1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,836 --> 00:00:35,276 Speaker 2: I experience disagreement as a kind of closeness, and that 3 00:00:35,436 --> 00:00:39,316 Speaker 2: means sometimes being in touch with yourself, being in touch 4 00:00:39,396 --> 00:00:43,276 Speaker 2: with others, with the world around you, at such proximity 5 00:00:43,636 --> 00:00:48,836 Speaker 2: that it could hurt. And it's in that that I 6 00:00:48,876 --> 00:00:53,596 Speaker 2: think you allow yourself to live more fully, that you 7 00:00:53,676 --> 00:00:57,796 Speaker 2: allow relationships to develop more richly. And it's that vision 8 00:00:57,836 --> 00:00:59,076 Speaker 2: of life that I'm attracted to. 9 00:00:59,996 --> 00:01:03,756 Speaker 1: Boso is a two time World Debate champion and the 10 00:01:03,796 --> 00:01:07,596 Speaker 1: author of the book Good Arguments, How Debate teaches us 11 00:01:07,636 --> 00:01:11,556 Speaker 1: to listen and be heard in everyday life. Many of 12 00:01:11,636 --> 00:01:15,036 Speaker 1: us try to avoid conflict, but bo makes a strong 13 00:01:15,116 --> 00:01:19,636 Speaker 1: case for how disagreements can actually enrich our lives. The key, 14 00:01:19,676 --> 00:01:22,916 Speaker 1: he says, is to learn how to disagree, and Bo 15 00:01:23,116 --> 00:01:26,116 Speaker 1: says it actually starts with learning how to listen. 16 00:01:27,076 --> 00:01:30,756 Speaker 2: Listening is not just a virtuous thing to do. It 17 00:01:30,836 --> 00:01:34,516 Speaker 2: has a competitive purpose, which is you're never going to 18 00:01:34,636 --> 00:01:38,996 Speaker 2: change someone's mind unless they feel like your arguments connected 19 00:01:39,036 --> 00:01:43,436 Speaker 2: with their concerns. So listening is the collaborative process of 20 00:01:44,156 --> 00:01:49,276 Speaker 2: bringing the other person's ideas into full view, so you 21 00:01:49,396 --> 00:01:51,556 Speaker 2: know what they are, you know what you're working with. 22 00:01:54,716 --> 00:01:58,836 Speaker 1: On today's episode, a World champion debator teaches us how 23 00:01:58,876 --> 00:02:03,436 Speaker 1: to disagree better. I'm maya Shunker and this is a 24 00:02:03,476 --> 00:02:06,396 Speaker 1: slight change of plans. I show about who we are 25 00:02:06,556 --> 00:02:28,836 Speaker 1: and who we become in the face of a big change. 26 00:02:29,556 --> 00:02:31,996 Speaker 1: One reason I was drawn to both story is that 27 00:02:32,036 --> 00:02:36,316 Speaker 1: he actually spent much of his childhood trying to avoid disagreements, 28 00:02:36,556 --> 00:02:38,596 Speaker 1: which is not what I would have expected to hear 29 00:02:38,796 --> 00:02:40,436 Speaker 1: from a world champion debater. 30 00:02:41,636 --> 00:02:46,316 Speaker 2: So I moved from South Korea to Australia when I 31 00:02:46,436 --> 00:02:51,996 Speaker 2: was eight without speaking English, and I quickly learned that 32 00:02:52,156 --> 00:02:56,996 Speaker 2: the hardest part of crossing language lines was adjusting to 33 00:02:57,676 --> 00:03:02,276 Speaker 2: real life conversation, and that the hardest conversations to adjust 34 00:03:02,316 --> 00:03:07,196 Speaker 2: to were disagreements. That was when the rhythms of ordinary 35 00:03:07,276 --> 00:03:13,316 Speaker 2: speech broke down, when passions ran, People's facial expressions stopped 36 00:03:13,356 --> 00:03:17,476 Speaker 2: matching what was coming out of their mouths, and everyone interrupted. 37 00:03:18,276 --> 00:03:22,636 Speaker 2: And so there was that difficulty. But there was also 38 00:03:23,316 --> 00:03:26,836 Speaker 2: the sense that I had, as a newcomer to a place, 39 00:03:27,116 --> 00:03:33,476 Speaker 2: that my belonging there was conditional. It was conditional on 40 00:03:33,636 --> 00:03:37,956 Speaker 2: not raising my voice too loud or rocking the boat, 41 00:03:39,316 --> 00:03:44,476 Speaker 2: and I felt that in disagreement, in revealing myself to 42 00:03:44,516 --> 00:03:49,196 Speaker 2: the other I could unsettle any belonging I'd been able 43 00:03:49,236 --> 00:03:52,116 Speaker 2: to achieve up to that point. And the combination of 44 00:03:52,156 --> 00:03:56,236 Speaker 2: those two things made me resolved to be very agreeable. 45 00:03:57,036 --> 00:03:59,996 Speaker 2: And that's to nod, to smile, and to get along. 46 00:04:01,156 --> 00:04:03,636 Speaker 1: And how did it feel for you, as a young 47 00:04:03,756 --> 00:04:07,396 Speaker 1: child to have to be so agreeable all the time, 48 00:04:07,636 --> 00:04:08,996 Speaker 1: to agree with everyone all the time? 49 00:04:09,916 --> 00:04:13,156 Speaker 2: You know, when you don't give voice to a thought 50 00:04:13,196 --> 00:04:17,236 Speaker 2: that you have, it sometimes dies, which is a terrifying 51 00:04:17,316 --> 00:04:21,476 Speaker 2: thing that when you have a reaction and you question 52 00:04:21,636 --> 00:04:25,036 Speaker 2: it enough or you tuck it away enough that part 53 00:04:25,076 --> 00:04:29,036 Speaker 2: of your personality becomes harder to access, really a kind 54 00:04:29,076 --> 00:04:33,556 Speaker 2: of self denial, a self betrayal. The thing that made 55 00:04:33,596 --> 00:04:37,516 Speaker 2: that okay was that it felt like progress, and it 56 00:04:37,556 --> 00:04:42,476 Speaker 2: was progressed towards assimilation, and it was progressed towards fitting in, 57 00:04:43,436 --> 00:04:52,396 Speaker 2: gaining friends, accumulating sleepovers yea, and people to do snack 58 00:04:52,556 --> 00:04:57,236 Speaker 2: swaps with during lunchtime. And I might have even felt that. 59 00:04:57,756 --> 00:05:00,356 Speaker 2: You know, it's a huge sacrifice for the family to 60 00:05:00,476 --> 00:05:04,836 Speaker 2: move countries, and some of it on account of my education. 61 00:05:06,156 --> 00:05:10,076 Speaker 2: I wonder whether when my parents, perfectly innocent asked things 62 00:05:10,156 --> 00:05:13,276 Speaker 2: like how are things at school, are you making friends? 63 00:05:14,036 --> 00:05:16,956 Speaker 2: That made it feel like an achievement. And so even 64 00:05:16,996 --> 00:05:20,476 Speaker 2: as I was getting further away from myself and losing 65 00:05:20,556 --> 00:05:24,916 Speaker 2: parts of myself, it felt like I was gaining something else, 66 00:05:25,116 --> 00:05:27,756 Speaker 2: and perhaps at that moment that that something else was 67 00:05:27,796 --> 00:05:32,356 Speaker 2: more important than speaking up for myself. And the thing 68 00:05:32,436 --> 00:05:35,836 Speaker 2: that broke me out of that was a promise that 69 00:05:35,956 --> 00:05:41,156 Speaker 2: my fifth grade teacher made me, which was that in debate, 70 00:05:41,276 --> 00:05:45,316 Speaker 2: when one person speaks, no one else does. And that 71 00:05:45,396 --> 00:05:49,956 Speaker 2: promise of time of attention it made me feel as 72 00:05:50,036 --> 00:05:55,396 Speaker 2: though I might be heard, not just in agreement or assent, 73 00:05:55,636 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 2: but in disagreement to So that's how I got started. 74 00:06:00,196 --> 00:06:04,276 Speaker 1: Bring me back to that first moment where you found 75 00:06:04,636 --> 00:06:10,076 Speaker 1: yourself articulating opinions and arguing for a point. I mean, 76 00:06:10,516 --> 00:06:13,196 Speaker 1: what did that feel like for you, Because that's another 77 00:06:13,316 --> 00:06:16,556 Speaker 1: form of progress, that's another kind of achievement, and it 78 00:06:16,596 --> 00:06:19,076 Speaker 1: was one that you had buried for so long. But 79 00:06:19,116 --> 00:06:20,476 Speaker 1: I wonder if you can set the scene for me 80 00:06:20,596 --> 00:06:23,116 Speaker 1: when you realized how empowering it was to hear your 81 00:06:23,196 --> 00:06:23,796 Speaker 1: voice heard. 