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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: The former US Vice President Mike Pence taking a critical

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Speaker 2: stance on President Trump's tariffs, writing in a Wall Street

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Speaker 2: Journal op ed in the past few months that since

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Speaker 2: the President announced his Liberation Day tariffs, the only thing

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Speaker 2: America has been limerated from is trillions of dollars in investments,

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Speaker 2: and pleased to say, the forty eighth Vice President of

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Speaker 2: the United States, Mike Pence, joined us Now for more.

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Speaker 2: It's the Vice president of Mornick.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, Thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being here. I want to pick up

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Speaker 2: on a question I know you've been exploring. What can

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Speaker 2: forty seven learn from forty five. Let's start there and

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Speaker 2: talk about trade.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 4: Well, first off, I want to give President Trump all

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Speaker 4: the credit in the world for a historic political comeback.

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Speaker 4: But in that Republican primary I was traveling as a

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Speaker 4: candidate in twenty twenty three, I mostly heard people saying,

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Speaker 4: we want to get back in the midst of the

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Speaker 4: failed economic policies of the Biden administration. We want to

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Speaker 4: get back to what the Trump pens administration was advancing.

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Speaker 4: And so in the Wall Street Journal, I gave the

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Speaker 4: president great credit high marks for securing the border, for

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Speaker 4: restoring morale and recruitment in our military, for taking the

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Speaker 4: fight to the Hoho Thies. Since then, we'll talk more later.

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Speaker 4: I'm very encouraged about the strong stand that the President

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Speaker 4: is taking on the world stage, particularly in the Middle.

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Speaker 3: East and in Eastern Europe.

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Speaker 4: But what I wanted to call attention to was the

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Speaker 4: policy toward tariffs was changed with Liberation Day. During our administration,

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Speaker 4: we used tariffs in the threat of tariffs principally focused

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Speaker 4: on China to leverage changes in behavior, but the objective

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Speaker 4: was to essentially lower trade barriers and expand trade. In

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Speaker 4: this administration, I think what we saw several months ago,

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Speaker 4: now it's paused again happily, is the kind of broad

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Speaker 4: based industrial policy that I think ultimately will harm the

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Speaker 4: American economy, will harm American consumers, and so we've spoken

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Speaker 4: out against it. We've tried to take a stand what

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Speaker 4: I like to say, free trade with free nations.

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Speaker 3: Be tough on China, be tough on.

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Speaker 4: Trade abusers, but have the objective of ultimately lowering trade barriers,

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Speaker 4: and that's how America wins and prospers. That's how we

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Speaker 4: wonder in our first term.

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Speaker 2: You've identified that change. What's your understanding of what's behind it,

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Speaker 2: what's let that change?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that what's changed is that I think

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Speaker 4: the President feels at least I perceive it. You know,

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Speaker 4: sometimes I tell people that I know President Trump better

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Speaker 4: than his most ardent defenders. We served together for four

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Speaker 4: and a half years. We had a close working relationship,

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Speaker 4: and I've said many times President Trump is not an isolationist.

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Speaker 4: He is someone deeply committed to free market capitalism. But

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Speaker 4: for all of his career he has been very sympathetic

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Speaker 4: to protectionist thinking in philosophy. You can go back thirty

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Speaker 4: years on YouTube and find Donald Trump saying the same

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Speaker 4: things that President Trump is saying today. He and I

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Speaker 4: had many vigorous conversations during our four years about trade.

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Speaker 4: I come from one of the leading exporting states in

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Speaker 4: the country.

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Speaker 3: What we make, we grow in Indiana, we sell to

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Speaker 3: the world.

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Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, I think what

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Speaker 4: you're seeing is not different influences around President Trump. I

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Speaker 4: think you're simply seeing him extending out into a philosophy

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Speaker 4: of government and economics that he has long believed.

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Speaker 1: Were these impulses. Then there when he during the first administration,

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Speaker 1: and individuals like you maybe talked him out of it.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't know that it was.

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Speaker 4: There were a few times that I saw him change

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Speaker 4: his mind on things, but I think it was more

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Speaker 4: about priorities in the first term, to make sure that

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Speaker 4: we passed the tax cuts, rolled back regulation, unleashed American energy,

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Speaker 4: and we changed the national consensus on China. China with

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Speaker 4: its years of trade abuses, and I played a leading

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Speaker 4: role in articulating that in the early going, and I'm

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Speaker 4: incredibly proud of that record and glad that at least

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Speaker 4: the Biden administration didn't change the tariff policy toward China.

