1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: Frye and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. Hey, Tracy. I had 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: my first MRI recently. Yeah, do not recommend. Didn't enjoy it. However, 5 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: I do recommend. Yeah, Yeah, I have had one, but 6 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: I think I had the easier version of it than 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: you did. Did you go in the tube? Only my 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: leg had to be in the tube? Oh the jealousy 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: I feel. My head did not have to be in there. Yeah. 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: I my MRI tech Timothy, who was one of the 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: kindest people I have ever dealt with in medicine, was 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: very sweet and he let me flip so that my 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: head was the last thing in. But my head was 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: in the tube, and I'm claustrophobic, and I definitely had 15 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: some freaky outy Yeah, but it was cool to get 16 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: a ton of information about what's going on in my body. Also, 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: I'm fine. If anybody's worried, hell a little, we'll gall 18 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: bladder eviction. But all well. But as I was lying 19 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: there in that noisy, claustrophobic tube, I literally was like, 20 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: who on Earth decided this was a good idea. This 21 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: is a torture device. It is a good idea, you 22 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: get really great images. But it made me wonder how 23 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: this whole thing came to be. And then I started 24 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: looking at it and I discovered this is a very 25 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: controversial question of who invented the MRI, and so I thought, 26 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: let's unpack that. So let me be real. I love science, 27 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: but getting into the nitty gritty on quantum mechanics to 28 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: part of this and superconductors and similar ideas is beyond 29 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: what I can grasp. Sure, so we're going to talk 30 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: about how the science came to be. We'll talk about 31 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: some of the science, but it's definitely the layman's terms 32 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: and cliffs notes versions when it comes to any of 33 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: the hard science here. So if there are any scientists 34 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: in the crowd who are like Holly, that's not quite right. 35 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: I'm not surprised. This is also a two parter because 36 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: there were a lot of people that worked on this 37 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: technology in different ways over the years, even people that 38 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: didn't know that their work was going to become part 39 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: of it, And as much as possible, I really wanted 40 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: to highlight some of their key biographies because a lot 41 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: of these men have Nobel prizes. A lot of these 42 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: men really changed the world as we know it. So 43 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: it's two parts, and part one covers some of the 44 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: key moments that led up to the idea of an 45 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: MRI even existing and the developments in technology that got 46 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: to that point where someone was like, could we apply 47 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: this in a medical way? And then part two is 48 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: going to delve into how the first MRI machine was 49 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: built and then all of the controversies that followed. So 50 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 1: we'll start with what magnetic resonance imaging is at its 51 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: most basic, it's the use of a strong magnetic field 52 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: in conjunction with radio waves to get imaging. The most 53 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: common versions of MRI machines look like tubes that a 54 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: patient is slid into. This tube is surrounded by a 55 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: superconducting magnet and that in turn is surrounded by liquid helium. 56 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: The machine generates radio waves that stimulate the protons of 57 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: the hydrogen atoms in the patient's body. There are other atoms, 58 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: but we'll talk about why hydrogen is the important one 59 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: later on. Those protons spin out of equilibrium because of 60 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: the magnetic field, and then when the radio waves are 61 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: stopped and the protons hustle to realign to normal. That movement, 62 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: which we'll talk about again later, it's called relaxation, can 63 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: be captured by sensors in the machine, and this all 64 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: comes together to create detailed imagery of everything going on 65 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: in the body. Sometimes dyes are used to amplify the 66 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: imagery that's able to be captured, and then doctors and 67 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: radiologists can analyze that captured information to identify disease or 68 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: issues that might need treatment. Like nowadays, you know it's 69 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: things like is there misalignment in your knee or hip 70 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: or whatever. It can be used for a lot of 71 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: different things. So if you've ever had an MRI, if 72 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: you've talked to somebody who has had an MRI, you 73 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: know they're loud, notoriously loud, and also inconsistently, so there 74 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: are banging noises that just change throughout the imaging session. 75 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: I think that's part of what makes them seem stressful 76 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: to people, is that this unpredictable banging noise is happening. 77 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: Go in a tiny closet, someone is going to bang 78 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: against the walls of the closet with pots and pants. 79 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: It's cool, it's for medicine, just saying tight. Yeah, So 80 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: all of that banging is because the current that runs 81 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: the magnetic field is passing through three differently aligned sets 82 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: of coils. They are associated with the x, y, and 83 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 1: Z planes of visual image capture. This combination of electric 84 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 1: and mag forces is called a Lorentz force, and that 85 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: force is acting on the coils. It causes them to vibrate. 