82 00:06:24,756 --> 00:06:28,476 Speaker 2: So the first debate was on the topic that we 83 00:06:28,516 --> 00:06:32,756 Speaker 2: should ban all zoos, and I was the first affirmative speaker. 84 00:06:33,076 --> 00:06:35,636 Speaker 1: And so by affirmative, you mean you have to agree 85 00:06:35,716 --> 00:06:36,876 Speaker 1: with banning all the zoos. 86 00:06:37,236 --> 00:06:40,076 Speaker 2: That's right. Okay, that's right. So you're proposing that we 87 00:06:40,196 --> 00:06:44,316 Speaker 2: do this, and so there's a period of preparation. You 88 00:06:44,396 --> 00:06:46,796 Speaker 2: get about a week, so you're sitting with this topic 89 00:06:46,876 --> 00:06:51,636 Speaker 2: and you have time to look up stories of leopards 90 00:06:51,676 --> 00:06:55,756 Speaker 2: and captivity and developing strong feelings about that, and you 91 00:06:55,836 --> 00:06:58,796 Speaker 2: write out your speech. And all of that was pretty 92 00:06:58,796 --> 00:07:03,756 Speaker 2: familiar because you do essay writing and you do schoolwork, 93 00:07:05,036 --> 00:07:10,196 Speaker 2: and I had almost put off the knowledge that I'm 94 00:07:10,196 --> 00:07:12,196 Speaker 2: going to have to own this in a different way. 95 00:07:13,356 --> 00:07:17,556 Speaker 2: But that day comes and it's the school hall. It's 96 00:07:17,636 --> 00:07:21,236 Speaker 2: old fashioned, almost a kind of a large shed type 97 00:07:21,636 --> 00:07:26,116 Speaker 2: corrugated iron roof. There's rainfalling overhead. It's a kind of 98 00:07:26,196 --> 00:07:29,996 Speaker 2: a dramatic setting in my mind still, and I remember 99 00:07:30,036 --> 00:07:34,836 Speaker 2: going up on stage and looking at this audience of 100 00:07:34,876 --> 00:07:39,396 Speaker 2: about fifty kids seated in these snaking rows on the floor, 101 00:07:40,756 --> 00:07:44,796 Speaker 2: and I remember starting to speak and noticing all of 102 00:07:44,836 --> 00:07:49,956 Speaker 2: these small changes in the audience. So you saw a 103 00:07:49,996 --> 00:07:53,356 Speaker 2: WinCE of recognition in the corner of someone's eye, or 104 00:07:54,236 --> 00:07:58,436 Speaker 2: you saw one person unfold their arms, or another person 105 00:07:58,476 --> 00:08:00,356 Speaker 2: turned to the person next to them and say, are 106 00:08:00,356 --> 00:08:05,636 Speaker 2: you hearing this? And that moment carried the realization. It 107 00:08:05,716 --> 00:08:09,716 Speaker 2: made me think that I could change something about the 108 00:08:09,756 --> 00:08:15,476 Speaker 2: world through the power of speech and language. And it was, 109 00:08:15,516 --> 00:08:18,596 Speaker 2: in some ways the opposite of the achievement I had 110 00:08:18,876 --> 00:08:22,076 Speaker 2: been working towards on the other end, which is how 111 00:08:22,076 --> 00:08:25,996 Speaker 2: do I change myself around the expectation of others? How 112 00:08:26,036 --> 00:08:31,316 Speaker 2: do I change myself to fit in these surfaces that 113 00:08:31,476 --> 00:08:38,596 Speaker 2: felt so fixed in place, And it felt like asking 114 00:08:38,676 --> 00:08:45,676 Speaker 2: the world to see me in my entirety as someone 115 00:08:45,756 --> 00:08:51,836 Speaker 2: with opinions, someone capable of asking, presuming to ask that 116 00:08:51,916 --> 00:08:55,836 Speaker 2: people change their mind for me, and to have some 117 00:08:56,036 --> 00:08:59,316 Speaker 2: reaction to that. Yeah, that was an amazing thing. 118 00:09:00,556 --> 00:09:03,196 Speaker 1: You know, it's so interesting to hear about your childhood 119 00:09:03,196 --> 00:09:06,636 Speaker 1: experience because in many ways I've actually had the opposite 120 00:09:06,676 --> 00:09:10,476 Speaker 1: evolution as you. So as a kid, I relished a 121 00:09:10,476 --> 00:09:13,316 Speaker 1: good debate. I mean, I argued so much that my 122 00:09:13,436 --> 00:09:16,476 Speaker 1: parents would tell me, Maya, you should try and become 123 00:09:16,516 --> 00:09:18,996 Speaker 1: a lawyer and you grow up, because at least then 124 00:09:19,036 --> 00:09:21,836 Speaker 1: you'll make a living off of this incredibly annoying feature 125 00:09:21,996 --> 00:09:25,356 Speaker 1: of your personality. So I'm the youngest of four kids, 126 00:09:25,396 --> 00:09:28,236 Speaker 1: maybe arguing was my way of being heard in this large, 127 00:09:28,236 --> 00:09:32,876 Speaker 1: boisterous family. But interestingly, Bo, what's happened is, over time, 128 00:09:32,956 --> 00:09:34,876 Speaker 1: I feel like I've lost a lot of my will 129 00:09:34,916 --> 00:09:39,036 Speaker 1: to argue, Like I find myself giving up more easily, 130 00:09:39,156 --> 00:09:44,516 Speaker 1: conceding easily because it just feels exhausting. I guess like 131 00:09:44,596 --> 00:09:47,756 Speaker 1: it often at times just feels like maybe it's not 132 00:09:47,796 --> 00:09:51,116 Speaker 1: worth it. And so in this moment, I would love 133 00:09:51,116 --> 00:09:54,796 Speaker 1: for you to convince me, Bo, why is arguing important 134 00:09:55,036 --> 00:09:58,996 Speaker 1: and what are the costs of not arguing? Because I 135 00:09:58,996 --> 00:10:01,116 Speaker 1: need you to light that fire that I had under 136 00:10:01,156 --> 00:10:04,476 Speaker 1: me and childhood, reignite the flames so that I can, 137 00:10:04,596 --> 00:10:07,316 Speaker 1: you know, still bring that same kind of passion to 138 00:10:07,436 --> 00:10:08,676 Speaker 1: day to day discourse. 139 00:10:09,236 --> 00:10:11,916 Speaker 2: You know, I feel that so acutely. I think there 140 00:10:11,916 --> 00:10:16,356 Speaker 2: are so many reasons and different kinds of pressures to 141 00:10:16,716 --> 00:10:20,596 Speaker 2: give up on disagreement. There are personal pressures if you're 142 00:10:20,596 --> 00:10:23,796 Speaker 2: a shy person like I am. There are periods of 143 00:10:23,876 --> 00:10:26,356 Speaker 2: life where you want to be with like minded people 144 00:10:26,716 --> 00:10:28,716 Speaker 2: because you want to make progress and you want to 145 00:10:28,716 --> 00:10:32,436 Speaker 2: work on something together rather than just talk and disagree. 146 00:10:32,596 --> 00:10:36,316 Speaker 2: And then there's of course the political context, where nowadays 147 00:10:36,356 --> 00:10:40,116 Speaker 2: it's very hard to imagine disagreement as anything other than 148 00:10:40,156 --> 00:10:43,556 Speaker 2: a source of pain and division and maybe even an 149 00:10:43,596 --> 00:10:47,476 Speaker 2: existential threat to the fabric that holds our society together. 150 00:10:48,196 --> 00:10:51,796 Speaker 2: And the best argument I can give you for why 151 00:10:51,876 --> 00:10:55,996 Speaker 2: we should give good disagreement a chance is that it's 152 00:10:56,036 --> 00:11:01,316 Speaker 2: the key to a bigger life, one in which we 153 00:11:01,436 --> 00:11:07,436 Speaker 2: don't hold at bay the opinions, the impulses we have 154 00:11:07,476 --> 00:11:13,836 Speaker 2: that are inconvenient, where we don't hold other people at 155 00:11:14,236 --> 00:11:18,316 Speaker 2: enough of a distance that they can't hurt us. I 156 00:11:18,476 --> 00:11:23,156 Speaker 2: experience disagreement as a kind of closeness, and that means 157 00:11:23,156 --> 00:11:27,676 Speaker 2: sometimes being in touch with yourself, being in touch with others, 158 00:11:27,716 --> 00:11:31,756 Speaker 2: with the world around you, at such proximity that it 159 00:11:31,836 --> 00:11:38,076 Speaker 2: could hurt. And it's in that that I think you 160 00:11:38,196 --> 00:11:43,396 Speaker 2: allow yourself to live more fully, that you allow relationships 161 00:11:43,396 --> 00:11:48,996 Speaker 2: to develop more richly. And it's that vision of life 162 00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:49,916 Speaker 2: that I'm attracted to. 163 00:11:52,076 --> 00:11:54,436 Speaker 1: You also give us a handy framework in your book 164 00:11:55,156 --> 00:11:59,116 Speaker 1: for deciding what's even worth arguing over, and I really 165 00:11:59,156 --> 00:12:02,196 Speaker 1: appreciate this because you're saving us a lot of unnecessary 166 00:12:02,276 --> 00:12:06,156 Speaker 1: grief and frustration by at least living the spaces in 167 00:12:06,196 --> 00:12:10,236 Speaker 1: which we disagree. And so do you mind just walking 168 00:12:10,316 --> 00:12:12,196 Speaker 1: us through this checklist. 