1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: La Latino USA listener, it's me Maria no Hosa. So 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: you probably know I host another award winning program. It's 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: called In the Fic. It's our politics podcast from Futuro 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: Media where I, along with several guest hosts who are fabulous, 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: we talk about politics unfiltered, from race to culture to immigration. 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: We cover it all and we drop some singers, if 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So today on Latino USA, 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: we are going to share one of our latest ITT episodes. 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: It's about immigration and what we can expect from Donald 10 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: Trump's second presidential term. On this episode, my ITT co 11 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: host Baula Ramos joins me. She's a journalist and writer, 12 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: and we're also joined by Jacob Soberoff, NBC News National correspondent. 13 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about his new documentary film Separated, 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: which dives into the impact of Trump's family separation policy. So, 15 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: without further ado, dear listener, here's our conversation, and don't 16 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: forget to subscribe and like in the Thick wherever you 17 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: get your podcasts, Enjoy the show. Yo, what a ITT listener. 18 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: Welcome back to In the Thick. I'm Maria ango Hosa 19 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: this week, joined by my co host journalist and author 20 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,919 Speaker 1: Baola Ramos today, who is in the liberated territory of Brooklyn, 21 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: what's up? 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: What's up? 23 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: Oh yea May? And joining us from Manhattan. Yes, thirty 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: Rock itself is NBC National correspondent Jacob sober Off. He 25 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: has a big week ahead of him because on December seventh, 26 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: you're going to be able to catch the film Separated 27 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: on MSNBC on prime time. The film is based on 28 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: his reporting about Trump's family separation policy. So Jacob, welcome 29 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: back to it T. It's good to see you, and. 30 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 3: It is so good to see you guys. Thank you 31 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 3: so much for having me. 32 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: This is politics unfiltered. Let's get into it. So Jacob, 33 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: here at it T. We acknowledge the fact that we 34 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: as journalists are full human beings. We like to ask you, 35 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: like what's your emotional temperature? Check like how are you doing? 36 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 3: Anxious? 37 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 4: But that's today and always, Maria, I'm a man with 38 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 4: many therapists. 39 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: We love that. 40 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 3: It's true. Look, I feel grateful. 41 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 4: I feel grateful to be here in this moment, to 42 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 4: have this job and career and to get to work 43 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 4: with people like the two of you. But I know 44 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 4: that this is a really tough time for a lot 45 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 4: of people, and just remain very aware of that. And 46 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 4: there's a lot of uncertainty, and speaking of what I 47 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 4: talk about in therapy, uncertainty is a hard thing, and 48 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 4: I think we all have some level of that now 49 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 4: in our personal lives and our professional lives, watching what's 50 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 4: happening in the world, and so you know, no bullshit, 51 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 4: it's nice to be here with the two of you, 52 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 4: to have a sort of a regular conversation at a 53 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 4: time when I think we all need it. 54 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: I need it, Paula, your temperature check, Komotuta boys Adain. 55 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 5: I had the privilege of escaping to Miami this last week, 56 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 5: and I think Miami is an interesting place right now, 57 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 5: the newly flipped Trump Miami Land. But somehow, though it 58 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 5: may be the sun or the beach, like, there's this 59 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 5: ability to completely detach yourself from politics and the news, 60 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 5: and I literally spent the last four days doing that. 61 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 5: This morning, I felt great, and now that I'm back 62 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 5: in New York City talking to both of you from Brooklyn, 63 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 5: that anxiety and uncertainty definitely starts to creep in. And 64 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 5: one thing that I did notice though in Miami that 65 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 5: was hilarious. There are people that are actively preparing welcome 66 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,119 Speaker 5: parties for the January six ers that they believe will 67 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 5: be soon pardoned, and so that was that definitely made 68 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 5: me anxious again. Other than that, I'm. 69 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 4: Going to say, you look very relaxed, But now that 70 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 4: I heard that, I stress is building. 71 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's definitely starting to feel like a different reality there. 72 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 6: How are you doing, Madia? 73 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, what's going on? Riyah? 74 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: So I also disconnected, but I was far from Miami. 