolverine has so many connections
Speaker 3: to Japan.
Speaker 1: I was just.
Speaker 3: Interested to kind of see if they were going to
Speaker 3: do something thoughtful.
Speaker 4: I do with that side of.
Speaker 2: That was like I thought the the casting of Takahiro
Speaker 2: Hero as the Prime Minister was interesting to me, and
Speaker 2: it made me wonder if he has a larger role
Speaker 2: coming in the MCU, because that's a really juicy, great
Speaker 2: ca and it just leaves you wondering if you're gonna
Speaker 2: see more. We're gonna take a break and we'll be
Speaker 2: right back after this. On the X Men front, so
Speaker 2: we were talking about the post credit scene. The post
Speaker 2: credit scene is very open ended, clearly strategically open ended,
Speaker 2: so that it could mean anything, in which, you know,
Speaker 2: Sam Suarton says, Oh, I've been looking at the probabilities
Speaker 2: and they're coming. You know, do you think this is
Speaker 2: the only world? Do you think that you're the only ones?
Speaker 2: The others are coming. The others could be Fantastic four,
Speaker 2: could be another version of the Avengers, It could be.
Speaker 4: Yeah, tell us, so it could be immutant. But I
Speaker 4: want to hate you.
Speaker 3: I want to hate you aut theory because you pose
Speaker 3: it this in the group chat and it's really good.
Speaker 3: And then I'll come back with the vibe I got
Speaker 3: from it, which was similar bit different.
Speaker 2: So you know, we've been talking the whole time about like,
Speaker 2: how do they introduce the X Men, How do they
Speaker 2: introduce the X Men? One of the you know, important
Speaker 2: things about Marvel comics is that the X Men exist
Speaker 2: in a world in which people are.
Speaker 1: Hate mutants.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of hatred of mutants and bias against
Speaker 2: mutants for a variety of reasons, and that doesn't really
Speaker 2: exist in the MCU, And so how would you create that.
Speaker 2: So this is what I think that they're going to.
Speaker 2: This is what a way I think they could go,
Speaker 2: and I wonder if this post credit scene doesn't lead
Speaker 2: into it. So I think that there are mutants now
Speaker 2: as we've seen. We've already seen that there are various
Speaker 2: mutants throughout the MCU, and they're now calling them that, right, mutations.
Speaker 2: I think what's going to happen is the others, in part,
Speaker 2: will be these mutants from the worlds in which, you know,
Speaker 2: the days of future past worlds in which it's a dystopia,
Speaker 2: mutants are agents slaved in the Asia, it's a full
Speaker 2: like century, you know, sentinel powered genocide against these mutants.
Speaker 2: I think that they are gonna some of these mutants
Speaker 2: from other worlds are going to come to the MCU,
Speaker 2: and they're going to say to the mutants that are
Speaker 2: here now and are peaceful and are basically integrated in
Speaker 2: the superhero mento human community.
Speaker 3: They're going to.
Speaker 2: Say, yeah, it's like that now, but here's how it's going.
Speaker 2: Here's where it's going to go because we're from that world.
Speaker 2: And you just watch watch what they do, watch their actions,
Speaker 2: not their words, because they're going to start building these
Speaker 2: sentinels and they're going to start hunting you. And it's
Speaker 2: going to happen slowly at first, but you watch that's
Speaker 2: where it's going. They're going to put you, they're going
Speaker 2: to kill you.
Speaker 1: And I think that the mutants.
Speaker 2: That exist here, that are already here, are going to
Speaker 2: slowly be They're going to become militant because of that message,
Speaker 2: and they're going to see things in the world that
Speaker 2: are truly leading them that way. And that's going to
Speaker 2: be the setup for the X Men, and so you
Speaker 2: can actually I think there'll be actually like an Assemble
Speaker 2: the X Men type of situation.
Speaker 3: I think I think that you're really onto something there
Speaker 3: the vibe I got from it, and I do also
Speaker 3: just want to say, I.
Speaker 4: Really like this version of the Leader. I like the
Speaker 4: horrible kind of horror movie.
Speaker 6: You did like it.
Speaker 3: I also I love how comic book they went with
Speaker 3: him his obsession with probabilities and the ability to see.
Speaker 4: What is coming next. I think that's very interesting.
Speaker 3: My gut says, Originally this maybe said something different, like
Speaker 3: it felt like he was kind of warning about Galactus
Speaker 3: or the fantastic forecoming and what that would mean. My
Speaker 3: gut was similar, though in the way of what the
Speaker 3: others meant. It definitely felt to me like maybe some
Speaker 3: kind of grizzled alternate universe heroes who at first you're
Speaker 3: going to think are bad, but are actually good. I
Speaker 3: also think one of the biggest interesting takeaways here story
Speaker 3: wise is you have a sad I'm Wilson ends this
Speaker 3: movie and he wants to restart the Avengers, which is
Speaker 3: something he was inspired to do by Thunderbolt Ross. He
Speaker 3: asked Joaquin Torres, so, I think we will have two
Speaker 3: Avengers teams by the end of this year. We will
Speaker 3: have Sam's Avengers and we'll have the Thunderbolts. So we're
Speaker 3: essentially going to be the Dark Avengers. So I think
Speaker 3: there's some really interesting stuff seeded here. But let's let's
Speaker 3: tap in our Let's tap in our more critical super
Speaker 3: producers who have some thoughts about what didn't work in
Speaker 3: the movie.
