1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: I'm Jonathan Strickland. I'm the host of this podcast. I'm 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 1: executive producer at how Stuff Works, and I heart radio 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: and I love all things tech. Into this time for 6 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: another classic episode of tech Stuff. This episode originally published 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: on April eight, two thousand and twelve, and Chris Pallette, 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: my former editor and co host, and I decided to 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: sit down and talk about the science of ballistics and 10 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: using a ballistic forensic science too to investigate a crime scene. 11 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: So you are about to hear this classic episode where 12 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: Chris and I kind of dig down into this very 13 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: interesting field. I hope you enjoy. We did a podcast 14 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: on nuclear weapons recently, Yes, we did, um, and right 15 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: in the middle of it, for reasons that I can't 16 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: even fathom, I started thinking about other kinds of weapons 17 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: and I thought, you know what, it would be kind 18 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: of interesting to do a podcast on ballistics, which is 19 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: basically the science of figuring out moving stuff projectiles work. Yeah, yeah, 20 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: I I was. I agree, that was a cool idea. Yeah, 21 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: it's the science of deals with motion of projectiles. But 22 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: of course it's been used. Sorry, I didn't mean it 23 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: interrupt I was gonna say that, you know, ballistics, It 24 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 1: also is kind of shorthand for a specific branch of forensics. Yes, 25 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: which is really what we're focusing on today. Yes, because 26 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: when you get down to it, the actual study of 27 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: ballistics is in large part a matter of physics. Yes. Yes, 28 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of science involved in this. We know 29 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: how we much we hate science, dad gum it um. 30 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: Unfortunately for the scientists, but fortunately for h crime mystery writers. 31 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: Bullets do not always behave themselves in terms of physics. Like, 32 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: they generally go where they're supposed to go, but they 33 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: don't always follow the normal path when they get there. Yeah, 34 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: let's just say that it's all due to little, tiny 35 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: individual differences on a very small scale. Because we don't 36 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: mean to say that bullets somehow defy the laws of physics. No, 37 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: but they don't always. They do always travel a predictable path, 38 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: right right. You might think, oh, well, if so and 39 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: so was standing here and shot such and such over there, 40 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: then the bullets should be right here. That's that's not 41 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: always the case. Even even saying the cartridge for the 42 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: the case for the cartridge should be right here. That's 43 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: not always the case either. So to really understand this, 44 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: first of all, we need to talk a little bit 45 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: about how the forensics part of ballistics all came about 46 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: in the first place. Yes, and and really ballistics people 47 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: have been trying to get the science behind uh forensics 48 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: ballistics down for quite some time, but it hasn't really 49 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: been that long that we really got it down pat. 50 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: I mean, in the nineteenth century, Uh, there were people 51 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: who were trying to figure out how to do this, 52 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: but they were the methods they were using were not 53 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: at all scientific, right, And to understand how you would 54 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: be able to use ballistics to try and identify a 55 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: weapon that fired a particular projectile, you have to understand 56 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: a little bit more about what goes on with these projectiles. 57 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: So sometime around oh, the late fifteen century, uh, the 58 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: people who were creating firearms at that time discovered something 59 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: which was that if you were to have a barrel 60 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: of a weapon have some grooves in it to help 61 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: direct the projectile to spin as it comes out of 62 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: the barrel, you improve the stability of that projectile's flight. Yeah. 63 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: Previously they were what you call smooth bore which was 64 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: basically a a smooth tube. The inside of it was smooth, 65 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: so you would, uh, you know, say take your musket 66 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: and fire a shot, fire a shot from it. Um. Actually, 67 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: you know this is this is I was getting ready 68 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: to dismiss this in my head, but I think we 69 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: should mention this. Um. You know those early muskets where 70 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: you would you know, uh, you'd have to get everything ready. 71 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: You'd have to put the wadding and the and the 72 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: powder in and then the musket ball and tamp it 73 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: all down with the rod before you could fire the weapon. 74 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: You know, whether it's matchlock or flint lock, which we 75 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: talked about in another podcast. Um, but you have a 76 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: basically a roundsh ball made of lead which is fired 77 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: using um, the explosive gunpowder and the the gases propelled 78 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: the ball out of the tube, and you know they go, well, 79 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: they go where they go. They generally go in the 80 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 1: direction that the barrel was pointing. Yes, more specific than 81 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: that we cannot naked. Yeah, they weren't nearly as accurate 82 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: as a rifled barrel, which is what which is what 83 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: Jonathan was just talking about, where they there are grooves 84 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: inside the barrel and they are um, and they travel 85 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: in a spiral patterns. I remember, correctly, didn't we talk 86 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: about something in the rim when they started grooving the barrel? 