WEBVTT - An All-American Tragedy 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:05.200 La Latino USA listener, it's me Maria no Hosa. So 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.360 you probably know I host another award winning program. It's 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:11.840 called In the Fic. It's our politics podcast from Futuro 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.760 Media where I, along with several guest hosts who are fabulous, 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:19.800 we talk about politics unfiltered, from race to culture to immigration. 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.320 We cover it all and we drop some singers, if 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.560 you know what I mean. So today on Latino USA, 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:30.320 we are going to share one of our latest ITT episodes. 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.680 It's about immigration and what we can expect from Donald 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:38.240 Trump's second presidential term. On this episode, my ITT co 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:41.960 host Baula Ramos joins me. She's a journalist and writer, 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:46.879 and we're also joined by Jacob Soberoff, NBC News National correspondent. 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.680 We're going to talk about his new documentary film Separated, 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:55.360 which dives into the impact of Trump's family separation policy. So, 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:59.600 without further ado, dear listener, here's our conversation, and don't 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:04.000 forget to subscribe and like in the Thick wherever you 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:12.480 get your podcasts, Enjoy the show. Yo, what a ITT listener. 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.080 Welcome back to In the Thick. I'm Maria ango Hosa 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:18.320 this week, joined by my co host journalist and author 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:22.919 Baola Ramos today, who is in the liberated territory of Brooklyn, 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:23.480 what's up? 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:23.800 What's up? 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:29.120 Oh yea May? And joining us from Manhattan. Yes, thirty 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:33.080 Rock itself is NBC National correspondent Jacob sober Off. He 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.280 has a big week ahead of him because on December seventh, 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:38.840 you're going to be able to catch the film Separated 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.000 on MSNBC on prime time. The film is based on 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:45.800 his reporting about Trump's family separation policy. So Jacob, welcome 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:47.680 back to it T. It's good to see you, and. 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:49.040 It is so good to see you guys. Thank you 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:49.920 so much for having me. 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:59.640 This is politics unfiltered. Let's get into it. So Jacob, 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.840 here at it T. We acknowledge the fact that we 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.680 as journalists are full human beings. We like to ask you, 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.600 like what's your emotional temperature? Check like how are you doing? 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:10.560 Anxious? 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:14.080 But that's today and always, Maria, I'm a man with 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:15.120 many therapists. 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:16.200 We love that. 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:18.720 It's true. Look, I feel grateful. 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.160 I feel grateful to be here in this moment, to 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.760 have this job and career and to get to work 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:25.560 with people like the two of you. But I know 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:27.120 that this is a really tough time for a lot 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.560 of people, and just remain very aware of that. And 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.560 there's a lot of uncertainty, and speaking of what I 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:36.320 talk about in therapy, uncertainty is a hard thing, and 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:38.519 I think we all have some level of that now 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.000 in our personal lives and our professional lives, watching what's 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.480 happening in the world, and so you know, no bullshit, 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:44.680 it's nice to be here with the two of you, 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:46.880 to have a sort of a regular conversation at a 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:48.200 time when I think we all need it. 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:53.680 I need it, Paula, your temperature check, Komotuta boys Adain. 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:57.560 I had the privilege of escaping to Miami this last week, 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:00.240 and I think Miami is an interesting place right now, 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:05.640 the newly flipped Trump Miami Land. But somehow, though it 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.240 may be the sun or the beach, like, there's this 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:12.000 ability to completely detach yourself from politics and the news, 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.560 and I literally spent the last four days doing that. 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:17.840 This morning, I felt great, and now that I'm back 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:20.200 in New York City talking to both of you from Brooklyn, 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:24.040 that anxiety and uncertainty definitely starts to creep in. And 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:26.120 one thing that I did notice though in Miami that 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:31.240 was hilarious. There are people that are actively preparing welcome 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.119 parties for the January six ers that they believe will 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.640 be soon pardoned, and so that was that definitely made 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:40.080 me anxious again. Other than that, I'm. 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:41.480 Going to say, you look very relaxed, But now that 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.200 I heard that, I stress is building. 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.840 Yeah, it's definitely starting to feel like a different reality there. 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:47.160 How are you doing, Madia? 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:48.400 Yeah, what's going on? Riyah? 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:52.960 So I also disconnected, but I was far from Miami. 