Speaker 4: Aaron and Joel, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 7: Welcome to the haters corner. What's up, Aeron, I'm gonna
Speaker 7: let you go first.
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, you guys.
Speaker 6: Discussing the possibility for introducing the X Men just now
Speaker 6: in that quick five minutes was more interesting than anything
Speaker 6: that happened in this movie.
Speaker 4: Kevin Figy, did you hear that? Hire me and Jason,
Speaker 4: Hire me and Jason Baby?
Speaker 7: I mean, yeah, I definitely do that. A You had
Speaker 7: a lot of thoughts.
Speaker 3: Aaron, what was your Yeah, well, tell us your you
Speaker 3: you saw it first, so just like tell us that's
Speaker 3: what your reactions were pre any of us seeing it,
Speaker 3: because you got to see it like ten in the
Speaker 3: morning in New York.
Speaker 6: As Jason mentioned, I thought Act one was very strong,
Speaker 6: and I was excited as I was going through Act one.
Speaker 6: You have that opening scene where he's trying to steal
Speaker 6: the shipment and the dealer didn't make it, and Gen
Speaker 6: carl Esposito is speaking in Spanish and he's very menacing.
Speaker 8: It was great.
Speaker 6: And then you have the fight where Sam is getting
Speaker 6: beat up and he doesn't have the shield and the
Speaker 6: huge guy is fighting him and Sam's quipping back and
Speaker 6: forth with him. Loved that, and then you get gen
Speaker 6: Carlo Esposito, like attacking him in the car and you know,
Speaker 6: shoots through the window, throws.
Speaker 1: The grenade in.
Speaker 6: I loved all of that, and then it just starts
Speaker 6: to slow down. I felt like, I feel like a
Speaker 6: lot of in some ways the movie wasn't sure what
Speaker 6: to do action wise, Like we have this character who flies,
Speaker 6: and we have Danny Ramirez, let's make top gun. But
Speaker 6: also when we're making top Gun, he's got to use
Speaker 6: punches and kicks and throw his shield in mid air
Speaker 6: and then when they get back down, like the hand
Speaker 6: to hand combat stuff. I actually thought they used the
Speaker 6: wings pretty well and I really loved.
Speaker 1: Red Hawk the Red Wing.
Speaker 6: I love Red Wing. Loved the way that that was
Speaker 6: used throughout, like whether it was in the Red Hulk
Speaker 6: fight and like kind of doing you know, distraction fire
Speaker 6: or whatever. So I thought that stuff was all really good.
Speaker 6: But I do think it just it kind of petered
Speaker 6: off into act two, and by Act three, I was like, God,
Speaker 6: if we get another climactic scene where Sam talks them down,
Speaker 6: and it's like another you have to do better, mister President.
Speaker 6: I'm going to be disappointed, and of course that's how
Speaker 6: it ends. And I was like, okay, wow, here we
Speaker 6: are another Like, you know, I know the whole movie
Speaker 6: is supposed to be about him coming to terms with
Speaker 6: he's not Steve, but he also deserves to be a hero.
Speaker 6: And it find message, and a good message. I don't
Speaker 6: think they necessarily really delivered it well enough, but I
Speaker 6: also didn't need I know why they tried to do that.
Speaker 6: He is he's a he's a counselor and this is
Speaker 6: this makes it sense for that to be his superpower
Speaker 6: and how he kind of gets the job done in
Speaker 6: the end. But it just felt so strange to be like,
Speaker 6: here's Red Hulk, who's been catastrophically destroying everything, hasn't said anything,
Speaker 6: has ripped your wing off, and then you just were like, hey, hey,
Speaker 6: turns out Jepanese.
Speaker 2: Did not seem like the most realistic part of the
Speaker 2: entire movie was you have this extremely destructive, rage filled
Speaker 2: president who destroyed the White House, has previously destroyed Harlem
Speaker 2: and other fucking things. I'm gonna say and think, and
Speaker 2: you gotta redeem this guy, right, He's not bad?
Speaker 4: Just how crazy is that?
Speaker 2: How crazy as a piece of content that lives in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, in the world that we live in.
Speaker 2: I don't like that story, but I also understand why
Speaker 2: they did it, and because again back to my conspiracy theory,
Speaker 2: I think people reacted to whatever the first cuts of
Speaker 2: this movie were and were like white president to evil,
Speaker 2: make him nicer.
Speaker 6: But it's not a good story if you feel backed
Speaker 6: into only one way of resolving something, and as the writer,
Speaker 6: you have to do that.
Speaker 3: I will also say that I just want to point
Speaker 3: out here as well. I do think Aaron, you touch
Speaker 3: on something that is one of my issues. I wrote
Speaker 3: a piece about this for Polygon about this movie, about
Speaker 3: this character. I think one of the biggest failings of
Speaker 3: that whole like he's a counselor thing is that in
Speaker 3: the comics he's actually a social worker and he's not
Speaker 3: military and he cares about his community. It's so embedded
Speaker 3: into who he is, and Sam is not military. That
Speaker 3: is something they added later, and it was also something
Speaker 3: that was really focused on in the movies here the
Speaker 3: same way that they made it so Rody was a warhawk,
Speaker 3: whereas in the makes he is a pacifist because he
Speaker 3: was a veteran, and I do think that that angle
Speaker 3: of Sam, they wanted to bring it in here more,
Speaker 3: but I don't think they did the work in the
Speaker 3: movies in general, in the mc with his characterization to
Speaker 3: make that thing, Whereas I think what works here is
Speaker 3: actually Sam's personality and his connection with other characters. Also, Jason,
Speaker 3: you make a great point because I do believe that
Speaker 3: you are right about the testing, especially because what has
Speaker 3: the trend been for the past few MCU movies. Every
Speaker 3: villain is black the Marvels, the villain is black. They
Speaker 3: are always bringing in black villains. Obviously, Kill Manger, iconic
Speaker 3: black villain like. They are Flag Smasher black villain like.