86 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: As these different pulses are used to get a complete picture, 87 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: the vibrations changed, so the different noises happen, and the 88 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: patient is sort of inside all of this most of 89 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: the time. I was lucky in that my head was 90 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: like not fully into it, so I had a little buffer. 91 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: But that means that everything is amplified in there. Yeah. 92 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: I read one thing that described it as like imagine 93 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: you're sitting in the middle of a drum while someone 94 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: is drumming, and it was like, oh, yeah, that's pretty accurate. Actually, 95 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: the huge benefit of an MRI is that it is 96 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: a non invasive way to get excellent imaging for analysis. 97 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: It doesn't emit radiation the way X rays or CT 98 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: scans do, and it can capture an awful lot of detail. 99 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: But it's also not a technology that everyone can take 100 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: advantage of even if the issues of cost, insurance, and 101 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: availability of machines were non existent. And that's because of 102 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: the magnet field and its potential to interact with non 103 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: tissue objects. So if you have had a surgical implant 104 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: like a pacemaker or an insulin pump or any number 105 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: of other devices, you shouldn't get in an MRI because 106 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: the magnet will pull on those. There are also issues 107 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: when it comes to patients with claustrophobia. Boy don't I 108 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: know it, Although there are efforts to get around this problem. 109 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: One of the ways that this has been addressed is 110 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: through the development of open MRIs that are open on 111 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: the sides and even in some cases the use of sedation. 112 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: And there are unsurprisingly a lot of people involved in 113 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: the development of this technology and a lot of debate 114 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: over who should get the credit for it. This is 115 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: an episode that moves a little closer to our current 116 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: time than our episodes usually do, because disagreements about how 117 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: to give credit continue up to today. One part of 118 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: the issue is that different people develops different ideas that 119 00:06:55,040 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: will ultimately combined to create magnetic resonance imaging. That's not 120 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: necessarily unusual, but each stage of development was also a 121 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: huge advance, So which moment should be credited most, that's 122 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: difficult to say. Another thing that makes it such a 123 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: puzzle is that some of the work was done in 124 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: the medical community and some of it was done in 125 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: the physics community. So okay, As Tracy just mentioned, there 126 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: is lots of science that builds on other science to 127 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: pave the way for this tech, but one of the 128 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: very earliest important steps specific to this was made by 129 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: physicist Isidore Isaac Rabbi. Robbie was born on July twenty ninth, 130 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety eight, in Raimenov, which was part of Austria 131 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: Hungary at the time. Today it is part of Poland, 132 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: and when he was still a small baby, his parents, 133 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: David Robbie and Janetigue, moved to New York City, where 134 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: he went to public school, and after completing his early schooling, 135 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: he attended Cornell and got a bachelor's degree in chemistry. 136 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: But then when he went to graduate school at Columbia, 137 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: he changed his field of interest to physics, and he 138 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: received his PhD in that field in nineteen twenty seven. 139 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: For two years after receiving his PhD, Robbie did research 140 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: in Europe, working alongside the likes of Nils Heinrich, David Bohr, 141 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: and Werner Karl Heisenberg. Then he returned to Columbia to 142 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: teach theoretical physics. In nineteen forty he joined MIT to 143 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: work on radar and the technology behind the atomic bomb. 144 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: He would go on to work with the Atomic Energy 145 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: Commission starting in the late nineteen forties. Was credited with 146 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:38,719 Speaker 1: coming up with the concept for a collaborative international laboratory 147 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: that eventually became CERN. But the most germane part of 148 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: his work, as it relates to the topic of MRIs, 149 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: began in the nineteen thirties when he started studying the 150 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: nuclei of atoms and how magnetic fields affected them. He 151 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: developed what he called a resonance method for recording the 152 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: magnetic properties of atomic nuclei. That meant he was able 153 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: to develop a method for detecting and measuring the rotations 154 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: of atoms and molecules. He won the Nobel Prize in 155 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: Physics for this work in nineteen forty four. Yeah, as 156 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: we talk through all of these different biographies, you'll see 157 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: how many of these people overlap with the same kind 158 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: of researchers and some of the same big names that 159 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: you have heard probably throughout your life. The next person 160 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: that we have to talk about is one of those 161 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: people who both overlaps with a lot of famous people 162 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: and is himself famous, and that's Felix Block, who was 163 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: a physicist who was born in Zurich, Switzerland, on October 164 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: twenty third, nineteen oh five. Felix had a somewhat difficult childhood. 165 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: When he started school at the age of six, he 166 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: apparently spoke with what's described as an odd accent and 167 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: other kids made fun of him. And he also lost 168 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: his older sister, who he was very close to, when 169 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: she was just twelve, and he is described as having 170 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: been withdrawn and depressed for several years after her eyeing. 