87 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: But they weren't. They weren't in a spiral pattern. They 88 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: were straight. It might may have been I remember, I'm sorry, 89 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: I just came to mind. But eventually they did hit 90 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: onto the fact that a helical groove spiral groove would 91 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: h helical'd on where where that would create enough spend 92 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: so that the projectile would become much more stable off 93 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: Like this is the same sort of idea you get 94 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: when you have a football player throwing a football, absolutely 95 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: American football. American football player, Um, how to touch the 96 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: ball with your hands? You know when you hear about 97 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: like when you hear about like a tight spiral that 98 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: helps that projectile, in this case the American football maintain 99 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: a precise flight path. Well, while that was very useful 100 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 1: in making firearms more accurate, it was not thought of 101 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: as a way of identifying a firearm based upon a 102 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: projectile that had been fired for several centuries. It wasn't 103 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: until the eighteen hundreds. Yeah, and uh, actually I have 104 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: the earliest and this this is all from a website 105 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: called Firearms i D. And it was created by a 106 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: guy named Scott Doyle who did some amazing research on ballistics, 107 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: the history of it and all of the elements that 108 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: go into identifying firearms. If you are interested in the subject, 109 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: I recommend you check out Firearms i D because it 110 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: is truly exhaustive. I'm only going to give a small 111 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: fraction of what he made available. So the earliest event 112 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: he found, the earliest documented case of identifying a firearm 113 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: UH in a criminal case happened in eight in London, 114 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: and what had happened was a homeowner was killed by 115 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: by a gun and a servant was suspected of being 116 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: the perpetrator. And UH a fellow named Henry Goddard UM 117 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: who was with the London Police or with a branch 118 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: of the London Police, was assigned the case and he 119 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: examined the the the projectile that killed this shop owner 120 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: and determined that it was made by a particular mold 121 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: um by UH, which meant that it came from a 122 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:51,119 Speaker 1: specific company. And then he looked at the paper patch 123 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: that was used in the the the firing as well. Now, 124 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: this paper what it did was it created a seal 125 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: between the powered and the projectile so that when the 126 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: powdering knights and the gases expand, the projectile would have 127 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: a good seal on it, so it would it would 128 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: fly out properly. And you saw that this paper patch 129 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: had been made from some newspaper that had been in 130 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: the room. He actually found the page where the newspaper 131 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: had been torn to make that patch, and so they 132 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: were able to determine that it was in fact the 133 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: servant who appeared to have fired on this shop owner. 134 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: And so that was the first case. Now in that case, 135 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: it wasn't an idea, you know, specifically checking the bullet 136 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: for the spiral marks that would indicate, um, what gone 137 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: fired it, because that's that's something else we should mention. 138 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: These rifling marks, uh ifact, That's why we call it 139 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: a rifle. There's these rifling marks that are on the 140 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: bullet itself. That's that's caused as a bullet travels down 141 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: this this grooved barrel, it cards little scratches into the bullet. Yes, 142 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: and so these scratches are unique to a particular weapon. 143 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: Even even two weapons of the same make and model 144 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: will produce different scratches, at least on a on a 145 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 1: tiny you know, beyond a superfluous glance, you'll be able 146 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: to see that there are differences, and so it's almost 147 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: like a fingerprint. If you are able to see, you know, 148 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: tell that two different bullets are close enough and identity 149 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: that these these markings are really really, you know, to 150 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: all intents and purposes identical. You can say that they 151 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: were both fired by the same weapon. So if you 152 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: happen to have that weapon in your possession and you've 153 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: done a bunch of test firings and all the bullets 154 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: are coming out the same way and they matched the 155 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: bullet that was used in a crime, you can feel 156 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: pretty confident saying that that, in fact was the weapon 157 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: that was used in that crime. Um. So yeah, I 158 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: mean there, Um, there are many cases in which you 159 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: know this has been this has been used. I mean 160 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: one of the first I read, and I read an 161 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: excellent article by Katherine ramsland um in uh in which 162 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: she was talking about do you remember learning about Sacco 163 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: and Vanzetti in your American history class? This very controversial? 164 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, Um. This was a case in which, uh, Um, 165 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: the payroll was being delivered to a shoe factory and 166 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: a a couple of guys came up and shot the 167 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: guards and UM, you know, they basically made off with 168 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: the money and UH so they started looking for information. 