Speaker 3: They have been making a lot of black villains in
Speaker 3: these movies Kang obviously black villain like, and they have
Speaker 3: been using the idea of like casting diversely to make
Speaker 3: a lot of really kind of big, bombastic black villains.
Speaker 3: And I think this is probably the first movie that
Speaker 3: tested for a while that had a white villain and
Speaker 3: Thunderbolt Ross. I also think that it is kind of
Speaker 3: funny to watch this movie in twenty twenty five because
Speaker 3: I was thinking, like, oh, if Disney actually goes there
Speaker 3: and makes Ross the bad guy.
Speaker 4: This will seem like it's making a statement. I don't
Speaker 4: think thisy I think that statement.
Speaker 2: I think they were absolutely terrified of making a statement.
Speaker 8: I think that's what was clear in this movie. That's veryeah,
Speaker 8: can we yeah, Joel.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm gonna zoom out.
Speaker 8: A little bit and just try to.
Speaker 7: Judge this movie based off itself. And I agree with
Speaker 7: you guys that this movie is fine. I think I
Speaker 7: wrote aggressively made in the chat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Think that's a very fair abuse.
Speaker 7: And I knew we were in huge trouble when my
Speaker 7: audience the only time my audience got rowdy when Bucky
Speaker 7: showed up. I said, this is not good. This is
Speaker 7: not good because you have moved someone who's been in
Speaker 7: a second tier buddy position up to your number one
Speaker 7: on the call sheet.
Speaker 8: You're your top lead guy.
Speaker 7: And then very early or i'll say late in the
Speaker 7: first act, you get a statement you need to be
Speaker 7: remaking the Avengers.
Speaker 8: We need them back.
Speaker 7: If you have somebody who's also a second who hasn't
Speaker 7: been bummed up to number one, the audience is twenty
Speaker 7: times more excited to see that person. You don't have
Speaker 7: a leader and you didn't make a story that evolved
Speaker 7: him into a leader. And that's really a problem. That's
Speaker 7: a huge problem because I don't think general audiences are
Speaker 7: going to want to see this version of Sam as
Speaker 7: the leader of the Avengers, not because we could throw
Speaker 7: race and all this. Yes, throw obviously behaters, that's consistent,
Speaker 7: but he doesn't have the gravitas or the Jews, or
Speaker 7: really the appealing storyline of let's say, a black panther.
Speaker 7: And for me, as a black Marvel fan, this is
Speaker 7: a huge This is our first black American character leading
Speaker 7: a story period.
Speaker 2: So you don't think that in that You don't think
Speaker 2: in the aftermath of this that guy beat a hulk. No,
Speaker 2: isn't the resume builder for Sam. When they eventually do
Speaker 2: put the.
Speaker 7: Ams why you don't get the emotional beat of holy fuck,
Speaker 7: how is he gonna do this? You don't get CAP's
Speaker 7: arm is broken. They didn't have.
Speaker 4: They didn't have the broken moth moment.
Speaker 6: They did though he crushed his mask. They rip his
Speaker 6: wing off.
Speaker 4: But did it hit? Is what I'm saying. Like, when
Speaker 4: you think about the moment of like I will.
Speaker 7: Say in Civil War, is more impactful than CAP's wing
Speaker 7: being I disagree.
Speaker 4: I do want to say, Okay, Jason, well, I just.
Speaker 5: Want I think that.
Speaker 2: I think Matthew is good in this, and I think again,
Speaker 2: this is a movie that plays to his strength, which
Speaker 2: is a lot of these dialogue scenes, these two furs
Speaker 2: or three four scenes where he is, you know, just
Speaker 2: playing this wonderful banter in chemistry that he has with
Speaker 2: the other actress. I don't know that he has the
Speaker 2: ability to command the screen on his own, or the problem,
Speaker 2: has the ability to go to the kind of like
Speaker 2: emotional desperation that even that that Roady goes to in
Speaker 2: various parts of the MCU, whether it's when he's injured
Speaker 2: in the post injury or when it's post snap and
Speaker 2: he's trying to organize this like search forthan also and
Speaker 2: other things like he's he conveys this like oh shit,
Speaker 2: like we're fuck. I don't, I don't know what I'm
Speaker 2: this is really hard that I don't know that Mackie
Speaker 2: ever had. I don't know that he has that gear,
Speaker 2: is what I'll say about Mackie, who I again I
Speaker 2: think is good in this, but I don't I think
Speaker 2: you're right in this sense that like he's not his
Speaker 2: juice is a different type of juice, and it's definitely
Speaker 2: not Don't type of juice.
Speaker 7: I just think the storyline isn't there for him to
Speaker 7: be able to deliver that kind of like for example,
Speaker 7: I did not know Sam was a social worker instantly.
Speaker 4: That's true. I will never tell you that they don't
Speaker 4: want to talk about that. It makes me very mad.
