1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly john Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: today's best minds, and a Reuter's IPSOS poll found that 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: sixty eight percent of Americans do not believe Donald Trump's 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: State of the Union claim that the US economy is booming. 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: We have such a great show for you today, the 7 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: Atlantics and Applebaum stops by to talk about Trump's attempts 8 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: to tell the American people up is down and down 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: is up. Then we'll talk to the New Republics. Mike 10 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: tamask you about what Democrats should be doing to continue 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: to highlight Trump's ties to Epstein. But first the news. 12 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 2: Smiling, I would say, Mike Johnson's majority is hanging by 13 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 2: a thread. But a thread might be a little much 14 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 2: of an exaggeration. Right now, so we have Tony Gonzalez 15 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: who is facing a world of fuckery with his accusations. 16 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: His district office staffer set herself on fire after he 17 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: harassed her and had an affair with texted her. 18 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 2: Truly things that I did not know adults text. Well, 19 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 2: maybe I knew adults text each other, but it really 20 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 2: was unbecoming anyway. So now we have learned that in 21 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 2: a room full of GOP donors at a party retreat 22 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 2: that Florida Repneil Done has a terminal diagnosis, but is 23 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: going to try to stay in office and make it 24 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 2: to his term send. 25 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: The end of his term, which means he would need 26 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: to make it until and if he doesn't. Republicans have 27 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: a one seat majority right now, so there's a world 28 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: in which they lose the House before even the election. 29 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: I think it's unlikely, but it's certainly possible. 30 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it just seems you know, we saw, we 31 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 2: discussed Mitch McConnell last week having a senior moment and 32 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 2: then taking a fall, and it just seems real, real 33 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 2: grim over in those parts. For these days, they really 34 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 2: are hanging on bio very little. 35 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, Mitch mcconnald's in the Senate, but certainly 36 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: there are very old people in the House. Unfortunately, there 37 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: are also very old people in the House on the 38 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: Democratic side. And by the way, in order for Mike 39 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: Johnson to win things, he needs all the votes in 40 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: order to pass things, So they really have a numbers 41 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 1: problem in the House for Republicans, and it means they're 42 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: not going to be able to pass other stuff. And 43 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: remember this very scary Save Act, which is this act 44 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: which would make it so that if you're a woman 45 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: who changed your name when you got married, you basically 46 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: can't vote. The only way to pass that is with 47 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: sixty votes, and they don't have it. They would need 48 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: to get Democrats or they would need to block the filibuster, 49 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: which seems very unlikely. 50 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 51 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: Okay, so today Bill Clinton testified just as Hillary did yesterday, 52 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 2: and seemed like they got to see the same Hillary 53 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 2: we saw when she did testimony. 54 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 3: On Big Gazi. 55 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: But now Jamie Roskins says, it's let Nick time, baby. 56 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, here's the story about that. And again I think 57 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: it's important to remember James Comer, who's the head of 58 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: the Oversight Committee, is not very smart. You know, he 59 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: thinks that he's doing himself some brilliant churn here having 60 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,679 Speaker 1: Bill and Hillary speak. Conservatives are obsessed with the Clintons, 61 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: but realistically, I don't think that normal people care. Right, Like, 62 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: she's not running for president, he's not running for president. 63 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: That dynasty is over, so I don't know, Like I 64 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: understand that it's fun for them, and I understand that 65 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: there's like a contingent of people who really hate them, 66 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: but they don't have a lot to do with the 67 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: Democratic Party at large. What Comer fails to understand is 68 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: that he's setting a new president here. So if you 69 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: can have Bill Clinton testify, that means remember, so much 70 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: of DC is about norms and not laws, right Like, 71 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: you don't go after former presidents in this way. You 72 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: don't have them in congressional hearings because these are norms, 73 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: but it's not against the law. You've had Bill and Hillary, 74 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: and that means that you can have Trump, you can 75 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: have Don Junior, you can have all the kids, you 76 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: can have Malania, you can have the whole kit in 77 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: kaboodle because you've set a president, which says, you know, 78 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: Milania is more implicated in the Epstein files. There's that 79 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: nice email, this very friendly email she writes to Golane. 80 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: You know Hillary doesn't have that. I mean, I do think, 81 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: by the way, that if Hillary and Bill are culpable 82 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: in any way that for sure they should be held responsible. 83 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: And if they're in if it's found that the money 84 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: that Gilaine gave them was involved in starting the Clinton 85 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: Global Initiative, that probably should go. So I'm not in 86 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: any way signing off on their involvement here. I'm just 87 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: saying it sets a precedent like Lutnik, LATINX wife, LATINOX 88 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: kids like you have opened the door to a lot 89 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: of oversight that I don't think Republicans necessarily. 90 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 2: Want, Yes, especially after that picture of Howard look they 91 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 2: looking like a Backstreet Boys video on Epstein Island. But 92 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 2: we do see that Trump said that what Nick is 93 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 2: a very innocent guy, and Maxwell Frost has a reply 94 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: of that, which is that he is a certain many 95 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 2: times that he knew nothing of Epstein's crimes. How can 96 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: you know for sure what Nick's a very innocent guy? 97 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: Yes, and even before that, Trump said I've been fully exonerated. 98 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: That's his favorite thing to say. He says, I've been 99 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: fully exonerated. Lutinx very innocent. Meanwhile, the DOJ pulled a 100 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: picture of Lutnik and his kids off the Ebstein files site, 101 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: which is not something you do when you're very innocent, 102 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: or maybe it is. I mean, that's the thing, is 103 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: like the cover up is becoming bigger than the crimes, 104 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: and so it's just the fact that they're behaving in 105 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: a way that seems very very very guilty. Strikes me 106 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: as a pretty good sign that there's where there's smoke, 107 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: there's fire. 108 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 3: Agreed. 109 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: So the Democrats are demanding seventeen hundred dollars tariff ree 110 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 2: funds for Americans. 111 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not the only ones. And there are a 112 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: lot of companies, like hundreds of companies suing this administration. 113 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 3: Now for tariffs. 