75 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: I was in our little teeny tiny cottage with all 76 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: six of us. I made a great turkey, fabulous But 77 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: I'm also really happy to be here and happy to 78 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: be with both you, Jacob and Bauda. It's great. So 79 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: we're approaching this second Trump presidency and we're going to 80 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: spend today's show looking at Trump's immigration policy, what it 81 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: has meant for the lives of millions of American families 82 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: in the past, what the future could hold, and what 83 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: communities are doing to prepare, and how we're all kind 84 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: of sitting or standing with this new reality. So, as 85 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: we mentioned, Jacob, back in twenty twenty, you released a 86 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: book titled Separated Inside an American tragedy. It detailed the 87 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: Trump administration's immigration to terns policy, which led to the 88 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: separation of four thousand, two hundred and twenty seven children, 89 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: probably more from their parents, and it has been denounced 90 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: worldwide as a violation of basic human rights. Right this week, 91 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: a documentary based on that reporting by acclaimed filmmaker Errol 92 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: Morris is going to premiere on MSNBC. 93 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 7: We were very concerned that some children's separations would be 94 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 7: permanent because the parents would be removed from the United 95 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 7: States through deportation. So the families had made the journey together, 96 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 7: but now the children would remain in the United States. 97 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 7: These are state created portions. These are families separated by 98 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 7: action of the federal government as a tool of immigration policy. 99 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: So when you wrap the documentary, you put up a 100 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: shocking number right on thy fifty two children still separated 101 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: from their parents as a result of Trump's policy. I 102 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: believe you have a new number. But Jacob, can you 103 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: just take us to the origins of this policy to 104 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: the present moment, What the effects have been on the 105 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: lives of these separated families, on the lives of the 106 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: children who are still separated, and what a new version 107 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: of this policy could look like under an incoming Trump administration. 108 00:05:58,120 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 4: So you mentioned that number of one thousand and fifty 109 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 4: two the shows up at the end of the movie Maria, 110 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 4: And what's crazy is that numbers even higher than it 111 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 4: was when we locked picture on the film. 112 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 3: I figure today the. 113 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 4: Number of children without confirmed reunifications for the Trump family 114 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 4: separation policy is at three hundred and sixty kids without 115 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 4: confirmed reunifications. And you know, it was warned at the 116 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 4: time of the policy that they could be permanent orphans. 117 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 4: And to just sort of rewind here, there were operators, 118 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 4: many of whom were coming back to government now back 119 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 4: in the Obama administration, people like Tom Homan who wanted 120 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 4: to implement a family separation policy, and it was proposed 121 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 4: and it was rejected by the Homeland Security officials at 122 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 4: the time, namely Jay Johnson, who was the Secretary of 123 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 4: Homeland Security and one of his deputies, all one Hundre Maiorchis, 124 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 4: who today is the Secretary of Homeland Security. But you know, 125 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 4: as early as Valentine's Day twenty seventeen, and you'll see 126 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 4: it in this film, a bunch of these folks got 127 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 4: in a room at the Ronald Reagan Building in Washington. 128 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 3: D C. 129 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 4: And they almost in a gleeful way, proposed again bringing 130 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 4: back this idea of a family separation policy. And almost immediately, 131 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 4: do you guys know this, down in the Elpaso sector 132 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 4: of the border patrol, early on in twenty seventeen, they 133 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 4: started separating kids even before this was an official policy. 134 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 4: And it wasn't until the spring of twenty eighteen when 135 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 4: the policy sort of burst out into public consciousness, and 136 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 4: ultimately the ACLU says, fifty five hundred children were taken 137 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 4: away from their parents deliberately for no other reason than 138 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 4: to hurt them, to scare other people from coming to 139 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 4: this country. And obviously, you know, we all know that 140 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 4: policy failed spectacularly, and I should say it wasn't a 141 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 4: failure for the fifty five hundred kids who went through this. 142 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 4: They are going to have a lifetime of trauma. They 143 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 4: were subjected to government sanctioned child abuse, in the words 144 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 4: of the American Academy of Pediatrics. But it failed because 145 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 4: punishment has never stopped people from coming to the United 146 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 4: States of America in search of a better life for safety, 147 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 4: and that goes for Democratic and Republican presidents. We can 148 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 4: go through all of this. But you know as well 149 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 4: as I do, better than I do that. You know, 150 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 4: Bill Clinton created this prevention through de terrence model. 151 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 8: Our administration that's moved aggressively to secure our borders more 152 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 8: by hiring a record number of new border guards, by 153 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 8: deporting twice as many criminal aliens as ever before, by 154 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 8: cracking down on illegal hiring. 