169 00:12:12,596 --> 00:12:16,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And you can believe everything I've said 170 00:12:16,716 --> 00:12:19,556 Speaker 2: up to now a bit too much. And I think 171 00:12:19,596 --> 00:12:22,556 Speaker 2: that's what happened to me, right, So you learn to 172 00:12:22,676 --> 00:12:27,476 Speaker 2: overcome your silence, and you know, people kind of point 173 00:12:27,516 --> 00:12:30,316 Speaker 2: you out as the debater who doesn't know how to stop. 174 00:12:30,396 --> 00:12:32,676 Speaker 2: And so it was born out of necessity for me, 175 00:12:33,076 --> 00:12:38,876 Speaker 2: this realization that it takes cleverness to know how to 176 00:12:38,996 --> 00:12:43,076 Speaker 2: argue any proposition, but it takes wisdom to know which 177 00:12:43,076 --> 00:12:44,836 Speaker 2: ones to argue and which to let go. 178 00:12:45,876 --> 00:12:49,916 Speaker 1: I love that complexity. I mean, these are the moments 179 00:12:49,956 --> 00:12:51,956 Speaker 1: that I relish on a slight change of plans where 180 00:12:52,316 --> 00:12:57,196 Speaker 1: the world champion debator comes on and shares that they 181 00:12:57,236 --> 00:12:59,676 Speaker 1: too have to be cautious because they're actually in one extreme. 182 00:13:00,076 --> 00:13:01,836 Speaker 1: And so there's this dance that we each play in 183 00:13:01,836 --> 00:13:05,116 Speaker 1: our own lives when it comes to disagreement and we 184 00:13:05,196 --> 00:13:08,236 Speaker 1: have to figure out where that happy equilibrium exists. 185 00:13:08,436 --> 00:13:08,916 Speaker 2: Yeah. 186 00:13:09,156 --> 00:13:12,836 Speaker 1: I just love when again, that kind of complexity is captured. 187 00:13:13,116 --> 00:13:15,516 Speaker 2: Complexity is a nice word for it. It's just you know, 188 00:13:15,596 --> 00:13:19,356 Speaker 2: you have to recover totally from these things sometimes. 189 00:13:19,476 --> 00:13:19,796 Speaker 1: Yeah. 190 00:13:19,996 --> 00:13:23,076 Speaker 2: One framework that I came up with is called the 191 00:13:23,156 --> 00:13:28,396 Speaker 2: Rissa framework, and it's a checklist to consult before going 192 00:13:28,436 --> 00:13:31,876 Speaker 2: into an argument, and so the components of risks are 193 00:13:31,876 --> 00:13:38,836 Speaker 2: are real, important, specific, and aligned. So the first question 194 00:13:38,916 --> 00:13:42,916 Speaker 2: you ask is is the disagreement between you and the 195 00:13:42,956 --> 00:13:47,916 Speaker 2: other side real or is it a misunderstanding or an 196 00:13:47,916 --> 00:13:50,916 Speaker 2: imagined slide So you thought they said something when in 197 00:13:50,956 --> 00:13:55,036 Speaker 2: fact they actually said something else, And launching into a 198 00:13:55,076 --> 00:13:59,396 Speaker 2: critique can actually generate its own argument, right when they 199 00:13:59,476 --> 00:14:03,276 Speaker 2: say you're being unreasonable or you're assuming bad intentions. So 200 00:14:03,476 --> 00:14:06,516 Speaker 2: you have to check whether it's a real disagreement, and 201 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:10,236 Speaker 2: then you ask is it important enough to you to 202 00:14:10,356 --> 00:14:13,396 Speaker 2: have the disagreement? And the way in which this one 203 00:14:13,476 --> 00:14:16,276 Speaker 2: goes wrong, I think is at the end of a 204 00:14:16,276 --> 00:14:20,596 Speaker 2: long day, we're feeling a little cranky, and so we 205 00:14:20,716 --> 00:14:25,036 Speaker 2: latch onto something, and the something becomes like a little 206 00:14:25,076 --> 00:14:30,196 Speaker 2: proxy battle for this emotional welfare that you want to 207 00:14:30,236 --> 00:14:32,876 Speaker 2: engage in at that time, And so there's a question 208 00:14:32,956 --> 00:14:36,356 Speaker 2: about whether the thing you're disagreeing about is really important 209 00:14:36,476 --> 00:14:38,996 Speaker 2: enough to justify that disagreement. 210 00:14:39,876 --> 00:14:42,916 Speaker 1: I feel like the colloquial version of that is looking 211 00:14:42,956 --> 00:14:45,596 Speaker 1: to pick a fight. I want to also say one thing, 212 00:14:45,596 --> 00:14:48,116 Speaker 1: which is I think in deciding whether the topic is important. 213 00:14:48,156 --> 00:14:51,076 Speaker 1: It's important that we don't confuse the importance of the 214 00:14:51,116 --> 00:14:54,156 Speaker 1: topic with the importance of the person to us. So 215 00:14:54,636 --> 00:14:57,116 Speaker 1: you might be talking to a loved one whose opinion 216 00:14:57,236 --> 00:14:59,836 Speaker 1: you really value, that really matters to you, or a 217 00:14:59,836 --> 00:15:05,796 Speaker 1: trusted colleague, but you still might deem the topic unimportant 218 00:15:05,876 --> 00:15:07,836 Speaker 1: enough that it's not worthy of debate. 219 00:15:08,636 --> 00:15:11,516 Speaker 2: I like that. I like that, you know. I think 220 00:15:11,596 --> 00:15:18,436 Speaker 2: disagreeing is one language of communication. It's one way of 221 00:15:18,596 --> 00:15:22,116 Speaker 2: talking about the things that matter in our relationships, and 222 00:15:23,036 --> 00:15:25,956 Speaker 2: it's the one that we sometimes reach for when the 223 00:15:26,036 --> 00:15:30,916 Speaker 2: emotions are running. And in that scenario where you pick 224 00:15:30,956 --> 00:15:34,916 Speaker 2: a fight because the other person's opinion matters to us 225 00:15:35,076 --> 00:15:39,156 Speaker 2: or we're feeling insecure about where our relationship is at, 226 00:15:39,676 --> 00:15:43,876 Speaker 2: the better thing there probably is to admit to those fears, 227 00:15:43,916 --> 00:15:46,956 Speaker 2: for example, just say to them, you know, just hear 228 00:15:47,036 --> 00:15:51,556 Speaker 2: me out here, rather than defaulting to disagreement as the 229 00:15:51,596 --> 00:15:56,796 Speaker 2: way in which we try and have that conversation. So, yeah, 230 00:15:56,796 --> 00:16:01,316 Speaker 2: I think that's a really interesting point and something that 231 00:16:01,356 --> 00:16:04,076 Speaker 2: I see all the time. And it's one reason why 232 00:16:05,156 --> 00:16:08,996 Speaker 2: disagreements with those whom we're closest to tend to go 233 00:16:10,196 --> 00:16:11,156 Speaker 2: the worst. 234 00:16:11,956 --> 00:16:15,436 Speaker 1: Because the receiver confuses the two as well. Exactly, It's like, 235 00:16:15,636 --> 00:16:17,596 Speaker 1: why aren't you willing to have this disagreement with me? 236 00:16:17,756 --> 00:16:18,796 Speaker 1: Do you not care about me? 237 00:16:18,996 --> 00:16:19,916 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely? 238 00:16:20,036 --> 00:16:22,196 Speaker 1: And so like you said, I think it could be 239 00:16:22,276 --> 00:16:24,396 Speaker 1: very helpful in those moments to tell the person, Look, 240 00:16:24,796 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 1: I really care about you. I really care about your 241 00:16:27,636 --> 00:16:31,036 Speaker 1: point of view. The reason I'm not engaging with this 242 00:16:31,116 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 1: particular disagreement is because I don't think it's important enough. 