114 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: And I'm not sure Trump understood that this is coming, 115 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: but the Supreme Court now said they are illegal, and 116 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: now that means that if they're illegal, that means that 117 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: you can get that money back. This is all like 118 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: this thing that Trump does with the unintended consequences, which 119 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: is like puts these tariffs down. The Supreme Court says 120 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: they're illegal, that means that money has to go back 121 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: to people. So, by the way, it's important to remember 122 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: like Trump has fired huge swaths of the federal government, 123 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: so now you have less people working on more stuff, 124 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: and he's constantly making more and more stuff for people 125 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: to do. I think that it's just you know, we 126 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: saw Pritzker out of the gate being like you owe 127 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: each Illinois resident seventeen hundred bucks or whatever. This is 128 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: a good thing for Democrats to run on because it's 129 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: so stupid. Here's Trump doing stupid crap, and Democrats have 130 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: an opportunity, you know, they can just say it's making 131 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: life more expensive for but which by the way, you know, 132 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: I just want to go back to Trump's State of 133 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: the Union on Tuesday. There are these dials that people 134 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: turn to measure sentiment. You know, they have a group 135 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: of watchers, and it tends to be more Republican, at 136 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: least for thirty eight percent more republican right they're watching it, 137 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: And when he would say the Golden Age, the sentiment 138 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: would go down. They didn't like the Golden Age. And 139 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: it's hard for me to think of a phrase that 140 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: Moore invokes trump Ism. And it's just striking to me 141 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: that that is where people were like, no dice, because 142 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: I think historically, if you looked back on that, that 143 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: phrase has done really well for him. And these changes 144 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,239 Speaker 1: happen slowly and then quickly, and we're in the middle 145 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: of watching a big change. 146 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 3: That's a great, great point. So Maya, I will tell you. 147 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: Last night, the news break that Netflix is dropping its 148 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 2: bid for the Warner Brothers deal and Paramount would get it, 149 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: giving the Ellison's control. 150 00:07:58,360 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 3: I've been dying to know what you think. 151 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: But I think it's very interesting that Rob Bunta, the 152 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 2: attorney general we've had on from California before. 153 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: Is the frequent guest of the show. 154 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 3: Yes, it's saying that's so fast their chief. 155 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, look, it would be malpractice for Democrats 156 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: not to be all over this. There are a couple 157 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: of things that I think it's worth just pointing out 158 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: about this. First of all, this deal is really expensive. 159 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: The reason that Netflix dropped out of it may have 160 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: been because Trump, you gave them a hard time, but 161 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: it's also because it's really expensive and they see that 162 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: the Elesons are over paying here. Now, it's also important 163 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: to realize, like Netflix wasn't even going to buy CNN, 164 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: and there CNN has gotten really small. And I know 165 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: that there are a lot of people who think CNN 166 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: is really important, and I understand that, and I don't disagree. Look, 167 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: I am a work for MSNBC. I get it. But 168 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: I just think there would have been a cheaper way 169 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: to get CNN, which would have been to let Netflix 170 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: buy this and then spin out CNN and buy it 171 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: that way. And the fact that they're doing it in 172 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: this wildly expensive way when Larry ellison stock itself is down. 173 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: And I know he's very, very very rich, and he can, 174 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: you know, just like Elon he can you know, throw 175 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: the balls in the air and service the debt. But 176 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: if you look at this deal, it has a huge 177 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: amount of debt, like crazy levels of debt. And maybe 178 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, maybe David Ellison is very very smart. There's 179 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: not a lot of evidence to support that, FYI. And 180 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: also last year he was just like running a studio 181 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: no one had ever heard of. So I just think 182 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: Larry has done this before with his kids. He did 183 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: this with his daughter. It was a disaster. I'm not 184 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: convinced that this ends well. That said, there's also just 185 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 1: a ton of regulatory hurdles that can be put up here, 186 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: and they should be because it's a monopoly and there's 187 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: antitrust stuff here up the wazoo. Right, you'll own all 188 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: these news networks, they'll own you know, whatever, two studios. 189 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: They'll be a huge amount of jobs lost. Democrats should 190 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: put regulatory hurdles in their states, should sue the California 191 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: AG has some jurisdiction. And then the other thing is 192 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: that I think that this is going to take a 193 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: long time. So Trump may not be the free wheeling autocrat. 194 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: You know, if the midterms happen the way they're supposed 195 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 1: to happen, Trump may not have the kind of power 196 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: and control he has right now, and so this may 197 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: all not go through. So again, who knows. But I 198 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: wouldn't say it's I don't think that people should treat 199 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: this like the end of the world. I think it's bad, 200 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: and it's certainly not good, but I also think there 201 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: are there are reasons that may work against it. 202 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's very interesting that you know, 203 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:44,559 Speaker 2: everybody's saying they're going to take it, see it that 204 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 2: to make it Fox News. It's like, there's not a 205 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 2: market for this. There's a reason these networks sort of 206 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: have it. If the Ellisons try to do that, they're 207 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 2: going to lose a lot of money. 208 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, they're doing it with CBS and they 209 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: don't seem to care. So I'm not convinced that they 210 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: won't do that. I think they might try to do that, 211 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: but I think that like when you see with CBS, 212 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: like they've done that and they're down twenty five percent, 213 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: So you don't have a captive audience and even TikTok 214 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: isn't TitTat down people using TikTok. 215 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 3: Yes, that is correct. 216 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: They won't obviously publicly say what the numbers are, but 217 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 2: it seems very obvious that they lost a million viewers. 218 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, so, I mean that's the thing. It's like, you 219 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: can't necessarily like my Space was a thing until it wasn't. 220 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: And you know, you have certain like with x there's 221 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: a certain amount of stickiness despite the fact that the 222 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: algorithm has been so juiced to be conservative and elevate 223 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: Elon Musk. But a lot of these sites don't necessarily 224 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: have that kind of stickiness. I just am not convinced 225 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: that these are. I don't know, We'll see what happens. 226 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: I mean this anything could happen here. I do think 227 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: I was a little bit wrong about Twitter, Like I 228 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: thought he would just kill it, and instead he's sort 229 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: of it's you know, because people are still on there, 230 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: because politicians are still on there. It has a way. 231 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: We have exciting news over at our YouTube channel. The 232 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: third episode is out now from our series Project twenty 233 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: twenty nine, are reimagining, where we examine what went wrong 234 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: with democrats approach to policy and how we can correct 235 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: it and deliver changes for the American people. The first 236 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: episodes dove into campaign finance, reform, antitrust, and regulation. Our 237 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: newest episode is on how we solidify reproductive rights for women. 