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Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius X Him Triumph

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Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. After allegedly stalking her for months

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Speaker 1: at her home, her workplace, and even while she was

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Speaker 1: out on other dates, sixty two year old Vincent Verdi

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Speaker 1: is accused of shooting the divorced mother of two in

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Speaker 1: the stomach three shots, and I've seen the women's feet

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Speaker 1: go up in the air and fall, and then I've

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Speaker 1: seen him there and he put the gun on the

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Speaker 1: NAIs chin and shot himself. She later died at a hospital.

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Speaker 1: She broke up with him in July and got a

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Speaker 1: restraining order October five, after he was arrested for stalking.

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Speaker 1: He would be calling her all the time and she

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Speaker 1: was like, you have to stop calling me. It is

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Speaker 1: not a romantic It's not okay. It is a crime.

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Speaker 1: Today we highlight the horrific murders of four beautiful women,

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Speaker 1: all in the primes of their lives, from stalkers, bona

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Speaker 1: fide stalkers. They all knew about their stalkers. They were

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Speaker 1: vaguely aware one of them of their stalker. Everyone else

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Speaker 1: in their life knew about their stalker. But now they're

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Speaker 1: still dead. Why Mother's students, a worker at a church school.

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Speaker 1: Why why did they have to die? I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about today for very special women, all dead.

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Speaker 1: One is Lariss saberis an eighteen year old girl, near

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Speaker 1: the top of her class, already accepted at f s U.

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Speaker 1: She begged, she begged for help. She got a protective order.

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Speaker 1: She begged prosecutors to go forward with the prosecution, but

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Speaker 1: prosecutors in Orange Osciola Jurisdiction said, oh, they didn't have

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Speaker 1: enough evidence. This after over a thousand texts, tire slashed, car,

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Speaker 1: window broken in her car, set on fire in the

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Speaker 1: driver's seat, her driver's seat of her Chevy Cobalt. But

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Speaker 1: yet they wouldn't prosecute. Well, she's dead now, she's dead,

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Speaker 1: leaving behind a baby boy. Near the top of her class,

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Speaker 1: already admitted to Florida State University to get her degree.

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Speaker 1: She's dead. That will never happen. Larissa Barrows. And then

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Speaker 1: there is Jania Nicole Gonzalez. She didn't really realize she

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Speaker 1: had a stalker. She knew vaguely that this guy seemed

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Speaker 1: to always be around, but they had never dated. They

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Speaker 1: weren't really even friends. Then one day he showed up

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Speaker 1: at a community studying spot there at North Lake College

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Speaker 1: in Dallas and said, you know who I am, you

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Speaker 1: know why I'm here, and shot her dead, shot her

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Speaker 1: three times. Why the whole college put in lockdown at

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Speaker 1: the death of this honor student. And then a Utah mom,

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Speaker 1: Memory Rackley, a gorgeous young mom in her thirties, was

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Speaker 1: walking her children home from school from elementary school and

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Speaker 1: he started chasing her in his pickup. She flagged down

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Speaker 1: to Good Samaritan. The Good Samaritan let her in the car,

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Speaker 1: but that didn't end it. He ran the Good Samaritan

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Speaker 1: with his pickup truck, got out and opened fire, killing

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Speaker 1: her and her six year old son, Jason. Why all

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Speaker 1: the signs were there? She had called police, She had

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Speaker 1: begged why is she dead? And the fourth woman we're

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Speaker 1: talking about Elizabeth Lee Herman, the mother of two. She

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Speaker 1: was on her way from her apartment to her place

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Speaker 1: of business on a bicycle. She worked at Grace Church School,

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Speaker 1: and as she parked her bike to go into work,

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Speaker 1: he unloaded a hell of bullets and she's dead. Straight

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Speaker 1: out to Sean Walsh with The Dailymail, dot com. Sean,

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Speaker 1: I want to go into the details on all four

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Speaker 1: of these cases. Which one should we start with, Sean? Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I think we should talk about Elizabeth Lee Herman because

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Speaker 1: it actually occurred outside of my office. Tell me what happened,

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Speaker 1: Sean Walsh. I think this is a horrendous story, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: This was a match made in hell. Finally, four months

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Speaker 1: Vincent Verdi stalked his ex Elizabeth Lee Herman, A beautiful mother.

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Speaker 1: Wa wait a man at Sean Walsh dailymail dot com.

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Speaker 1: Hold your horses, fellow, when you say X hello. Didn't

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Speaker 1: they meet on match dot com like in July? They

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Speaker 1: had been dating quote e quote for a couple of months.

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Speaker 1: I would hardly refer to that as an ex. She

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Speaker 1: had already gone to police about him. What did they

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Speaker 1: date two months before she tried to get rid of him?

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Speaker 1: I mean this guy showed up everywhere at work when

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Speaker 1: should have a date with somebody else. I mean he

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Speaker 1: was everywhere. I don't know if I call him an

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Speaker 1: X I think, Nancy. I argue back that you could

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Speaker 1: call him an X day. We're in a relationship for

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Speaker 1: a brief period of time, so technically it's an ex.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, not a good ex. This is like

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Speaker 1: a behind me. Then every time I get to the

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Speaker 1: movies and have a popcorn with somebody, they're my ex.

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Speaker 1: All right, Sean, watch have it your way. I guess

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Speaker 1: the Aussies are different. Go ahead, well, I tell people

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Speaker 1: after you and I have had dinner that that's my ex.

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Um, I'm sure you and your wife and

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Speaker 1: my husband will be very happy together. Go ahead, I agree,

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Speaker 1: But look, this is this is just horrendous. I mean

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Speaker 1: a little timeline of this. In July, she ends the brief,

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Speaker 1: very brief relationship with Erdie. That same day, he begins

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Speaker 1: repeatedly calling her, texting her, sends her emails. He's then

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Speaker 1: setting her chocolates and flowers. The next month, he is

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Speaker 1: showing up at her dentist appointment. He's calling her at work.

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Speaker 1: He confronts her at the theater while she's on a date.