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.640 I was in our little teeny tiny cottage with all 0:03:56.680 --> 0:04:00.120 six of us. I made a great turkey, fabulous But 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:02.040 I'm also really happy to be here and happy to 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:04.800 be with both you, Jacob and Bauda. It's great. So 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:08.080 we're approaching this second Trump presidency and we're going to 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:11.480 spend today's show looking at Trump's immigration policy, what it 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:13.720 has meant for the lives of millions of American families 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.600 in the past, what the future could hold, and what 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:18.880 communities are doing to prepare, and how we're all kind 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:23.479 of sitting or standing with this new reality. So, as 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.039 we mentioned, Jacob, back in twenty twenty, you released a 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:30.839 book titled Separated Inside an American tragedy. It detailed the 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:34.680 Trump administration's immigration to terns policy, which led to the 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:38.560 separation of four thousand, two hundred and twenty seven children, 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:42.840 probably more from their parents, and it has been denounced 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:46.720 worldwide as a violation of basic human rights. Right this week, 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:50.040 a documentary based on that reporting by acclaimed filmmaker Errol 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.520 Morris is going to premiere on MSNBC. 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:57.359 We were very concerned that some children's separations would be 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:02.080 permanent because the parents would be removed from the United 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:06.320 States through deportation. So the families had made the journey together, 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:08.760 but now the children would remain in the United States. 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:21.080 These are state created portions. These are families separated by 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:26.839 action of the federal government as a tool of immigration policy. 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:30.080 So when you wrap the documentary, you put up a 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:35.040 shocking number right on thy fifty two children still separated 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:37.440 from their parents as a result of Trump's policy. I 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:41.279 believe you have a new number. But Jacob, can you 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.320 just take us to the origins of this policy to 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.320 the present moment, What the effects have been on the 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:50.039 lives of these separated families, on the lives of the 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:54.599 children who are still separated, and what a new version 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.800 of this policy could look like under an incoming Trump administration. 0:05:58.120 --> 0:05:59.720 So you mentioned that number of one thousand and fifty 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:01.320 two the shows up at the end of the movie Maria, 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:03.680 And what's crazy is that numbers even higher than it 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.080 was when we locked picture on the film. 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:07.279 I figure today the. 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:10.919 Number of children without confirmed reunifications for the Trump family 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.520 separation policy is at three hundred and sixty kids without 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:18.400 confirmed reunifications. And you know, it was warned at the 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:21.560 time of the policy that they could be permanent orphans. 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:24.960 And to just sort of rewind here, there were operators, 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.680 many of whom were coming back to government now back 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.880 in the Obama administration, people like Tom Homan who wanted 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.440 to implement a family separation policy, and it was proposed 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:36.440 and it was rejected by the Homeland Security officials at 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:38.960 the time, namely Jay Johnson, who was the Secretary of 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:41.480 Homeland Security and one of his deputies, all one Hundre Maiorchis, 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.520 who today is the Secretary of Homeland Security. But you know, 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.560 as early as Valentine's Day twenty seventeen, and you'll see 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:49.320 it in this film, a bunch of these folks got 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:51.480 in a room at the Ronald Reagan Building in Washington. 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:51.400 D C. 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:55.680 And they almost in a gleeful way, proposed again bringing 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:58.520 back this idea of a family separation policy. And almost immediately, 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.320 do you guys know this, down in the Elpaso sector 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:03.800 of the border patrol, early on in twenty seventeen, they 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.400 started separating kids even before this was an official policy. 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.840 And it wasn't until the spring of twenty eighteen when 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.520 the policy sort of burst out into public consciousness, and 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.560 ultimately the ACLU says, fifty five hundred children were taken 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.920 away from their parents deliberately for no other reason than 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.760 to hurt them, to scare other people from coming to 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.160 this country. And obviously, you know, we all know that 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.560 policy failed spectacularly, and I should say it wasn't a 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:29.400 failure for the fifty five hundred kids who went through this. 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.160 They are going to have a lifetime of trauma. They 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.280 were subjected to government sanctioned child abuse, in the words 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.160 of the American Academy of Pediatrics. But it failed because 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:39.920 punishment has never stopped people from coming to the United 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.400 States of America in search of a better life for safety, 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:46.200 and that goes for Democratic and Republican presidents. We can 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:48.040 go through all of this. But you know as well 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:50.840 as I do, better than I do that. You know, 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.640 Bill Clinton created this prevention through de terrence model. 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.280 Our administration that's moved aggressively to secure our borders more 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:00.400 by hiring a record number of new border guards, by 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.800 deporting twice as many criminal aliens as ever before, by 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:05.480 cracking down on illegal hiring. 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:06.320 George W. 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:09.480 Bush supersized the border patrol when he created DHS. 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.480 Dozens of agencies charged with homeland security will now be 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:18.560 located within one cabinet department with the mandate and legal 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:21.240 authority to protect our people. 