238 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: We talk to the smartest names in the field, like 239 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: Abortion every Day is Jessica Valenti, The Center for Reproductive Rights, 240 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: Nancy Northok UCLA is own Mary Ziegler, and the gout 241 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: Macher Institute's Kelly Badden. Republicans were prepared for when they 242 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: got the levers of power. Democrats need to be too. 243 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: So please head over to YouTube and search Molly John 244 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: Fast Project twenty twenty nine or go to the Fast 245 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: Politics YouTube channel page and you'll find it there. Help 246 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: us spread the word. And Applebaum is a writer at 247 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: the Atlantic and the author of Autocracy, Inc. The Dictators 248 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: who Want to run the World. 249 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 4: Welcome, Welcome, and Applebaum Greetings. 250 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: I want you to talk about where Europe is in 251 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: this moment, because I don't think Americans quite understand what 252 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: it is happening across the Atlantic. 253 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 4: It's a great question because a lot is happening across 254 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 4: the Atlantic, and no, Americans don't understand it. So you're 255 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 4: the premise of your question is correct. Look, I think 256 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 4: that what happened in the last six weeks to not 257 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 4: all Europeans, but certainly northern Europeans was pretty extreme. So 258 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 4: remember what happened in January. The Danish government came to believe, 259 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 4: both because of things Trump said in public and because 260 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 4: of other information that they had, that an actual invasion 261 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 4: of Greenland might be imminent. This is their territory, those 262 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 4: are Danish citizens. They put it in Danish elections, so 263 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 4: they mentally prepared for this. They thought about whether they 264 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 4: would shoot count American planes, They thought about whether they 265 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 4: would shoot American soldiers, would American soldiers shoot badic at them? 266 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 4: What would this do to NATO? What would it do 267 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 4: to the economy? Same conversation went on in most other 268 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 4: European countries. 269 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: I know. 270 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 4: The Germans were particularly freaked out. They were also aware 271 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 4: that America might be about to be at war with 272 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 4: one of their close allies, you know, Denmark, you know, 273 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 4: very integrated into the German economy too, and they went 274 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 4: through this mental exercise, Okay, that's it, we might really 275 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 4: be going to war with America. And then of course 276 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 4: it came to an end. Trump gave a speech at 277 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 4: Davos in which he sort of threw out the idea 278 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 4: and he mixed up Greenland and Iceland three times, and 279 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 4: he rambled on about a lot of other things. But 280 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 4: I don't think people have recovered. So I've just been 281 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 4: to Copenhagen. I was there last week and I met, 282 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 4: you know, one person after another who asked me exactly 283 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 4: the question you just said. Do Americans know what happened? 284 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 4: Do they know how angry that? Or do do they 285 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 4: care that we're angry? And I had to tell them, no, 286 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 4: I don't think Americans know. I'm not sure they care, 287 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 4: and I'm not sure they realized the significance of it. 288 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 4: I was in both Munich. I was the Munich Security Conference, 289 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 4: and then I was in Denmark, and in both places 290 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 4: I heard people talking about how to hedge against America, 291 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 4: how to disconnect from America. You know, how we need 292 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,359 Speaker 4: to deal with European American technology and American defense technology, 293 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 4: and how we need to build something different. And none 294 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 4: of this is going to happen overnight and won't happened quickly, 295 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 4: but a very clear shift has happened. I mean over 296 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 4: the past i'd say two or three months from people saying, well, 297 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 4: you know Trump, we can deal with him. You know, 298 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 4: whatever he has, he has quirks and it's all a 299 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 4: little strange, but we can find a modus operande to 300 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 4: people saying, Okay, this is really serious. This is a 301 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 4: different kind of country to the one that we thought 302 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 4: was our Ally, we can't cope with it anymore. 303 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: There's like a truth question here when it comes to Trump, 304 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: which I think is incredibly disturbing, which is like, it 305 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: does strike me. Remember Iran obviously not people you can 306 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: take to the bank, but they did say that Trump 307 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: had maybe lied about what the war sort of what's 308 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: happening with his wanting to go to war, And I 309 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: wonder if you could talk about that's that seems like 310 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: a very I mean, we have certainly had presidents lie 311 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: about war before, but we've never had it has never 312 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: seemed so possible that Iran might have a point we have. 313 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 4: So first of all, remember that we have also struck 314 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 4: Iran before Trump did it last year, and at the time, 315 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 4: the administration claimed they had destroyed Iran's nuclear program. So 316 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 4: if that was the case, then why are we now 317 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 4: negotiating with Iran about their nuclear program. Why did we 318 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 4: just assemble this massive force in the Middle East supposedly 319 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 4: to deal with Eron's nuclear program? So, I mean, the 320 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 4: lies are on multiple levels. There was lies about the 321 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 4: last engagement. There lies about this engagement. This one seems 322 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 4: likely to happen, maybe again in the next few days. 323 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 4: The administration has given no explanation for it. There is 324 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 4: no clear goal. We don't know what it's for. Is 325 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 4: it regime change, is it nuclear? Is it some other goal. 326 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 4: There's no discussion with the American people. Trump didn't mention it, 327 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 4: didn't talk about the you know at length about a 328 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 4: coming war with Iran, and his State of the Union speech. 329 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 4: The Congress hasn't been told. I saw a quote from 330 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 4: some members of Congress today saying, no one's briefed us. 331 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 4: We don't know what's happening, and we don't know why. 332 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 4: I mean, so there is this There is a massive 333 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 4: amount of American firepower in the Middle East right now, 334 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 4: and we don't know why. And that's very, very peculiar, 335 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 4: and I think completely unprecedented and very different even from 336 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 4: two thousand and three when we did go to a 337 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 4: war in Iraq, but we discussed it in advance. We 338 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 4: talked to allies. We had allies. Actually, as people have 339 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 4: now kind of forgotten, you know, there were a set 340 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 4: of reasons why we were doing it. You know, you 341 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 4: can dispute the reasons or don't dispute them, that they 342 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 4: were presented in a way that was logical. And this 343 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 4: is completely different. So we're we're both in both in 344 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 4: Europe where we almost went to war with Denmark, and 345 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 4: now in the Middle East. We're in just a different 346 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 4: world where American military power is being used without any 347 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 4: explanation or justification that we're aware of. 348 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: We still have the president of Venezuela and his wife 349 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: in a Manhattan detention yep. 350 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 4: And in a way, the weirder thing is that we 351 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 4: have them in a Manhattan in Hesian. But the regime 352 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 4: is still in place. And so this very repressive, very 353 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 4: ugly regime, which was by the end of Maduro's term, 354 00:18:55,240 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 4: had been rendered completely illegitimate. They stole an election a 355 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 4: few some months ago. You know, we haven't changed the regime. 