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Speaker 1: He's waiting outside the school wish. She works it then

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Speaker 1: wraps up and he stops her on the sidewalk on

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Speaker 1: her way home from work. Um. Again he's sending her

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Speaker 1: more emails. He's setting her another match dot Com message.

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Speaker 1: He sends her more emails again. He then sends her

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Speaker 1: a gift, certificates the three massages and a letter, and

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Speaker 1: then it all culminates on November one, when he shoots

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Speaker 1: her to death and asked to place in Manhattan at

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Speaker 1: eight o'clock in the morning outside the school where she

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Speaker 1: worked as a secretary. It does not get any worse

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Speaker 1: than this, Nancy. Now, I was looking at the article

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Speaker 1: you had on dailymail dot com and it showed her

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Speaker 1: with her children, and I just can't even imagine. I mean,

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Speaker 1: no offense to my husband, but I mean the times

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Speaker 1: I have to go out of town and leave him here.

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Speaker 1: It looks like burglars home invaders have ransacked the house

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Speaker 1: when I get back, and I don't I'm sure the

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Speaker 1: children are not claim I know that they have eaten

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Speaker 1: nothing but left over Halloween candy, and everything's just gone

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Speaker 1: to hell and handbasket. And I'm looking at those two children,

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Speaker 1: and it's not just that. It's not just you know,

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Speaker 1: veggies on the table and being bright and neat and

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Speaker 1: clean on the way to schools. It's having your mom.

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Speaker 1: It's having your mom. It's there's when I look at

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Speaker 1: those children, it just broke my heart. Sean, watch what

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Speaker 1: what more can you tell me. And here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: She's a mother of two beautiful children, a single mother

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Speaker 1: of two. So these kids have lost the parents they

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Speaker 1: live with. It's horrendous. And from all accounts, she was

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Speaker 1: a wonderful mum. She was a valued member of the

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Speaker 1: school community. She'd been at the school for many, many years.

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Speaker 1: And not only has she left behind her own kids,

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Speaker 1: it's all those little kids that would see her every

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Speaker 1: day when they turned up to school here in New

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Speaker 1: York that now won't have her in their life as well.

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Speaker 1: So the effects of this devastating crime was simply profound.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to run real high profile lawyer joining me

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Speaker 1: out of l a who specializes in restraining orders. Also

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Speaker 1: with me, in addition to Sean Wall daily mail dot

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Speaker 1: Com is Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, forensics expert, professor

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Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University. Renowned psychologists joining me out of Manhattan,

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Speaker 1: Karen Stark and Wendy Patrick. California Prosecutor Ron Rail. I

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Speaker 1: remember all the stalking cases that I prosecuted, and I

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Speaker 1: would tell the women to their face, and I felt

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Speaker 1: really bad about it. I'd say, you know that piece

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Speaker 1: of paper you you brought today. It means nothing outside

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Speaker 1: this courthouse, that piece of paper is not going to

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Speaker 1: stop him. Nothing is gonna stop him unless he's behind bars.

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Speaker 1: And that's my job. That's my job to put him

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Speaker 1: behind bars. But let me warn you, he'll get out

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Speaker 1: unless he is a convicted murderer. He will get parole

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Speaker 1: and a lot quickly, a lot more quickly than you think.

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Speaker 1: So I'm definitely gonna do my part, but you sadly

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Speaker 1: have to do your part to protect yourself. Ron Rail,

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Speaker 1: in some of these cases, I just don't get it.

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Speaker 1: Why why have a bother to get a protective order?

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Speaker 1: Ron Rail? Yeah, Actually, Nancy, Uh, I've got a little

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Speaker 1: different perspective. I know people say, you know, it's it's

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Speaker 1: not worth the paper has written on toilet paper, this

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Speaker 1: and that. But let's look at some of the facts

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Speaker 1: of for example, a couple of these cases um with

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Speaker 1: like Elizabeth Herman, there was a protective order and I

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Speaker 1: believe that was issued in connection with the criminal case.

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Speaker 1: And so by the time that you know, you get

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Speaker 1: to a criminal case, sometimes the d A is not

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Speaker 1: gonna They're not gonna prosecute unless they can win this thing.

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Speaker 1: Right that we can hear from your other gifts on that. No, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I don't agree that a prosecutor does not prosecuted case

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Speaker 1: unless they think they can win. Because I've got to

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Speaker 1: be honest. I tried before juries over a hundred cases.

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Speaker 1: I pled close to ten thousand cases, I guess over

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Speaker 1: ten years, and tried many many more bench trials and

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Speaker 1: unlimited I don't even know how many juvenile trials. I

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Speaker 1: never thought I was gonna win, never once I went

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Speaker 1: into it, because I knew they did it and they

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Speaker 1: wouldn't play guilty. So what am I gonna do? Just go, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you can go heck, no, you don't just try a

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Speaker 1: case when you think you're gonna win it. You try

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Speaker 1: because it's the right thing to do. Well, let's let's

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Speaker 1: look at the d A is gonna file when they've

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Speaker 1: got to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. But let's look

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Speaker 1: into my arena, which is family law. It's a civil case.

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Speaker 1: The burden of proof is a preponderance of the evidence.

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Speaker 1: So let's take a look at Elizabeth Herman and I noticed,

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Speaker 1: like in August when he showed up that her dentist appointment,

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Speaker 1: he called her several times he confronted her while she

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Speaker 1: was on a date. That's before the DA ever filed anything. Right, well,

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Speaker 1: if if she would have known, um, if she went

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Speaker 1: into family court and got a restraining order. Out here

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Speaker 1: in California, you can get a restraining order if somebody

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Speaker 1: looks at you cross side. So so if if you

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Speaker 1: can show their disturbing your peace, or you know, you

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Speaker 1: believe they're stalking you, and you convinced the judge chance

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Speaker 1: that that's going on, then you get that restraining or

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Speaker 1: it's in places in the police system. You it's a

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Speaker 1: piece of paper, but you're nipping it early on. So

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Speaker 1: he's in the system, and you start with all these

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Speaker 1: times when people see him around and you take him in,

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Speaker 1: you file the contempt. Even if the DA is not involved.