169 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: This by the way, was April fifty, UM, and this 170 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: is when they started looking. Uh. This really was the 171 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: incident that made modern ballistics a science, I think, UM, 172 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: just from from the way they handled it. So UM, 173 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: the investigators behind this uh collected all the evidence they could, 174 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: including the the spent shell casings. UM. They went back 175 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: to looking at the manufacturers of of weapons. UM. There 176 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: were about six at the time that they looked at, 177 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: and uh they turned out to be Remington, Winchester, and 178 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: Peters UM that that could use these these casings. UM. 179 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: And what they what they ended up doing was they started, 180 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: uh you know, looking around at you know, what they 181 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: could get from this information. And as it turns out, 182 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: one of the incriminating factors was the fact that for 183 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: one of the weapons that they had, the only bullets 184 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: that they could find, uh that would fit that weapon 185 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: or in Psacho's pocket. UM, which is pretty incriminating evidence, 186 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: but it's not exactly that's circumstantial, you know. UM. So 187 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: what they did was they talked to somebody who had 188 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: worked with uh sort of preliminary ballistics technology. His name 189 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: was Albert H. Hamilton's and UH he actually had been 190 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: UM working with UH with other cases and UH he 191 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: wasn't completely scientific um in his methods, but he he 192 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: actually got stuck in the middle of the case and 193 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: during this UH the Sacco and Vanzettie case, UM came 194 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: in with new weapons that were uh similar to the 195 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: ones that they had and and basically disassembled them in 196 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: front of the judge who noticed that he was swapping 197 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: parts with the other gun and went, no, you can't 198 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 1: do that, and they threw it out. But they did 199 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: give the information to Calvin Goddard, someone who is quite 200 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: famous in ballistics forensics. Yeah, he's he's I would argue 201 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: that he's probably considered by many people to be the 202 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: father of this technology. He worked with a guy named 203 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: Charles Waite at in New York with the Bureau of 204 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: Forensic Ballistics, and he was using microscopes and a helixometer, 205 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: which is a probe that you could use to look 206 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 1: at gun barrels. UM. I imagined that was used in 207 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: the manufacturing of these weapons. UM. But what he did 208 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: was he fired these the weapons used or or in 209 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: Sacco and Vanzetti's possession um into a lot of cotton 210 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: and compared the casing and the bullet to the ones 211 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: recovered in the investigation, and they were similar enough, um 212 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: to incriminate both of them. Now, um, Vanzetti, I mean, 213 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: they put both of them to death. But Vanzetti said 214 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: he was innocent, and uh apparently Sacco's uh last words 215 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: were long live anarchy, which doesn't exactly uh he he 216 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: doesn't exactly say, well, you know, I didn't do any 217 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: of that. But yeah, and in later years too, they've 218 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: still they continue to examine that and uh, right now, 219 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: although it's still controversial whether or not these guys were 220 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: railroaded or whether or not they actually did commit the crime. Um, Uh, 221 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: they still say that, Uh, the weapons still support Goddard's 222 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: findings even years later. So the technology we're using now 223 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 1: suggest that those weapons were the ones used. Yeah. The 224 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: that Bureau of Forensic Ballistics was formed in in April 225 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: nineteen five in New York City, and the whole purpose 226 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: behind it was that by you remember, back in eighteen 227 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: thirty five was the first time we see someone trying 228 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: to identify a firearm, uh, after a crime has happened 229 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: the firearm itself was the one that was used by NIVE. 230 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: There had been a lot of pioneers who worked on 231 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: this idea of identifying firearms based upon the projectiles they fired. 232 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: And uh, the problem was that the the resources were scattered, right. 233 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you had you had some communities that might 234 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: have an expert that resides within that community, but then 235 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: you know, you might have hundreds of miles of of 236 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: area where there is no expert, there's no one to 237 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: call upon. And so the Bureau was formed as a 238 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: resource for law enforcement agencies across the United States. There 239 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: were other countries that were doing similar things. Actually, a 240 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: lot of this early research where the idea was, hey, look, 241 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: they are these markings on this bullet. They're consistent with 242 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: every bullet that's fired from this particular gun, and they're 243 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: different from all the ones that are fired from that gun. 244 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: That kind of work was being done all over the world. 245 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: In fact, there were a lot of people in France 246 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: who wrote a lot of instrumental early papers on identifying 247 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: firearms based upon their projectiles or Yeah, and then to 248 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: the FBI. The Federal Bureau of Investigation here in the 249 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: United States was directed by a their jaunty head of 250 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: staff Jagger Hoover. Yes, I think that's the first time 251 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: I've ever heard is I think that's what Jay stands for, right, 252 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: John T. Edgar Hoover, Um, No, not at all. Uh 253 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: he know. I was more like really said that elite. 