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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent

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Speaker 2: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,

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Speaker 2: it just means the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 2: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 3: You're saying that.

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Speaker 2: Israel needs to allow Hamas to stay there. Who's been

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Speaker 2: breaking international law? Of our conplic are twenty years.

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Speaker 4: As opposed to Hamas allowing these early government to stay

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Speaker 4: there when they're breaking international law for even longer.

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Speaker 2: Than That's not peace. Nobody wants peace. People want justice.

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Speaker 3: Oops, it's just war.

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Speaker 4: Gauz is unlivable anymore, too bad to cancelfort Palestinian life.

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Speaker 3: People are starving. Is just all an accident.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy that the numbers are so poor for a

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Speaker 2: country that could kill so many more people. They're doing

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Speaker 2: things that no other countries are in. There's a reason,

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Speaker 2: by the way, which you will never recognize, why all

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Speaker 2: of the surrounding Arab states have a Bean ined the

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Speaker 2: Palestinians too, because their history has been one of violence.

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Speaker 2: That first they've been encouraged by the surrounding nations and

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Speaker 2: used by them, and then now they've been abandoned.

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Speaker 3: What's the other nations?

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Speaker 5: Happy Friday everyone, or Thursday night if you're a premium

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Speaker 5: subscriber Breakingpoints dot Com if you want to get the

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Speaker 5: show early to your inbox. I'm Emilidrishinski, and you probably

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Speaker 5: recognize the man sitting next to me. We're about to

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Speaker 5: tee up a fascinating debate. I'm joined, of course, also

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Speaker 5: by my co host, my wonderful co host, Ryan Grimm.

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Speaker 5: And these two gentlemen that you see here are not

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Speaker 5: debating for the first time. They debated in the past.

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Speaker 5: Maybe some of you have watched that they sparred over

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Speaker 5: the question of Israel actually earlier this year and then

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Speaker 5: kind of subsequently continued a bit.

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Speaker 2: Of a back and forth.

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Speaker 5: So we know that we're not going to settle the

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Speaker 5: debate once and for all here today. But I think

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Speaker 5: what we want to do Ryan is really pushed for

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Speaker 5: more moral clarity, push for more contrast as we reflect

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Speaker 5: on just this last week of absolute historic protests, rocking

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Speaker 5: dozens of campuses across the country. So we have two

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Speaker 5: popular proponents of the respective sides here and we're excited

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Speaker 5: to get into it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and to introduce them both. We've got to my

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Speaker 1: right here, Omar bar Dharr. He is a Palestinian American

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Speaker 1: political analyst who's been following a situation in the Middle

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Speaker 1: East for many, many years. On the other side, we

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Speaker 1: have Stephen Banel Junior, who's better known by his streaming

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Speaker 1: name mister Barelli or whatever the or by like a

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Speaker 1: dozen different names from if You If you guys watched

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Speaker 1: the Norman Finkelstein debate that kind of thrust destiny as

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Speaker 1: a streaming name into this conversation to we want to

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Speaker 1: start with the campus protests before getting to the war itself.

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Speaker 1: This week saw a militarized response over at VCU U

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Speaker 1: T Austin Columbia and the kind and a vigilante response

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Speaker 1: at u C l A. Uh So, just curious for

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Speaker 1: your your read in general on these protests as they've

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Speaker 1: unfolded it. Have you seen any double standard when it

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Speaker 1: comes to kind of the free speech warriors that we've

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Speaker 1: seen championing the cause of free expression on college campuses

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Speaker 1: now championing the cause of shooting fireworks into peaceful encampments.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the double standard is incredibly glaring. I mean

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Speaker 4: you would have to put on blinders to actually miss it.

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Speaker 4: I think that these student protesters are the conscience of

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Speaker 4: this country. We are witnessing an absolutely horrific situation unfolding

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Speaker 4: on the ground, and American policy is to insist on

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Speaker 4: continuing to send endless weapons unconditionally to a military force

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Speaker 4: that is mass slaughtering children by the tens of thousands.

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Speaker 4: And these students are saying, we're taking a stand, this

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Speaker 4: is not okay. If we can't impact the policy makers directly,

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Speaker 4: We're going to make sure that our institutions and the

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Speaker 4: money that we're paying to these institutions is not playing

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Speaker 4: into this kind of mass slaughter and what we witness like,

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Speaker 4: from my perspective, in a better world, cops would be

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Speaker 4: going after the people who are violating American law to

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Speaker 4: make sure that weapons can continue slaughtering children, rather than

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Speaker 4: going after people who are peacefully protesting, overwhelmingly peacefully protesting

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Speaker 4: in order to change that policy, change American investment in it.

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Speaker 4: And you're absolutely right, you have a level of demonization

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Speaker 4: of these protesters, constantly talking about them as if you know,

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Speaker 4: it's just like anti Semitic mobs or whatever that people

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Speaker 4: leading these protests. There's very significant portion of progressive young

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Speaker 4: Jewish people who are the leaders in many cases of

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Speaker 4: some of these protests, groups from If Not Now and

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Speaker 4: Jewish Wars for Peace and many others, and they are

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Speaker 4: on the receiving end of tremendous hate and violence, and

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Speaker 4: nobody talks about that. And as you mentioned, what we're

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Speaker 4: witnessing in the UCLA is absolutely horrifying. These protesters being

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Speaker 4: attacked by you know, bear spray and fireworks and some

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Speaker 4: of them being beaten up and you see like some

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Speaker 4: serious injuries. But because the climate in this country is

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Speaker 4: one in which one side gets demonized, that empowers and

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Speaker 4: emboldens the response not just from police but also from vigilantes.

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Speaker 4: And I just want to know one last thing, just

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Speaker 4: because Steven is here and I think it's really relevant,

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Speaker 4: is there's a person that I know named Simone Zimmermann

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Speaker 4: and who.

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Speaker 2: She's intended today for an intercept of that that's right.

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Speaker 4: And she's one of the most conscientious and decent human

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Speaker 4: beings that you'll ever meet. And she knows personal people

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Speaker 4: in her life who have lost loved ones on October

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Speaker 4: seventh from the attack that Hamas carried out, and she

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Speaker 4: was horrified by that attack, and she's equally horrified by

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Speaker 4: Israel's response.

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Speaker 3: In the mass slaughter.

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Speaker 4: And she's one of those people who is fighting for

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Speaker 4: a better future for Palestinians and Israelis. And she was

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Speaker 4: at a passover cedar at Colombia, joining the protesters and

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Speaker 4: talking about how beautiful it is that she's in that setup.

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Speaker 4: And Stephen Coot tweeted that tweet and said that he

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Speaker 4: would like to donate thousands of gallons of kerosy and

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Speaker 4: presumably so these people can set themselves on fire. And

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Speaker 4: it's just such an ugly and distasteful thing to say.

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Speaker 4: And I'm genuinely curious of what you were thinking when

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Speaker 4: you tweet things like that.

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Speaker 2: If everybody celebrated Bushnell doing his protest, from more people

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Speaker 2: want to protest that way than God help him, I guess.

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Speaker 5: So this is not about Bushnell, though, But let's keep

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Speaker 5: going in response to that, because Omar set up an

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Speaker 5: interesting j justicae position here between anti Semitic mobs and

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Speaker 5: peaceful protesters. So is what we're seeing on these campuses

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Speaker 5: anti Semitic mobs or is it peaceful protesters from your perspectives.

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Speaker 2: Even from my perspective, I mean, it really depends on

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Speaker 2: which series of videos that you watch. I think from

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Speaker 2: an American perspective, it really shouldn't matter if they're anti

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Speaker 2: Semitic mobs or if they're protesting foreign policy or whatever.

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Speaker 2: The United States, we don't have hate speech laws. You

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Speaker 2: should be allowed to say really whatever you want in protest,

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Speaker 2: assuming you're not violating any social or whatever the ordinances are.

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Speaker 2: I know, like for some college campuses you're not allowed

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Speaker 2: to block pathways, or you can't protest if they've got

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Speaker 2: events planned for graduations or whatever. And as long as

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Speaker 2: they're not disrupting the piece in a way where you're like,

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Speaker 2: you can't blow loudspeakers. I think on college campuses, as

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Speaker 2: long as you're following lugs, you'll be able to protest

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Speaker 2: however you want.

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Speaker 5: But if you are, say what we saw from NYPD

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Speaker 5: and LAPD actually last night, if you're violating laws university rules,

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Speaker 5: even with an encampment, if you broke into the hall

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Speaker 5: like they did and have been barricaded up in there,

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Speaker 5: What did you make of the NYPD response? Just like

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Speaker 5: Columbia for example, I like.

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Speaker 2: To wait till the ust settles on this because I

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Speaker 2: hear so many different things about how students were all

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Speaker 2: being peaceful. I've seen obviously the videos of like some

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Speaker 2: of the stuff being broken into. I think that when

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Speaker 2: it comes to an analysis of how to respond to

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Speaker 2: these particular events, I think that the start and stop

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Speaker 2: needs to be what are the rules and regulations in place?

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Speaker 2: Because a lot of people will jump in and start arguing, well,

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Speaker 2: it's a public area, so they could be wherever they

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Speaker 2: want to do wherever they want without even understanding the

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Speaker 2: rules or regulations in place. I think as a blanket rule.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why this particular situation would need any

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Speaker 2: kind of unique analysis. It would be the same as

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Speaker 2: all protests. If you're in a private college, I understanding

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Speaker 2: that they can remove you whenever they want. It's private property.

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Speaker 2: If you're in a state funded or public university, then

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Speaker 2: there are certain areas that are supposed to remain open

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Speaker 2: to the public and they can't remove you unless you

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Speaker 2: are not there in an ordinary manner. If you're disrupting

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Speaker 2: some of their event. I don't say anything about these

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Speaker 2: particulars at a protest that would call for any type

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Speaker 2: of unique analysis that escapes like that fundamental rule to

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Speaker 2: protests in the United States in.

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Speaker 5: Your fundamental rule, then, to quote tweet with.

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Speaker 2: The Kerosene, I thought it was insane that you had

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Speaker 2: delusional people, especially young children in the United States, that

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Speaker 2: don't know any part of this conflict whatsoever, which is

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Speaker 2: probably the vast majority of people protesting it. That people

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Speaker 2: are celebrating people setting themselves on fire, that is just

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Speaker 2: unbelievable to me. You saw a guy do it in

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Speaker 2: front of a I think one of the New York

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Speaker 2: City courthouses for the Trump stuff. You saw the Aaron

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Speaker 2: Bushnell guide do it for who knows what reason, I

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Speaker 2: guess because you thought the whole world wasn't already paying

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Speaker 2: attention to this issue. And yeah, the idea of people

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Speaker 2: ever celebrating themselves in a democratic first world country setting

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Speaker 2: themselves on fire for an issue that already has an

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Speaker 2: unlimited amount of international attention unbelievably stupid to me.

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Speaker 4: But how does it relate to this particular instance. I mean,

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Speaker 4: this is a bunch of Jewish students celebrating with pro

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Speaker 4: Palestinian students Overpassover and talking about a climate in which

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Speaker 4: they're coming together, Like why did you decide to drag

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Speaker 4: the Bushnell thing into this?

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Speaker 2: That's the one I think it's funny when people disingenuously

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Speaker 2: load phrases like, oh, all the Jewish people are protesting

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Speaker 2: with these people, there are so many jewishroople. That's not true.

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Speaker 2: The last few research things I saw I think We're

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three shows like ninety percent of people who

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Speaker 2: are Jewish support the existence of Israel. So the idea

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Speaker 2: that there's a huge group of Israel.

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Speaker 4: All over the Jewish people, Yeah, this is not about

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Speaker 4: the existence of Israel. There's no question about the fact

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Speaker 4: that so many of these protests leader are in fact Jewish.

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Speaker 4: These groups, they're not imaginary, They're not a figment of

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Speaker 4: your imagination. You can actually go see them and look

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Speaker 4: at how large their gatherings are, how lot of their

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Speaker 4: voices have been That people who are getting arrested in Congress,

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Speaker 4: so many of them are progressive Jewish organizations that are

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Speaker 4: leading this effort. This is not about some broader what

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Speaker 4: are the views of American Jews about the existence of Israel.

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Speaker 2: We're just what now we're protests about.

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Speaker 4: The protests are about ending the slaughter of the children

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Speaker 4: of Gaza. That's what the protests are about. What do

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Speaker 4: you mean, what does it look like?

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Speaker 2: What is the end condition of the It's not just

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Speaker 2: ending the slaughter, it's also stopping the blockade. It's also

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Speaker 2: reaching a just resolution to the Palestadian conflict. It's also

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Speaker 2: probably the unlimited right of return of six million refugees.

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Speaker 2: It's probably the dissolution of Israel as a Jewish majority state.

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Speaker 2: It's probably the create like I mean.

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Speaker 4: You're conflating a ton of different things. A lot of

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Speaker 4: these protesters have varying views about this. Some of them

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Speaker 4: support a two state solutions, some of them support a

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Speaker 4: one state solution. But what's bringing everybody together in this

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Speaker 4: moment is a realization that what Israel is doing to

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Speaker 4: Gaza is absolutely unconfortable. That you slaughter people at that scale,

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Speaker 4: that is is is clearly waging a war on the

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Speaker 4: civilian population of Gaza. That's what these people are upset about,

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Speaker 4: and they want it to come to an end and.

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Speaker 1: The specific thing that they're protesting and maybe, well, we

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Speaker 1: could actually find something to agree on here because I've

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Speaker 1: seen you describe yourself as kind of a moderate who

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Speaker 1: tries to balance the extremists on each side here. So

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Speaker 1: the specific thing the protesters are arguing for all of

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Speaker 1: these different campuses is opening up the books of their

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Speaker 1: basically the hedge funds that run their universities, and divesting

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Speaker 1: from firms that are either linked to the war in

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Speaker 1: Gaza or link to Israel. More generally, Brown University reach

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Speaker 1: an agreement with its protesters that they would they would

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Speaker 1: abandon their encampment in exchange for a vote in October

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Speaker 1: to divest from that. That gets to the question of

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Speaker 1: resistance and the right to resistance, And so for years

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Speaker 1: it has been the kind of policy of the right

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Speaker 1: here and a lot of the center here in the

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Speaker 1: United States to make it illegal to try to ban

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Speaker 1: people from participating in boycotts or divestment efforts or lobbying

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Speaker 1: for sanctions against Israel. At the same time, you say, well,

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Speaker 1: armed resistance is clearly off off the table. So if

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Speaker 1: you rule out both, you'd only leave people with one option.

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Speaker 1: So even if you don't support boycotting or divesting from Israel,

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Speaker 1: do you support the right of people here in the

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Speaker 1: United States?

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Speaker 2: To to check right explicit for how states have banned

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Speaker 2: some of the BDS participation. As a fundamental right to boycott,

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Speaker 2: I think in the United States you should always have

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Speaker 2: the right to boycott everything except for our currency. I think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you have the right to boycott whatever you want. I

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Speaker 2: don't know why that should ever be made illegal, but

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Speaker 2: I know that in particular things are we going at

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Speaker 2: that BDS stuff that I think states look at. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: of course you should always have the right. I wish

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Speaker 2: that the people that would talk about conditioning support for Israel, though,

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Speaker 2: would also talk about conditioning support for Palestine, because there

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Speaker 2: are some of the highest recipients of aid in the

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Speaker 2: world per capita, the United States trip it's a lot

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Speaker 2: of that aid. It's interesting to me that it seems

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Speaker 2: like we're always talking about how we need to condition

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Speaker 2: aid in congratulations, Congress just banned all funding of ENRA.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I have seen that.

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Speaker 5: Well so actually, because Stephen raised an interesting point that

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Speaker 5: what's the kind of end goal of the protesters after

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Speaker 5: BDS in the service of what you know, what does.

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Speaker 2: That look like to one state solution where Jews of

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Speaker 2: the minority.

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Speaker 5: Well, so you said earlier that you know, it's it

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Speaker 5: sort of depends on whatever video you're looking at, that

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Speaker 5: this is an anti semitic mob or peaceful protesters, And

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Speaker 5: I think that's actually true. There's videos showing all kinds

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Speaker 5: of different things, which is part of the issue of

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Speaker 5: piecing together these stories via social media. So if that,

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Speaker 5: if the one state solution is kind of the ultimate

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Speaker 5: goal of the people that are protesting for BDS, what

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Speaker 5: is your like do you think they're fundamentally anti Semitic?

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Speaker 5: Do you think they're fundamentally Are they, from your perspective,

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Speaker 5: just mistaken, misguided, or are they bigoted?

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Speaker 2: I don't care. Trying to start out, like the difference

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Speaker 2: between like anti semitism and anti zi is almost impossible,

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Speaker 2: and in practice the two look almost identical sometimes, so

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Speaker 2: the obsession of trying to figure out, like, what is

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Speaker 2: the driving thing here between anti semitism versus anti Zionism,

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Speaker 2: I think in some cases it's good to find differences.

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Speaker 2: So some people are discriminatory against poor people, some people

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Speaker 2: are discriminatory against certain races of people, and figuring out

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Speaker 2: the difference here is really important when it comes to

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Speaker 2: antisemitism versus anti Zionism. In regards to israel I think

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Speaker 2: that the talking points of somebody who's an anti Zionists

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Speaker 2: are indistinguishable from the talking points of somebody who is

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Speaker 2: anti Semitics. So there are a lot.

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Speaker 5: Of Israelis who don't support the net Yahoo policy.

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Speaker 2: That's but that's not anti Zionism such that they want

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Speaker 2: a one state solution. Even Palestinians don't want a one

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Speaker 2: state solution.

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Speaker 4: It's utterly grotesque to conflate those two things. Opposition to

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Speaker 4: Zionism is opposition to the state of Israel the way

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Speaker 4: it came into being at the expense of hundreds of

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Speaker 4: thousands of Palestinians who were driven out of their homes.

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Speaker 4: And there is a different vision that instead of having

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Speaker 4: a Jewish state that privilegius one particular group of people

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Speaker 4: over another, that you have a vision for a state

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Speaker 4: in which everybody is equal. Americans would be familiar with

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Speaker 4: what that vision actually looks like. You remember the era

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Speaker 4: of Jim Crow and what that meant. And people who

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Speaker 4: are demanding a different kind of country in which everybody

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Speaker 4: is equal. That's not the same as being anti white.

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Speaker 4: It's absurd to even put these remotely in the same category.

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Speaker 4: And can I just just if I can finish just

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Speaker 4: on the point of BDS, BDS, also, by the way,

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Speaker 4: has been clear about the fact that they don't take

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Speaker 4: any particular political solution. It does certainly happen that a

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Speaker 4: lot of BDS activists do support a one state solution,

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Speaker 4: but that is not the position of BDS itself as

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Speaker 4: a movement that is calling for boycotts in isolation. And

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Speaker 4: just on the free speech angle, you have states all

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Speaker 4: over the country that are passing laws that basically make

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Speaker 4: it punishable to boycott not just Israel, but Israeli settlements

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Speaker 4: that are built in the occupied territories, and those settlements

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Speaker 4: are war crimes under international law. And so you have

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Speaker 4: a situation in which this country, part of its founding,

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Speaker 4: is that we celebrate boycotts of you know, as part

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Speaker 4: of deep entrenched part of American culture, the boycott of

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Speaker 4: British treat during the founding of the country, the Montgomery

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Speaker 4: bus boycott during the Civil rights movement. And now you're

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Speaker 4: saying that boycotting the war crimes of a foreign country

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Speaker 4: is somehow punishable. People being denied the ability to work

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Speaker 4: with state governments or schools or medical facilities or anything

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Speaker 4: that is affiliated with the state. Those are transparently unconstitutional laws.

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Speaker 4: They have been challenged by organizations like the ACLU, They

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Speaker 4: have been defeated in court in many cases, but unfortunately

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Speaker 4: they keep popping up faster than the rate at which

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Speaker 4: you can challenge them.

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Speaker 3: And that's a serious crisis.

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Speaker 4: Anybody who's serious about being committed to free speech and

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Speaker 4: saying that Americans should be able to exercise the right

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Speaker 4: to boycott, including when it comes to Israel or Israel's atrocities,

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Speaker 4: that's an absolutely critical issue that we're not talking enough about.

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Speaker 4: That you have the power of the state being used

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Speaker 4: to silence people's right to free speech.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's a really important angle.

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Speaker 1: I want to move to the conduct of the war

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Speaker 1: by Israel pretty soon. But and the one state verse

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Speaker 1: two state question, isn't it the case that the current

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Speaker 1: Israeli government position is one state? There's a complete rejection

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Speaker 1: across the board of a Palestinian state river to the sea.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I think the Lakud platform is essentially always

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Speaker 2: said as much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So okay, so a more agreement like you're you're

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Speaker 1: you oppose that, you think that why I oppose it?

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Speaker 2: He's in favor of the one state where the Jews

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Speaker 2: live as a minority in that state. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: No, Just to be clear, Theaho government and the liqud

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Speaker 4: are in favor of a one state in which Jews

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Speaker 4: are privileged over Palestinians, with Palestinians occupying multi tiers. If

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Speaker 4: you're a citizen of Israel, have a certain amount of rights.

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Speaker 4: If you're in the West Bank, you get this many rights.

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Speaker 4: And if you're in Gaza, you're completely under siege and

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Speaker 4: there's nothing that you can do, which is in my

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Speaker 4: country country, my vision of a one state, they have

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Speaker 4: more rights than Yeah. Well, in those countries, you don't

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Speaker 4: permanently occupy those people and prevent them from having any

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Speaker 4: rights and deny them citizenship as well. And that's the

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Speaker 4: fundamental problem is that Israel's vision is Palestinians can never

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Speaker 4: be free, they can get their own state, and they

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Speaker 4: can't live as equals within Israel. So your status is

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Speaker 4: just to be permanently occupied and helpless without rights. And

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Speaker 4: that's a vision that I think is absolutely nobody who

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Speaker 4: has a conscience can actually support. And my vision of

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Speaker 4: a one state would be one in which everybody actually

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Speaker 4: has equal rights and everybody can live equally precisely the

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Speaker 4: way that we live in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Which is a really fun position to take in the

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Speaker 2: West when we have like no stake in the game.

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Speaker 2: I think it's fun to scream that at protest. I

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Speaker 2: think it's fun to go on Twitter and do that.

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Speaker 2: I think at the end of the day, that type

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Speaker 2: of rhetoric is ultimately destructive to Palestinians because everybody knows

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Speaker 2: that that's never happening. It's a pipe dream. Less than

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Speaker 2: thirty percent of Palestinians are in favor of a singular

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Speaker 2: state where Jews and Arabs have the exact same rights. Literally,

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Speaker 2: nobody wants that. People in Israel don't want that. It's

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Speaker 2: literally you're just virtue signaling and paying lip service to

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Speaker 2: an idea that is grossly unpopular across the entirety of

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Speaker 2: Israel and Palestine. Not only that, the idea that you

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Speaker 2: would have a singular state created where six million Palestinian

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Speaker 2: refugees are then brought back into the state. There's no

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Speaker 2: shot that any Jewish person living there, who has lived

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Speaker 2: through the second in Nevada, who has lived through Hamas attacks,

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Speaker 2: who's lived through hasib law attacks, who's lived through international

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Speaker 2: support for who the attacks, is going to feel safe

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Speaker 2: in such a state and they know that there would

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Speaker 2: be absolutely no intern national support for them if that

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Speaker 2: state were created. And Jews want to start getting slaughtered

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Speaker 2: en mass there, let's.

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Speaker 5: Past it to Omar with that for a response. And

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Speaker 5: also I'll sort of add to that, maybe they narrow

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Speaker 5: it down a little bit. What is then let's say,

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Speaker 5: you know, hypothetically, would take the best faith argument not

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Speaker 5: from net Yahoo, but let's say Israeli citizen who's both

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Speaker 5: concerned about their safety and concerned about net Yahu's leadership.

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Speaker 5: What does the path towards peace from the perspective of

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Speaker 5: an Israeli what does that look like when they see

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Speaker 5: the level of support for Hamas. And we can obviously

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Speaker 5: get into why so many people in Palestine feel like

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Speaker 5: they need to support Hamas.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and a way you're putting your finger on the

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Speaker 4: problem precisely. I mean, Israel is upset that there's so

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Speaker 4: much hostility towards them. But the reason there's so much

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Speaker 4: hostility is because of the way that they have been

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Speaker 4: treated Palestinians for a decade. After a decade, just the

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Speaker 4: level of brutality that Palestinians have experienced under occupation has

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Speaker 4: been absolutely horrific.

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Speaker 3: And you know, when you talk about the.

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Speaker 4: Prospects for peace, there was a time in which Palestinians

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Speaker 4: recognized that they there's a significant power deferential that they

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Speaker 4: can't actually get freedom from the river to the sea

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Speaker 4: in their own homeland, and there was an indulgence of

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Speaker 4: the idea that maybe we can have a two state

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Speaker 4: compromise in which Palestinians would only get the West Bank,

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Speaker 4: Gaza and East Jerusalem, which is about one fifth of

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Speaker 4: the entire territory of their historic homeland, and Israel gets

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Speaker 4: to keep the other four fifths. That from Palastinian's perspective,

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Speaker 4: is a massive Palaestinian compromise bending over backwards to facilitate

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Speaker 4: some kind of two states. And all what Israel was

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Speaker 4: required to do is not grant Palestinian some sort of favor,

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Speaker 4: but simply comply with international law by withdrawing from the

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Speaker 4: occupied territories that are obligated to do that. Anyway, the

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Speaker 4: occupied territories do not belong to Israel. And during this period,

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Speaker 4: Palaestinian support for peace with Israel was skyrocketed. Public opinion

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Speaker 4: show that their significant support for a two state.

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Speaker 3: Solution amass way down. Even though Hamas was trying to

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Speaker 3: destabilize the situation at the time committing acts of violence,

436
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 3: they did not enjoy any support among Palestinians. It is

437
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:56,840
Speaker 3: only when it became.

438
00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,639
Speaker 4: Clear that Israel has no interest whatsoever and allowing Palestinians

439
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,840
Speaker 4: to have a state and spent the entire so called

440
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 4: peace process building more and more and more settlements, just

441
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,360
Speaker 4: expanding them throughout the occupied Palestinian territories, where Palestinians saw

442
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,920
Speaker 4: the prospect for a Palestinian state shrinking by the day.

443
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,879
Speaker 4: On the ground, they understood that this entire process was

444
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 4: a sham, and the fact that Israeli restrictions were increasing,

445
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,399
Speaker 4: Israeli violence was ongoing, it became clear that this was

446
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 4: not going to be a path to in which Palestinians

447
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 4: can get a real state. And that's when you got

448
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 4: the shift in public opinion back in terms of supporting

449
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,200
Speaker 4: for armed resistance as the only way, because clearly Israel

450
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 4: could not be talked into seeing Palestinians as equal human

451
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:34,840
Speaker 4: beings and granting them.