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Speaker 3: But for me, it was more about.

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Speaker 4: It was more about driving toward free trade agreement. So

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Speaker 4: I had the privilege of announcing the beginning of a

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Speaker 4: free trade agreement with UK in the City of London.

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Speaker 4: We renegotiated a free trade agreement with South Korea that's

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Speaker 4: back in the news this week with new tariff threats,

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Speaker 4: and I was leading with my counterpart in Japan. I

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Speaker 4: was actually tasked with leading a working group for a

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Speaker 4: free trade agreement with Japan. So for US, it was

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Speaker 4: that we saw an expansion of trade and opening markets.

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Speaker 3: As a key part of American growth right now.

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Speaker 4: I actually believe that President Trump is driving toward a

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Speaker 4: long term change in industrial policy in America where he

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Speaker 4: sees permanent unilateral trade tariff barriers as beneficial to America

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Speaker 4: in the long term, and I, as a free market conservative,

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Speaker 4: as something I just don't embrace.

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Speaker 1: Can you do that and isolate China with the rest

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Speaker 1: of the world on board at the same time, Well, a.

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Speaker 4: Marie, I think that's the right question that Senator Phil Graham.

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Speaker 4: We had on Capitol Hill with our foundation yesterday, had

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Speaker 4: over one hundred staffers that came out to hear him.

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Speaker 4: He had probably the best description of it, he said.

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Speaker 4: He said, by going after all of your the free

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Speaker 4: nations that you're trading with at the same time that

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Speaker 4: you're trying to bring China farther along into opening markets

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Speaker 4: and ending years of trade abuses, he said, it's like

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Speaker 4: it's like dismissing your front line in a football game

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Speaker 4: and expecting that you're going to take on the other side. Look,

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Speaker 4: we need Japan, we need South Korea, we need Australia,

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Speaker 4: we need the EU to continue to bring the kind

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Speaker 4: of economic pressure on China that I believe is all

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Speaker 4: that President g and the Chinese Communist Party will will respect.

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Speaker 3: We saw some change.

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Speaker 4: Remember that Phase one trade deal in the early days

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Speaker 4: of twenty twenty. Most people have long since forgotten it.

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Speaker 4: There were bigger stories that year by far, but we

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Speaker 4: saw the China when we imposed those two hundred and

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Speaker 4: fifty billion dollars in tariffs. The Chinese to the table

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Speaker 4: quickly and began negotiations. And I still believe that's the

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Speaker 4: right approach, with free trade, with free nations being the backstop.

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Speaker 5: Mister Vice President, I want to pick out a line

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Speaker 5: in that Wall Street Journal up ed that John was

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Speaker 5: mentioning that you wrote, mister Trump's proposed tariffs would be

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Speaker 5: the largest peacetime hike in American history, harming consumers and

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Speaker 5: driving inflation. President Trump his administration has been talking about

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Speaker 5: they're not going to be inflationary, that the producers and

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Speaker 5: other countries are going to absorb it. Are you seeing

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Speaker 5: evidence that that's not the case. Are you really concerned

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Speaker 5: about what this does to the economy.

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Speaker 4: Well, I really am, and I understand that that's the

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Speaker 4: debate right now. We haven't seen the inflation from Liberation

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Speaker 4: Day and I think there's several reasons to explain that.

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Speaker 3: Number one is.

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Speaker 4: The terriff regime was paused and has now been paused again,

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Speaker 4: and the markets and are responding to that, businesses are responding. Secondly,

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Speaker 4: I got to tell you the businesses I talk to

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Speaker 4: as I travel around the country have been spending an

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Speaker 4: awful lot of money on inventory right now. You know,

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Speaker 4: there's an old saying that where I come from, the

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Speaker 4: you know, I was born in the morning, but not

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Speaker 4: yesterday morning. So people say that these tariffs are coming,

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Speaker 4: so why don't we Why don't we fill the warehouse

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Speaker 4: right now? And I think that's wise, But you know,

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Speaker 4: at the end of the day, I also think that

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Speaker 4: you know, the President on Liberation Day talked about twenty

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Speaker 4: five percent, fifty percent, seventy percent tariffs on countries, and

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Speaker 4: seeing some of these early frameworks that end up with

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Speaker 4: the UK with ten percent, there's a temptation to say, well,

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Speaker 4: that's just ten percent, And so I think that's the

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Speaker 4: reason why markets, so my businesses have not adjusted prices yet.