254 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: Uh So it was a question mark, like the sarcastic kind. 255 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: It wasn't actually an interrobang, gotcha. So he directed that 256 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: the FBI should create a lab for ballistics forensics as well, 257 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: and so this was becoming really serious business, and there 258 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: were there were a lot of early cases between you know, 259 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds and and nineteen twenty that established 260 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: that this was a legitimate means of investigation. So let's 261 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about what you actually do 262 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: when you're trying to identify whether or not a particular 263 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: bullet was fired from a particular gun. First of all, 264 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: it helps if we if we talk about bullets and cartridges, 265 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: because we and we've done this in another podcast, but 266 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: it always helps because a lot of I think people 267 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: who are generally unfamiliar with guns don't know the anatomy 268 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: of a gun. Yep. And that's part of why I 269 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: wanted to mention that about the muskets um because you know, 270 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: after a while they realized that the system that we're 271 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: about to talk about, it makes the weapons much more 272 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: reliable using those things, and faster to operate because rather 273 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: than having to put the powder in the in the 274 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 1: wadding and all that stuff in there and and prepare 275 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: the weapon to be fired. I mean, I saw I 276 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: can't even remember what show it was. I saw a 277 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 1: thing on TV where they had somebody firing and must 278 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: get as fast as they could, just to see how 279 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: quickly a trained um musketeer could fire a weapon. It's 280 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: about three times per minute. Three times per minute is 281 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: considered an excellent time fast. Yeah, I know, I've seen 282 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: I've seen artillery cruise that we're using, uh period cannon's 283 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: um actually wasn't a cannon, but anyway, it was. It 284 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: was an artillery gun, period artillery gun. And they talked 285 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: about how even with a well trained group of troops 286 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: who were familiar with the weapon, three times a minute 287 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 1: was considered to be the peak performance. So one of 288 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: the biggest innovations was the idea of why don't we 289 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: take the system of gunpowder and wadding and shot and 290 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: all that, and why don't we try and figure out 291 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: a way of packaging it all into one thing that 292 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: you load into a gun once and then you fire. 293 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: So instead of having to load in all these separate 294 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: pieces and pack them together and hope that it fires correctly, 295 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: it's all packaged together. And that's the idea behind the cartridge. 296 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: In fact, the earliest cartridges were these little paper cartridges 297 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: that had everything packed together, and uh, they were used 298 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: in the Civil War mainly, but then actually that was 299 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: sort of the step between where you put the cartridge 300 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: in and then and then the musket ball right right, 301 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: the shot. Yeah, the cartridge contained essentially all the stuff 302 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: that you would have put in previously besides the shot itself. Well, 303 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: the modern day cartridges have the the fuel that's going 304 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: to push the the bullet forward, and the bullet itself 305 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: all packed together. So you've got a case that's typically 306 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,479 Speaker 1: made out of something like brass or maybe steel, depends 307 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: on the particular manufacturer, and the ammunition involved a typically brass, 308 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: and then you have a bullet at the end. The 309 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: bullet is the actual projectile that will fire out the gun. 310 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: The case remains behind. Now, the case also contains it 311 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: contains powder, primer and a primer mix and uh, and 312 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: that's the stuff that when a firing pin from the 313 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: weapon hits the primer, that ignites the primer, which then 314 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: in turn ignites the powder which creates this massive amount 315 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: of gas. Massive and a relative term, I should say, 316 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: um amount of gas within the case. That's what pushes 317 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: that that bullet out of the weapon. So the case 318 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: remains behind. The case is actually altered by this because 319 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: the gases are pretty hot. Then they pushed pretty hard, 320 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: so the case itself will change a little bit. Then 321 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: you have to extract the case from the weapon and 322 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: put a new cartridge in its place in the chamber 323 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: of the weapon in order to fire it again. And 324 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: of course we've also talked about machine guns. Uh, if 325 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: you're talking about an automatic weapon, you put in you 326 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: have a magazine feeding mechanism, feeding mechanism that will automatically 327 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: pop the next it will pop the spent cartridge out 328 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: of the weapon, and uh, load the next cartridge in 329 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: and ready to be fired. And it happens very very quickly. 