WEBVTT - Listener Mail: Moa Money, Moa Problems 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.360 Welcome to stot to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:14.600 Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.840 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:20.600 uh so, Robert and I along with Seth have a 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:22.720 week coming up. I guess it's a couple of weeks 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:24.599 from the day we're recording here that we're going to 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:27.280 be out. And we figured in preparation for being out 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:29.440 for a week, we should, uh, we should catch up 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:31.720 on some listener mail. It's actually been a long time 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.240 since we reached into the mail bag, and some in 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.280 the mail bought Carney. That's right. Uh, you know, Carney 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:39.960 has been making it through this whole pandemic thing as well. 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:43.960 We we were tempted to terminate his functions as a 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:46.559 cost cutting measure, but we found other ways to to 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:51.080 cut back instead. So, uh, without further ado, let's let's 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:56.440 bring Carney out. Now. One thing we might want to 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:58.720 make clear to the audience is that now we cannot 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:00.640 look at Carney because if we do, we will be 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:02.840 petrified and turned to stone. That's one of the cost 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:06.640 cutting measures. They've had a safety feature too removed. Uh, 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:08.360 so we have to we have to kind of keep 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:11.560 our backs turned and use some some mirror kung fu 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:13.640 if we want to get the messages from him. But 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.400 we're all doing what we gotta do. Yeah. I don't 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:20.880 know why he had the Gorgonian protocol installed in his systems, 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:29.640 but it's activated now, so we're stuck with it. And 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.320 it looks like this first batch of mail that Carney's 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:34.640 handing us is in response to our episodes about the 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:38.080 Moa of New Zealand, the Great uh, the Great Rattite 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.479 Cornu Copia. That we got a lot of great listener 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.720 mail about this stuff. I've noticed something People from New 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:47.400 Zealand really like talking about being from New Zealand. Well, 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:49.360 you know I would too if I was from New Zealand. 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:51.600 It's pretty cool place. Yeah, a lot of it seems 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.160 to be Middle Earth related. I wonder if the same 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.240 kind of responses would have happened before the Peter Jackson movies. 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.760 But uh, but yeah, maybe let's die right in on 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.000 responses to the MOA, Robert, do you want to read 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:06.720 this message from THEO? Sure? THEO rights in and says, hi, guys, 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:09.600 I absolutely loved both of the MOA episodes. I'm a 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:12.840 Canadian backpacker currently in New Zealand, and I love listening 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:16.320 to your podcast while I'm at work picking raspberries. Essential work, 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.760 even during the lockdown. I especially loved learning about the 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:22.720 extinction and I intend to go on a research rabbit 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:26.200 hole about mica rizal networks in New Zealand forests. I 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:28.680 hope you do more episodes about New Zealand in the future. 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.120 I would love to learn more about Maori agriculture and 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:34.360 the plants they brought with him. I had to rush 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:38.480 through a fascinatating exhibit in Auckland War Memorial Museum about 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.920 the cabbage tree. Apparently there are many uh cultivars of 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:44.600 and many uses of this species, and I would love 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:46.799 to hear about them. We've been in lockdown since March, 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.800 so I really appreciate your podcast. It helps keep me 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:53.519 entertained in saying cheers THEO. Thanks for getting in touch THEO. 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.040 So this next message come was from someone who has 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:04.000 just identified as the letter S. I don't know what 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:06.480 that stands for, but S really seemed to enjoy the 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.760 MOA episodes, but wanted to add a fact that they 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:13.720 think we didn't stress enough, which is quote. Although museum 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:17.960 MOA skeletons were set erect. More recent science indicates that 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.800 they were not so, And this is an interesting point. 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.560 S is correct about this. Like the oldest museum reconstructions 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:27.560 of the moa. You you might see these old pictures 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.639 of how they were posed. They would have the neck 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:33.560 vertebrae extending straight up into the air off the body. Uh. 