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Speaker 4: But if we have a unilateral tariff of ten percent

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Speaker 4: on the American economy of all important goods, that's four.

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Speaker 3: Times the average tariff to day.

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Speaker 4: And the reality is that I watch, you know, I

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Speaker 4: spent a lot of time in that cabinet room. I

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Speaker 4: watched a little bit of the cabinet meeting this week,

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Speaker 4: and I saw Secretary Besson speaking very glowingly about the

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Speaker 4: projection is three hundred billion dollars in tariff revenue this year. Well,

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Speaker 4: tariffs are a tax, and American importers and businesses and

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Speaker 4: ultimately consumers.

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Speaker 3: Pay almost all of that.

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Speaker 4: And so literally a week after we managed to extend

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Speaker 4: the Trumpets tax cuts and prevent a two thousand dollars

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Speaker 4: tax increase on working families, the administration is right now

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Speaker 4: boasting of the fact that the average American household is

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Speaker 4: going to see about three thousand dollars increase in the

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Speaker 4: cost of goods because we're paying that. So that's why

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Speaker 4: I referred to a liberation day. I said, could well

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Speaker 4: be the largest peacetime tax in American history.

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Speaker 3: We've been pushing back on that.

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Speaker 4: I welcome the pauses, but I I really do believe

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Speaker 4: the antidote here is free trade with free nations. Tough

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Speaker 4: on China, but continue continue to drive toward lowering trade barriers,

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Speaker 4: and and you know, non tariff subsidient.

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Speaker 2: He reflects the inflation risk. The White House of say

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Speaker 2: like this federer'sf to cut interest rates. You've been in

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Speaker 2: the room a few times. I'm sure it's talking about

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Speaker 2: this veederic f. How did the President end up with

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Speaker 2: a FED chat the heat dislikes so much? How did

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Speaker 2: that happen?

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Speaker 4: Well, well, I've been watching a lot of what the

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Speaker 4: presidents had to say about J.

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Speaker 3: Powell lately, and.

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Speaker 4: He did appoint him, So it's part of the awkward

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Speaker 4: aspect here. Well, first, I think the President of the

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Speaker 4: United States is fully entitled to express his opinion about

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Speaker 4: both the FED share and about the Federal Reserve itself.

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Speaker 3: I have long had great.

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Speaker 4: Concerns about the dual mandate and the Federal Reserve. I

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Speaker 4: think it confuses the issue. The Federal Reserve has this

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Speaker 4: for your viewers, has a dual mandate to protect the

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Speaker 4: integrity of the dollar and achieve full employment. Look, I

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Speaker 4: think the Federal Reserve ought to just focus on the dollar.

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Speaker 4: And I think that the hesitation that I have seen

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Speaker 4: from the FED chair and ostensibly the Committee is that

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Speaker 4: the uncertainty around these broad based tariffs and the potential

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Speaker 4: for inflation has slowed their intention and their earlier efforts

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Speaker 4: at lowering rates, and so how the president got to

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Speaker 4: where he can He considers the Federal Reserve chairman to

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Speaker 4: be worthy of the nickname too late. I can't really testify,

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Speaker 4: but to me, you know, pushing back on the idea

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Speaker 4: that what seems to be holding up the Federal Reserve.

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Speaker 4: Although I read this morning there's now more vigorous debate.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you've covered here on Bloomberg.

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Speaker 4: Ye on the committee as that there we may have

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Speaker 4: lowering of interest rates, which certainly would welcome.

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Speaker 2: As you know, the president, one of his greatest strength

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Speaker 2: is to break the status quoud and have very little

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Speaker 2: respect for it. That limits to that, and it's fed

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Speaker 2: independence and example of it.

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Speaker 4: That's right, And I think, look, the President appoints the

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Speaker 4: chairman of the Federal Reserve, and a careful study of

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Speaker 4: American history shows I don't really accept that the Federal

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Speaker 4: Reserve should be a completely separate agency, you know, like

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Speaker 4: a college of cardinals that we never refer to other

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Speaker 4: than in.

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Speaker 3: Respectful hush tones.