452
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:36,879
Speaker 1: But then what now, Well, a shorter version maybe for

453
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 1: Stephen to respond to is that the way to defeat

454
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:40,920
Speaker 1: Hamas is through peace, not war.

455
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 2: What's wrong with that? It sounds really brutal, But the

456
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,240
Speaker 2: issue is that the unlimited amount of international support for

457
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 2: the Palestinians means that the Palestinians will never look to peace.

458
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 2: They shouldn't. They always have an unlimited reservoir internationally of

459
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,439
Speaker 2: people who will encourage the delusions that if they continue

460
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:56,960
Speaker 2: to fight, they're going to get a better deal. It's

461
00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,400
Speaker 2: the reason why they walked away in two thousand from

462
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 2: Camp David, is the reason why they walked away from

463
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:03,120
Speaker 2: the tap of Summit. Is the reason why a boss

464
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 2: walked away in two thousand and eight from O Mert.

465
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,439
Speaker 2: It is the reason why the Oslo Courts were never

466
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,399
Speaker 2: negotiated in ninety three. That period of violence that he's

467
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,399
Speaker 2: talking about from ninety three to two thousand, where the

468
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,640
Speaker 2: Israelis were continuing to expand settleents into the West Bank,

469
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 2: is true. But Palestinians also continue to engage in terrorist activities.

470
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 2: A lot of people didn't trust Arafat because Arafat would

471
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 2: sign on to a deal for the Oslo Courts and

472
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,120
Speaker 2: then we'd go over to Switzerland and he'd make speeches

473
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,320
Speaker 2: in universities about how like, yeah, we're good to this now,

474
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:25,719
Speaker 2: but you know we're going to get them as as

475
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,040
Speaker 2: soon as we got a little bit, we're going to

476
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 2: take more, which is ironically what they've accused is real

477
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,880
Speaker 2: of doing for the past one hundred years. I think

478
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 2: that in order for this conflict to actually start to

479
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 2: reach some kind of resolution, I think that, again, it

480
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 2: sounds mean, but Palestinians need to feel like they have

481
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 2: something at stake, and it looks like they do. But

482
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 2: in reality, politically, Palestinians have never lost anything because people

483
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 2: continue to make them feel as though they can always

484
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 2: go back to borders that existed eighty years ago. People

485
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 2: will constantly say, you just said it here, Well, what's

486
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 2: the fair thing? They only want to a sliver of

487
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 2: this land, one fifth of the territory. Yeah, they tried

488
00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,680
Speaker 2: like three, four or five different wars to get more

489
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 2: and they lost. You can't continue to go back to

490
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 2: the first try over and over and over again and

491
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 2: demand the deal that was on the table before you

492
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: walked away from the partition plan in forty seven. You

493
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 2: can't go to war five times and then keep going

494
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 2: back to another set of borders. There are always one generation

495
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,879
Speaker 2: behind when it comes to accepting some type of actual

496
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 2: peace deal. So as long as Palestinians have people like

497
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,160
Speaker 2: Ohmar internationally that will support them in an unlimited delusion

498
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 2: to fight forever, plistiness will never try to accept these

499
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 2: and they shouldn't. They really should. There's no reason to.

500
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 5: In one sense, if you have public polling that shows

501
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 5: some seventy percent this was from a Palestinian polling firm

502
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,639
Speaker 5: in December, seventy two percent supported what happened on October seventh.

503
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 5: So and we can talk about why, and we will,

504
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 5: I'm sure. So with all of that said, what now,

505
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,160
Speaker 5: what if you you know, if you were in charge

506
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 5: of Israeli foreign policy in a hypothetical sense, And I

507
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 5: think this will be a response to what Stephen just said,

508
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 5: what happens now to get to a position where, to

509
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 5: your point, there can be justice.

510
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 4: I'm happy to address that, but it just I have

511
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 4: to go back to a particular point. The idea that

512
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 4: Palestinians are rejectionist because they have so much international support,

513
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 4: I think is just thoroughly absurd. Palestinians are paying an

514
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 4: unbelievable cost every single day their lives are completely brutalized

515
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 4: under occupation, and the idea that they see no cost

516
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 4: of continuing to fighting on forever.

517
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 3: It's just completely ridiculous. It's detached from reality.

518
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 4: It's as if you're unaware of what Palatine conditions are

519
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 4: under Israeli occupation, the reason why they were willing to

520
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,360
Speaker 4: bend over backwards. I mean, if you look at the

521
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 4: history of negotiations, you look at the Palestine papers that

522
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 4: got leaked shortly after I think back in the mid

523
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 4: two thousands, it's obvious that Palestinians were bending over backwards

524
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 4: to try to make that deal work, and Israel insisted

525
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,479
Speaker 4: on expanding more and more settlements. And yes, you can

526
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 4: say that Palestinian violence was ongoing at the time, but

527
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 4: so is Israeli violence. I mean the attack that happened

528
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 4: on the mosque in Hebron where thirty Palestinians, nearly thirty

529
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 4: Palaestinis were killed by a Jewish terrorist named Baru Goldstein.

530
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 4: That happened during the so called peace process, and Israel

531
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 4: responded by putting Palestinians in Hebron under curfew to prevent

532
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 4: any possible retaliation. Those are theitions, but nobody looks at

533
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 4: that incident and says, oh, well, there was Israeli violence,

534
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 4: Therefore the Israelis, you know, we're not.

535
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 3: That's the reason why the.

536
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 2: Point I'm making.

537
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 4: The point i'm making is that this is besides the

538
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 4: point that, yes, we can point to individual atrocities, and

539
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 4: that does not change the fact that throughout the peace process,

540
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 4: if Israel were genuinely interested in allowing for a Palestinian

541
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 4: state to exist, they would not have spent the entire

542
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 4: soul called.

543
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 3: Peace process taking up more and more and more of

544
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 3: the West BacT. So it's the disingenuous.

545
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 4: Nature of of of of Israeli policy that that's the

546
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 4: reason why this is a problem.

547
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 3: Now to your point of what now.

548
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 5: Going to say they are genuinely interested in the peace

549
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 5: process and you're you're.

550
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 3: In charge, Yeah, so what do they do right now?

551
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 4: We have a situation right there is a problem of

552
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 4: the fact that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians support groups

553
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 4: like Hamas. You have a majority of people in Israel,

554
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 4: overwhelming majority support the most vicious policies of the Nathaniaho

555
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 4: government and just carrying on, and they think that they're

556
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 4: not going far enough in Gaza and so on, and

557
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 4: that just it's it's important to note that hatred is

558
00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 4: a symptom.

559
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 3: Of the conflict and not the cause of it. People

560
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 3: get this stuff backwards.

561
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 4: When you think of apartheid in South Africa, there was

562
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,719
Speaker 4: plenty of hostility and we eventually had a reconciliation process

563
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 4: between white and black people in South Africa, but only

564
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 4: after apartheid fell. That's when you can have reconciliation. But

565
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,479
Speaker 4: the idea that you can try to work on how

566
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 4: people feel about each other in the midst of one

567
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 4: side occupying the other, controlling every aspect of their lives

568
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 4: and brutalizing them day in and day out.

569
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 3: There's no surprise that there are hostile feelings. And yes,

570
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 3: when Palestinians do respond with violence, Israelis who are out

571
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 3: of touch with the reasons why all of this is happening,

572
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 3: are going to develop hostile feelings as well.

573
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 4: This is a moment in which the international community has

574
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 4: to step in. This is not about making Israelis and

575
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 4: Palestinians like each other right now. This is about making

576
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 4: sure that one side does not get to dominate the

577
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 4: other until the end of time and the status quo

578
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 4: leading up to October seventh is one in which Israel

579
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 4: dominated every aspect of Palestinian life. So you can say, yes,

580
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 4: both sides hate each other, but one side is in

581
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 4: charge of everything. One side gets to decide whether they

582
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 4: want to put the people of Gaza on a diet,

583
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 4: as they were talking about, you know, when they first

584
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 4: imposed the siege on Gaza. Just Palestinians don't get to

585
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 4: decide how much fruit Israelis get. They don't get to

586
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 4: demolish Israeli homes will whenever they feel like it. They

587
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 4: don't get to humiliate Israelis a checkpoints day in and

588
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 4: day out. So because there's a dynamic in which one

589
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 4: side is imposing an illegal occupation over another people and

590
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 4: taking over their land, that has to come to an end,

591
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 4: and you can bring it to an end through international pressure,

592
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 4: primarily from the United States as the country that has

593
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 4: the most leverage over Israel, to say not another penny

594
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 4: until that occupation ends. And when that occupation comes to

595
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 4: an end, we can talk about sorting out the exact

596
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 4: specifics of how we get more conciliation and.

597
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 3: Cooperation between Palestinians and Israelis.

598
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: And when it comes to international support for Palestinians. There's

599
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: one side that has had the international support of the

600
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: world's great superpower and right the political and military support

601
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: as well Israel.

602
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:54,360
Speaker 2: What about the Soviet Unius supporting the Soviet Union has

603
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 2: had a very complicated relationship unions states before the United

604
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: States and truly also Aroun until about sixty six sixteen.

605
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 1: Some union also hasn't been here since nineteen ninety.

606
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: But the conflict also didn't start after the ninety one,

607
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 2: after the collapse of the Sovietnion.

608
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,479
Speaker 1: But the point is that Israel has had a lot

609
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 1: of agency, and Benjamin Netyaho in particular, as you know,

610
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: the Prime minister for most of the last what twenty

611
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: five thirty years, has had an extraordinary amount of agency

612
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: as well. And I wanted to read to you a

613
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: piece of an essay published in how Retz recently by

614
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: Israeli historian Yuval Noah Hararia. He writes, given the murderous

615
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 1: nature of Hamas this time, its allies gave Israel free

616
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: reign for many months to conquer Gaza, liberate the Israeli hostages,

617
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 1: changed the situation in the Strip according to Israel's best judgment,

618
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: and create a new order in the region. The netn

619
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: Yahoo government wasted this historic opportunity and also wasted the

620
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: bravery and dedication of the soldiers of the IDF. The

621
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: net Yahoo government failed to exploit its battlefield victories to

622
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: reach an agreement on the release of all the hostages

623
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: and to advance an alternative political order in Gaza. Instead,

624
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: it decided to knowingly inflict on Gaza an unnecessary humanitarian disaster,

625
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: and in so doing inflicted on Israel an unnecessary political disaster.

626
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: One by one, our allies have become horrified by what

627
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 1: is happening in Gaza, and one by one they are

628
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: calling for an immediate ceasefire and even for a weapons

629
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 1: embargo on Israel. Even during the worst moments of October seventh,

630
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: Hamas was nowhere near vanquishing Israel. But the ruinous policy

631
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 1: of the net Yahoo government following October seventh has placed

632
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: Israel in existential danger. So, when I ask you, it

633
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: seems like a pretty fundamental irony that if Israel had

634
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: listened to critics like Omar and myself after October seventh,

635
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: who warned against enacting violence just for the purposes of

636
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: revenge and potentially for ethnic cleansing, of Gaza, they would ironically,

637
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: in paradoxly be in a much stronger global strategic political

638
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: position than they are now where they're facing not just isolation,

639
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: but charges before the ICJ and potentially before the ICC.

640
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: So are they making a mistake and following kind of

641
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: the more bellicose advice that they're getting from their so

642
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: called allies.

643
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: That's a touching essay. Who was the alternative order politically

644
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: besides Hamas that would have risen up in the Gaza Strip.

645
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 2: If there was an alternative political order, I would love

646
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 2: to hear it. Even in the West Bank. There's a

647
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 2: reason why a boss suspended elections twenty years ago. Even

648
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: in the West Bank, Hamas enjoys pretty broad support. I

649
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: mean their answers to this question, and it's not rhetorical.

650
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 3: Do you want to take that?

651
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: I mean, well, hold on, wait wait, But before he

652
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: does it, also to elaborate a bit on the military objectives,

653
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: I think Hamas needs to go. I don't think that

654
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: there's any future that happens where Israel can negotiate anything,

655
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: whether it's peace or war, with Hamas remaining as the

656
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 2: government in the Gaza Strip. I don't think any of

657
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 2: the surrounding Arab states wanted Hamas to remain as the

658
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: government in the Gaza strip. It's a disaster. You've had

659
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: a series of conflicts. In two thousand and eight you

660
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: had kind of led, twenty fourteen you had Protective Edge,

661
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen you had the response to the Great March

662
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 2: of Return, and now in twenty twenty three you had

663
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 2: a massive attack on October seventh. The idea that you

664
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 2: would just allow them to stay here after spending at

665
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 2: least a year preparing for what was probably I think

666
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: the single largest day of violence against Jesus the Holocaust,

667
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 2: it would be that's an untenable position. I don't think

668
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 2: a single other country, a person in all of the

669
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: history would be asked to keep a government like that

670
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: in play.

671
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: Well, we paused for one second on the quote response

672
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: to the Great March of Return. For people who don't know,

673
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: the Great March of Return was a civil society led

674
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: Gaza initiative that was a nonviolent demonstration where every Friday,

675
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: people would meet and kind of march to the fence,

676
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: you know, symbolically gazing out at land that had been

677
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,719
Speaker 1: that they had lost over the years. The idea of

678
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: responded by killing a pretty significant amount of Palestinians, but

679
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: also maiming tens of thousands, to the point where.

680
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: The UN.

681
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: The UN put out a report noting that it had

682
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: become commonplace to see people walking around with one leg

683
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: missing a leg missing an arm. There were IDF soldiers

684
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: who said we were told shoot out the legs.

685
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 3: You know.

686
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: One guy said he hit like forty plus legs in

687
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: a single day. Hamas opposed this at the start because

688
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: it was nonviolent, because it was civil society led. Hamas

689
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: eventually caved under public pressure and ended up supporting the

690
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: Great March Return, which I think goes to your question,

691
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: what is the political order that can replace Hamas. If

692
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: there is a non violent movement that can gain traction,

693
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: then Hamas is defeated by that. Hamas is pressured into

694
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: supporting that just by the kind of public support for it,

695
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: like happened with the Great March Return. The Israeli response

696
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: was not to say, Wow, let's embrace this non violent,

697
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: civil society led movement and marginalize Hamas and reach a

698
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: deal with this Palestinian force that could even see a

699
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: unification between the West Bank and Gaza toward a long

700
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: term peaceful solution. It was let's annihilate this, let's shoot

701
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: and kill and maim the peaceful protesters, which only then

702
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,719
Speaker 1: fortifies Hamasa's position and allows them to say that we

703
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: were right all along. We told you you can't deal

704
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: with Israel, we warned you against this, that violence is

705
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: the only way forward.

706
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: That's a fantastic retelling that is almost entirely fictional. For

707
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: the great margin return, it did start off as a

708
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: generally peaceful protest. The idea behind the March of Return

709
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 2: was returning to Israel. The UN has released a report

710
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 2: where they've gone over a lot of the shootings. It's

711
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: very curious that if you actually read the entire report,

712
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 2: you'll notice that almost every single shooting happens between fifty

713
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: to one hundred meters in range, Which is curious. Why

714
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 2: would if these are because I was told I believe

715
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: by I think Finkelstein himself said, or might have been Raboni,

716
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: that this was a cracked team of Israeli snipers. What

717
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 2: apparently their rifles only worked up two hundred meters. The

718
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 2: reason why just lazy, or maybe the why because there

719
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: is a no go zone between the fence and one

720
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: hundred meters because when people get too close, people try

721
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 2: to cut the fence open, people try to break through,

722
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: which is what was happening towards the end of the

723
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 2: no choice but to shoot all those unarmed people. It

724
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 2: doesn't matter if you're armed or unarmed, if you're approaching

725
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: an area that you're not supposed to be in. And

726
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 2: then when people start to try to break into the

727
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: breakthrough the fence, that's the rules of the border. You

728
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: try to cross any militarized border, you're probably going to

729
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: get shot at. Also, towards the end of the Great

730
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 2: Marshal Return, there were people that were throwing stones, that

731
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: were sending over incendiary balloons that were causing like fires

732
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,719
Speaker 2: to spread on the other side of the fence. All

733
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: this is documented even by the UN and that was

734
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 2: when the majority of the firing from the Israeli police happened.

735
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 2: If you want to say that they shouldn't be shooting

736
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 2: at people who were close to the fence because you

737
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 2: don't like that policy or whatever, that's fine, But characterizing

738
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 2: that is like just open firing into a bunch of

739
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: innocent people that are standing there with the goal of

740
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: just maiming people. For no reason is the most unbelievable

741
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: retelling of what happened. Now, it's the end of that event,

742
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: that's exactly what happened.

743
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 4: Actually, just to characterize it, just you know, get an

744
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 4: even more complete picture. Israeli policy is people in Gaza

745
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 4: have no right to go in a out of the

746
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 4: cage that they've been placed into, their complete siege, their

747
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 4: economies and shambles, because Israel does not allow them to

748
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 4: trade with the outside world.

749
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 3: They can't have an airport.

750
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 4: Because Israel doesn't feel like they are entitled to an airport,

751
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 4: can't have a seaport. You know, when you look at

752
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,359
Speaker 4: the rates of unemployment over fifty percent in Gaza at

753
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 4: the time, And if those people who are trapped in

754
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 4: this cage come a little too close to the border,

755
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 4: then we open fire at them and kill them, even

756
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 4: when they're unarmed, because that's border policy.

757
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 3: If this is.

758
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: Something that more than If this is something it's more

759
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: than six thousand, according to the un quote unquote more

760
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,760
Speaker 1: than six thousand unarmed demonstrators were shot by military snipers

761
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 1: week after week at the protest sites and the separation fence.

762
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 3: There's no denying that.

763
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 4: Yes, some people try to open up, and some people

764
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 4: sent insidiary balloons over the border and so on. But

765
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:42,439
Speaker 4: by and large, when you look at the cases, human

766
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 4: rights organizations have been clear about the fact that people

767
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 4: were targeted when they posed absolutely no threat to Israeli soldiers.

768
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 4: So Israeli soldiers opened fire on people and targeted specifically

769
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 4: journalists and children. That is, and people are.

770
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: Game that's being played when we say posed no threat

771
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 2: to Israeli soldiers. There was one U and Rep that

772
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 2: came out that analyzed it that claimed that every single

773
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 2: shooting except for one was unjustified. But the way that

774
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: they got that is they didn't analyze that as an

775
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: armed conflict. They analyzed that as a policing event. And

776
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 2: when you analyze things internationally as a policing event, typically

777
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: police aren't allowed shootor kill anybody unless they pose a

778
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: direct threat to the individual who Why would be analyzed

779
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 2: as an armed conflict if one side wasn't dark because

780
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 2: Hamas was present, it doesn't matter if they were shooting

781
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: if you've got an enemy. If you've got an enemy

782
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 2: military that is present amongst people that are perform that

783
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: are there was no AMAS is considered oppositional force and

784
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 2: if you've got people that are participating, if.

785
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 4: You don't have guns not, of course, nothing to do

786
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 4: clear about the fact that the situation. You can only

787
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 4: kill combatants if they're in combat and they're armed. You

788
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 4: can't somebody.

789
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you do not become oystered combat You do not.

790
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 3: You're not.

791
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:49,760
Speaker 2: Do you not all of a sudden gain the protections

792
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 2: of a civilian if you're an enemy combatant without a gun.

793
00:35:53,400 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 4: If you have to absolute film Google, yes, let's let's

794
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 4: do that.

795
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 3: Just to go back to a point that you made

796
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,439
Speaker 3: earlier about sort of, I just want.

797
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 2: To just so you're saying that, like if there's a

798
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: military and you're finding the enemy and you guys, if

799
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: you just drop your guns, you can just like run

800
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:11,479
Speaker 2: back and nobody can.

801
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 3: If you drop your guns and raise your arms.

802
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 2: You can't know that surrendering. That's different than running away.

803
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 2: You can't drop your guns and just run away, and

804
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 2: you can't get shock because you know, fire off.

805
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 3: If you're a military threat at the time, it's a

806
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 3: military engagement.

807
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 2: That is absolutely not true.

808
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 3: Okay, I just.

809
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: You have a control room look stuff, But you're wrong.

810
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 3: That's that's that's a level of detail.

811
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 4: Again, you start like playing up imaginal scenarios of somebody

812
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 4: shooting at you.

813
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:35,720
Speaker 3: And then dropping their gun and turning around.

814
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 2: But that's what your rule would lead to. We have

815
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: to be able to analyze like this is the problem

816
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 2: acknowledge like the basic reality conflict.

817
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 5: This brings up a really fundamental reality actually, because Omar

818
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 5: was talking about airports and the seaparts ports, and I

819
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 5: think we all agree it would be miserable to live

820
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 5: in a territory that doesn't have an airport, doesn't have

821
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 5: a seaport.

822
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: Uh.

823
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 5: The argument from Israels of Israel is that if you

824
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 5: put an airport and Gaza Hamas would immediately see is

825
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 5: it and use it to use parts, use the technologies

826
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 5: to kill Israelis.

827
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and nobody asks if you have an airport in Israel,

828
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 4: will these yearly government use it to import weapons from

829
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 4: the United States that they then used to kill Palestinians.

830
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 4: You see, there's an inequality here that we never really acknowledge.

831
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 2: And I don't think that's unfair.

832
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 5: I just mean, so, what is like, now, what is

833
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 5: the path to creating a guy that can happen?

834
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 2: What do we think Hamas would use the airport in

835
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: the support to bring in weapons.

836
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 4: I have no doubt that they would exactly the same

837
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 4: way the Israeli government imports weapons. And so it's massive

838
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 4: atrocities terrorism against What can.

839
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 5: People in Palestine do to create a situation where that's

840
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 5: not and what can people in Israel do to create

841
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 5: a situation.

842
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 4: And to Stephen's earlier point, that which we did not address,

843
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 4: is like, you know, he thinks the goal of removing

844
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 4: Hamass from power is absolutely essential and you've got.

845
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: To do it first. I want to point out that

846
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 3: double standardause nobody says we have to get rid of

847
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 3: thesesaely government. It's not.

848
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 5: It's not even by any better better if you're better,

849
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 5: and that it's a democracy better in that responds to

850
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 5: international global pressure better than that.

851
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,280
Speaker 2: Their goal isn't the entire annihilation of a group of people.

852
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 4: If you think that the absolutely is their absolute intention

853
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 4: is the absolute erasure of Palestinians has.

854
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 3: Exploded because they're doing it in slow motion.

855
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:20,240
Speaker 2: There's going the opposite way and you go backwards.

856
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 4: That's a very very cute talking point, but when you

857
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 4: look at what actually Israeli policy has been for literally decades,

858
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 4: it's been confining, Palestinians too smaller and smaller areas.

859
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 3: You can see it unfolding.

860
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 4: In the case of Gaza, they've just given up on Gaza.

861
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 4: They've basically this seized the entire thing. It's a cage.

862
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 4: Palestinians can do whatever they want there. They don't care

863
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 4: about Gaza anymore, and that's how they wanted to leave it.

864
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 3: In the case of the West Bank, they absolutely are

865
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 3: squeezing Palestinians into smaller and smaller areas. So you can

866
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 3: talk about the Palastinian population increasing in terms of numbers,

867
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 3: but they're in the areas that Israel is interested in

868
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 3: taking over. They're absolutely decreasing.

869
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 4: When you look at Jerusalem, Jerusalem every few years you

870
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 4: look at it in the number of Palatines, and Jerusalem

871
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 4: is actually decreasing. It's a deliberate policy of pushing Palestinians out.

872
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 4: But so from my perspective, and look, look.

873
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 2: There are Palestinian is decreasing. Are you saying because some

874
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 2: of them are getting citizenship for Israel now?

875
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 4: Because no, no, no, no no, because Israel is demolishing their

876
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 4: homes and replacing them. And in some cases you see

877
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 4: it actually on video of Palestinian families being thrown out

878
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 4: of their homes in East Rustom and Jews Stetler's come

879
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 4: and to take over those is There.

880
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 2: Is cens available for every person living. Even there's a

881
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 2: lot of people you want because they don't want to

882
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 2: be part of Israel. And do you think real quick,

883
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 2: because you mentioned between the Hamas, do you think if

884
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: Hamasu ran Israel and Jews lived in the Gaza strip

885
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 2: in the West Bank, do you think the situation would

886
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 2: look the same or do you think as would treat

887
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 2: them worse?

888
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 3: I have no idea.

889
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: You wouldn't even you couldn't.

890
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: Possibly it wouldn't look like to be treated worse than

891
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: gods is being treated now.

892
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,919
Speaker 2: A million times. It could be actual starvation, It could

893
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 2: be actual dying.

894
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 3: Is actually actual gods. So people are dying by the dozen.

895
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: I wish I brought a list of me. I have

896
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 2: like fifty two different stories between October and now where

897
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 2: verge of famine emmited, mass starvation, almost famine about to start.

898
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 2: It's been happening for six months, and prior to this

899
00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 2: people say it's happening for twenty years.

900
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 3: Those of children dying, you go by.

901
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: Zero reports, the number is thirty two, and that's the

902
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,439
Speaker 2: most favorable re reporting the gods and health.

903
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 3: So that's acceptable for you.

904
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 2: That's the idea that this place has been starved for

905
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 2: decades and we have thirty two? Does the show for

906
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 2: you're once again conflating not very that you're not going

907
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: to answer, which is if Hamas ran Israel, do you

908
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 2: think that the truth just worse.

909
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,439
Speaker 3: I don't see the point of speculating about things that.

910
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: Because we have no idea what he said that the

911
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 2: idea is worse than Hamas.

912
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 4: Yes, in terms of the scale of the atrocities that committed,

913
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 4: there's no okay.

914
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 3: So in that case, you about it.

915
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 2: The United States is worse than Hamas and that basically

916
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 2: every single large country.

917
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 4: Is worth because I think I think the genocidal campaign

918
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 4: that Israel is currently engaged in Gaza is kind of unique.

919
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 4: It's not it's not commonplace for countries to engage in

920
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 4: that level of violence.

921
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 2: When you mayle or let me, let me just I

922
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: just want to I just want to know.

923
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 3: So many things. I'm not chase the ball into different directions.

924
00:40:58,000 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: It's very clear that you can answer everyone. I am

925
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 2: saying so many things. I will ask a very clear question,

926
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 2: you won't engage, and then you're gonna yeap about a

927
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 2: whole bunch of unrelated stuff like genocital campiates to reader

928
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 2: one more time, you're not going to answer. I understand.

929
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 2: My very clear question was, if Hamas was in control

930
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: of Israel and then the IDF in Israel was in

931
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 2: control of the Gaza strip in the West Bank, do

932
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 2: we think that Hamas, who would now own nuclear weapons

933
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: and a full military and everything, would they be treating

934
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 2: the Jews better or worse than the Jews are treating

935
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 2: the Palestinians.

936
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 4: And my answer is, I don't know. You've mentioned that

937
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 4: Hamas has to go. I think these early government has

938
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 4: to go by that logic. And the question then becomes

939
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 4: what cost would be acceptable to impose on Israeli civilians.