171 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,359 Speaker 1: The outbreak of World War One only added to his depression, 172 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: but eventually he found solace in learning, and while he 173 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: got a comprehensive education, math was absolutely always his favorite subject. 174 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: He enrolled in Zurich's Federal Institute of Technology in nineteen 175 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: twenty four with a focus on engineering, but he eventually 176 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: switched to physics, later saying that that was a decision 177 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: he just could not help making. When it came time 178 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: to move into graduate studies. Block worked under Werner Heisenberg. 179 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: He was Heisenberg's first graduate student, and together they used 180 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 1: quantum mechanical theory to examine metal conductivity and the relationship 181 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: between thermal conductivity and electrical conductivity. This ultimately led to 182 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: Block's thesis, The Quantum Mechanics of Electrons and Crystal Lattices 183 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: that was published in nineteen twenty eight. This work, which 184 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: involves the discovery of what are called block waves, is 185 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: often cited is as opening the door for technologies in radio, television, 186 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: space exploration, and more because it catalyzed the ability to 187 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: shift from vacuum tubes to semiconductors yep, it made everything 188 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: smaller and more compact. After touring Europe to work alongside 189 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: other researchers in physics, Block became Heisenberg's assistant in Leipzig 190 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty. He continued to publish, writing important work 191 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: on ferromagnetism and quantum theory. In nineteen thirty two, he 192 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: became a privat docent. That's a lecturer who isn't paid 193 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: directly by a school as a salaried employee, but as 194 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: someone who makes their living through the fees that students 195 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: pay for their classes. But this position allowed him to 196 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: continue his own research and his own writing as well. 197 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: But the Nazi Party was rising to power, so Block 198 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: sought away to leave Leipzig. He applied for and received 199 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: a Rockefeller Fellowship, and that allowed him to go just 200 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: about anywhere he might want to work. He had a 201 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: gap between when he left his teaching job and when 202 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: the fellowship began, and he spent that time in Zurich. 203 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: He moved on to Rome once the fellowship began, working 204 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: alongside Enrico Fermi. Then he was offered a job at Stanford, 205 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: working as an associate professor of physics. That was autumn 206 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: of nineteen thirty three, and Hitler had become Chancellor of Germany. 207 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: The twenty eight year old Block took the job and 208 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: left Europe. Coming up, we're going to talk about another 209 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: big name in science that is part of Felix Block's story, 210 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: but first we will pause for a sponsor break. So 211 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: Felix block story has already brushed up against a lot 212 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: of notable scientists of the early twentieth century, and that 213 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: continued once he moved to Stanford. For example, he spent 214 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: a lot of time with Robert Oppenheimer, who was working 215 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,839 Speaker 1: at Berkeley at the time. Two of them even co 216 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: taught a seminar that crossed over between their schools, alternating 217 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: locations for each lecture. I feel like that's kind of 218 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: an unusual and unprecedented and probably difficult to do thing today. 219 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 1: This was a really exciting time though. In physics. The 220 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: neutron had been discovered by James Chadwick in nineteen thirty two, 221 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: and Block, Oppenheimer, and all of their colleagues in the 222 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: field were working to understand neutron interactions. Block was involved 223 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: in a lot of noteworthy moments in science history, and 224 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: specifically in regard to quantum mechanics. He worked at Los 225 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: Alamos during World War II and worked in radar evasion 226 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: tech at Harvard. When World War Two ended, Block returned 227 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: to California and he resumed his research at Stanford, specifically 228 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: focusing on nuclear magnetic resonance. This work was published as 229 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: the paper Nuclear Induction, which Block wrote with co authors W. W. 230 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 1: Hanson and Martin Packard in nineteen forty six. Felix Block 231 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: and his colleagues described the way that nuclei of various 232 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 1: elements are influenced by magnetism, but completely independently of Block's lab. 233 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: Another man, Edward M. Purcell, also published a paper in 234 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: nineteen forty six titled Resonance absorption by nuclear magnetic moments 235 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: in a solid describing the same thing. Percell, like Block, 236 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: had co authors. These were HC. Tory and RV. Pound. 