243 00:16:34,996 --> 00:16:37,036 Speaker 1: But that does not mean that I don't think you're 244 00:16:37,156 --> 00:16:38,716 Speaker 1: important enough. I really do. 245 00:16:38,916 --> 00:16:41,956 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's really helpful to name the difference 246 00:16:41,996 --> 00:16:45,836 Speaker 2: between importance of the topic versus importance of the people. 247 00:16:45,916 --> 00:16:47,676 Speaker 2: I don't think I had thought about it so clearly, 248 00:16:48,076 --> 00:16:49,036 Speaker 2: but I think it's helpful. 249 00:16:49,436 --> 00:16:52,316 Speaker 1: Okay, so far we've gone through R and I. So 250 00:16:52,636 --> 00:16:57,156 Speaker 1: is the disagreement real? And is the topic important enough? 251 00:16:57,516 --> 00:17:01,996 Speaker 2: Yeah? And then the third question is is the topic 252 00:17:02,116 --> 00:17:06,116 Speaker 2: is the subject of the disagreement specific enough? And here 253 00:17:06,316 --> 00:17:09,556 Speaker 2: you want to think about how much time you have 254 00:17:09,796 --> 00:17:13,356 Speaker 2: to have the dispute, how much bandwidth you have. So 255 00:17:13,516 --> 00:17:17,556 Speaker 2: if you're dropping off the kids for soccer practice and 256 00:17:17,636 --> 00:17:20,236 Speaker 2: you have five minutes before they have to leave, that's 257 00:17:20,276 --> 00:17:24,396 Speaker 2: not the time to talk about really fundamental disagreements you 258 00:17:24,476 --> 00:17:28,636 Speaker 2: might have about their education, right, and so are you 259 00:17:28,756 --> 00:17:32,556 Speaker 2: going to be able to resolve or to make progress 260 00:17:32,596 --> 00:17:35,796 Speaker 2: within the time and the constraints that you have, And 261 00:17:35,956 --> 00:17:38,276 Speaker 2: a lot of that I think comes to the specificity 262 00:17:38,276 --> 00:17:41,676 Speaker 2: of the question. And then the fourth on the list 263 00:17:42,036 --> 00:17:46,036 Speaker 2: is about the reasons why the parties are engaging in 264 00:17:46,076 --> 00:17:51,036 Speaker 2: the disagreement. And here you want to check that not 265 00:17:51,076 --> 00:17:54,556 Speaker 2: necessarily you and the other person have the same reasons 266 00:17:54,556 --> 00:17:57,276 Speaker 2: for wanting to engage in the disagreement, but that your 267 00:17:57,356 --> 00:18:01,956 Speaker 2: reasons for wanting to engage are okay by one another. Right, 268 00:18:02,036 --> 00:18:07,236 Speaker 2: So imagine another person is just coming in to hurt 269 00:18:07,276 --> 00:18:12,156 Speaker 2: your feelings or to vent or to pick a fight, 270 00:18:12,196 --> 00:18:15,876 Speaker 2: as we've been saying, that's a moment to say, hey, 271 00:18:15,996 --> 00:18:19,356 Speaker 2: I'm not engaging in this disagreement with you. If that's 272 00:18:19,436 --> 00:18:22,116 Speaker 2: the reason why you're coming into it. There may be 273 00:18:22,196 --> 00:18:25,036 Speaker 2: other ways to talk about the issue. It may be 274 00:18:25,156 --> 00:18:27,076 Speaker 2: that I just hear you out if what you have 275 00:18:27,156 --> 00:18:29,076 Speaker 2: to do is vent, but we're not going to have 276 00:18:29,116 --> 00:18:30,316 Speaker 2: a disagreement about this. 277 00:18:31,156 --> 00:18:34,596 Speaker 1: All that said, sometimes there are good reasons to put 278 00:18:34,596 --> 00:18:38,796 Speaker 1: on our debating cats. After the break, Bo offers advice 279 00:18:39,036 --> 00:18:45,756 Speaker 1: for how we can disagree better. We'll be right back 280 00:18:45,956 --> 00:18:57,516 Speaker 1: with a slight change of plans. But one of the 281 00:18:57,556 --> 00:19:00,076 Speaker 1: reasons I loved reading your book and I loved digging 282 00:19:00,116 --> 00:19:02,356 Speaker 1: into your work is that you know, we disagree all 283 00:19:02,396 --> 00:19:04,956 Speaker 1: the time, but we also talk past each other all 284 00:19:04,996 --> 00:19:08,316 Speaker 1: the time. And I feel like what your work argues 285 00:19:08,876 --> 00:19:11,716 Speaker 1: is that we don't have to be satisfied with the 286 00:19:11,796 --> 00:19:14,796 Speaker 1: quality of disagreements that we often have. We can in 287 00:19:14,836 --> 00:19:19,396 Speaker 1: fact do better. There is actually a method to disagree well, 288 00:19:19,476 --> 00:19:21,716 Speaker 1: a method to the madness, if you will. Let's get 289 00:19:21,756 --> 00:19:23,876 Speaker 1: into some of the tactics for how it is that 290 00:19:23,916 --> 00:19:26,236 Speaker 1: we can disagree better. What does a good argument have 291 00:19:26,316 --> 00:19:28,156 Speaker 1: to do in order for it to be effective. 292 00:19:28,876 --> 00:19:31,836 Speaker 2: It's two things. It's to show that the claim that 293 00:19:31,876 --> 00:19:34,916 Speaker 2: it's making is true and that it's important. So let's 294 00:19:34,956 --> 00:19:40,036 Speaker 2: imagine you're arguing that we as human beings should be 295 00:19:40,116 --> 00:19:44,076 Speaker 2: vegetarian because it's good for the environment. You have to 296 00:19:44,116 --> 00:19:48,356 Speaker 2: show first of all, that being vegetarian is in fact 297 00:19:48,436 --> 00:19:52,196 Speaker 2: good for the environment, because otherwise the argument is untrue. 298 00:19:52,236 --> 00:19:56,556 Speaker 2: You have no legs to stand on, and that the 299 00:19:56,716 --> 00:19:59,636 Speaker 2: fact that it's good for the environment means you should 300 00:19:59,636 --> 00:20:03,876 Speaker 2: be vegetarian. That's the importance part that's saying the fact 301 00:20:03,876 --> 00:20:07,236 Speaker 2: that this is true gives us enough of a reason 302 00:20:07,396 --> 00:20:11,356 Speaker 2: to change our mind or our behavior. And it's usually 303 00:20:11,396 --> 00:20:14,956 Speaker 2: in that second prong, the importance prong, that people tend 304 00:20:15,036 --> 00:20:20,596 Speaker 2: to fall behind, because after we've demonstrated the truth of something, 305 00:20:21,236 --> 00:20:23,756 Speaker 2: it can seem kind of self evident because it is 306 00:20:23,836 --> 00:20:28,356 Speaker 2: for us that justifies the conclusion, but for other people 307 00:20:28,996 --> 00:20:32,356 Speaker 2: you might have to give additional reasons for that argument 308 00:20:32,476 --> 00:20:34,636 Speaker 2: having the kind of effect that you want it to. 309 00:20:35,676 --> 00:20:39,716 Speaker 1: So I'm vegetarian, so clearly I win. So when it 310 00:20:39,756 --> 00:20:42,556 Speaker 1: comes to importance, I think what I hear is that 311 00:20:42,636 --> 00:20:47,036 Speaker 1: it needs to have relative importance, because I can think 312 00:20:47,196 --> 00:20:50,836 Speaker 1: that it's important to care about the environment, but I 313 00:20:50,916 --> 00:20:54,316 Speaker 1: might think that other things are more important than that 314 00:20:54,476 --> 00:20:57,756 Speaker 1: our protein intake, whatever it is. And so would you 315 00:20:57,756 --> 00:21:00,156 Speaker 1: call it? The reason I hesitant to just use the 316 00:21:00,196 --> 00:21:01,956 Speaker 1: word important is I feel like a lot of people 317 00:21:01,956 --> 00:21:04,116 Speaker 1: can agree a lot of things are important, but actually 318 00:21:04,116 --> 00:21:06,836 Speaker 1: it's about how we rank them in a hierarchy of 319 00:21:06,876 --> 00:21:10,916 Speaker 1: relative importance that determines what the ultimate recommendation. 