155 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 3: George W. 156 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 4: Bush supersized the border patrol when he created DHS. 157 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 9: Dozens of agencies charged with homeland security will now be 158 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 9: located within one cabinet department with the mandate and legal 159 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 9: authority to protect our people. 160 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 4: Barack Obama deported more people than any president in history, and. 161 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 10: No matter how decent they are, no matter there are reasons, 162 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 10: the eleven million who broke these laws should be held accountable, which. 163 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 4: Is why, like that Donald Trump was able to separate 164 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 4: all those thousands of children from their parents. 165 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 3: The system was set up that way. 166 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: Yep. 167 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 4: And here we are today again with the specter of 168 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 4: mass deportations looming. I reported from the floor of the Conventions. 169 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 4: I saw those signs up close, right in front of 170 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 4: my face. And mass deportation is family separation by another name. 171 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 4: It's not ripping kids away from their parents at the border, 172 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 4: but it is ripping parents away from kids in the interior. 173 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 4: What we're about to see has actually already played at 174 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 4: happened before fan separation, and it's about to happen again. 175 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: You know, Paola, when this was happening, I remember saying 176 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: family separation is actually part of American history. 177 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: Right. 178 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 1: Let's be clear. They took Indigenous children away from their parents, 179 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: they took enslaved black children away from their parents, yes, 180 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: they took Japanese American children, yes, and separated. So it's 181 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: been a historic thing. Bo, It's not new, definitely. 182 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 5: And I think that's why this film is so important 183 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 5: now because I think you are reminding people of that 184 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 5: moral outrage that people felt in twenty seventeen and twenty 185 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 5: eighteen and right before the twenty twenty election, right, And 186 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 5: in a way, this film I wish it would have 187 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 5: been sort of released before. But I think that's why 188 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 5: this is important to have this conversation now, to go 189 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 5: back to what you saw back then, so that people 190 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 5: remember what's about to happen. 191 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 4: Right. 192 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 5: And so I'm thinking, Jacob, of that clip that we 193 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 5: see in the film of you walking through that detention 194 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 5: center in McAllen. Obviously it was facilitated through Katie Miller, 195 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 5: right who that was. 196 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 4: Invited by Steven Miller's wife. It's like unbelieve they fell 197 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 4: in love over the family separation policy, got married after it. 198 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 6: Incredible love story. 199 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 5: So take us back inside that detention center, like, tell 200 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 5: us once again what you saw back then. 201 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 3: It was two days, Paula. 202 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 4: It was June thirteenth, twenty eighteen, and I was in 203 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 4: Los Angeles and Katie Waldman then Katie Waldman, who became 204 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 4: Katie Miller, Stephen Miller's now wife, said you got to 205 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 4: get down and see family separations, you know, for yourself. 206 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 4: And I went inside the former Walmart it was called 207 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 4: Casa Padre in Brownsville, two hundred and fifty thousand square 208 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 4: feet and there was one thousand boys inside, ten to 209 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 4: seventeen years old, maybe more than a thousand. Actually most 210 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 4: of them were there only because they had been separated 211 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 4: from their parents. It was over capacity, you know. All 212 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 4: I could think about was this place is called the shelter, 213 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 4: but I'm looking at these kids and they're incarcerated here. 214 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 4: And then a couple days later she invited me back 215 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 4: again to go in the epicenter of separations on Father's 216 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 4: Day to Ursula, the Central Processing Center in McCallan, Texas. 217 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 4: And that is where I saw what we all know now, 218 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 4: kids locked up in cages on the concrete floors, supervised 219 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 4: by security contractors, literally in a watchtower, under those milar blankets, 220 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 4: and I'll never forget it. 221 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 10: Let's go live now to MSNBC's Jacob Soberoff and McCallen, Texas. Jacob, 222 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 10: you have been one of the very few journalists allowed 223 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 10: to see one of the facilities where these migrant children 224 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 10: are being held. 225 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 6: Tell us what. 226 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 10: It is that we can't see. 227 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 11: This is the first time ever that children have been 228 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 11: separated on a systematic basis. Look at those photos right 229 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 11: there from their parents, and that is because of the 230 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 11: Trump administration. People in here are locked up in cages 231 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 11: essentially what looked like animal kennels. 