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:24.560 Barack Obama deported more people than any president in history, and. 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:28.440 No matter how decent they are, no matter there are reasons, 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:33.360 the eleven million who broke these laws should be held accountable, which. 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.760 Is why, like that Donald Trump was able to separate 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:37.480 all those thousands of children from their parents. 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:38.920 The system was set up that way. 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:39.240 Yep. 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.840 And here we are today again with the specter of 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.640 mass deportations looming. I reported from the floor of the Conventions. 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:46.760 I saw those signs up close, right in front of 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:50.360 my face. And mass deportation is family separation by another name. 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:52.640 It's not ripping kids away from their parents at the border, 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:56.120 but it is ripping parents away from kids in the interior. 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.280 What we're about to see has actually already played at 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.760 happened before fan separation, and it's about to happen again. 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.640 You know, Paola, when this was happening, I remember saying 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.920 family separation is actually part of American history. 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:08.160 Right. 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:12.439 Let's be clear. They took Indigenous children away from their parents, 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:17.000 they took enslaved black children away from their parents, yes, 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:22.880 they took Japanese American children, yes, and separated. So it's 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.480 been a historic thing. Bo, It's not new, definitely. 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.120 And I think that's why this film is so important 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.679 now because I think you are reminding people of that 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:37.920 moral outrage that people felt in twenty seventeen and twenty 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.560 eighteen and right before the twenty twenty election, right, And 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.160 in a way, this film I wish it would have 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.680 been sort of released before. But I think that's why 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.559 this is important to have this conversation now, to go 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:50.520 back to what you saw back then, so that people 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:52.000 remember what's about to happen. 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:52.400 Right. 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.040 And so I'm thinking, Jacob, of that clip that we 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:58.319 see in the film of you walking through that detention 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:03.160 center in McAllen. Obviously it was facilitated through Katie Miller, 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:04.480 right who that was. 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:07.720 Invited by Steven Miller's wife. It's like unbelieve they fell 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.320 in love over the family separation policy, got married after it. 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:11.480 Incredible love story. 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:15.080 So take us back inside that detention center, like, tell 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.080 us once again what you saw back then. 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:19.040 It was two days, Paula. 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:22.520 It was June thirteenth, twenty eighteen, and I was in 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.320 Los Angeles and Katie Waldman then Katie Waldman, who became 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:27.800 Katie Miller, Stephen Miller's now wife, said you got to 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.400 get down and see family separations, you know, for yourself. 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:32.640 And I went inside the former Walmart it was called 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:36.000 Casa Padre in Brownsville, two hundred and fifty thousand square 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.960 feet and there was one thousand boys inside, ten to 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.880 seventeen years old, maybe more than a thousand. Actually most 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.520 of them were there only because they had been separated 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.200 from their parents. It was over capacity, you know. All 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:49.280 I could think about was this place is called the shelter, 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:51.400 but I'm looking at these kids and they're incarcerated here. 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.240 And then a couple days later she invited me back 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.520 again to go in the epicenter of separations on Father's 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.520 Day to Ursula, the Central Processing Center in McCallan, Texas. 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:01.600 And that is where I saw what we all know now, 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:05.800 kids locked up in cages on the concrete floors, supervised 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:10.360 by security contractors, literally in a watchtower, under those milar blankets, 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:11.959 and I'll never forget it. 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:16.720 Let's go live now to MSNBC's Jacob Soberoff and McCallen, Texas. Jacob, 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:18.840 you have been one of the very few journalists allowed 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:22.040 to see one of the facilities where these migrant children 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:23.440 are being held. 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:26.120 Tell us what. 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:27.200 It is that we can't see. 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:30.120 This is the first time ever that children have been 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:32.400 separated on a systematic basis. Look at those photos right 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.320 there from their parents, and that is because of the 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.920 Trump administration. People in here are locked up in cages 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.560 essentially what looked like animal kennels. 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.400 I don't know any other way to describe it. That's 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:46.560 what they wanted us to see. It was no cameras, 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.720 it was pad and paper only, and they wanted us 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.760 to come outside and say what we had seen to 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.600 scare people from coming and also scare Congress into an 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:58.760 acting stricter immigration laws, and I look back now and 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.480 Erin Morris asked me, film, so you're a tool. Basically 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:04.280 you went in there and did their bidding. And what 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.720 I said to him was Bigley, It's true, as Donald 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.160 Trump might say. But what happened after that is I 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.080 think what inspires me actually about that moment in time, 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:15.040 but also about this film and about where we're headed. 