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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome in. I'm Doug Adie. This is all ball.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go to the dark side, the other side

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Speaker 1: for today's all ball. J D Collins gonna join us.

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Speaker 1: He was a coordinator of n c A Basketball Officials,

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Speaker 1: So for the n c A term of the guy

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Speaker 1: who's in charge of deciding who is and who he

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Speaker 1: is not officiating in the final four in the n

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Speaker 1: c A terman, j D was the guy, and he

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Speaker 1: just recently announced his retirement. His rise to being a

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Speaker 1: prominent official, as well as how quickly that part of

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Speaker 1: his career came to an end. All part of the

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Speaker 1: story here on All Ball, um. But before I get

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Speaker 1: to that, let me give you this kind of thought.

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Speaker 1: I'm watching the Warriors and I had you guys, ever

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Speaker 1: seen Despicable Me right where the lightbulb right grew as

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Speaker 1: the light bulb. It's the idea that comes to his head.

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Speaker 1: And I was watching the Warriors play, and it's interesting,

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Speaker 1: you know, in sports, so much of sports is his copycat, right,

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Speaker 1: And how many Patriot coaches have gone and tried to

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Speaker 1: copy the Patriot way, the Patriot model and it not worked.

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Speaker 1: And then I was thinking about Duke and all the

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Speaker 1: Duke assistants, and they've had some success, you know, like

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Speaker 1: Johnny has been really successful. He had that run in

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Speaker 1: Central Florida. Um Quinn had some initial success at Missouri.

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Speaker 1: Obviously he had some issues, and then now he's I think,

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Speaker 1: been a very good, very well respected, regarded head coach

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Speaker 1: in the NBA. Obviously, Mike Bray has had an outstanding,

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Speaker 1: probably just below Hall of Fame level career, first at

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Speaker 1: Delaware and then at at at not Tre Dame right

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Speaker 1: Tommy Amerker. He won the first ever n c A

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Speaker 1: Ternament games for Harvard as well as the Sweet six

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Speaker 1: team with Seton hall Um. You know, Woe Joe had

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Speaker 1: to go in at Marquette before that thing kind of

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Speaker 1: fell off a little bit. Obviously, if you haven't heard

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Speaker 1: the Woe Joe pod, you need to need to download

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Speaker 1: that one. So I kind of go off. But the

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Speaker 1: basic premice of it, like, you know, Dukies haven't been

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Speaker 1: able to recreate Duke despite the fact that there's been

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Speaker 1: plenty of opportunities to do so, right, and so what's

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Speaker 1: behind that? And then I was thinking about the Warriors

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Speaker 1: and I realized that not only are they my most

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Speaker 1: enjoyable team to watch in the NBA. But there's also

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Speaker 1: a very very good chance that this is the last

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Speaker 1: time we will watch high level basketball played this way.

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Speaker 1: It's sad, right, It's kind of a sad commentary, but

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Speaker 1: it's very much a true commentary because you have to

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Speaker 1: think about one like, both Clay and Steph play without

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Speaker 1: the basketball. And I don't know what you call staff.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is he technically their point guard? I guess,

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Speaker 1: But the truth is that the strength of that team

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Speaker 1: is that you have multiple point guards. You know, when

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Speaker 1: they when they won championships, they had Igua dalo is

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Speaker 1: kind of a point forward. They have Draymond or is

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Speaker 1: a point forward. They had Sean Ringston who's a backup

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Speaker 1: point guard. They had Barbosa who was a a you know,

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Speaker 1: a quasi point guard. You had Steph Curry, um, everyone

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Speaker 1: really kind of one of the guys who handles the ball.

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Speaker 1: The least is is is Clay Thompson. But the rest

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Speaker 1: of their guys, you know, I mean when they had

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Speaker 1: Andrew Bogan, like that's a great passing almost point center,

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Speaker 1: Yokich type of of of player, so in terms of

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Speaker 1: passing and creating for others. So it allows Steph to

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Speaker 1: be dangerous with the ball, but also probably doubly dangerous

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Speaker 1: without the basketball, and they have Clay. Most guys don't

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Speaker 1: play that way. And if you have one guy that

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Speaker 1: does move without the basketball, he's not your primary option,

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Speaker 1: right gold. Look throughout the NBA, name a team Milwaukee,

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Speaker 1: they played through Janice or you go to Dallas and

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Speaker 1: obviously played through Yokich and you um, Denver, you played

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Speaker 1: through Yokich. Uh Jamal Murray Uh is outstanding with the

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Speaker 1: basketball in his hands when he gets back healthy. Dallas,

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Speaker 1: you play, you play with Luca don Chick, and then

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Speaker 1: you have you know, like even how um the Clippers

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Speaker 1: play right, Like, you know Kauai is not like some

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Speaker 1: prolific three point shooter. But everything he does is either

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Speaker 1: in the post or off the dribble. It's not like

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Speaker 1: he's moving off the catch and running a motion offense.

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Speaker 1: At some point I'll have to do a pot in

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Speaker 1: the death of the motion offense. But two people who

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Speaker 1: run it, Tony Bennett and Bob McKillop, right, are the

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Speaker 1: two coaches of both these players. Plus both of them

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Speaker 1: are sons of pros, so that means they were raised

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Speaker 1: in a household where like this was how basketball was

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Speaker 1: played in the eighties and the nineties. It just is.

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Speaker 1: So the likelihood that you're gonna have your two best

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Speaker 1: players both be guys comfortable without the basketball is infintesimo.

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Speaker 1: Is that that the word a very very small percentage.

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Speaker 1: The likelihood that they like each other and get along

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Speaker 1: and and want to play this way also small percentage.

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Speaker 1: The chance of having a coach who understands that, knows

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Speaker 1: how to teach it, and then has a whole other team,

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Speaker 1: whole rest of the team able to play with it,

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Speaker 1: Like you're just we're not raising players to play without

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Speaker 1: the basketball. We're not. Every everything is downhill where everything

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Speaker 1: is off of ball screen continuity, None of that is

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Speaker 1: off of moving and reading the screen and curling and

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Speaker 1: slipping and popping and hand like, none of that stuff

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Speaker 1: that's all new to people now, but it's really old

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Speaker 1: to all of us. It's amazing to watch, but I

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Speaker 1: think this is the last of its kind. So while

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Speaker 1: we watched the Warriors and enjoy and I think they're

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Speaker 1: gonna win a championship, just remember you're not only watching

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Speaker 1: history and awesomeness. You're likely watching it be played this

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Speaker 1: way for the last time ever. All right, let's pick

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Speaker 1: it up. Let's get to J. D. Collins. Guy's an

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Speaker 1: amazing story, a really well respected rap who became the

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Speaker 1: head of n c A officials. He joins us now

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Speaker 1: on all ball. Uh. First, Uh, we're gonna Jda, We're

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Speaker 1: gonna work towards your retirement and what that means. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but I do want to start there right because because

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Speaker 1: it's a big thing. It's a big thing. Um. What

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Speaker 1: does it feel like now, like a weak remove from

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Speaker 1: telling the rest of the world that I'm I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: stepping away, I'm retiring, you know, interesting enough the process

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Speaker 1: of coming to that decision. Um, it kind of it's

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Speaker 1: kind of odd that, man, I'm gonna work through October

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Speaker 1: thirty one. But at the end of the day, Uh,

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Speaker 1: Dan Gavitt, who's my boss, terrific man. Uh quite frankly

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Speaker 1: a better friend than you know, he's He's friend first,

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Speaker 1: boss second. And I've always told him any time if

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Speaker 1: if if I would be leaving, I wouldn't leave him

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Speaker 1: in alerch. I wouldn't I wouldn't leave him hanging. And

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Speaker 1: you know, people think that basketball season goes from November

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Speaker 1: to April. For a person in my position. It's it's

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Speaker 1: a it's twelve months three and so what I've committed

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Speaker 1: to Dan is that I'll work through October thirty one.