Speaker 7: And I think too if you talk if you have
Speaker 7: friends that are veterans or family members, a lot of
Speaker 7: them have really strong opinions about the military, and we
Speaker 7: never much on that. We are still exactly how cinema
Speaker 7: and the military works in order to get your military, tanks,
Speaker 7: military the script.
Speaker 8: It's the whole thing for it.
Speaker 4: Disney wants to no, no, no, But I agree with you, Joelle.
Speaker 3: I do think it's I think it's one of the
Speaker 3: weakest parts of the way that they've treated Falcon and
Speaker 3: also Rody and also every black character that they militarize,
Speaker 3: which they have done with.
Speaker 4: Pretty much every black character.
Speaker 3: Also, I would look this is again I think I'm
Speaker 3: coming into this with because my expectations were so low.
Speaker 3: I think I do have a more generous reading of
Speaker 3: the movie. What I will say I don't think it's
Speaker 3: intentional to make him feel like he's not going to
Speaker 3: lead the Avengers.
Speaker 4: And I do have to say I thought it.
Speaker 3: It's pretty crazy to be in a screening when we
Speaker 3: have been in these screenings for years where the moment
Speaker 3: that like Victor.
Speaker 4: Timily comes on, like someone's cheering.
Speaker 3: Was it me yes, to be in a screen where
Speaker 3: they say Adamantium and nobody cares. They say we need
Speaker 3: a new Avengers team and nobody cares now, but.
Speaker 4: That is a franchise problem.
Speaker 3: I actually think that what is being set up here
Speaker 3: or what could come next if maybe this is not
Speaker 3: what they were thinking of. But we are gonna obviously
Speaker 3: have two Avengers teams, and I think Bucky and the
Speaker 3: Thunderbolts are gonna be the favored team and they are
Speaker 3: going to be the actual heroic team. And I think
Speaker 3: that Sam's underdog Avengers that.
Speaker 4: Is going to be a few different people.
Speaker 3: That's going to maybe be more of a kind of
Speaker 3: like there was an Avengers team in the comics around
Speaker 3: the time of Marvel Now where there was Sam Wilson
Speaker 3: Captain America, there was Captain Marvel. There was a different
Speaker 3: setup of characters. I think there's gonna be a set,
Speaker 3: there's gonna be two teams, and I do think that
Speaker 3: Sam's team is gonna end up being the underdog team
Speaker 3: compared to the favored government, you know, villain team. So
Speaker 3: I think that that is actually to think, oh, does
Speaker 3: this man have the power to set up the Avengers.
Speaker 3: I actually think is an interesting conflict to introduce, and
Speaker 3: that Will could play into it. But I also understand
Speaker 3: how I might be looking at it too generously. But
Speaker 3: I personally was surprised. I felt like the movie came
Speaker 3: together pretty well compared to other chopped up nightmare superhero movies.
Speaker 4: You'll see it's n MCU. They haven't been doing great recently.
Speaker 7: Yeah, to me, the problem is two fronts, and it's
Speaker 7: problems we already Disney had. And I think what was
Speaker 7: more disappointing is like, it's great that it's not Quantumnia.
Speaker 7: I don't know what happened with that film, but it
Speaker 7: was god awful and it's literally unwanted.
Speaker 8: I can't rewatch it.
Speaker 3: But it's the rick and mortification combined with the volume.
Speaker 3: It becomes like a very specific experience. This is nice
Speaker 3: to see real cinematography back again.
Speaker 6: Wait, this had real so in photography there.
Speaker 5: I thought this was shot.
Speaker 1: I thought this was very.
Speaker 2: Well Yeah, especially compared to even like Phase one through
Speaker 2: three Marvel movies, which color palette I love, those movies
Speaker 2: can be very very bland. This hands like an interesting
Speaker 2: This looked like there was an interesting texture to the
Speaker 2: shots in this.
Speaker 4: Even like Ros, the.
Speaker 3: Color has been nicely saturated at the Oval office was
Speaker 3: like really blued.
Speaker 2: Maybe the assassination scene of Ross, like doing this speech
Speaker 2: in front of like the world leaders, I thought that
Speaker 2: looked really good.
Speaker 7: I thought, like, but this is I guess I'm.
Speaker 6: Docking it too much for the very end in the
Speaker 6: climactic scene when it looks like, yeah, it looks like
Speaker 6: he's standing in front of a tarp.
Speaker 1: In his jackyard.
Speaker 6: So like that clearly kind of ruined the video.
Speaker 2: But you clearly did that fifty times and over the
Speaker 2: course of like three months leading up to the release
Speaker 2: of this film, like can you come back and just
Speaker 2: green screen this again again again again?
Speaker 3: Like that was That was the one moment where everyone
Speaker 3: in my row was like looking at each other like, God, wait,
Speaker 3: but I think that finished.
Speaker 7: I think the problem is like if you the two
Speaker 7: problems isn't he had? Is like one we know their
Speaker 7: TV shows weren't connecting with as wide of an audience,
Speaker 7: and because they're interconnected, Bucky scene is literally just a
Speaker 7: thus fastest recap you could possibly do a Falcon and
Speaker 7: Winter Soldier.
Speaker 5: It really it was.
Speaker 7: It was literally just him being like, if you didn't
Speaker 7: se the TV show, don't wry we it's gonna catch
Speaker 7: up real quick on what happened and go. And because
Speaker 7: of that, I think, and because you don't integrate enough,
Speaker 7: Like I would have loved to have seen Sam call
Speaker 7: his sister.
Speaker 8: I loved his sister in that show. She was like
Speaker 8: one of my favorite parts.