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:35.640 And I was reading about the centerpiece hosted by the 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:39.200 Auckland Museum, actually the same museum that THEO mentioned, which 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.840 explains that these earliest museum exhibits of MOA skeletons were 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:46.560 based on the posture imagined by the British paleontologist Richard Owen, 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.400 who we talked about in the MOA episodes. But I 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.320 think it was beginning around the nineteen eighties most museum 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:55.040 displays were corrected to show what would have been a 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:57.760 more common posture when the moa is just, you know, 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.240 not reaching up at something, but just walking around ound. 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:02.440 And that would be not with the neck it's extended 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.080 straight up from the body, but kind of curved with 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.960 an S shape with respect to the body. Yeah. I 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.920 remember reading about this as we prepared for those episodes, 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:13.440 and I think we mainly just ended up focusing more 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:17.240 on just sort of the the undeniably weird and amazing 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:20.760 things about the MOA without really getting into this issue. 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.960 But but we see this in other areas of paleontology 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:25.920 as well. We've discussed it in the context of the 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:31.040 rannosaurs Rex, for instance, where earlier um attempts to put 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:34.280 together the bones of the t rex gave it a 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:38.760 much more erect posture, and we've corrected over time for 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:42.680 for what is also a more horizontal presentation with the 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:46.080 tail outstretched behind it for balance. Uh. And one sees 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:50.000 other similar things with other prehistoric creatures as well. Uh, 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:52.680 the initial way we put them together is not necessarily 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:55.760 where we are today in our understanding of how they 0:04:55.800 --> 0:05:00.440 probably um, you know, stood and held themselves and moved around. Yeah, 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.640 there's a whole lot actually that we're not told explicitly 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.680 by bones or bi fossil remains, and that can be 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:09.440 a very interesting to to play with. Variations on of course, 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:12.360 one is posture how the body would have stood and 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:14.960 what would be the you know, normal ways of arranging 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:16.640 the neck and the arms and all that kind of 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:18.680 thing in the tail. But another thing, of course is 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.719 soft tissue. This is actually debate with the MOA itself 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:24.520 is like what kind of soft tissue did it have? 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.480 Was it a plump bird, was it a skinnier bird? Um. 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:30.919 This is an interesting issue that's often hotly debated in 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:35.880 the paleo art world. How to render the sort of soft, 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:39.400 fleshy tissues of dinosaurs and other extinct animals that we 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:43.000 only now know by their bones. Yeah, exactly, and then 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.960 also comes into play with toy dinosaurs. Yeah, you can 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.799 instantly tell if if if a toy dinosaur is based 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:54.080 on these these outdated understandings of of dinosaur posture, or 0:05:54.160 --> 0:06:01.680 they're more recent. All right, here's another one related to 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:04.440 the MOA. This one comes to us from Nathan. Hey, Robert, 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.280 and Joe. I just listened to your recent episode of 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.640 Rise of the Moa, and you were talking about large 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.320 birds that could kill humans. In my mind automatically went 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.360 to a prehistoric rattite that roamed parts of North America 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:19.680 around the same time as the saber tooth tiger called 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:23.560 Titanus Wallery. Now, this is, by the way, you can 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:25.719 look up images of this. This is a terror bird 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:29.920 often just referred to as Titanus. Uh. And indeed, uh 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.920 create the terror birds are are amazing to look at. Anyway, 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:37.600 Nathan continues. They roamed throughout the Lower USA and possibly 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.520 into South America two to five million years ago. They 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.320 stood about two point five meters tall and had great speed, 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:46.640 which people think was their main hunting strategy, along with 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.720 their sharp beak. This bird has always interested me, uh 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.960 and thought you all could compare other extinct species to 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.800 this one. Thanks for your time, Nathan, I've always wanted 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.680 to be eaten by a bird. Really Now, I think 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:00.679 we mentioned this in the in the mo O episodes, 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:04.000 but you actually have done episodes about the terror birds 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:05.640 in the past, right did you do them back when 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.520 with Julie years ago? Ah? That sounds right. I don't. 