1 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to talking politics. It's been another wild week in 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: Trump's America. Venezuela's out, Iran is in apparently, and in 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: Minnesota there's nothing to see the killing of an unarmed mother. 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: Don't even need to investigate it. Don't you worry? Nothing 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: to see here. 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 2: We're going to get into it all. 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: And I've got a great guest, a longtime friend from 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: my days in Virginia, one of my favorite NATSEK experts, 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: Phil Mud, will join me in a bit to give 10 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: us a better picture of everything that's going on here 11 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: at home, but also in Venezuela and Iran and Greenland. 12 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 2: Oh my. 13 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: But first, I want to talk about something painful, and 14 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: I wonder if you guys can relate. I grew up 15 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 1: a child of the eighties. We were Ronald Reagan's shining 16 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: city on a hill, a beacon of freedom and democracy, 17 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: and whatever you thought of Reagan's policies, it was important 18 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: for the world at that time anyway to see us 19 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: as an example, as a country that would fight for 20 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: the right of all people to live in a free 21 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: and fair society. He took that fight to Gorbachev in 22 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: Russia right and cemented our standing in the world as 23 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,839 Speaker 1: defenders of democracy, unafraid of bullies who would otherwise terrorize 24 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: their own people and keep them oppressed. This was the 25 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: ethos I grew up in, and it's what helped shape 26 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: my patriotism, my love of this country, my pride in 27 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: American exceptionalism. And I'll be honest, it's hard today to 28 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: be proud. It's really hard to be patriotic, and it's 29 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: really hard to locate the exceptionalism. That's not just because 30 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: we've let our allies down, which which really bothers me, 31 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: retreating from fights we could easily help win in places like. 32 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 2: Ukraine, for example. 33 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: Instead we've decided Vladimir Putin should be allowed to just 34 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: take us sovereign nation and and keep a little of 35 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: it if that means ending the fighting. It's not just 36 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: because we're threatening to invade sovereign nations again, allies like Canada, Greenland, Mexico, Cuba, Columbia. 37 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: And it's not just because we're bombing supposed drug boats 38 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: and extra judicious judicially killing people, kidnapping foreign leaders to 39 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: take the royal and doing it all without congressional approval. 40 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: That bothers me too, But mostly it's because we're increasingly 41 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: acting like the very bad. 42 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: Actors we've opposed for years here at home. 43 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: This week, Trump posted this on truth Social He said, 44 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: Iranian patriots keep protesting, take over your institutions. Save the 45 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: names of the killers and abusers. They will pay a 46 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: big price. I have canceled all meetings with Iranian officials 47 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: until the senseless killing of protesters stops. Help is on 48 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: its way now. It's hard to read that and make 49 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: sense of anything now. Irani and civilians, in case you 50 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: haven't been following, have been protesting in the streets for 51 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: weeks in an effort to express their frustration with a 52 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: bruising economy and inflation rate over forty percent, food shortages, 53 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 1: rolling blackouts, and in response, the Islamic Republic has open 54 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: fire on its own people, killing anywhere from twenty four 55 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: hundred to as many as twenty thousand people in just 56 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: over two weeks. We don't know because they turned off 57 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: all the broadcasting mechanisms. 58 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: The situation's dire. 59 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: There are reports that doctors and aid groups can't keep 60 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: up with the amount of injuries they're seeing, and that 61 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: the regime will start publicly executing protesters, including twenty six 62 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: year old orfon Sultani, whose judicial proceedings were quote fast 63 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: tracked in just two days. Trump is vowing quote very 64 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: strong action in Iran if it follows through with those 65 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,839 Speaker 1: threats to execut hut Sultani and other's action, which could 66 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: include everything from I guess sanctions to strikes on military 67 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: installations to cyber attacks. 68 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: Who knows. 69 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: It's hard to reconcile this Trump, the one whose rescuer 70 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: of the oppressed, defender of democracy over there with the 71 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: other one who's simultaneously threatening his own citizens for protesting 72 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: his immigration policies. In the wake of an ICE officer 73 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: shooting and killing an unarmed Minneapolis mother, Trump and his 74 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: cabinet have been defiant. They've largely refused to offer even 75 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: a modicum of sympathy for Renee Good. Instead, Trump has 76 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: suggested her quote highly disrespectful attitude may have justified her death. 