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.320 People stood up all around the world in reaction to 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.600 what they saw, and it wasn't a bipartisan outrage. 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:23.800 It was a universal outrage. The Pope spoke out. 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.040 If you remember, hundreds of thousands of people were in 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.959 the street after we came out of those facilities, and importantly, 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.319 I didn't mention. Ginger Thompson published that audio with Pro Publica, 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:34.040 and everybody heard the cries of the children in the 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.920 border patrol, mocking them inside those border patrol stations, and 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.959 the world stood up and forced Donald Trump on June twentieth, 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.560 twenty eighteen into basically it is most significant, if not 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:46.960 the only major policy reversal of his first term, which 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.640 was he stood down on family separation, and he didn't 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:54.120 say I was morally appalled by what happened. He said, 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:55.880 I didn't like the site and the feeling of the 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.840 families being separated. He didn't like what was going down 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.439 on television or the audio that he was hearing coming through. 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:03.280 And I think it's a lesson. 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.840 It's a lesson looking backwards, and it's a lesson thinking 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:08.400 about this time period we're about to go through right now. 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:11.760 Jacob. I believe the term that I use when we 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:14.800 see the children who have now been released right and 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.480 are being taken from one place to another, I believe 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.000 that's government trafficking of children. And I just want to 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:22.200 wonder if we're on the same page if you call 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:22.720 it that too. 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:25.960 Look, I go by what the experts have said, and 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.320 what the experts have said is not only as I mentioned, 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.360 the Republican appointed judge called it one of the most 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:33.840 shameful chapters in the history of the country, but the 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.199 American Academy of Pediatrics at the time said it was 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:40.400 government sanctioned child abuse. Physicians for human rights, Nobel Peace 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:43.560 Prize winning organizations said what the Trump administration did to 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:47.840 those children met the United Nations definition of torture. You know, 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:51.000 we've all talked to children who have gone through this policy. 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.280 They will live with a lifetime of trauma that can 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.080 never be undone, no matter how much financial restitution. By 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:58.800 the way, most of them aren't getting any because the 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:03.360 Biden administration's fighting them court nor psychological treatment that they 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:05.640 will get. You hear in the film Jonathan White and 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.760 Jalen Sulog, two career civil servants who did everything they 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.880 could to help stop this policy, say this is what 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.360 they warned their superiors was going to happen, that they 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:18.680 were going to damage these children irreparably, and they went 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.200 forward with it anyway. And that's sort of the level 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:24.520 of I think, you know, intentionality. People will sometimes say, well, 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.680 how do you, as a journalist use the word cruel. 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:28.680 Go look at the documents, You see the emails on 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:30.760 the screen in the film. This is what they were 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:33.080 intending to do. They didn't want to reunite children when 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:34.800 they were starting to be reunited with their parents. One 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:36.880 official called it a fiasco. The other one said, this 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:40.320 undermines the entire effort when the families were being put 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.160 back together after separation, instead of deporting the parents without 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.840 the children. It was the point, and it's non opinion. 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:48.960 It's just an objective fact. When you look at the emails, 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:50.720 You hear what they said, you listen to the officials 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:52.520 who warned about the policy. 0:14:53.280 --> 0:15:08.880 This was the point. 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.240 I can't help but think about this idea that since 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.400 you were reporting in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, how much 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.760 have we changed as a country? Like have we become 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.520 numb now? When we're talking about this? And I guess 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.280 my question to both of you, Maria as well, is 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:37.280 do you believe or do you expect that when Holman 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.640 walks in, and when Steven Miller walks in, and when 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.320 we see a more aggressive iteration of what has already 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.600 been documented, do we expect this country to still have 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.520 the same collective moral outrage as the one that we 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:49.360 saw years ago. 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:53.120 I wish I could say absolutely. In fact, I'm just 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:54.880 going to be straight up honest, because I am right. 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.000 We're a journalists. So I went to get a manicure today. 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:58.920 By the way, I love a good many Petty. I'm 0:15:58.920 --> 0:15:59.480 just gonna admit it. 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.400 Also, So while I'm at the MANI petty this morning 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:04.880 here in Harlem, and I'm looking around and these are 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.240 women who I know. They're all immigrants. Of course I 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:09.840 don't know their status because no one knows anybody's status. 