Speaker 4: But she was not in this movie, not.
Speaker 8: Mentioned, not called when he's coming into stress.
Speaker 7: These other characters that we have, like if I think
Speaker 7: like black Panthers, to me, it's top, it's upper echelons.
Speaker 8: It is one of the top MC of course.
Speaker 7: And in that film, you have a set of characters
Speaker 7: that are family and friends and love interest. You have
Speaker 7: a king trying to step into this like new role.
Speaker 7: He's coming off of uh A civil war. We has
Speaker 7: this great arc of basically going from Brady injured prince
Speaker 7: to confident leader.
Speaker 8: What is Sam's arc here.
Speaker 7: There's no change to this. He doesn't He's not different
Speaker 7: from when he started. And the goal of this movie
Speaker 7: is Sam understanding that he's different than Steve and being
Speaker 7: okay with that was the goal of season one of
Speaker 7: Captain America, Win your Soldier, And so if you follow both,
Speaker 7: then you're like, what did I watch this movie for?
Speaker 4: Okay?
Speaker 3: Let Well one, I would definitely bra watch this movie
Speaker 3: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
Speaker 4: Are you going to rewatch this movie? Are you going
Speaker 4: to rewatch this movie if somebody said.
Speaker 2: To, because I'm a sicko and I do watch.
Speaker 4: Me too, I rewatch. I'm a sick to I rewatch.
Speaker 3: The reason I rewatched this movie is, look, Joel, you
Speaker 3: are such a thoughtful cryptic when you come to this
Speaker 3: idea of like the narrative of the fight scenes and
Speaker 3: like where what does it tell us about the characters?
Speaker 3: The truth is, sometimes I do love to think about
Speaker 3: things like that, and sometimes I just love to see
Speaker 3: somebody like do a sick head kick.
Speaker 7: I want two, maybe three great stunts in this film. However,
Speaker 7: Anthony Mackie, and again not to dump on Anthony Mackie,
Speaker 7: I think you're a fine, actor sir doesn't have the listen.
Speaker 7: We know there's like three ways to film a punch
Speaker 7: to make it look impactful. It was like, overall the
Speaker 7: fights weren't giving holy shit.
Speaker 4: I don't know, Okay.
Speaker 3: I find that very interesting because I personally thought that
Speaker 3: the action was like a standout part of this and
Speaker 3: something that I thought was really interesting that felt more
Speaker 3: like akin to the TV shows and.
Speaker 4: The dead evil of it all.
Speaker 3: I felt like the action in this felt way more
Speaker 3: violent and like I could feel the punches than your
Speaker 3: usual MCU movie where I feel like everybody's superpowered, everybody
Speaker 3: is like kicking each other and nothing really happens. I
Speaker 3: felt like in this I could I could feel the fights,
Speaker 3: I could feel the punches, I could feel the impact
Speaker 3: in a way that I think fit into what they
Speaker 3: were trying to do with this movie, which is take
Speaker 3: it back to that grounded space.
Speaker 4: Now, I'm going to ask you guys a question, because
Speaker 4: I think this is something we.
Speaker 1: I do agree with you.
Speaker 2: I don't think that Mackie, I don't think that Sam
Speaker 2: has I think the arc clearly was intended to be
Speaker 2: Guy doesn't feel like he can lead the Avengers. Guy
Speaker 2: now feels like he can lead the Avengers, right, that
Speaker 2: was supposed to be the arc.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 2: Again, to take this movie as it is, Sadly, I
Speaker 2: do think that it is a sad reflection on our
Speaker 2: culture that they clearly retooled this movie to give.
Speaker 1: Thunderbolt Ross the arc.
Speaker 2: Like the arc is Thunderbolt Ross. The arc is a
Speaker 2: redemption arc of thunderbul Ross, who's a good man and
Speaker 2: you got to find the good in him.
Speaker 5: Sadly, Yeah, and sadly.
Speaker 2: I think that this movie was clearly significantly retooled so
Speaker 2: that Sam would be the vehicle of Ross's redemption rather
Speaker 2: than the agent of whatever his transformation he was gonna
Speaker 2: go under. And I think that fucking sucks. And I
Speaker 2: think that that significantly, in my eyes, weakens the movie
Speaker 2: and makes it like pretty jarring in that sense. But
Speaker 2: I also think that it is a pretty accurate reflection
Speaker 2: of you know, where we are so in his society
Speaker 2: in the year twenty twenty five.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after our.
Speaker 2: Word from our sponsors.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I want to ask you guys a question because
Speaker 9: Sarah is something we haven't talked about here, which is
Speaker 9: like the kang of it all, like, this movie is
Speaker 9: coming out post what was essentially supposed to be the setup.
Speaker 4: For in the wider MCU.
Speaker 3: Of this new huge villain of Kang, the conqueror of
Speaker 3: all the Kangs, the Council of Kangs. We know that's
Speaker 3: not happening now. How much of that do you think
Speaker 3: enough this movie or whatever the movie was meant to
Speaker 3: be about, because I do think that was probably a
Speaker 3: massive change for them, because this would have had to
Speaker 3: deal with that post Quantumania.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and they're making this in the chaos of because
Speaker 7: according to like Disney execs and if read the articles
Speaker 7: and stuff, they were like shocked that people didn't like
Speaker 7: what they thought they had a hit, and they did.
Speaker 4: They thought they were doing exact Yeah.