940
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 3: In order to get the Israeli government out of power?

941
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 3: Would you impose starvation and all that? Of course nobody

942
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 3: would endorse that.

943
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 4: Everybody understand that's a completely monstrous idea for a government

944
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 4: that has committed far greater atrocities than Hamas has. And

945
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 4: then you have the second point of if you want

946
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 4: to get rid of Hamas, it might be useful to

947
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 4: ask yourself how Hamas came into being, how did they

948
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 4: come about, how did they get support? And it's obvious

949
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,439
Speaker 4: that brutality towards Palestinians is how Hamas came in to being,

950
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 4: because they created it literally and it's it's you know,

951
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 4: even if you want to leave out the part where

952
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 4: nathaniaho Is effectually was effectively indulging their existence as a

953
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 4: means of dividing Palestinians Israelly. Politicians have been quite explicit

954
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 4: about the fact that they see this as a useful policy.

955
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 3: To prevent a Palestinian state from existing.

956
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 4: But Hamas gained support as an alternative to the Palestinian

957
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 4: authority that was client that was bending over backwards to

958
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 4: try to accommodate Israel. And they said no, no, no,

959
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 4: we can get you freedom because we're going to fight.

960
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 3: And that's how they gain power.

961
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 4: And if your idea is to defeat Hamas and get

962
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 4: them out of power by brutalizing Palestinians even more, that's

963
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 4: just completely delusional. Even if you get rid of Hamas

964
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 4: as an organization, whatever replaces it, whether they call themselves

965
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 4: Hamas or not, you're creating another generation of traumatized people

966
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 4: who are going to be desperate for revenge and you're

967
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 4: just basically perpetuating conflict.

968
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: If however, that was the point that I was making earlier.

969
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: Some of the founders of Hamas As children lived through

970
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 1: massacres in gods In in the nineteen fifties.

971
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 2: This is well known. History doesn't justify what they did,

972
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 2: but it raises questions about whether or not tactically strategically,

973
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 2: those massacres worked to Israel's benefit.

974
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: Now, if you are net Yahoo and you want to

975
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: divide Palestinians and the extremists are good for you, then

976
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: it does work to their benefit. But if you're trying

977
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 1: to defeat Hamas or the ideology of kind of armed

978
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: resistance to Israel, and if you really want a two

979
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: state solutions, and if you really want a solution to

980
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 1: this crisis, then why would more cow bell like more violence?

981
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:28,919
Speaker 2: Why would that? Why would that finally work? I don't

982
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 2: think more or less violence will work. There has to

983
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 2: try less. We've tried more, not less, hasn't of the

984
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 2: entire history of the Palestinian people against Israel since forty

985
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 2: eight has been one of violence, NonStop, right, so that

986
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 2: the idea that like it's if you're just peaceful for

987
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: a little bit, it'll fix things. Isn't going to work.

988
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 2: The Palestinian people don't want peace, they want justice, and

989
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 2: in their mind right now, justice has to do with

990
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 2: acquiring some amount of Israel. Now, whether that is the

991
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 2: entire irony of Israel into a single state, or whether

992
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 2: that's a two state solution again.

993
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 4: Acquiring parts of Israel. If you're talking about two states,

994
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 4: that's acquiring occupied territory that is not Israels and Israel

995
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 4: has to withdraw from.

996
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 3: What do you mean it's not Israels, it does not

997
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 3: belong to in international law is extremely clear about the

998
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 3: fact that they have to withdraw from that territory. Not

999
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: extremely it is extremely clear.

1000
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 2: You're going to reference a single advisory of pitten written

1001
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 2: by the by the UN in two thousand.

1002
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 3: And four resolutions that make absolutely clear.

1003
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 2: That resolution story before we get into the resolutions.

1004
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 1: Since you raised the virtue of the Israeli government, I

1005
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 1: did want to ask if you had seen the plus

1006
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: nine seven two article on the lavender Ai program. I

1007
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 1: imagine you saw this, so let me read you a

1008
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: little portion of it. So the IDEF used artificial intelligence

1009
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: to identify hamas members. It used to be that you

1010
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: had to be I think kernel or above to be

1011
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: specifically targeted by an air strike, and you had to

1012
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: be and there had to be some precautions taken to

1013
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: minimize the civilians that you might be around. The IDF

1014
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: after October seventh got rid of both of those precautions.

1015
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: They said, any HAMAS member is now able to be

1016
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:19,959
Speaker 1: targeted by an airstrike, and civilian casualties don't matter. In fact,

1017
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,760
Speaker 1: maximizing civilian casualties seems to be a feature of the program.

1018
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: I'll just read from this if you can put up

1019
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: the nine to seven two magazine article they're write. During

1020
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: the early stages of the war, the army gave sweeping

1021
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: approval for officers to adopt Lavender's kill lists, with no

1022
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: requirement to thoroughly check why the machine made those choices

1023
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: or to examine the raw intelligence on which they were based.

1024
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 1: One source stated that human personnel often served only as

1025
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 1: a quote rubber stamp for the machine's decisions, adding that

1026
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: normally they would personally devote only about twenty seconds to

1027
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 1: each target before authorizing a bombing, just to make sure

1028
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: the Lavender marked target is male. This was despite knowing

1029
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 1: that the system makes what are regarded as errors in

1030
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: approximately ten percent of cases, and is known to occasionally

1031
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: mark individuals who have merely a loose connection to militant

1032
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: groups or no connection at all. Moreover, the Israeli armies

1033
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: systematically attacked the targeted individuals while they were in their homes,

1034
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: usually at night, while their whole families were present, rather

1035
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: than during the course of military activity. According to the sources,

1036
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: this was because, from what they regarded as an intelligent standpoint,

1037
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: it was easier to locate the individuals in their private houses.

1038
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:34,760
Speaker 1: Additional automated systems, including one called Where's Daddy, also revealed

1039
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: here for the first time, were used specifically to track

1040
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: the targeted individuals and carry out bombings when they had

1041
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: entered their families' residences, and a nine to seven to

1042
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: two argues that the reason that you've seen so many

1043
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 1: women and children killed is that they were identifying men.

1044
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: Sometimes something like ten to twenty percent of men and

1045
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: gods are named Muhammad. If you go through the Ministry

1046
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: of Health list of casualties, many of them have same

1047
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: last names because they're from the same family. So they're

1048
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: using AI to identify a particular man and then follow

1049
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: him to his home and then killing him with a

1050
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 1: bomb in his home. Oftentimes this is an apartment that

1051
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: doesn't just have his family sleeping there, but also has

1052
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: many other family sleeping.

1053
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 4: There, which is where the whereas Daddy name comes from

1054
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 4: that program. They wait for them to be with their families,

1055
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 4: and they think it's easier to bomb them in their

1056
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 4: homes rather than try to fight them in the field.

1057
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 4: And the words they're more difficult to find.

1058
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 2: So how could the because of the field, like, so,

1059
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 2: how could this be worse?

1060
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: Try to design I could government that behaves in a

1061
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: worse way than obvious.

1062
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 2: Counter is the numbers don't support the idea that civilians

1063
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 2: are being targeted in mass It doesn't even come close

1064
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 2: to it. I've seen estimates at anywhere it's like nine

1065
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 2: to one for civilian to military dost historically in conflict,

1066
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: and the idea that in the Goaza Strip, one of

1067
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 2: the most densely populated places on the planet, those numbers

1068
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: right now are depending on who's not supposed to go

1069
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 2: anywhere from two point five the one to like four

1070
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 2: to one in terms of civilian too militant deaths. So

1071
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 2: the idea that people doing wiped out with innocent family members.

1072
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 2: There just don't seem to be any numbers at all

1073
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 2: to support that. Something that's also very frustrating is Hamas

1074
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 2: engages in behavior that has been documented by the UN,

1075
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 2: by Amnesty International, by other NGOs, that is supposed to

1076
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: induce the death of civilians. I don't know why nobody

1077
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 2: seems to ever care about this. Hamas and the Goaza

1078
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: strip exclusively fights in civilian clothes. Do you acknowledge that

1079
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 2: there you don't care Hamas will fight from hospitals? Do

1080
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 2: you acknowledge that they.

1081
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 3: Don't fight from hospitals?

1082
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 2: What happened with the most recent rate?

1083
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 4: Let me let me okay, so you've actually gone no, no, no,

1084
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 4: I'm going to address You're gonna.

1085
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 2: Address it because you're not. But so let me just

1086
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 2: get my f he.

1087
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 5: Said, he doesn't think that they know he's he He

1088
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 5: just said, no.

1089
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 2: He doesn't. But I just want to go. I just

1090
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 2: want to just for people listening. I guess one of

1091
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 2: the frustrating things about asymmetrical warfare is that as law

1092
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 2: arm conflict has evolved past the nineties, the clubs of

1093
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union States are having to do more and

1094
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 2: more funding against non state actors, which is post a

1095
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 2: huge challenge to the ICJ and the ICCM. Termetime he

1096
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 2: analyze this conflict and the reason why it's such a

1097
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,280
Speaker 2: challenge is because international law only works if it allows

1098
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 2: countries to effectively operate so that countries will want to

1099
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 2: follow it. So international law tries to balance for law

1100
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 2: of ar conflict two very very delicate things. One is

1101
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 2: the protection of orstick combat peoples, people that shouldn't be

1102
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 2: killed ever, and then the other is a state's ability

1103
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 2: to conduct warfare because we deprive either of these. If

1104
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 2: you don't protect civilians, everybody dies, and if you deprive

1105
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 2: a state of the ability to defend it, so nobody

1106
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 2: follows law arm conflict. The issue with hamas as an

1107
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 2: asymmetrical opponent is every single behavior that they engage in

1108
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 2: is meant to induce maximum civilian casualty. That means that

1109
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 2: they exclusively fight in civilian uniforms. It means that they

1110
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 2: operate out of civilians supposed to be special protected areas

1111
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 2: like hospitals. The al Schiafa rate recently is a good

1112
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 2: example of that. They booby trap corpses, they booby trap houses.

1113
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 2: This happened a lot of protective edge In twenty fourteen,

1114
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 2: AMBSSY International reports show that there was footage taken out

1115
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 2: of Al Shifa Hospital in two thousand and eight. MSCY

1116
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 2: International are on that that there was an interrogation center

1117
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 2: in there and we saw captured CCTV footags that showed

1118
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: hostages being brought into Alshiva Hospital. That every that Hamas

1119
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 2: will store munitions, and they will fight even from zones

1120
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 2: that are supposed to be declared safe, and they store

1121
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 2: ammunitions in places like mosques or homes. All of these

1122
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 2: behaviors are designed from the Hamas perspective to induce the

1123
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: maximum amount of civilian casualties. And then when it happens,

1124
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 2: nobody has anything to say with Hamas, and everybody has

1125
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 2: something to say with Israel. Why hasn't Hamas, By the way,

1126
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 2: these are also considered failures to uphold your duty under

1127
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: an auslaw. Why hasn't Hamas tried to protect the civilian population.

1128
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,720
Speaker 2: All those tunnels they built, they couldn't build one bomb shelter.

1129
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,919
Speaker 2: Why hasn't Hamas tried to set up a humanitarian area?

1130
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 2: Why is it exclusively on Israel and the international community

1131
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 2: and Hamas can't do any type of collaboration or cooperation

1132
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 2: to do it because they don't care, because the goal

1133
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 2: is to induce the maximum amount of civilian coustus.

1134
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: One tiny point out, if they did build a bomb

1135
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: shelter for civilians, Israel would bombit and say that the

1136
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: look they're putting, they're putting civilians.

1137
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 2: And if it would happen, that would be the end

1138
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 2: of the conflict. Because if there is a civilian bomb

1139
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 2: shelter built and there were no hostenal resort and Israel

1140
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 2: that over target at that point, who supports it bombing

1141
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:09,240
Speaker 2: their bombing entire neighborhood to the hospital.

1142
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 4: You've gone through our lengthy record, allow me to do

1143
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 4: the same. Actually for just one second. One of the

1144
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 4: things that you had actually said recently, I think it's

1145
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 4: on the Comedy Seller podcast, is that it is quite

1146
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 4: blatant to you, he said, parently obvious that Israel is

1147
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,720
Speaker 4: doing everything it can to protect civilians and cause.

1148
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 2: Them or I don't understand. I think said more than

1149
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 2: any other country ever has in the history of company. Yes,

1150
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 2: I think, oh, actually it turns out we do have that,

1151
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 2: all right. It seems if you engage with it honestly,

1152
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 2: and I hate to say that's summary parties when you

1153
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 2: engage with honestly, it seems obvious, like parently obvious, that

1154
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 2: Israel is doing everything they can to minimize casualties. That

1155
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 2: it's like undeniable because the numbers would be so much

1156
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,879
Speaker 2: different if they were just indiscriminately bombing or carpa bombing,

1157
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 2: as everybody says. So, but I mean, they still have

1158
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 2: to manage the pr aspect because at the end of

1159
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 2: the day, you know, perception is really the only thing

1160
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 2: that matters in international communities with other countries.

1161
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,359
Speaker 4: So frankly, the claim that Israel's doing everything it can

1162
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 4: to mini my civilian casualties is by far the single

1163
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 4: most absurd thing that I have heard Stephen say.

1164
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 3: Period, let me run through the record.

1165
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 2: We target a soldier at his house at night, if

1166
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 2: that was your goal.

1167
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 4: And with the thing that you mentioned with Lavender, it's specifically, yeah,

1168
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 4: specifically when they're at home, but beyond that, just if

1169
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 4: I can run through that record.

1170
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 5: Because one second, so quick, do you stand by saying everything.

1171
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 2: The more basically yeah, more back to more than any

1172
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 2: other country ever has in the history of all of them.

1173
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 4: Conflict let's run through the record. Human rights organizations who

1174
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 4: are the objective observers on these situations. Every single one

1175
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 4: of them, in every subsequent invasion of Gaza, including the

1176
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 4: current one, talk about Israel engaging in massive, indiscriminate bombing

1177
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 4: of civilian areas. They talk about flattening and entire neighborhoods.

1178
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 4: They talk also about deliberately killing civilians who oposed absolutely

1179
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 4: no threat to Israeli soldiers. They go through and describe

1180
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 4: these incidents, they raise them with the Israeli military. The

1181
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 4: real military says, we investigated and we saw that nobody no,

1182
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 4: nothing wrong happened. And human rights organization's assessment of the

1183
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 4: way that Israel conducts itself is that it's completely in

1184
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 4: violation of international law and that their self accountability is

1185
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 4: a complete cham it's not actually serious. And then you

1186
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 4: look at what Israeli leaders themselves also say. And by

1187
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 4: the way, that nine seven to two magazine there was

1188
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 4: an article there is a one that came before it

1189
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 4: as well, in which they described that Israeli's policy in

1190
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,919
Speaker 4: Gaza is to basically shock the civilian population by doing

1191
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 4: massive devastation in civilian areas as a means of putting

1192
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 4: pressure on Hamas. And that included an example that they

1193
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 4: listed toppling a high rise residential building without warning on

1194
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 4: top of the people who are inside it. So that's

1195
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 4: and that's yeah, that's based on power targets. Is a

1196
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 4: power target? Yeah, And that's based on interviews with Israeli

1197
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,399
Speaker 4: intelligence officers about Israeli policy in Gaza. And it's long

1198
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:47,720
Speaker 4: been stated Israeli policy. Frankly, if you look at people

1199
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 4: like gua Island Israeli general who later became the National

1200
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 4: Security Advisor in Israel, they talk about the policy being

1201
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 4: to punish the civilians and to induce so much suffering

1202
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,800
Speaker 4: among them in huge numbers, to put pressure on groups

1203
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 4: like Hamas and Hezbela. And this is not new here,

1204
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 4: by the way. During yeah, during the two thousand and

1205
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 4: six invasion of Lebanon, there is an incident in which

1206
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 4: Israel dropped a million cluster bombs all over towns and

1207
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:13,760
Speaker 4: villages in Lebanon, prompting a high ranking Israeli commander to say, quote,

1208
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 4: this is you can find it on ha Itz. What

1209
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 4: we did was insane and monstrous. We covered entire towns

1210
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 4: and villages with cluster bombs. That's how they describe what

1211
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 4: Israel actually carried out at the time. And then you

1212
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 4: look at current Israeli statements right now from all of this,

1213
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 4: Benjamin Attaniajo has been quoted saying in Israeli press again

1214
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 4: talking about what the strategy is with Ron Drmer, and

1215
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 4: he said, the strategy is to thin the population in

1216
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 4: Gaza down to a minimum.

1217
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 3: That's what he actually wants to do. He uses genocidal

1218
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 3: language like the Amalik, which is a quote from the

1219
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 3: Bible about murdering the children and babies of your animal.

1220
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 2: Like appears out to the hang the idea that is exclusively.

1221
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 4: And you have then Israeli soldiers themselves, so in case

1222
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 4: there's a misinterpretation of that, celebrating that they're going to

1223
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 4: kill Palestinians, Palestinian civilians. They're chanting about the Mlek and

1224
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 4: how we're going to destroy them. And you have people

1225
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 4: who are actually posting videos on themselves talking about we're

1226
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 4: killing them by the tens of thousands.

1227
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 3: Isn't that great?

1228
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 4: So though it's the rhetoric of Israeli soldiers themselves on

1229
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 4: the ground, then they're caught on tape shooting children in

1230
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,320
Speaker 4: the head when they post absolutely no threat. It happened

1231
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 4: in Janine, even in the West Bank during this current crisis,

1232
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 4: where he saw two young children being shot in the

1233
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 4: head with basically very obviously posing no threat. You saw

1234
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 4: in Gaza grandmother holding the hand of a young child

1235
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 4: while carrying a white flag, and they shoot her dead

1236
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 4: while the child is holding her hand, and the child

1237
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 4: freaks out and everybody else runs away. You have a

1238
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,360
Speaker 4: pattern that is documented on video of these kinds of crimes.

1239
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 4: You have American doctors who visit Gaza and talk about

1240
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 4: the horrors they see in hospital, how there's countless children

1241
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 4: who come in with single sniper bullet wounds to the head.

1242
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 4: They can't keep track of how many of these are

1243
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 4: coming in. And you have the President of the United

1244
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 4: States describing Joe Biden describing Israeli bombings of Gaza as

1245
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 4: in discriminate the idea that you can look at this

1246
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 4: amount of evidence between what human rights organizations are reporting,

1247
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 4: what Israeli leaders are saying, what Israeli soldiers are posting

1248
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 4: of themselves, and what the American government's assessment of that

1249
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 4: bombing is, and to say they're doing everything they can

1250
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 4: to minimize civilian casualties is just so thoroughly dishonest on

1251
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 4: behalf of an apartheid government that is committing atrocities before

1252
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 4: all of us. It's just it's it's mind boggling, Steve.

1253
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 4: You honestly would have to be either naive to believe

1254
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 4: that or dishonest.

1255
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 3: And you just don't strike me as an IV guy.

1256
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 3: You're a very smart guy. I don't understand how you can.

1257
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 2: Actually say its funny because the entire like yep, you

1258
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 2: just did, is completely destroyed by a single question. How

1259
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 2: do you explain the numbers? What I would explain the

1260
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 2: ratio of even what Hamas has claimed, I think, how.

1261
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 4: Many percent women and children? How do you explain that?

1262
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 2: I hold, I'm sorry because for children, we're saying eighteen

1263
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 2: and under as opposed to the traditionally fighting age is

1264
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 2: what we would usually talk about in these conflicts. But

1265
00:56:53,080 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 2: everything you want bombing is worse than fact that even

1266
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,479
Speaker 2: Hamas admitted. I believe that I think it was seventy

1267
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 2: five hundred or eight thousand other people.

1268
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:05,399
Speaker 3: Killed with I don't remember what they're exactly right.

1269
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 5: I have an analysis from March twelve, so this is

1270
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 5: from just Security as of this date, the IDF reported

1271
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,359
Speaker 5: twenty nine thousand air strikes in Gaza. At that date,

1272
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 5: the number of reported civilian deaths in Gaza was roughly

1273
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 5: twenty nine thousand, two hundred. The number of Hamas fighters

1274
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 5: killed in action has been claimed by the IDF and Hamas,

1275
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 5: both without evidence. The IDF claims twelve thousand fighters killed well,

1276
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 5: Hamas claims six thousand fighters killed. So we can look

1277
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 5: at those numbers. Given the demographic data from the Health Ministry.

1278
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:29,919
Speaker 5: Out of twenty nine thousand, two hundred deaths, about ninety

1279
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 5: seven hundred were men and the rest were women and children.

1280
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 5: If the IDEAF claim is true, this is equivalent to

1281
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 5: every man being killed in Gaza being a Hummas fighter

1282
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 5: and several thousand women and or children being Hamas fighters.

1283
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 5: This is extremely unlikely, but to be extremely conservative, I

1284
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 5: will use the IDEAF reported Hamas casualty numbers. Twelve thousand.

1285
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 5: You give a lower bound on civilian deaths in Gaza.

1286
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 5: In addition, we need to subtract deaths that normally happened

1287
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 5: for this population, So about forty nine hundred deaths per

1288
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,960
Speaker 5: year on average equivalent to about eighteen hundred and four

1289
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 5: point five month period. This gives us a minimum number

1290
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 5: of civilian or deaths of approximately fifteen thousand, seven hundred

1291
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 5: based on twenty nine thousand air strikes. That leads to

1292
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 5: an approximate an average of fifty four civilians killed per

1293
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 5: one hundred attacks.

1294
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 2: And just lastly, this.

1295
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 5: Analysis goes on to say, despite the alarm over the

1296
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 5: high rate of civilian dusts in Raka, one finds the

1297
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 5: minimum equivalent in Gaza, fifty four civilians killed in one

1298
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 5: hundred attacks is eight times greater than the air wars

1299
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 5: based estimate and thirty two times greater than the DoD estimate.

1300
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 5: And recall that that fifty two numbers a lower bound

1301
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 5: for the Gaza ratio is likely far higher than this. So, Stephen,

1302
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 5: do you dispute the validity of those numbers?

1303
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 2: What was the ratio of fighters on the lower bound?

1304
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 2: What was the ratio of fighters to civilians?

1305
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 5: There?

1306
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 3: They say?

1307
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 2: Did I say Hamas claimed six thousand? Yeah? So of

1308
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 2: the death told at that time was how much twenty thousand?

1309
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 2: About nine thousand men total? Say six thousand, And it

1310
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 2: was twenty nine thousand total deaths.

1311
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 5: Twenty thousand, two hundred total deaths ninety seven hundred were men.

1312
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 2: So that's so if you're taking the the that's the

1313
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 2: Hamas reported number, you're at one militant to four civilians,

1314
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 2: and that's for the Hamas reported number. How can the

1315
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 2: ratio be so new or on a genoside can discriminate

1316
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 2: campaign against Thomas? Yes, be the case.

1317
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 3: They're doing it again in slow motion to give possible

1318
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 3: that this is happening. It's obvious. Look, they've destroyed eighty

1319
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 3: percent of the building.

1320
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 4: They have, they've displayed it, they've displayed they've displaced ninety

1321
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 4: percent of the population. Can you name any other conflict

1322
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 4: in which he displays ninety percent of the civilian pop now?

1323
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 2: Because usually they just destroyed them. Do you think it

1324
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 2: dressden they told the civilians to flee. Do you think

1325
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 2: in the Tokyo fire bombs sakihiroshim did with all the

1326
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 2: civilians to leave? Can you can you acknowledge what he

1327
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 2: just was incredibly fucking stupid that No, they don't sell

1328
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 2: civilians to leave first. Normally, they just kill them because.

1329
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 3: Because because he thinks, because he thinks that that's a

1330
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 3: clever line. Let me explain something to you. He's not

1331
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,920
Speaker 3: going to I'm going to acknowledge it. I'm going to

1332
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 3: acknowledge it.

1333
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 4: Yes, they told civilians to leave and then they dropped

1334
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 4: massive two thousand bombs on the safe zones that they

1335
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 4: told the civilians.

1336
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 2: Just want to know the feature or whatever.

1337
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 4: There have been countless incidents of them dropping.

1338
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 3: Now you're just flying.

1339
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 2: I looked it up up all the data on all

1340
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 2: the safe zones. Four hours of roads they make safe

1341
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 2: per New York they guarantee travels investigation that attack.

1342
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 4: There's a New York Times investigation and there's an NBC investigation.

1343
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 4: Both of them document the fact that Israel is bombing

1344
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 4: safe zones where they tell civilians to flee.

1345
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 2: And isigation hold on, it is.

1346
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 5: Really committed in CNN that intelligence indication that these places

1347
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 5: were safe houses for commanders of the RAF of a

1348
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 5: brigade of the Hamas Terra organization. This is back in

1349
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 5: December about bombing areas that were supposed to be evacuation routes.

1350
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 2: Evacuation routes are not safe zones. There's been one official

1351
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 2: declared they should shouldn't hams not operate from there? I mean,

1352
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 2: we're talking again, that's a good question. There's one zone

1353
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 2: I wish I could remember is that ow, it's ol

1354
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 2: moah something, it's the beach west of conunits whatever, nobody

1355
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 2: knows of it. It's this is the only singing.

1356
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: Told people to go to conunits would be safe there. Yeah,

1357
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: they did not say.

1358
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 2: The cones would be a safe zone. No, that's absolutely

1359
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:57,959
Speaker 2: why they tell people to go there. Well, initially because

1360
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 2: most of the where they concentrate them and kill them there.

1361
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 2: If why else would they say so?

1362
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 5: Then if you're a Palestinian, are we going to see.

1363
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 2: You're going to see twenty thirty forty fifty thousand deaths soon?

1364
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 2: Then are we about to see like one hundred thousand

1365
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 2: Palatines go up to smoke? That's what they're doing. They're

1366
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 2: hurting them all to one, sent the cities so that

1367
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 2: they can blow them all. Reason, they were going for

1368
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 2: pausible deniability. Now you're arning them to one dry kills

1369
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 2: one a blower.

1370
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 4: Yes, And now they're going to tell them that it's

1371
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 4: time to relocate because we're going to invade offa Hansen

1372
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 4: into places where there is no food, water, or shelter

1373
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 4: and have them.

1374
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 2: And they're going to be and then it's starvation and

1375
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 2: death like they happened for the past five months.

1376
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 4: Yes, it's going to be I'm going killing right, killing

1377
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 4: them by the tens of thousands, and saying oops, it's

1378
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:35,600
Speaker 4: just war. Gauz is unlivable anymore. Too bad, it can't

1379
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 4: support Palestinian life. People are starving. It's just all an

1380
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 4: accident that they're giving what.