320 00:21:10,516 --> 00:21:15,156 Speaker 2: Is that's terrific. So it's certainly not absolute importance. And 321 00:21:15,236 --> 00:21:19,476 Speaker 2: so here I think it often comes down to asking, right, 322 00:21:19,556 --> 00:21:22,796 Speaker 2: what matters to you? What do you care about? Yeah, 323 00:21:22,836 --> 00:21:27,436 Speaker 2: and trying to give reasons tailored to them to change 324 00:21:27,476 --> 00:21:28,316 Speaker 2: their mind. 325 00:21:29,476 --> 00:21:32,036 Speaker 1: I kind of want to introduce into this conversation a 326 00:21:32,076 --> 00:21:35,716 Speaker 1: debate that my three older siblings and I lost over 327 00:21:35,836 --> 00:21:37,876 Speaker 1: and over again with my parents in childhood. If you 328 00:21:37,876 --> 00:21:40,356 Speaker 1: don't mind, okay, because I'm clearly over this bow. You know, 329 00:21:40,396 --> 00:21:42,636 Speaker 1: it's not like I'm bringing it up, you know, thirty 330 00:21:42,716 --> 00:21:48,316 Speaker 1: years later anything. Okay. So we always wanted a pet 331 00:21:48,316 --> 00:21:51,036 Speaker 1: growing up, ideally a puppy. What do I need to 332 00:21:51,076 --> 00:21:54,836 Speaker 1: do to convince parents that every set of parents should 333 00:21:54,876 --> 00:21:57,596 Speaker 1: get a family pet because it is good for their 334 00:21:57,676 --> 00:22:00,636 Speaker 1: child's development. Let's let's have you tell me how do 335 00:22:00,676 --> 00:22:02,676 Speaker 1: I How do I achieve those two burdens? I have 336 00:22:02,716 --> 00:22:04,556 Speaker 1: to show that the main claim is true, and I 337 00:22:04,556 --> 00:22:06,236 Speaker 1: need to show it's important. What would I do in 338 00:22:06,276 --> 00:22:06,676 Speaker 1: that case? 339 00:22:07,076 --> 00:22:09,956 Speaker 2: The first thing you have to show is getting pets 340 00:22:10,036 --> 00:22:13,516 Speaker 2: is in fact good for the kid's development. That's the 341 00:22:13,596 --> 00:22:17,276 Speaker 2: truth claim. And then you have to say the fact 342 00:22:17,276 --> 00:22:20,676 Speaker 2: that it's good for the kid's development gives us enough 343 00:22:20,716 --> 00:22:24,556 Speaker 2: of a reason to get the pets. So that's exactly 344 00:22:24,596 --> 00:22:28,596 Speaker 2: the kind of relative subjective importance, So it being good 345 00:22:28,676 --> 00:22:32,396 Speaker 2: for the kid's development might not do any good if 346 00:22:32,756 --> 00:22:35,956 Speaker 2: one of the parents is deathly allergic, for example, In 347 00:22:35,996 --> 00:22:39,636 Speaker 2: that instance, that would just override this other interest that 348 00:22:39,676 --> 00:22:42,516 Speaker 2: they have in their kid's well being. But in more 349 00:22:42,596 --> 00:22:47,236 Speaker 2: moderate cases, where it's the competing demands are maybe it's 350 00:22:47,276 --> 00:22:52,436 Speaker 2: expensive or it's costly on time, you might by explaining 351 00:22:52,556 --> 00:22:56,476 Speaker 2: why it's the kid's development through the pets that we 352 00:22:56,516 --> 00:22:59,596 Speaker 2: should privilege, you might be able to change their minds. 353 00:23:00,516 --> 00:23:03,596 Speaker 1: So I can easily see people following the set of rules. 354 00:23:03,636 --> 00:23:06,836 Speaker 1: When they know they're about to enter an argument, they 355 00:23:06,916 --> 00:23:08,996 Speaker 1: have the ability to prepare for it. As a little kid, 356 00:23:09,116 --> 00:23:12,676 Speaker 1: I'm creating my little puppy line of argumentation. But I'm 357 00:23:12,716 --> 00:23:17,156 Speaker 1: thinking about daily life, in which often times normal conversations 358 00:23:17,236 --> 00:23:20,276 Speaker 1: and of escalating into arguments almost without our own awareness. 359 00:23:20,316 --> 00:23:24,076 Speaker 1: So they escalate so quickly, and it can feel very 360 00:23:24,156 --> 00:23:28,276 Speaker 1: odd bo to interrupt and declare before we continue in 361 00:23:28,316 --> 00:23:32,356 Speaker 1: this heated exchange, maybe please establish some ground rules, like yes, 362 00:23:32,396 --> 00:23:33,836 Speaker 1: I can just imagine my friends and being like, get 363 00:23:33,876 --> 00:23:35,876 Speaker 1: the hell out of here, maya, what are you doing 364 00:23:35,916 --> 00:23:40,556 Speaker 1: with this formal nonsense? And so, when emotions are running high, 365 00:23:41,476 --> 00:23:43,836 Speaker 1: how do we take the temperature down and like take 366 00:23:43,836 --> 00:23:47,076 Speaker 1: that moment to breathe and try to integrate these kinds 367 00:23:47,076 --> 00:23:50,596 Speaker 1: of frameworks and discipline is what I'm hearing, this disagreement 368 00:23:50,676 --> 00:23:52,716 Speaker 1: discipline into our lives. 369 00:23:52,956 --> 00:23:57,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question and a hard question. I 370 00:23:57,676 --> 00:24:01,596 Speaker 2: think the first thing is you want to come to 371 00:24:01,676 --> 00:24:05,756 Speaker 2: this kind of agreement ahead of time, So when things 372 00:24:05,796 --> 00:24:08,556 Speaker 2: are kind of good, especially when you're in a relationship, 373 00:24:08,596 --> 00:24:12,516 Speaker 2: having a conversation about how you want to resolve disputes, 374 00:24:12,836 --> 00:24:17,316 Speaker 2: and once you have some agreement, it can often be 375 00:24:17,476 --> 00:24:20,516 Speaker 2: easier to refer back to it say hey, we've deviated 376 00:24:21,436 --> 00:24:24,956 Speaker 2: from the thing that we promised each other. I think 377 00:24:24,956 --> 00:24:27,876 Speaker 2: that can be useful. And I think the second thing 378 00:24:28,276 --> 00:24:33,836 Speaker 2: is I wonder whether our aversion to awkwardness must be 379 00:24:33,916 --> 00:24:38,116 Speaker 2: really great, you know, because we would rather put up 380 00:24:38,156 --> 00:24:43,676 Speaker 2: with kind of a painful exchange sometimes. Then to recognize 381 00:24:43,716 --> 00:24:48,316 Speaker 2: that a conversation is artificial in the best way. It's 382 00:24:48,356 --> 00:24:52,036 Speaker 2: something we are building together and saying, hey, are we 383 00:24:52,076 --> 00:24:55,316 Speaker 2: building this the right way? And so I think it 384 00:24:55,356 --> 00:24:58,996 Speaker 2: can be subtle. It can be are we talking about 385 00:24:58,996 --> 00:25:02,956 Speaker 2: the same thing right now? Let's check is this really 386 00:25:03,036 --> 00:25:06,956 Speaker 2: a disagreement about the dishes? Or are we now talking 387 00:25:06,996 --> 00:25:11,116 Speaker 2: about something else? You're even a topic in your day 388 00:25:11,156 --> 00:25:14,596 Speaker 2: to day disagreements. In your day to day disagreements, it's 389 00:25:15,436 --> 00:25:20,356 Speaker 2: a dispute in search of a topic often and one 390 00:25:20,476 --> 00:25:23,116 Speaker 2: thing that you know, I had a big blowout with 391 00:25:23,156 --> 00:25:25,956 Speaker 2: my father when we first moved to Australia about not 392 00:25:26,076 --> 00:25:32,036 Speaker 2: calling our relatives enough. And even that took some work 393 00:25:32,116 --> 00:25:36,396 Speaker 2: to get to because initially it was just ill feeling. 394 00:25:36,796 --> 00:25:38,996 Speaker 2: You know, you get that sense when someone's upset at 395 00:25:38,996 --> 00:25:42,316 Speaker 2: you and they're kind of commenting on you left your 396 00:25:42,316 --> 00:25:45,716 Speaker 2: shoes over there, and what are we talking about at 397 00:25:45,756 --> 00:25:50,036 Speaker 2: the moment? You know, then there's an official kind of 398 00:25:50,676 --> 00:25:53,836 Speaker 2: maybe accusation is too strong a word, but there's a 399 00:25:54,036 --> 00:25:58,076 Speaker 2: stronger claim about something that you've done wrong. And then 400 00:25:58,116 --> 00:26:00,516 Speaker 2: you start to see the shoe thing was just leading 401 00:26:00,596 --> 00:26:03,756 Speaker 2: up to this moment, so then you recognize the claim. 402 00:26:04,236 --> 00:26:07,356 Speaker 2: And for us, it was not calling the relatives enough. 