Speaker 7: So if you're making a film in the middle of
Speaker 7: and and you're like we have a hit and everyone's
Speaker 7: like no, we hate You're like shit, everything has to change,
Speaker 7: and then you have a legal court case where this
Speaker 7: main character, it probably did impact it, but I think
Speaker 7: based off the way the MCU is set up.
Speaker 8: It shouldn't have impacted it to such a degree.
Speaker 7: If because Thunderbolt Ross was always supposed to be like
Speaker 7: you're you're big, bad in this movie, right, I don't
Speaker 7: think it was originally King, and so if that's the case,
Speaker 7: then Kang is a side thing. Maybe there's like a
Speaker 7: side element, but most of these movies should be able
Speaker 7: to exist as standalone properties. And I think if like
Speaker 7: it was, they put back in there exactly like if
Speaker 7: Thanos comes in, he does damage when he's there, but
Speaker 7: if he's not there, then he should be a secondary thought.
Speaker 8: I hope that's not what affected it.
Speaker 7: I don't see why it should have been such an
Speaker 7: impactful thing.
Speaker 3: I just think like they were trying to set up
Speaker 3: a new Fanos esque villain. So I think, for example,
Speaker 3: post credit scene, probably who the leader was have been
Speaker 3: warning about. I think that the world's coming together to
Speaker 3: have this kind of treaty may not have been about
Speaker 3: Celestial Island if Kang was the threat that we thought
Speaker 3: he was going to be, I think that they were
Speaker 3: in an unusual situation with this movie. And I will
Speaker 3: say I also think that it was pretty clear that
Speaker 3: at some point Marvel was not as committed to this
Speaker 3: movie as Thunderbolts. There was no it was kind of
Speaker 3: crazy that the super Bowl didn't have a spot for
Speaker 3: this movie.
Speaker 4: I was coming out, you know, a week after.
Speaker 2: That.
Speaker 3: But also I think what they're doing is I think
Speaker 3: what they're doing is which they used to do with
Speaker 3: them seeing movies too. I think that they're like, here's
Speaker 3: a trailer. If you want to go see the movie,
Speaker 3: go see it. Hopefully it will find its audience and
Speaker 3: it will become like a bit of a you know,
Speaker 3: a word of mouth success, or people will like it
Speaker 3: or they won't like it. What I find interesting though,
Speaker 3: is I was thinking about this on the way homes.
Speaker 3: How much did this movie cost? Because what we've all
Speaker 3: wanted is like a smaller, more pulled back MCU little
Speaker 3: weird adventures as you do your huge, big movies. I
Speaker 3: think this fits into that, though it is definitely more
Speaker 3: of like a B grade movie than your best MCU movies.
Speaker 3: But if this movie still costs like two hundred and
Speaker 3: fifty million dollars, then what are you doing? That's what
Speaker 3: I think the big problem is is like can the
Speaker 3: MCU make smaller, more intimate.
Speaker 4: More kind of whole movies.
Speaker 3: And I will say I did think this felt like
Speaker 3: a movie where everything was tied up, which becomes an
Speaker 3: issue if people want those movies and we've had this
Speaker 3: since I mean spider Man, the last spider Man movie,
Speaker 3: the last toime olin spider Man movie, everything since then
Speaker 3: has felt like it's meant to change the game.
Speaker 4: And it all gets tied up within the movie.
Speaker 3: And I will say this does that too in a
Speaker 3: way that I felt like probably made this a better
Speaker 3: movie rather than trying to set up something much, much bigger.
Speaker 3: Obviously Avengers is gonna happen, but I'm interested because it
Speaker 3: also probably still costs three hundred million dollars.
Speaker 4: So in that case, like.
Speaker 3: What's the point of making a smaller movie if you're
Speaker 3: still spending all this money on it, and then you're
Speaker 3: gonna not do a real kind of massive push publicity wise.
Speaker 3: You know, this has been quite a small publicity trail,
Speaker 3: and I didn't even know that last night was the
Speaker 3: world premiere. Usually those things are very violent. Yeah, last
Speaker 3: night was the world premier, that exactly, and that that
Speaker 3: is why that's why our screenings were last night, so
Speaker 3: the social embargo could drop after the premiere.
Speaker 4: And I think there's something I think one they.
Speaker 3: Knew because of like as we talked about, like there
Speaker 3: is a lot of controversies this movie is people are
Speaker 3: calling the.
Speaker 4: Boycott this movie.
Speaker 3: Like there is a lot going on, So I think
Speaker 3: that pushing forward for Thunderbolts, I understand it, But I
Speaker 3: just think that there's a muckiness around this movie that
Speaker 3: I don't I don't get what they were going for,
Speaker 3: like commit either way.
Speaker 1: I just think that they can't.
Speaker 2: Like I think that they maybe, you know, the original
Speaker 2: whatever previous cuts existed were probably like a little more
Speaker 2: whatever progressive, hard hitting something had a more of a message.
Speaker 2: But I think we're just like in an environment now
Speaker 2: where Disney is terrified they just put down a shareholder
Speaker 2: revolt by right will you know, right wing very hard
Speaker 2: figures within within their investor base. We're under a administration
Speaker 2: that is looking to like attack dog like anything that
Speaker 2: they disagree with, and I think they're just trying to like,
Speaker 2: let's just get this movie out there and like have
Speaker 2: hopefully have no one notice it too much.