232 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 4: I don't know any other way to describe it. That's 233 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 4: what they wanted us to see. It was no cameras, 234 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 4: it was pad and paper only, and they wanted us 235 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 4: to come outside and say what we had seen to 236 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 4: scare people from coming and also scare Congress into an 237 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 4: acting stricter immigration laws, and I look back now and 238 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 4: Erin Morris asked me, film, so you're a tool. Basically 239 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 4: you went in there and did their bidding. And what 240 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 4: I said to him was Bigley, It's true, as Donald 241 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 4: Trump might say. But what happened after that is I 242 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 4: think what inspires me actually about that moment in time, 243 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 4: but also about this film and about where we're headed. 244 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 4: People stood up all around the world in reaction to 245 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 4: what they saw, and it wasn't a bipartisan outrage. 246 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 3: It was a universal outrage. The Pope spoke out. 247 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 4: If you remember, hundreds of thousands of people were in 248 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 4: the street after we came out of those facilities, and importantly, 249 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 4: I didn't mention. Ginger Thompson published that audio with Pro Publica, 250 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 4: and everybody heard the cries of the children in the 251 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 4: border patrol, mocking them inside those border patrol stations, and 252 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 4: the world stood up and forced Donald Trump on June twentieth, 253 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 4: twenty eighteen into basically it is most significant, if not 254 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 4: the only major policy reversal of his first term, which 255 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 4: was he stood down on family separation, and he didn't 256 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 4: say I was morally appalled by what happened. He said, 257 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 4: I didn't like the site and the feeling of the 258 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 4: families being separated. He didn't like what was going down 259 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 4: on television or the audio that he was hearing coming through. 260 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 3: And I think it's a lesson. 261 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 4: It's a lesson looking backwards, and it's a lesson thinking 262 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 4: about this time period we're about to go through right now. 263 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: Jacob. I believe the term that I use when we 264 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: see the children who have now been released right and 265 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: are being taken from one place to another, I believe 266 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: that's government trafficking of children. And I just want to 267 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: wonder if we're on the same page if you call 268 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: it that too. 269 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 4: Look, I go by what the experts have said, and 270 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 4: what the experts have said is not only as I mentioned, 271 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 4: the Republican appointed judge called it one of the most 272 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 4: shameful chapters in the history of the country, but the 273 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 4: American Academy of Pediatrics at the time said it was 274 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 4: government sanctioned child abuse. Physicians for human rights, Nobel Peace 275 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 4: Prize winning organizations said what the Trump administration did to 276 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 4: those children met the United Nations definition of torture. You know, 277 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 4: we've all talked to children who have gone through this policy. 278 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 4: They will live with a lifetime of trauma that can 279 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 4: never be undone, no matter how much financial restitution. By 280 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 4: the way, most of them aren't getting any because the 281 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 4: Biden administration's fighting them court nor psychological treatment that they 282 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 4: will get. You hear in the film Jonathan White and 283 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 4: Jalen Sulog, two career civil servants who did everything they 284 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 4: could to help stop this policy, say this is what 285 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 4: they warned their superiors was going to happen, that they 286 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 4: were going to damage these children irreparably, and they went 287 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 4: forward with it anyway. And that's sort of the level 288 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 4: of I think, you know, intentionality. People will sometimes say, well, 289 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 4: how do you, as a journalist use the word cruel. 290 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 4: Go look at the documents, You see the emails on 291 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 4: the screen in the film. This is what they were 292 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 4: intending to do. They didn't want to reunite children when 293 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 4: they were starting to be reunited with their parents. One 294 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 4: official called it a fiasco. The other one said, this 295 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 4: undermines the entire effort when the families were being put 296 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 4: back together after separation, instead of deporting the parents without 297 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 4: the children. It was the point, and it's non opinion. 298 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 4: It's just an objective fact. When you look at the emails, 299 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 4: You hear what they said, you listen to the officials 300 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 4: who warned about the policy. 301 00:14:53,280 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 12: This was the point. 302 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 5: I can't help but think about this idea that since 303 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 5: you were reporting in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, how much 304 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 5: have we changed as a country? Like have we become 305 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 5: numb now? When we're talking about this? And I guess 306 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 5: my question to both of you, Maria as well, is 307 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 5: do you believe or do you expect that when Holman 308 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 5: walks in, and when Steven Miller walks in, and when 309 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 5: we see a more aggressive iteration of what has already 310 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 5: been documented, do we expect this country to still have 311 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 5: the same collective moral outrage as the one that we 312 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 5: saw years ago. 313 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: I wish I could say absolutely. In fact, I'm just 314 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: going to be straight up honest, because I am right. 