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Speaker 1: To your question, After the announcement goes out and my

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Speaker 1: phone blows up and I spend the entire week talking

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Speaker 1: on the phone and texting doing all that, I'd really

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Speaker 1: kind of like it to be June one. But I've

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Speaker 1: already committed to October thirty one. So that's how it feels.

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Speaker 1: It feels like, yeah, this is uh, it's out there.

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Speaker 1: I'm ready and uh yeah, I've got I've got five

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Speaker 1: and a half six months worth of work to do

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Speaker 1: to put him in a position to succeed with my replacement.

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Speaker 1: So that's how it feels. You you, uh, but but

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Speaker 1: is there like is there a trip? Is there a thing?

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Speaker 1: You know, like I just I just want to hunt

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Speaker 1: and fish. I just want to go to this one place,

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Speaker 1: like what is the what is the light at the

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Speaker 1: end of the tunnel to sell? You know, you had

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Speaker 1: hunting and fishing and you know, I'm a farm boy

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Speaker 1: from Indiana, raised on the farm. Love to hunt, love

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Speaker 1: to fish, and yes, both of those things are in

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Speaker 1: my future. Um, I don't have the next thing I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna do. You know, I don't have another job I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna go to anything like that. My plan is to

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Speaker 1: approach life from let's take it's time to take care

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Speaker 1: of me and time to take care of my family,

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Speaker 1: and that probably will include hanging, fishing. My wife. Wife

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Speaker 1: and I bought a cabin in Michigan the summer of

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Speaker 1: COVID And the more I'm there. It's up near Traverse

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Speaker 1: City on the Mannistee River. The more I'm there, the

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Speaker 1: more I realize I need to be there. It is

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Speaker 1: the most peaceful place I've ever found. And uh, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure I'll end up there quite a bit, doing little projects, fishing, hunting,

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Speaker 1: doing whatever comes that day. That's what I want to

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Speaker 1: be doing. So yeah, that's that's part of the gig. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So you also don't. You don't achieve the level of

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Speaker 1: success that you've achieved in officiating unless you love the sport, right,

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Speaker 1: you can't. You don't go through all this stuff, all

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Speaker 1: this travel, all these years, the initiating camps, all stuff,

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Speaker 1: unless you love the sport. Your love of the sports

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Speaker 1: started one anywhere. So I played played hoops in Indiana

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Speaker 1: and high school, you know, and if you're in Indiana

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Speaker 1: and you're not playing hoops, something something's wrong with you.

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Speaker 1: What high school? I went to bluff In High School

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Speaker 1: in UH Bluffed in Indiana, loved it, UM, couldn't get

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Speaker 1: enough of it. I chose to go to Tri State University,

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Speaker 1: which is now Trying University in Northern Indiana, and I

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Speaker 1: thought about playing hoops there and decided the atmosphere wasn't

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Speaker 1: what I wanted, and therefore I ran track there and

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Speaker 1: I missed hoops. I missed it so bad that I

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Speaker 1: took an officiating class from the from Dick Hak, the

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Speaker 1: basketball coach. UH did the officiating class pass that got

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Speaker 1: my license. And then after I got out of college,

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Speaker 1: I started working high school ball and that that's how

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Speaker 1: it began. I worked in a maryor ball UH during college,

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Speaker 1: just to earn a few bucks. And what I realized

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Speaker 1: about UM about a siating is like playing hoops, it's

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Speaker 1: a team sport. You're out there with two other guys

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Speaker 1: you're doing you have to work as a team, and

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Speaker 1: yet it's still an individual sport where you can excel

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Speaker 1: UH individually as yourself. And that felt eerily similar to

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Speaker 1: playing hoops, and I was very fortunate. Gentleman by Nam

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Speaker 1: mc gary Cheeseman, local local baseball coach and high school

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Speaker 1: basketball official, picked me up and said, hey, you'll be

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Speaker 1: on my crew. You and I'll go around in referee,

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Speaker 1: and he taught me so much about the game UM

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Speaker 1: and Indiana. Interestingly enough, if you're a high school official,

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Speaker 1: you have to work three sectionals before you can work

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Speaker 1: three regionals before you can work three semi states before

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Speaker 1: you can get to the state tournament. So in theory

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Speaker 1: it's it's uh, potentially a nine to ten year process.

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Speaker 1: So I worked about three years, got my first regional

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Speaker 1: and said I'm out and was working small college ball.

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Speaker 1: And he was given away too much stuff here in

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Speaker 1: the good just just get in the good stuff. So

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Speaker 1: your first, your first, your first high school game, do

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Speaker 1: you remember where it was they you officiated? You know,

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Speaker 1: in all honesty, I do not remember the specific place.

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Speaker 1: What I will tell you is the athletic directors in

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Speaker 1: my area, which is where I had referee. Every one

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Speaker 1: of them claims that they gave me my first high

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Speaker 1: school So what what high school? What? What? What are

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Speaker 1: the big schools in your area at this time? Well,

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Speaker 1: in Indiana, I mean, you know, obviously you've got Newcastle

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Speaker 1: High School. It has ten thousands Newcastle Chrysle Arena. That's

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Speaker 1: where Steve Alvers played and his dad cut correct. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you got Anderson, Indiana where you know the wig Wam,

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Speaker 1: which was a place that that's incredible. But honestly, Doug,

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Speaker 1: I I loved going to places like Daleville, Indiana for

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Speaker 1: Daleville High School. Okay, so so dale Bille? So where

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Speaker 1: is dale Bill? Pay me the picture? So I live

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Speaker 1: an hour and a half due east of uh Lafia,

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Speaker 1: the Indiana where producing so literally do we stay around?

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Speaker 1: Twenty six goes right to uh Produce University, and so

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Speaker 1: you would call me north Central Indiana, uh northeast Central

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Speaker 1: and Daleville's you know on I six nine. It's halfway

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Speaker 1: between Indianapolis and Fort Wayne and the gym. The gym

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Speaker 1: probably holds at least a thousand people. But those those

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Speaker 1: thousand people come off the farms, they come, they come

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Speaker 1: out of the woodwork, and they pack those little gymnasiums

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Speaker 1: to to watch. Whether they have kids plan or not,

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Speaker 1: they pack it out. And that's that's the way college

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Speaker 1: or high school basketball in Indiana has always been. Obviously

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Speaker 1: it's changed a little bit now with with UM all

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Speaker 1: the options that parents and and kids have. But those

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Speaker 1: are the kind of little places I used to love

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Speaker 1: to go to. And trust me, when you're learning the craft,

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Speaker 1: when you're learning the craft of officiating, it's about, you know,

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Speaker 1: seeing plays, doing plays, understanding what you need to do

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Speaker 1: with them, and going from a thousand seat gym to

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Speaker 1: Chrysler arena with ten thousand, to the next level, next level,

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Speaker 1: next level, and being able to handle um the stress

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Speaker 1: that goes with additional people in the areas. I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at Daleville High School's gym and it looks kind of

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Speaker 1: like a Hoosiers him right, Yeah, it's likely the stands

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Speaker 1: are come right up to the court, but they're like

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Speaker 1: up a little bit above, right, Like that's like you

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Speaker 1: It's like like Gene Hackman walked on those the sidelines.