77 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: Vice President Jady Vance decided immediately that she was to blame, saying, 78 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: what I am certain of is she violated the law. 79 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: He called Good, who leaves behind three children, a deranged 80 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: leftist who tried to run the officer over. DHS Secretary 81 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: Christinome accused Good of an act of domestic terrorism just 82 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: hours after her death, despite no one having conducted any investigation. 83 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: Of the incident yet. 84 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: The administration furthermore strategically boxed out Minnesota law enforcement from 85 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: joining participating in a federal investigation of the shooting, and 86 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: now Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche says there's currently no 87 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,679 Speaker 1: basis for a criminal civil rights investigation of any kind. 88 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: So the irony of Trump's pro democracy message to Iranians 89 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: and his decidedly desponic message to Americans should be lost 90 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: on no one. Nor should the parallels that Iranian leaders 91 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: are calling their protesters rioters and terrorists while Trump officials 92 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: are using the same language against Americans is chilling. That 93 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: Iran is jailing and quote fast tracking the due process 94 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: of protesters, while Trump officials immediately decided the ICE officer 95 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: who killed Good was innocent, not even worth investigating. 96 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 2: That's deeply disturbing. 97 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: That Iran is threatening to execute protesters while masked ICE 98 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: agents in unmarked vehicles have also threatened to kill protesters 99 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: and have already used deadly force against them. 100 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 2: It's terrifying. 101 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: I heard at least one agent recorded the other day 102 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: asking a protester, did you not learn from what just happened. Understandably, 103 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: Americans are alarmed, and they should be. According to a 104 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: now SSRs CNN poll, Trump's anti immigration efforts in Minnesota 105 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: and elsewhere are really not popular. Fifty eight percent of 106 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: Americans disapprove of the way Trump's handling immigration. Fifty one 107 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: percent say ICE's actions are making cities feel less safe, 108 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 1: versus just thirty one percent who say more safe. Forty 109 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: seven percent say they're more concerned that the government will 110 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: go too far in cracking down on protesters versus thirty 111 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 1: seven percent who say they're more concers earned the protests 112 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: we'll get out of control. Fifty six percent say the 113 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: use of force against Renee Good was inappropriate, versus just 114 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: twenty six percent who say it was appropriate. While a 115 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: majority of voters may have been with Trump on the 116 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: need to lower crime and curtail illegal immigration, and I 117 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: was too, It's hard to imagine any wanting to see 118 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: our cities militarized to the point where they feel unsafe, 119 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: where they fear protesting could get them killed, where it's 120 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: totally possible they could be rounded up without due process, 121 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: where there are eerie parallels to what's happening in Iran, 122 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: a theocratic dictatorship, while ICE agents have their proverbial boots 123 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: on the necks of American citizens. Trump is unironically promising 124 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: to defend democracy a world away. But it's hard to 125 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: maintain the moral high ground and wag your finger at 126 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: Iran when you're stomping all over democratic freedoms here at home. 127 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly. 128 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: It's a perplexing and alarming place for a country that 129 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: was once considered a. 130 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 2: Beacon of freedom, a shining city on a hill. 131 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: And with every threat to American democracy Trump issues, I 132 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: think he weakens our nation. And then you wonder, are 133 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: we still a force for good? Are we still exceptional? 134 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: Are we still a nation that others can look up to? 135 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: It's hard to answer yes anymore, and that breaks my heart. Okay, 136 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: after the break of my interview with former CIA and 137 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: FBI official national security expert fill Mutt. 138 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: Welcome back to talking politics. Let's get to the interview. 139 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: Joining me now is a longtime friend some when I 140 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: go to for the real insider. 141 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 2: Scoop on Natzek issues. 142 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: He worked both at the CIA and the FBI and 143 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: counter terrorism he worked in the White House as the 144 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: director of golf Affairs. He's been called a national hero 145 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: and a NATSCK giant. Welcome Phil Mudd, thank you, thanks 146 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: for having me. I'm glad you're here. There's a lot, 147 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: there's a lot to get into, and I go as 148 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: far as you want with any of this, but I 149 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: really just want your straight take, and I'd like to 150 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: go one theater at a time. 151 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 2: So let's start. 