356 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 4: And Trump is saying how marvelous it is to work 357 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 4: with Delsea Rodriguez. This is the woman who's now running it. 358 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 4: And so once again, the purpose of even that is 359 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 4: again strange. I mean, there was an informal justification for 360 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 4: the kidnapping of Maduro, which is that he was being 361 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 4: arrested because he was in violation of US law, and 362 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 4: I think Rubio has said that, you know, on a 363 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 4: couple of occasions. But then Trump will occasionally talk about 364 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 4: Venezuelan to say, it's really great, We're taking all the oil. 365 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 4: And so once again, the purpose of it, the justification 366 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 4: for it is the what is the utility to America 367 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 4: or to Americans or to American foreign policy? That's unclear. 368 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 4: I mean, clearly some US companies will benefit some money 369 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 4: from the Venezuelan oil is said to be going to 370 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 4: an account and cutter. I don't know what happens to 371 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 4: that money. These are almost like Trump's private actions, taken 372 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 4: with us the full force of the strongest military in 373 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 4: the world and really the strongest and most impressive millitary 374 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 4: machine in human history, and it's just what he feels 375 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 4: like doing when he wakes up in the morning, and 376 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 4: it doesn't necessarily have to be part of a strategy. 377 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: It's just wild. I mean, it's also quite scary. I 378 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: wonder if you could talk about because they're so little frost. 379 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: I mean, clearly the American people don't trust it. And 380 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: because Trump has tried has not necessarily tried to sell this, 381 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: do you still think it will happen? And also do 382 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: you think that like that Europe? I mean, I just 383 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: am curious, like you know, sort of your sense of 384 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 1: who are the bad guys here? Like it seems like 385 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: Marco Rubio went in and gave a sort of more 386 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: polite speech at Davos, but it still had the same substance. 387 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 4: So I mean, those are two different questions. Yeah, about trust. 388 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:53,479 Speaker 4: But so the curious thing about the various speeches is 389 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 4: that there were several things said in Munich. I wasn't 390 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 4: at Davos, but I was in Munich, right, and I 391 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 4: heard difference. That's right, and I'm sorry, yeah, it's okay. 392 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 4: I heard different speeches made it by different people. Usually 393 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 4: the message was we want Europe to defend itself. You know, 394 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 4: we're telling Europe now that we're not going to come 395 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 4: to your aid anymore. You know, we're not going to 396 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 4: be you know, we're not supplying conventional weapons to you 397 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 4: and to Ukraine and you have to okay, you know 398 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 4: Europeans have heard that message they got it. They've been 399 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 4: spending massively on the military in the last several years, 400 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 4: actually before Trump. I mean it was really Russia that 401 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 4: made them do it. But simultaneously there is another message, 402 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 4: and the other message is we want Europe to be 403 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 4: run by the kinds of political parties that we like. 404 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 4: Are right parties who use the same kind of radical 405 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 4: language that we use. These are not conservative parties. There's 406 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 4: europe conservatives already right now run Germany, they run Poland 407 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 4: you know, they but they don't want like those kinds 408 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 4: of conservatives. They want radicals. And the radical parties with 409 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 4: they're all a little bit different, but with some with 410 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 4: some exceptions, tend to be pro Russian. They are against 411 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 4: European defense spending, and they are opposed to European unity 412 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 4: and the European unit itself. They want to break it up, 413 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 4: you know, and which I which if that were to happen, 414 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 4: European self defense would become impossible. So we're in a 415 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 4: very weird moment where there's these these different messages going 416 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 4: out and that means that it's not just a question 417 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 4: of one or you know, Trump not being trustworthy or nobody, 418 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 4: you know, it's it's you know, literally, US policy makes 419 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 4: no sense. It's it's illogical, you know. And again, you know, 420 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 4: the Danes as they got ready to defend Greenland, you know, 421 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 4: and prepared their people to fight the United States. You know, 422 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 4: only a few days later, when Trump kind of dismissed 423 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 4: the idea, they were being treated as, oh, well, why 424 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 4: did you take all that so seriously? You know, if 425 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 4: you're the prime minister of a country that might be 426 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 4: fighting the United States and you're forced to take it seriously, 427 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 4: and then you're told not to take it seriously, what 428 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 4: do you conclude in the end? You know, you can't 429 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 4: trust anything, you know, you it's not a question of 430 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 4: whether it's Rubyo or Vans or Trump or anybody else. 431 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 4: I mean, the whole thing is seems incoherent to people, 432 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 4: and they are looking for ways out. I mean, it 433 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 4: is not easy to untangle European and American relations, just 434 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 4: like it's not easy to untangle Canadian and American relations. 435 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 4: These are relationships and ties and contacts built up over 436 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 4: many decades. I think they are the they are the 437 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 4: fundamental basis of American prosperity. You know, the fact that 438 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 4: we had these big markets, you know, we have allies 439 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 4: who treat us like you know, as if we were 440 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 4: you know, we we you know, always to be trusted 441 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 4: and always to be you know, and reliability to be 442 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 4: taken for granted, and all of that is now going 443 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 4: to take a long time to pick apart, and there 444 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 4: will be ups and downs, but the process is beginning. 445 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk about the midterms, because 446 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: they're like looming. I think there's a lot of anxiety. 447 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk about what you're seeing 448 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: and and sort of what. 449 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 4: You think is coming there. So I don't, like, I 450 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 4: don't I can't predict the midterms. I mean, the thing 451 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 4: I would I would watch very closely is the administration's 452 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 4: multiple efforts to manipulate or shape the playing field, or 453 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 4: maybe even something more dramatic. You know, the the effort 454 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 4: to manipulate election is not going to be one thing, 455 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 4: or probably it won't be one thing. It'll be a 456 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 4: lot of little things, and some of them have already happened. 