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Speaker 1: So now did you did you always stop at the

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Speaker 1: same diner? Like or is it just you go right

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Speaker 1: to the gym and you get in, you get out,

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Speaker 1: Like what you're you're just just Daleville in general? What

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Speaker 1: what you know? Fel's Main Street, USA with a diner, right,

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Speaker 1: and absolutely there's in and I don't you know, Daleville

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Speaker 1: was close enough for me, being thirty miles that it

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Speaker 1: was worth the game. You know, just drive home thirty miles.

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Speaker 1: But you know how referees roll. We what we see.

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Speaker 1: You know, people go, oh, you get a travel that's

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Speaker 1: so awesome. Yeah, we get on. We go to an

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Speaker 1: airport Indianapolis, hour and a half drive for me. We

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Speaker 1: fly to a city. We get a rountal car. We

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Speaker 1: go to the hotel. You have a bowl of suit,

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Speaker 1: you take two hour nap, You get up, you go

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Speaker 1: to the gym. You referee it next morning six am.

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Speaker 1: You rent to repeat the same thing over and over again.

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Speaker 1: So we don't get to see the cities that we referee,

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Speaker 1: and we just don't get a seal. If you guys

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Speaker 1: didn't want to the end, you know, it's it's the

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Speaker 1: old It's thel like if you didn't want to have

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Speaker 1: so many games, you could, on the other hand, but

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Speaker 1: if you don't have so many games, you won't get

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Speaker 1: what they call from war games. It's a it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a vicious vicious cycle. Okay, sofficient, So um,

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Speaker 1: so what were you like as an official? This is

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Speaker 1: high school days? You just start off, you're young, right,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, what what what were you like as an

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Speaker 1: official in the high school days? I would say the

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Speaker 1: I was, um. I mean, you know, after having body

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Speaker 1: parts replaced, I can no longer move like I like

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Speaker 1: I used to. But I had serious gears. I could

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Speaker 1: like from a from a physically fit perspective, I could Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm a try guy. I could run with them. I

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Speaker 1: could do everything. Um, I was um. Learning to communicate,

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Speaker 1: learning to communicate in the at the high school level,

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Speaker 1: and having a veteran official with me, Gary Cheesman, we

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Speaker 1: you know, we break the game down afterwards. Remember when

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Speaker 1: this happened, you should have went to the coach at

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Speaker 1: that point and said X, Y and Z and and

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Speaker 1: he would have diffused instead of him winding up and

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Speaker 1: then you end up giving him a technical foul. And

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Speaker 1: back in that day, I probably reacted more than I responded.

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Speaker 1: That's that's that's normal when you're in your twenties, very

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Speaker 1: very very very normal. And I'm sure I'm saying for

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Speaker 1: the coaches as well, what was what was fan behavior like? So?

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Speaker 1: This is what? This is? What year? This is in

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Speaker 1: the this had to be I'm gonna say eight four

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Speaker 1: to eighties seven ry Okay, So what was I mean? Obviously,

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Speaker 1: this is back the heyday of Indiana high school basketball, right,

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Speaker 1: that's Damon Bailey and filling up the r c A Dome. Right,

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Speaker 1: this is when there was still one state title in

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Speaker 1: in Indiana. So these sectionals were incredible. But what what

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Speaker 1: was what was fan behavior towards the players and towards

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Speaker 1: the officials like in the mid eighties Indiana high school basketball.

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Speaker 1: That's a really good question and and interesting enough. I

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Speaker 1: would use the term rabid. It was rabid. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was intense, it was rabid, but it had limits.

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Speaker 1: That's the difference from then to today. It had limits.

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Speaker 1: Um our our current situation, there are no limits. Fans

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Speaker 1: are fans, and parents are out of control, and and

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Speaker 1: that's I'd love to talk about that. So we'reetting there,

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Speaker 1: We're getting there. We gotta we gotta get there. Back then,

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Speaker 1: it was rabid. But when the game was over, it

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Speaker 1: was over, and all those people went to the favorite restaurant,

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Speaker 1: favorite bar or whatever. They talked through the game. It

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Speaker 1: was over and you moved on to the next one. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, you use the term who's yours earlier in

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Speaker 1: the movie. I'm telling you, seeing the seeing the buses

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Speaker 1: and seeing the fans do a caravan to and from

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Speaker 1: that was that was Indiana basketball in Indiana, it was

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Speaker 1: I would also point out this though, okay, that was

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Speaker 1: also Bob Knight's king, okay, and his behavior towards officials

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Speaker 1: wasn't wasn't okay? Right? I mean, there was the Puerto

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Speaker 1: Rico thing. There was people forget Puerto Rico thing, the

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Speaker 1: chair thing, there was the and you know, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you had guys that went to the clinics and guys

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Speaker 1: that wanted to embody all things, but they all the

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Speaker 1: way down to the sweater wanted to be Bob Knight.

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Speaker 1: As as high school coaches, um, what what? What? What

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Speaker 1: about coaches behavior? Like there's a famous story one of

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Speaker 1: Valvano's books he wrote about my my dad was a

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Speaker 1: coach that wi Milwaukee. He was at Iona. My daddudd

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Speaker 1: he got through and like after the game, like underneath

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Speaker 1: the stands, you know, my dad like challenged the guy

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Speaker 1: to affect that. I was sure you wanted to fight

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Speaker 1: the guy, right, Like, so behavior has worsened? What about

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Speaker 1: high school coaches, interpreted you? Was? Are there any stories

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Speaker 1: or moments that jump out at you. You know, I

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Speaker 1: will tell you I won't put a name on it

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Speaker 1: because I don't I don't like doing that. But I

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Speaker 1: was at Wabash High School for a game and they

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Speaker 1: were playing Merry in high school, and I think it

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Speaker 1: was a marian. I worked the game and within the

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Speaker 1: last couple of seconds put a foul on a kid,

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Speaker 1: put him in the line. They shoot and win. And

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Speaker 1: as I'm running off, the coach are running off the

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Speaker 1: floor of the coach, who happens to be about a

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Speaker 1: six six, very large man, is you know, I can

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Speaker 1: feel him coming after me. And I hit the doors

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Speaker 1: and I get through and we gotta go back a

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Speaker 1: little tunnel and left into our locker room. And uh,

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Speaker 1: I remember two things. One the door closed and now

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Speaker 1: the door slams open, and I'm in the locker room

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Speaker 1: near my locker, and this coach comes flying in, grabs

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Speaker 1: me by the collar, pins me against the wall, and

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Speaker 1: is ready to pull back and just pound me. And

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Speaker 1: he was a big, big man. And you know that

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Speaker 1: wasn't That wasn't a moment that you are not necessarily

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Speaker 1: cherish because in that scenario, as an official, if I

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Speaker 1: do something back, we're going to be in the room.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna be wrong. And as he's pulling back, his

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Speaker 1: athletic director is flying in behind him. Guy that had

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Speaker 1: given me games, I knew him, a great, great guy.