152 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,719 Speaker 1: Let's start here in Minnesota, here at home. Does How 153 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: does it play out in your mind when you've got 154 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: local law enforcement clashing with federal law enforcement, local politicians 155 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: suing the federal government, citizens angered and in the streets 156 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: ice emboldened and being told by the President that they 157 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: have total immunity. 158 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 2: Where does this go? 159 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 3: I think, when I. 160 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 4: Look at all the problems that we're going to talk about, 161 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 4: whether it's Greenland or whether it's Latin America, whether it's Minnesota, 162 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 4: you have to pick and choose which ones you worry about, 163 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 4: because otherwise usually lose sleep. And in my retirement, I 164 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 4: refuse to lose sleep. That doesn't happen anymore. Yes, So 165 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 4: I look at this and try to put it in 166 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 4: a broader context and say you know, we have the 167 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 4: tragic loss of life of a person out there, which 168 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 4: we should discuss, But there is a broader context about 169 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 4: what you worry about here. 170 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 3: Do you worry about Latin America? I don't. Do you 171 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 3: worry about Greenland? 172 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 4: I hate it, but I'm not try I'd worry about 173 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 4: It's not can affect my life. 174 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 3: I worry about the lack of respect for the rule 175 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 3: of law. 176 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 4: So if you look at someone who's shot in those 177 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 4: circumstances and all the debate about was it right or 178 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 4: was it not right? I don't know. 179 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 3: I've seen some of the video. 180 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 4: The right answer is if an officer discharges a weapon, 181 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 4: there should be an investigation. And furthermore, if an officer 182 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 4: discharges a weapon and someone dies, is why is there 183 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 4: even a question if citizens who were once in government, 184 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 4: for example, the former FBI director or members of Congress 185 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,239 Speaker 4: who are investigated by the defest Department, if they're investigated 186 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 4: for purely political reasons, what. 187 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 3: Does that say about the rule of law? All right 188 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 3: to live three, so live free. 189 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 4: So I look at Minnesota, and I guess I step 190 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 4: back and say, we didn't coach this, but you might 191 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,359 Speaker 4: have put your finger on one of the most significant 192 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 4: things in this whole mail stream of activity that I 193 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 4: will worry about because at leads to questions about whether 194 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 4: the rule of law will live or whether the government 195 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 4: just says I won the election. Therefore, if I if 196 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 4: I think it's okay for Ice to shoot somebody, that's fine. 197 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 4: I think it's okay to investigate the former REPI director, 198 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 4: that's fine. 199 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 3: What if they come after me, Philip Mudd and. 200 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 4: I find out there's an IRS investigation because the President 201 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 4: doesn't like me? 202 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, what do I say? I can't defend against the government. 203 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 4: So rule of law and freedom in America is it 204 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 4: seems a big grandiose But I look at Minnesota and say, man, 205 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 4: are we sure we can still protest? 206 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 3: Are we sure we can still? 207 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: Yeah? 208 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 3: See an investigation if someone is killed, I just don't know. 209 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 3: See it's that is disturbing. 210 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: It is, and honestly, I actually think it's bad politics. 211 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: I think Trump thinks this is good politics that what's 212 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: happening in Minnesota. I don't think he was gunning for 213 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: someone to die. But I think all the tension is 214 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: exactly kind of where he wanted this to get because 215 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: all the things it's a distraction from the economy. It's 216 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: a distraction from the Epstein files, it's a distraction from 217 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: other things. It gets more protesters in the streets, so 218 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: he can justify getting more military and police and ICE. 219 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: Agents into the street, which he wants. 220 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: And it's got Democrats out on TV saying abolish Ice, 221 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: abolish the police. 222 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 2: He thinks that wins for him too. 223 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: I think it's bad politics to just not even investigate this. 224 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: People need a resolution, and they need to feel like 225 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: there's some chain of command here and some checks and balances. 226 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: Just do the investigation, pretend to care for five minutes, 227 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: and let it play out politically. 