1381
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 2: They're doing an accident. They're doing it because it's crazy

1382
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 2: that the numbers are so poor for a country that

1383
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:45,439
Speaker 2: could kill so many more people you have, but they're

1384
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 2: constantly they're doing things that no other countries on. Do

1385
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 2: you acknowledge that no other country does leaflets, phone calls

1386
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 2: to buildings, roof knocking, sirens. Yes, you you get it,

1387
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 2: No one, no other countries, human rights organizations. You're not

1388
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:00,080
Speaker 2: going to answer that. Used you see what countries do it?

1389
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean literally interrupted before we went in to

1390
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:05,120
Speaker 3: literally interrupt me to tell me I'm not going to ask.

1391
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 4: You were saying no country has done anything like roof

1392
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 4: knockings and leafless and all that. And when you look

1393
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 4: at what human rights organizations say about these, they say

1394
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 4: they're completely pointless because there's nowhere for these civilians to

1395
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:17,959
Speaker 4: go that is safe.

1396
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 3: So you can drop a leaflet.

1397
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 4: That's it's it's it's a game and right and like

1398
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 4: the fact that people like you fall for it. It's

1399
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 4: it's just kind of really embarrassing you have for the

1400
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 4: wonderful They tell civilians to flee because here we're going

1401
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 4: to be so nice and make sure that you don't die,

1402
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 4: and then when they flee, they kill them as they're fleeing,

1403
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 4: or they kill them.

1404
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:37,439
Speaker 3: Wherever they.

1405
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 2: If you were a Palestinian, what would you do if

1406
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 2: you lived and probably go south to the whatever the

1407
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 2: beach was? I wish the name of it right now,

1408
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 2: but there's there's been one singularly declared safe area, and

1409
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 2: it's that beach.

1410
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:52,080
Speaker 3: How many how many plasons you want a crowd into

1411
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 3: that whatever? That small beach?

1412
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 2: One point?

1413
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 3: How many bathrooms are there? How much water is there?

1414
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 2: If you will thea how about just have Hamas.

1415
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:05,640
Speaker 3: Or is it just the top bombing gus to stop

1416
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 3: attacking enemy.

1417
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 2: That committed the largest terror attack per capital of the

1418
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:09,320
Speaker 2: history of industry.

1419
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 3: It's a ridiculous double standard.

1420
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 2: Way hold on, you think it's reasonable to tell Israel, hey, Hamas,

1421
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 2: I know that you guys like did a little bit

1422
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 2: of a large terrorism against US and have been, by

1423
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 2: the way, which is a violation of international law, indiscriminately

1424
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 2: launching rockets for decades from this and every single one

1425
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 2: of those is a violation of law because by definition indiscriminate,

1426
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 2: which by definition fail the distinction principle that is essential

1427
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 2: to law, are on conflict one of the three problems.

1428
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 2: So you're saying that Israel needs to allow Hamas to

1429
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 2: stay there, who has been breaking international law of our

1430
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 2: conflict are.

1431
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 4: Twenty years as opposed to Hamas along with the Israeli

1432
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 4: government to stay there when they're breaking international law for

1433
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 4: even longer than that.

1434
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 3: And I want to put a fine, honestly, I want

1435
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 3: to get an answer to that. Why is it that

1436
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,680
Speaker 3: you think that the Israeli government having committed all the atrocities.

1437
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:53,640
Speaker 2: Because the Israeli government is a democracy that can be

1438
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 2: reasoned with. Their neighbors have reasoned with them, people have

1439
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 2: signed peace agreements, and people have reached agreements with them.

1440
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 2: The Palestinians have not. And there's a reason, by the way,

1441
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 2: which you will never recognize, why all of the surrounding

1442
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 2: Arab states have abandoned the Palestinians too, Because their history

1443
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 2: has been one of violence that first they've been encouraged

1444
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:10,600
Speaker 2: by the surrounding nations and used by them, and then

1445
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:12,200
Speaker 2: now they've been abandoned. What's the other nations?

1446
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 3: That's a racist anti Palestinians?

1447
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 2: What happened to seventies Jordan fifty two? Jerusal to go

1448
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 2: to work with the reason he's a racist?

1449
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 4: Yes, when he talks about Palestinians, nobody likes them and

1450
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 4: nobody wants them and nobody whatever.

1451
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 3: Absolutely that's a racist description. Don't this this this distinction

1452
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 3: between like there's a category of people who are racist

1453
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 3: category of people who are not.

1454
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 4: I think that's a simplistic thing. What he just described

1455
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 4: is a racist stereotype. There're absolutely no question.

1456
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:45,440
Speaker 3: I don't want to I don't.

1457
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 2: Want to get them to who he is. To a

1458
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:48,439
Speaker 2: lot of people that are pro Palestinian, understand the history

1459
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 2: is if.

1460
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:52,720
Speaker 4: You don't understand that the Egyptian dictatorship is collaborating with

1461
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:55,560
Speaker 4: Israel to suppress anything that is Muslim Brotherhood affiliated. And

1462
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 4: that's why the reason they're collaborating against the.

1463
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 2: Are collaborating with the with the Israeli government. When they

1464
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:01,959
Speaker 2: locked all the Gozzins and the Gouzens, strip and didn't

1465
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 2: let any of them leave.

1466
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, yeah, Steve, you do this thing constantly where

1467
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 4: you bring up random anecdotes that are completely irrelevant to

1468
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:10,520
Speaker 4: anything that what I'm too.

1469
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 2: I'm sorry to you. The reason why that wasn't random

1470
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 2: is because you applied today that the dictatorship in Egypt.

1471
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 2: First of all, you said dictatorship very loaded. Yes, Egypt's

1472
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 2: had a history of dictatorships. You're implying that they're collaborated

1473
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 2: with Israel and a part of unique act, like they're

1474
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 2: collaborating with his own unique way. And even from forty

1475
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 2: eight to sixty seven, when Egypt had controlled the Gaza Strip,

1476
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 2: the Palestines were still locked in.

1477
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 4: And let's be clear about whether we're about something or

1478
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:37,040
Speaker 4: let me be clear about something right now. This rhetoric,

1479
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:39,640
Speaker 4: I'm gonna let it go for now. The idea is

1480
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 4: looking at all the Arabs surrounding our government who are

1481
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 4: collaborating with Israel. It's signed that they hate Palestinians. When

1482
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 4: you do opinion polling in any of these countries, all

1483
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 4: of them, including in Saudi Arabia, the overwhelming majority of

1484
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 4: the population wants to cut off any talk. They want

1485
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 4: to isolate Israel diplomatically. They don't want to deal with them.

1486
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 4: The people of the region absolutely oppose what Israel is

1487
01:05:57,920 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 4: doing to Palestinians. And the fact that you can cite

1488
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 4: a handful of governments in the surrounding area who all

1489
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 4: effectively belonged to the US orbit and operate under and

1490
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 4: get tremendous privilege and financial privilege and security privilege for

1491
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 4: collaborating with the United States, and to try to paint

1492
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:12,919
Speaker 4: that as some sort of validation that they have anti

1493
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 4: Palestinian sentiment, I think it is completely ridiculous and ignorant

1494
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 4: of the dynamics that actually exist in the region, a

1495
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:18,920
Speaker 4: region that I grew up in.

1496
01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 3: By the way, what you have I.

1497
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 4: Grew up in Kuwait, Jordan, Yemen, Oman and the United

1498
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 4: Arab Emirates, and I visited Palestine on multiple occasions.

1499
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 2: Gotcha, you grew up equated in what years? Was that

1500
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 2: when Arafat was supporting I was Saddam Hussein.

1501
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 3: I was born in Kuwait in nineteen eighty two, when

1502
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,720
Speaker 3: I lived there until that war, and yes, when Arafat

1503
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 3: made statements in support of Saddam Hussein, that became the

1504
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:42,560
Speaker 3: reason why many Palestinians could not go back, which was.

1505
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:44,439
Speaker 2: A really big deal too, which is also funny because

1506
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 2: those Oslo course would point to Israel not being a

1507
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 2: good part of for peace. The only reason why those

1508
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 2: Oslo courts were so horrible is because Arafat was desperately

1509
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 2: looking for a way back into Palestinian popularity after supporting

1510
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 2: speaking of Oslo.

1511
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:56,200
Speaker 3: Yes, and you know what was also happening, And the

1512
01:06:56,200 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 3: reason why Oslo happened is because while Arafat was looking

1513
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:00,520
Speaker 3: for a way to get validation as the leader of

1514
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 3: Palestinians and come back, Israel was dealing with the fact

1515
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:05,200
Speaker 3: that there is a Palestine uprising, the first into Fada

1516
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:09,560
Speaker 3: overwhelmingly non violent, in which Palestinians were doing civil disobedience,

1517
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:12,680
Speaker 3: sometimes throwing rocks at soldiers, and Israel was brutalizing them

1518
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 3: for a year after year after there were they killed

1519
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:18,280
Speaker 3: so many of them that the Israeli officials started being

1520
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 3: concerned about the the optics of it, so they just said,

1521
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 3: don't kill them, beat them up and break their arms instead.

1522
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 3: And what you ended up with, and what you ended

1523
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 3: up with, you have to let me finish my thought

1524
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 3: every now and then.

1525
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:32,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what you ended up with murder the children.

1526
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:33,200
Speaker 2: Understand we gain.

1527
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 4: They started beating up Palestinian protesters and seeing them brutalizing

1528
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:39,600
Speaker 4: them and breaking their bones on video, and that ended

1529
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:40,320
Speaker 4: up being an even.

1530
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:41,440
Speaker 3: Bigger disaster for Israel.

1531
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 4: And they did not know what to do with that

1532
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:45,880
Speaker 4: civil uprising of people who wanted to be free from occupation,

1533
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 4: and so they struck a deal with Arafat and brought

1534
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 4: him in to suppress the Intafada on the fake and

1535
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 4: false promise that they might grant Palestinians estate. Arafat fell

1536
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 4: for it, and it was all a sham made to

1537
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 4: suck the energy out of a genuine Palatinian uprising for

1538
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:04,280
Speaker 4: freedom and to turn it into the fraudulent Oslo process

1539
01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:07,080
Speaker 4: in which Israel had cover to expand more and more

1540
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 4: settlements and entrench the occupation under the pretensive peace.

1541
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 3: That's the history of what happened.

1542
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 5: So what could Israel have done after October seventh that

1543
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 5: would have been and I don't want to ump you

1544
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 5: into this camp. Some people said, it's about proportionality. What

1545
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:20,120
Speaker 5: could Israel have done after October seventh that would have

1546
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 5: either been proportional or given some of the legitimate points

1547
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:26,720
Speaker 5: that Stephen made about a densely populated area where you

1548
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:30,720
Speaker 5: have a military and a civilian population crowded into hospitals,

1549
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 5: et cetera. What could Israel have done? What should they

1550
01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:34,559
Speaker 5: have done after October seventh?

1551
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:36,759
Speaker 4: That would have been a just response, And I promised

1552
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 4: I'll address that directly, but just on the context that

1553
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:41,479
Speaker 4: you just described before that you have a situation in

1554
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:44,280
Speaker 4: which there is it's impossible to have a situation which

1555
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 4: HAMSS is fighting not in civilian areas. I mean when

1556
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,000
Speaker 4: you talk about the difference in power. One side has

1557
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 4: a full fledged military, as air force has tanks, Hams

1558
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 4: can just go out in the field and confront them directly.

1559
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:57,960
Speaker 3: So they do so, they do, so they do. Thank you.

1560
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 4: You'd have to let me finish my sentence right now,

1561
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 4: and then Steven seriously, like judge try, in the words

1562
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:05,680
Speaker 4: of Norman Ficklestein tried to have the self possession to

1563
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 4: just listen.

1564
01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 2: A little bit more and then a style of norm

1565
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 2: be wrong of it everything.

1566
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:12,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, you have a situation in which the balance of

1567
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 4: power makes it so that those militants have to effectively

1568
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:18,599
Speaker 4: use guerrilla tactics, and grilla tactics involve hiding in civilian areas.

1569
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:22,639
Speaker 4: That's how that actually that happens. And if you're really

1570
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:24,360
Speaker 4: upset about that and you think that that's a real

1571
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 4: problem by all means, arm hamasked, the way you arm

1572
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 4: Israel and then they can have military on military war

1573
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:30,720
Speaker 4: and we can spare the Palestine and civilians if you

1574
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:33,320
Speaker 4: think that's really what's the underlying motivation. But of course

1575
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:36,320
Speaker 4: nobody would ever consider that we only armed the criminals

1576
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:39,559
Speaker 4: on one side with massive armaments. Now, on the question

1577
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:42,880
Speaker 4: of what Israel should have done, there's two separate questions

1578
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:45,400
Speaker 4: that often get conflated. There's the question of is it

1579
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 4: a just war to begin with, and then there's the

1580
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:48,000
Speaker 4: question of proportion.

1581
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:51,080
Speaker 3: And you can imagine if people in Gaza were free

1582
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:54,000
Speaker 3: and Israel was not controlling their lives and deciding how

1583
01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:55,360
Speaker 3: much food they get to eat and whether they can

1584
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:57,599
Speaker 3: go and come back, and then some kind of attack happened,

1585
01:09:57,640 --> 01:10:00,040
Speaker 3: you might expect some kind of Israeli retaliation, and and

1586
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,400
Speaker 3: then the only conversation would be about propersonality.

1587
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 4: Are they doing it in a way that is that

1588
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 4: is defensible, and what they're currently doing is I'm obviously

1589
01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:09,840
Speaker 4: not defensible, to be devastating the civilian population in order

1590
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:13,519
Speaker 4: to thin that population, by the words of the Israel's

1591
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 4: leader right now.

1592
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:17,799
Speaker 2: But there's which is it comes from the red line.

1593
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:21,599
Speaker 4: It comes from Israeli press reporting on internal strategic conversations.

1594
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:25,200
Speaker 4: So yes is really yes israelly media anxiety when.

1595
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:27,679
Speaker 2: Then the population has always had a calorie surplus, even

1596
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,920
Speaker 2: even the diets they literally have. That's why when the

1597
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 2: famine started, when all the people were moved, I believe

1598
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:34,760
Speaker 2: it was Unra that made the statement that this is

1599
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 2: a region that.

1600
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:36,479
Speaker 3: Is super experienced before.

1601
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:40,600
Speaker 2: That's that's also why things got mad because if you

1602
01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 2: really wait, these people are starving by what metric?

1603
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 3: That's fine.

1604
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:45,320
Speaker 4: That's what's so infuriating, Stephen, is that you want to

1605
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:47,479
Speaker 4: start counting calories and try to discover whether they have

1606
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:49,960
Speaker 4: a surplus or or not, when you're missing the fact

1607
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:52,439
Speaker 4: that Israel getting to decide what food gets into gaza

1608
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:55,519
Speaker 4: is itself outrageous. One people does not get to control

1609
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 4: whether another side gets to have cookies for their children

1610
01:10:58,280 --> 01:10:59,799
Speaker 4: and you know, potato chips or sodas.

1611
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:03,560
Speaker 3: You don't get to do that. That's the level dominant unacceptable.

1612
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:05,439
Speaker 2: But you're not capable of having it because you won't

1613
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:07,680
Speaker 2: even admit why the blockade exists, so you don't even

1614
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:08,240
Speaker 2: deserve to be in.

1615
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:08,720
Speaker 5: What do you want?

1616
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 2: I want to why DoD, Why is the Gaza? Why

1617
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:14,240
Speaker 2: is our blockade and Gaza?

1618
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:16,839
Speaker 4: When you look at the fact that Israel's preventing cookies

1619
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 4: from going into Gaza, you know that it's not cookies

1620
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:22,400
Speaker 4: going in and the rockets filled with Yeah.

1621
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:25,040
Speaker 2: With cookies, Yeah, with sugar and fertilizer.

1622
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:28,679
Speaker 4: Yes, that's how they're going to deny Palestinians and Gaza

1623
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:29,599
Speaker 4: sugar because it might.

1624
01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:34,840
Speaker 2: Be used, you know, back in because he's not I know,

1625
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:36,479
Speaker 2: how to be clear another time, another thing, you're not

1626
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:38,439
Speaker 2: gonna admit. You know, why does the blockade exist? It's

1627
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:39,320
Speaker 2: literally just because you know.

1628
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:44,200
Speaker 3: Mass spiders breathe air too. Maybe Israel can restrict air

1629
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 3: from going into Gaza to make.

1630
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 5: Sure that are He's saying, then the burdens should be

1631
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:52,280
Speaker 5: on not to use Palistines have no agency is the

1632
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:53,280
Speaker 5: language of the You.

1633
01:11:53,360 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 2: Don't they can't help.

1634
01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 3: Don't punish the civilian racist to get that military ones.

1635
01:11:57,240 --> 01:11:59,760
Speaker 3: You don't punish civilian population criminately.

1636
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:02,200
Speaker 2: Shooting ten of thousands of rockets decade after decade into

1637
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:06,000
Speaker 2: Israel like, what does population like like like selling some

1638
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:09,000
Speaker 2: of the humanitarian food? Population just want to make picking

1639
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:12,400
Speaker 2: up tunnels of water pipes and using them to fashion rockets,

1640
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:16,479
Speaker 2: want to all the international Steve did you? Did you, Stephen?

1641
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:20,479
Speaker 2: Did you say that Hamas is turning cookies into missiles?

1642
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 2: I understand the reason for the the reason for the

1643
01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 2: restricting sugar based products was that the first generation, I

1644
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:28,800
Speaker 2: think there were all cassive rockets were built in really

1645
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 2: crude shops, using combinations of fertilizer and sugars that they

1646
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:32,559
Speaker 2: would use.

1647
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:35,759
Speaker 1: You know what the primary component of Hamas, What Hamas

1648
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 1: explosives is now? I think I'm pretty sure now they

1649
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:42,439
Speaker 1: use more sophisticated stuff, but unexploded Israeli bombs, because they've

1650
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:45,599
Speaker 1: dropped so many over the last decade.

1651
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:47,160
Speaker 2: I doubt that's true. I'm sure they do.

1652
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:50,680
Speaker 1: With a ten to twenty percent failure rate. Hamas then

1653
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 1: digs them up that you've seen one O five's that

1654
01:12:54,320 --> 01:12:56,439
Speaker 1: that you see, uh, you know, blowing up.

1655
01:12:56,439 --> 01:13:01,400
Speaker 2: All these Israeli tanks primarily fled, but I doubt the

1656
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 2: majority of them all.

1657
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 3: There's just more so than.

1658
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:09,840
Speaker 2: Cookies tell you to tell you why it exists.

1659
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:11,320
Speaker 4: I'm going to tell you why the block it exists,

1660
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:13,519
Speaker 4: and the reason, by the way, why it includes banning

1661
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 4: cookies and soda pop.

1662
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:17,200
Speaker 2: And potato chips going into the gun.

1663
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:19,840
Speaker 4: No, I'm sure it's it's very funny denying children the

1664
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:22,120
Speaker 4: ability to eat chocolates and toys because they are Palestinie

1665
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:25,439
Speaker 4: and not Israeli. That's just so incredibly, incredibly trivial, incredibly

1666
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 4: the emotional and potatoes.

1667
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:30,639
Speaker 2: It's working just we're two more virtuary signals away. You're free.

1668
01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:32,040
Speaker 2: Palestinian people keep doing this.

1669
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:34,360
Speaker 3: It's you trivializing. If it was the other way around.

1670
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:36,920
Speaker 4: If Hamas was imposing a siege on Israel, which is

1671
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:39,040
Speaker 4: really children not allowed to do any of that stuff,

1672
01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:40,840
Speaker 4: you would not be sitting here making making a lot

1673
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:42,639
Speaker 4: of it. It would not be trivial to you, because

1674
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:44,800
Speaker 4: you understand that Israelis are human beings and their children

1675
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:46,800
Speaker 4: deserve to eat potatoes, potato chips.

1676
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:47,360
Speaker 3: Jewish people.

1677
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:51,360
Speaker 2: Jewish people live in Arab countries around the world, don't

1678
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 2: they about the knock the expulsion of live in the

1679
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:58,680
Speaker 2: West Bank after forty Thank you for the deflection, and

1680
01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:00,320
Speaker 2: I understand.

1681
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 5: You're you're answer about why the blockade exists.

1682
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 2: He's not He's got to do the fiftytography.

1683
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:06,360
Speaker 3: Blockade exists. Oh my god.

1684
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:09,200
Speaker 4: Okay, the blockade exists because they want to punish the

1685
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:12,160
Speaker 4: civilian population in Gaza as an putting pressure on Hamas

1686
01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:14,040
Speaker 4: they're saying, as long as we have a government in

1687
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:16,680
Speaker 4: Gaza that does not play ball with Israel the way

1688
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:18,479
Speaker 4: the Palestine and authority plays ball with Israel on the

1689
01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:21,000
Speaker 4: West Bank, the civilian population is going to suffer as

1690
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:22,840
Speaker 4: a means of putting pressure on them and getting somebody

1691
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:23,880
Speaker 4: else to be in power.

1692
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:25,880
Speaker 3: The evidence for that is overwhelming.

1693
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 4: Children's toys were not allowed in at the beginning of

1694
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:31,760
Speaker 4: the blockade, and when Israel came under intense pressure under

1695
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:34,040
Speaker 4: the flotilla after the flotilla incident, a bunch of activists

1696
01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:36,840
Speaker 4: tried to basically force medicines to be delivered into the.

1697
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 2: Flotilla incident, there were two of five of the ships

1698
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:42,040
Speaker 2: were empty, and they were aggressive ships that were designed

1699
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:44,160
Speaker 2: to fight against the IDEF. When they landed, you realize

1700
01:14:44,160 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 2: that footage is available and there's one hundred some people

1701
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:50,240
Speaker 2: on the deck with chairs throwing Israeli soldiers overboard. Yeah,

1702
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:52,639
Speaker 2: and when they shift weapons at everything too shift weapons

1703
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:54,439
Speaker 2: y yeah, I know, well that was all they could

1704
01:14:54,439 --> 01:14:55,880
Speaker 2: bring from Turkey with them, I guess because they were

1705
01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:59,000
Speaker 2: inspecting the boats. But yeah, those were not peaceful activist ships.

1706
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:01,160
Speaker 2: And how the words if you open more than a

1707
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:03,080
Speaker 2: Figglestein book and read what actually happened, or watch any

1708
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:06,360
Speaker 2: of the footage, actually actually they were the part of

1709
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:09,719
Speaker 2: the fighters or were they Listen to yourself, listen listeners

1710
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:11,120
Speaker 2: of what you can watch the videos.

1711
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:14,719
Speaker 3: There are people who, yes, fought back when Israel bordered

1712
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:17,479
Speaker 3: their ship in an act of piracy in international water border.

1713
01:15:17,520 --> 01:15:20,240
Speaker 3: The ship because they don't watch gets to god, there

1714
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:20,479
Speaker 3: you go.

1715
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:22,920
Speaker 2: Because there's a blockade because they announced.

1716
01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 3: Don't you need to announce.

1717
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:26,080
Speaker 4: They don't get to impose that blockade. Absolutely, do no

1718
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:28,320
Speaker 4: more than Hamaskis to impose a blockade on Israel.

1719
01:15:28,439 --> 01:15:30,719
Speaker 3: This is ridiculous. Of course, they don't get to decide

1720
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:31,880
Speaker 3: what ships could get.

1721
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:31,960
Speaker 5: To go on.

1722
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:34,760
Speaker 2: By the here he's saying that the blockade exists because

1723
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:37,240
Speaker 2: the Thews are evil to their intentionally.

1724
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:39,240
Speaker 4: That's a despicable thing to say. And not say anything

1725
01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:41,320
Speaker 4: about Jews. I'm talking about the Israeli government policy.

1726
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:44,600
Speaker 2: You can't I'm curious. And the second were submersibles or

1727
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:47,479
Speaker 2: weapons brought in via that via the water into the

1728
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:48,519
Speaker 2: Gaza Strip. That happened.

1729
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:50,600
Speaker 3: What are you talking say that, We're talking their weapons.

1730
01:15:50,360 --> 01:15:52,559
Speaker 2: That were shipped into the Gaza Strip via the Mediterranean and.

1731
01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:54,280
Speaker 3: Plenty of weapons were shipped into Israel as well.

1732
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:55,519
Speaker 2: That's interesting.

1733
01:15:56,400 --> 01:15:59,840
Speaker 5: So there was so there is it.

1734
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:01,560
Speaker 2: The egypt has been a partner with Israel in that

1735
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 2: block this inception as well.

1736
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:04,920
Speaker 3: I've already explained to you why the Egyptian government is

1737
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:06,439
Speaker 3: interested in for twenty.

1738
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:09,760
Speaker 2: Years, they've just been okay, okay, everybody is a this

1739
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:11,800
Speaker 2: is This is consistent at least with the history that

1740
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:19,799
Speaker 2: everybody is collaborators with the West and the world, according

1741
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:21,439
Speaker 2: to the Egyptian dictators. Everybody.

1742
01:16:21,479 --> 01:16:21,599
Speaker 5: Yes.

1743
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 4: Also, I just want to say something. I just honestly,

1744
01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:26,200
Speaker 4: there's one thing that I think is really really important. This,

1745
01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 4: you know, just saying the Jews are evil. It's such

1746
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:32,280
Speaker 4: a despicable line. And let me explain why anti Semitism

1747
01:16:32,360 --> 01:16:34,839
Speaker 4: is a very very serious and rising problem in the country,

1748
01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:37,000
Speaker 4: in many other places around the world, and especially in

1749
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:38,719
Speaker 4: the Trump years, we've seen these shootings that have happened

1750
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:43,400
Speaker 4: at synagogues, and everything like that, and you have a

1751
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:47,760
Speaker 4: situation in which Israel's defenders constantly try to conflate those things.

1752
01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:49,840
Speaker 4: Is that you ignore the fact that there is a

1753
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:53,760
Speaker 4: significant portion of the progressive young American Jewish population that

1754
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:55,719
Speaker 4: is opposed to Israeli policies. And every time you criticize

1755
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:58,080
Speaker 4: Israeli policy, people say, oh, you're attacking.

1756
01:16:57,840 --> 01:16:59,240
Speaker 3: Jews, And that's exactly what you just did.

1757
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:01,640
Speaker 4: And it's not just harmful to people like me who

1758
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:06,240
Speaker 4: get smeared by that accusation, completely baseless and really ugly

1759
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:09,599
Speaker 4: and detestable, but it's also yeah.

1760
01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:12,080
Speaker 3: Of Omar, thank you, thank thank you, thank you for that.

1761
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 3: That's wonderful seculation.

1762
01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:18,360
Speaker 4: But it's also actually harmful to Jewish communities themselves that

1763
01:17:18,439 --> 01:17:21,320
Speaker 4: are trying to protect themselves from anti Semitism. To constantly

1764
01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:23,759
Speaker 4: trivialize that charge that you throw it around at anybody

1765
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:26,519
Speaker 4: who is critical of Israeli policy, anybody who thinks that

1766
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:27,639
Speaker 4: Palophonians are human.