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Speaker 1: And he literally, I mean athletic director is probably six

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Speaker 1: ft weigh maybe two pounds, picks him up and throws

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Speaker 1: him out of the room, I mean physically removes him

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Speaker 1: to the point of Uh. I thought I was gonna

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Speaker 1: get my butt kicked, and here the athletic director comes

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Speaker 1: in and took care of business. Tell me if that

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Speaker 1: would happen today, Doug, No, not at all. Fox Sports

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Speaker 1: Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation.

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00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,560
Speaker 1: Catch all of our shows at Fox sports Radio dot

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Speaker 1: com and within the I Heart Radio app search f

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Speaker 1: s R to listen live in all. Honestly, it's it's

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Speaker 1: really interesting. It's like, I mean, we could get into

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Speaker 1: the minutia of the flagrant ones and the twos or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But but but the this is what was so alarming

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Speaker 1: about the John Howard deal last year is like everybody,

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Speaker 1: I'm I've grown up in basketball, where you throw a punch,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna sit right like no one, No one actually

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Speaker 1: throws punches anymore. And it's because of uh, the rudy

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Speaker 1: tom Jonovitch is right, or it's because of maybe the

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Speaker 1: malice of the palace or whatever, but that all that time,

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Speaker 1: everyone knows it. And as much as um I think

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Speaker 1: some of the ways in which coaches, the rate officials

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Speaker 1: and and they act and their their their decorum isn't

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Speaker 1: isn't right the chasing down a guy and wanted to

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Speaker 1: throw down with a guy like those days are done

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Speaker 1: because and and it's all part of the part of

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Speaker 1: that we gotta we gotta take this out of the

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Speaker 1: sport because it's not it's not okay. And if you

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Speaker 1: allow it in any part of the sport, then you

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Speaker 1: could say, well, you allow it here, you allow it there? Right?

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Speaker 1: Is that a fair way of looking at it? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And and the thing that you haven't mentioned in that, Doug,

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Speaker 1: is social media has changed everything because the reason that

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Speaker 1: there that the throwdown that you may have seen as

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Speaker 1: as a young player, I may have seen his young referee.

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Speaker 1: Video cameras are rolling and that's gonna be national news

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Speaker 1: in minutes, and so that has impacted the the what

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Speaker 1: how it used to be to what it is today. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a there's a benefit to that, because

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Speaker 1: you know, thrown down after a game is not not

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Speaker 1: the right thing to do. However, Uh, the audience is

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Speaker 1: different now, it's the audience of public opinion, and that's

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Speaker 1: not necessarily good either, because our our public opinion is

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Speaker 1: skewed in a lot of different ways depending on which

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Speaker 1: camp you are on whatever topic. Yeah, I also think

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Speaker 1: that it's it's it's interesting and this is kind of

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Speaker 1: an aside, but it's it's what you're talking about with

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Speaker 1: It happens with with officiating. It happens with interactions between

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Speaker 1: people where we we thought that having a camera would

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Speaker 1: would show us exactly what happened, But there's all this

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Speaker 1: time on life that happens before the camera's on, and

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Speaker 1: then what happened after. And there's also like the other

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Speaker 1: side to it, and there's there's all those other all

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Speaker 1: those other issues, Like you know, you see an interaction

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Speaker 1: between a player, a coach, and an official, it's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: but what about the fifteen minutes of the game leading

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Speaker 1: up to it, you know, right and right, Like for example,

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Speaker 1: here's where I'll defend officials. We always talk about like

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Speaker 1: social media hates when an official casts of technical foul

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Speaker 1: and a kid for hanging on the rim, right, And

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Speaker 1: you know we've evolved since the and part of it

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Speaker 1: is you used to without breakaway backwards. Even some of

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Speaker 1: those backwards they would break, and like, what are we

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Speaker 1: gonna do if you break a backward? That's why you

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Speaker 1: can't dunk in warmups, right. I understand it was the

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Speaker 1: taunting as well, but a lot of times the kid

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Speaker 1: gets called for tea, not because he hung on the

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Speaker 1: rim and talk talk trash to do the kid, but

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Speaker 1: it's because the previous tendets of the game. The official

425
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 1: came up to him like enough, right, enough, next time,

426
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to bang you enough stop talking to

427
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 1: each other. Then he gets a dunk and he turns around,

428
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 1: he says yeah, and then you bang with the tea

429
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 1: and all we see is that. All we see is

430
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: the clip of dunk. Look words, technical foul. And that's

431
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: where we thought the camera would would tell us what

432
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 1: really happened, But it still only tells us a small

433
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 1: bit of what actually happened. And and that's in basketball,

434
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: that's in life. Uh. You know, you are a member

435
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: of the media, and and I don't hate all media

436
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 1: much too much to the you know, people think I do,

437
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: I do not. But the reality is most fans, most

438
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 1: people only see what the media wants to show us.

439
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: That what you just said, this this part of it,

440
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 1: not the whole thing. And so that's difficult. I mean,

441
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 1: let's talk about let's talk about and you probably saw this.

442
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: John Higgins arguably one of the best officials currently and

443
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: we'll go down as one of the best officials ever.

444
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: Um goes to a camp where his son is refereeing.

445
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: His son's sixteen years old this past weekend or the

446
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,439
Speaker 1: last week his son's refereeing, and somebody doesn't show up.

447
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: So John walks out on the floor and goes, Okay,

448
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 1: I'll be the number two guy. Let's let's do this

449
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 1: fun for John, fun for son, J J and LO

450
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: and behold. They end up dealing with the problem a

451
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: problem player and the player walks off the floor, flips

452
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: John off and says, you're a blanking whatever. The coach

453
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 1: gets into him who's his father, and goes nuts on

454
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: him like like John, is this schmuck referee that doesn't

455
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 1: know what he's doing. Hey, by the way, this guy

456
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: has worked nine final fours and probably six championship games.

457
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: That's where our society has gotten to, and it's it's unfortunate.

458
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 1: Really is my best John Higgins story, Okay, because I've

459
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: had back and forth with John and I genuinely like

460
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: him because, uh, you know, because you want him. He's

461
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: one of those guys that everybody knows you want him

462
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: in a big game because we didn't give a ship.

463
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: He's gonna call what the right call is, however he

464
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: however he sees it, you may disagree with it. S

465
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: my first year doing n c A tournament games for CBS.

466
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 1: This is two th So the early one we had,

467
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: Wichita beats pit this is the witch Ta that we

468
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: go on the final four. Gonzagas survives Southern's great game.