457 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 4: You know, the the pressure from the federal government on 458 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 4: some states to redistrict even out of out of lying 459 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 4: the census, which has never happened before. When you're entering 460 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 4: long tradition in America, both parties do it, you know, 461 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 4: but this is never the the you know, the president 462 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 4: putting pressure on state legislatures to do it. 463 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: Never happened federal government redistrict This really good point. The 464 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: Texas redistricting was completely unprecedented, unprecedented. 465 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 4: You know, your redistricts usually happen after a census and 466 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 4: has any sensus. So that's you know, that's one. But 467 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 4: there's also the Department of Justice has been demanding that states, 468 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 4: some states hand over their voter roles, so there are 469 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 4: lists of voters with voter information on the bogus. I 470 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 4: don't even know what the bogus grounds. Something to do 471 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 4: with immigrants, but immigrants. It is well known and has 472 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 4: been repeatedly shown that illegal immigrants do not vote, like 473 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 4: they don't want to vote, you know, it would be 474 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 4: dangerous for them to vote. There's no evidence that they 475 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 4: vote at all. I mean maybe once or twice, who knows, 476 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 4: somebody did it by accident, but there's no there's no 477 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 4: evidence for it. Nevertheless, they're using this as an excuse 478 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 4: to demand voter roles. There have been a couple incidents 479 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 4: in the last few years I did a podcast myself 480 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 4: about this of people voting and then being subsequently kicked 481 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 4: off voter rolls. This happened in North Carolina. There may 482 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 4: be other efforts to keep certain kinds of people from voting, 483 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 4: you know, to keep categories of people from voting. Trump 484 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 4: has already has talked about eliminating voting machines, voting early voting. 485 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 4: You know, they're they're looking to do what they can 486 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 4: to eliminate voting. And so this I think is going 487 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 4: to be something that is fought at the state level 488 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 4: in almost every state. And I think people who care 489 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 4: about voting and think it's important need to pay attention 490 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 4: to those arguments and have their voices be heard, because 491 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 4: there there will be an effort to do this. And 492 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 4: it's not even it's not it takes. It's not like 493 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 4: conspiratorial to say that they're First of all, they're already 494 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 4: doing it. The second of all, Trump they tried it before, 495 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 4: They've said it before, they've tried it before. They tried 496 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 4: it on you know, in January of twenty twenty one, 497 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 4: so we you know, we know they're going to do it. 498 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 4: And then the only question is can they succeed and 499 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 4: that I don't know. I mean, there are there are 500 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 4: lawsuits going on, there are states who are resisting, there 501 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 4: are there's some pushback in Congress against some legislation that 502 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 4: the Trump administrations I had to pass. You know, we 503 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 4: now have this same act. You know, we now have 504 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 4: the exactly we now have the Supreme Court for the 505 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 4: first time having pushed back on Trump on a really 506 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 4: important policy, this is tariffs. And so maybe you know, 507 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 4: maybe we'll get some you know, some some judgments from 508 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 4: courts you know on this too. But it's a it's 509 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 4: a serious problem. It's not a joke. It will be 510 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 4: the theme I think of the next six months. You know, 511 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 4: we're going to be talking about how will they try 512 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 4: to steal or rig or shape or manipulate the elections, 513 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 4: because that's what people like, That's what autocratic populists do. Ye, 514 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 4: that's what they do when they take power. The way 515 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 4: you end a democracy is by effectively ending people's right 516 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 4: to vote according to whatever rules of the system they have. 517 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 4: And our rules are strange, but there's still our rules, 518 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 4: and you know, you know, we have the right to 519 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 4: we have the right to elect our leaders by them. 520 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it is it's definitely when you look 521 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: at the Save Act, I mean, basically, it's unconstitutional right 522 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: to federalize elections. Our whole thing is that we have 523 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: state the states are responsible for elections. But that doesn't 524 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: mean trump't try No. 525 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 4: I mean the lesson of the last year is it 526 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 4: just because something is legal doesn't mean he won't try it. 527 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, he he does things all the 528 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 4: time that are illegal. I mean are he And He's 529 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 4: asked people to do things that are illegal, and when 530 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 4: you know, when they discover they're illegal, they object and 531 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 4: then they're fired. I mean, that's we have I have. 532 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,719 Speaker 4: That was another thing that featured in one of some 533 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 4: project that I did. So there you know, they know 534 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 4: that and that's their modus OPERANDEA, we know it's legal, 535 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 4: We're going to do it and then let the courts 536 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 4: find us later. 537 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: Yeah. I wonder if you could talk about the propaganda, 538 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: because that is the other thing, and now we're in 539 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: a sort of new, brave, new world of propaganda where 540 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: there are deep fakes, and I mean I feel like 541 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen was the first election where we really had 542 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: this kind of you know, sort of Earth one, Earth 543 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: two phenomenon. And it's only gotten worse. And I'm sure 544 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: the Europeans are a little more sophisticated did about what 545 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: they're seeing, and they have a little more regulation around it. 546 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: But I'm just curious if you could talk talk about 547 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: that from it. 548 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 4: So the way our the way our information space now 549 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 4: works is that we mostly communicate, and mostly, especially younger 550 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 4: people get information about politics from not from journalism of 551 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 4: any kind, like, not right wing journalism, not left wing journalism, 552 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 4: not Fox News, not CNN. They mostly get their information 553 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 4: from TikTok, from YouTube videos, from you know, maybe they 554 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 4: use x maybe they use Facebook, and that's how that's 555 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 4: how people learn about what's going on in the world. 556 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 4: And all of those platforms are one way or another 557 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 4: controlled by algorithms that are not designed to promote information 558 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 4: that's good or i mean, forget about true, you know, 559 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 4: but information that's you know, calm and you know, designed 560 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 4: to you know, make you think or make you join 561 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 4: an argument on all of them are governed by algorithms 562 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 4: that push extremism, that push anger, emotion, you know. The 563 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 4: messages that win on any of these mediums are the 564 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 4: ones that are emotive and strong and angry and often divisive, 565 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 4: and they also the other way that the way these 566 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 4: algorithms work is that they allow people to effectively you 567 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 4: choose your own world to live in. So it's not 568 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 4: just Earth one and Earth two. There's many earths. You know, 569 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 4: the world that you've created because of the things that 570 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 4: you've clicked on, and then you know, then the algorithm 571 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 4: shows you more of that. I mean I actually had 572 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 4: a period last week when all I could see was 573 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 4: ice skating because I watched some of the Olympic ice skating, 574 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 4: and all my algorithms decided I wanted to see more escating, 575 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 4: so I had to try and find a way. 576 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 3: To make it stop. 577 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 4: You know, I admire and loved the ice skating, it 578 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 4: was amazing, But I was gonna say the third thing 579 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 4: is that we also live in a world where we 580 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 4: have the illusion of free speech. Like you write something 581 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 4: on Twitter or you write something on Blue Sky, and 582 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 4: you have the illusion you're saying something and people are 583 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 4: responding to you and you're having a conversation. I mean, 584 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 4: actually who sees the thing that you wrote, whether they're 585 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 4: able to respond to it. All of that is manipulated 586 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 4: by you know, computers in Silicon Valley, basically so that 587 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 4: we aren't having a free speech conversation. It's not governed 588 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 4: by rules that we've all agreed on about who gets 589 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 4: to talk and when and who has heard yea. Instead, 590 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 4: we're we're having a conversation that's run by by them, 591 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 4: and I think the the and they for whatever reasons. 592 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 4: In some cases it's commercial and in some cases it's political. 593 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 4: These platforms have decided that, you know, propaganda works for them. 594 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 4: You know that it travels fast, it gets people to click, 595 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 4: it gets people, you know, it makes people stay online longer. 596 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 4: You know, maybe some of them. I think Musk probably 597 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 4: has a political goal. You know, he wants to convert 598 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 4: more people into his version of radicalism. And see, you know, 599 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 4: all of that has made this world that's ideal for 600 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 4: you know, for the spreading of propagand and of false stories, 601 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 4: you know, false videos. Now that the federal government does it, 602 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 4: the White House does it. The White House has published 603 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 4: doctored photographs of people, The administration puts up kind of 604 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 4: nazi likely on some of its channels. Now that they're 605 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 4: doing it too, it's really normalized it and it's now 606 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 4: available almost everywhere, and you know, I think it's people 607 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 4: often ask me, how do you know what to read 608 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 4: or how do you decide what's true? And all I 609 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 4: can say is, you know, I just based on my experience, 610 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 4: you know, over many decades, I know who's a responsible 611 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 4: journalist who's actually gone the work and you know, gone 612 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 4: to interview people and tried to find things out and 613 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 4: you know, and told the real story, and who doesn't 614 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 4: And and you have to, you know, you have to 615 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 4: you now have to have a personal way of determining 616 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 4: what's true and what's not true, because you know what 617 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 4: you read isn't going to do it for you. 618 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and thank you so much, Thank you, thank you. 619 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 4: You're welcome. Nice to see you again. 620 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: Mike tamask He is editor of The New Republic and 621 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: author of The Middle Out The Rise of Progressive Economics. Welcome, Welcome, 622 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: Mike Demaski. Hi, hi, Hi. I'm so glad to have 623 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: you here because there's so much to talk about. Let's 624 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: start with the weird moment we're in. So we have 625 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: the Epstein story. It is really the rest of the 626 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: world is taking this deadly seriously, which I think is 627 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: such a stark contrast to where we are as a nation. 628 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: We have a Norwegian PM who tried to kill himself. 629 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: We have two members of the British you know, one 630 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: former prince, the other a former ambassador, both being swept 631 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: up by the police. And then we have a Republican 632 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: Party and a Trump cabinet filled with the Epstein class. 633 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: So talk us through what's happening here. 634 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, some of we are taking this seriously in 635 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 5: the United States, a lot of we. But we who 636 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 5: aren't taking it seriously, unfortunately, are the we who have 637 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 5: the power to do something about it. And that we 638 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 5: is you know, the Justice Department and Republicans in Congress, 639 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 5: and you know other conservative commentators. Who's who who the 640 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 5: White House listens to, who might be able to pressure 641 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 5: Pam Bondi to do something right on this. You know, 642 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 5: that's the we that's the problem. You know, the we 643 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 5: that includes you and me and Rocanna and Tom Massey 644 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 5: very much wants to get to the bottom of it. 645 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 5: But there's another we that's that's blocking it. And so 646 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 5: I'm fascinated to see where this is going to go 647 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 5: with this revelation, this story that NPR broke Thursday, and 648 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 5: these missing missing documents, the missing documents that have to 649 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 5: do with this poor girl who's thirteen at the time, 650 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 5: and you know what she had to say. I don't 651 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 5: want to speculate her responsibly, but there could be a 652 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 5: story there. Let's just put it that way. 653 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: Yes, Usually, when the DOJ withholds huge chunks of three 654 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 1: yo two's of interviews, when the DOJ holds large chunks 655 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: of evidence from what is supposed to be a massive 656 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: file dump that is supposed to include everything, it certainly 657 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: looks like they're trying to keep the public from reading 658 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: certain things. I want to talk about me too and 659 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: accountability because I have been working on something and reading 660 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: all of the sort of you know what happened in 661 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, And one of the things that happens with 662 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: a cultural moment like that, with a sort of sea change, 663 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: is that society sort of makes a contract, that the 664 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,399 Speaker 1: contract sort of changes. And I wonder if you could 665 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,320 Speaker 1: talk about the influence that having someone with so many 666 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: allegations of sexual misconduct mean for the American social contract. 667 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 5: It has corrupted and corroded the American social contract and 668 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 5: taken us backwards in a lot of ways. I mean, okay, 669 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 5: with me too, things did seem to change. We seemed 670 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 5: to agree. We again I say this we although it's 671 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,399 Speaker 5: a very phantom concept this week, but you know, more 672 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 5: or less, society seemed to agree that women had not 673 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 5: been taken seriously for a long time or ever when 674 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 5: they lodged these allegations, which it generally takes a tremendous 675 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 5: amount of courage to go public with or even to tell, 676 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 5: you know, tell a superior at work. And so society's 677 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 5: view changed that, you know, we were going to take 678 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 5: these things more seriously and default on the side of 679 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 5: believing women and maybe not, you know, and then there 680 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 5: was some going overboard. So there was a little correction 681 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 5: that said, Okay, you know, let's not believe everything that's 682 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 5: said about every man, because people do deserve the presumption 683 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 5: of innocence here in the United States. But let's presume 684 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 5: that these aren't just made up crazy things, and that 685 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 5: this is a problem that society needs to take seriously 686 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 5: and deal with. You know, I think a lot of 687 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 5: us in that we are still in that place. But 688 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 5: when you have a phenomenon like the Epstein phenomenon, and 689 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,879 Speaker 5: when the President of the United States has how many 690 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 5: thirty credible allegations surrounding him, and when a whole media 691 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 5: apparatus is dedicated to the proposition of defending him no 692 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 5: matter what the allegation is, then society's bound to take 693 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 5: a pretty big step backwards. 