315 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: We're a journalists. So I went to get a manicure today. 316 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 3: By the way, I love a good many Petty. I'm 317 00:15:58,920 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 3: just gonna admit it. 318 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: Also, So while I'm at the MANI petty this morning 319 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: here in Harlem, and I'm looking around and these are 320 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: women who I know. They're all immigrants. Of course I 321 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: don't know their status because no one knows anybody's status. 322 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: And I just put out, I did a little social 323 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: media thing. I was like, Aha, all the lovely ladies 324 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: who went to vote for Donald Trump and who love 325 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: to go get their mani petties from all the immigrant women. 326 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: Will they even notice if they're gone? Do they even care? 327 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: Because of course you cannot tell our status by looking 328 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: at us, and so it's like, will they go out 329 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: and use their bodies? As Dolores Werta says, it's all 330 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: about people power, right, you have to put your body 331 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: where your politics are. I don't know, and I hate 332 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: to say that. I wish I could say yes. I 333 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: know that in some immigrant communities, people are getting prepared. 334 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: There's trainings about what to do when ice appears. They 335 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: are getting ready. They know your rights training skin, they 336 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: know your rights trainings. So it's getting very ugly. But 337 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: the answer to the question is will there be an outpouring? 338 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. But then again, our country is very unpredictable, 339 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: right There has been massive demonstrations across our country too, 340 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: so you know, anything could happen in some ways. Wait 341 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: a minute about let me ask you about your reporting, 342 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 1: because you spent election night with mixed status families in 343 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: Arizona when you were reporting for Telemundo and MSNBC. So 344 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: right now, according to ford US, there are about twenty 345 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: two million people living in the United States in mixed 346 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: status families. Right, We're going to go to a clip 347 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: from your visit to the home of the ed nandis family. 348 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 6: There sign Donald Trump nass Me and. 349 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 3: My husband we have talked about maybe just moving to 350 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 3: a different country. 351 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 5: You would literally well someone would say, is self deport 352 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 5: You've been thinking. 353 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 2: Right, I feel like my parents and our whole family 354 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: has contributed so much, you know, to this country. You know, 355 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 2: having a business, having businesses here, paying tax is like 356 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 2: giving so much and still dealing with so much racism 357 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 2: and so much hate towards our community. 358 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: So a BAOUTA what have you heard from undocumented people 359 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: and activists since you're reporting? Then, what's the sense of Okay, 360 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 1: this man is now in power and now this stuff 361 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: is really going to happen. What are you hearing? 362 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 6: I feel like I'm hearing two sides of the same story. Right. 363 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 5: There's the one side, which is the story of resilience. Right, 364 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 5: and in a place like Maricopa County in Arizona. I think, 365 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 5: and we've talked about this before, I think the grassroots 366 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 5: movement feels confident enough that they have the infrastructure that's 367 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 5: necessary to protect their people. 368 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 6: Now, this isn't you for them. 369 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 5: They've obviously lived through the air of Juripio, and so 370 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 5: when they say like we are home, they mean it. 371 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 5: But then on the other side, I think the fear 372 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 5: is inevitable. A lot of the families that I talked 373 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 5: to are actively considering things like self deportation, which is 374 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 5: precisely sort of the heart of the Republican's strategy. It's 375 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 5: still so much and still so much uncertainty, and this 376 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 5: idea of chaos that in and of itself will will 377 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,479 Speaker 5: drive people away. I mean, as we know, during our 378 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 5: Pio and sp ten seventy there was a mass exodus, 379 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 5: so many folks went to New Mexico and other states. 380 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 5: But now the question that people have is where do 381 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 5: you go, right if in fact they do implement these 382 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 5: mass importations. And so I think it's a combination of 383 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 5: those two things. I know, I keep obsessing around this 384 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 5: idea of like how will people react? But this is 385 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 5: when Jacob I think of the difference of like ourselves 386 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 5: as journalists and in the mediums that we typically use. 387 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 5: And then suddenly, what is the difference of now exposing 388 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 5: this story through this medium, you know, through this type 389 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 5: of like narrative see in this this word in English. 