237 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: They described the same discovery. This would become an important 238 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: piece of the bedrock of MRI technology. Although neither of 239 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: these men were interested in medicine, Percell, like Block, was 240 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: a physicist. The work of both labs examined the way 241 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: that nuclear magnetic resonance, known more commonly as NMR, affected 242 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: both liquid and solid matter. So let's backtrack a little 243 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: bit to contextualize who Percell was. Edward Mills Percell was 244 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: born in Taylorville, Illinois, on August thirtieth, nineteen twelve. His father, 245 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: Edward A. Percell, worked as a manager at the phone company, 246 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: and his mother, Elizabeth Mills Purcell, was a teacher before 247 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: she married and had Edward and his younger brother. Edward 248 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: is said to have just loved playing with the discarded 249 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: equipment from his father's job, and that playing with it 250 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: helped stoke his interest in technology. And science. He also 251 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: routinely read his father's copies of the Bell System Technical Journal, 252 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: which cracks me up a little bit. Edward later said 253 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: of that journal quote, they were fascinating because for the 254 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: first time I saw technical articles obviously elegantly edited and 255 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: prepared and illustrated, full of mathematics that was well beyond 256 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: my understanding. It was a glimpse into some kind of 257 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: wonderful world where electricity and mathematics and engineering and nice 258 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: diagrams all came together. The nice diagrams part of that 259 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: quote charmed me so much. It's so sweet he I mean, 260 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: seems like he was probably a great dude. Yeah. In 261 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine, Percell enrolled at Purdue University to study 262 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: electrical engineering, but he fell in love with physics as 263 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: an undergraduate and started an independent study course on the 264 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: subject while still maintaining his status as an electrical engineering 265 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: major when his senior year ended. He stayed at the 266 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: school through the summer after graduation to work on two 267 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: papers that were eventually published, one on electron diffraction and 268 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: the other on thin films manufacture. On the heels of 269 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: his graduation, Percell was given an exchange fellowship that took 270 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: him to Germany, and this was nineteen thirty three, so 271 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: he was getting into Germany just as Block would have 272 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: been figuring out a way to leave. So this was 273 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: kind of a strange time to have this opportunity, to 274 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: be sure, but it was also life changing in an 275 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: unexpected way. On the ship across the Atlantic, ed Purcell 276 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: met a literature student from the US named Beth Busser, 277 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: and the two of them hit it off. They went 278 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: on a date in Europe to a physics lecture, even 279 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: though Beth didn't understand any of it, apparently, and they 280 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: became a couple and they married a few years later. 281 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: When that year of study in Germany concluded, Percell went 282 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: back to the United States and started a position in 283 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: the physics department at Harvard University, where he worked on 284 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: his dissertation on three dimensional focusing properties of electrons. When 285 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: his thesis was finished, Percell became a lecturer at Harvard. 286 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: Like many scientists, Percell was also involved in technology research 287 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: during World War II. To help the war effort, he 288 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: worked at the MIT Radiation Lab to improve radar. He 289 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: took a leave of absence from Harvard to do this work. 290 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: A lot of them took leaves of absence from their 291 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: established positions so that they could go to different labs 292 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: and work on this stuff. He was head of the 293 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: Advanced Developments Group at Harvard, and his team's work moved 294 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: radar forward in a way that offered greater resolution in imaging, 295 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: particularly from an aircraft, though real world function was seriously 296 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: hindered by atmospheric humidity. Purcell was asked to stay at 297 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: the MIT lab after the war ended to work with 298 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: a handful of other scientists to document their work that 299 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: they had done during the war to prepare it for publication. 300 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: And it was during that post wartime at Harvard that 301 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: he started to collaborate with Robert V. Pound and Henry C. 302 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: Torre to, according to Pound quote, jointly design and undertake, 303 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 1: in our spare time an effort to detect resonant absorption 304 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: of radio frequency energy by atomic nuclei in solid matter 305 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: held in a strong magnetic field. So that of course 306 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 1: led to the paper that dovetailed right on the one 307 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: that Felix Block had written, so back to the nineteen 308 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: forty six work in nuclear magnetic resonance. The reason this 309 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: work was so important was because if you can observe 310 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: a specific type of matter reacting to a strong stationary magnet, 311 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: and you can identify the unique way that any given 312 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,479 Speaker 1: elements nuclei by hany even that situation, you can create 313 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: a sort of map to read unknown matter, apply magnetism, 314 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: watch the reaction of the nuclei, and then match that 315 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: reaction to the database of observations. You'll figure out what 316 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: you're dealing with. And while this was not aimed at 317 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: medical use initially, you can see how it would become 318 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: important in that field because it could be applied to 319 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: tissue to detect things like cancer. Block and Purcell met 320 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: for the first time in April of nineteen forty six. 321 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: They both attended the meeting of the American Physical Society 322 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: that took place that month in Cambridge, Massachusetts. They got 323 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: to talking and realized they had been working on the 324 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: same idea, although they didn't approach it in exactly the 325 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: same way. And this is one of those rare and 326 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: sort of lovely instances where the two of them recognized 327 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: each other as competitors but also became friends. In nineteen 328 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: fifty two, Block and Purcell shared