1767
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:29,920
Speaker 3: Beings who deserve to have rights. You water that charge

1768
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:31,720
Speaker 3: down so much when you love it all around that

1769
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:35,000
Speaker 3: real anti Semites get more room to breathe and operate

1770
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:37,600
Speaker 3: because that charge doesn't mean anything. So even if you

1771
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:40,440
Speaker 3: enjoy smearing people like me and people who defend Palophonians,

1772
01:17:40,479 --> 01:17:42,519
Speaker 3: that's fine. But if you have any part of you

1773
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:45,080
Speaker 3: that actually cares about Jewish people in this country, I

1774
01:17:45,120 --> 01:17:47,439
Speaker 3: would strongly advise you to stop throwing that smear around

1775
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:49,400
Speaker 3: at people, because okay, I'll.

1776
01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:52,160
Speaker 2: Do my virtual signs situated yours. I gotta ask an

1777
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 2: interesting question on my way up here from the is

1778
01:17:55,439 --> 01:17:59,240
Speaker 2: It Max Mac producer Mac not or Not? Max Mac

1779
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:02,040
Speaker 2: ask me why I was so interested in this conflict.

1780
01:18:02,120 --> 01:18:03,519
Speaker 2: And one of the things that I think is so

1781
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 2: sad is I think of all the things that I've

1782
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:06,559
Speaker 2: ever looked at my entire life, this is one where

1783
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:08,880
Speaker 2: you can pick and choose facts from one side and

1784
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:11,680
Speaker 2: you can build the most compelling anti Palestinian argument, or

1785
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 2: you can build the most compelling anti Israeli argument. And

1786
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:15,360
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever seen anything where you can

1787
01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:18,280
Speaker 2: have such a one sided telling of the history as

1788
01:18:18,320 --> 01:18:20,760
Speaker 2: I have for this particular conflict. I think the really

1789
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:22,760
Speaker 2: sad thing here is that I think that there are

1790
01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 2: really good criticisms that can be made of Israel. I

1791
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:26,640
Speaker 2: think they're really good criticism you can make of their

1792
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:28,600
Speaker 2: past policy. And I think that the story of the

1793
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:30,720
Speaker 2: Palestinian is an incredibly empathetic one. I think that there

1794
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:34,040
Speaker 2: are reasons why you could support violence in forty seven,

1795
01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:36,680
Speaker 2: violence in forty eight, wars in sixty seven. I think

1796
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:38,519
Speaker 2: you can support all of these things from a really

1797
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 2: empathetic understanding place. But the issue is that both sides

1798
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:44,080
Speaker 2: are so invested in telling their story and making money

1799
01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:46,799
Speaker 2: and making videos and making whatever off of their particular

1800
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:49,479
Speaker 2: side of things that you never will ever, ever, ever

1801
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:53,639
Speaker 2: ever have that conversation. So, for instance, this is why

1802
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:56,920
Speaker 2: identifying root causes is so important when we talk about

1803
01:18:57,200 --> 01:19:00,719
Speaker 2: the blockade. The blockade exists because during the set into Fada,

1804
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 2: there was a lot of weaponry that came in to

1805
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:05,560
Speaker 2: Gaza from the Mediterranean and from Egypt. This is a

1806
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:08,200
Speaker 2: problem that Egypt recognized, the problem that Israel recognized. That's

1807
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:12,200
Speaker 2: why the blockade existed. Especially after the Palestinian authority was

1808
01:19:12,240 --> 01:19:14,280
Speaker 2: not able to bring Hamas under control and Hamas gain

1809
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:17,040
Speaker 2: control of that region, Israel said, well, fuck this, We're going.

1810
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:18,840
Speaker 3: To one point. I don't want to drupt you. Just

1811
01:19:19,160 --> 01:19:19,680
Speaker 3: there's one thing.

1812
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, So when before the flotilla incident, they were not

1813
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:25,719
Speaker 4: allowing certain food items from going in and children's toys.

1814
01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:28,439
Speaker 2: There's two thousand and eight, righteh, we're talking about right, yeah.

1815
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:29,880
Speaker 3: But I want you to explain to me.

1816
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:31,880
Speaker 4: And then after that incident that Israel came under pressure,

1817
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:33,800
Speaker 4: they started allowing a little bit more humanitarian stuff to

1818
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:34,439
Speaker 4: go into Gaza.

1819
01:19:34,840 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 3: Is that because Hamas stopped being a threat to Israel?

1820
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:39,600
Speaker 4: Or is that because those humanitarian goods are actually not

1821
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:41,320
Speaker 4: a threat and Israel did not give a shit about

1822
01:19:41,320 --> 01:19:42,960
Speaker 4: them anyway, apart from wanting to punish them.

1823
01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:45,120
Speaker 2: My guess would be is probably because the Israeli restrictions

1824
01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:46,960
Speaker 2: were too much, and they probably could have calmed the

1825
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:49,080
Speaker 2: fuck down. Right now, Israel is in the position that

1826
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:51,559
Speaker 2: it's in because Israel thinks that they can maintain an

1827
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:54,840
Speaker 2: indefinite status quo and more or less slowly annexed the

1828
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:57,679
Speaker 2: West Bank. That's Israel's goal. The problem with this conflict

1829
01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:00,000
Speaker 2: has always been that Israel wants to fight forever, because

1830
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:01,599
Speaker 2: the longer they fight, the more of the West Bank

1831
01:20:01,640 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 2: they get to annex. The only reason the Abraham Accords

1832
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:06,160
Speaker 2: happened was because it was to stave off annexation of

1833
01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:09,160
Speaker 2: the West Bank. And the problem is that while Israel

1834
01:20:09,200 --> 01:20:11,280
Speaker 2: wants to continue fighting to gain more and more. People

1835
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:13,600
Speaker 2: like you have deluded Palestinians. Anything that they fight, they

1836
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:16,240
Speaker 2: can gain more and more too. Only one side, only

1837
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:19,000
Speaker 2: one side of Paliestate. Whatever that means, Okay, only one

1838
01:20:19,080 --> 01:20:20,160
Speaker 2: side in its conflict.

1839
01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:22,440
Speaker 3: What does it mean to you Palestinian?

1840
01:20:22,720 --> 01:20:25,360
Speaker 2: There are a lot of people became Palestinian after we're

1841
01:20:25,400 --> 01:20:26,840
Speaker 2: depending on what the conflict is. So I don't know

1842
01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:29,200
Speaker 2: what that means. I don't really care that much. The

1843
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:33,439
Speaker 2: idea that the idea that both sides can continue to

1844
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:36,400
Speaker 2: fight only serves one side, and that's the Israeli side.

1845
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:38,280
Speaker 2: The longer the Palestinians continue to fight, the more the

1846
01:20:38,360 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 2: Israels is going to get because the reality is is

1847
01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:42,160
Speaker 2: the Arab states around them are bored. They don't want

1848
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:43,600
Speaker 2: to fight. The leadership doesn't want to fight anymore, not

1849
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:45,240
Speaker 2: going to they did at one point, which is I

1850
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:47,200
Speaker 2: think the most tragic thing is that Palestinians were a

1851
01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:50,200
Speaker 2: tool of the surrounding Arab states to fight with Israel.

1852
01:20:50,360 --> 01:20:52,760
Speaker 2: And that's the most they ever cared about. Why, that's why,

1853
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:55,240
Speaker 2: that's why if you go to these surrounding countries and

1854
01:20:55,320 --> 01:20:58,320
Speaker 2: you ask, that's crazy. There are so many Palestinian refugees here,

1855
01:20:58,439 --> 01:21:00,880
Speaker 2: I wonder why they don't like takingny of them in

1856
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:03,559
Speaker 2: as like actual citizens. And the reason why is because

1857
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:05,559
Speaker 2: in the Arab States you're not allowed to. They don't

1858
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:07,760
Speaker 2: give citizenship to those people because they use them as

1859
01:21:07,800 --> 01:21:09,840
Speaker 2: a tool to fight with Israel, and that's why they're

1860
01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:12,200
Speaker 2: not even allowed to do it. They're banned from actually

1861
01:21:12,240 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 2: giving citizenship to end these palatina. So even the whole

1862
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:16,720
Speaker 2: refugee crisis is inflated more than it should be. But

1863
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:18,519
Speaker 2: the issue is that when you look at these sides

1864
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:20,680
Speaker 2: and you go to criticize the policies, Okay, I bring

1865
01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:23,920
Speaker 2: it back to the blockade. That blockade existed because weapons

1866
01:21:24,000 --> 01:21:26,559
Speaker 2: were coming in to the Gaza Strip via the ocean,

1867
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:29,160
Speaker 2: via the land routes. So if that's the reason why

1868
01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:31,160
Speaker 2: the blockade came in here is I think that you

1869
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:34,160
Speaker 2: can make an incredibly powerful argument that listen net and Yahoo.

1870
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:36,400
Speaker 2: If you want to destroy Hamas, that's fine, but one

1871
01:21:36,439 --> 01:21:39,040
Speaker 2: of the conditions of eliminating Hamas has to be the

1872
01:21:39,120 --> 01:21:42,200
Speaker 2: lifting of the blockade, because with Hamas gone, your justification

1873
01:21:42,240 --> 01:21:44,720
Speaker 2: for the blockade is completely and totally non existent in

1874
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 2: my world. In your world, the blockade never leaves because

1875
01:21:47,439 --> 01:21:49,519
Speaker 2: the only reason is there is to punish Palestine citizens.

1876
01:21:49,640 --> 01:21:51,720
Speaker 2: So if you're constantly screaming in a government, hey you

1877
01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:53,479
Speaker 2: need to take this blockade away because you just hate

1878
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:56,360
Speaker 2: Palestinian people, why would they never remove it. There's absolutely

1879
01:21:56,439 --> 01:21:58,479
Speaker 2: no desire to. There's no reason to. Why would they.

1880
01:21:58,720 --> 01:22:00,400
Speaker 2: But if the argument is, well, we said that the

1881
01:22:00,400 --> 01:22:03,599
Speaker 2: blockade existed because weapons were going into a hostile administration. Well,

1882
01:22:03,640 --> 01:22:05,400
Speaker 2: now that that hostile administration has gone and we allowed

1883
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:07,480
Speaker 2: you to remove it at great cost both to infrastructure

1884
01:22:07,479 --> 01:22:09,519
Speaker 2: and civilian life, Well now we can say, hey, they're gone,

1885
01:22:09,640 --> 01:22:11,639
Speaker 2: you have to lift the blockade. Now there's no justification

1886
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:13,559
Speaker 2: for it. So we have a real analysis of what's

1887
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:15,559
Speaker 2: going on, we can levy legitimate criticisms, and we can

1888
01:22:15,600 --> 01:22:18,320
Speaker 2: look for legitimate solutions. But if the arguments are delusional,

1889
01:22:18,520 --> 01:22:21,160
Speaker 2: that Israel is here indiscriminately murdering tons of people because

1890
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:23,160
Speaker 2: they're evil, or because they hate Jews, or or they

1891
01:22:23,160 --> 01:22:25,719
Speaker 2: hate Palestinians or hate Arabs or whatever, or they're racist

1892
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:27,960
Speaker 2: or is homophobic, there's no solution to be had because

1893
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:30,720
Speaker 2: because in your world, the hatred runs so degres it's intractable.

1894
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 5: Crystal's look stick just full over.

1895
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:33,200
Speaker 2: That's always really fanny.

1896
01:22:33,960 --> 01:22:36,040
Speaker 4: So this is it's funny some bits of that narrative.

1897
01:22:36,040 --> 01:22:38,200
Speaker 4: Actually we're kind of like close to reality. But just

1898
01:22:38,479 --> 01:22:39,880
Speaker 4: let me let me fix a couple of things for you.

1899
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:45,600
Speaker 4: First of all, if you're saying that a precondition for

1900
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:47,320
Speaker 4: lifting the seed is that Hamass has to not be

1901
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:50,000
Speaker 4: in power anymore, you have that backwards. The occupation of

1902
01:22:50,080 --> 01:22:55,000
Speaker 4: Gaza existed before Hamas was created. The occupation created Hamass.

1903
01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:57,759
Speaker 2: Wait when the blockade wasn't since the occupation.

1904
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:00,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the occupation is felthy to and they

1905
01:23:00,320 --> 01:23:02,360
Speaker 3: replaced the occupation with the siege. That's what they did.

1906
01:23:03,040 --> 01:23:05,680
Speaker 2: And the blanket started like two thousand and five.

1907
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:07,280
Speaker 3: Yes, so they withdrew.

1908
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:09,840
Speaker 2: It's been occupied since forty eight.

1909
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:11,160
Speaker 3: It remains exactly.

1910
01:23:11,320 --> 01:23:11,360
Speaker 5: No.

1911
01:23:11,680 --> 01:23:15,200
Speaker 3: Gaza has been occupied since nineteen sixty seven, nineteen forty eight.

1912
01:23:16,280 --> 01:23:19,000
Speaker 3: What are you talking about? Israel took over Gaza nineteen

1913
01:23:19,040 --> 01:23:19,519
Speaker 3: sixty seven.

1914
01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:22,280
Speaker 2: Who took over in nineteen forty eight? The Egyptians did, Yes,

1915
01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:23,959
Speaker 2: so it was occupied by the Egyptians.

1916
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:26,040
Speaker 3: This okay, See this is the I know you don't

1917
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:26,839
Speaker 3: like to talk about.

1918
01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:28,200
Speaker 2: That because it's not convenient, but that's true. It wasn't

1919
01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:30,840
Speaker 2: a Palestinian state, right, who cares? The point is who

1920
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:33,080
Speaker 2: cares the Palestinians where they had a fake government for

1921
01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:35,519
Speaker 2: one year that was recalled to Cairo and immediately let

1922
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:37,080
Speaker 2: they became a training bard for Fettiyi.

1923
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:39,200
Speaker 4: Let me, let me then call for an end to

1924
01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:41,559
Speaker 4: the Egyptian occupation of Gaza to oh wait, it ended great.

1925
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:43,519
Speaker 4: So now let's talk about the Israeli occupation of Gaza.

1926
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:46,200
Speaker 4: It started in nineteen sixty seven, it has continued, and

1927
01:23:46,280 --> 01:23:49,200
Speaker 4: all Israel did is withdraw settlers out of Gaza and

1928
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:52,960
Speaker 4: replace that settlers on the ground with an occupation from

1929
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:56,599
Speaker 4: the outside. That's why nearly every international organization still considers

1930
01:23:56,640 --> 01:23:59,240
Speaker 4: Gaza occupied, even after they with drew settlers then placed

1931
01:23:59,240 --> 01:24:02,559
Speaker 4: it under occupation, according to just about every UN agency

1932
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:05,000
Speaker 4: that you just the list goes on in human rights

1933
01:24:05,080 --> 01:24:08,400
Speaker 4: organizations as well. And so the idea then that you

1934
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:10,160
Speaker 4: need something to change and that Israel would lift the

1935
01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:14,360
Speaker 4: siege in Gaza. Frankly, if Nataniahu Caven said to Hamas,

1936
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:16,760
Speaker 4: if you agree to no longer be in power, We're

1937
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:19,280
Speaker 4: gonna let Gaza be completely. You can have an airport,

1938
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:20,560
Speaker 4: it can have a seaport, you can just like have

1939
01:24:20,680 --> 01:24:23,720
Speaker 4: the population live. I suspect Hamas might actually be up

1940
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:25,679
Speaker 4: for that. In fact, they would consider it a feather

1941
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:27,719
Speaker 4: on their cap. They can say, see, we've delivered something

1942
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:27,960
Speaker 4: for you.

1943
01:24:28,400 --> 01:24:31,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely, but they won't even go to a permanent ceasefire.

1944
01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:33,639
Speaker 4: What would you think that it's changed for Israel ending

1945
01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:36,360
Speaker 4: the devastation of Gaza there they've offered it a million

1946
01:24:36,439 --> 01:24:39,720
Speaker 4: times to release all thestages. Yeah, it's it's it's they've

1947
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:42,360
Speaker 4: offered it repeatedly, and it's kind of funny.

1948
01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:44,400
Speaker 2: It'll me to be clear, you're saying that if Israel

1949
01:24:44,439 --> 01:24:47,280
Speaker 2: said they would end the blockade, that Hamas would step

1950
01:24:47,400 --> 01:24:47,880
Speaker 2: down if.

1951
01:24:47,760 --> 01:24:50,479
Speaker 4: They were to leave Gaza. Absolutely, I think that I

1952
01:24:50,479 --> 01:24:51,160
Speaker 4: would actually.

1953
01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:52,320
Speaker 2: Are you sure that? Are you sure that the claim

1954
01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:54,280
Speaker 2: isn't that they need to have a ten year truce

1955
01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:56,120
Speaker 2: or that they need to recognize a two states.

1956
01:24:58,080 --> 01:25:01,920
Speaker 4: This is them as a governing body early on, when

1957
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:05,480
Speaker 4: they were signaling that they're actually interested in in in moderating.

1958
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:09,200
Speaker 2: Two thousands. This was before they attempted to coop a

1959
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:11,400
Speaker 2: boss's palastinia to throw the pill in the West Bank,

1960
01:25:12,400 --> 01:25:13,360
Speaker 2: before the attempted coup.

1961
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:15,160
Speaker 3: You don't know what you're talking about. It's so incredible.

1962
01:25:15,200 --> 01:25:17,080
Speaker 4: There was an attempt actually a driving Hamas out of

1963
01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:19,400
Speaker 4: power that they then flipped and pushed the Palistina and

1964
01:25:19,439 --> 01:25:21,759
Speaker 4: authority out as part of a plot that is documented.

1965
01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:22,680
Speaker 3: I think it was vanity fair.

1966
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:24,400
Speaker 2: That's true. But you're talking about two thousand and five,

1967
01:25:24,400 --> 01:25:25,920
Speaker 2: and they were there was going to be internet sport

1968
01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:29,439
Speaker 2: for tod yes to the Palastini thirt to the West

1969
01:25:29,479 --> 01:25:31,200
Speaker 2: Bank a few years later when they right after they

1970
01:25:31,200 --> 01:25:31,920
Speaker 2: announced their unity.

1971
01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:33,880
Speaker 3: It's great that you've done some reading and you can

1972
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:35,479
Speaker 3: throw out random factoids, but please.

1973
01:25:35,800 --> 01:25:38,400
Speaker 2: It sucks with the history, Like please try to listen

1974
01:25:38,439 --> 01:25:40,160
Speaker 2: to what I'm saying to you so you can actually understand.

1975
01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:41,400
Speaker 2: I'm broken bones.

1976
01:25:41,520 --> 01:25:42,280
Speaker 3: Yes, Okay, I'm not.

1977
01:25:42,439 --> 01:25:42,640
Speaker 5: I'm not.

1978
01:25:42,760 --> 01:25:44,640
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to throw up random facts that I've read.

1979
01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:46,120
Speaker 4: I'm trying to explain something to you, and I really

1980
01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:47,479
Speaker 4: hope they would actually just make an effort to.

1981
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:48,360
Speaker 3: Listen to what I'm describing.

1982
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:50,640
Speaker 4: There was an effort by Hamas at the time to

1983
01:25:50,680 --> 01:25:53,479
Speaker 4: try to moderate and how that Micheald wrote a piece

1984
01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:55,760
Speaker 4: in the Washington Post here in the US talking about how,

1985
01:25:56,200 --> 01:25:57,720
Speaker 4: you know, we don't like the idea of a two

1986
01:25:57,720 --> 01:25:59,320
Speaker 4: state solution. But if we put it to our friend

1987
01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:02,680
Speaker 4: themnt Palestinian want it, will accept it and whatever. There's

1988
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:05,240
Speaker 4: all kinds of stuff signs. And what Israel did is

1989
01:26:05,360 --> 01:26:07,960
Speaker 4: put a suffocating blockade on Gaza and said you have

1990
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:10,360
Speaker 4: to denounce renounced violence.

1991
01:26:10,000 --> 01:26:11,599
Speaker 3: Even though Israel does not renounce violence.

1992
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 4: They said, you have to recognize Israel even though Israel

1993
01:26:14,320 --> 01:26:16,560
Speaker 4: does not recognize Palestine. And they said you have to

1994
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:18,920
Speaker 4: stick by all previous agreements, even though Israel was obviously

1995
01:26:18,960 --> 01:26:21,080
Speaker 4: not sticking to any agreements they had made with Palestinians

1996
01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:24,760
Speaker 4: in terms of just clearly entrenching the occupation left and

1997
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:28,439
Speaker 4: right at every opportunity. And so Hamas said, no, those

1998
01:26:28,439 --> 01:26:30,439
Speaker 4: are not acceptable demands, and that's how we ended up

1999
01:26:30,439 --> 01:26:33,559
Speaker 4: being stuck in this situation where Hamas's refusal to accept

2000
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:35,160
Speaker 4: whatever Israel wants to meet out to them is the

2001
01:26:35,200 --> 01:26:40,000
Speaker 4: reason why that blockade got entrenched and intensed and became

2002
01:26:40,080 --> 01:26:44,080
Speaker 4: more and more punishing as a means of trying to

2003
01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:47,680
Speaker 4: place more political pressure on Hamas, and the idea that

2004
01:26:47,800 --> 01:26:49,680
Speaker 4: now if only Hamas would agree to X y Z,

2005
01:26:49,840 --> 01:26:51,240
Speaker 4: then everything would be great in Gaza.

2006
01:26:51,320 --> 01:26:54,200
Speaker 3: There's just no reason to believe that because the occupation

2007
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:58,120
Speaker 3: and what Israeli military officials and security officials and political

2008
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:01,040
Speaker 3: officials were talking about when they actually withdrew Gaza was

2009
01:27:01,240 --> 01:27:04,880
Speaker 3: very transparently a plot to deny Palestinian statehood. That they're

2010
01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:06,639
Speaker 3: saying this is a strategic move that will be useful

2011
01:27:06,680 --> 01:27:06,960
Speaker 3: for them.

2012
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:10,120
Speaker 1: Said, you said as much as yourself that the Israel's

2013
01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:12,120
Speaker 1: goal is to prolong the conflict so they can continue

2014
01:27:12,160 --> 01:27:12,360
Speaker 1: to and.

2015
01:27:12,400 --> 01:27:13,080
Speaker 3: So he's right about that.

2016
01:27:14,240 --> 01:27:15,920
Speaker 5: Well, so what are acceptable terms now? I mean, there

2017
01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:19,439
Speaker 5: are ongoing negotiations happening right now. What should acceptable terms be.

2018
01:27:19,560 --> 01:27:21,519
Speaker 2: Right for the end of the conflict or for the

2019
01:27:21,560 --> 01:27:24,320
Speaker 2: actual resolution of the Israeli Palestinian conflict, for the end

2020
01:27:24,320 --> 01:27:26,479
Speaker 2: of the conflict. For this one, Hamas has to go.

2021
01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:28,760
Speaker 2: Ideally the hostages would come back, but I don't even

2022
01:27:28,800 --> 01:27:30,240
Speaker 2: know if we know how many are alive at this point.

2023
01:27:30,280 --> 01:27:32,360
Speaker 2: I think that Israel initially wanted forty and now they

2024
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:33,840
Speaker 2: I think turned it down to thirty three because they

2025
01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:35,920
Speaker 2: don't think they're enough alive that even meet the conditions

2026
01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:39,760
Speaker 2: that they have. But yeah, Hamas needs to go. I

2027
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:42,639
Speaker 2: imagine my understanding is Israel still wants to go into

2028
01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:46,920
Speaker 2: Rafa right. I think they've They've reiterated as much I supported.

2029
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:49,439
Speaker 2: I think Hamas needs to go. I think that's hopefully

2030
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:51,120
Speaker 2: they do it without great costs of simay in life.

2031
01:27:51,160 --> 01:27:53,240
Speaker 2: But I think, yeah, Hamas has to leave. But I

2032
01:27:53,280 --> 01:27:55,800
Speaker 2: would hope that after Hamas has gone, I think that

2033
01:27:55,960 --> 01:27:58,960
Speaker 2: Israel has to change their approach to the area. I

2034
01:27:59,080 --> 01:28:02,479
Speaker 2: think that Israel right now is on the verge of

2035
01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:05,400
Speaker 2: a very strange existential threat where they're getting consumed by

2036
01:28:05,439 --> 01:28:08,080
Speaker 2: their own I don't know if I would say fear

2037
01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:15,200
Speaker 2: or just they need to In the early history of Israel,

2038
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:16,920
Speaker 2: the reason why Israel was able to thrive so much

2039
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:18,639
Speaker 2: and make friends of the West and win wars against

2040
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:20,840
Speaker 2: the warring Arab states is because they had two arms

2041
01:28:20,880 --> 01:28:24,400
Speaker 2: of military and diplomacy that they wielded both incredibly effectively.

2042
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:26,760
Speaker 2: Israe was one of the first nations to identify the

2043
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:28,920
Speaker 2: United States as an important emerging power and to try

2044
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:30,519
Speaker 2: to win favor with them, like they did a lot

2045
01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:34,280
Speaker 2: diplomatically and a lot militarily. But I think ever since

2046
01:28:34,280 --> 01:28:36,639
Speaker 2: peace with Egypt, Jordan, the abram I think that Israel

2047
01:28:36,760 --> 01:28:38,160
Speaker 2: is just like now, they don't care. They're just going

2048
01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:40,000
Speaker 2: to try to maintain a status quo indefinitely because on

2049
01:28:40,040 --> 01:28:42,760
Speaker 2: a military level, they're really not threatened anymore. They pretend

2050
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:44,719
Speaker 2: that it's always an existential threat when it comes to conflict,

2051
01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:48,320
Speaker 2: but that's not true. Has Belah, the Huthis and everybody

2052
01:28:48,360 --> 01:28:49,800
Speaker 2: in the Gossa Strip can invade all at once and

2053
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:51,680
Speaker 2: Israel in battom away. It's not a huge deal. The

2054
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:54,120
Speaker 2: existential threat I think that Israel phases now is a

2055
01:28:54,320 --> 01:28:56,759
Speaker 2: political one, is a diplomatic one because of the situation.

2056
01:28:56,880 --> 01:28:59,760
Speaker 2: The status quo is not tenable and the conditions are

2057
01:28:59,760 --> 01:29:02,280
Speaker 2: not to Mber seventh were entirely I don't want to

2058
01:29:02,280 --> 01:29:04,080
Speaker 2: say like completely foreseeable, but like, what do you think

2059
01:29:04,200 --> 01:29:06,880
Speaker 2: is going to happen if you're continuing this status quo

2060
01:29:06,960 --> 01:29:08,559
Speaker 2: over and over and over again. And then the really

2061
01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:10,920
Speaker 2: funny thing is we talk about we're so obsessed with

2062
01:29:11,080 --> 01:29:13,439
Speaker 2: the They're trying to ethically cleanse the Gazza Strip. They

2063
01:29:13,439 --> 01:29:15,519
Speaker 2: want to kick Palestiness out of count Jews don't care

2064
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 2: about the Gaza Strip. They want to kick people out

2065
01:29:17,120 --> 01:29:19,479
Speaker 2: of Judereica, Juda and Samaria. That's what you just really

2066
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:21,560
Speaker 2: care about. It's that encroachment into the West Bank and

2067
01:29:21,560 --> 01:29:23,519
Speaker 2: we're not even talking about that anymore because everybody thinks

2068
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:25,040
Speaker 2: that apparently they want to put settlements back on the

2069
01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:28,599
Speaker 2: Gaza Strip, which historically Israel's never even cared about. So yeah,

2070
01:29:28,840 --> 01:29:31,120
Speaker 2: I mean Hamas has to go. I would hope that

2071
01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:33,880
Speaker 2: the blockade and the conditions are lessened there, but there

2072
01:29:33,920 --> 01:29:37,080
Speaker 2: has to be huge pressure on Israel and the Palestinians.