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.640 I know I've read about them before, but I honestly 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:14.920 can't remember if we covered them at all. Uh, certainly 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:17.440 so the kind of topic we could return to. Yeah, 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.920 because they're they're they're totally fascinating, and there's the North 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:25.080 American connection here. I mean, you'll find examples of them. 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:29.200 You'll find fossil evidence of this creature in Florida um, which, 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.160 by the way, it always it always kind of amazes 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:33.480 me where there'll be some sort of there will be 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:35.840 a fossil like this, and you'll think this should be 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:38.200 this should be the fossil of Florida, right, this should 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:40.600 be the state fossil. But if I'm not mistaken, the 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:44.280 state fossil of Florida is um is a coral. So 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:48.559 sometimes they're they're less exciting, Like Georgia has a pretty 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:53.080 good one. We have a cretaceous sharp tooth that is 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:57.280 our state fossil. Yeah, and you know, it varies from 0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:59.720 state to state. Some have really cool ones. Uh. Some 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:04.600 have multiple ones, like uh, Kansas has both a taranodon 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:10.400 and a tylosaurus, so they have like two awesome creatures. Meanwhile, 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:15.200 Kentucky it's um a brachiopod. It's you know, it's just 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:18.880 like little shells. And not to say these aren't you know, 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:21.400 important fossil finds, but in terms of like the kind 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:23.360 of thing you might plaster on the side of a 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:25.720 U haul truck or put on a license plate, you know, 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:27.280 I think he can jazz it up a little bit. 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:31.320 I am at least encouraged that apparently every state acknowledges 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:34.080 the existence of fossils. Yeah, that is a good sign. 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:38.559 None of them. Have um have taken him back yet? Right? Um? 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:40.800 But yeah, they're they're they're tons of great ones. Nevada, 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:44.840 you guys have an ichtheosar. You know. New New Jersey 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:49.160 has a duckbill dinosaur um. New York has a c scorpion. 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:51.960 You know. It's a wonderful list, you know. I recommend 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.240 checking it out. Find out what your state fossil is, 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.800 and if it's disappointing, fight for it. You know, like 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.400 if you're if you're if you live in for Gina 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.480 and your state fossil is a scallop, you should you 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.320 should be a little mad about that. You should fight 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.720 for something maybe a little more robust, something with with 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.480 claws and teeth, if you can. I think Tennessee state 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:16.880 fossil is a replica of Noah's ark. Um. No, but 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:19.000 it is. I'm looking it up now. It is a 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:25.040 cretaceous bivalve. So maybe, well, I don't know. I feel 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:26.760 like Tennessee might be better off if they had an 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:30.480 exciting fossil as there uh as their state fossil. Uh 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:32.840 you know, something that would maybe get people more excited 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.720 about the prospect, you know, like South Carolina it's the 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:39.280 Colombian mammoth for for crying out loud. I know you're joking. 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.079 I know you believe that all fossils are exciting. They are, 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.200 they are all exciting. But in terms of say, animating 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:49.360 the kids, I think maybe it pays to have something 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:53.600 a little a little you know, more action toothier. Yeah. 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:56.400 Now I will say Arizona State fossil is. Of course, 0:09:56.480 --> 0:10:00.360 the pet is petrified wood from the petrified forest, which 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:02.679 maybe is not that exciting the children, but I think 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:06.240 that one's pretty exciting. So Arizona, you still get credit 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:14.400 for a non animal fossil. Al Right, maybe I'm gonna 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.520 skip ahead to this uh message we got from Tabitha 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.880 about the MOA episodes. I thought this was was really great, 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.640 so Tabitha writes, Hi, Robert and Joe, I'm a long 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:28.120 time Kiwi listener, and yes we love being called Kiwi's. 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.720 Who wouldn't want to be named after a furry football 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:34.000 with the largest egg body ratio of any animal? I 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:35.880 did not know that. Oh yeah, I had kind of 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.160 forgotten about this, but yeah, if you know, there's some 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.480 some wonderful illustrations of just how much space inside the 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:45.280 Kiwi's body, like a mature egg takes up before it 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.679 is before it leaves the body cavity. Oh, this is 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:51.000 kind of like the epic pooping of the sloth that 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.080 we talked about in the in the Star Wars episode recently, 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:57.960 right where it's like its body way is poop it sometimes. 