228 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 3: I think that's true. 229 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 4: Although what I've learned in life, and you don't hear 230 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 4: this much anymore, is the power of four words, which 231 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 4: is I do not know. I used to live, as 232 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 4: you know, near you and suburban Washington, DC, which is 233 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 4: liberal and intellectual. Yeah, it is not a rural It 234 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 4: is not farmland. I live in deep rural Virginia. Now 235 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 4: this is not suburban horse farms. This is cattle farms. 236 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 4: A lot of my heat comes from firewood. Ninety five 237 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 4: percent of what I used to think about does not 238 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 4: penetrate here. I'm not suggesting that people are ingerant, far 239 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 4: from it. I'm suggesting a lot of what we used 240 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 4: to talk about doesn't penetrate here. What does penetrate is 241 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 4: years of whether you like it or not. People out 242 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 4: here perceiving the left cram stuff down their throats. You 243 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 4: know that, you know whether it's transgender, etc. So some 244 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 4: of Minnesota will penetrate, but somebody is, why are all 245 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 4: these people demonstrating what's wrong with throwing out, you know, 246 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 4: illegal immigrants. So as you filter it out here, the 247 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 4: world looks a lot different, and I find a lot 248 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 4: of it very troubling this country as a land of immigrants. 249 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 4: I come from Irish and Italian immigrants. We were viewed 250 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 4: as dirty in the nineteenth century, really dirty. The Chinese 251 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 4: were viewed as dirty one hundred and ten years ago, 252 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 4: and I don't understand people who now view immigrants as dirty. 253 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 4: But all I'm saying is I'm not sure that America 254 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 4: was as focused on what I thought was important. Now 255 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 4: that I live in rural America. 256 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 3: It just doesn't. 257 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 4: They got other stuff to do, and a lot of 258 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 4: what the president says, they don't focus on his personality, 259 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 4: which I think is at bord. 260 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, they say stuff like, well, of course et Le 261 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 3: Limerigrid should go. 262 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: Of course, yes, and listen, we've talked about this a 263 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: lot too. And Trump Trump Trump won because he addressed 264 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: very real problems, right, and Democrats lost because they didn't. 265 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: Democrats lost because they said, the economy is great, there's 266 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: no migrant crisis, and crime is down. See look at 267 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: leak at these numbers and people across the country. I 268 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: talked to many of them, knew better, knew better. And 269 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: Trump was saying, yeah, I know those problems were real. 270 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: I will address them now. That said, he is not 271 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: addressing them in the way. Is that a lot of 272 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: people thought he would or want him to. And we're 273 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: getting a lot of other shit along with the quote 274 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:57,119 Speaker 1: unquote addressing of these problems. Right, you can address about economy. 275 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: I don't think tariffs were the right way to do it. 276 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: To address the border, close it absolutely. I'm even okay 277 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: with deporting illegal immigrants. But now you're rounding up who 278 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: knows who for who knows what reason, No due process, 279 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: no explanation. They're disappearing people. Some people are getting hurt 280 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: and killed. None of this is happening in a cohesive, competent, transparent. 281 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: Way, and it's I think it's. 282 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: Just making people very obviously, it's making people angry, and 283 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: it's making people afraid. And if it's not penetrating to 284 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: you know, the rural heartland, I get that, but it 285 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: could give it a minute. 286 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 3: Oh I let me. Let me give you a different perspective. 287 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 4: I think the president I have to separate out character 288 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 4: with policy. 289 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,239 Speaker 3: I look at policy and say, initially I thought. 290 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 4: The Nicaragua adventure was weird, and now I'm thinking, well, 291 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 4: that's because I thought this was about regime change. 292 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 3: Is it just that it's a lot easier to hand 293 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 3: apartment in Venezuela. I'm talking about that. 294 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, just to be sure. 295 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 4: That's about that's not about if you're dealing with regime change. 296 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 4: In my history, if you're looking at a country of 297 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 4: that size, of that sophistication, it's hard to get out 298 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 4: in front of the population. If you look at what happened, 299 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 4: for a example, in an Afghanistan, we might have been 300 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 4: out in front of the population the same holdstream in 301 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 4: some respects fifteen to twenty years agoing to rock. But 302 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 4: I think what the president is doing in terms of 303 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 4: America first. In that case, it's just about oil or 304 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 4: Greenland or making NATO pay. 305 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 3: It's fair share. 