330 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: So but it operates on the same same principle. So 331 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: here's the interesting thing, A couple of interesting things. First 332 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: of all, we talked about the rifling with the grooves 333 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: within the barrel which are going to cut into the bullet, 334 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: making a fingerprint on that bullet, so that if you 335 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: were to find two bullets fired by the same gun 336 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: and you were to compare them side by side, you 337 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 1: should be able to see the same markings on both 338 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: because it's it's going to carve it out the same way. Well, 339 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: the same sort of thing goes plays for the cartridge 340 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: or like the case, rather for the cartridge. Um, the case, 341 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 1: the spent cartridge is going to have some markings on 342 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: it as well. Um, some of it may be matches 343 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: just from you know, the way that it sits in 344 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: the chamber, or if there if there's an extractor, if 345 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: there's an actual mechanical element in there that kicks that 346 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: spent cartridge out, that can leave a mark on the 347 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: case as well. So that way, if you don't maybe 348 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: you don't even have the bullets, maybe you just have 349 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 1: to spent cases, you can compare those and see. So 350 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: I stepped one of identifying the weapon is identifying what 351 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: caliber of bullet was used, and you know what kind 352 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: of cartridge was used, because that will limit the type 353 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: of weapons that could have fired that particular ammo, right, 354 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: because not every gun fires every immunition. Because anyone who 355 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: has ever worked with guns nose are very specific kinds 356 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: of ammo that work with particular guns, and you cannot 357 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: you cannot interchange them. Chris and I have more to 358 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: say about ballistics and forensics science, but first let's take 359 00:21:54,320 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 1: a quick break to thank our sponsor. Each weapon. Now, 360 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: each manufacturer when they make when they put the grooves 361 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: in there and the the section between UM. Basically the 362 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: ridges around the grooves are called lands. UM. Those metal 363 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: ridges basically are what helped the bullet reach its destination 364 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: by providing it the spin and accuracy UM. But they 365 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: also are are common to manufacturers. So one weapons manufacturer 366 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 1: might put six grooves in the barrel, one might use four. UM. 367 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: So one of the things these marks left and they 368 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: are unique to every weapon. UM. These marks are going 369 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: to help the forensics investigator if if if they can 370 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: find the bullets, they're going to be able to identify 371 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: which manufacturer made the gun. That will help track it 372 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: down and then from there they can look at other 373 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: things that will help them at least narrow down and say, well, 374 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: this couldn't have been Uh, this couldn't have been the 375 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: gun that fired it because it's not even the same manufacturer. 376 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: It's not the right people. So we can rule this 377 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: out because there they can look at specific guns, because 378 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: multiple manufacturers can make the same type of gun. Yes, 379 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: so yeah, so narrowing it down to your first you 380 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: look at the caliber of the bullet, uh, and the 381 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: case so that you can determine what kind of ammo 382 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: was used. That narrows it down to a range of 383 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: weapons that might be able to fire that. Looking at 384 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 1: the actual patterns on the bullet itself and well, we'll 385 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: give you at least an idea of of the specific 386 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: type of weapon used and the manufacturer. And then again 387 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: comparing that bullet with one like a test bullet fired 388 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 1: from a weapon. We'll let you know if it's fired 389 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: from the same weapon. So you're you keep narrowing it down. 390 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: This is very scientific. I mean you're talking about going 391 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: from the general to the very specific. So you're just 392 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: eliminating all the other options until what you're left with 393 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: is the only, hopefully the only uh possible answer. And um, 394 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: there are a lot of different ways that that these 395 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: the cartridges can have marks on Besides the ejection UM mark, 396 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: there can be firing pen marks, so you can see 397 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: how the firing pin struck the bottom of the cartridge. 398 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: That will tell you a lot about the type of weapon. 399 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: Like there's certain weapons that have a very distinct firing 400 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: pen mark, so like a square, one's good indicator that 401 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: was a glock that fired the weapon. And there are 402 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: certain marks that are you're going to find that are 403 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: common to particular types of weapons. So forensics experts will 404 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: use that when they're actually examining UM bullets. So let's 405 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: let's say there's a there's a crime case. Let's make 406 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: this more specific. There's a crime case in which someone 407 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: was shot UM and the police have recovered a weapon 408 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: from a suspect. They do not know if the weapon 409 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 1: is the one that was used used in the crime. 410 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: They do know that it matches the same UM model 411 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: and maker of the weapon that was used in the crime. 412 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: But that's all I know. The forensics expert what they 413 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,959 Speaker 1: will do is they'll take the gun UM. They'll take 414 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: possession of the gun that's from the suspect, and they'll 415 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: fire it into a water tank. And the water tank 416 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: is a long tank of water several, and it's usually 417 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: around ten feet long. It's got about three ft wide 418 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,239 Speaker 1: three ft high full of water and on one end 419 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: of this water tank which is sealed on all sides, 420 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: which is important you don't want any stray bullets flying out. 421 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: There's a a hole through one side, a tube where 422 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: you can fire. Through that tube, it goes into the water. 