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.880 But anyway, sorry, tab Tabitha goes on. She says, love 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.600 your moa episode, And I thought i'd write and share 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:08.000 moa facts and some insight on the history and ecology 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.640 of and oh, I'm sorry. This is the word I 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:12.840 believe for for New Zealand, and I don't know how 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.800 to pronounce it. I believe it's a o t a roa. 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.120 That's my best try. A reason for the rapidity of 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:22.360 the extinction of large bird species in New Zealand, the 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:25.520 moa and other birds like adds a, bill, swans and 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:29.560 geese is that New Zealand is lacking in plant species 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:33.760 that are edible to humans. There are some fruit producing 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.880 plants we have native BlackBerry with even worse thorns, but 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.720 few plants that produce a lot of starch without tremendous effort, 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.480 and obviously none that have been domesticated to enhance yields. 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.200 The Maori came to New Zealand with advanced farming skills, 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:52.560 but the crops they brought with them from Polynesia are tropical. 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.200 Tarot is a staple crop across the Pacific, but can 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.400 only be grown in the very northern tip of New Zealand. 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:03.840 Some lily kumara or sweet potato, is a hugely important 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.080 traditional Maori staple, but can only be grown in the 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.520 top half of the North Island. In the few hundred 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.080 years it took to learn how to process and exploit 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.400 the few plant species that do provide food, the ancestral 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.319 Maori had little choice but to rely on hunting and 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:23.559 fishing to survive. In midden pits in the coastal South Island. 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.160 There's a distinct change in food remains over time from 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:31.040 mostly bird bones to fish and seal bones, which tracks 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.600 the extinction of moa and other large birds. I thought 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:38.360 this was so interesting um she goes on as the 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:42.319 major large herbivore in New Zealand. The moa was incredibly 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.400 important to the ecology of the islands. Moa and other 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:49.480 large birds distributed seeds which cannot pass through the guts 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.600 of mammals. In fact, I read an article the other day, 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:56.240 saying they ate and distributed fungi, which is essential to 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:58.560 the health of southern beech forest. I think we talked 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:00.679 about this in the second part of our MOA episode 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:02.720 this I believe this came in after the first part. 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:06.920 But she goes on the fungi which isn't retained in 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:10.439 the guts of deer and pigs which browsed the forest. Today, 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.439 many niches left open by extinction have been filled by 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:17.240 introduced mammals in this country, but MOA's role in keeping 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:20.360 forests healthy is irreplaceable because they were one of the 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:24.080 only browsing mega fauna that is a bird. The native 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:29.160 forests evolved with bird morphology, and introduced ungulates just can't 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.800 do the same things with their guts. I'll finish on 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:37.320 my favorite moa ecological fact. Many native trees have two 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.360 phases of growth, a juvenile stage and an adult stage. 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:45.240 Juvenile stages tend to have small or spiky and tough 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:50.120 leaves and grow in spind lee unappetizing bush shapes. Once 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.000 they reach a certain height that moa can't reach, and 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:55.840 this would be three to four meters, they spread out 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:59.120 and the leaves change shape, becoming broader to catch more 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.960 sunlight with out being munched on. The most dramatic example 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:05.720 of this is the lance would or the horo aca 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.320 um and Uh. Here she she attaches an image for 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:11.640 us to look at of a juvenile versus an adult 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:15.520 lance would and and it as it is, as Tabitha says, like, 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:19.200 the juvenile looks basically inedible. It looks like this kind 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.840 of spiky, nasty bush thing. But then once it gets 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:25.760 tall enough to leave, spread out and become something that 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:29.240 looks more like a traditional tree. Yeah, that's fascinating because really, 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:34.520 in in terms of evolutionary time, the moa is barely gone. Uh. 