2073
01:29:37,240 --> 01:29:38,840
Speaker 2: There has to be huge pressure on both sides to

2074
01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:41,360
Speaker 2: reach some peaceful, long term agreement because until that happens,

2075
01:29:41,479 --> 01:29:42,680
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just going to happen over and over

2076
01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:43,960
Speaker 2: and over again. It's in nobody's surprise.

2077
01:29:44,320 --> 01:29:46,240
Speaker 4: So just when we speak about hostages, I think it's

2078
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:48,479
Speaker 4: important to note that Israel rounded up tens of thousands

2079
01:29:48,520 --> 01:29:50,720
Speaker 4: of Palestinians, at least thousands, I don't want to say

2080
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:53,840
Speaker 4: to tens of thousands, but thousands of them after October seven.

2081
01:29:53,920 --> 01:29:57,680
Speaker 4: They are being brutalized in Israeli detention facilities. Dozens of

2082
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:00,600
Speaker 4: them have been killed, many more have required amputae, and

2083
01:30:00,840 --> 01:30:03,280
Speaker 4: the reports of the torture, of the sexual abuse. All

2084
01:30:03,320 --> 01:30:05,559
Speaker 4: this stuff is happening, and you don't get a fraction

2085
01:30:06,040 --> 01:30:08,799
Speaker 4: of attention to Palestinian hostages being held by Israel compared

2086
01:30:08,800 --> 01:30:12,479
Speaker 4: to the conditions that Israeli hostages are enduring in Gaza,

2087
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:15,080
Speaker 4: which are unknown. And on top of that, you have

2088
01:30:15,120 --> 01:30:17,320
Speaker 4: an Israeli policy of insisting on this path of vengeance

2089
01:30:17,320 --> 01:30:20,160
Speaker 4: in which they have killed infinitely more Israeli hostages than

2090
01:30:20,200 --> 01:30:22,960
Speaker 4: they have rescued, and to continue down this path. It's

2091
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:26,120
Speaker 4: quite obvious that the Israeli government and NATANIELO himself does

2092
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:29,120
Speaker 4: not give a crap about Israeli hostages. So just keeping

2093
01:30:29,200 --> 01:30:31,840
Speaker 4: that in the back of mind now when we're talking

2094
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:34,840
Speaker 4: about peace, and it's funny. The reason why I wanted

2095
01:30:34,880 --> 01:30:36,040
Speaker 4: to point out that you've said a lot of things

2096
01:30:36,080 --> 01:30:37,519
Speaker 4: that are actually correct, but you're just kind of like

2097
01:30:37,600 --> 01:30:40,080
Speaker 4: missed a key part of it is that, yes, the

2098
01:30:40,160 --> 01:30:43,080
Speaker 4: longer this conflict goes, Palestinians do lose more and more,

2099
01:30:43,360 --> 01:30:45,400
Speaker 4: and Israel sees that as an advantage. Every day the

2100
01:30:45,439 --> 01:30:47,000
Speaker 4: conflict goes on, they get to take more and more

2101
01:30:47,040 --> 01:30:48,960
Speaker 4: of the West Bank, they get to entrench their control

2102
01:30:49,040 --> 01:30:51,160
Speaker 4: of it. And that's why we desperately need an intervention.

2103
01:30:51,280 --> 01:30:52,720
Speaker 4: And if Israel's not going to do it itself, you

2104
01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:55,400
Speaker 4: need it from the outside the way to defeat Hamas.

2105
01:30:55,439 --> 01:30:57,400
Speaker 4: If we're serious about not wanting Hamas to be in power.

2106
01:30:57,680 --> 01:31:02,640
Speaker 4: It's extremely simple. Give Palestinian a path to freedom and

2107
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:06,200
Speaker 4: they will take it, rather than be driven by despair

2108
01:31:06,280 --> 01:31:08,479
Speaker 4: into supporting groups that insist on doing it the most

2109
01:31:08,600 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 4: violent way possible. The truth is Palestinians tried it with

2110
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:14,320
Speaker 4: a marcher return, They've tried it with negotiations with Israel.

2111
01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:17,080
Speaker 4: They've gone to the UN. The US keeps vetoing every

2112
01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:19,160
Speaker 4: UN resolution that is critical of Israel. They've gone to

2113
01:31:19,200 --> 01:31:21,960
Speaker 4: the International Court of Justice, the ICC. The US keeps

2114
01:31:21,960 --> 01:31:24,000
Speaker 4: putting pressure on the ICC and had to prosecute Israel

2115
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:26,160
Speaker 4: for crimes. And then when people try to do international

2116
01:31:26,240 --> 01:31:29,200
Speaker 4: solidarity in boycotts, people call that economic terrorism. And you

2117
01:31:29,240 --> 01:31:32,400
Speaker 4: have American politicians trying to pass laws. Just every single

2118
01:31:32,479 --> 01:31:35,840
Speaker 4: method of resistance has been completely quashed, and civil disobedience

2119
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:39,479
Speaker 4: in Palestine was extremely common against the apartheid barrier that

2120
01:31:39,560 --> 01:31:42,840
Speaker 4: Israel's building throughout the West Bank, and all these people

2121
01:31:42,880 --> 01:31:45,240
Speaker 4: are basically just end up languishing and is reeally prisons.

2122
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:47,519
Speaker 3: You've left Palestinines no avenue.

2123
01:31:47,560 --> 01:31:50,400
Speaker 4: And if you want to be serious about defeating more

2124
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:53,200
Speaker 4: radical organizations that are committed to violence, all you have

2125
01:31:53,280 --> 01:31:55,519
Speaker 4: to do is give Palestinians a path to freedom that

2126
01:31:55,560 --> 01:31:57,360
Speaker 4: does not pushed them in the arms of people who

2127
01:31:57,439 --> 01:32:00,360
Speaker 4: insist that fighting is the only way that has to

2128
01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:04,200
Speaker 4: be stopping US military funding for the Israeli occupation. This

2129
01:32:04,320 --> 01:32:08,800
Speaker 4: occupation is illegitimate, it's indefensible. It's clearly intended to be permanent,

2130
01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:11,120
Speaker 4: and Taniyajo has said so. The way it appears on

2131
01:32:11,160 --> 01:32:13,360
Speaker 4: the ground is not some kind of like temporary thing.

2132
01:32:13,439 --> 01:32:16,240
Speaker 4: We're just holding off until every day they're taking more

2133
01:32:16,280 --> 01:32:17,040
Speaker 4: and more of the West Bank.

2134
01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:17,720
Speaker 3: That is what they're doing.

2135
01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:20,960
Speaker 4: They're demolishing Palestinian homes, they're pushing Palestinians out of certain

2136
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:23,479
Speaker 4: areas that Israel wants, just the entrenchment of it. We're

2137
01:32:23,520 --> 01:32:26,120
Speaker 4: watching it unfolding, and there should not be another penny

2138
01:32:26,200 --> 01:32:29,320
Speaker 4: spent in support of the Israeli military until that occupation

2139
01:32:29,400 --> 01:32:31,559
Speaker 4: comes to an end. And that's how you can put

2140
01:32:31,640 --> 01:32:33,839
Speaker 4: Israel finally in a position where they have an incentive

2141
01:32:34,240 --> 01:32:38,000
Speaker 4: to start negotiating in good faith, seeing Palestinians as equal

2142
01:32:38,080 --> 01:32:38,439
Speaker 4: human beings.

2143
01:32:38,920 --> 01:32:41,639
Speaker 1: Paradoxically, I think that that actually would be a boost

2144
01:32:42,400 --> 01:32:45,760
Speaker 1: to Israeli society because under the current Israeli politics, you

2145
01:32:45,880 --> 01:32:48,560
Speaker 1: have some who say, we need to compromise. You know,

2146
01:32:49,240 --> 01:32:50,880
Speaker 1: we live here, they live here, We're all going to

2147
01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:53,280
Speaker 1: live here, you know, for hundreds of years. We need

2148
01:32:53,320 --> 01:32:55,800
Speaker 1: to come to some deal. And then you have a

2149
01:32:55,840 --> 01:32:59,599
Speaker 1: faction in Israeli society that says, no, we don't because

2150
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:03,000
Speaker 1: we have on conditional US support militarily and politically, so

2151
01:33:03,240 --> 01:33:08,040
Speaker 1: we'll we can just permanently quote unquote manage the conflict.

2152
01:33:08,240 --> 01:33:10,000
Speaker 1: And voters look at that and they say, well, it's

2153
01:33:10,040 --> 01:33:12,880
Speaker 1: true the US does unconditionally support, so why should we

2154
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:16,360
Speaker 1: actually you make any compromises, And it has driven them

2155
01:33:16,400 --> 01:33:20,040
Speaker 1: into this this cul to stack that is potentially suicidal

2156
01:33:20,120 --> 01:33:21,040
Speaker 1: for the entire project.

2157
01:33:21,240 --> 01:33:23,880
Speaker 2: I think the issue is that people don't realize that

2158
01:33:24,120 --> 01:33:27,800
Speaker 2: the way that Israeli opinion flipped so hard on peace

2159
01:33:27,840 --> 01:33:31,639
Speaker 2: for Palestinians was after the Second Antefada that completely mind

2160
01:33:31,720 --> 01:33:34,479
Speaker 2: destroyed so many Israeli people. When they saw so many

2161
01:33:34,560 --> 01:33:38,559
Speaker 2: Palestinians across the entire country engaging in violence against Israeli people,

2162
01:33:38,720 --> 01:33:40,439
Speaker 2: a lot of them were like this is like this

2163
01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:44,040
Speaker 2: is apparently these people just don't ever want peace. After that,

2164
01:33:44,439 --> 01:33:46,519
Speaker 2: I think that that's when you saw the government start

2165
01:33:46,560 --> 01:33:48,960
Speaker 2: to shift a lot to the right, and the issue

2166
01:33:49,040 --> 01:33:51,120
Speaker 2: is that you just it doesn't feel like there has

2167
01:33:51,200 --> 01:33:53,800
Speaker 2: been that Palestinian leader that's been ready to come up

2168
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:59,240
Speaker 2: and actually make brave concessions or strong concessions, because every

2169
01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:01,320
Speaker 2: deal with the Palestinian feels like a concession was not

2170
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:04,479
Speaker 2: all of Israel. I just don't think Palestinians all.

2171
01:34:04,520 --> 01:34:06,640
Speaker 4: The occupied territory is just to be technically which the

2172
01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:10,519
Speaker 4: West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem the internationally recognized occupied

2173
01:34:10,560 --> 01:34:13,200
Speaker 4: territories that Israel has to withdraw from. That's what Arafad

2174
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:15,040
Speaker 4: has said, and that's what Abasa said. I'm a fan

2175
01:34:15,080 --> 01:34:17,599
Speaker 4: of neither of these men, but they're not the obstacle

2176
01:34:17,640 --> 01:34:19,200
Speaker 4: to peace. They made very clear that they would accept

2177
01:34:19,200 --> 01:34:21,680
Speaker 4: the deal if Israel actually ended the occupation in Israel.

2178
01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:24,840
Speaker 2: Never accepted a deal. Of course, he has no deal.

2179
01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:27,120
Speaker 2: There are no deals on the table. The deal are

2180
01:34:27,120 --> 01:34:29,880
Speaker 2: the table deals left on the table where the policinems

2181
01:34:29,880 --> 01:34:31,040
Speaker 2: like we would just have accept I.

2182
01:34:32,479 --> 01:34:34,680
Speaker 4: Happened to be familiar with a private conversation between Bill

2183
01:34:34,720 --> 01:34:36,920
Speaker 4: Clinton and somebody that I know, an advocate, in which

2184
01:34:36,960 --> 01:34:40,120
Speaker 4: Bill Clinton said that Arafad just kept saying, twenty two

2185
01:34:40,160 --> 01:34:42,240
Speaker 4: percent is my offer, and Bill Clinton had no idea

2186
01:34:42,280 --> 01:34:44,280
Speaker 4: what he was talking about, and the person who was

2187
01:34:44,320 --> 01:34:45,840
Speaker 4: talking to him explain to him, twenty two percent is

2188
01:34:45,880 --> 01:34:48,240
Speaker 4: the percentage of the land that is illegally occupied by Israel,

2189
01:34:48,439 --> 01:34:50,800
Speaker 4: Arafad was telling you. And the occupation of the West

2190
01:34:50,840 --> 01:34:54,000
Speaker 4: Bank Goz in East Jerusalem. That was the counter offer repeatedly.

2191
01:34:53,800 --> 01:34:56,960
Speaker 3: In Israel has never it has what do you It's

2192
01:34:57,000 --> 01:34:58,759
Speaker 3: the entire basis of the peace process.

2193
01:34:59,320 --> 01:35:02,200
Speaker 2: That was not two thousand, No, absolutely now that they

2194
01:35:02,400 --> 01:35:05,759
Speaker 2: verified in nineteen in the late eighties recognized Israel.

2195
01:35:05,880 --> 01:35:09,160
Speaker 4: So he effectively conceded Israel on seventy eight percent of

2196
01:35:09,280 --> 01:35:12,639
Speaker 4: historic Palestine as legally defined, yes, yes, and Israel then

2197
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:14,280
Speaker 4: if well, if you wanted to call his bluff, all

2198
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:15,720
Speaker 4: you have to do is end the occupation and see

2199
01:35:15,720 --> 01:35:18,639
Speaker 4: what happens. But Israel didn't. Israel entrench the occupation. That's

2200
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:21,519
Speaker 4: the pattern. And you're also missing something about the regional dynamic.

2201
01:35:21,560 --> 01:35:23,240
Speaker 4: You're talking about the Abraham Accords and all of that.

2202
01:35:24,040 --> 01:35:26,560
Speaker 4: Just to be clear, the entire Arab world. First, it

2203
01:35:26,640 --> 01:35:28,840
Speaker 4: was Saudi Arabia put on the table something called the

2204
01:35:28,880 --> 01:35:31,759
Speaker 4: Arab Peace Initiative effectively and the occupation.

2205
01:35:31,880 --> 01:35:34,760
Speaker 3: It'll get recognition from US. Nope, and then wait, what was.

2206
01:35:34,800 --> 01:35:36,720
Speaker 2: The huge part? Wait, what was the huge part of

2207
01:35:36,760 --> 01:35:38,479
Speaker 2: the Arab peace initiative? You're not bringing up there?

2208
01:35:38,640 --> 01:35:39,080
Speaker 3: You tell me.

2209
01:35:39,479 --> 01:35:41,719
Speaker 2: It was the infinite right of return for every single

2210
01:35:42,960 --> 01:35:47,479
Speaker 2: Palestini refuge You're confused about the negotiating No, no, no,

2211
01:35:47,600 --> 01:35:49,320
Speaker 2: that's a non negotiable. That was one of the reasons.

2212
01:35:49,360 --> 01:35:52,240
Speaker 2: Why why why the after Camp David or missing, after

2213
01:35:52,240 --> 01:35:54,439
Speaker 2: the Clint parameters, after Taba Summit. That was the stamous

2214
01:35:54,479 --> 01:35:56,240
Speaker 2: leak in rejection of the Clint parameters where they said,

2215
01:35:56,800 --> 01:35:59,760
Speaker 2: as negotiators will never give up your ran of era.

2216
01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:02,759
Speaker 3: You are want what was offered?

2217
01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:04,600
Speaker 4: What was offered in that Rapeace initiative? First of a

2218
01:36:04,640 --> 01:36:06,479
Speaker 4: Saudium that it became the ar League. It said a

2219
01:36:06,680 --> 01:36:09,200
Speaker 4: just resolution to the Palestinian refugees, which is always and

2220
01:36:09,360 --> 01:36:11,320
Speaker 4: that phrasing, No, it has not always meant that that

2221
01:36:11,439 --> 01:36:13,640
Speaker 4: phrasing was specifically designed. When we talk about a two

2222
01:36:13,680 --> 01:36:16,080
Speaker 4: state solution and a just resolution to the refugee issue,

2223
01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:18,120
Speaker 4: it's not saying and the full ride of return that

2224
01:36:18,360 --> 01:36:20,839
Speaker 4: is considered a Palestinie compromise, like many Palestinians are unhappy

2225
01:36:20,880 --> 01:36:22,360
Speaker 4: with it. On the grounds that it doesn't say the

2226
01:36:22,400 --> 01:36:24,880
Speaker 4: full riud of return. It only since it is a

2227
01:36:25,000 --> 01:36:28,320
Speaker 4: just resolution, one one in which it's understood that you

2228
01:36:28,360 --> 01:36:30,679
Speaker 4: would allow for a two state situation to happen, means

2229
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:33,519
Speaker 4: Israel recognizes that they drove those Palestinians out, a small

2230
01:36:33,560 --> 01:36:35,880
Speaker 4: symbolic number gets to return to Israel proper, and then

2231
01:36:35,920 --> 01:36:37,679
Speaker 4: the majority of them end up in a Palestinian state.

2232
01:36:37,880 --> 01:36:38,679
Speaker 3: That was the loose.

2233
01:36:38,560 --> 01:36:40,519
Speaker 2: Formula that if you look at it was offered in

2234
01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:42,519
Speaker 2: two thousand that it was not what was offered into

2235
01:36:42,560 --> 01:36:44,519
Speaker 2: that literally was there was an international fund that is

2236
01:36:44,560 --> 01:36:46,559
Speaker 2: what was going to contribute to. There was some number

2237
01:36:46,920 --> 01:36:49,160
Speaker 2: I saw anywhere from ten to one hundred thousand. I

2238
01:36:49,160 --> 01:36:50,479
Speaker 2: don't know what the actually was. There some number that.

2239
01:36:50,439 --> 01:36:53,360
Speaker 3: There always entered the occupation. That's basically what Palestinians had

2240
01:36:53,400 --> 01:36:53,840
Speaker 3: been asking for.

2241
01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:55,760
Speaker 4: And if you look at actual details of it, and

2242
01:36:55,800 --> 01:36:57,800
Speaker 4: I'm happy again to tweet about it afterwards'm happy to

2243
01:36:57,840 --> 01:36:59,560
Speaker 4: send you all the links that you need, that was

2244
01:36:59,640 --> 01:37:01,360
Speaker 4: what the Latian official position was.

2245
01:37:03,080 --> 01:37:03,360
Speaker 3: Actually.

2246
01:37:04,200 --> 01:37:05,760
Speaker 1: Let me just respond to one of the things that

2247
01:37:06,479 --> 01:37:08,400
Speaker 1: the point that you made earlier in the form of

2248
01:37:08,439 --> 01:37:10,560
Speaker 1: a question that a lot of people I've seen it

2249
01:37:10,600 --> 01:37:12,560
Speaker 1: out there, So I think it's worth kind of trying

2250
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:16,320
Speaker 1: to answer directly, said, it can't be a genocide because

2251
01:37:16,360 --> 01:37:20,280
Speaker 1: they've only killed thirty three thousand people. You know, if

2252
01:37:20,320 --> 01:37:22,960
Speaker 1: they wanted to do a full genocide, they have the capacity,

2253
01:37:23,040 --> 01:37:24,160
Speaker 1: they have the bombs.

2254
01:37:23,920 --> 01:37:25,719
Speaker 2: To kill all two million plus people.

2255
01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:29,880
Speaker 5: So a argument, but five of their population, right.

2256
01:37:29,560 --> 01:37:32,720
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't they do it? And so one you'd say, well,

2257
01:37:32,760 --> 01:37:36,720
Speaker 1: thirteen thousand children far too many. But you know, more

2258
01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:39,519
Speaker 1: more importantly than that, you would say they they've killed

2259
01:37:39,600 --> 01:37:41,400
Speaker 1: the number that they can sort of get away with

2260
01:37:41,600 --> 01:37:42,120
Speaker 1: at this point.

2261
01:37:42,200 --> 01:37:44,760
Speaker 2: But the goal is not killing in death.

2262
01:37:44,920 --> 01:37:49,439
Speaker 1: The goal is domination and the ethnic cleansing of the region,

2263
01:37:49,479 --> 01:37:52,960
Speaker 1: the clearing out, the thinning out of the population. And

2264
01:37:53,040 --> 01:37:56,760
Speaker 1: so you don't actually need to kill two million Palestinians

2265
01:37:56,800 --> 01:37:59,680
Speaker 1: if you can drive hundreds of thousands of them to

2266
01:38:00,080 --> 01:38:00,719
Speaker 1: their countries.

2267
01:38:02,400 --> 01:38:04,880
Speaker 2: If you're talking about genocide, you have a genesip with

2268
01:38:04,920 --> 01:38:08,160
Speaker 2: one hundred people. Theoretically, the number of people killed isn't important.

2269
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:10,080
Speaker 2: The intention is important. But it's hard to make an

2270
01:38:10,160 --> 01:38:13,720
Speaker 2: argument for genocide. Setting aside genocide, Oh sure, well, I

2271
01:38:13,800 --> 01:38:16,800
Speaker 2: mean like the attacks happened in response to that, would

2272
01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:18,599
Speaker 2: that would be the answer to the question, why haven't

2273
01:38:18,600 --> 01:38:19,320
Speaker 2: they killed more?

2274
01:38:19,960 --> 01:38:20,120
Speaker 3: Yeah?

2275
01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:22,519
Speaker 2: I guess, but the problem is just absent. Any there

2276
01:38:22,680 --> 01:38:26,240
Speaker 2: just isn't strong. It's the weirdest genocide ever. If you're

2277
01:38:26,320 --> 01:38:28,640
Speaker 2: dropping leaflets saying, hey, flee to the south, most of

2278
01:38:28,640 --> 01:38:30,320
Speaker 2: the military tip is going to come to north, or hey,

2279
01:38:30,560 --> 01:38:32,479
Speaker 2: we're working with fifty two organizations. Try to open up

2280
01:38:32,479 --> 01:38:36,400
Speaker 2: boarders is generally in the south. Why why did they

2281
01:38:36,880 --> 01:38:42,040
Speaker 2: bomb the north? Everywhere? No amass like military strongholder has

2282
01:38:42,080 --> 01:38:44,320
Speaker 2: always been the South. Why did they go to the

2283
01:38:44,560 --> 01:38:46,920
Speaker 2: thought there were literally nine hundred people that they happened

2284
01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:48,759
Speaker 2: to this, by the way, what happened to that three story,

2285
01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:51,680
Speaker 2: three D rendering of a command center that we saw

2286
01:38:51,760 --> 01:38:53,960
Speaker 2: under a Schiffa hospital, the one with the you mean

2287
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:55,840
Speaker 2: the one where they released the footage of the massive

2288
01:38:55,880 --> 01:38:57,000
Speaker 2: tunnel the bomb shelter.

2289
01:38:57,320 --> 01:38:59,680
Speaker 1: There are tunnels, yeah, in Gaza, But where was the

2290
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:02,240
Speaker 1: command center we're all told existed.

2291
01:39:02,360 --> 01:39:04,599
Speaker 2: I don't When you're saying command center, are you looking

2292
01:39:04,640 --> 01:39:08,080
Speaker 2: for like a one? I'm not the one that intelligence

2293
01:39:08,120 --> 01:39:09,880
Speaker 2: has corroborated everything that is real said and they said

2294
01:39:09,880 --> 01:39:12,880
Speaker 2: they arrived at Oh that's nice of it was intelligence. Well, listen,

2295
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:15,439
Speaker 2: if you can believe Russias instead of the United States,

2296
01:39:17,040 --> 01:39:19,000
Speaker 2: I can't. I can't help hold on if you want

2297
01:39:19,000 --> 01:39:21,240
Speaker 2: to believe paul On. Actually wait, I'm curious if Hamas

2298
01:39:21,320 --> 01:39:23,679
Speaker 2: were to make a statement about a particular thing, would

2299
01:39:23,680 --> 01:39:26,080
Speaker 2: you believe that more than the United States? And the

2300
01:39:26,120 --> 01:39:28,760
Speaker 2: idea of corroborating their statements? Who would you believe more

2301
01:39:28,800 --> 01:39:28,960
Speaker 2: on that?

2302
01:39:29,120 --> 01:39:30,360
Speaker 3: I don't think you can trust either of them.

2303
01:39:30,360 --> 01:39:32,360
Speaker 2: That's why you look, you think it's equal amounts of trust.

2304
01:39:32,640 --> 01:39:34,439
Speaker 3: I think yes, that's about distrust.

2305
01:39:35,120 --> 01:39:39,800
Speaker 2: That's unbelievably because because we believe governments generated hold on,

2306
01:39:40,200 --> 01:39:41,720
Speaker 2: who do you trust then? For your for a third

2307
01:39:41,760 --> 01:39:42,519
Speaker 2: party verification?

2308
01:39:42,720 --> 01:39:45,120
Speaker 3: Human rights organizations were re report.

2309
01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:46,640
Speaker 2: Things from the idea f and from Hamasy.

2310
01:39:47,040 --> 01:39:49,200
Speaker 3: Look, and they do independent investigations as well, and they

2311
01:39:49,240 --> 01:39:49,759
Speaker 3: do comparison.

2312
01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:52,400
Speaker 2: They're independent investors. Have you ever read how they actually

2313
01:39:52,400 --> 01:39:54,040
Speaker 2: come up with the numbers. They'll call a hospital and say,

2314
01:39:54,040 --> 01:39:55,559
Speaker 2: what's your list of people that are dead? And then

2315
01:39:55,560 --> 01:39:56,840
Speaker 2: they look at the register and they go, oh, well,

2316
01:39:56,840 --> 01:39:58,320
Speaker 2: it seems like the names exist, and then they write it.

2317
01:39:58,479 --> 01:39:58,720
Speaker 2: That's it.

2318
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:01,080
Speaker 4: It's the same thing that you do with polling and

2319
01:40:01,160 --> 01:40:03,800
Speaker 4: population counting and stuff. You take samples, and based on

2320
01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:06,160
Speaker 4: that you extrapolate. You can't go and investigate every single

2321
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:07,160
Speaker 4: last thing that happens.

2322
01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:08,680
Speaker 2: Doing sample working all that that would be interest. That's

2323
01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:10,320
Speaker 2: not what they do. If you read how these engines

2324
01:40:10,360 --> 01:40:12,439
Speaker 2: actually then they include their methodlogyally you can read it.