694 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: I think one of the things I think about is Lutnek, 695 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: because Lutnik is such a good example of someone who 696 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: didn't have any government experience. There are all sorts of 697 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 1: questions about what his past business acumen was. He then 698 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:44,479 Speaker 1: elevated by Trump lies about his relationship with Epstein. Now 699 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: we see CBS reported that he did business with Epstein. 700 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: There's certainly an LLC that he signed with Epstein. You know, 701 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: there was a lot of lies and a lot of obfuscation. 702 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: So Trump clearly made this thought that you know, he 703 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 1: sort of had an eye that if he the first 704 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 1: time he fired all these people and it was used 705 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,399 Speaker 1: to undermine him, so this time he would fire no one. 706 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: Do you think that that has been a smart play? 707 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: And talk us through sort of what you think in 708 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: connection with Ebstein. 709 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 5: I hate to call it smart because it's really disgraceful 710 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 5: and disgusting and immoral, and I can't call anything like 711 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 5: that smart, but you know I can at the same time, 712 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 5: concede that it works in the short term. I mean 713 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 5: lying works for somebody like Trump in the short term. 714 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 5: Just deny, deny, deny, and turn the accusations. That often 715 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 5: when you can turn the accusations around on your accuser 716 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 5: and say what you're guilty of about them, and that 717 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 5: muddies things up and that confuses and then the press, 718 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 5: following the rules of mainstream journalism, has to write, well, 719 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 5: it's complicated, and that confuses a lot of people in 720 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,359 Speaker 5: LATINX case. By the way, nice to see somebody at 721 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 5: CBS News doing some reporting. Still, that's that's good. That 722 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 5: was a good story. I don't think let Nick was 723 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 5: doing anything, you know, sick. It did take his daughters 724 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 5: with him, but it was obviously some business thing. 725 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 1: I guess who knows, right, We don't know. 726 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 5: Yeah, but yeah, the fact is he did lie. 727 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 3: He just he lied. 728 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,840 Speaker 5: And when you lie that blatantly, there's usually some reason 729 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 5: in your life. 730 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. The Viten diagram of people in the Trump cabinet 731 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,360 Speaker 1: and people in the Epstein files is not quite a circle, 732 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,799 Speaker 1: but there's quite a lot of overlap. Right now, we're 733 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,400 Speaker 1: in a situation where the rest of the world is 734 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: taking this deadly seriously, when the Trump administration is not 735 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,879 Speaker 1: When you look back at me Too, the original Me Too, 736 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 1: there wasn't a ton of legal accountability, with the exception 737 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: of Harvey Weinstein, but there was a lot of like 738 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,760 Speaker 1: social accountability. Do you think that stuff gets stopped because 739 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: of the admin or you think that could happen anyway, 740 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 1: because what we've seen is like corporations which used to 741 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: pretend to be moral have really bought into trump Ism. 742 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 5: My instinct on that is pretty grim. There's not going 743 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 5: to be a lot of social accountability as long as 744 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 5: Trump's in the White House and really advance or whoever 745 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 5: follows him in the White House, because they're going to 746 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 5: bottle it up in the legal system and they're going 747 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 5: to prevent these things from coming out, and there's just 748 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 5: not going to be any oxygen in the culture for 749 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 5: us to really discuss these things in a serious way. 750 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 5: The role of presidential administration molly plays in these kinds 751 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 5: of social and cultural questions, I think is that, you 752 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 5: know two things. A tone is established by the way 753 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 5: the president talks and the things the president seems to 754 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 5: care about not care about. That's number one and number two, 755 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 5: as I said, legally, a Justice department can keep things 756 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 5: under wraps and just not let them get out. I 757 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 5: think on Epstein, you know, if there's a democratic administration 758 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 5: in twenty twenty nine, I think we'll really get somewhere. 759 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 5: I'm not sure how we get somewhere before that. It's possible, 760 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 5: you know, there could be some brief people in the 761 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 5: Justice Department who have stuff that are willing to be 762 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 5: whistleblowers and are willing to leak things. We've seen a 763 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 5: number of whistle blowers already in this first administration or 764 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 5: in the first year of this administration, and there may 765 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 5: be well be more. 766 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 1: That is certainly true. So I want to talk about 767 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: what it looks like you think right now? Because the 768 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,879 Speaker 1: Democrats have an opportunity to sort of claim the moral 769 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: high ground. We've seen that with certain members of party. 770 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: I wonder what you think that might look like. 771 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,320 Speaker 5: You know, on Epstein things, I think they're doing pretty well. Conna, 772 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 5: I think it has done a terrific job, and others 773 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 5: like Raskin have pitched in. You know, there's only so 774 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,760 Speaker 5: far they can get until all of those documents are released. 775 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 5: And I also, you know, we assume they've read a 776 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 5: lot more than you and I have had access to. 777 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 5: So they know things, but they just can't say it yet, right, 778 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 5: don't you think? 779 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: Yes, they know certain things, But then there's also all 780 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: this reaction that wasn't supposed to be there that they 781 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,320 Speaker 1: can't get. So I would say I think the co conspirators, 782 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 1: Les Wexner, I think there's more certainly, yes, you know, 783 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: and Massey has that list of two hundred and fifty 784 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: names that the survivors gave him. The thing that's so 785 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,799 Speaker 1: insane about this case is you have more than a 786 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: thousand victims, you have huge numbers of them who are 787 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 1: in contact with legislators, and you have states like New 788 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 1: York where the statute has been changed. 789 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 790 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 5: Still though, you know, it takes a lot of courage 791 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 5: to come forward. And so this woman who was a 792 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,399 Speaker 5: girl at the time, with these Trump allegations that are 793 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 5: part of the story that NPR broke, you know, who 794 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 5: is she? Where is she? Is she contemplating coming forward? 