423 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: The water is meant to slow down the progress of 424 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: the bullet, and as it slows down, it'll come to 425 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: arrest at the bottom of the tank. You the forensics 426 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: expert will retrieve that bullet and then they take that 427 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: bullet and the bullet used in the crime, assuming they've 428 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: recovered a bullet, because otherwise there's no point in doing this. 429 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: So they've recovered a bullet from the crime itself. You 430 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: put that and the test bullet or several test bullets 431 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: into a macroscope, a comparison macroscope, and you might think, hey, Jonathan, 432 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: what's a macroscope. I've heard of microscopes. Well, macroscope is 433 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: it's it's a device that does magnify things, but it 434 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: usually magnifies them by a pretty small multiplier compared to 435 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: a microscope. You know, microscopes you're talking about multiplying magnifying 436 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: something by a hundred times or more. Macroscopes tend to 437 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: be five, ten, maybe twenty times, so it's not it's 438 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: not giving you that incredibly up close look that a 439 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: microscope would. It's called a comparison macroscope because you can 440 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 1: actually put in two different items. So in this case, 441 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: you put the bullet from the crime and the bullet 442 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: from the test, uh onto the little platform it actually 443 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: and here's there with some sticky stuff some some you know, 444 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: it's essentially glue um, and then you put it through 445 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: the microscope. The microscope directs the images up to the 446 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: viewfinder where you look in and you can actually see 447 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: side by side the two projectiles, so it looks like 448 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: it looks like they are, you know, right next to 449 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: each other, even though they're actually on two different little 450 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 1: platforms on the macroscope itself, and it allows you to 451 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: take a really close look and compare those markings at 452 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: a a nice magnified level to determine whether or not 453 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: they are identical, or whether or not the markings are identical. Obviously, 454 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: the bullets can't be yeah, because someone is probably saying yeah, 455 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: but Jonathan, why do they have to fire it into 456 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: a water tank. I mean, why couldn't they just you know, uh, 457 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: go to the crime scene and shoot it off the 458 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: wall and see what happens. Well for one thing, of course, 459 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: again you don't want stray bullets. But um, you know, 460 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: I don't know if any if a lot of people 461 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: know that. I mean, it probably is common sense when 462 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: you think about it. But bullets the form quite a 463 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: bit in the process of firing them. Um. Actually, I 464 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: remember my rifle recourse at camp when I was a kid. Um. 465 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: Every once in a while, Uh, the instructor would take 466 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: us down to the end of the range and there 467 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: was a big pile of dirt there. So the bullets 468 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: would go through the targets and hit the dirt and 469 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: stopped there. So we would go in and dig some 470 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: of them out and they would come out in the 471 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 1: oddest shapes. The thing is, um, you want the bullet 472 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: to be identifiable enough so that you can really see 473 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: the markings on it. Um, and shooting it against something 474 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,880 Speaker 1: else that will catch it. Uh, you know, it will 475 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: also be deformed by the impact if the water slows 476 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: it down and it basically just drops to the bottom 477 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: of the tank. Once it this forward momentum stops, um, 478 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: then it's going to be much less affected by the 479 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: impact of of uh its landing and um, then you 480 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: can get a good idea of what is actually going 481 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: to look like in the marks that are on it. 482 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: And and sometimes the bullets retrieved from crime scenes are 483 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: in really bad shape, I mean, because they've they've gone 484 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: through various materials, especially if you know they maybe hit 485 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: like a door frame or something or you know whatever. Uh, 486 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: And it can be a challenge to identify them just 487 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: because the bullets themselves may not be indecent enough shape 488 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: for you to be able to make a good comparison. 489 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: But this is to try and make the the conditions 490 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: as ideal as possible so that you can at least 491 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: narrow things down. You know, the goal really is to 492 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: see if you can eliminate that gun from suspicion, because 493 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: if you can, then you know you're on the wrong 494 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: track and you can go direct your attention elsewhere and 495 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: not waste time on something that ultimately is a dead end. 496 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: So UM, yeah, I mean that's that's your basic approach. 497 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: It's kind of interesting, like the whole process of developing this, 498 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: I mean, there were there were earlier uh forensics experts 499 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: who would compare bullets. They didn't have the luxury of 500 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: a comparison macroscope to use, so in many cases they 501 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: were using photography. They would take um pictures of these 502 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: bullets and try and enlarge the photographs as large as 503 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: they could and compare them that way, and try and 504 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: find as many points of comparison as they could between 505 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: the two to determine whether or not a bullet was 506 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: in fact fired by the same weapon as another bullet. 