306 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 4: I think people might support immigration obviously in some respects 307 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 4: if you look at the Southern War has been a positive. 308 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 4: The character issue is a different story. Flipping the bird 309 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 4: when you're visiting Detroit. The language he uses about political opposition, 310 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 4: the attacks on the judiciary, the use of things like 311 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 4: the Department of Justice to go after American citizens. So 312 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 4: I look at what he's doing policy wise and say, 313 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 4: if you strip out character, yep, you get maybe Marco 314 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 4: Rubio and the vice president, and that might survive the 315 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,239 Speaker 4: president if the character issues disappear. So I kind of 316 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 4: think the president might be proving that some of these 317 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 4: one eighties, in terms of how the America thinks on 318 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 4: things like immigration, they might live on as long as 319 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 4: they're captured in a personality that doesn't have his fundamental flaws. 320 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 2: Yes, But and I hear you, but JD. 321 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: Vance, for example, we don't hear that much publicly from Marco, 322 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: which is probably smart of him, But we hear a 323 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: lot from JD. Vance And he's like cosplaying Trump, like 324 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: he's talking talking like Trump, and he's defiant and it seems. 325 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 2: To be tricky. I mean it is. 326 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: It's trickling down through even the legislature. This cruelty being 327 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: the point, and this performative cruelty has trickled down, And 328 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: so I think people have a hard time compartmentalizing and saying, well, 329 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 1: let's just take the character issues away from Trump and 330 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: maybe we can pretend, you know, the rest of it's okay. 331 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true. I worry very much 332 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: about NATO. You brought this up. I can't believe I'm 333 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: saying this, but German, Sweden, Canadian and Dutch troops are 334 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: all in Greenland now to protect it from US. 335 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: Phil. 336 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 1: That is wild, and I don't know how do you 337 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: make sense of that. 338 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 4: I look at this and say, boy, if you can't 339 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 4: learn from history, you will repeat it. Think of just 340 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 4: in my lifetime some of the major events that I witnessed, 341 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 4: one of which was obviously I was deput Director of 342 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 4: counter Terrorism in two thousand and three to oh five, 343 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 4: and I was there before that. 344 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 3: I was at the White House on nine to eleven. 345 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 4: The coalition that we had in Afghanistan was quite broad, 346 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 4: and it wasn't just political. A lot of people lost 347 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 4: their lives there, from Western European NATO countries and. 348 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 3: From elsewhere around the world. 349 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 4: There was also a different kind of coalition in Iraq, 350 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 4: including from during the First Golf War or we had 351 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 4: a lot of support, regional support, for example. I don't 352 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 4: know what's going to happen in the next twenty years, 353 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 4: but my lifetime at the age of sixty four doesn't 354 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 4: seem that long. And there's going to be repeated incidents 355 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 4: in every American's lifetime where they have to look and say, who's. 356 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 3: With us, who will support us? 357 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 4: If there are a catastrophic event in this country tomorrow 358 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 4: and I were in France or Germany, I don't know 359 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 4: what i'd say. 360 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 3: I say, what if Putin keeps moving, I don't know 361 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 3: what I'd say. Would I say, I'd be happy to 362 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 3: deploy truth for you. So Greenland, you know it's fifty 363 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 3: something thousand people. 364 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 4: If we really want to move in, I can't be 365 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 4: shocked much more in my life, but I would be stunned. 366 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 3: But if we do, it's not just about Greenland. 367 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 4: That doesn't affect the security of American which is really 368 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 4: how does a family get affected? It affects what might 369 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 4: happen in ten years when we say, will you help 370 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 4: us in the answers. 371 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: No, Well, I think I think with Western Europe is 372 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: already answering that question. 373 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 2: Germany has troops. 374 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: Asking along the border because they're worried about Russia and 375 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 1: they're worried. 376 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 2: We won't defend them because we have not been. 377 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: You know, I think in some people's minds, adequately defending 378 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: Ukraine so and sending troops into Greenland, I think is 379 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: another that question has been asked to answer. 380 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 2: It by a lot of Western Europe. We are not. 381 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 2: We might be the enemy now, which is crazy. 382 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 4: It is crazy, and it's not just a political enemy. 