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Speaker 1: You get it in the system early and and if

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Speaker 1: he I think it's it's something that maybe could have occurred,

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Speaker 1: And in this case, it's it's kind of all the

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Speaker 1: way down the line when you've got the d A involved.

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Speaker 1: Ron Reil, she did have She did have a protector

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Speaker 1: order against him. He was arrested on October four for

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Speaker 1: stalking her and she was given a protective order against him.

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Speaker 1: He was also ordered to turn over any and all

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Speaker 1: guns he may possess. You know, he shot her dead

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Speaker 1: and his lawyers told the court he didn't have any guns. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so there was an order in place that aside. I

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Speaker 1: hear what you're saying, Ron Reel, and this is your expertise.

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Speaker 1: You are saying that it's you only need a preponderance

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Speaker 1: of evidence, which is a little it's like suggestion to

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Speaker 1: the judge is a judge not a jury, that this

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Speaker 1: is happening, and you can get a civil protective order

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Speaker 1: against them, right, and that that can be done. It

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Speaker 1: It happens all the time. People say that that that

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Speaker 1: statutory scheme is abused too much because people are running

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Speaker 1: in and getting restraining orders for for you know, five

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Speaker 1: text messages. You know. It's so it's depend on that

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Speaker 1: that day, who your judge is and how convincing you are.

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Speaker 1: But it's available. It's a remedy. It's not criminal. You're

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Speaker 1: not gonna go to jail unless you end up violating

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Speaker 1: it somehow. But yeah, it's a remedy that people can

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Speaker 1: take advantage of. And and uh, the public doesn't really

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Speaker 1: know about it all the time. If you're not in

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Speaker 1: the middle of a divorce or something, or if you're

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Speaker 1: in a dating relationship, and by the way, it's just

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Speaker 1: a dating relationship. You don't have to really uh, you

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Speaker 1: go on a couple of dates and you qualify as

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Speaker 1: the statutory scheme. You know so. But that is something

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Speaker 1: unfortunately to Karen Stark psychologists joining me out of New York.

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Speaker 1: Karen start, there's a misguided theory that they can flowers

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Speaker 1: and the flowers and the chocolate and the chocolate and

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Speaker 1: the showing up at the door and the showing up

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Speaker 1: here and there and the begging and all that, that

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Speaker 1: it's romantic. It's not romantic. It's a crime here. And

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Speaker 1: how have we gotten that so confused? Well, because people

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Speaker 1: have this idea that when somebody really loves you, if

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Speaker 1: they do all these things, it's a it's a sign

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Speaker 1: that it's a wonderful thing. You're being romanced. Um, here's

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Speaker 1: your white knight. But the truth is these people are

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Speaker 1: extremely disturbed, they're narcissistic. They have to control and it

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Speaker 1: is not the fault of the victim, it's the fault

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Speaker 1: of the stalker. They have usually have terrible low self

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Speaker 1: esteem and they can't feel rejection. They don't learn from

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Speaker 1: their experience. The worst problem here, Nancy, is that he

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Speaker 1: wasn't He was jailed for seven days. It won't stop him.

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Speaker 1: He thinks that he's above the law, that somehow he

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Speaker 1: can convince this person that he loves them and get

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Speaker 1: them to love him, and he must have their love.

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Speaker 1: He can't live without it. That's what he believes. You know,

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Speaker 1: they met on They met on match dot com, and

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Speaker 1: they were not very far into their alleged relationship before

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Speaker 1: she tried to break it off. Two Sean wash Deal

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Speaker 1: Email dot com. Sean, this happened right outside your office.

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Speaker 1: It didn't what do you recall it was? It was interesting.

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Speaker 1: I was on my way into the office and one

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Speaker 1: of my colleagues said to me, Oh, there's been some

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Speaker 1: loud noises outside another police are here, and um, this

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Speaker 1: poor lady was clicking in her city bike when she

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Speaker 1: was confronted by him and shot in the stomach. And

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Speaker 1: the people were running everywhere, kids were arriving at school

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Speaker 1: because the school is across the street. It was simply

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Speaker 1: horrific and something that no one could see. And then

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Speaker 1: he shot himself. He didn't he didn't end up killing himself.

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Speaker 1: He's still in the hospital recovering. He shot himself in

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Speaker 1: the head and the bullet kind of went to the

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Speaker 1: opposite direction that resulted in it not being a fatal shooting.

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Speaker 1: So he's still recovering in the hospital. Nancy, So okay.

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Speaker 1: He lives and she dies and her children are left

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Speaker 1: two grow up without their mother. She was a single mom. Uh,

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Speaker 1: she were there at Grace Church School. This is what

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Speaker 1: I can tell you. You cannot ignore a stalker. It's

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Speaker 1: a common reaction to ignore and hope it goes away.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't work. Do not engage with your stalker, but

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Speaker 1: be alert. Avoid contact no matter how many times they

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Speaker 1: call our text don't keep writing back. Stop texting me,

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Speaker 1: stop calling me. Do it once, do it twice, and

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Speaker 1: then stop. Avoid contact. Enhance security, check your locks, alarms, cameras,

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Speaker 1: change your route to work in school. The stories we're

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Speaker 1: telling you about today, all four of them, is because

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Speaker 1: the killers knew their love, objects, routes, and whereabouts. Tell

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Speaker 1: people in your life about the threat. Document all the messages,

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Speaker 1: the voice smails, the letters the cards that so called gifts.