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.920 You know, all these plants that would have uh you know, 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.720 thrived alongside it still have their defenses in place. Yeah, 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.240 that's wonderful. It's like the so so many of the 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.880 other species of New Zealand are still adapted as if 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:49.240 the moa should be there, they're just not. So it's 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.000 like this link in the chain is missing. Uh. And 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:55.040 this is reflected in the rest of Tabitha's email. She says, sorry, 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:57.440 this gots along. I'm sure you've got emails from every 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.720 KeyWe listener you have, because we're desk it for attention 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:05.000 and extraordinarily bored at the moment um. The gist is 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:08.840 bring moa back if we can. I think there's still 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.640 a place for them here. Native biomes still cover twenty 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.000 three of New Zealand, and a lot of us are 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.960 trying hard to increase that and decrease introduced pests. If 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.240 I could see a moa in my lifetime, I would 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.280 die happy. I'd also like to bring back the hostas eagle, 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.520 but that's a harder sell, especially to all the sheep farmers. 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:29.640 Thanks for doing what you do, Keep safe, keep well, 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:39.200 and keep learning. Much love from aote aroa Tabitha. All right, well, 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.440 speaking of bringing the moa back. Uh. This next email 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:44.680 gets into this a little bit as well. This comes 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:47.640 to us from James. Dear, Robert and Joe. I'm a 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.400 longtime listener, first time writer. I just finished your two 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:52.560 part series on the moa, which was totally awesome and 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.240 I enjoyed it immensely. However, is a kiwi. I want 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.440 to give you two pieces of information you might enjoy. 0:15:57.800 --> 0:15:59.840 Number One, we don't mind being called kiwi's at all. 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:03.400 We describe ourselves thusly on the Red the National Rugby 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:07.120 League team is called the Kiwi's Number two. We may 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:09.440 not need to bring back the MOA at all. There 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.400 are rumors that they may still survive in the unexplored 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:16.440 reaches of New Zealand, South Island's Alps and Fiordland. That's 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.360 how it's spelled. UH. It's spelled f I O R 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:23.880 D l A n d in. Patty Freeney, republican of 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:28.200 the Bailey Hotel near author's past, reported sighting Amoa while 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:31.760 tramping in the Alps. He supplied a blurry photo of 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:35.800 what is almost certainly a flightless large flightless birds he attached. 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:39.520 The story made national headlines, with believers launching further search 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.880 parties and two cries arguing it must have been an 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:46.000 emu escaped from a zoo. The closest zoo is in 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:50.880 christ Church, some three hours drive away. UH. Patty Freeney 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.640 passed in two thousand twelve, so we may never know 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.680 if he was being genuine or looking to advertise his 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.440 hotel or what. UH includes a link to the web 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:03.680 story with more details, and then James finishes up. Keep 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.160 up the great work. I listen to your podcast every week. 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.040 My favorite is probably the Mind Flavor episode I have 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:11.760 one tattooed on my shoulder, but the moa is a 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.760 close second. You're the best, James. Oh thanks James. Now 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:19.760 I looked up this picture. I don't know where this 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:24.680 ranks on the Patterson Gimblin scale. I'm gonna say I'm 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.719 not convinced. I am not convinced that there is a 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.800 living moa. It seems highly doubtful to me. But there 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.560 is a blurry, vaguely S shaped blob in the middle 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:39.000 of this photo. Well, you know, I have to um, 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.280 I have to say. This is kind of a staple 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:45.000 of of seeing some sort of crypted or some sort 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.119 of uh, you know, animal that's largely believed to be 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:50.760 extinct in the wild. And it's easy to say, oh, 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:54.120 well that's barely anything. That's such a horrible photo. But 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:57.240 if you look around that there are some Facebook groups 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.439 now that are that that exists solely to sell librate 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:05.240 bad nature photography, and you quickly realize that no, this 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:07.560 is this seems likely. You know, you see something really 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:12.120 cool uh and unexpected uh, and it's fleeting, and then 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.760 you rush to take a picture of it, and chances 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:16.680 are you're an amateur or even if you know a 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.000 little bit of what you're doing. You're you're you're rushed, 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:21.280 and you have to get a picture of the thing 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:23.720 as it is leaving your site. You may end up 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.080 taking a terrible photo of it that does not reflect, um, 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.800 the degree of detail that you yourself actually saw. Uh. 