469
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 1: So in the night session, Arizona's playing Belmont and this

470
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: is not a great Arizona team, but um, you know,

471
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: um they were a bad matchup for Belmont and they

472
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 1: have Molly wamping him. And so at one point in

473
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: the game and it's isn't the first half. It's about

474
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: to get out of hand, and an Arizona player hits

475
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 1: the shot three in the corner and he turns around

476
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: with the Belmont bench and goes bitch and then runs

477
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: and they and John bangdon you know so? So I

478
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: just said on the broadcast, you know, look, I understand

479
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 1: we're trying to cut down on trash talk with like

480
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: quite obviously John John Higgins had and played basketball before

481
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 1: because that's like part of basketball is to talking trash.

482
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: So it comes up to me the second round of

483
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: the games. He's like, just so you know, I did play,

484
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: and just you know, every official in the country is

485
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: gonna call a technical foul there. If we don't call

486
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,719
Speaker 1: it technical foul there, that's on us. He's like, because

487
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: all it takes this one guy saying bitch and then

488
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: the next one it get just gets elevated elva and

489
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: elvd elvate. He's like, did it affect the game? I

490
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,959
Speaker 1: said no, but you know, like now with it at

491
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: that time, you know the technicals counted as a personal foul.

492
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: It can He's like, okay, but that's on the that's

493
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: on the kid. Okay, that's what he knows. He's not.

494
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: I was like, John, I get it, but they're also

495
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: kids and there's also an energy to it and a

496
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: little trash talk. He's like, I understand I played, I

497
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 1: watched I do these you know, I do you know,

498
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 1: seventy a year. So anyway, but the point was like

499
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 1: he wasn't super defensive about it. He wasn't. He was like,

500
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: he was just like, that's the call. Everybody makes the call.

501
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: You don't have to like the call, but this is

502
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: why it's the call. This is the logic to it.

503
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: And again you don't have to like it today, but

504
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call it again because that's actually my job

505
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: to do it. So yeah, I mean I grew to

506
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: appreciate him in a great way. And you also, like, look,

507
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: you appreciate when you look out. This is one of

508
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: the things that's always interesting now but all the transfers

509
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 1: and all the other stuff, but also replacing these letters

510
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 1: like when you walk out and you would see the

511
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: crew as a player, when you played a couple of years,

512
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: you know exactly what you're in for, you know, because

513
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: there's a level of consistency there, and you know that

514
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: I think is I think it's really needed. And um,

515
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,479
Speaker 1: you know, everybody when they lose, everybody thinks they got screwed.

516
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,959
Speaker 1: You know, it's right, It's like it's like Shawshank right.

517
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,719
Speaker 1: Everybody here is innocent. Every losing team got screwed by

518
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: the officials at some boy just just disremember that. Um

519
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: oh yea, So let let me go back a little bit.

520
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: How did you make the joke? Like how what was

521
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: the actual process of going from being a high school

522
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: official and having an official who's kind of overseeing you,

523
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: helping you out? Only three years and they're like, I'm

524
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: gonna go. Do small college have had that transition actually

525
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: takes on. So while I was beginning that high school,

526
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: I also was was moving into small college, working in

527
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: a in a I A ball here in Indiana Division

528
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: three ball here in Indiana. Oh, by the way, in

529
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: order to in and maybe we'll get to this, but

530
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: in order to build your way. It wasn't just driving,

531
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: you know, two hours to a team. I was driving Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky,

532
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: uh for sixty bucks, six hour drives just to get enough,

533
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: just to have the games, to gain the experience, to

534
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: bank the plays, you know what's going to happen next,

535
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: all that kind of things. So, um, as I'm transitioning,

536
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: I worked my first regional game at eleven am in

537
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: the Frankfurt, Indiana gym, you know by the day blue chips,

538
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: that's where it was, yet exactly beautiful place. I left

539
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: that knowing I was working one game that day and

540
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: I drove two and a half hours to Bethel College

541
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: in South ben Indiana and worked a playoff game, uh

542
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: that night. And while working two games in a day

543
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: certainly is frowned upon at the Division one level because

544
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: the expectations. That's what we did every weekend. We were

545
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: we were double dipping to try to get a high

546
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: school game in a college game. Um, that's that's how

547
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: you process. And so what are you What are you

548
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,719
Speaker 1: making for a high school game? Probably thirty five bucks?

549
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: And I probably got paid sixty five to go work

550
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: that game that night. And then to an end of

551
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: what was your what was your day job? Um? I

552
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: worked at a place called Hartford Concrete Products for twenty

553
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: twenty three years. I started, and this is great. I

554
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: started in engineering, went into sales, sales and marketing management

555
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: VP role was the CEO, president and part owner of

556
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: the last ten years that I was in the job,

557
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: you know, develop and we could talk about this later

558
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: in the in the podcast. Here what developed to the

559
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: point where I'm the CEO of a business run in

560
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty employees, and I'm referee in games

561
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: across the country. Um. The only way I got that

562
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: done at the future level was I flew private all

563
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: the time. I had. I had a connection with a

564
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: guy who had a twin engines assessna. I would leave

565
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: the two o'clock drive fifteen miles to the airport. He'd

566
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: spend the airplane. I'd open the door, jump in, We'd

567
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: fly to mass in Wisconsin. I'd referee game, turn around,

568
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: fly back, get home at eleven thirty, walk the plant

569
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: for the next morning at six am, said hey, boys,

570
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: how are we doing? You know, and make sure the

571
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: visibility of a CEO was was present. But what what

572
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: people don't understand is, and you know, again, I hope

573
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: to be able to see more about this, the level

574
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: of professionalism of our referees. These are these are professionals.

575
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: They some of them have day jobs, some of them

576
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: don't have day jobs. But they're committed, they're passionate. We

577
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: want I mean we want to we want to be

578
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: excellent at what we do. And in order for me

579
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: to do that in my business as well as officiating,

580
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: you know, the cost of the private flights was on me.

581
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: Nobody paid for that. I want to I wanted to

582
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: work up to this, but like, what were you charging?

583
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: What was the guy charging me? So I would back then?

584
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: So this is a really interesting story. I ran in

585
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: this guy at a at an FBO one time, started

586
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:21,479
Speaker 1: talking with FBO is the like at the Indianapolis Airport

587
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: there's the main terminal and then the FBO is where

588
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: all the private friends, uh, flight based operations. So how

589
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: about that for pulling some information? Right? So I ran

590
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: in this guy. We're talking and he goes, yeah, we

591
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: got a twin inchin CESSA. We love the fly I

592
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: love basketball. Can I get into the games? And said, yeah,

593
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: I get you into every game I go to. So

594
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: we start flying and all he did was charged me

595
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: fuel and so how much I was again for assessa

596
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: for from Indianapolis, Indianapolis to Madison. So once he in

597
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: to Madison, Wisconsin, he charged me I don't know, hundred

598
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: ninety dollars maybe two hundred round trip and the same

599
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: day round the same day, same day, and I was

600
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: able to get back at be in my office the

601
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:07,719
Speaker 1: next morning. It was beautiful. What about weather? Um? You

602
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: know he wanted. I always say pilots want to live too,

603
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: So if there was a weather coming, he would let

604
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: me know at seven o'clock in the morning, Hey, we

605
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: got a problem with weather. You're gonna have to drive

606
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: this one or you're gonna have to figure a different

607
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: way out. And we bagged the We bagged the flight,

608
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: and I would take a day off and we you know,

609
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: I drive to wherever I needed to drive to. And

610
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: um that was up through two thousand and six, and

611
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: we sold the business in June of two thousand and six,

612
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: and so then I started. I guess the best I

613
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: would call it is is hubbing, meaning I would go

614
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: to Chicago and work four or five games. I would

615
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: work at Marquette, and work at DePaul, and'd work at Iowa,

616
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: you know, at U I see wherever, and then I'd

617
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: fly to a different city and and work those those.