383 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 4: It's again, put this in context. If you look at 384 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 4: what's happening in Greenland, and that to me is an 385 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 4: autocracy to America without much of a Congress paying attention, 386 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 4: saying we're simply going to redraw lines. 387 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 3: That's how autocrats act. 388 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 4: But if you go back to the first administration, some 389 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 4: of the contacts that the president had with countries like Turkey, 390 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 4: the Philippines, Russia, and China, the answer was, we are 391 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 4: not the force for freedom anymore. 392 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 3: And that's not even our primary voice. 393 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 4: Our voices we like people who can impose their will 394 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 4: without much of a democratic opposition, and that has been 395 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 4: consistent over time. So the President has said in his 396 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 4: New York Times interview the other day, there is no 397 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 4: real international law. It's the morals that I believe that 398 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 4: I should live by, whatever those are. 399 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 2: That's scary, man, because there is scary if. 400 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 4: You look at the biggest success of this country that 401 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 4: I recommend I remember from history, it's World War Two 402 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 4: in the reconstruction after World War Two, which is America 403 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 4: saying we believe in freedom in Western Europe and will 404 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 4: pay for it. 405 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 3: And it doesn't really affect an American family. 406 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 4: I mean theoretically it does, but we're doing it as 407 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 4: a force for good or what George Bush, which was 408 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 4: a huge investment in age prevention Africa, right, not about 409 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 4: American security the way we would write about it, but Pete, 410 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 4: that is an underwritten story. 411 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 2: What he did, oh totally. 412 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 3: In Africa with AIDS unbelievable. 413 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 4: And now our answer is we believe in autocracy, and 414 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 4: we believe in and redrawing. International boarders and imperialists say 415 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 4: this country believes in freedom. 416 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, And I mean I've heard, we've 417 00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:58,239 Speaker 1: talked about this too. 418 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 2: I've heard people describe this as like. 419 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: Again like Monroe Doctrine, manifest destiny. 420 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 2: We deserve it. 421 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: And you know, we do have international law, but it's 422 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: held together almost by an honor code, right, Like if 423 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: we just decide to ignore it, I guess Trump can 424 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: do that. But we do have international law, we do 425 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: have Geneva Convention, we do have a constitution, we do 426 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: have a Congress. The fact that Trump doesn't care about 427 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: any of those checks and balances really shouldn't matter. 428 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 2: But it's it's seeming to he is testing the fences. 429 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 3: He is and one of them. You know this better 430 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 3: than I. 431 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 4: One of the things I witness in Washington is a 432 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 4: politicians pay attention to polls. 433 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 2: Yeah. 434 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 3: Yes. 435 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 4: One of the really interesting statistics that I look at 436 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 4: over time is to change in tenure of senators in 437 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 4: Congress people over the past couple of years. These are 438 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 4: no longer citizen politicians. They are politician citizens. Well, I 439 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 4: just look at at numbers. Yeah, they are in I 440 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 4: didn't used to believe in term limits. 441 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 3: I do now. 442 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 4: They are not people who grew up in business. Mitt 443 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 4: Romney grew up in business and became a politician. He 444 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 4: would have been a great president, by the way, because 445 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 4: I thought he was very balanced. But my point is 446 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 4: they are looking at polls and deciding when is this 447 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 4: going to go south. 448 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 3: Some of that is happening a little bit. 449 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 4: I think you've seen a few people speak out in 450 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 4: the past few months. But if those polls start to shift. 451 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 4: I'm not much of a believer in Congress. I really 452 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 4: have lost faith, But I will gain faith if they 453 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 4: start to see polls it says, say, I might lose 454 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 4: because I don't know what job Lindsey Graham is going 455 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 4: to go back to you, I know what he's ever 456 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 4: done as politicians. 457 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 2: Right. 458 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: It's so true, and I've lamented this for a long 459 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: time too, that the public service, part of public service 460 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 1: has really been lost on a lot of people. You 461 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: weren't meant to do this for life. You were meant 462 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: to work in the world, Come and do this for 463 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: a little bit and then return back to the private sector. 