795 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 5: I mean there's a lot, you know, she risks a lot. 796 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 5: You know, she's going to get death threats and kind 797 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 5: of all that sort of thing. I could see why 798 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 5: she wouldn't want to do it. 799 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,320 Speaker 1: You know, when I talked to Danny Belski, who's one 800 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:01,399 Speaker 1: of the most coherent, thoughtful, I want to say, she's 801 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: a person who is an extremely good speaker, besides having 802 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:10,879 Speaker 1: had her life just completely pillaged by Epstein. And this 803 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: group of survivors, they all have a relationship with each other. 804 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,919 Speaker 1: Not all of them, but many of them are sort 805 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: of a support group for each other, which is incredibly 806 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: wonderful but also incredibly awful that that needs to happen. 807 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: And when you talk to them, you really do see 808 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: they didn't have a relationship until these files, you know, 809 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: until this law was. 810 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,879 Speaker 5: Passed, right, Yeah, I think this law was a really 811 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 5: important landmark in helping to give that community of people 812 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 5: some courage and galvanize them hopefully into a sense of 813 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,399 Speaker 5: common action. But it's still a very hard thing to do, 814 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 5: you know, to come forward against powerful people, especially President 815 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,920 Speaker 5: of the United States, who's as vindictive as we know this 816 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:54,360 Speaker 5: one to be. 817 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:56,759 Speaker 1: I talked to a member of Congress who said, one 818 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: of the problems is you can't say you can defend 819 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: people when you maybe can't defend them when you're just 820 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 1: trying to defend yourself. When people like Eric Swallwow, and 821 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:14,399 Speaker 1: Mark Kelly or being pursued by this Justice Department for 822 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 1: you know, Mark Kelly's a great example of someone who 823 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: made an ad that said you don't have to break 824 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:24,879 Speaker 1: the law, and the Trump administration went after him. I mean, 825 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: it's hard to feel safe in that environment. 826 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, we don't. 827 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 5: Need any more evidence that. You know, they'll go after 828 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 5: political enemies with all the weight prosecutorial weight they have. 829 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 5: Now these things all get thrown out. So James Comy, Leticia, James, 830 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 5: et cetera, and their prosecutors are Keystone Cops half the time. 831 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 5: So you know, it's really in a sense if I were, 832 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 5: if you're one of those people, it's kind of nothing 833 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 5: to worry about because it's it's are very strong and 834 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:54,880 Speaker 5: it's going to get thrown out. But still, you know 835 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:56,839 Speaker 5: your life's going to be turned upside down and you've 836 00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,160 Speaker 5: got to go through your emails and your texts and 837 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 5: you know, and and just and spend you know, at 838 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 5: least I would imagine fifty to seventy thousand dollars on 839 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 5: a lawyer at the very least. 840 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 1: It's funny because it's like, you know, when you think 841 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: about a DOJ that really just exists to promote Trump 842 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,640 Speaker 1: and trump Ism and protect him. It's hard to imagine 843 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: coming back from that. 844 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 5: It is, but we live in a very weird universe, Molly. 845 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,319 Speaker 5: It was hard to imagine Donald Trump coming back from 846 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:28,319 Speaker 5: what he came back from. 847 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good point. So we're in the beginning 848 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 1: of midterms. We're about to go into a primary season 849 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,760 Speaker 1: which is going to be, I'm sure as crazy as anything. 850 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: What are you watching in the Democratic Party? We're seeing 851 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 1: crazy donations to candidates, but the starving of the DNC. 852 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,800 Speaker 1: You know, I'm just curious what kind of trends you're seeing. 853 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:54,560 Speaker 5: I want to see Democratic candidates who you know, fight 854 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 5: and throw some elbows and not stick to this horrible 855 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 5: consult playbook of being cautious and just talking about prescription 856 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,480 Speaker 5: drugs or whatever it is, and you know, not talking about, oh, 857 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 5: don't take on Trump, or don't talk about democracy, or 858 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,439 Speaker 5: don't you know those kinds of things. I mean, one 859 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 5: the thing that I liked about Abigail Spanberger's response to 860 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 5: the State of the Union Wednesday night was that she 861 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:20,640 Speaker 5: did those things, you know. I mean, she talked a 862 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 5: lot about affordability, but then she talked a lot about Ice. 863 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,440 Speaker 5: She talked a lot about Trump's personal corruption, which I 864 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,760 Speaker 5: thought was great. So I hate this conversation, this internal 865 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,840 Speaker 5: conversation among Democrats that like just stick to these safe 866 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 5: kitchen table issues or should do you know, don't do demotion, No, 867 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,440 Speaker 5: talk about it all. It's all true, and it's all related, 868 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,880 Speaker 5: talk about it all and attack. So I want to 869 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 5: see Democratic candidates who will fight an attack. And then 870 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,400 Speaker 5: I guess you know, there are a couple of particularly 871 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,600 Speaker 5: interesting primaries that I know you're watching too. The Texas 872 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,800 Speaker 5: primary election is what next week, I think, So, yeah, 873 00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,600 Speaker 5: that's an interesting one between Taller, Rico and Crockett for 874 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:00,640 Speaker 5: that Senate. 875 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,000 Speaker 1: Nod and the Democrats have I mean that just the 876 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 1: sheer number of voters. Democrats are at like one hundred 877 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,719 Speaker 1: and two percent of the twenty twenty number, whereas Republicans 878 00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:14,280 Speaker 1: are at like fifty percent. 879 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:19,799 Speaker 5: Yeah, enrollment's favorite Democrats. Enthusiasm certainly favorites Democrats. So it 880 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,920 Speaker 5: should be a wipeout, you know, assuming the election happens. 881 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:28,279 Speaker 1: Yes, and we shall assume it happens. Mike TAMASKI, thank you, thank. 882 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:32,800 Speaker 3: You, thank you. No moment. 883 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 2: Jesse Cannon Somali the Irs broke the law by disclosing 884 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,759 Speaker 2: confidential information to Ice forty two thousand times. 885 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,200 Speaker 1: I am shocked to hear that Trump's Ice has broken 886 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,239 Speaker 1: the law. It was a really good piece today in 887 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:55,280 Speaker 1: the Atlantic about this book that's coming out about Christy Nome. 888 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:56,479 Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw it. 889 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 3: I did see it. 890 00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Corey and what they're up to. And I 891 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,880 Speaker 1: think we're going to be in the golden age of 892 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:10,200 Speaker 1: some really good reporting on just how insane what's happening is. 893 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,400 Speaker 1: I think there's going to be a lot of reporting 894 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 1: about this homeland security. And remember, like we already know 895 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,920 Speaker 1: that Corey wanted to be Christie's truth of staff and 896 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 1: Trump turned it down. And there's a lot of gossip 897 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,920 Speaker 1: that the reason that they fired the pilot was about 898 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,440 Speaker 1: a bag and maybe there was something in the bag. 899 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: And I just think at this moment, these people are 900 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: really like, it's just a house cards. But yeah, they're 901 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,640 Speaker 1: doing a legal shit. We know they're doing a legal shit. 902 00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,879 Speaker 1: They tell us they're doing ilegal shit every day. Yeah, 903 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:48,120 Speaker 1: that's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 904 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:53,760 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 905 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 906 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,200 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 907 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,880 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.