390 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 5: I can't say vignetes, vignette vignettes exactly. 391 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: You just said it exactly. 392 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 6: Oh, give it, let me say it again. 393 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: We're not perfect. 394 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 5: No, But my question is as a journalist, now that 395 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 5: you've been able to work with this incredible Hollywood filmmaker, 396 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 5: what have you learned about the power storytelling? No, when 397 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 5: thinking about these families that Mariias asking me about and 398 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 5: how we can get other folks to sort of understand 399 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 5: what's at stake, what have you learned around like filmmaking and. 400 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 6: Sort of the power that Hollywood has that we don't have. 401 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 4: Honestly, Actually, the movie is a perfect example of this 402 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 4: because Errol Morris, in all the films he's ever made, 403 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 4: you know, he does these forensic analyzes of bureaucracy, and 404 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 4: this film is that, but he also employs narrative vignettes 405 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 4: and the idea of using fictionalized characters to sort of 406 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 4: fill in the blanks. 407 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 3: And in this film. 408 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 4: He does it to depict a mother and a son 409 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 4: who are separated from one another after coming from Guatemala. 410 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 3: To the United States. 411 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 4: And the reason he does it, to your question, is 412 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 4: that the footage doesn't exist of families being separated in 413 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 4: real time in those detention centers that we went into. 414 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 4: I was sent into those facilities, specifically without a camera, 415 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 4: with a patent paper to come out and describe it, 416 00:20:57,880 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 4: but not to show it, and was hand a propaganda 417 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 4: foot by the US government in order to show it. 418 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 4: So what Erl has done he employed the tactics of 419 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 4: using fiction and tells the story to get to an 420 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 4: emotional truth through narrative filmmaking. And like I said, I 421 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 4: hope one day every single one of the fifty five 422 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 4: hundred kids is going to be able to speak out 423 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 4: on their own like the Shoa Foundation did for survivors 424 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 4: of the Holocaust, but in their own time and in 425 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 4: their own way. And so what Erol has done is 426 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 4: filled in the gaps of the bureaucratic mess that was 427 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 4: family separation with a narrative story that depicts this mother 428 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 4: and child. 429 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 3: In the way really that only he can. 430 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 4: And so I guess that's part of what I'm thinking 431 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 4: about going forward, how do you tell those stories in 432 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 4: the absence of being inside those places? Is there a 433 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 4: way to have families tell their own stories? Is there 434 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 4: a way to get inside? But also, if he had 435 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 4: picked one particular family today, what would happen to them? 436 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 4: They'd have a huge target on their backs by the 437 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 4: Trump administration sactly. Remember, the families that were separated by 438 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 4: Trump and were reunified by Biden are only here with 439 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 4: thirty six months rolling parole. 440 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 3: None of them have permanent. 441 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 4: Legal status, and so at any time, virtually all those families, 442 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 4: if they haven't gotten a green card or found their 443 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 4: way to attract the citizenship, are at risk of deportation 444 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 4: after separation by Trump in the first term. So I 445 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 4: don't have an easy answer. I think it's a case 446 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 4: by case situation. I remember, during what we thought was 447 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 4: going to be the downfall of DOC in twenty seventeen, 448 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 4: I went to a campus with a documented student and 449 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 4: we walked around in between classes live on MSNBC and 450 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 4: talked like you did an election night. What are people 451 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 4: who are in the crosshairs of these policies comfortable with? 452 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 3: Number one is the. 453 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 4: First question, the most important question, and then number two, 454 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 4: how do you do it in a way that tells 455 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 4: the truth to people about what's really happening in the country. 456 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 4: Because I do believe that people endorse mass deportations, but 457 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 4: what I don't believe is they really understand what mass 458 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 4: deportations are right, and what the ramifications of mass deportations are, 459 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 4: and how when they're reminded it's actually really a supersizing 460 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 4: of family separation that we all saw and were morally 461 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 4: outraged by in twenty eighteen. I think a lot of 462 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 4: people who say in those polls, yeah, I'm all for 463 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 4: mass deportation are going to think differently. 