the Nobel Prize for 329 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: Physics quote for their development of new mal methods for 330 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: nuclear magnetic precision measurements and discoveries in connection therewith. In 331 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 1: his Nobel speech, Felix Block talked about all the scientists 332 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: who had come before him and laid the groundwork for 333 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: his research. When Felix Block got the news of this 334 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: joint award, he sent Percell a telegram in verse that 335 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: read quote, I think it is swell for Ed Purcell 336 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 1: to share the shock with Felix Block. If that's not 337 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: the cutest thing you've ever seen, I kind of love 338 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: these two. Love their I love their friendship. Okay, So 339 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: Block and Purcell have the building blocks figured out, so 340 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: of course next there will be a Eureka moment that 341 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: leads to the MRI. Not exactly, there is a big 342 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: time gap here. We'll talk about that gap and how 343 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: the idea of magnetism to analyze matter made the jump 344 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: from physics to medicine after we hear from the sponsors 345 00:20:53,080 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: that keep the show going. Though there was this recognition 346 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: in the form of a Nobel Prize of the importance 347 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 1: of the work of Block and Purcell, it didn't lead 348 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: to a sudden adaptation of this information into medical use. 349 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: In a text written by al Luton titled Magnetic Resonance Imaging, 350 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: A Historical Introduction, which was written in nineteen ninety nine. 351 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: The author notes, right out of the gate quote, the 352 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: discovery and development of magnetic resonance imaging is one of 353 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: the most spectacular and successful events in the history of 354 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: medical imaging. However, there is a time gap of almost 355 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: thirty years between the discovery of nuclear magnetic resonance simultaneously 356 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: and independently by Block and by Purcell in nineteen forty 357 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: six and the first imaging experiments in the nineteen seventies 358 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: by Louderber and by Damadian. We're going to be talking 359 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: about Louderber and Domadian at length later on. In nineteen 360 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: fifty three, Eric Odeblad traveled from Sweden to the United 361 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: States research as a Rockefeller Foundation Fellow. Odoblad was born 362 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: on January thirty first, nineteen twenty two, in Christenham, Sweden, 363 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: and in nineteen fifty two, after completing medical school in Stockholm, 364 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: his career was really just beginning. He had begun to 365 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: work just the year before at the Karolinska Institute, which 366 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: is a medical university, and his Rockefeller Fellowship took him 367 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: to Stanford University where he met Felix Block. Odeblod asked 368 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: Block for the chance to use the NMR spectrometer that 369 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: Block used in his lab to look at human tissue samples. 370 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: So he had this idea, but Block turned him down 371 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: because he thought this was a machine for physicists and 372 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: not doctors. But Odeblad did not let go of this idea, 373 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: and after he returned to Sweden he managed to get 374 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: an NMR spectrometer of his own, and there he worked 375 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: with Gunner Lindstrom on research with human tissue that would 376 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: become the basis of the paper Some Preliminary Observations on 377 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: the Proton magnetic Resonance in Biologic Samples that was published 378 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty five. Odeblad and Lindstrom showed in their 379 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: paper the differences in proton signals of various types of samples. 380 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: At the very beginning of the paper, for example, they 381 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 1: include side by side images of the proton signals of 382 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: water and living yeast cells when the same magnetic field 383 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: and operating conditions were used on the two samples, and 384 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: its apparent even to the layman that they're producing different signals. 385 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: The next big event on the MRI timeline, and it's 386 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: a big one. Takes place in the nineteen sixties when 387 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: doctor Raymond Damadian was working with nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, 388 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: but this was still not working with human tissue. He 389 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: was examining chemicals contained in test tubes after using NMR 390 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: to look for potassium in dead sea bacteria samples as 391 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: an avenue of research prompted by his colleague Freeman Cope. 392 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: According to Domanians, the county started to wonder if this 393 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 1: technology could be applied to scanning human bodies. When Damadian 394 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: talked about this, it's apparent that the analysis of the 395 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 1: dead sea bacteria stoked his imagination of what this tech 396 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: could do. Quote. I remember the first time I saw 397 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: a potassium signal. This huge blip filled the ocilloscope screen. 398 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: I had never seen an NMR machine, and it had 399 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: a profound effect on me. I mean, wow, in a 400 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: few seconds, we were taking a measurement that would usually 401 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: take me weeks sometimes months to do accurately. I had 402 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: a reaction to the potency of this. It was doing 403 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: chemistry by wireless electronics. So let's take a minute and 404 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: talk about who was this passionately curious man. He was 405 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 1: born Raymond Vaughan Damadian on March sixteenth, nineteen thirty six, 406 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: in Manhattan. His Armenian American family lived in Queen's and 407 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: both of his parents worked. His father, Vaughn, was a 408 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: newspaper photo engraver, and his mother, od was an accountant. 