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Speaker 4: John, I think the president ought to be able to

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Speaker 4: express himself. Elected officials ought to be able to express themselves,

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Speaker 4: because it's almost like that old saying about the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 4: You know that justices do read the newspaper, and I

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Speaker 4: expect that's also true of members of the Federal Reserve.

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Speaker 2: You have taken a balance view on the current administration.

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Speaker 2: You've been somewhat critically of trains. We've discussed that, I

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Speaker 2: would say, ringing endulsement about that approach to the Middle East.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about that. Where you were in your

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Speaker 2: first term with the president, where he is in his

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Speaker 2: second term, and what went wrong in between. From your

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Speaker 2: standpoint on the Middle East, Well, I.

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Speaker 4: Just think when Joe Biden returned to a policy of

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Speaker 4: appeasement toward Iran, it really emboldened the enemies of Israel

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Speaker 4: across the region.

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Speaker 3: I traveled to Israel.

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Speaker 4: About six months after October seventh and saw what occurred there,

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Speaker 4: and I would tell you it's one of the things

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Speaker 4: I'm probably most proud of our administration. Not only did

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Speaker 4: we changed in the national consensus on China, but we

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Speaker 4: were probably the most pro Israel administration since the re

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Speaker 4: establishment of the State of Israel in nineteen forty eight.

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Speaker 4: There's just simply to recognize it.

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Speaker 3: Moving the American.

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Speaker 4: Embassy to Jerusalem recognizing the Golanites.

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Speaker 3: These were all.

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Speaker 4: Historic achievements that everyone told us would foment violence and

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Speaker 4: discord across the Middle East. But again another twenty twenty

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Speaker 4: story that is long forgotten by many people. As the Abraham,

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Speaker 4: of course, I mean we actually demonstrated that when you

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Speaker 4: stand without in an unwavering way with Israel that I

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Speaker 4: call our most cherished ally throughout our history, it sends

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Speaker 4: a very clear signal that makes peace more possible, not

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Speaker 4: less possible. We also isolated Iran as never before. We

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Speaker 4: unleashed our military to take down the ISIS Caliphate, and

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Speaker 4: of course the President made the decision to take down

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Speaker 4: Acostam Salomoni.

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Speaker 3: The head of the Iran Revolutionary Guard.

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Speaker 4: All of that had had Iran on its back heels.

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Speaker 4: The Biden administration changed that went back to the Obama

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Speaker 4: approach of re engaging with the Mullahs in Tehran. I

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Speaker 4: think they were emboldened the violence that we saw, whether

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Speaker 4: it be October seventh with Hamas one of their patron

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Speaker 4: groups or the Houthis, all were resolved. I've always believed

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Speaker 4: that that weakness arouses evil, but peace comes through strength

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Speaker 4: and in the weakness of the Biden administration, I think

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Speaker 4: created conditions for the mayhem that the new Trump administration inherited.

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Speaker 3: And that's why I've.

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Speaker 4: I've been so encouraged to see the strong stand the

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Speaker 4: President has taken with Israel. We publicly encouraged the use

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Speaker 4: of American military assets.

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Speaker 3: If Iran was not willing to dismantle their.

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Speaker 4: Nuclear program, I believe it needed to be destroyed. And

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Speaker 4: I commend the President for his decisive leadership in our

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Speaker 4: incredible airman who delivered those payloads.

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Speaker 1: You welcomed those strikes on the Iranian nuclear facilities, But

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Speaker 1: the President still talks about a deal with Iran. Do

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Speaker 1: you think he'll do a deal at any cost?

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Speaker 3: Well, I hope not.

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Speaker 4: I said in that Wall Street Journal piece that you cited.

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Speaker 4: It was about two months ago, and one of my concerns,

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Speaker 4: in addition to some of the tariff issues that we

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Speaker 4: talked about, was that a lot of what we were

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Speaker 4: hearing from the administration in the first hundred days sounded

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Speaker 4: an awful lot like a new Iran nuclear deal, and

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Speaker 4: we pushed back on that pretty hard.

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Speaker 3: And I.

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Speaker 4: My hope is that the President, having having seen both

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Speaker 4: the run up to the need for American action and

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Speaker 4: also the response by the Mullas and Tehran. We'll he'll

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Speaker 4: keep his on the holster and look ultimately for achieving

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Speaker 4: the objective that has been the stated US policy through

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Speaker 4: multiple administrations, that Ran can never be allowed to obtain

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Speaker 4: a nuclear weapon or have a nuclear program of any kind.