464 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: That's because they just think that, you know, yeah, those 465 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: gang members go mass support them, and it's like, again, 466 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: we don't have at that point, we don't have an 467 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: immigration problem. If we have ten million gang members running around, 468 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: we have a crime problem, and we don't have a 469 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: crime problem. 470 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 4: That's exactly right. And you remember Maria who used the 471 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 4: line Felon's not families. Wasn't Trump first, it was Obama, 472 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 4: and that led to more people being deported than any 473 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 4: president in the history of the United States exactly. 474 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: So the thing about it that both of you know, 475 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: but our listeners may not. Is that when they have 476 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: that list of who they're going to go get the roundup, 477 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: they're doing this overnight. They're arriving in people's homes when 478 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 1: I witness this, and actually in La they are taking 479 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: people from their homes at five o'clock in the morning, 480 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: so nobody sees it. And that's part of the point. 481 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: We can't get in with cameras any longer, and so 482 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: then the story can't be told. 483 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 5: What's been interesting even just being in Miami for the 484 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 5: last couple of days. Now suddenly the narrative is changing, right. 485 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 5: It used to be deport them all, and now suddenly 486 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 5: you're starting to hear people say no, no, no, no, but 487 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 5: a solus criminale. 488 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 3: Sol criminals only. 489 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 5: And now is when it starts to become very real, 490 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 5: because now it's when suddenly folks are looking around them 491 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 5: and they're understanding how immigration is deeply personal. 492 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 6: Really you can't really escape it. 493 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 5: Now your nanny may be undocumented and while you're the 494 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 5: teachers has daka and and very often I've heard folks 495 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 5: that that I know employee undocumented folks in their houses 496 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 5: that are starting to say the same thing. 497 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,959 Speaker 6: Well, they're not going to go after after her, right 498 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 6: because she's one of the good ones. 499 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 5: And so, like I've said in the past, it's no 500 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 5: longer up to any voter to decide who looks American 501 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 5: enough or. 502 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 6: Not, or or who's who's lading or not. 503 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 5: Like now it will be up to the Tom Holmans 504 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 5: of the world, who have already been extremely clear and 505 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 5: said pack up your bags. Yeah, and he didn't specify who, 506 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 5: and you know who's part of that. 507 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 6: It's it's a general statement. 508 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 3: And define criminal. 509 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 4: You know, this criminal needs exactly you walked across the border. 510 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 3: In between ports of entry there you go. That how 511 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 3: you're defining criminals. 512 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 6: That's how they define criminals. 513 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 3: So you're defining it as a violent crime. 514 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. 515 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 3: And so that's not a small finite number of people, guys. 516 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: So Jacob, let's talk a little bit about policy, right, 517 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: because a lot of these far right figures are going 518 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: to come back. Right, They're going to be in the 519 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: administration Stephen Miller, of course, the mastermind of the entire policy, 520 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: who is clearly openly embracing white supremacist policies racist ideologies. 521 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: What is going to happen when they are now again 522 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: back into determining policy in the US government. What are 523 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: you expecting? 524 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 4: What I learned in covering the famous separation policy and 525 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 4: then writing the book, and then especially making the film 526 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 4: and watching Errol Morris's interviews, you know, and whenever morese 527 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 4: interview with somebody, you see into their soul because of 528 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 4: the way he does it. He created a device called 529 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 4: the terotron where they look directly into it, and they're 530 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 4: looking at his face and he's looking at theirs as 531 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 4: they're doing the interview. And there's an interview in the 532 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 4: film with Scott Lloyd, who was the political appointee who 533 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 4: is the director of the Office of Refugee Resettlement for 534 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 4: the Trump administration. He was an anti abortion activist before 535 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 4: he was charged with taking care and custody of all 536 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 4: of the unaccompanied, ostensibly migrant children in the custody of 537 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 4: the United States government. And what was happening with Scott 538 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 4: Lloyd is that he was in direct contact And I 539 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 4: cannot state enough how unusual it is, and this is 540 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 4: very clear in the movie, how a non senate confirmed, 541 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 4: junior level political appointee was in direct contact with people 542 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 4: like Steven Miller in the White House back and forth emails. 