Speaker 3: That is, I think I think that the feeling is
Speaker 3: put this movie out and then maybe it will find
Speaker 3: its audience after rule. But I think that the MCU
Speaker 3: is in a place, and Disney is in a place,
Speaker 3: and the world is in a place where we shouldn't
Speaker 3: be doing that with movies. Make the best movie. And
Speaker 3: I say that as somebody who did enjoy this movie.
Speaker 3: Actually I thought it was I kind of had a
Speaker 3: good time watching this movie.
Speaker 1: We also live in a world in which, like a major,
Speaker 1: a major.
Speaker 2: World spanning tech company renamed the Gulf of Mexico the
Speaker 2: Gulf of America because people because kiss the Ring like
Speaker 2: this is this.
Speaker 5: Is very unfortunately where we are.
Speaker 2: I think where we are at, and I think that
Speaker 2: this movie, in a lot of subtle ways, is a
Speaker 2: reflection of that and maybe the best they could have
Speaker 2: done under the circumstance.
Speaker 6: Does Marvel wish this came out last year like originally intended?
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, absolutely they wish.
Speaker 4: I think they wish it came out.
Speaker 5: They wish it came out in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3: I was gonna say they wish they wish this came Dude,
Speaker 3: do you understand how long it took them to have,
Speaker 3: Like it took so long for Black Panther to come out,
Speaker 3: It took so long for Captain Marvel.
Speaker 4: To come out, Like they are still playing catch.
Speaker 3: Up on having movies that are not led by white
Speaker 3: people and not led by white men, and are.
Speaker 2: A waging internal fights with whether or not they should
Speaker 2: do it, like you know again, like the part of
Speaker 2: that investor rebellion was spearheaded by a guy who was like,
Speaker 2: we shouldn't do Black Panther.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he didn't want Black Panther. He didn't want Captain Marvel.
Speaker 3: And I think also something that's really funny in that state,
Speaker 3: in that part of the conversation is like, even Sam
Speaker 3: becoming Captain America in the comics took like fifty years,
Speaker 3: even though every single comics person was like, oh, this
Speaker 3: is Steve's best friend. Of course when Steve leaves in
Speaker 3: the eighties, in the nineties, this is gonna be the
Speaker 3: guy who becomes Captain America. People wrote letters about it.
Speaker 3: Nick was a big proponent of it. There has always
Speaker 3: been this fandom. So even in and that way, Sam
Speaker 3: becoming Captain America not until like twenty fourteen in the
Speaker 3: Rick Cremmendu Carls Pacheco stuff, which they get a really
Speaker 3: interesting thanks actually at the end of the movie that
Speaker 3: was a new kind of Marvel thanks about how the
Speaker 3: important input that they kind of gave, which was more
Speaker 3: about what they took from the comics, But like even
Speaker 3: that was so late, and then the next Run of
Speaker 3: the Guy who took it over with Nick Spenser was
Speaker 3: very controversial and not even particularly well done. So they're
Speaker 3: playing catch up in the comics and then the movies
Speaker 3: are playing catch up, and Jason, I think you really
Speaker 3: summed it up. They wish they this came out in
Speaker 3: twenty fourteen. This is like a Phase two. This is
Speaker 3: like a Phase two mid movie that could have been
Speaker 3: kind of radical if Sam was Captain America back then.
Speaker 3: You know, now we stand in this place where as
Speaker 3: Joelle and Aaron mentioned, like almost like what is the
Speaker 3: point of a movie like this right now?
Speaker 4: Like is it a great movie? Does it make a statement?
Speaker 4: Is it either one? Like it is a do.
Speaker 1: Any of that? Trying not to make a statement and
Speaker 1: to do that just simple yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know. Joe'll go for it.
Speaker 7: I was the inn just fails to be entertaining because
Speaker 7: I agree with you, Rosie. If you're not going to
Speaker 7: go political, that's fine, I get it. I understand your business.
Speaker 7: You gotta keep pushing forward. But then this should be
Speaker 7: the most bombastic, intense fight scenes, like high drama, like
Speaker 7: give Sam a love interest, do wealthing that makes it
Speaker 7: like would have been.
Speaker 3: So please especially because I thought that the woman I
Speaker 3: thought the actress and the character of the presidential Aid Taylor,
Speaker 3: I thought she was so great and was.
Speaker 2: Fingers interactions script about there is a script where they
Speaker 2: do not just that probably tested like I.
Speaker 3: Felt like there was a script as well where she
Speaker 3: knew what Ross was doing or she had some insight
Speaker 3: into it that felt like there was a connection there
Speaker 3: that I would have loved to see explored. And I
Speaker 3: also think another interesting thing about this movie, and I
Speaker 3: think Jason, you really summed it up with What's going
Speaker 3: on in the world, is like what they've really done
Speaker 3: here is they've left the movie open for interpretation, because
Speaker 3: there's a version of this movie where you still have that,
Speaker 3: you know. They definitely felt like they were doing something
Speaker 3: very radical. And they showed Sam on the other side
Speaker 3: of the bars in the raft, and they showed Thunderbolt
Speaker 3: in the prison like they wanted to say, look at
Speaker 3: how things have changed. Look at this man who was
Speaker 3: one time in here and now he is the one
Speaker 3: who's seeing it. They want you to be able to
Speaker 3: read it that way. They want to have you know,
Speaker 3: Sabra in there, but not ever name her Sabra and
Speaker 3: change her backstory. But there are still like so many
Speaker 3: people who will not watch this movie because of what
Speaker 3: that means. And I personally do not think that they
Speaker 3: needed to keep her in the movie. If you're gonna
Speaker 3: edit out, if you're not going to commit again to
Speaker 3: what that character means, which does have a very racist history,
Speaker 3: is like, then don't put her in the movie. But
Speaker 3: then they keep her in the movie and they kind
Speaker 3: of re interpret her and then also nerf the character,
Speaker 3: like there's no point in the character you can cut
Speaker 3: her out of pretty much.