2325
01:40:12,439 --> 01:40:14,439
Speaker 2: They'll say we contact they'll say this has been third

2326
01:40:14,439 --> 01:40:17,439
Speaker 2: party investigator. Hamas has ten thousand. But also these guys

2327
01:40:17,680 --> 01:40:20,400
Speaker 2: actually third party verified. And then when you read their methodology,

2328
01:40:20,560 --> 01:40:22,439
Speaker 2: say we contacted the gods and help indistry and that

2329
01:40:22,439 --> 01:40:23,080
Speaker 2: they told us as.

2330
01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:24,840
Speaker 3: Like you know, I mean, always interesting.

2331
01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:26,840
Speaker 4: And you know what's really interesting is that every time

2332
01:40:26,840 --> 01:40:29,280
Speaker 4: the human rights organizations try to go and investigate, Hamass says,

2333
01:40:29,280 --> 01:40:31,320
Speaker 4: we welcome a full investigation, and vidital like government tries

2334
01:40:31,320 --> 01:40:32,840
Speaker 4: to block human rights organization.

2335
01:40:32,640 --> 01:40:34,560
Speaker 2: They welcome a full investigation. This is when this is

2336
01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:36,840
Speaker 2: an internationally. Are there to interview people and they say,

2337
01:40:36,880 --> 01:40:38,280
Speaker 2: some of them are kind of nervous to talk to us.

2338
01:40:38,360 --> 01:40:41,120
Speaker 2: Why isn't a mass opening our gives so that we

2339
01:40:41,160 --> 01:40:42,560
Speaker 2: can externally validate what's going on?

2340
01:40:42,680 --> 01:40:45,080
Speaker 3: That nonsense? Use pew is just what did I just say?

2341
01:40:45,080 --> 01:40:45,679
Speaker 2: That was nonsense.

2342
01:40:45,720 --> 01:40:48,839
Speaker 3: Hamas has reported on multiple occasions that they have basically

2343
01:40:49,080 --> 01:40:51,160
Speaker 3: verified the credibility of the people who are talking to

2344
01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:54,360
Speaker 3: them that they are talking to because they have been willing.

2345
01:40:54,120 --> 01:40:56,439
Speaker 4: To criticize Hamas and say, we disagree with Hamass doing,

2346
01:40:56,479 --> 01:40:57,839
Speaker 4: we disagree with the firing or prockets.

2347
01:40:57,960 --> 01:40:59,280
Speaker 3: They are brutal, they are repressive.

2348
01:40:59,439 --> 01:41:01,560
Speaker 4: So they talked to Palestinians who are perfectly willing to

2349
01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:04,000
Speaker 4: criticize Hamas for being terrible. But then they say, but

2350
01:41:04,080 --> 01:41:05,639
Speaker 4: it's not true that they were hiding in our house

2351
01:41:05,800 --> 01:41:08,360
Speaker 4: or used human shields or whatever. So that's how you

2352
01:41:08,479 --> 01:41:11,000
Speaker 4: know that when you compare those narratives, it's these really

2353
01:41:11,080 --> 01:41:12,320
Speaker 4: narrative that is completely baseline.

2354
01:41:12,360 --> 01:41:15,160
Speaker 2: Do you acknowledge it? I have somebody that real quick

2355
01:41:15,160 --> 01:41:17,479
Speaker 2: you acknowledge that AMST International has said that they store

2356
01:41:17,840 --> 01:41:20,639
Speaker 2: munitions in houses. I'll take on to that. I'll take

2357
01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:22,360
Speaker 2: on to that. So very important.

2358
01:41:22,560 --> 01:41:24,599
Speaker 5: This is from earlier this month, an interrogation of an

2359
01:41:24,680 --> 01:41:27,600
Speaker 5: Islamic Jahad fighter. And I'm genuinely curious. This is not

2360
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:30,040
Speaker 5: a leading question at all asked by the interrogator of

2361
01:41:30,120 --> 01:41:34,519
Speaker 5: the Islamic israelly interrogator of the Islamic And that's why

2362
01:41:34,520 --> 01:41:39,639
Speaker 5: I'm asking. Yeah, in Israel's attention torture asks which hospitals Islamic,

2363
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:42,800
Speaker 5: Jahad and Hamas operate in. He says, all of the

2364
01:41:42,920 --> 01:41:47,240
Speaker 5: hospitals now omar to Ryan's point, what's your response, Yeah, I.

2365
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:49,280
Speaker 4: Mean just when you look at the levels of torture

2366
01:41:49,320 --> 01:41:51,400
Speaker 4: that happened inside Israeli, the detention, it's just you can't

2367
01:41:51,439 --> 01:41:53,160
Speaker 4: take anything in base value of what comes out of

2368
01:41:53,200 --> 01:41:55,280
Speaker 4: any confessions that come out from people are being interrogated

2369
01:41:55,320 --> 01:41:58,080
Speaker 4: by Israel, and so that to me is completely meaningless. Yes,

2370
01:41:58,160 --> 01:41:59,800
Speaker 4: if you put me in his really interrogation center on

2371
01:41:59,840 --> 01:42:02,040
Speaker 4: my also confessed to whatever the hell these were the military?

2372
01:42:03,120 --> 01:42:05,680
Speaker 2: Do you acknowledge that Al Shifa Hospital was inhabited by

2373
01:42:05,720 --> 01:42:07,360
Speaker 2: a fun ton of fighters a month ago when they

2374
01:42:07,400 --> 01:42:08,200
Speaker 2: did that massive in.

2375
01:42:08,200 --> 01:42:10,200
Speaker 3: Habit of buy a ton of fighters? I think I

2376
01:42:10,240 --> 01:42:10,920
Speaker 3: can't verify.

2377
01:42:10,960 --> 01:42:12,880
Speaker 5: And they were not inhabited by any fighters.

2378
01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:13,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, there were nine.

2379
01:42:15,520 --> 01:42:18,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, And there were there were mass graves and near

2380
01:42:18,360 --> 01:42:20,400
Speaker 4: the unless or hospital that were filled with people who

2381
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:20,880
Speaker 4: are wearing.

2382
01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:23,639
Speaker 2: One set where people have been buried there four months earlier.

2383
01:42:24,200 --> 01:42:26,720
Speaker 3: They're hands tied behind their back, zip tied. Can you

2384
01:42:26,800 --> 01:42:28,400
Speaker 3: can you explain to me what threat people who.

2385
01:42:28,320 --> 01:42:35,040
Speaker 2: Have zero actual and totally by people that were Geolocator

2386
01:42:35,120 --> 01:42:37,120
Speaker 2: is an ocent account on Twitter that like has looked

2387
01:42:37,120 --> 01:42:38,240
Speaker 2: at a ton of videos. You can go and you

2388
01:42:38,280 --> 01:42:39,360
Speaker 2: can look through every single video.

2389
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:41,639
Speaker 3: Two is who debunked those?

2390
01:42:42,320 --> 01:42:44,080
Speaker 2: Is that is that we're doing to buy a Twitter account?

2391
01:42:44,240 --> 01:42:46,160
Speaker 2: You can look at all the videos yourself. If you don't,

2392
01:42:46,160 --> 01:42:47,680
Speaker 2: you don't trust the id F, You don't trust the

2393
01:42:47,760 --> 01:42:49,280
Speaker 2: United States, you don't who do you trust?

2394
01:42:50,000 --> 01:42:53,439
Speaker 4: And trust human rights organizations whose job is to investigate

2395
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:53,880
Speaker 4: these things.

2396
01:42:56,280 --> 01:42:59,000
Speaker 2: I don't think any human rights organizations said one percent

2397
01:42:59,040 --> 01:42:59,880
Speaker 2: we found Ala zero.

2398
01:43:01,600 --> 01:43:03,560
Speaker 4: They can't say it's one percent because Israel will not

2399
01:43:03,640 --> 01:43:04,720
Speaker 4: let them in and they can't actually go on.

2400
01:43:04,720 --> 01:43:07,519
Speaker 2: Ad INURR act ward zone for Al Shifa? Do you

2401
01:43:07,560 --> 01:43:09,880
Speaker 2: acknowledge that there was a huge two week fight there

2402
01:43:09,920 --> 01:43:12,559
Speaker 2: between the IDF and militants, Yes.

2403
01:43:12,479 --> 01:43:13,400
Speaker 3: Near Alzhiva Hospital.

2404
01:43:13,439 --> 01:43:15,200
Speaker 2: I think there was a fight and Al Shifa hospital.

2405
01:43:15,280 --> 01:43:16,719
Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't know that it was inside the hospital.

2406
01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:18,720
Speaker 4: Certainly there were there were horror stories of what was

2407
01:43:18,720 --> 01:43:19,679
Speaker 4: happening inside the hospital.

2408
01:43:20,120 --> 01:43:22,240
Speaker 2: Two weeks fight. You think there were civilians there are

2409
01:43:22,280 --> 01:43:22,679
Speaker 2: two weeks.

2410
01:43:23,120 --> 01:43:26,760
Speaker 5: There's a very clear, I think disconnect here. That is

2411
01:43:26,880 --> 01:43:30,160
Speaker 5: probably a good point to start getting to, not start

2412
01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:33,000
Speaker 5: getting to. But like if we want to wind down here, Stephen,

2413
01:43:33,080 --> 01:43:37,160
Speaker 5: you said that Palestinians fundamentally don't want peace. It sounds

2414
01:43:37,200 --> 01:43:40,920
Speaker 5: to me also Omar, like you think fundamentally the Israeli

2415
01:43:40,960 --> 01:43:43,400
Speaker 5: government as it is right now does not want peace.

2416
01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:45,760
Speaker 5: I think we can both agree that there's civilians in

2417
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:49,240
Speaker 5: the Palestinian territories and in Israel that would like to

2418
01:43:49,360 --> 01:43:50,280
Speaker 5: live in peace.

2419
01:43:50,439 --> 01:43:52,680
Speaker 2: Can I can? I mean, just real quick, if I've

2420
01:43:52,720 --> 01:43:55,960
Speaker 2: said that it's not peace. Nobody wants peace. That's a

2421
01:43:56,040 --> 01:43:57,800
Speaker 2: thing that we say in the West because we have

2422
01:43:57,920 --> 01:44:00,679
Speaker 2: no concept of what anybody's looking for. People want justice.

2423
01:44:01,000 --> 01:44:03,320
Speaker 2: Right in Ukraine, they could end the war right now

2424
01:44:03,760 --> 01:44:06,120
Speaker 2: for peace, but they want their territory. They want justice.

2425
01:44:06,200 --> 01:44:08,280
Speaker 2: Palestinians could say, listen, we're going to go with the

2426
01:44:08,360 --> 01:44:10,240
Speaker 2: whatever plan where we're broken up into twenty enclays and

2427
01:44:10,280 --> 01:44:11,840
Speaker 2: of peace. They don't want peace. They feel like they've

2428
01:44:11,840 --> 01:44:14,840
Speaker 2: been expelled from their homelands with international support or for

2429
01:44:14,920 --> 01:44:17,040
Speaker 2: no reason. They want justice. So to be clear, you

2430
01:44:17,080 --> 01:44:20,280
Speaker 2: want justice, right, they don't want peace? Yes? Well, what

2431
01:44:21,520 --> 01:44:25,200
Speaker 2: does the MLK quote, like the White Matter one that

2432
01:44:25,400 --> 01:44:28,200
Speaker 2: says where some people prefer an uneasy peace or whatever,

2433
01:44:28,360 --> 01:44:32,320
Speaker 2: to an uncomfortable tension or whatever. There's there's ways to

2434
01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:35,200
Speaker 2: make things peaceful, but people want more than that on

2435
01:44:35,280 --> 01:44:36,200
Speaker 2: both sides, and they should.

2436
01:44:36,320 --> 01:44:39,160
Speaker 1: I just think that, and I think it's you in

2437
01:44:39,240 --> 01:44:40,680
Speaker 1: the end agree with the point that I was making,

2438
01:44:40,840 --> 01:44:42,439
Speaker 1: because I haven't heard a counter to it, that the

2439
01:44:42,520 --> 01:44:45,519
Speaker 1: way to defeat the ideology of Hamas is through peace,

2440
01:44:46,120 --> 01:44:46,760
Speaker 1: not through war.

2441
01:44:46,920 --> 01:44:49,040
Speaker 2: It's a Now I will sound racist. I don't want

2442
01:44:49,040 --> 01:44:50,960
Speaker 2: to sound racist. There's a fundamental misunderstanding of the way

2443
01:44:51,000 --> 01:44:53,519
Speaker 2: that Arab states and Arab people in the Middle East

2444
01:44:53,720 --> 01:44:56,680
Speaker 2: view Jews and Israel. And to just assume that being

2445
01:44:57,120 --> 01:44:59,920
Speaker 2: peaceful as then there is a whole mythos, a whole

2446
01:45:00,040 --> 01:45:02,760
Speaker 2: telg This would have been super fascinating to listen to

2447
01:45:02,800 --> 01:45:04,800
Speaker 2: Finkelstein expand on if he was capable of more than

2448
01:45:04,840 --> 01:45:07,960
Speaker 2: insults and atoms. But there is a completely and totally

2449
01:45:08,000 --> 01:45:11,560
Speaker 2: different retelling of history from that region, if from the

2450
01:45:11,640 --> 01:45:14,040
Speaker 2: eighteenies and onwards, and as long as those histories are

2451
01:45:14,120 --> 01:45:16,479
Speaker 2: separate from each other, there is no reconciliation that can ride.

2452
01:45:16,640 --> 01:45:18,800
Speaker 1: I shouldn't even take this seriously. But if Arabs are

2453
01:45:18,840 --> 01:45:21,760
Speaker 1: just fundamentally racist, wait, hold on, I just I mean

2454
01:45:21,800 --> 01:45:24,120
Speaker 1: the citizens that live in these places. If the citizens

2455
01:45:24,160 --> 01:45:26,680
Speaker 1: that live in these places are just fundamentally racist, why

2456
01:45:26,800 --> 01:45:29,240
Speaker 1: is it the case that when peace is close at hand,

2457
01:45:29,640 --> 01:45:34,280
Speaker 1: support for hamas and armed resistance plummets. Because I think

2458
01:45:34,320 --> 01:45:39,080
Speaker 1: that if they're fundamentally just opposed, fundamentally, when they.

2459
01:45:39,080 --> 01:45:42,839
Speaker 2: Look at Israel and the Jewish people there, the view.

2460
01:45:42,680 --> 01:45:44,479
Speaker 1: From a lot of Arabs is why does their view

2461
01:45:44,600 --> 01:45:47,479
Speaker 1: change when peace gets wouldn't one of the opposite if

2462
01:45:47,520 --> 01:45:52,720
Speaker 1: they fundamentally just want to fight with Israel, wouldn't they

2463
01:45:52,840 --> 01:45:57,000
Speaker 1: actually be more blood thirsty as peace approached. Yet, opinion

2464
01:45:57,040 --> 01:46:02,360
Speaker 1: polls consistently show that support for armed resistance plummet as

2465
01:46:02,680 --> 01:46:05,680
Speaker 1: peace becomes more possible. That is the reverse of what

2466
01:46:05,720 --> 01:46:08,880
Speaker 1: would happen if they were fundamentally a violent There's two things.

2467
01:46:08,920 --> 01:46:11,280
Speaker 2: The one you said it correct earlier that even though

2468
01:46:11,320 --> 01:46:13,519
Speaker 2: countries have foreign peace, a lot of the Arab sance

2469
01:46:13,520 --> 01:46:15,920
Speaker 2: countries still don't like Israel and still don't like the Jews.

2470
01:46:16,200 --> 01:46:18,920
Speaker 2: So that's one thing that even through peace, that opinion

2471
01:46:18,960 --> 01:46:20,719
Speaker 2: has remained consistent. You said that that it's.

2472
01:46:20,600 --> 01:46:25,240
Speaker 1: True chomping the bit to normalize with Israel. What these

2473
01:46:25,280 --> 01:46:27,920
Speaker 1: Arab countries are chomping at the bit to normalize. You're

2474
01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:29,000
Speaker 1: going to say it's the leaders.

2475
01:46:29,760 --> 01:46:32,960
Speaker 3: That's true in your case. Also, the contradiction is quite palpable.

2476
01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:35,360
Speaker 4: Which is on the one had everybody in the regions

2477
01:46:35,360 --> 01:46:37,320
Speaker 4: just fed up with the Palestinians and they're just eager

2478
01:46:37,360 --> 01:46:38,439
Speaker 4: to make peace with Israel, And now.

2479
01:46:38,400 --> 01:46:39,840
Speaker 3: It's like the problems that the people in the region

2480
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:40,639
Speaker 3: just don't like Jews.

2481
01:46:41,120 --> 01:46:44,120
Speaker 2: No, which one is it? Well, it's it's both. I

2482
01:46:44,200 --> 01:46:49,200
Speaker 2: think that over time, sure, So one is sometimes brave

2483
01:46:49,280 --> 01:46:51,559
Speaker 2: leaders are the people that are needed to make progress

2484
01:46:51,640 --> 01:46:55,120
Speaker 2: towards peace. This might come in the form justice or peace,

2485
01:46:55,479 --> 01:46:57,320
Speaker 2: towards justice, whatever, towards like.

2486
01:46:58,320 --> 01:47:01,280
Speaker 1: You haven't answered that question though, which when when peace

2487
01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:04,600
Speaker 1: becomes closer. In the moments where there's news that a

2488
01:47:04,680 --> 01:47:08,400
Speaker 1: deal is getting closer, yes, support for armed resistance among

2489
01:47:08,479 --> 01:47:12,080
Speaker 1: Palestinians goes down. Agree, that's the reverse, yes, of what

2490
01:47:12,160 --> 01:47:15,120
Speaker 1: would be the case if they just fundamentally hated Jews

2491
01:47:15,160 --> 01:47:16,360
Speaker 1: and just wanted violence And you have that.

2492
01:47:16,400 --> 01:47:17,840
Speaker 2: We've heard the teas apart. When I say that they

2493
01:47:18,080 --> 01:47:20,439
Speaker 2: fundamentally have these opinions, I don't mean that they want

2494
01:47:20,479 --> 01:47:22,479
Speaker 2: to fight and go to war. Forever. I'm just saying

2495
01:47:22,560 --> 01:47:26,040
Speaker 2: that there is an Arab mythos around Jews that all

2496
01:47:26,120 --> 01:47:28,720
Speaker 2: of them basically believe in in terms of they're in

2497
01:47:28,920 --> 01:47:31,639
Speaker 2: the European transplants that have unlimited support from the West

2498
01:47:31,680 --> 01:47:33,200
Speaker 2: for whatever action they want to do, and they don't

2499
01:47:33,200 --> 01:47:35,439
Speaker 2: belong there, and then there's like a different telling of

2500
01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:37,640
Speaker 2: historical events that have happened. That doesn't mean that he's impossible.

2501
01:47:37,760 --> 01:47:39,080
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that there's not ways to work out.

2502
01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:41,599
Speaker 2: We've seen peace of treaties have happened. They just require

2503
01:47:41,800 --> 01:47:45,280
Speaker 2: very strong leadership and sometimes those leaders even have to

2504
01:47:45,360 --> 01:47:47,719
Speaker 2: pay the price. So for instance, when Saddat made peace

2505
01:47:48,000 --> 01:47:50,320
Speaker 2: with Israel, he was assassinating because they thought it was

2506
01:47:50,360 --> 01:47:53,439
Speaker 2: a Western sellout like and it happened to the to

2507
01:47:53,520 --> 01:47:55,720
Speaker 2: the Israeli leader as well, who was also assassinated for

2508
01:47:56,160 --> 01:47:58,439
Speaker 2: by a fariziois for that peace deal. So peace is possible,

2509
01:47:58,479 --> 01:48:00,719
Speaker 2: It just it takes really strong, great leadership. It Arafat

2510
01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:03,320
Speaker 2: was never that leader. You should feel that especially.

2511
01:48:07,760 --> 01:48:09,880
Speaker 3: Certainly was not a rejectionist. That's fine here, what I

2512
01:48:09,920 --> 01:48:10,559
Speaker 3: want to test.

2513
01:48:10,400 --> 01:48:12,760
Speaker 5: To Omar for closing thoughts, and then we'll go back

2514
01:48:12,800 --> 01:48:13,320
Speaker 5: to you, Stephen.

2515
01:48:13,360 --> 01:48:14,120
Speaker 3: Sure Omar.

2516
01:48:14,560 --> 01:48:17,599
Speaker 4: All right, So when we talk about just just set

2517
01:48:17,680 --> 01:48:22,120
Speaker 4: up the regional dynamic real quick, you have the region

2518
01:48:22,640 --> 01:48:25,759
Speaker 4: in general. The people of the region are extremely furious

2519
01:48:25,760 --> 01:48:28,120
Speaker 4: by the way Israel treats Palestinians. That is the primary

2520
01:48:28,640 --> 01:48:32,559
Speaker 4: reason behind the hostility that exists towards Israel is because

2521
01:48:32,600 --> 01:48:34,400
Speaker 4: people see day in and day out on their TV

2522
01:48:34,520 --> 01:48:36,720
Speaker 4: sets what is happening. Unlike in the United States, where

2523
01:48:36,720 --> 01:48:38,679
Speaker 4: you can barely see that kind of thing on mainstream media.

2524
01:48:38,960 --> 01:48:41,760
Speaker 4: Al Jazeera does broadcast what Israel is doing to Palestinians,

2525
01:48:41,760 --> 01:48:43,800
Speaker 4: and they get a very very clear and accurate view

2526
01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:46,439
Speaker 4: of what Palestinians are suffering under. And so the people

2527
01:48:46,479 --> 01:48:49,000
Speaker 4: in the region are in solidarity with Palestinians against that

2528
01:48:49,080 --> 01:48:52,559
Speaker 4: brutal occupation, against their displacement, the ethnic cleansing and slow

2529
01:48:52,640 --> 01:48:55,200
Speaker 4: motion that happened and in some cases not a slow

2530
01:48:55,240 --> 01:48:58,519
Speaker 4: motion in particular periods in Israel's history. And they see

2531
01:48:58,520 --> 01:49:00,280
Speaker 4: this fundamental injustice day in and day out, on that

2532
01:49:00,360 --> 01:49:02,960
Speaker 4: level of racism, and they're enraged by it. But you

2533
01:49:03,080 --> 01:49:04,960
Speaker 4: also have a lot of governments in the region that

2534
01:49:05,040 --> 01:49:07,320
Speaker 4: are US clients. They're on the US team in the

2535
01:49:07,479 --> 01:49:10,680
Speaker 4: blue sense of the word, and This is uncomfortable for them.

2536
01:49:10,800 --> 01:49:13,240
Speaker 4: They want this conflict to end because they would rather

2537
01:49:13,400 --> 01:49:15,880
Speaker 4: be on better terms with Israel and the United States.

2538
01:49:15,960 --> 01:49:18,599
Speaker 4: They want that dynamic to end, and so they also

2539
01:49:18,960 --> 01:49:22,160
Speaker 4: want this conflict to end, which is why we had

2540
01:49:22,240 --> 01:49:25,479
Speaker 4: things like the Arapeace initiative. They want to see just

2541
01:49:25,600 --> 01:49:27,720
Speaker 4: an end to the occupation. Just give the Palestinian something,

2542
01:49:28,000 --> 01:49:30,759
Speaker 4: can we please like make this work? And Israel faced

2543
01:49:30,800 --> 01:49:33,360
Speaker 4: that with complete and total rejection over and over again,

2544
01:49:33,439 --> 01:49:36,479
Speaker 4: because you have the political end of the political spectrum

2545
01:49:36,520 --> 01:49:39,360
Speaker 4: within Israel right now is just completely off the charts. Yes,

2546
01:49:39,520 --> 01:49:42,599
Speaker 4: you have some super progressive marginal leftists in Israel. You've

2547
01:49:42,600 --> 01:49:44,840
Speaker 4: got the Palestinian citizens of Israel who serve in the

2548
01:49:44,920 --> 01:49:47,080
Speaker 4: Israeli Knesset and so on, and they have.

2549
01:49:49,479 --> 01:49:51,400
Speaker 3: No power effectively in Israeli society.

2550
01:49:51,479 --> 01:49:54,519
Speaker 4: And the bulk of it ranges from the Nataniaho Bank

2551
01:49:54,600 --> 01:49:58,679
Speaker 4: Veer coalition, which is stomp Palestinians until no end, brutalize

2552
01:49:58,720 --> 01:50:01,040
Speaker 4: them in the worst ways possible and hopefully throw them

2553
01:50:01,040 --> 01:50:04,960
Speaker 4: out and finish the Nekba towards the other liberal end

2554
01:50:04,960 --> 01:50:07,120
Speaker 4: of the spectrum in the Israeli sense, which is just

2555
01:50:07,479 --> 01:50:09,920
Speaker 4: maintain permanent and occupation, but let it be a humane occupation.

2556
01:50:10,040 --> 01:50:12,160
Speaker 3: Let's just you know, control them and let everything be fine.

2557
01:50:12,200 --> 01:50:13,639
Speaker 3: And yeah, we do won't give them.

2558
01:50:13,560 --> 01:50:15,360
Speaker 4: Full rights, but they can at least, you know, have

2559
01:50:15,479 --> 01:50:18,320
Speaker 4: some economic activity and whatever normalize a little bit. That's

2560
01:50:18,400 --> 01:50:21,400
Speaker 4: the spectrum, and that spectrum will never allow for peace

2561
01:50:21,439 --> 01:50:24,479
Speaker 4: to exist, because no people anywhere in the world would

2562
01:50:24,479 --> 01:50:27,360
Speaker 4: except to live without the fundamental right to be free.