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.160 And I just put out, I did a little social 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.680 media thing. I was like, Aha, all the lovely ladies 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:17.720 who went to vote for Donald Trump and who love 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.160 to go get their mani petties from all the immigrant women. 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.920 Will they even notice if they're gone? Do they even care? 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:25.520 Because of course you cannot tell our status by looking 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.760 at us, and so it's like, will they go out 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:33.720 and use their bodies? As Dolores Werta says, it's all 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.040 about people power, right, you have to put your body 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:40.200 where your politics are. I don't know, and I hate 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.040 to say that. I wish I could say yes. I 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.360 know that in some immigrant communities, people are getting prepared. 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.360 There's trainings about what to do when ice appears. They 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.080 are getting ready. They know your rights training skin, they 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.840 know your rights trainings. So it's getting very ugly. But 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:57.360 the answer to the question is will there be an outpouring? 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:00.720 I don't know. But then again, our country is very unpredictable, 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:05.159 right There has been massive demonstrations across our country too, 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:14.000 so you know, anything could happen in some ways. Wait 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.760 a minute about let me ask you about your reporting, 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.679 because you spent election night with mixed status families in 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.639 Arizona when you were reporting for Telemundo and MSNBC. So 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:26.720 right now, according to ford US, there are about twenty 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.320 two million people living in the United States in mixed 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:31.720 status families. Right, We're going to go to a clip 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:34.440 from your visit to the home of the ed nandis family. 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:41.000 There sign Donald Trump nass Me and. 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:44.119 My husband we have talked about maybe just moving to 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:45.040 a different country. 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.399 You would literally well someone would say, is self deport 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:49.240 You've been thinking. 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.520 Right, I feel like my parents and our whole family 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:56.240 has contributed so much, you know, to this country. You know, 0:17:56.320 --> 0:18:00.439 having a business, having businesses here, paying tax is like 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:04.280 giving so much and still dealing with so much racism 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:07.080 and so much hate towards our community. 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:09.960 So a BAOUTA what have you heard from undocumented people 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:15.800 and activists since you're reporting? Then, what's the sense of Okay, 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.119 this man is now in power and now this stuff 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.240 is really going to happen. What are you hearing? 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.320 I feel like I'm hearing two sides of the same story. Right. 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.200 There's the one side, which is the story of resilience. Right, 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:30.320 and in a place like Maricopa County in Arizona. I think, 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.120 and we've talked about this before, I think the grassroots 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:37.400 movement feels confident enough that they have the infrastructure that's 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:38.920 necessary to protect their people. 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:40.200 Now, this isn't you for them. 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.000 They've obviously lived through the air of Juripio, and so 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:45.720 when they say like we are home, they mean it. 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:48.560 But then on the other side, I think the fear 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:51.160 is inevitable. A lot of the families that I talked 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:55.000 to are actively considering things like self deportation, which is 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:59.159 precisely sort of the heart of the Republican's strategy. It's 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.080 still so much and still so much uncertainty, and this 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.840 idea of chaos that in and of itself will will 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:07.479 drive people away. I mean, as we know, during our 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:09.760 Pio and sp ten seventy there was a mass exodus, 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:12.840 so many folks went to New Mexico and other states. 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:15.760 But now the question that people have is where do 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:18.520 you go, right if in fact they do implement these 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.000 mass importations. And so I think it's a combination of 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:23.879 those two things. I know, I keep obsessing around this 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:26.760 idea of like how will people react? But this is 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.720 when Jacob I think of the difference of like ourselves 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.840 as journalists and in the mediums that we typically use. 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:37.360 And then suddenly, what is the difference of now exposing 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.560 this story through this medium, you know, through this type 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.800 of like narrative see in this this word in English. 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:47.040 I can't say vignetes, vignette vignettes exactly. 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:48.680 You just said it exactly. 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:50.680 Oh, give it, let me say it again. 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:51.520 We're not perfect. 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:54.639 No, But my question is as a journalist, now that 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.919 you've been able to work with this incredible Hollywood filmmaker, 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:01.720 what have you learned about the power storytelling? No, when 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.439 thinking about these families that Mariias asking me about and 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.960 how we can get other folks to sort of understand 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:11.679 what's at stake, what have you learned around like filmmaking and. 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.640 Sort of the power that Hollywood has that we don't have. 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.800