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:35.240 For instance, I was recently walking in a cemetery uh 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:38.200 in the Atlanta area and got to see some wild 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:42.320 turkeys roman about which you know, wild turkeys. They're they're 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.560 not MOA's by any stretch, but they're still really cool. 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.800 And there are rare enough sighting uh you know, in 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.919 in um in the Atlanta area. So I was excited 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.159 about it. UH, watched them in and then I realized, oh, 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.080 I should try and get a picture. So I busted 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:58.560 out my phone and took just a terrible picture. Maybe 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:02.320 not quite as vague as the US, but still um. 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:03.840 You know, if I was trying to make a case 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:06.760 for having seen a you know, a prehistoric turkey, I 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.280 would have really had an uphill battle. Now that being said, 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:15.920 based on what we were reading in researching our MOA episodes, 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:19.679 it seems like the experts are very doubtful that there 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:23.080 are any moa at large in the world. Yeah, that 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:25.000 was my impression as well. And and to be fair, 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:27.639 I think James is sort of joking in and bringing 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.199 up this example. I'm not saying like he's trying to 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:34.000 pass off something that seems very unlikely as as being real. 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:38.160 But uh, yeah, I don't think there's any serious expert 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:42.320 opinion from you know, local zoologists or whatever that would 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:46.920 think that MOA's are still out there roaming around New Zealand. Yeah, 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.160 but still, I mean, obviously I wish it were the case. 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:55.680 And it's kind of the curious nature of alleged cryptid sightings. 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:59.360 And you know, much like conspiracy theory really is that 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.840 by expressing the idea that it might be, you make 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:07.359 it a little more believable, you know, you give it 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:11.159 provides something for for us to latch onto, sometimes in 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:13.720 a way that is maybe hopeful, but also sometimes in 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:16.880 a way that is maybe counterproductive. Sure, I mean, there 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:19.240 are other ways that you could imagine actually seeing a 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:21.480 moa in New Zealand, and that would be the extinction. 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:24.280 I'm interested that we you know, one of the things 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.639 we talked about in the episode was I'm not sure 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:30.560 exactly what the what the best argument would be for 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.800 bringing back an extinct animal like the moa, but I 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.040 don't know. Tabitha kind of made the case like it's 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:38.360 an important part of New Zealand ecology and a lot 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.520 of the other organisms that are you know, had their 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.760 evolutions shaped around the presence of the moa are still there. 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:47.880 So bringing back the moa in a way would would 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:52.400 sort of breathe life back into the native New Zealand ecosystem. Yeah, 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:57.120 we discussed in those episodes. They're what scientists think their 0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:01.880 role probably was in a spreading spores for instance, And 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:05.080 so you know, you take out a keystone species like 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:09.040 the moa, and you know that there they are missed. 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:13.000 They are missed by the uh the various plants, animals 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:17.040 and uh fun guy that depended on them. So I think, yeah, 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.680 that's probably the avenue where you can make the best 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:22.920 argument for them rather than just it would be cool 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:25.159 if they were here. Now, can we also get the 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:28.879 terror birds back? Well? I hope, so, I hope. So 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:31.480 all right, on that note, we're going to take a 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:33.880 quick break, but when we come back, we'll jump into 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:39.440 some more listener mail and we'll talk about soap than 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:48.040 All right, we're back, all right. This next message comes 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:50.960 to us from our listener Carl. It was in reference 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:54.240 to the episode about soap, which was the last episode 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.960 of our other podcast, Invention. Uh. Carl says, Dear Robert 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:00.800 and Joe, just to let you know, an avid fan 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:03.680 of your podcasts, but regrettably don't let you know much 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:07.640 because I'm usually gardening, lawnmowing, debt cleaning, or just walking. 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.040 But you make those other mindless tasks fly by and 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:14.840 I get work done, exercise, edification, and amusement as painlessly 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:17.960