403 00:26:08,196 --> 00:26:10,596 Speaker 2: And we would have this discussion and I would say, 404 00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:12,636 Speaker 2: you know, I call them this many times in a week. 405 00:26:12,756 --> 00:26:15,236 Speaker 2: That doesn't seem crazy, and I know what's going on 406 00:26:15,276 --> 00:26:18,076 Speaker 2: in their lives, and he would have some responses to that, 407 00:26:18,156 --> 00:26:21,916 Speaker 2: but it didn't feel like we were assuaging anybody's concerns. 408 00:26:22,076 --> 00:26:25,636 Speaker 2: The ill feeling was still there, And it was only 409 00:26:25,676 --> 00:26:30,316 Speaker 2: when I stopped arguing and said, why does this matter 410 00:26:30,396 --> 00:26:33,796 Speaker 2: to you so much? What are we really disagreeing about, 411 00:26:34,396 --> 00:26:37,516 Speaker 2: that we realized that the calls were a kind of 412 00:26:37,676 --> 00:26:41,916 Speaker 2: stand in for broader concerns about losing connection to home, 413 00:26:42,596 --> 00:26:47,076 Speaker 2: right of seeing your kid lose his grasp on his 414 00:26:47,196 --> 00:26:50,796 Speaker 2: native language in the process of acquiring a new one. 415 00:26:51,316 --> 00:26:54,676 Speaker 2: That that was really what we needed to talk about. 416 00:26:54,996 --> 00:26:59,636 Speaker 2: And so the clarity in debate of starting always with 417 00:26:59,716 --> 00:27:04,396 Speaker 2: the topic and almost having this north star towards which 418 00:27:04,436 --> 00:27:08,276 Speaker 2: you aim all of your efforts, just understanding the importance 419 00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:11,676 Speaker 2: of that, the importance of naming the dispute. I think 420 00:27:11,676 --> 00:27:14,956 Speaker 2: that's come and use countless times. I think the more 421 00:27:15,796 --> 00:27:19,716 Speaker 2: fluency people have with those concepts and those skills, I'm hoping, 422 00:27:19,796 --> 00:27:23,716 Speaker 2: the more natural it can seem. But it may be 423 00:27:23,716 --> 00:27:27,596 Speaker 2: worth questioning whether this mode that we have of thinking 424 00:27:27,676 --> 00:27:34,596 Speaker 2: about conversation as free flowing and driven by just natural impulses. 425 00:27:35,396 --> 00:27:37,956 Speaker 2: It may be worth questioning whether that's the most productive 426 00:27:37,996 --> 00:27:38,996 Speaker 2: way of thinking about it. 427 00:27:39,236 --> 00:27:41,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we have all kinds of social norms that 428 00:27:41,636 --> 00:27:44,196 Speaker 1: govern our behavior and steer us away from what feels 429 00:27:44,236 --> 00:27:46,956 Speaker 1: instinctive and natural. Those are working very nicely. 430 00:27:46,996 --> 00:27:47,436 Speaker 2: For sure. 431 00:27:47,596 --> 00:27:50,556 Speaker 1: For sure, No, I won't cut ahead of you in line, 432 00:27:50,636 --> 00:27:53,476 Speaker 1: even though I want to, for example. So yeah, I 433 00:27:53,476 --> 00:27:56,996 Speaker 1: think that's totally fair. So Bo, you are a two 434 00:27:57,036 --> 00:28:01,516 Speaker 1: time world champion debater, and I think intuitively, when I 435 00:28:01,556 --> 00:28:04,836 Speaker 1: think about the skills that a debater has, I sometimes 436 00:28:04,836 --> 00:28:07,196 Speaker 1: forget that listening is right at the top, right. I 437 00:28:07,196 --> 00:28:10,636 Speaker 1: think of charm, and I already have thought and great 438 00:28:10,636 --> 00:28:13,476 Speaker 1: oratory skills. But you talk in the book about just 439 00:28:13,516 --> 00:28:16,876 Speaker 1: how important it is to be a really thoughtful listener, 440 00:28:16,916 --> 00:28:19,356 Speaker 1: to really respond to what it is the person saying. 441 00:28:20,196 --> 00:28:23,516 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And this too is a lesson that I 442 00:28:23,556 --> 00:28:28,876 Speaker 2: had to learn on the fly. So the time that 443 00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:32,156 Speaker 2: you're given to speak when you're in middle school is 444 00:28:32,196 --> 00:28:35,596 Speaker 2: about five minutes, and when you're just starting out, the 445 00:28:35,716 --> 00:28:38,556 Speaker 2: challenge is filling up the time, so you usually end 446 00:28:38,636 --> 00:28:40,596 Speaker 2: up at like three minutes or four minutes, and then 447 00:28:40,636 --> 00:28:44,436 Speaker 2: you sit down and there's some time remaining. And so 448 00:28:45,156 --> 00:28:48,756 Speaker 2: the work initially in debating is can you get to 449 00:28:48,796 --> 00:28:51,076 Speaker 2: the five minutes? Can you come up with enough stuff 450 00:28:51,076 --> 00:28:55,276 Speaker 2: to say? And eventually, through research writing out your arguments. 451 00:28:55,596 --> 00:28:59,076 Speaker 2: Watching old debates, you can you can get there and 452 00:28:59,116 --> 00:29:02,636 Speaker 2: you have enough argument, and soon it becomes can you 453 00:29:02,676 --> 00:29:05,316 Speaker 2: talk a little faster so you can get more stuff in? 454 00:29:06,076 --> 00:29:08,556 Speaker 2: And this was where I was at when I came 455 00:29:08,596 --> 00:29:14,916 Speaker 2: across an adversary, Deborah, who would kick my behind weekly. 456 00:29:15,836 --> 00:29:20,156 Speaker 2: And it's a lesson I learned when I debated with her, 457 00:29:20,636 --> 00:29:24,636 Speaker 2: which was I noticed she actually did not fill up 458 00:29:24,636 --> 00:29:29,356 Speaker 2: her page with reams of argument. Instead, during the rounds, 459 00:29:29,716 --> 00:29:32,956 Speaker 2: she took copious notes of what the other person was saying, 460 00:29:33,076 --> 00:29:37,396 Speaker 2: So in that moment, she was almost a transcriber, faithfully 461 00:29:37,436 --> 00:29:41,156 Speaker 2: noting down what they had said, sometimes giving it order 462 00:29:41,836 --> 00:29:44,596 Speaker 2: where it was disorganized. So when you had been presented 463 00:29:44,636 --> 00:29:48,036 Speaker 2: a word cloud, you give it a kind of structure 464 00:29:48,156 --> 00:29:51,836 Speaker 2: that they were lacking. You maybe think about other points 465 00:29:51,876 --> 00:29:53,476 Speaker 2: that they could have made that would have made the 466 00:29:53,516 --> 00:29:57,676 Speaker 2: point even stronger. So there's this kind of amazing act 467 00:29:57,756 --> 00:30:03,596 Speaker 2: of listening as a creative, constructive act. And I could 468 00:30:03,636 --> 00:30:06,596 Speaker 2: also see her listening out from the perspective of the 469 00:30:06,716 --> 00:30:09,716 Speaker 2: audience to think what are they getting, what are the 470 00:30:09,796 --> 00:30:13,156 Speaker 2: questions that they might be having. So there's listening with 471 00:30:13,276 --> 00:30:16,156 Speaker 2: one ear faithfully to what the other side is saying 472 00:30:16,596 --> 00:30:19,996 Speaker 2: with the other ear, listening to how a third party 473 00:30:20,596 --> 00:30:24,876 Speaker 2: is hearing this, whether they're responding, whether they're persuaded, what 474 00:30:24,996 --> 00:30:28,676 Speaker 2: they're still not sure about. And it was only after 475 00:30:28,796 --> 00:30:31,836 Speaker 2: she had done that, after she had figured out the 476 00:30:31,916 --> 00:30:34,876 Speaker 2: lay of the land, that she started writing the final 477 00:30:34,916 --> 00:30:38,116 Speaker 2: script of what she was going to say. And you 478 00:30:38,156 --> 00:30:41,796 Speaker 2: know here again, listening is not just a virtuous thing 479 00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:46,556 Speaker 2: to do. It has a competitive purpose, which is you're 480 00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:50,196 Speaker 2: never going to change someone's mind unless they feel like 481 00:30:50,396 --> 00:30:53,756 Speaker 2: your arguments connected with their concerns and connected with the 482 00:30:53,796 --> 00:30:56,156 Speaker 2: points that they had made. So it was a way 483 00:30:56,236 --> 00:31:00,236 Speaker 2: a new way of thinking about listening, all through the 484 00:31:00,316 --> 00:31:04,276 Speaker 2: lens of still wanting to make the best possible argument 485 00:31:04,356 --> 00:31:04,836 Speaker 2: that you can. 486 00:31:06,476 --> 00:31:08,436 Speaker 1: Are there any tips you have for ways we can 487 00:31:08,476 --> 00:31:11,716 Speaker 1: become better listeners? And I think we're just told listen better, 488 00:31:11,756 --> 00:31:13,756 Speaker 1: and it might not be prescriptive enough. I might not 489 00:31:13,836 --> 00:31:15,996 Speaker 1: know how to actually implement that recommendation. 