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Speaker 1: Document items that are damaged, if your car is keyed,

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Speaker 1: if your ties are slashed, if your door is kicked in,

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Speaker 1: trust your instincts. I'm telling you, when you get a feeling,

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Speaker 1: it's not just a hunch, it's something that's bred over

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Speaker 1: thousands of years within the human mind. It could be

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Speaker 1: something you saw, something you smelled, something you heard, something

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Speaker 1: you remember, a feeling. You call it a feeling. Oh no,

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Speaker 1: it's a thousand things telling you be careful and develop

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Speaker 1: a plan. When you are afraid and you're in danger,

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Speaker 1: it is so hard to keep your head. I no,

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Speaker 1: develop a safety plan, a place to go, a way

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Speaker 1: to get out what you're going to do or say

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Speaker 1: when you are confronted by today's serious x M program

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Speaker 1: We're talking about four cases that really touched my heart

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Speaker 1: when I read about them. All four beautiful ladies that

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Speaker 1: lay behind children, one of them a college sophomore sitting

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Speaker 1: the communal study area when she was gunned down. With me,

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Speaker 1: Ron Rail, Wendy Patrick, Karen Start, Joseph Scott Morgan, and

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Speaker 1: Sean Walsh with Daily mail dot Com. I want to

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Speaker 1: go out to Wendy Patrick, California veteran prosecutor. Wendy, is

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Speaker 1: so great to have you with us, You know so

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Speaker 1: often we see restraining orders turn in to felonies. Why, Wendy,

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Speaker 1: Why in this day and age, are we still dealing

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Speaker 1: with stalkers. Yeah, Nancy, it's such a great question, and

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for tackling this topic. You know,

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Speaker 1: stocking is invisible epidemic, as you know, because a lot

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Speaker 1: of the time, even well meeting law enforcement officers, they

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Speaker 1: want to see march, they want to see bruises. But

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Speaker 1: what I always advise stocking victims, and I'm sure you

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Speaker 1: do the same, is that invisible trauma is in and

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Speaker 1: of itself corroborative evidence. Why because of the things that

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Speaker 1: we've all just been talking about, getting restraining orders, telling

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Speaker 1: a door person to look out for this particular person,

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Speaker 1: telling friends and family about your fear. You know, absence

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Speaker 1: makes the heart grow fonder. As we say, it's not

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Speaker 1: out of sight, out of mind for stalkers. And some

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Speaker 1: of these people aren't crazy for you, So there is

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Speaker 1: no reasoning. I always like to say, Nancy, don't become

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Speaker 1: a human slot machine, ignoring twenty nine phone calls only

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Speaker 1: to pick up on the thirties in the hopes of

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Speaker 1: being nice and talking the stalker out of his behavior,

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Speaker 1: not gonna work, not gonna happen. And the way to

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Speaker 1: answer your question we can continue to fight against this

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Speaker 1: is to do exactly what this woman did and then

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Speaker 1: follow that up with a police report. As soon as

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Speaker 1: somebody violates in order, if there's a stock in case

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Speaker 1: filed in most states, that's an aggrement that can add

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Speaker 1: to the amount of time they serve when we catch

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Speaker 1: him or her again. So it's a matter of being

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Speaker 1: both proactive and reactive, and you know, and we just

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Speaker 1: hope that with increased sensitivity and focus on this issue

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Speaker 1: that we collectively can stamp it out. You know Windy Patrick,

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Speaker 1: California prosecutor how domestic Domrail's domestic relation calls to nine

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Speaker 1: one one were paid for many, many years, until one

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Speaker 1: after the next, after the next, body started to pile

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Speaker 1: up and suddenly cops were forcing typically the man out

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Speaker 1: of the house, documenting everything, putting somebody in jail, and

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00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,879
Speaker 1: they got serious about it, just like teachers having to

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Speaker 1: start reporting abuse on children. People got serious about it.

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Speaker 1: I wonder what it's going to take before we realize

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Speaker 1: that stalking turns into homicide or aggravated assault or or

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Speaker 1: a great property damage. Then I think a standard protocol

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Speaker 1: will be put into place by cops because in this case,

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Speaker 1: she had a protective order. She saw him that morning

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Speaker 1: in the area. She talked to her doorman about it.

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Speaker 1: She was dead fifteen minutes later when she rode her

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Speaker 1: bike to work. I want to talk about these three

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00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 1: other cases. There's the Utah mom memory rack Ley. That

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Speaker 1: case really got to me, Shaun Walsh, Daily Mail dot com.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about it? I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: just another one of these horrible, horrible cases. I mean,

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Speaker 1: these women. Shouldn't you put in these positions, Nancy, where

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Speaker 1: this sort of stuff occurs. I mean, I was, we

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Speaker 1: were absolutely stundard Delia dot com with the situation behind

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Speaker 1: her untimely death. Hold on, there are a couple of

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Speaker 1: highlights before you get going, Shawn Walsh. Then I want

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00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 1: to to to make very clear this Utah mom um

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Speaker 1: was married, but for whatever reason, either they were separated

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Speaker 1: or they're taking a break in their relationship. She had

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Speaker 1: had a couple of meetings with and I'm not even

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Speaker 1: gonna dignify it as a date because I don't know

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00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 1: that it was a date with this bodybuilder. I mean,

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00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 1: when you look at pictures of him, he's got this

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00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: spray tan and he's like posing for all these selfies.

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00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 1: He does have a body like a Greek god. If

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Speaker 1: you're into that kind of thing. I always say, if

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00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: my husband starts pumping iron, working out five hours a day,

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00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: I'm getting a divorce because I want him at work,

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00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 1: dial on that phone and punching that computer laptop. You know,

409
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 1: get to work, get out of the gym. Okay to

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00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 1: stay alive, that's all you gotta do. This guy was

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00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 1: just totally pumped up. It made me wonder if he

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00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: used steroids. So anyway, he meets his gorgeous young mom,

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00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: Memory Rackley, there is no relationship, and he gets obsessed

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00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: just before to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. Just before he

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Speaker 1: comes and follows her as she's walking her two little

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Speaker 1: boys home from elementary school. He put ominous postings on

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00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: the web. One was a creepy clown. One was a

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00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 1: little boy saying I've got a secret, but I can't

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00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: tell you. Then he made this post about Memory saying,

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Speaker 1: I met you six months ago and I'm so in

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Speaker 1: love and I'm proud of you, but you keep me

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Speaker 1: a secret. Why what do I have to do? To

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00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 1: stop you from keeping me a secret. Well, I'd want

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00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 1: to keep him a secret to for Pete's sake, especially,

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00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: you know, if I'm trying to get back with my

426
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: husband blah blah, and I've got this this bodybuilder thud

427
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: chasing me around town. Wendy, all the signs were there.