618
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: But prior to that, the only way I could get

619
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: my business, which is my number one priority at the

620
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: time done, was to fly private and it it was incredible. Now,

621
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: the backstory is this plane I flew in was Tone

622
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: Stewart's twin engine Cessa and when he was running open wheel,

623
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: they flew them to all the open wheel contests. He

624
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: couldn't pay the bills. And so when Tony Stewart made

625
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: it a NASCAR, he said, hey, keep the plane, use

626
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: it for whatever you want to use it for. Blah

627
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah. And his plane was at the

628
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: Frankford Airport and that's how they could fly me just

629
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,919
Speaker 1: using fuel. The other thing they did is they flew

630
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: parts for for all the all the car manufacturer companies.

631
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: So part comes in Boom that he used to be

632
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: in Detroit. It's gonna cost him a hundred thousand dollars

633
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: an hour. They fly a private plane up, drop apart off,

634
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: they put it in the machine and they run it on.

635
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: So they were using it for multiple things. But I

636
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 1: got the benefit of Tony Stewart's twin engine Cessna, and

637
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 1: I think Tony can pay pay the bills now, I

638
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: think so. I think you um, okay, So what what

639
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: was the biggest So now you're you're officiate at Bethel

640
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: College in a playoff game, what's the biggest adjustment for

641
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: an official when you go from high school to let's

642
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: say just the small college. What what's the biggest adjustment.

643
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: I think the biggest adjustment is because of how high

644
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: school athletics is is crafted UH and how the officials

645
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: are reviewed. It's it's really called tight, it's really called touch,

646
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: touch fouls or fouls. And I think the biggest adjustment

647
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: for officials to learn to go from high school to

648
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 1: small college is understanding that there's a place for UH

649
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: physicality up to a point, and understanding that not every

650
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: piece of contact is a foul. That's that's the biggest

651
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: adjustment between high school ball and certainly small college. So

652
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: now you're on the small college did you automatic now

653
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: small college circuit? What what's what's the process like of

654
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 1: going from small college then to Division one? So every

655
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: official you know, you get, you get Let's say you

656
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: get fifteen games your first year you throw the death. Well,

657
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: the next year you want twenty, and the next year

658
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: you want thirty. Broadcasting is that is that is the

659
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 1: same right number of number of games. Then you get

660
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: to the now want the good games, right, that's that's

661
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: the work more exposure there is. You want more, but

662
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: not only more games, you want better. Instead of working

663
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: eighth ninth teams, you want to be working one and

664
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: two and and over a period of time you start

665
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: working those number one, number two games in that particular conference,

666
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: and I may have been working and eventually in four

667
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 1: or five different small college conferences. And when you get

668
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: to the point where you're working the championship game here

669
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: in the semifinals here, now you may be ready to

670
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: look at the Division one landscape and thus enters in

671
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: the summer camp routine and getting exposure to the people

672
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: that might hire you at the Division one level. Okay,

673
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: so the summer camp routine. So this is something that

674
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 1: basketball people know, but mainstream fans don't know. Okay, that

675
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: you there. There's officiating camp. They used to have always

676
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 1: officiating camps at big camps. And that's one. It's to

677
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: clean up your game too. It's about relationships and meeting

678
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: people who are gonna be making the hires and and

679
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: making out the schedules. What was what was the most

680
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: influential one that that you ever went to? Well, interesting enough,

681
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 1: the I think it was maybe the second or third

682
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: camp I went to. I went to um um Vin SMS,

683
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,439
Speaker 1: Indiana and Bob show Walter was the corpinator of the

684
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: Horizon League. He was in his seventh year and he

685
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: had never hired an official from Indiana. He didn't want

686
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: people to think that he was biased toward Indiana officials,

687
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: so he just didn't hire him. So he eventually, actually

688
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: that must have been August of of he called me

689
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: and said, hey, I have never hired any Indiana officials.

690
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: August seventeen, he calls me, I'm hiring you in what

691
00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: what at the time had a different name, but as

692
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 1: I like, great, this is what it called maybe the

693
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: the mid con mid No Midwest Collegiate Conference, I believe

694
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: it was called it. So anyhow, he hired me August seventeenth.

695
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: He gets fired on August one. I thought it was

696
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: the I thought I thought it was the shortest division

697
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 1: one career anybody had ever had the follow up story

698
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: to that, and I think you'll find this interesting. A

699
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 1: gentleman by the name of Jim Lessig was the commissioner

700
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: of the Mid American Conference and had retired the year before.

701
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: So he's a retired guy. You're firing somebody August one.

702
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: You're you're in a You're in a bad spot because

703
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: you gotta get schedules done. So they asked him, would

704
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: you do it for a year, just fill in blah blah, blah.

705
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: So he says, yes, he and his wife Marguerite go

706
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: to Florida, and he said that he told me this

707
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: five years later, which was phenomenal. He sent in his

708
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 1: kitchen table and at the time the lead referees were

709
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 1: Ted Hillary, Teddy, Valentine, um Phill, Botha, sid Rhoda. He

710
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: for um Steve Wellmer. I mean some of the you

711
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: know at High Tower work some of the games, some

712
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: of the games as well. So he wrote down the

713
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: referees on the games and then he got to the

714
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 1: U ones and U two's and he says, I'm looking

715
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: at a list of names. He says, I do not

716
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: know any of these people. I don't even know him.

717
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: I don't know who they are, and I've got to

718
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 1: sign him games. His wife walked in the in the

719
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: kitchen and said, Jimmy, what's wrong. He said, well, I

720
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: just don't know any of these people. And his wife, Marguerite,

721
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,879
Speaker 1: looked down the list, stopped at my name and said, hey,

722
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: give this guy a lot of games. I like his name,

723
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: j D. The guy got named j D. You know

724
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: what he's got it going on, and give him a

725
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: bunch of games. There's no way that's a real story.

726
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: God is my witness, gave me twenty five Division one

727
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: games out the gate and away I went. And here's

728
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 1: the reality. The camp system whatever it is, and if

729
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: someone gets the opportunity, you better walk through the door.

730
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: And if if I had peet down my leg on

731
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: those games, I'd be I wouldn't know gonna be a

732
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: Division one official, nothing would have ever happened. You gotta

733
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: walk through the door. But that is how I got

734
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 1: my start. The following year, I went to four camps.

735
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: I got in the Big Ten, got in the Mid American,

736
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: got in the Summer League, got the Missouri Valley with

737
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: Jim Vain and away it win. In my career went

738
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: really fact, what is the what is the percentage of

739
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: the relationship aspect to it? What is the percentage of

740
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 1: it's your about your personality and what it's a percentage

741
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: of the actual officiating in terms of your technique that

742
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: allows you to to grow in the business. You know,

743
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: it's really interesting. My initial answer to that, Doug is

744
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: going to be that the relationship is third because those

745
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: guys didn't know me from a Baila Hey to get

746
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: me in the league. It's about uh, your ability or

747
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: skills and official it's about you know, do they have upside?