543 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 4: You see him on the screen, Steven Miller and Scott 544 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 4: Lloyd talking to one another about immigration policy. This is 545 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,959 Speaker 4: a junior level political appointee in the government in direct 546 00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 4: touch with one of the most senior advisors to the 547 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 4: president in the United States about his policies like family separation. 548 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,239 Speaker 4: This was one example in the first Trump term. And 549 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 4: now Stephen Miller, you know, will have more power to 550 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 4: continue to reach out to the people like Scott Lloyd. 551 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 4: And if they do what you know twenty twenty five said, 552 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 4: and get rid of a lot of these sort of 553 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 4: career officials that stood in the way of the political appointees, 554 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 4: it will only be bigger and more impactful than we 555 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 4: have ever seen. 556 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 5: What is the intention of this film now that it's 557 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 5: being released in weeks before inauguration, after the election, What 558 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 5: do you want people to take from this? 559 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 3: You know, I've seen the film a lot. 560 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 4: We screened it I think in twenty five cities theatrically 561 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 4: before the election, and there's a screen in Mexico City 562 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 4: next week, in London and January we have this big 563 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 4: premiere on MSNBC on Saturday. What I hope after watching 564 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 4: it now after the election several times, is the way 565 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 4: I feel today sticks with people, rather than the way 566 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 4: I felt before the election, which was a lot more 567 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 4: We started this conversation talking about anxiety I actually feel, 568 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 4: and maybe it's my privilege in the position that I 569 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 4: sit in, but a lot more hopeful when I think 570 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 4: back to this story than I did before the election. 571 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 4: I think about those moments when I saw the film 572 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 4: for the first time and I was reminded of the 573 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 4: hundreds of thousands of people who were in the streets 574 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 4: and what that looked like and what it felt like, 575 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 4: and knowing that it was the people that stopped the 576 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 4: policy from happening ultimately, and the President admitted that. When 577 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 4: I think about Jonathan White and Jalen Sulog and James 578 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 4: de la Cruz, and I have listed a dozen people 579 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 4: in my head who are career government officials that did 580 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 4: everything they could to stop the policy from happening, I 581 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 4: feel hopeful. I feel worried for those people, but I 582 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 4: feel hopeful that people like that are inside, you know, 583 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 4: fighting for what's morally right. And I think it's okay 584 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 4: as a reporter to say that you don't have to 585 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 4: be air quotes fair or neutral about ripping children away 586 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 4: deliberately from their parents as a tool of US immigration policy. 587 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,959 Speaker 4: And I think the film today, for me, more than 588 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 4: ever before, is a reminder that it was the people 589 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 4: of this country and people around the world who stood 590 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 4: up and stopped it. It was like we had X ray 591 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 4: vision for just that time in the summer of twenty eighteen, 592 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 4: and it was like, I can see exactly what the 593 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 4: immigration system has done for decades to people, and it 594 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 4: went away. People wanted to know less. And I hope 595 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 4: that it reminds people that knowing Morris is a good thing, 596 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 4: and it reminds them of the power that we all have, 597 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 4: you know, as citizens, non citizens, for just fellow human beings. 598 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: Hell yes, Jacob Sobaroff. The film Separated, premiering this weekend. 599 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: It's so great to have you on in the Thick 600 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: with me and Bauda. Thank you so much for joining us. 601 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 3: I love you guys, sincerely, Thank you for having me. 602 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 6: Thank you. 603 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: The pop up season in the Thickest supported in part 604 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: by the Hispanic Federation and Futuro Media's Friends of Democracy Fund. 605 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: Fund sustainers include Depadonde, April Gassler, and kadmin Rita Wong. Remember, 606 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: dear listener, we really need you to go to Apple 607 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: podcast to rate and review us. We also need you 608 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: to click and subscribe and tell all your friends and 609 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: family to listen to us on all major podcast platforms. 610 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: Follow us on the web and in the Thick dot Org. 611 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: In the Thick is produced by Aria Goodman, Innes Renique, 612 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: and Tasha San Noel. Our executive producers are myself and 613 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: Penny Lei Ramirez, who, by the way, just delivered a 614 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: baby girl. Yay Benni le We love you, enjoy your 615 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: time off. Our audio engineer is Leah Shaw Damaran, Our 616 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: marketing manager is Luis Luna and along with Bao La Ramus, 617 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: I'm your co host Maria jo Josa and Yatu Saves 618 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: not Devayas. 619 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 3: The opinions expressed by the guests and contributors in this 620 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 3: podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the 621 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 3: views of Futuro Media or its employees.