409 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: Raymond Damadian was clearly an incredibly smart kid. He loved 410 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: to build model planes, and he loved to solve problems. 411 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: He also showed both talent and dedication to violin, and 412 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: he enrolled at Juilliard, where he studied for several years 413 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: until he switched his life plan to science. He received 414 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: a Ford Foundation scholarship and studied mathematics at the University 415 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: of Wisconsin before moving on to medical studies at the 416 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: Albert Einstein College of Medicine. After completing his medical degree, 417 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 1: he moved on to biophysics at Harvard, and it was 418 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: there that his interest in magnetic resonance was sparked. He 419 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: next moved to a position at Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, 420 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: and there his research and fascination with magnetic resonance continued. 421 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: Damadian cited a couple of different inspirations for his interests 422 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: in applying this technology to living tissue. One mentioned in 423 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: his biography Gifted Mind, which he wrote along with the 424 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: co author, was that when he was ten and had 425 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: seen his grandmother, Jean Victoria, struggle through breast cancer, which 426 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: she eventually died from. He described her last months as 427 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: complete agony and suffering, and wrote of the experience quote, 428 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: my precious grandmother's death cut me deep inside, leaving a 429 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: lasting emotional scar. While not the sole reason I pursued medicine, 430 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: I believe her death was one factor that drove me 431 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: into research, fueling my passionate quest to find a cure 432 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: for cancer. Another was something that happened to him when 433 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: he was still at Harvard. He started having really bad 434 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: pain in his abdomen and went to a doctor. X 435 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: rays revealed nothing, but he was still experiencing pain, and 436 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: it frustrated him that he could get treatment based on 437 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: like a best guess at what might be the problem, 438 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: but could not get a definitive answer. The only option 439 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: was an exploratory surgery, and that seemed like an extreme 440 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,959 Speaker 1: step when the cause of an illness could be relatively minor, 441 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: like there just had to be some better way to 442 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: get information about what was happening inside of a patient's body. 443 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: When Domanian had his idea about applying magnetic resonance to tissues, 444 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: he first started experimenting with rats and using pulse radio waves. 445 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: He was able to see that rats that had cancerous 446 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: tissue bounced back different radio signals than rats without cancerous tissue. 447 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 1: He had identified values that are today known as T 448 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: one and T two and how they could be used 449 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 1: to identify cancer. So for a very abbreviated and simplified 450 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: lay person's version of what those values are, they are 451 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: measures of internal molecular motion. Each of them is a 452 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: time constant, thus the use of the letter T and 453 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: each of them references what's called relaxation. In this case, 454 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 1: relaxation means the process of returning to natural equilibrium. When 455 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: magnetic force is applied to a molecule, the nucleus spins, 456 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: and when the magnetic four versus removed, the nucleus returns 457 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: to its original state. That's a really rough way to 458 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 1: describe relaxation in this context. T one, which is also 459 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: called spin lattice, references the return to longitudinal magnetization. The 460 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 1: z axis, T two, which is called spin spin is 461 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: the disappearance of transverse magnetization on the x y plane. 462 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: And if you ask me to elaborate further, I would 463 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: get a sad look on my face because I can't. 464 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: That's my limited grasp. Those words went from my eyes 465 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: directly to my mouth with no comprehensive Yeah, it's hard 466 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: to wrap my brain around it. But here's the important part. 467 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: Not all nuclei spin when they're exposed to magnetic resonance. 468 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: Only atoms with an odd number of neutrons or protons 469 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: do so. Something like carbon twelve, which is a carbon 470 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: isotope with six protons and six neutrons, will not spin 471 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: because it's very very stable. This is why we mentioned 472 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: at the very beginning of the episode when talking about 473 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: the basics of MRI that it is typically hydrogen that's 474 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: the focus. It has one proton, and it's one of 475 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: the most common elements of the body. There are other 476 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: elements that can be used in MRI imaging, but hydrogen 477 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: is the most common. The meadian believed that if he 478 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: could show that magnetic resonance could identify cancer, it would 479 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: be proof of concept to develop a machine to perform 480 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: that function that could be used by doctors. He used 481 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: his work with rats as the basis of a paper 482 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: titled Tumor Detection by Nuclear Magnetic Resonance that was published 483 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: in Science in nineteen seventy one. The paper explained how 484 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: the measurements of T one and T two were taken 485 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: on six different normal tissues in rats muscle, kidney, stomach, intestine, brain, 486 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: and liver, and also in two different kinds of malignant tumors, 487 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: one a novikov hepatoma and the other a walker sarcoma. 