464 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: And you're right, that's just not happening anymore. And people 465 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: are doing things based on what we'll get them re 466 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: elected and what will keep them keep them in power. 467 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: And that's terribly deleterious for for civics. 468 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 4: And also, let me be ages. Some of these people 469 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 4: are just too old. 470 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 1: Yeah you said it, I'll say it too. They are 471 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: too I am old. They're too old. Yeah. 472 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 2: Okay. 473 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: So before I let you go, and thank you for 474 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: for for breaking some of that down for us. Before 475 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: I let you go, I like to ask each guest 476 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: three questions of varying degrees of seriousness. It's called the 477 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: exit poll. The first question is what is your favorite movie? 478 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: I usually say about politics, but since you're from slightly 479 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: different space, I'll say, what's your favorite movie about terrorism 480 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 1: or national security? 481 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 3: I tell you I don't. I don't. I watch and 482 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 3: read very little oh about terrorism? 483 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 4: Uh. I did a documentary years ago about a family 484 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 4: that we prosecuted it at the FBI. 485 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 3: Assume it's still available on Amazon or Netflix or whatever. 486 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 3: What's man. 487 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 4: It was intense. I'm met one of one of the 488 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 4: families that we prosecute, the family of one of the 489 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 4: young men we prosecuted when I was at the FBI, 490 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 4: and it was if you want to understand the friction 491 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 4: between an American family whose son was prosecuted in the FEDS. 492 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 3: They came to my house. It was intense, but what 493 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 3: was that all? Think about that? Dan Jacket? Dany Jack 494 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 3: was pretty good. I should remember. I think it was 495 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 3: called Homeland. I'm not sure. 496 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: Okay, David Jack, I wonder if you've seen Dana Jack. 497 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 2: Have you seen have you seen the movie Breach? 498 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 4: No? 499 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 3: Never heard of it. 500 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 2: Oh, it's great. Okay. Have you seen some of All Fears? 501 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 4: No? 502 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 3: I don't see very much. I'm watching Friends now. 503 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 2: Does that count? What about Three Days of the Condor? 504 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 4: I've never seen it. I just finished watching Modern Family? 505 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 4: Does that count? By the way, For the listeners, For 506 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 4: people who want to read about the SPI minutes, you 507 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 4: should read Steve Cole's very good, Cool. 508 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 3: He's a great writer. 509 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 4: He's written about the CIA and covered action in the past. 510 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 4: Really great writer. And Ben McIntyre. I forget if it's 511 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 4: The Spy and the Trader or The Trader and the Spy. 512 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 3: Ben McIntyre's book all his books, but that book. 513 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 4: Is really good. I knew one or two of the participants. 514 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 4: It is a novel that is not a novel. You 515 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 4: know what's going to happen and you still can't put 516 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 4: it down. Ben McIntyre is a great read. 517 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 2: Great love these recos terrific. 518 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: Second question, who's someone on the left and the right 519 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: that you admire on issues of national security? 520 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 3: I mentioned Mitt Romney. Yeah, I think he's very thoughtful. 521 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 2: Yep, me too. 522 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 3: I Oh, second, Defense Gates. 523 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 2: What'd you say? 524 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, Bob Gates. I thought Bob Gates was very very 525 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 4: That's a guy. He's not in the public guy very much, 526 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 4: but man, he was very That is a smart guy. 527 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 4: Colin Powe used to be very not I talked to 528 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 4: him a few times at CIA, and those were not 529 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 4: pleasant conversations because they had they involved CIA black sites 530 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 4: at some points. 531 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 3: But yeah, nonetheless, that guy is worth listening to. Kandy 532 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 3: Rice is very smart. 533 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 2: Yep. 534 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 3: I always thought she was worth listening to. So there's 535 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 3: there's a couple thoughts of people. 536 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: We had a couple of NATSEK moms just win elections 537 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: in Virginia and New Jersey and Michael Mikey Cheryl and 538 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: Abby Spamberger and along with Alyssa Slockin, those are three 539 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: democratic NATSEK moms who I think make a lot of sise. 540 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 3: I don't know, Yeah, I don't, I don't know. Spamberger 541 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 3: and Slotkin. 542 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 4: I think I've met Alyssa there a little behind me, 543 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 4: but I know people who know them, and I've watched it, especially. 544 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 3: Since I'm here in Virginia. I watched a campaign. Yeah, 545 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 3: stand back, they are very talented. 