507 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: So again, points of comparison, just like with fingerprints, you know, 508 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: you look for a certain number, and if you figure 509 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: that if you find now uh like a dozen or 510 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: two dozen points of comparison that are identical, the chances 511 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: of that being just coincidence are pretty slim. So that's 512 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: when you sit there and say, no, I'm pretty sure 513 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: this bullet was fired by the same gun as the 514 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: one that I tested. We've got a bit more to 515 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: say about ballistics, but before we do, let's take aim 516 00:30:52,920 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: at a commercial break and another thing that that Goddard 517 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: did along with his partner um back in the very 518 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: early days of all this, he started they started compiling 519 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: a database of information about different weapons UM, which is, 520 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: if you think about it, rather crucial uh to doing 521 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: this because it allows you to know, you know, in 522 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: which direction and which angle a particular manufacturers uh lands 523 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: are going to show up inside the barrel. UM helps 524 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: you eliminate you know, they can look at a bullet 525 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: and go, oh, well, I know that it's not this 526 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: or this or this or this, And by the scientific method, 527 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: I've at least narrowed it down to one manufacturer and 528 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: from there, you know, and and having all that information 529 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: in a database and comparing the weapons uh and I'm sorry, 530 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: the bullets side by side, it gives you, um the 531 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: ability to scientifically rule things out step by step. And 532 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: he really created a method and a plan for doing 533 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,239 Speaker 1: this that set the stage for what we know as 534 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: modern ballistics work. Yeah. And it's if you read about again, 535 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: I do urge you to check out more information about 536 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: the progression of of keep gathering this information because it 537 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: goes beyond just comparing bullets to each other. The history 538 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: of forensics is pretty fascinating and in some ways sometimes 539 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: darkly humorous and in some cases just bizarre. Like you'll 540 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,959 Speaker 1: you'll find out about people sheriffs who found a victim 541 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: who had um a hole in their shirt and there 542 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: was suspicion that perhaps a a gun had you know, 543 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: the person had been shot by a gun and that 544 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: a bullet had toward the whole. So the sheriff would 545 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: take the shirt out to a firing range and fire 546 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: bullets into it to see if the tears that were 547 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: made by the bullets were similar to the one that 548 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: was on the shirt in the first place. Well, they 549 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: can tell, um whether a wound is an entrance wound 550 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: or an exit wound some by the the type of 551 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: hole that it leaves. I mean, if you're um right 552 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: on top of somebody, uh, it will um do more damage. 553 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: If you're firing at somebody at point blank range, um, 554 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: then if you are farther away. But you can tell 555 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: by the direction of the fabric, you know, if it 556 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: if it's going into the wound, then you could see 557 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: generally that it's probably an entrance wound. And if the 558 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: fibers are are spreading outward, then it's probably. And it 559 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: depends on the bullet too, of course, there are bullets 560 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: that do a lot more damage on on one side 561 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: or another, so that that factors into it. Too. Of 562 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: course they'll talk about things like blood spatter. Um, I 563 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: have a great story here. I want to want to 564 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: tell them so alright. So in uh, in nineteen o three, 565 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: a fellow named E. J. Churchill in London, England provided testimony, 566 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: uh do testimony that regards an experiment he had performed 567 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: that involved shooting bullets into sheep's skulls. Yeah, so skulls 568 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: of sheep, not actual sheep at this point that the 569 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: sheep have already shuffled off the wooly mortal coil and 570 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 1: their skulls have remained. And what had happened was, um, 571 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: it was all revolving around a case where there was 572 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: a young woman who or a woman I don't know 573 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: if she was young, actually a woman who was shot 574 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: and killed in Essex, England. And uh they figured that 575 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: she had been shot by a thirty two caliber revolver, 576 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: And so Churchill took a similar revolver with the same 577 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 1: sort of ammunition and a whole bunch of sheep skulls 578 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: and started shooting the sheep skulls at various distances to 579 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: determine to kind of compare the damage done, to see 580 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: how far away the shooter might have been from the 581 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: victim by observing, you know, the damage done to the 582 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: sheep skulls, and he came to the conclusion that the 583 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: the revolver was shot somewhere between six and twelve inches 584 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: away from the victim, and this was used. This testimony 585 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: was used in the court case. In fact, the the 586 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: accute suspect was found guilty and put to death. So 587 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: the experiments early on were very practical, you know, the 588 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: idea of we have this one set of circumstances, we 589 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: need to try and recreate it as closely as possible 590 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: to to determine whether or not the scenario we have 591 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 1: in our mind is actually at all accurate. And uh, 592 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: and you know, like I said, the history of forensics 593 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: is filled with stories that make that one seem tame 594 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,800 Speaker 1: and boring in comparison. Well, and and there are others 595 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: that are oddly similar, um, that make you realize that 596 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 1: it isn't always exact. Because um, Ramslin mentioned a case 597 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,959 Speaker 1: that happened in Oklahoma where a robber used a seven 598 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: magnum and uh, there was a witness and he shot 599 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: her right in the head. I'm just sorry, um. And 600 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,240 Speaker 1: uh what happened was the bullet went into her skull, 601 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: but it traveled around the inside of her skull before leaving, 602 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 1: and she ended up surviving and testifying against the robber. 