488 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: The paper noted that quote relaxation times for the two 489 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: malignant tumors were distinctly outside the range of values for 490 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: the normal tissues studied, an indication that the malignant tissues 491 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: were characterized by an increase in the motional freedom of 492 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: tissue water molecules. The following year, on March seventeenth, nineteen 493 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: seventy two, Damadian filed a patent for an apparatus and 494 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: method for detecting cancer in tissue. That patent was granted 495 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: on February fifth, nineteen seventy four, with the number three million, 496 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: seven hundred eighty nine eight hundred thirty two. It was 497 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: the first of many, many dozens of patents he would 498 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: file over the next several decades with Domadian on the 499 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: precipice of taking the leap into actually building a machine 500 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: that could apply nuclear magnetic resonance to a human body 501 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: as a diagnostic tool. We will end part one. Part 502 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: two will cover Damadian's challenges and work to realize his vision, 503 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: as well as the events that led to a lot 504 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: of controversy and bad feeling about this technology. Now I 505 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: have relatively relaxed listener mail after all of that science 506 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: which breaks my brain, and I wish I understood it better. 507 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: This is actually I have two pieces that are both 508 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: in regard to our barbed Wire episode and are about pronunciation, 509 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: but so kind. The first comes from our listener Elaine, 510 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: who writes, Hi, I live in the Chicago area or 511 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: Chicago Land as we call it, writing in a totally 512 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: friendly and non critical way to let you know the 513 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: crazy way locals pronounce to Calb they say the L sound. 514 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: We say it to Cab because we both lived in 515 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: Georgia up yep into Cab County, specifically, Yeah, to Cab County, voter, 516 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: to Cab County, jury duty, all that right, Cab Avenue. Uh, 517 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: and we don't pronounce the L, and she writes, they 518 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: say the L sound. I don't know how to spell 519 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: that out phonetically, but it's basically pronounced by saying all 520 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: the letter want to know how we say what looks 521 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: to someone like me de Plaine, We say both s sounds, 522 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: so it's does planes. I guess I've lived here a 523 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: while now so that it actually confuses surprises me when 524 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: the phone directions say it in a more French correct way. 525 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: The town of Bourbonet, just how it's spelled, is pronounced Burboynes. 526 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: For real, she says, here's my friend's Bundy for pet tax. 527 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: That bunny as cute as pie. Oh oh, I haven't 528 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: been around rabbits a lot since I was a kid. Yeah, 529 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: and I both like them and have some mixed memories 530 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: about them being hard to cuddle, But my understanding from 531 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: friends that have rabbits, some are very cuddly, some are not, 532 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: just like any other animal. We also got an email 533 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: from our listener Caroline, who says same things. Should I've 534 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: been enjoying your podcast for so many years and have 535 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: attended one of your live events in Chicago before COVID, 536 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: and I'm very excited to see you both again soon 537 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: in Indianapolis. Quick note, you can, I think, still get 538 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: tickets for us at the Indiana Historical Society, so jump 539 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: on that if you're interested in seeing us live show 540 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: July nineteenth. Yes, and she continues, thank you so much 541 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: for making the history of everyone from everywhere so accessible 542 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: for all of us. As a longtime listener, I cannot 543 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: recall how many times you've mentioned how hard you both 544 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: work to pronounce people's names and place names correctly, and 545 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,239 Speaker 1: I appreciate all of the hard work that goes into that. 546 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: So here's what I hope you'll read as a gentle correction. 547 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: A side note. You guys are so polite and sweet 548 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: about this. I love it. The email continues, I just 549 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: finished listening to the barbed Wire episode, and I got 550 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: very excited to hear the name of the city in 551 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: which my family and I live. I don't know if 552 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: you've already received emails or other communication about this episode 553 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: and the pronunciation of Decalb, which is so hard for 554 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: me to say. I'm just gonna laugh at myself for 555 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: a minute. Caroline continues, as a Decalb, Illinois residence, it 556 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: was a little distracting to hear the name of our 557 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: city in county pronounce the way it would be pronounced 558 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: in Georgia. Here we pronounce the L, so it comes 559 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: out sounding like the crossword puzzle word for a white 560 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: vestament worn by clergy alb. That may be confusing coming 561 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: from people in a state who do not want you 562 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: to say the final s in Illinois, but there it is. 563 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: We've lived here since two thousand and five, and both 564 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: my husband and I have attended NIU, which is the 565 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: normal school. Our children grew up here and know far 566 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: more about barbed wire and all of its history than 567 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 1: I will probably ever know. They were both marching barbs 568 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: for Decalb High School. We also have the Decalb Library, 569 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 1: which was sensitively renovated to retain much of the original building. 