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Speaker 1: When it comes to foreign policy, you've been very critical

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Speaker 1: and hawkish on Russia in the debate when you were

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Speaker 1: running with President Trump in the first term, you called

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Speaker 1: Putin a small and bullying dictator. Why do you think

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Speaker 1: Trump has only just started changing his tune when it

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Speaker 1: comes to Vladimir Putin.

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Speaker 4: Well, I've never had any illusions about Vladimir Putin.

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Speaker 1: No, but President Trump has.

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Speaker 3: Well, that remains to be seen.

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Speaker 4: I would tell you that, you know, I was on

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Speaker 4: the Foreign Affairs Committee when I was in the Congress.

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Speaker 4: I've been a student of Vladimir Putin. He's never made

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Speaker 4: a secret of his ambitions in Eastern Europe. It's something

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Speaker 4: he's spoken about, written about. His aim has always been

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Speaker 4: to re established the old Soviet sphere of influence in

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Speaker 4: Eastern Europe. And I really do believe it was our

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Speaker 4: administration in the Trump Pence years that were the first

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Speaker 4: to literally provide lethal aid to Ukraine. I think that's

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Speaker 4: what discouraged Putin from crossing.

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Speaker 3: That border during those four years.

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Speaker 4: Forget, and I think it continues to be the only

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Speaker 4: pathway toward peace today.

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Speaker 5: But forgive me, mister Vice President, to go back to

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Speaker 5: Emory's question, what's changed, because right now we've seen a

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Speaker 5: president who's warned against Russia doing crossing certain real lines,

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Speaker 5: Russia's crossed, and then the sanctions haven't come. What do

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Speaker 5: you think is going on?

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm hopeful that they will.

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Speaker 4: What makes you I am I've seen some statements by

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Speaker 4: my friend Senator Lindsey Graham, who just in the last

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Speaker 4: few days said that the President told him to move

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Speaker 4: the bill. And these new Russia sanctions, which are secondary

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Speaker 4: sanctions against people that are doing business with Russia that

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Speaker 4: are subsidizing the war effort by oil purchases and energy purchases,

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Speaker 4: I think could be enormously impactful. But uh, you know,

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Speaker 4: I would I would say that, you know, I've made

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Speaker 4: it very clear that that that my deep conviction is

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Speaker 4: that Vladimir Putin doesn't want peace. Vladimir Putin wants Ukraine

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Speaker 4: and despite the stops and starts that gave them any

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Speaker 4: of us concern, including that famous Oval Office meeting between

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Speaker 4: the President and President Zelenski, who I came to know well.

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Speaker 3: I sense that my old running mate.

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Speaker 4: Is coming around to recognizing Putin's real intentions here.

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Speaker 3: I mean when I think that.

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Speaker 4: The the clear irritation in the President's voice of having

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Speaker 4: a conversation and then to see some of the some

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Speaker 4: of the worst drone attacks launched in Kiev within a

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Speaker 4: matter of hours, is I think having its effect. But look,

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Speaker 4: I just think that I was pleased that the President

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Speaker 4: countermanded what had been a pause of aid to Ukraine

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Speaker 4: last week, which I think was unfortunate wherever it originated.

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Speaker 4: But I commend the President for reversing that decision. And

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Speaker 4: my hope is when the Senate reconvenes that that Senator

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Speaker 4: Thunal will put the the Graham bill on the floor and.

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Speaker 3: Put it on the President's desk.

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Speaker 4: I think it's time and and it's my judgment. I've

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Speaker 4: met Vladimir Putin, I've stood with him closer than I'm

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Speaker 4: sitting next to you. I've told him things he didn't

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Speaker 4: want to hear, and I think he is. I think

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Speaker 4: he is not a man who understands anything other than strength.

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Speaker 4: And this is a moment, I think where it's in

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Speaker 4: the interest of our country, it's in the interest of

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Speaker 4: our allies in the region and long term peace in

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Speaker 4: Eastern Europe for US to continue to provide military support

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Speaker 4: to Ukraine, to put punishing sanctions on Russia until the

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Speaker 4: just lasting peace can be secured.

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Speaker 2: Mister Vice President, I appreciate your time, set enjoyed the

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Speaker 2: Commas action great. It's going to say it, thank you.

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Speaker 2: They form the Vice President of the United States that

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Speaker 2: Mike Pence