428
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: She call police when he wouldn't stop calling her, and

429
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: nothing was done. Wendy Patrick. Yeah. The problem that nothing

430
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 1: was done oftentimes is a sign of the times. And

431
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: again it goes back to this belief that, gosh, if

432
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: there are no signs and symptoms that we can photograph,

433
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: when we can document forensically, we're going to concentrate on

434
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 1: the murders. You know, law enforcement doesn't want to think

435
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: that that's the way they operate, and they really don't.

436
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: They do the best that they can. Sometimes sometimes it's

437
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: a function of really trying to get the evidence they need,

438
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: but sometimes they're unaware that the law does criminalize the

439
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 1: kinds of things that we're talking about. We don't have

440
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: to wait still somebody breaks intil somebody's got an injury,

441
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: until somebody is shot in the stomach. In front of

442
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 1: the Daily Mail in New York City, we don't have

443
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: to wait for that. There is clearly enough. And Nancy,

444
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: I think the fact that we're all discussing it today

445
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: is the kind of thing we need to do more

446
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 1: to let everybody know that there is help and that

447
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,959
Speaker 1: there are things law enforces will do, and that we

448
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: are taking this far more seriously. I can't tell you

449
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: how many Stocking cases I've prosecuted that jurors are thrilled

450
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: that was somebody shook this seriously because the evidence is there,

451
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: the evidence of calling of unwanted conducts some of these cases.

452
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,959
Speaker 1: I mean, these guys just a boldness to show up

453
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: when the woman's on another on the date with another man.

454
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: That kind of boldness unfortunately translates with how easy this

455
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: protends to get done into deadly results. So I think

456
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: what we can do collectively is what what we're doing

457
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: right now is letting everybody know you don't need to

458
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: wait till any kind of physical injury is inflicted to

459
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 1: have a righteous talk in case that can be prosecuted

460
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: and convicted in a court of law. You know another issue,

461
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: and I'll give you amen to that one, Wendy Patrick.

462
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: You know in this case of memory Rackley Shaun Walsh

463
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: dailymail dot com. There were all the warning signs. He

464
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 1: was posting these ominous threats on social media. He was

465
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: calling and testing her NonStop. She called police to make

466
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: him leave her alone, and within seventy two hours of

467
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: that phone call, she was dead. Seawan Walsh. He went

468
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: to the elementary school and waited, lay in wait for

469
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: her to come out with her two little boys. When

470
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 1: she saw him and flagged down a good Samaritan lady

471
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 1: in a car and got in the car. He rammed

472
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,719
Speaker 1: the car with his pickup from behind, and the car stopped,

473
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: and he jumped out and opened fire. He shot her dad,

474
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: He shot her six year old little boy, Jay's dead.

475
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: He shot an eleven year old girl that happened to

476
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: be in the car with her mom, and everybody else

477
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: ran for their lives. Can you imagine her eleven year

478
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: old son running for his life and looking back and

479
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,959
Speaker 1: seeing his mom bleed out trying to trying to protect

480
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: the six year old little boy. I mean, Sean, it

481
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: made me physically sick when I read about that. You know, Sean,

482
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: my children, my twins are ten. Can you imagine my

483
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: little babies turning around and seeing me protect their twin

484
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: as they had to run away from a bleeding out

485
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: on the street, Sean Walsh And it's horrendous and I'll

486
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: live with this for the rest of their lives. And

487
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: I mean witnesses on the scene said that he was

488
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: truly determined to get that car. He was out to

489
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,239
Speaker 1: get her. She had no hope and look at the

490
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: tragic ending. I mean, it's it's what night Manthon made off.

491
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: You know, Joseph's got Morgan death investigator forensics expert joining me,

492
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: Joe Scott. I can't really stress it enough, your death

493
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: scene investigator, how many just I want you to dig

494
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: deep murder scenes and death says that you've evaluated have

495
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: been a result of domestic relationship. To this day, remember

496
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: the very first so called murder suicide and it's commonly

497
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: what we referred to them as that I worked in

498
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: New Orleans back in the early eighties and still to

499
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: this day, I remember the last one I've worked in

500
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: Atlanta all those years later in the two thousand's before

501
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: I went into academia. Uh, it's a key to a

502
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: dog chasing its tail in the yard. Nothing never gets accomplished. Uh,

503
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: there's a disconnect with reality I found, Uh, people do

504
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: not believe this is going to happen to them. I

505
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: stood over the bodies of countless people, not only at

506
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: the scene, but also in the morgue. And when you're

507
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: sitting there and you're looking at these people, many of

508
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: them you know, in the flower of their youth. Uh,

509
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: and they've lived out this fantasy world, both the perpetrator

510
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: and maybe to a certain extent of victims where they

511
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: don't believe that this bad thing can happen to them

512
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: and they're struck in the face. I think that with

513
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: the reality of it and the general public at large

514
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: and around college students now that engage in this behavior

515
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: where we have stocking that occurs uh, you know uh

516
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: many times, and and and young women are are just

517
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: oblivious to it. Many times they don't realize the danger

518
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,959
Speaker 1: that they put themselves in. I found it very interesting

519
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: a moment ago you were talking to caring about this

520
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: this fellow showing up with chocolates and flowers, And didn't

521
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: that a real dichotomy when you think that, yeah, he

522
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: shows up with flowers, He shows up with chocolates, and

523
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: then the next thing he shows up with is a firearm.