490 00:31:16,916 --> 00:31:21,396 Speaker 2: I think one way is by asking questions and drawing 491 00:31:21,556 --> 00:31:24,396 Speaker 2: out the argument from the other side. So listening, I 492 00:31:24,436 --> 00:31:27,996 Speaker 2: don't think is just the act of hearing. It is 493 00:31:28,596 --> 00:31:33,876 Speaker 2: the collaborative process of bringing the other person's ideas into 494 00:31:34,076 --> 00:31:36,956 Speaker 2: full view. So you know what they are, You know 495 00:31:37,036 --> 00:31:39,876 Speaker 2: what you're working with. So in the examples that we've 496 00:31:39,916 --> 00:31:42,756 Speaker 2: been talking about, asking so why do you believe that's true? 497 00:31:43,276 --> 00:31:46,716 Speaker 2: So is there some evidence? Did you read something that 498 00:31:46,796 --> 00:31:49,556 Speaker 2: made you think this way? And then once you get 499 00:31:49,596 --> 00:31:51,916 Speaker 2: a sense of why they believe the argument is true, 500 00:31:51,956 --> 00:31:54,076 Speaker 2: saying so why does this matter to you? Right, it 501 00:31:54,116 --> 00:31:57,156 Speaker 2: doesn't matter to you more than these other values that 502 00:31:57,196 --> 00:32:00,436 Speaker 2: you might be thinking about. And soon, whether it be 503 00:32:00,516 --> 00:32:03,356 Speaker 2: with a kid who's, you know, not used to articulating 504 00:32:03,436 --> 00:32:07,396 Speaker 2: themselves a certain way, or a staff member who's shyer, 505 00:32:07,636 --> 00:32:10,476 Speaker 2: or a friend who's a special conflict of verse, you 506 00:32:10,556 --> 00:32:14,196 Speaker 2: can collaboratively build up the arguments. So I don't think 507 00:32:14,276 --> 00:32:21,276 Speaker 2: listening is silent. It is a collaborative conversational process that 508 00:32:21,396 --> 00:32:24,316 Speaker 2: helps you better understand where the other side is coming from. 509 00:32:25,076 --> 00:32:28,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, now let's talk. But another concept I read 510 00:32:29,036 --> 00:32:32,756 Speaker 1: about in your book is called side switching. So do 511 00:32:32,796 --> 00:32:35,476 Speaker 1: you mind telling us what side switching is in the 512 00:32:35,516 --> 00:32:38,516 Speaker 1: context of debate and why it's a valuable exercise. 513 00:32:39,196 --> 00:32:42,876 Speaker 2: So much of debate is obviously an exercise in certainty. 514 00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:48,876 Speaker 2: It's in preparing your arguments fully believing in their truth 515 00:32:49,036 --> 00:32:53,516 Speaker 2: and importance of using all the persuasive tools at your 516 00:32:53,516 --> 00:32:57,956 Speaker 2: disposal to project as someone who's credible and persuasive on 517 00:32:57,996 --> 00:33:01,196 Speaker 2: a topic. But one thing I learned is that the 518 00:33:01,236 --> 00:33:05,596 Speaker 2: best debate is before they go on stage. In the 519 00:33:05,636 --> 00:33:10,356 Speaker 2: last few minutes, they go through these exercises called side 520 00:33:10,356 --> 00:33:14,516 Speaker 2: switch exercises, which take a few different forms. So one 521 00:33:14,556 --> 00:33:18,156 Speaker 2: is to turn to a fresh sheet of paper and 522 00:33:18,196 --> 00:33:20,356 Speaker 2: to come up with the four best arguments for the 523 00:33:20,396 --> 00:33:24,516 Speaker 2: other side. Another is to go through the case that 524 00:33:24,596 --> 00:33:28,036 Speaker 2: you've prepared as if through the eyes of someone who 525 00:33:28,156 --> 00:33:31,556 Speaker 2: vehemently disagrees, and try to poke as many holes as 526 00:33:31,556 --> 00:33:36,396 Speaker 2: you possibly can. Or a third is you imagine that 527 00:33:36,436 --> 00:33:39,436 Speaker 2: you've just lost the debate, and you write down the 528 00:33:39,476 --> 00:33:44,116 Speaker 2: reason why you lost, and all of those unsettle things 529 00:33:44,476 --> 00:33:49,756 Speaker 2: a little bit, and they unsettle your certainty in particular. 530 00:33:49,596 --> 00:33:55,836 Speaker 1: Yes, and you help decouple ideas from self identity, which 531 00:33:55,836 --> 00:33:59,076 Speaker 1: is often what makes passions run so high in day 532 00:33:59,076 --> 00:34:03,116 Speaker 1: to day disagreements, right I sometimes well, no, I'm trying 533 00:34:03,116 --> 00:34:06,076 Speaker 1: to think it's that in the middle of a disagreement, 534 00:34:07,076 --> 00:34:10,876 Speaker 1: if you think that eating on a point is a 535 00:34:10,916 --> 00:34:13,596 Speaker 1: threat to self identity in some way, it's challenging who 536 00:34:13,636 --> 00:34:15,676 Speaker 1: you are to say, you know what, you're right, I 537 00:34:15,756 --> 00:34:18,436 Speaker 1: kind of agree with this. You're much less likely to 538 00:34:19,156 --> 00:34:21,436 Speaker 1: ever accept that you might even wrong about something, So 539 00:34:21,476 --> 00:34:23,996 Speaker 1: it feels like this is side switching, is a way 540 00:34:24,076 --> 00:34:27,196 Speaker 1: to give yourself that space to see, Oh, you know, 541 00:34:27,236 --> 00:34:29,796 Speaker 1: I could be a person who occupies both points of 542 00:34:29,876 --> 00:34:32,556 Speaker 1: view and yeah, I'm curious to know whether that just 543 00:34:32,556 --> 00:34:35,596 Speaker 1: affects the psychology with which you enter into a disagreement. 544 00:34:36,036 --> 00:34:40,236 Speaker 2: I think enormously it humbles you. It forces you to 545 00:34:40,356 --> 00:34:43,436 Speaker 2: think that maybe you're the person who needs to be 546 00:34:43,516 --> 00:34:47,916 Speaker 2: accommodated because you're being unreasonable, and it brings down the 547 00:34:47,956 --> 00:34:52,956 Speaker 2: temperature of the other side disagreeing, because that itself can 548 00:34:52,996 --> 00:34:55,436 Speaker 2: be kind of upsetting, like you're my partner, how can 549 00:34:55,476 --> 00:34:58,956 Speaker 2: you find this objectionable? Or you know, my best friend, 550 00:34:59,916 --> 00:35:03,276 Speaker 2: you should of course agree with me, and knowing there 551 00:35:03,276 --> 00:35:06,356 Speaker 2: are two sides, expecting there are going to be some 552 00:35:06,396 --> 00:35:10,036 Speaker 2: objections here, it's a tool to me make your arguments 553 00:35:10,156 --> 00:35:14,956 Speaker 2: better in advance, but also to anticipate that there will 554 00:35:14,956 --> 00:35:17,076 Speaker 2: be pushback and that you're going to have to work 555 00:35:17,356 --> 00:35:21,036 Speaker 2: through it. And I think that conditions you to a 556 00:35:21,076 --> 00:35:23,956 Speaker 2: certain kind of exchange that I think can be more 557 00:35:23,996 --> 00:35:26,236 Speaker 2: productive I'm just wondering. 