546 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 4: A Slopkin is one of those examples we're talking about earlier, 547 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 4: where the government is using its power to go after 548 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 4: his citizen. She's on a video that says, you know 549 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 4: you have the right to resist an unlawful order. I mean, duh, 550 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 4: you know that just restatement of the law, and you 551 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 4: use federal power. I think people don't understand. You know, 552 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 4: the President came after me years ago in a tweet 553 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 4: by name. Do you know what that does to a 554 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 4: private citizen in terms of safety and security? 555 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 2: Unfortunately I do. 556 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is really I'm like he said I was deranged, 557 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 3: which is possibly true, but don't write it. 558 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I got a lot. 559 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 4: Yeah it is. 560 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 3: You know, it's one of these people. 561 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 4: I did have one guy prosecuted for a death threat 562 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 4: and he pled guilty to felony. I mean, president doesn't care. 563 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 4: I'm a citizen. I do pay a ship ton of taxes. 564 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: Please leave me alone, I know, I know. 565 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 3: And Lissa's lock and alone. 566 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: I know, And well what I like about Alyssa is 567 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: in a saying don't follow illegal orders. She's also out 568 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: there saying we cannot abolish ice. That's that's lunacy. We 569 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: need law enforcement. Yeah, so she's really like to me, 570 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: she says all the right things. 571 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 4: Yes, a little more centrism in this country to me, 572 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 4: and a little less fringe would be a good thing. 573 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 4: I mentioned that Bromnie George H. W. Bush I thought 574 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 4: was right. Now Ronald Reagan would be viewed. I think 575 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 4: it's pretty much a centrist in many respects, especially the 576 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 4: way I'm talking about centrism, including the way you engage 577 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 4: in social circumstances. He's a very polite man. Yeah, never 578 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 4: would have said anything. Some of the language used today 579 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 4: is a language you here in a bar, maybe maybe 580 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 4: maybe flip the bird at something, and you're the president 581 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 4: and the White House says that's an appropriate gesture. 582 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 3: So maybe I should tell that to a seven year 583 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 3: old that's what you do. Yeah, a little. 584 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 4: And Ted Cruz give me a break. Anyway, what's the 585 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 4: third question I'm ranting here. I'm starting to get excited. 586 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 3: Don't let that. 587 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: No, I was just gonna say, I also miss John McCain. 588 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: You know I missed John McCain a lot. 589 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 4: Uh. 590 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 2: The last question is how do we save our democracy? 591 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 3: Film mud a couple of things. You've got to vote. 592 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 4: You've got to vote, and uh, I would say, in 593 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 4: a nonpartisan way, vote for centrists. Enough with the fringes 594 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 4: on the left and the right and the other thing 595 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 4: I would pay attention to. 596 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 3: And is watch out for the judiciary. 597 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 4: If you look at the pieces of government that have 598 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 4: worked well and that are respected by the people, the 599 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 4: executive isn't respected, the legislator, legislature isn't respected. The jujiticiary 600 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 4: used to have sky high numbers. They do not anymore. 601 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 3: They're the last bastion, you know, nonpartisan respect. Yep, be careful. 602 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 2: Well, I was hoping you were going to calm us down, Phil, 603 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 2: But that's okay. 604 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 4: I will assure if you live in the Shenandoah Valley, 605 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 4: if you live in the Shenandoah Valley, just go to 606 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 4: a vineyard. 607 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 3: You'll find me. Buy a glass and we can. We can. 608 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 3: I don't I won't pay for it. 609 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 2: Watch talk about friends and national and modern family. I 610 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 2: love it. Uh, thanks so much for joining me. I 611 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 2: always love talking to you. 612 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: And enjoy enjoy that fresh Virginia country air. 613 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me. 614 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: That was fun and we'll see you next week with 615 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: what I'm sure will be another. 616 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 2: Newsy week in politics. 617 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as 618 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: part of the Reason Choice Network. 619 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 2: If you want more, check out the. 620 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: Other Reason Choice podcasts, Politics with Jamel Hill and Native 621 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: Land pod. 622 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 2: For Off the Cup, I'm your host, Si Cup. Editing 623 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 2: and sound design by Derek Clements. 624 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are me Si Coup, Lauren Hanson, and 625 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: Lindsay Hoffman. 626 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 2: Rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. 627 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: Follow or subscribe for new episodes every Wednesday.