524
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: Um and that's the way it goes down. Many times

525
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: where this happens, they reach out to these people, they

526
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: try to get their attention to service their own purposes,

527
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: and when they can't have them, it's like some petulant

528
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: child that finally throws a bit, kills this poor innocent

529
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: person and then attempts to take their life. Many times

530
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: they succeed, many times they fail, and many times in

531
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: this particular case, you've got just innocent Bostanders that were

532
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: there trying to help these people, and now these children

533
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: can be scarred for life. It's one child that's in

534
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: this word. It's horrible. They're covered with blood and just

535
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: from this good samaritan just stopping to try to help

536
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: this for warm Let me ask you, Ron rail L,

537
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: a lawyer, high profile lawyer specializing in restraining orders. I

538
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: believe that women have too much confidence in restraining orders.

539
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: And I say that because I've handled so many cases

540
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: where women were chased and shot and tortured and beaten

541
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: that had restraining orders. In addition to prosecuting for ten years,

542
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: I've worked as a volunteer in an Atlanta Better Women's

543
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: Center for nine years at night, and I heard it

544
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: over and over and over, and one of our our

545
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: specialties was helping women get restraining orders. And they think

546
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: they're safe, but ron real, I mean, in my experience,

547
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: they're not safe. Well, if somebody has your number and

548
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 1: they're determined to get you, we know what can happen.

549
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: All I am saying is you want to do anything,

550
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: you every every uh, every bit of ammunition that you

551
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: have to try to stop this person from coming after you.

552
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: And so if there's probably not a statistic about how

553
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: many uh, violent crimes are averted because somebody had a

554
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: restraining order, and the earlier you get him into the system,

555
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: the better. And that's why I'm a big proponent before

556
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: you even get to the district attorney, go in yourself

557
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: to family court and get a restraining order. Somebody sends

558
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: you text messages five days in a row, you're onto something.

559
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: Thed A may or may not prosecute, they may not

560
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: file the case. Go file one yourself and and get

561
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: a restraining order. And when you have them in the

562
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: system earlier on, I think that you're stacking yards in

563
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: your favor. Yeah. Of course, if the person who wants you,

564
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: they're gonna get you, right if they really early are determined.

565
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: Of course it's a problem, but how many how many

566
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: of these crimes were reverted because of this and the

567
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: people in the system getting a restraining order. Then somebody

568
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: violates restraining order before the das even involved. Taking the

569
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: court yourself, get a contempt order, try to get the judge,

570
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: the family judge, to throw him in jail. There's things

571
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: that you can do, uh that you want to try

572
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: to use all available options to protect yourself, and so

573
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: why not. I don't think there's a reason not too well,

574
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: you know another thing, Ron real, I'm painting a pretty

575
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: bleak picture, but the reality is Wendy Patrick, California Prosecutor.

576
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: I'm looking at it from a different perspective because every

577
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: woman I came in touch with was either dead, or

578
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: she was an aggravated assault shooting, bating victim, or she

579
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: was in a batter women's shelter. She's already been beaten

580
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: to smitherings. So my world experiences the very worst had

581
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: already happened. And as I'm listening to Ron rail talk,

582
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: that's probably just a percentage of all the thousands of

583
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: women that get restraining orders every day. And I'm just

584
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: saying this minuscule percentage that suffered the worst. So I

585
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: guess what I'm trying to say, Wendy Patrick is Ron

586
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: Real may have a very good point. P Share does.

587
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: And you know, both Ron and Sewan have talked about this, Nancy,

588
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: as have you. There there's an additional components here. There

589
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: are many women and men who are afraid to run

590
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: out and get restraining orders. They should, Gosh, they all should,

591
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: but they don't want to bring drama to the workplace.

592
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: They're not really sure if that's stalking because they haven't

593
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: they don't know what the textable law says. They're not

594
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: really sure whether to take it seriously or whether getting

595
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: restraining order will make the stalker more dangerous and angrier. Ron,

596
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: I'm sure you can relate to this. We've all seen

597
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: cases where, sadly that happens, not all of them. But

598
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: that's a real fear that many victims have, is they're

599
00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: afraid that simply the act of going and getting a

600
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: training order is going to make it that much worse.

601
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: They mistakenly believe, Nancy, that they can take care of

602
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: it on their own, which is the huge mistake a

603
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: lot of these people make. One of the issues you

604
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: brought up earlier, though, is one of the other ways

605
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 1: which women and men can protect themselves. You mentioned that

606
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: sometimes I like to say this is called hiding in

607
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: plain sight. You keep saying the same person at the

608
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 1: grocery store or the gas station, somebody that maybe is

609
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: an acquaintance of yours. Maybe you never went out with

610
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,919
Speaker 1: him one so according to show, and they never become

611
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: an X, but they're just around a little too close

612
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 1: for comfort. That in and of itself should be a

613
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: red flag, something on the radar, something to keep an

614
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: eye on. May not justify a restraining order, is wrong,

615
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: would tell you, but it's still something that we need

616
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: to protect ourselves from because that's the way it starts,

617
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: this unhealthy obsession that is often very visible to some

618
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: of these victims when they keep seeing the same person

619
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: turn it up again and against me run rail high

620
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: profile l a lawyer specializing in restraining orders, California prosecutor

621
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, renowned New York psychologist here and Stark forensics

622
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 1: expert professor at Jacksonville State Joseph Scott Morgan, and Daily

623
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: mail dot COM's Sean Walsh returning to tow other stories

624
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: and they are about an eighteen year old girl at

625
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: a Point Ciana, Florida, Larissa Barrows l A R I

626
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: S s A Barrows B brother a R O S killed,

627
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: gunned down. Gosh. I just hate to even say. It

628
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: was near the top of her class and already accepted

629
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: to f s U. And the case of Genera Nicole Gonzalez.

630
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: Genera Nicole Gonzalez shot dead at north Lake College in Dallas, Texas,

631
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: simply sitting there studying in a community studying area. The

632
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: those two cases, the victims dead because of stalkers. I

633
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 1: want to thank our partners that are making our program

634
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: today possible. It's link A k C. And on a

635
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Speaker 1: happy note, this is an incredible, incredible thing. Don't leave

636
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: your pet out of all the upcoming holiday fun. Link

637
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Speaker 1: a k C smart collar is backed by the American

638
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Speaker 1: Kennel Club. The link A k C Caller is a

639
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Speaker 1: GPS locator, a fitness activity tracker for a dog and

640
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: us all control through a smartphone at It even has

641
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: an LED light and temperature sensor. Now this is what

642
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 1: I love. I got pound pitts and one of them

643
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 1: is a dog Nitro street name fat Boy. This GPS

644
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: locator can accurately tell me where fat Boy is at

645
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: all time, total piece of mind. He's not running down

646
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: the street right now, he's not jumping over the fence.