748
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: Do they have do they have it? You know, I

749
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: don't know what it is, but I know it when

750
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: I see it, and officials like players, same thing. And

751
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: so as you get into whether it's small college or

752
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 1: division one, it the relationship becomes very, very important because

753
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,240
Speaker 1: you have to be able to um communicate with people

754
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,760
Speaker 1: in reality. If I if I, if you're a coach,

755
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: and I said coach, I got a guy who is

756
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: a sea level play caller. He's a sea level consistency guy,

757
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: but he's an A plus when it comes to communication.

758
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: Or I've got an A plus call accuracy. I got

759
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: a plus consistency. But I gotta tell you, this guy

760
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: just can't communicate with you. Which guy do you want?

761
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: They will, They'll take the first one every time because

762
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: they'll communicate with you. So when I say relationships third,

763
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: that's at the beginning. It then shifts not I think

764
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 1: you asked the question relationship, as in, oh, I get

765
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: to be friends with the coordinator, so therefore I get

766
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: a bunch of games. It's not the friendship part of

767
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: the relationship. It's the ability to communicate and relate to people.

768
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: It's interesting. He brought up Steve Wilmer. He was he

769
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: was my favorite, question, the best communicator ever. He was,

770
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: He's the guy who you're talking about, and like, like

771
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: Steve will probably hear somebody'll tell him about this. And

772
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: so I always asked you, like, why do Steve Wellman

773
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 1: ever do a Final four? Like you know his technique

774
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: and he's this, and as I was like, I'm just

775
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,919
Speaker 1: telling you, okay, I played four years playing the Big

776
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: East to play in the Big Twelve. We played against everybody,

777
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: and you talked about going like you would. He would

778
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: tell you what the other guys were gonna call, right,

779
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: he wouldn't call ship himself. He wouldn't call it. You

780
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: knew you were gonna get a super physical game. He

781
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: let guys play, but he would tell you like, hey, Doc,

782
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: do it again. It's gonna get you. You know you

783
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 1: better back off. Ull trousers got pull him up. But

784
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: one of the best ever. Yes, I communicate, which is

785
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: like all you want, like only all you ever want

786
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: as a because you know how like, look, you're playing

787
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: for a guy who's who you're scared to death of, right,

788
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: that that's the true. But you play for any setting.

789
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: Everybody scared it coach setting. Right, you're playing in front

790
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: of these packed houses, there's this this there's energy positive

791
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: and negative or whatever. Like the last thing you want

792
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: is you can't figure out what are they? What are

793
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 1: we doing? What are we calling? Why is this happening?

794
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: And here's this gigantic, like big teddy bear of a

795
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: guy telling you, like, look, I just can tell you, like,

796
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: you know, look, they're gonna get you next time. Gotta

797
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: call it next time, you know, so absolutely, and I

798
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: and I know those other guys that were much much

799
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 1: more efficient officials. But if you can't, it just puts

800
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: everything and it just puts a barrier up between the players,

801
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: coaches and the officials. And that I just it's a

802
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: bad it's a hard energy to overcome. Give me the

803
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: communication piece um IS is so predominant in what we

804
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: do um as a as a form are an American

805
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: Summer League coordinator in my role now, the other coordinators

806
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:10,280
Speaker 1: we do receive phone calls from coaches, but of them

807
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with block charge, has nothing to

808
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: do with handshacking, has nothing to it. It's what the

809
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: officials said to a coach and what they shouldn't have

810
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 1: said to a coach and how they said it. It's

811
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: it's all about that communication, peace and understanding when when

812
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: to communicate and when to just listen. That is that

813
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 1: is a significant part of officiating success at all levels. Okay.

814
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: So so now you're doing let's just call it the

815
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: Horizon League. Okay, and then the next year you get

816
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: into the next you get into the Big Ten. When

817
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 1: you did non Big ten games, how are you getting there?

818
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: If you're doing the doing the charter for Big ten games,

819
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: for all games you did that, they'll charter. I was

820
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,399
Speaker 1: I was. I was flying private for it didn't matter

821
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: where I was going. I mean, if I could drive

822
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 1: it in two hours, I do it. But if I

823
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,439
Speaker 1: had a Rison League game at at Cleveland State, let's

824
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: say I'd fly in Land on Lakefront Boom, take the

825
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 1: courtesy car they had, go to the gym, work at

826
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: flyback Boom, and I'm back in my house at nine.

827
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 1: So so a two hour drive, let's go mid nineties. Okay,

828
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: mid nineties, two hour drive, give me the give me

829
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: the location of a of a two hour drive game,

830
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 1: UM Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo. Okay. So you're gonna

831
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 1: go to Kalamazoo. What kind of car? You know? I

832
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: I've always been a kind of an suv kind of

833
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: a guy. Okay, so this is this is mid nineties

834
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: with Blazer. What were you? What were you? Bronck? Uh

835
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 1: was a board Explorer. I was driving a Ford Explorer

836
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 1: first and then a Ford Expedition and uh, you know it.

837
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: And the reason I did that was because it had

838
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,760
Speaker 1: four wheel drive. And if the snow went ten inches

839
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: deep that night, I still had to be there. I

840
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 1: still had to get home. What Okay? So were you

841
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 1: do you listen to music? This is before you could

842
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: be on your cell phone the whole time. I am, Yeah,

843
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 1: it's before cell phones for sure. I was seventies rock

844
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: and roll dude. Okay. I would play rock and roll

845
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: trivia with my partners as we drove the games, because

846
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 1: we'd always meet up and drive together and song come

847
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 1: on the radio and you blast it and the way

848
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: you go, that's that's that's how I roll. Okay, So

849
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: give me the give me the like if you had

850
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,959
Speaker 1: a but but when you had the sixth disc change

851
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 1: or this is the great like six disc change, right,

852
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: the six disc and dash you use six discs for

853
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: a two hour trip to Kalamazoo. What would the disc be, Um,

854
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 1: I would have Boston, I'd have Aerosmith at Kansas, I

855
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: would have paint Floyd. Okay. Uh. And I was an

856
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: early early riser on some of you two's early stuff. Okay,

857
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:50,280
Speaker 1: solid Um, Who's who's the best hang in these drives?

858
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: The guy who you loved like a I'll give you

859
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 1: the broadcasting Okay. I'd never worked with the Iron Eagle before,

860
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: and we're doing what we're doing old Miss Florida, and

861
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 1: people don't know that Iron Eagles. His dad was like

862
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: a vaudeville performer, right, and I an Eagle is basically

863
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 1: it could be a stand up comedian if he wanted to.

864
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: He's that funny, and I get I've just been told

865
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: of his brilliance. And so we landed Memphis and we're

866
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: driving to Oxford and I for the two hour drive,

867
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: I never laughed so hard. And he didn't tell a joke.

868
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: He just talked and interacted and he was just on

869
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: and you're just that It's like you gotta pee get

870
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: the guys so so damn fun right, Um? You know

871
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: I have other guys, you know, boog shan beis a

872
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: dear friend of mine and were getting these deep philosophical conversations.