558 00:35:26,236 --> 00:35:29,316 Speaker 1: I mean, you've been in all these positions where you've 559 00:35:29,436 --> 00:35:32,276 Speaker 1: argued for sides that you might not personally believe in 560 00:35:32,876 --> 00:35:35,636 Speaker 1: or agree with, and I just wonder, have you ever 561 00:35:35,716 --> 00:35:38,876 Speaker 1: fallen for your own message? If we hear ourselves saying things, 562 00:35:39,076 --> 00:35:42,396 Speaker 1: over time, we might start to believe those things are true. 563 00:35:42,556 --> 00:35:46,196 Speaker 1: And so have you ever found that because you were 564 00:35:46,236 --> 00:35:49,436 Speaker 1: asked to argue for a certain side of something, you 565 00:35:49,476 --> 00:35:52,956 Speaker 1: actually found yourself agreeing with that side on the other end, 566 00:35:52,996 --> 00:35:54,356 Speaker 1: and that was unexpected for you? 567 00:35:55,396 --> 00:35:59,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in every debate you do undergo a 568 00:35:59,676 --> 00:36:02,596 Speaker 2: change from having argued for a position, And the way 569 00:36:02,596 --> 00:36:06,716 Speaker 2: in which I experienced it is very rarely that I 570 00:36:06,876 --> 00:36:09,876 Speaker 2: just end up adopting the view that I have, but 571 00:36:09,996 --> 00:36:14,996 Speaker 2: rather that it leaves a residue the next time you 572 00:36:15,116 --> 00:36:19,276 Speaker 2: make an argument for the position you actually believe. The 573 00:36:19,316 --> 00:36:24,076 Speaker 2: echoes of the opposing argument are always there. And I 574 00:36:24,196 --> 00:36:28,076 Speaker 2: used to think that that meant you don't have any 575 00:36:28,116 --> 00:36:32,956 Speaker 2: convictions anymore, or you're unsure, But in fact, I've found 576 00:36:33,036 --> 00:36:36,796 Speaker 2: that a lot of my convictions are stronger for having 577 00:36:36,876 --> 00:36:40,676 Speaker 2: considered the other side, for having those echoes. It doesn't 578 00:36:40,796 --> 00:36:46,516 Speaker 2: have the brittleness of something so fixed, it's more flexible, 579 00:36:46,636 --> 00:36:51,076 Speaker 2: it's more porous, you're more okay with its incompleteness. 580 00:36:51,956 --> 00:36:54,716 Speaker 1: I mean, what I'm reflecting on as I hear this 581 00:36:54,796 --> 00:36:58,516 Speaker 1: conversation unfold is that when you're in the world a debate, 582 00:36:59,196 --> 00:37:01,716 Speaker 1: you basically have to agree to live in the gray 583 00:37:01,796 --> 00:37:06,196 Speaker 1: space in life generally where you feel out of minimum 584 00:37:06,236 --> 00:37:08,556 Speaker 1: open to the other side of the debate. I mean, 585 00:37:08,636 --> 00:37:10,596 Speaker 1: you have to as part of your career. You have 586 00:37:10,636 --> 00:37:11,916 Speaker 1: to be open to the other side because you might 587 00:37:11,916 --> 00:37:15,276 Speaker 1: be asked to fight for it tomorrow. Right, And I 588 00:37:15,396 --> 00:37:19,596 Speaker 1: just wonder, like, when you've trained your brain to live 589 00:37:19,756 --> 00:37:22,236 Speaker 1: in the gray space of life, where we understand that 590 00:37:22,276 --> 00:37:25,676 Speaker 1: there is nuance and complexity and at least two sides 591 00:37:25,716 --> 00:37:29,836 Speaker 1: to every argument, I wonder how that affects the way 592 00:37:29,836 --> 00:37:31,156 Speaker 1: that you interact with the world. 593 00:37:31,636 --> 00:37:35,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's such a beautiful question. And I 594 00:37:35,076 --> 00:37:40,316 Speaker 2: think that grayness is the natural state, right, that it 595 00:37:40,436 --> 00:37:45,796 Speaker 2: takes a certain kind of willing blindness to aspects of 596 00:37:45,836 --> 00:37:50,276 Speaker 2: ourselves to say we are just like every other member 597 00:37:50,316 --> 00:37:53,316 Speaker 2: of this political party or this cultural group, or this 598 00:37:53,396 --> 00:37:57,396 Speaker 2: linguistic group or this country. There are ways in which 599 00:37:57,476 --> 00:38:02,996 Speaker 2: we feel other, all of us, and so I take 600 00:38:03,116 --> 00:38:07,436 Speaker 2: that kind of grayness, feeling slightly at odds with things 601 00:38:07,916 --> 00:38:13,236 Speaker 2: as the natural state, and I think it's changed my 602 00:38:13,476 --> 00:38:17,556 Speaker 2: view of what I can ask for from the world, 603 00:38:18,036 --> 00:38:23,836 Speaker 2: which is more than to be left alone, to be 604 00:38:23,956 --> 00:38:28,356 Speaker 2: kept safe, to let me get through the day, but 605 00:38:28,556 --> 00:38:32,756 Speaker 2: rather that I want to be in conversation with the world. 606 00:38:33,516 --> 00:38:38,596 Speaker 2: And I think it's given me that belief that it's possible. 607 00:38:38,916 --> 00:38:41,436 Speaker 2: It's given me some of the skills, not all of 608 00:38:41,476 --> 00:38:43,476 Speaker 2: the skills, that you need in order to be in 609 00:38:43,516 --> 00:38:49,116 Speaker 2: such a conversation. And once that conversation is ongoing, I 610 00:38:49,156 --> 00:38:52,556 Speaker 2: think so much as possible, you can learn about the world, 611 00:38:52,676 --> 00:38:57,396 Speaker 2: You can form relationships, you can discover parts of yourself, 612 00:38:58,196 --> 00:39:02,756 Speaker 2: try out new identities. Right, all of that relies on 613 00:39:02,876 --> 00:39:09,076 Speaker 2: there being that ongoing conversation, and I just feel grateful 614 00:39:09,276 --> 00:39:10,276 Speaker 2: to be a part of it. 615 00:39:41,356 --> 00:39:44,556 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Join me next week 616 00:39:44,596 --> 00:39:47,836 Speaker 1: when we hear from doctor Lucy Kalanathi, who lost her 617 00:39:47,916 --> 00:39:51,636 Speaker 1: husband to cancer eight years ago. She reflects on how 618 00:39:51,676 --> 00:39:55,316 Speaker 1: her grief has changed over time. You may have read 619 00:39:55,356 --> 00:39:59,356 Speaker 1: her husband, Paul's best selling memoir, When Breath Becomes Heir. 620 00:40:00,876 --> 00:40:04,636 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed my conversation with world, debate champion Boso, 621 00:40:05,276 --> 00:40:08,236 Speaker 1: I recommend listening to our very first episode of A 622 00:40:08,236 --> 00:40:11,436 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plan, which happens to be my favorite 623 00:40:11,476 --> 00:40:15,476 Speaker 1: episode of all time. It's called a Black Jazz Musician 624 00:40:15,596 --> 00:40:20,356 Speaker 1: takes on the KKK and features Darryl Davis. Darryl is 625 00:40:20,396 --> 00:40:24,076 Speaker 1: an expert on changing minds. Since the nineteen eighties, He's 626 00:40:24,116 --> 00:40:27,276 Speaker 1: inspired hundreds of people to leave the Ku Klux Klan 627 00:40:27,636 --> 00:40:31,476 Speaker 1: and other white supremacy groups. We'll link to the episode 628 00:40:31,516 --> 00:40:44,356 Speaker 1: in show notes. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, 629 00:40:44,356 --> 00:40:48,036 Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change 630 00:40:48,076 --> 00:40:52,116 Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate 631 00:40:52,196 --> 00:40:56,916 Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producer Trisha Bovida, and our sound engineer 632 00:40:56,996 --> 00:41:01,636 Speaker 1: Andrew Vestola. Luis Scara wrote our delightful theme song and 633 00:41:01,756 --> 00:41:04,996 Speaker 1: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of 634 00:41:05,036 --> 00:41:08,356 Speaker 1: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks 635 00:41:08,396 --> 00:41:12,236 Speaker 1: to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks 636 00:41:12,316 --> 00:41:14,956 Speaker 1: to Jimmy Late. You can follow A Slight Change of 637 00:41:14,996 --> 00:41:26,956 Speaker 1: Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.