570 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: Attached are my pet taxes. Penny is the Blue Nose, 571 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: Pepper is the black Beauty. These are two of my 572 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: grand kitties, Ducky the Siamese Marmalade and Magpie the Burmese 573 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: best Carolyn, which I have been saying the wrong way. 574 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: I am obsessed with your dogs. Penny is so cute. 575 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm obsessed. This is the cutest picture of 576 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: Penny sleeping obsessed kitties. Black kitties, which we both love, 577 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: an orange kitty, which we both love. I love an 578 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 1: orange cat. That's on my wish list for future future 579 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: kitty acquisitions, as an orange baby because I haven't had 580 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: one yet. And this little sweet I mean, the face 581 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,439 Speaker 1: that you would want to give all of the food 582 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: and snacks to Pepper is so cute. I feel like 583 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: if I were in your house, I would just spend 584 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: all my time kissing and hugging your animals. That sounds correct. 585 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: They may or may not want, which is the problem 586 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,800 Speaker 1: that I have as a full time el my Reduff. 587 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,399 Speaker 1: Thank you both for your gentle corrections. I will tell 588 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: you that I had a moment when I was listening 589 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: to the QA and I was like, oh, I think 590 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: they say that different in Illinois. But we have both 591 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: been traveling, and I was like, there's no way we 592 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: can get a pick up in this, so I'm just 593 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 1: letting it fly. So I had a moment before we 594 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: recorded where I was like, I feel like there's one 595 00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: of the cabs that says it differently. Because there are 596 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 1: multiple places, they're all named after the same person. Even 597 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: though not everyone says it the same way. And normally 598 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: when there are different pronunciations for a place that is 599 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: spelled the same, when you go to four vo dot com, 600 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: they're all in there, yes, And in this case there 601 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: was only the cab. So uh like that was my because, 602 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: as you said, we both were traveling. We were trying 603 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: to get episodes recorded ahead of traveling, and that was 604 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: like my super quick check was at four voh and 605 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: fourvo only had one pronunciation, and I'm mentally moved on 606 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: with only to cab. We did get an email from 607 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 1: somebody who said who like noted specifically that they are 608 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: named after the same person, which reminds me of like Peabody, 609 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: Massachusetts named after George Peabody. Yeah, multiple things. Yeah, like 610 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: George Peabody is probably how he said his name, but 611 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 1: we like, no, don't really know, uh, but like it's 612 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: all over the place whether people pronounce things named after 613 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: him as Peabody or Peabody. So yeah, yeah, I chuck 614 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: this one up to the Star Wars thing of it's 615 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:19,720 Speaker 1: both ad at and atat. Yeah, I don't have anything 616 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: further to add. My quick check ahead of time did 617 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: not yield the fact that they're that this was specifically 618 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: a place that says the L. Also, I will say, 619 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: and this is not to dog anyone's pronunciation, because we 620 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: all have I mean, listen, we live. I live still 621 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: in a city where the name Ponce de Leon is 622 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: Ponce de Leon. So like, this isn't I'm not I'm 623 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: not dogging anybody, and I live in Massachusetts. Who even 624 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: knows what we're doing? Right? Saying decab decalb is so 625 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 1: awkward from my mouth. Yeah, it's like we had gotten 626 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: that information correctly ahead of time. It might have been 627 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 1: a long record. It might have been a long record. 628 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: I think more likely there would have been times that 629 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: we pronounced it the way we have always pronounced it, 630 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: and then would have caught it in QA and we 631 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: would not have been able to fix it because of 632 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: our travel schedules. Yeah, because we have each been traveling 633 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: in Uh. You know, there becomes a point where it's 634 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: like I cannot record a podcast from my phone and 635 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: have it sound like the recording that was done in 636 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,399 Speaker 1: a studio. Yeah, and it would just be a gigantic mess. Yes, 637 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: uh yeah, this is these are the perils of globe trotting. 638 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: This is also reminded me. Do you remember a movie 639 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: phone that you used to be? I don't know if 640 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,240 Speaker 1: it's to be able to call and at the movie 641 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: phone the movie listings. When I was living in Atlanta, 642 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: movie phone would tell us the listings for AMC North 643 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: de Koll. But we were always like, what are you 644 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: saying it that way? Movie phone? Oh yeah. This is 645 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: one of my favorite things about GPS is how GPS 646 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,959 Speaker 1: will pronounce things that aren't aren't the way anybody would 647 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: pronounce them in any jurisdiction. So sure, thank you for 648 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: being so kind and lovely in your corrections to both 649 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: of you. I really appreciate it. If you have email 650 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: you would like to send us, you can do that 651 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: at History podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. If you haven't 652 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: subscribed yet, you can do that as easiest pie, on 653 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, or anywhere you listen to your favorite shows. 654 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,280 Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 655 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 656 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.