603 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: And then another case, uh, somebody got shot in the 604 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: wrist with a twenty two, which is a much smaller 605 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: caliber bullet um and the bullet went into a vein, 606 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: traveled into the heart and killed the person. Bullets don't 607 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: always do well. And I also think I've even heard 608 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: of people getting shot in the head and the bullet 609 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: hits the skull and doesn't penetrate the skull, but rather 610 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 1: goes underneath the skin, travels around the skull, and pops 611 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 1: out the other side without actually penetrating the skull itself. 612 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: I remember, I distinctly remember when I was living in 613 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: North Carolina, a police dog getting shot in the head 614 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: and that happening. It's yeah, uh yeah, this is getting 615 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 1: really much more gruesome than I had intended. You don't mean, 616 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: I don't mean for it to be gruesome, but I 617 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: think it's a situation. Well, I mean, the dog, the 618 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: dog lives. Um, it's a it's a situation that shows 619 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: you that, you know, we sort of assume that if 620 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: you get shot, if you get shot in the right 621 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: place and at the bright distance that you know, there 622 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 1: are very few chances that you're gonna make it if 623 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: somebody's doing what they're supposed to be or what they 624 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: intend to do, let's say, with the weapon. Um. But 625 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: bullets don't always behave themselves, which is why these ballistic 626 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 1: forensics are so important because they you know, they've gotten 627 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: it down to a science, so at least you have 628 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 1: a better idea of what's going on. And we should 629 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: also point out that stuff that this you know, we've 630 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: been talking a lot about bullets. The story is completely 631 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: different if you were to talk about things like shotguns. 632 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: They do not have the rifled barrels, so I mean 633 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 1: you're firing shot at that point, not not lots of 634 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: little balls. Usually occasionally you might have a slug, you 635 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: could do a shot slug, but at any rate, yeah, 636 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 1: taser's yeah, totally different story there. But in those cases 637 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: it's that you have to look for different things. You 638 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: can't you know, obviously you can't compare bullets like you 639 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:33,320 Speaker 1: could with rifled weapons. UM. And in fact, Scott Doyle 640 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: on his site rights it should be noted that not 641 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,359 Speaker 1: all firearms leave consistent, reproducible marks. But overall, it has 642 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,800 Speaker 1: been my experience that around eighty percent of the firearms 643 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: that I examined produce what is sometimes called a mechanical 644 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: fingerprint on the bullets and cartridge cases that pass through them. 645 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: So it is possible even for you to get a 646 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:56,760 Speaker 1: gun that, through some reason or another, uh, the marks 647 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: that come out, they end up on the bullets the 648 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: cartridges are not I'm not reproducible, and it could just 649 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: be that there's, you know, uh, some sort of weird 650 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: faulty part of that gun. You know, it's there's a 651 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: lot of different factors that could that could cause that. 652 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: And in those cases, of course, then you can't you know, 653 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: the ballistics evidence, as far as comparing bullets to each other, 654 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: is no longer really reliable. You have to rely on 655 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: other kinds of evidence in in that uh, in that 656 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,919 Speaker 1: sort of case, I would be interesting to know if 657 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: any UH law enforcement authorities who have worked with forensics 658 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: and ballistics have are listening to our show, you know, 659 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: so please let us know if you you are, because 660 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,839 Speaker 1: this is interesting stuff, and thank you for the work 661 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: that you do because it makes a difference. And that 662 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: concludes this classic episode of tech Stuff. I hope you 663 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,399 Speaker 1: guys enjoyed it. It's always interesting to go back and 664 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: take a listen to these old episodes, some of which 665 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: in the upcoming weeks are going to be quaint because 666 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: we recorded them so many years ago and so much 667 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 1: has changed in that time. But I hope you join 668 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 1: me for those I very much enjoy revisiting them. If 669 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: you guys have any suggestions for future episodes of tech Stuff, 670 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,800 Speaker 1: or you just want to get in touch, send an email. 671 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 1: The address is tech stuff at how stuff works dot com, 672 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,720 Speaker 1: or pop on over to the website that's tech stuff 673 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: podcast dot com. That's where you're gonna find the archive 674 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: of all the old episodes. You're gonna find links to 675 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 1: our social media, you're gonna find a link to our 676 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: online store. And we greatly appreciate you listening and you 677 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: visiting our site, and I'll talk to you again really 678 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 1: soon for more on this and bathands of other topics. 679 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 1: Is that how stuff works dot com.