647
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 1: He's not chasing or being chased by a car. He's

648
00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: in the yard where he's supposed to be running in

649
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: so Coles, chasing his tail, being a dog. And you

650
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: know what, I can find that out right on the app.

651
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter how old your dog is, whether it's

652
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: a pure breed, a mixed or a little mutt like mine.

653
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: Link A k C's Activity Wellness Tracker shows the exact

654
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: amount of activity your dog needs. Specifically, is so easy

655
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: to set up? Which what is? I like that part.

656
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: There's a size for every dog and it's super comfy.

657
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: Keep your pet safe, happy and healthy with link a

658
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: k C Smart Collar. It's the perfect gift for you

659
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: and you're a dog. You can try at risk free

660
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 1: for ninety days and now save thirty percent. You're not

661
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,399
Speaker 1: gonna get that at the pet store off and free

662
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 1: shipping on your order if you use code Nancy at

663
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: link a KC dot com. Code and Nancy at link

664
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: a k C dot com save thirty off with free shipping. Hello,

665
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna get another one link a k

666
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: C dot com code. Nancy, I want to switch gears

667
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: and go to the two stories I mentioned first. Out

668
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: to Sean Walsh with daily mail dot com regarding the

669
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: facts on Genera Nicole Gonzalez. Jania Nicole Gonzalez just twenty

670
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: years old when she is shot three times, dies immediately

671
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: in a common study area at North Lake College in Dallas, Texas.

672
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: And here is the kicker. She didn't even know she

673
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 1: had a stalker. Sean Walsh with me daily mail dot com.

674
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: What happened with Jania Nicole Gonzalez. This case is truly

675
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: tragic because this is a girl that was killed by

676
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 1: someone she was not in a relationship with and did

677
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: not want a relationship with um. So her family claims

678
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,439
Speaker 1: that the guy that killed her was obsessed with her,

679
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: even though the two were never in a relationship. In fact,

680
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: she was dating someone else, so he became completely obsessed

681
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: and he killed her on campus. It's truly chilling. You

682
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 1: know you're right about that, Agan. The torres a twenty

683
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: year old guy. It's her killer. She was sitting there

684
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 1: in the study area studying when he comes in with

685
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: a gun. Shouts out, you know who I am and

686
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: why I'm here? Translation, you have no idea who I

687
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: am or why I'm here. And I don't think she

688
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: even realized what was happening. If you look at her picture,

689
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: she looks like she's about fourteen years old. And I

690
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 1: saw a picture of her father just crying about his

691
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: little girl. She was a kinesiology student set to graduate

692
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: in just a couple of weeks with great grades. She

693
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: had never even dated this guy before. Karen Stark, psychologist

694
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: out of New York, how does that happen well in

695
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: this cage too. He believes that unless she loves him

696
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 1: and unless she responds to him, that he's not worth while.

697
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: And the saddest thing Nancy is that I don't think

698
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: she understood that the swis something that's threatening. I think

699
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: that's what happens all the time with women. Either they

700
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: are flattered by it or they don't take it seriously enough.

701
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 1: And in a public space like that, if you're being stoked,

702
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: you really have to be careful to look around you

703
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: to see if anyone is familiar. You know, that's quite

704
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: the dichotomy, though, to Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert you say,

705
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: try not to be isolated. But here she is in

706
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: a public place and he still gets her in guns.

707
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: Here down in a communal study area at the college. Nancy,

708
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: I'm a university professor, and it's not just the communal

709
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: study area. It is the nature of an academic environment

710
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: where you have this campus community. It's there. And keep

711
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: in mind, no matter what the admissions office does at

712
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: any university, you can't vet where people come from. You

713
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: don't know what their psychological profile is. So you get

714
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: a group of people together and they're just kind of

715
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: mashed in together. You develop this relationship, this community relationship.

716
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,919
Speaker 1: You don't know the background of anybody there. I don't

717
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 1: know what this fellow's background was, but I do know

718
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: he targeted this young girl and ended her life very

719
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 1: tragically in an environment that most of us just as

720
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: soon and just as soon it's going to be very,

721
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: very safe and protected, and certainly when we sent our

722
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: kids off to college, we expect them to be safe

723
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: and protected. This leads me to Shaun Walsh dailymail dot

724
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: com the case of Larissa Barrows, and for some reason,

725
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 1: in this case, I just can't get her off of

726
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: my mind. Larissa had overcome so much. She was an

727
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 1: eighteen year old girl and she was a teen mom,

728
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: but that didn't stop her. She was near the top

729
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,919
Speaker 1: of her class and set to graduate from Liberty High

730
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: School in two weeks. Based on her stellar grades. She

731
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: had already been accepted into f s U Florida State University,

732
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: which is inundated with applications every year. She was already

733
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: accepted two weeks to graduate should the killer, Kai Williams,

734
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 1: had already been in jail for stalking her. He had

735
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: already been ordered to stay away from Larissa Barrows. He

736
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: had slashed her tires, he had broken into her window.

737
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: He that day that had already sent over one thousand texts.

738
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 1: He had gone to her car, broken in the window again,

739
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: and set her seat, the driver's seat of her Chevy Cobalt,

740
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: on fire, which such psychologically is very telling that he

741
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: goes to where she sits in the car and sets

742
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: the car on fire. He was arrested for that, but

743
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: prosecutors dropped the case, claiming they didn't have enough evidence.

744
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? An Orange Osciola jurisdiction? And now

745
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: she's dead, How does that prosecutor look in the mirror?