Speaker 6: Again, only there was some government agent could be female
Speaker 6: that Falcon already had some backstory with. Uh yeah, geez,
Speaker 6: I wonder if there was someone they could have used there, huh.
Speaker 3: I mean, imagine how cool it would have been, like
Speaker 3: if we'd have had Maria, I mean, you know, Monica
Speaker 3: Rambow in this movie. Like, but again, I do think
Speaker 3: that there was a fear of turning this into a
Speaker 3: black movie for.
Speaker 7: Some reason, and I don't know why, and I think
Speaker 7: ironically insanity.
Speaker 3: Don't even get me started. They don't know what they're
Speaker 3: doing over there when.
Speaker 2: It was again in African country, you know what I mean, Like.
Speaker 10: They even mentioned they even say they say, Joel, they say,
Speaker 10: if we should own Adamantium because Wakanda is an isolationist
Speaker 10: like nation that will not you know, that will not
Speaker 10: share it.
Speaker 4: That's why they want to own Adamantium.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: So I think that you guys, I love this podcast
Speaker 4: because you mean.
Speaker 3: It's mutually like I went to this movie and I thought,
Speaker 3: you know what, that's the action movie. Cool, it's an
Speaker 3: MCU movie. It's like the MCU. It's not the weird
Speaker 3: stuff that I love. But I but I actually think
Speaker 3: that we've touched on something very interesting, which is kind
Speaker 3: of like the muddled messaging of this movie and how
Speaker 3: the journey that it's been on has left it without
Speaker 3: any sharp edges that could have potentially I mean, people
Speaker 3: love Captain America in the Winter Soldia.
Speaker 4: But they love it it's political.
Speaker 2: Well, I think the sharp edges are there, it's just
Speaker 2: that you have to actually like look through the matrix
Speaker 2: to see them again. They talk pretty They talked pretty
Speaker 2: openly in this movie about how Thunderbolt Ross destroyed Harlem
Speaker 2: and is a fuck.
Speaker 1: Up and that is now president.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 2: They they they lay into him very very openly, or
Speaker 2: like this guy fucked up a million ways to Sunday,
Speaker 2: destroyed an entire neighborhood in fucking New York, and now
Speaker 2: he's my boss because he's the like they and so
Speaker 2: that's there, Like he has a black ops prison where
Speaker 2: he keeps somebody who keeps he keeps his half and
Speaker 2: the guy who got him like elected president exactly.
Speaker 3: And also the uh the watch the Virginia based secret prison.
Speaker 4: Guess where it was actually Sam Pedro baby they found.
Speaker 4: I was. I saw it. I was like, that's my
Speaker 4: local park.
Speaker 5: I love this for me.
Speaker 3: But yeah, actually this conversation, guys, I'm gonna have to
Speaker 3: go see it again and kind of work out where
Speaker 3: I land on it, because I I do think, Joelle,
Speaker 3: let's go and watch it for the action and just
Speaker 3: go in with that, because I actually think it's I
Speaker 3: think the action is really good, and I think, aside
Speaker 3: from everything else, the chemistry between Joaquin and Sam is
Speaker 3: all so really good.
Speaker 4: I want to see them together again.
Speaker 3: I love Isaiah, but I'm now very interested in.
Speaker 4: How the movie.
Speaker 3: Reflects twenty twenty five as like a piece of cinema
Speaker 3: where you have to where we're living in a world
Speaker 3: where one of the biggest tech companies changed the name
Speaker 3: of the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America
Speaker 3: to like for no reason.
Speaker 4: They didn't have to do it, there was no law.
Speaker 3: I think this movie stands in a very interesting place, Jason,
Speaker 3: as you say, as a movie that kind of reflects
Speaker 3: where we're at, where you can make a statement, but
Speaker 3: then you kind of have to walk it back. And
Speaker 3: obviously we actually saw that as we talked about at
Speaker 3: the beginning. But like something I wrote about in my
Speaker 3: piece is like Anthony Mackie understands and understood that Captain
Speaker 3: America is not about representing America. It's about representing the
Speaker 3: best of the people, and it's not always about aligning
Speaker 3: with the government. And when he said that, something that
Speaker 3: is true to the comics and a major part of
Speaker 3: Captain America's history, he had to go on an apology
Speaker 3: tour saying that he loves America and that he was
Speaker 3: against the troops.
Speaker 4: So I think that like this is coming.
Speaker 3: Out just like a completely wild time and the movie
Speaker 3: is a.
Speaker 4: Reflection of that.
Speaker 2: Actually, Well, thank you Joel and Aaron for joining us.
Speaker 2: In the next few episodes of Extra Vision, we're diving
Speaker 2: into the finale of your friendly neighborhood spider Man and
Speaker 2: getting you prepped for Disney Plus's upcoming Garret obleboard hand.
Speaker 1: That's a for this episode. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2: Bye x ray Vision is hosted by Jason Sepcion and
Speaker 2: Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Abusafar.
Speaker 3: Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay wag.
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
Speaker 2: songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 3: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Speaker 3: Heidi Our discorded moderate though