873
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: He tells me this baseball stuff that I'm just kind

874
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: of fascinated by. It's a world I don't I don't

875
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: really know of. Um, but but iron is the funniest drive.

876
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: Who's the guy who used to just love to pick

877
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 1: up and and and drive You obviously mentioned Willmer. Uh,

878
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,439
Speaker 1: if you could, if you could get, if you could

879
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 1: travel with Wellmer, that was always fun. But obviously he

880
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: ended up flying more than driving in a in a

881
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: local setting. Uh, there's a gentleman out of Bluffed in Indiana.

882
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 1: There's actually three Division one officials came out of Bluffed

883
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 1: in Indiana, Steve Skyles, Tony Garden, and myself, Steve Skiles.

884
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 1: Um the drives with him, you you didn't have to

885
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,399
Speaker 1: say much because he was always telling a story about something. Uh.

886
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 1: He had the ability to be really really rude, and uh,

887
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: you just sit back and laugh. You just sit back

888
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 1: and laugh about a hundred different things. But it was, Uh,

889
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 1: those those were the days. And you know, when you're

890
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: working in small college ball, you're always in the car

891
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: with with somebody for two hours Ery Carmen out of

892
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: off you at Indiana just just passed, Uh, maybe three

893
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 1: or four months ago. I would go, we would travel

894
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 1: together a lot and maybe one of the funniest human

895
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: beings I've ever met. And it you know, it takes us.

896
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 1: You know, come on, do any of us want to

897
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 1: drive five hours in a day for sixty five bucks

898
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 1: or whatever? It is? No, So you want to make

899
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 1: it fun and it's it's those guys, your guy you

900
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 1: mentioned you just said back Ian, you just said back

901
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: and laugh. Yeah. Yeah, So for half the stories he

902
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 1: told you. So, um what what what was your go to?

903
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 1: Like when you're steak in shape? Guy? Would you change

904
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 1: it up every time? Like you you you gotta grab

905
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 1: you gotta get food. And this is this is mid nineties.

906
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: Let's just go mid nineties. What were you what were

907
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: you grabbing? I was probably hitting the bob Evans along

908
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 1: the way. So give me a bowl, give me a

909
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: bowl of noodles in a in a hot roll. And

910
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,760
Speaker 1: everybody was happy. And officials typically don't eat big before games,

911
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: so you know it was always go get a bowl

912
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: of soup. Let's go get a bowl of sup. But

913
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: that's about all you needed. And then after the game

914
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: you tried to catch whatever saying saying, which you could

915
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: wherever you could, but you always stopped and got a

916
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: bowl of soup. Uh, you know before the game, what's

917
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: that drive like back with somebody who didn't have a

918
00:49:54,760 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: good game. You know it's uh, officials, officials are there. Uh.

919
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 1: The good ones are their own worst critic. You know,

920
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. If if I'm in

921
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 1: a forty minute game or a yeah, forty minute game,

922
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: I know the three plays in the game that we're critical.

923
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: I know I got two of them right when I'm wrong. Uh,

924
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: as long as the ratio was in the right right way,

925
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: meaning yeah I missed that one call. But we handled

926
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: the game. We did everything we needed to do. Then

927
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 1: then the right home was good. When somebody what I

928
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 1: would call it, went in the toilet where they were

929
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: just got awful every night, you know, the whole night. Uh,

930
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: those are long right home and you try to figure

931
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: out the why. You try to figure out just why

932
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:40,839
Speaker 1: is this, and lo and behold you'd find out that

933
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 1: maybe they had a bad day at work, maybe something's

934
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: going on at home, whatever it is. Um, but yeah,

935
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: we we can be pretty brutal on ourselves and should

936
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: be quite frankly, I think, and I'm guessing your brain

937
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: works the same way that most players and coaches where

938
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,879
Speaker 1: you have that like internal VCR you know where you're

939
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: going back, like oh I do that right, and you

940
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: can question, you can see it over and over again.

941
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: I remember when I was working in the Big East

942
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: start Highland, who's to this day a dear, dear friend

943
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: of mine. Um, he would walk in, you know arts Uh.

944
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 1: He was a coordinator of the Big East for thirty

945
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: three years, and he was also an attorney. So he'd

946
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: walk in with a you know, a legal pad and

947
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: have every playlisted and he'd look at you and say,

948
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,720
Speaker 1: j D, tell me about the play at thirteen fifty

949
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 1: two of the second half, and he expected you to

950
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 1: know exactly what that play was. And so I learned

951
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 1: through him, uh and others that you you know, you

952
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 1: break the game into four minute segments, and you know

953
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: the critical play, whether it was your play or your

954
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: partners play. And you know, one one of my all

955
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: time favorite guys is Jimmy Burke. Uh sixteen Final four

956
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: is never you know, nobody was ever gonna give Jimmy

957
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: any any guh. Jimmy and I worked together to this day.

958
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: He's one of my regional advisors, and he's an East

959
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: Coast guy. He's got a stick of his own and

960
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 1: we'd get in after the game and he'd say, j D,

961
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: to tell me about the play that you had at

962
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 1: the twelve fifty mark. I just don't think that was

963
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: a block. And you know, I'd look at him, and

964
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,280
Speaker 1: a lot of people would because of his stature, Uh

965
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 1: in the business. We're like, yeah, you're right, Jimmy, I

966
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: I messed that play up. Well, that wasn't the way

967
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 1: I operated if I felt if I felt the play

968
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 1: was right, I said no, Jimmy, the kid did X

969
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 1: and Y and it was. It was without question, it

970
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: was a block. Here's where is that? And through that process,

971
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: you've got this major veteran and a younger official that

972
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: that you earned their respect by standing firm on what

973
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: you believe to be right. I could have been wrong

974
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: on several of those plays, and it led to an

975
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: argument between us as to why it was wrong. That's

976
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: how we learned. And you know, I used to just

977
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,919
Speaker 1: love early on, I would just you know, i'd stand

978
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: my ground on something. But as time went on. Then

979
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: you start jacking with him. You know, you just want

980
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: to have some fun, so you you create stuff that

981
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: isn't really true and you you you bounce around on

982
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: the topic. That's that's the way you you build relationships.

983
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 1: Uh is. Initially, there's another longtime veggas official. I'll leave

984
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: his name out of it, but I remember I did

985
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: a game at Louisville and then you know, you're at

986
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 1: the airport and he's at Louisville with all the rest

987
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 1: of the officials, and we're watching the game and it

988
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: goes to double overtime and he turns to me and says,

989
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 1: you know, we called double overtime. I go, no, he goes,

990
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: that's bad officiating, no doubt, no doubt. I've been the

991
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 1: greatest game in the world, but we always call those bad.

992
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 1: That's bad. Um. No, Well, that that was That was fun.

993
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: That was Who would have thought conversation with the ref

994
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 1: was fun? But it was just that. I remember the

995
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: Doug Gotlip Show daily twelve to the three Pacific Coast

996
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:52,399
Speaker 1: tide three to six Eastern time. I Heart Radio, Fox

997
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 1: Sports Trait dot Com here, I Heart Radio app or

998
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 1: have your Fox Sports radio stations I'm Doug Gottlieb. Thanks

999
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: for listening. This is all ball