2563
01:50:27,800 --> 01:50:30,240
Speaker 4: And that's what's missing here. And because you do have

2564
01:50:30,320 --> 01:50:33,320
Speaker 4: a dynamic right now where that cannot peace cannot emerge

2565
01:50:33,400 --> 01:50:37,280
Speaker 4: in direct negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians, because yes, there's

2566
01:50:37,320 --> 01:50:39,160
Speaker 4: a lot of intense feelings right now, but on top

2567
01:50:39,200 --> 01:50:42,160
Speaker 4: of that, there is a significant imbalance of power that

2568
01:50:42,280 --> 01:50:44,080
Speaker 4: if you leave them, you're going to end up with

2569
01:50:44,160 --> 01:50:47,639
Speaker 4: a repeat of previous peace negotiations, which is Israel saying yeah, yeah,

2570
01:50:47,680 --> 01:50:49,479
Speaker 4: let's negotiate, while on the ground they do whatever the

2571
01:50:49,560 --> 01:50:52,280
Speaker 4: hell they want, keep entrenching the occupation, eating up more land,

2572
01:50:52,280 --> 01:50:55,400
Speaker 4: brutalizing Palestinians more but saying hey, we're negotiating. It's just

2573
01:50:55,520 --> 01:50:58,640
Speaker 4: it's all it's all charade, And what you need right

2574
01:50:58,720 --> 01:51:01,760
Speaker 4: now is pressure from the outside. I don't care whether

2575
01:51:01,840 --> 01:51:03,920
Speaker 4: you like Palestinians or hate them, or you think they're

2576
01:51:04,000 --> 01:51:05,600
Speaker 4: this or that, or same with Israeli as it's just

2577
01:51:05,840 --> 01:51:08,559
Speaker 4: it's besides the point. You have a reality right now

2578
01:51:08,600 --> 01:51:11,959
Speaker 4: in which Palestinians are living under a permanent apartheid occupation

2579
01:51:12,080 --> 01:51:14,519
Speaker 4: and apartheid, and this particular episode in Gaza right now

2580
01:51:14,880 --> 01:51:17,600
Speaker 4: is a genocidal episode. As an emergency, we need to

2581
01:51:17,600 --> 01:51:20,599
Speaker 4: put an end to this Gaza episode. But the situation

2582
01:51:20,760 --> 01:51:23,360
Speaker 4: was not acceptable even before the onslaught that is unfolding

2583
01:51:23,400 --> 01:51:26,759
Speaker 4: in Gaza. You have a situation in which Israel denies

2584
01:51:26,760 --> 01:51:28,439
Speaker 4: Palestinians the right to live in their own state and

2585
01:51:28,520 --> 01:51:31,280
Speaker 4: denies them full rights even under the areas that Israel controls.

2586
01:51:31,520 --> 01:51:33,960
Speaker 4: So they're stuck forever either as subject with no rights,

2587
01:51:34,240 --> 01:51:35,920
Speaker 4: and they can either take that and be happy with it,

2588
01:51:36,400 --> 01:51:37,720
Speaker 4: or if they try to fight back in any way,

2589
01:51:37,760 --> 01:51:40,360
Speaker 4: then Israel will just escalate its violence to levels that

2590
01:51:40,840 --> 01:51:43,519
Speaker 4: are absolutely horrific. Those are the choice of the Palestinians face,

2591
01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:47,400
Speaker 4: and it requires external intervention. It requires the world to

2592
01:51:47,520 --> 01:51:50,679
Speaker 4: isolate Israel and say this is not acceptable, This occupation

2593
01:51:50,760 --> 01:51:53,080
Speaker 4: cannot end. You have to end that occupation, and that

2594
01:51:53,200 --> 01:51:55,960
Speaker 4: means that you don't get another penny, no diplomatic relations,

2595
01:51:56,040 --> 01:51:58,720
Speaker 4: no embrace of Israel until there's a change of inn

2596
01:51:58,800 --> 01:52:01,679
Speaker 4: Israeli policy. And when you look at Russia and Ukraine

2597
01:52:01,760 --> 01:52:05,040
Speaker 4: right now, just we've had a very brief episode of that,

2598
01:52:05,160 --> 01:52:07,720
Speaker 4: comparatively speaking, when you compare the two things, there are

2599
01:52:07,800 --> 01:52:10,799
Speaker 4: instances in which Ukraine, for example, I think it was December,

2600
01:52:11,360 --> 01:52:16,000
Speaker 4: fired a rocket at Belgrade and killed a couple of

2601
01:52:16,080 --> 01:52:20,800
Speaker 4: dozen Russian citizens, including three children. If in response to that,

2602
01:52:20,960 --> 01:52:23,360
Speaker 4: the United States said Putin has the right to defend

2603
01:52:23,439 --> 01:52:25,320
Speaker 4: himself and we're going to give him unlimited arms to

2604
01:52:25,400 --> 01:52:28,120
Speaker 4: fight against Ukraine, everybody would just laugh at you instantly,

2605
01:52:28,160 --> 01:52:29,800
Speaker 4: You'd be laughed out of the room because that's such

2606
01:52:29,800 --> 01:52:30,840
Speaker 4: a ridiculous.

2607
01:52:30,439 --> 01:52:33,120
Speaker 3: Thing to say. So pointing at hamass violence and saying

2608
01:52:33,160 --> 01:52:35,519
Speaker 3: that the responses we give Israel unlimited weapons to defend

2609
01:52:35,520 --> 01:52:39,320
Speaker 3: themselves when the broader context is Israel is invading and

2610
01:52:39,400 --> 01:52:42,920
Speaker 3: occupying Palestinians and robbing them their basic rights and brutalizing them.

2611
01:52:43,080 --> 01:52:45,720
Speaker 4: And killing them and imprisoning them and torturing them. That

2612
01:52:45,960 --> 01:52:48,080
Speaker 4: in this context you're going to refer to Israel's right

2613
01:52:48,120 --> 01:52:51,200
Speaker 4: to self defense is a joke. A home intruder who

2614
01:52:51,240 --> 01:52:53,360
Speaker 4: breaks into somebody's home with a gun does not get

2615
01:52:53,400 --> 01:52:55,800
Speaker 4: to claim self defense when they're inside that house. If

2616
01:52:55,840 --> 01:52:58,440
Speaker 4: the people inside that house get to fight back, Palestinians

2617
01:52:58,439 --> 01:53:00,840
Speaker 4: are fighting for their land that Israel is not entitled

2618
01:53:00,880 --> 01:53:03,479
Speaker 4: to taking. Israel does not belong there, and it's time

2619
01:53:03,560 --> 01:53:05,800
Speaker 4: to isolate Israel until that occupation comes to an end.

2620
01:53:06,040 --> 01:53:08,080
Speaker 4: And that's the only path in which we're going to

2621
01:53:08,160 --> 01:53:11,599
Speaker 4: see Israel moderate. The reason why sentiments in Israel are

2622
01:53:11,640 --> 01:53:14,720
Speaker 4: so extreme is because the US has provided complete and

2623
01:53:14,760 --> 01:53:17,960
Speaker 4: total impunity for Israel. Nobody can ever hold Israel accountable

2624
01:53:17,960 --> 01:53:20,240
Speaker 4: for anything they've done because the US ensures that that

2625
01:53:20,240 --> 01:53:23,439
Speaker 4: accountability cannot happen. And that's precisely why we've seen these

2626
01:53:23,479 --> 01:53:26,400
Speaker 4: reel spectro move to an extreme. And in response to

2627
01:53:26,520 --> 01:53:29,360
Speaker 4: that brutal extreme that is imposed on top of Palestinians,

2628
01:53:29,360 --> 01:53:33,080
Speaker 4: we're seeing more extreme views also occurring among Palestinians. The

2629
01:53:33,200 --> 01:53:36,600
Speaker 4: corrective is incredibly obvious and is impossible to miss if

2630
01:53:36,640 --> 01:53:38,880
Speaker 4: you're being intellectually honest and understand what's actually outful.

2631
01:53:38,960 --> 01:53:42,760
Speaker 1: So your last word wouldn't cutting off US military aid

2632
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:47,920
Speaker 1: and blanket unconditional political support push Israel toward to compromise.

2633
01:53:48,040 --> 01:53:49,960
Speaker 2: I don't think we have blanket unconditionals for Rozo. I

2634
01:53:50,000 --> 01:53:51,400
Speaker 2: think they were to do certain things, I think they

2635
01:53:51,439 --> 01:53:55,000
Speaker 2: would lose, they'd lose hit, lose internal support pretty quickly.

2636
01:53:55,479 --> 01:53:56,679
Speaker 2: A lot of the people that you like to quote

2637
01:53:56,720 --> 01:54:00,320
Speaker 2: Harazzer but Salam are literally posted in Israelis or Israeli organizations.

2638
01:54:00,800 --> 01:54:02,320
Speaker 2: Just one thing before my final statement, do you think

2639
01:54:02,360 --> 01:54:04,519
Speaker 2: that October seventh was justified the attack? And do you

2640
01:54:04,520 --> 01:54:05,960
Speaker 2: think civilians were targeted on that day?

2641
01:54:06,160 --> 01:54:08,200
Speaker 4: I mean, if you separate it out, the part where

2642
01:54:08,200 --> 01:54:11,040
Speaker 4: they attacked Israeli military could be construed as an active

2643
01:54:11,040 --> 01:54:13,080
Speaker 4: resistance store, but the part where they attack civilians is

2644
01:54:13,080 --> 01:54:15,760
Speaker 4: completely unjustifiable. Of course they attack civilians. Of course that's

2645
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:17,400
Speaker 4: completely indefensible. So I think that's cool.

2646
01:54:18,360 --> 01:54:20,640
Speaker 2: I think that the I think that the big I

2647
01:54:20,680 --> 01:54:23,200
Speaker 2: think the big issue when this conflict is talked about

2648
01:54:23,320 --> 01:54:25,080
Speaker 2: is that it feels like people only ever want to

2649
01:54:25,120 --> 01:54:28,479
Speaker 2: tell one side of the story. That we can't have

2650
01:54:28,600 --> 01:54:31,120
Speaker 2: a conversation on why does the blockade exist, We can't

2651
01:54:31,160 --> 01:54:33,040
Speaker 2: have a conversation on what does some US do to

2652
01:54:33,160 --> 01:54:35,560
Speaker 2: induce civilian death? Because some US wants civilians to die

2653
01:54:35,560 --> 01:54:38,360
Speaker 2: in Palestine more than Israelis do. Why can't we have

2654
01:54:38,440 --> 01:54:40,000
Speaker 2: a conversation about why, I know you're.

2655
01:54:39,840 --> 01:54:41,320
Speaker 3: Going to get last or you might find inroject on

2656
01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:41,600
Speaker 3: this point.

2657
01:54:42,520 --> 01:54:44,320
Speaker 4: Human rights organizations have also By the way, it was

2658
01:54:44,360 --> 01:54:48,200
Speaker 4: officially Israeli policy to use Palestinian civilians as human shields.

2659
01:54:48,640 --> 01:54:50,440
Speaker 3: They've done it in the West Bank for many arguing

2660
01:54:50,480 --> 01:54:52,280
Speaker 3: they have the legal right to do. Yeah, they were

2661
01:54:52,360 --> 01:54:54,480
Speaker 3: arguing for it. The Israeli Supreme Court bandit, I mean.

2662
01:54:54,560 --> 01:54:56,640
Speaker 2: To do it is rarely supreme crazy ye, hang on,

2663
01:54:56,760 --> 01:54:57,000
Speaker 2: hang on.

2664
01:54:57,200 --> 01:54:59,480
Speaker 3: I'm giving some contest just I think it. Just hear

2665
01:54:59,520 --> 01:54:59,760
Speaker 3: me out.

2666
01:54:59,800 --> 01:55:01,200
Speaker 4: This is I thought that I'm going to piece together

2667
01:55:01,240 --> 01:55:02,480
Speaker 4: that I think will be useful for you to to

2668
01:55:02,480 --> 01:55:03,240
Speaker 4: think about a little bit.

2669
01:55:03,320 --> 01:55:04,680
Speaker 3: Sure it was official policy.

2670
01:55:05,600 --> 01:55:07,280
Speaker 4: There was a case in which a palestine got killed

2671
01:55:07,320 --> 01:55:09,320
Speaker 4: because they do home raids in which the first person

2672
01:55:09,400 --> 01:55:12,080
Speaker 4: knocking of the door is the Palestinian with Israelis like

2673
01:55:12,160 --> 01:55:13,600
Speaker 4: standing behind them with the guns to try to get

2674
01:55:13,640 --> 01:55:15,200
Speaker 4: somebody to come out and cooperate and whatever, and they

2675
01:55:15,200 --> 01:55:18,000
Speaker 4: don't want to be shot at. And when the Israeli

2676
01:55:18,000 --> 01:55:20,480
Speaker 4: Supreme Court tried to ban it, the Israeli military establishment

2677
01:55:20,640 --> 01:55:24,839
Speaker 4: was furious, so this is a really important method of combat.

2678
01:55:25,120 --> 01:55:27,040
Speaker 3: It protects the soldiers' lives. You can't ban it.

2679
01:55:27,160 --> 01:55:30,440
Speaker 4: And you know Israel that basically disregarded what the military

2680
01:55:30,520 --> 01:55:33,720
Speaker 4: establishment said. It was Sho Mofaz who was the defense

2681
01:55:33,760 --> 01:55:35,800
Speaker 4: minister at Israel at the time all of this was happening.

2682
01:55:35,840 --> 01:55:37,840
Speaker 4: I think it was in two thousand and five. And

2683
01:55:38,320 --> 01:55:41,160
Speaker 4: even though the Supreme Court officially banned it, human rights

2684
01:55:41,280 --> 01:55:45,200
Speaker 4: organizations keep catching Israel engaging in acts of holding Palestinians

2685
01:55:45,240 --> 01:55:47,320
Speaker 4: as human shields, and Gaza.

2686
01:55:47,040 --> 01:55:47,840
Speaker 3: And the West bangs it.

2687
01:55:47,960 --> 01:55:50,320
Speaker 4: Just yes, it happened, and you see it like there's

2688
01:55:50,360 --> 01:55:53,080
Speaker 4: footage sometimes of holding a Palestinian with a gun over

2689
01:55:53,160 --> 01:55:53,600
Speaker 4: his shoulder.

2690
01:55:56,280 --> 01:55:59,080
Speaker 3: Which is which is? Which is the point you're making?

2691
01:55:59,240 --> 01:56:00,760
Speaker 3: You're making my point, Yes, very quickly.

2692
01:56:01,720 --> 01:56:05,280
Speaker 4: If the Israeli military things holding Palestinian civilians in front

2693
01:56:05,280 --> 01:56:08,480
Speaker 4: of them where they're fighting with Hamas saves these rarely soldiers' lives,

2694
01:56:08,840 --> 01:56:10,960
Speaker 4: it tells you that they don't believe their own lies

2695
01:56:11,280 --> 01:56:14,520
Speaker 4: about Hamas wanting Palestinian civilians to die, because it would

2696
01:56:14,560 --> 01:56:15,600
Speaker 4: not be useful if that's.

2697
01:56:15,480 --> 01:56:16,120
Speaker 3: What they care.

2698
01:56:17,040 --> 01:56:19,560
Speaker 2: When the idea was using those human shields, how many

2699
01:56:19,920 --> 01:56:22,840
Speaker 2: how many Muslims were killed. How many Palestines were killed

2700
01:56:22,840 --> 01:56:24,240
Speaker 2: when they were this is the last question.

2701
01:56:24,320 --> 01:56:26,080
Speaker 4: I think there was one incident of somebody getting killed

2702
01:56:26,080 --> 01:56:30,240
Speaker 4: erect yes, you know, okay, don't want to.

2703
01:56:30,240 --> 01:56:32,879
Speaker 2: Shoot their own No, So it's interesting. So the ideas

2704
01:56:32,960 --> 01:56:34,840
Speaker 2: idea behind that was when they were engaged in this,

2705
01:56:35,320 --> 01:56:37,280
Speaker 2: when they were clearing out houses, the idea was is

2706
01:56:37,320 --> 01:56:39,360
Speaker 2: that if a bunch of ideas shoulder soldiers show up

2707
01:56:39,360 --> 01:56:40,920
Speaker 2: and start banging on your door, it's going to lead

2708
01:56:40,920 --> 01:56:42,360
Speaker 2: to some sort of armed conflicts. So what the idea

2709
01:56:42,400 --> 01:56:45,840
Speaker 2: started to do houses is no, what the idea started

2710
01:56:45,840 --> 01:56:47,040
Speaker 2: to do when they were proaching houses, if they were

2711
01:56:47,040 --> 01:56:48,960
Speaker 2: people in the neighborhood of people walking by, they were like, hey,

2712
01:56:49,040 --> 01:56:50,040
Speaker 2: do you want to walk up and do you want

2713
01:56:50,040 --> 01:56:51,360
Speaker 2: to knock on the door and talk to the sky

2714
01:56:51,440 --> 01:56:54,720
Speaker 2: because if you go in and you talk the gutes,

2715
01:56:55,240 --> 01:56:56,560
Speaker 2: do they want to hand me your wall? There's a

2716
01:56:56,600 --> 01:56:58,640
Speaker 2: reason why. Yeah, you can laugh. But the funny this

2717
01:56:58,760 --> 01:57:00,520
Speaker 2: is like this is the conflict as you leck. Now,

2718
01:57:00,600 --> 01:57:02,960
Speaker 2: more people probably die because that policy is gone because

2719
01:57:02,960 --> 01:57:04,240
Speaker 2: the way that you phrase it is, oh, they got

2720
01:57:04,280 --> 01:57:05,880
Speaker 2: to go to their head, specificly human shield, which I

2721
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:06,440
Speaker 2: think did happen.

2722
01:57:06,560 --> 01:57:06,640
Speaker 5: Right.

2723
01:57:07,000 --> 01:57:08,400
Speaker 2: There's a reason why when you talk about the policy,

2724
01:57:08,480 --> 01:57:10,600
Speaker 2: only one person ever died doing it. It's because it'scause

2725
01:57:10,600 --> 01:57:11,920
Speaker 2: it's a safer way to bring people out of the

2726
01:57:11,960 --> 01:57:13,840
Speaker 2: home in order to like you have an actual battle syndico,

2727
01:57:13,880 --> 01:57:16,640
Speaker 2: knock the doork rather than the idea is bank human shield.

2728
01:57:18,640 --> 01:57:20,320
Speaker 2: That's not a human shield. The human shield. When you

2729
01:57:20,360 --> 01:57:22,920
Speaker 2: say human on the shielding, the other people know it

2730
01:57:23,040 --> 01:57:25,840
Speaker 2: was to shield that the IDF doesn't need shields from

2731
01:57:25,840 --> 01:57:27,160
Speaker 2: the Palestines of the West Bank the.

2732
01:57:28,960 --> 01:57:29,920
Speaker 3: Human shields, but you don't.

2733
01:57:30,240 --> 01:57:32,640
Speaker 2: The Supreme Court ruled against it because they felt like

2734
01:57:32,720 --> 01:57:35,280
Speaker 2: the the ability for them to truly consent the Palestine

2735
01:57:35,360 --> 01:57:37,200
Speaker 2: is truly consent to knocking in a door was compromised.

2736
01:57:38,560 --> 01:57:44,000
Speaker 3: Eventually, Israel said, yes, okay, fine, I want to give

2737
01:57:44,040 --> 01:57:44,320
Speaker 3: me time.

2738
01:57:44,320 --> 01:57:46,200
Speaker 5: I want it because Ohmar got a good chunk of

2739
01:57:46,240 --> 01:57:47,720
Speaker 5: time to have final thoughts. So I want to make

2740
01:57:47,760 --> 01:57:48,280
Speaker 5: sure that you get this.

2741
01:57:48,440 --> 01:57:51,240
Speaker 2: I gotcha. Yeah. So there's just a refusal on one side, well,

2742
01:57:51,320 --> 01:57:53,280
Speaker 2: really on both sides. Woun't have a crazy ultra side

2743
01:57:53,280 --> 01:57:55,480
Speaker 2: is here except I guess maybe. But generally there's refusal

2744
01:57:55,520 --> 01:57:57,280
Speaker 2: on both sides to acknowledge the trewths of the other side,

2745
01:57:57,280 --> 01:57:59,600
Speaker 2: but the blockade. The reason why the blockade exists is

2746
01:57:59,640 --> 01:58:02,800
Speaker 2: because Israel is evil. Hamas doesn't actually do any things

2747
01:58:02,800 --> 01:58:06,320
Speaker 2: to induce civilians to be killed. Israeli people, Jewish people

2748
01:58:06,320 --> 01:58:08,360
Speaker 2: don't have any reasonable fears of Hamas. That's why earlier

2749
01:58:08,400 --> 01:58:10,200
Speaker 2: when I asked if Hamas was in charge of Israel

2750
01:58:10,600 --> 01:58:12,320
Speaker 2: and if the Jews lived in the Godza Strip, do

2751
01:58:12,360 --> 01:58:13,680
Speaker 2: we think the treat would be the same or worse

2752
01:58:13,760 --> 01:58:15,240
Speaker 2: or better? We couldn't even get an answer to that

2753
01:58:15,280 --> 01:58:18,000
Speaker 2: because the obvious answer is Hamas had probably engaged in

2754
01:58:18,080 --> 01:58:21,520
Speaker 2: a genocidal campaign to kill every actual genocidal campaign, not

2755
01:58:21,640 --> 01:58:23,360
Speaker 2: one where the people are on the verge of starvation

2756
01:58:23,480 --> 01:58:26,760
Speaker 2: for twenty five years while the population increases fivefold. Okay,

2757
01:58:26,880 --> 01:58:31,000
Speaker 2: So this refusal to acknowledge like basic facts of history

2758
01:58:31,080 --> 01:58:34,320
Speaker 2: or the fact that the complication is or the conflict

2759
01:58:34,320 --> 01:58:37,880
Speaker 2: itself is really complicated. This goes back decades in terms

2760
01:58:37,920 --> 01:58:40,000
Speaker 2: of how people are disagreeing over who owns what peace

2761
01:58:40,000 --> 01:58:42,080
Speaker 2: of land, or or who has a right to live

2762
01:58:42,120 --> 01:58:44,080
Speaker 2: in what place, or whether or not there living or apartheid,

2763
01:58:44,200 --> 01:58:46,280
Speaker 2: or what a final solution should look like. The fact

2764
01:58:46,280 --> 01:58:49,200
Speaker 2: that people are incapable of acknowledging both parts of the

2765
01:58:49,680 --> 01:58:51,440
Speaker 2: sides of this conflict, makes it so that when people

2766
01:58:51,480 --> 01:58:54,360
Speaker 2: are encouraging their particular side, there will never be a resolution.

2767
01:58:54,760 --> 01:58:57,160
Speaker 2: If you are a Palestinian and you believe that today

2768
01:58:57,200 --> 01:59:00,120
Speaker 2: you are being subjected to genocide and apartheid, why in

2769
01:59:00,200 --> 01:59:02,520
Speaker 2: the fuck would you ever negotiate with Israel for and

2770
01:59:02,760 --> 01:59:04,560
Speaker 2: and thing and and I think both of you said

2771
01:59:04,560 --> 01:59:06,800
Speaker 2: to yourselves, the international community needs to step in and

2772
01:59:06,840 --> 01:59:08,800
Speaker 2: solve this problem. And as long as Palestinians think that,

2773
01:59:08,880 --> 01:59:10,280
Speaker 2: there's never going to be a drive there to actually

2774
01:59:10,320 --> 01:59:12,480
Speaker 2: reach any lasting solution, because why would you If we're

2775
01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:14,640
Speaker 2: being genocided, we're being apartheided, we live in open air

2776
01:59:14,680 --> 01:59:16,640
Speaker 2: prisons and concentrations. We're not going to figure the problem out.

2777
01:59:16,640 --> 01:59:18,440
Speaker 2: Somebody's gonna come save us. And as long as that

2778
01:59:18,640 --> 01:59:21,120
Speaker 2: is the mentality that is given to the Palestinian people,

2779
01:59:21,240 --> 01:59:22,200
Speaker 2: they will continue.

2780
01:59:21,920 --> 01:59:24,880
Speaker 3: To fight negotiating with their oppressors or they could get.

2781
01:59:24,800 --> 01:59:26,560
Speaker 2: Where they could where all of the And this is

2782
01:59:26,600 --> 01:59:29,120
Speaker 2: funny too. You can see so many maps in a minute. Yeah,

2783
01:59:29,120 --> 01:59:30,800
Speaker 2: you can see so many maps that are published from

2784
01:59:30,840 --> 01:59:34,040
Speaker 2: negotiations between Palestinian negotiators and Israeli negotiators. All of them

2785
01:59:34,040 --> 01:59:36,400
Speaker 2: are from the Israeli side. There has never been a

2786
01:59:36,720 --> 01:59:39,200
Speaker 2: deal on the table where Palestinian said this is what

2787
01:59:39,280 --> 01:59:41,560
Speaker 2: we want and then Israel didn't accept. It's never been

2788
01:59:41,640 --> 01:59:43,960
Speaker 2: the case that that was it. Negotiations have been horrible.

2789
01:59:44,000 --> 01:59:44,880
Speaker 2: Cushioners talked about a.

2790
01:59:44,880 --> 01:59:46,120
Speaker 3: Bus, they recognize.

2791
01:59:47,280 --> 01:59:50,000
Speaker 2: Talking about error, fat about a boss. The negotiations just

2792
01:59:50,040 --> 01:59:51,840
Speaker 2: can never be made because there is no negotiating on

2793
01:59:51,880 --> 01:59:54,640
Speaker 2: the Palestinian side. And that's what we see today internationally,

2794
01:59:55,120 --> 01:59:56,560
Speaker 2: that it is encouragement to keep fighting and fighting and

2795
01:59:56,600 --> 01:59:58,680
Speaker 2: fighting until eventually your one state from river to cy.

2796
01:59:59,120 --> 02:00:00,880
Speaker 5: So we started this by saying we were not going

2797
02:00:00,920 --> 02:00:02,760
Speaker 5: to solve the problem, and I think that proved to

2798
02:00:02,880 --> 02:00:06,000
Speaker 5: be correct. We did not solve the problem, but what

2799
02:00:06,080 --> 02:00:07,800
Speaker 5: we did say we wanted to do was bring some

2800
02:00:07,920 --> 02:00:10,760
Speaker 5: more clarity about the contrast on both sides. And I

2801
02:00:10,840 --> 02:00:13,480
Speaker 5: do think Ryan, that we saw a lot of contrasts

2802
02:00:13,520 --> 02:00:15,400
Speaker 5: and a lot more clarity in the contrast just by

2803
02:00:15,440 --> 02:00:19,480
Speaker 5: flushing some of this out. So sincerely, yeah, sincerely want

2804
02:00:19,480 --> 02:00:22,320
Speaker 5: to think both of you because this is not always

2805
02:00:22,400 --> 02:00:24,840
Speaker 5: an easy thing to do, and we all are still here.

2806
02:00:25,240 --> 02:00:29,760
Speaker 2: So that note, Ryan, any final thoughts, no, no final thoughts.

2807
02:00:29,800 --> 02:00:31,400
Speaker 1: I'll just leave it at that because if I say anything,

2808
02:00:31,400 --> 02:00:34,760
Speaker 1: it's just going to and that's right back up, and

2809
02:00:34,840 --> 02:00:35,720
Speaker 1: we've all got things we.

2810
02:00:35,760 --> 02:00:37,120
Speaker 2: Got to do, right, that's right.

2811
02:00:37,640 --> 02:00:41,120
Speaker 5: So Breakingpoints dot Com subscribe. We will be here, remember

2812
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:44,280
Speaker 5: now on Fridays, in addition to Wednesdays. Thank you, Stephen,

2813
02:00:44,440 --> 02:00:46,640
Speaker 5: thank you, Omar, thank you, thank you guys.

2814
02:00:46,680 --> 02:00:46,840
Speaker 3: Soon