746
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: Every day and say, well, I didn't take it to

747
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: child because I didn't have enough evidence. What with all

748
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: that track record, who else do you think set her

749
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: car on fire in the driver's seat. I mean, think

750
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: about it. It's called circumstantial evidence. For Pete's sake, and

751
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: even if you don't win, at least go down and glory.

752
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: At least try go down guns a blazing, because this

753
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 1: girl might still be alive. For Pete's sake. Larissa Barros

754
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: is dead and I have listened to part of her

755
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: nine one one call when she's saying he's here. He's

756
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: trying to get in. I'm afraid he's gonna kill me

757
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: and my little boy. He got in, Shawan Walsh, He

758
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: got in, all right, didn't he? Nancy. These are the

759
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: most chilling tapes you will ever hear. She's on the

760
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: phone pleading my ex boyfriend's breaking into the house. I

761
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: have an injunction against him. Please send the police quick

762
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: they can. She can then be hood screaming back up,

763
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: back up, what you want, and then there's a man's

764
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 1: voice in the background, yelling and struggling with her. The

765
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: operator tries to get her back on the phone, but

766
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: she never returns to the line, um he kills her.

767
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: It's absolutely terrible, and authorities have said that she did

768
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 1: everything she possibly could in the two years leading up

769
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 1: to it to stay away from this guy, to let

770
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: the police know that there was an issue, and so

771
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: it astounds me how prosecutors could not find a reason

772
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: to prosecute this guy. There was more than enough evidence,

773
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 1: you know, when you are describing that nine one one call,

774
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 1: that's just what we were hearing that time. She had

775
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: called time one one so many times, so many times.

776
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: What what went wrong? Why wasn't he in jails on

777
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I been Nancy. I have absolutely no idea.

778
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: I'm stumped with this one, because you would think, Nancy,

779
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 1: you're a former prosecutor. You would think that this guy

780
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: would have been behind bars and not have been able

781
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: to have been out to kill this beautiful eighteen year

782
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: old Nancy. She was two weeks from graduating, two weeks

783
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: and when one word the emergency, I need, I need

784
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 1: a police m my sisters. Scar just being to the house,

785
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: and I mean was outside and I pulled and he

786
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: pulled running from of me, and he looked like you

787
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 1: were pulling a gun flag and hit him and we

788
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,879
Speaker 1: I need a police a plea. Oh, I could think,

789
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: I see one moment, please coming for one hall? What

790
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: is the three? What is set hollow? You know, justice

791
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: got Morgan death Investigator. By the time you and I

792
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: get a case like this, the victim is buried, the

793
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: funeral is over, and we're trying to piece together all

794
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: the pieces to seek justice. But when I this happened

795
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 1: to me in court every single time, when I hear

796
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: the nive on one call, it feels like it's happening

797
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: at that moment, and I just want more than anything

798
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: to try to fix it. Joe Scott, moving forward, you

799
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: have to look at this and say, is this young

800
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: girl's life going to have been wasted as a result

801
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: of this or is there a lesson that can be

802
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: learned moving forward? And I think that there is there

803
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: lessons on on the side of both the psychological side

804
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: of the house, to a certain degree of the forensic side,

805
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: but most certainly the prosecutorial side. And then of course

806
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: we come to the general public awareness. I think that

807
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: that you've you've put this out there and this is

808
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,760
Speaker 1: this is key to this because this is real, Nancy.

809
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: This is not something that's it's not a fantasy. We

810
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: you and I both stood over bodies. We've looked at

811
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: at the wreckage. I'm thinking about this poor child, you know,

812
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: and and she was a child, uh that has has

813
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: has died now at the hands of this of this person.

814
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: And and look look at the wreckage that's left behind

815
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 1: by her, her child that that is now left motherless

816
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: and fatherless as a result of this behavior. And we

817
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 1: have to learn from this moving forward. This has been

818
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: a cycle that's going on forever and ever and ever

819
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 1: and ever. It seems like it just never stops. It

820
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:25,240
Speaker 1: never stops. Two. Karen Stark, Karen, tell me your advice.

821
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: The advice is that women need to end men. If

822
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: this happens to be the other way around, and it

823
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 1: sometimes does occur, you have to be vigilant to do

824
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: the best you can. Not to say that responsibility is

825
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 1: on the victim, but if you believe that someone is excessive,

826
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 1: if they seem obsessive, which means that they are constantly calling,

827
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 1: constantly texting, not leaving you alone, sending you gifts that

828
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: you really have not asked for a wanted, then you

829
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: need to know that this is not a healthy thing,

830
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: That something is really wrong. You have to tell everyone

831
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: around you. You have to notify where you work, the

832
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: people where you work not be embarrassed because you're protecting yourself.

833
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: You need to let your relatives know. You need to

834
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: watch who is around you. If you're in a public space.

835
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 1: You must change the root of how you go to

836
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 1: work and not be consistent in any of your behaviors

837
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: so that this person can't follow you. You must be very,

838
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,320
Speaker 1: very cautious. And the important thing is that you're talking

839
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: about it now, Nancy, so people can be aware. It

840
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: is not a good thing. It is not that someone

841
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: is loving you and caring too much. It's dangerous. I

842
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: agree with Karen Stark and with Ron Rail, with just

843
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, Shawn Wals and Wendy Patrick. It is not romantic.

844
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: It is not okay. It is a crime. Number one,

845
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: do not ignore a stalker. That's a common reaction. If

846
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: you don't think about it, it'll go away. That doesn't work.

847
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: In fact, it gets worse. To be alert. Three avoid contact.

848
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: You must four enhanced security locks, alarms, cameras, change your

849
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 1: route to work or school. Five. Inform people in your

850
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 1: life about the threat, have them on alert. Six Save

851
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: document all messages, voicemails, letters, cards, gifts. Seven photo document

852
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: all items damaged, if your car is keyed, if your

853
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,919
Speaker 1: ties are slashed, if your door is kicked in. Eight

854
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 1: Trust your instincts. Nine develop a safety plan. Listen to me,

855
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 1: Listen to all of us. We know Nancy Grace crime stories.

856
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: Signing off, goodbye friend,