WEBVTT - Indigenous Leadership on International Environmental Issues 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:08.399 Okay, Hello everyone. It's me James today and I'm joined 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.440 by three guests or members of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.200 trans Boundary Commission. What we're talking about today is accepting 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:19.560 indigenous leadership on issues of climate change and issues of 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:25.840 more broadly ecological damage. And specifically we're discussing an emergency 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.840 declaration that they recently released about the state of the 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.479 Pacific salmon population. If I'm not mistaken, so I'm going 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:34.240 to ask each of them to introduce themselves. If you 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.120 could give us your name and any relevant affiliations that 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:38.919 you think listeners should know, that would be wonderful. 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:39.960 Hello. 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:45.320 My name is Kirby Mouldeau. My ancestral name is hopwell Asa. 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:51.920 I am from the Simsan people in what is now 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:57.880 known as Northwest British Columbia, Canada. My mother is jim San, 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:04.080 my father is Gigsan, and I am from wilp we Get, 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.360 which is the house of the Night Drummer from the 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:08.360 Fireweed Plan. 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:10.440 I am also. 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:16.840 An independent consultant and contractor and I look forward to 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:17.839 our discussion today. 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:19.360 Thank you, Thank you. 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:25.320 Hi. I'm Louis Wagner Junior from Metlakatla, Alaska, and I'm 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:31.040 Taquiddy of the brown Bear Plan from Cape Fox. Sanyu 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:36.800 Kuan and I have lived in Metla Catla my whole 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:43.160 life of seventy five years. And we're connected to the 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:50.160 Eunuch River through my grandmother and she was born at 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:55.480 Cape Fox. And we've been on the Eunuch River ever 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:58.120 since I was big enough to go with my older 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:03.720 brother and so I've been up there since like nineteen 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:10.280 sixty wow, and my brothers was up to close to 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:14.560 twenty years before that. So but our family has always 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:19.040 been on the Eunich River to harvest. Had the fish 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:23.079 camp up there and we'd fish the uligans, bring the 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:29.760 uligans home to the people, and the catch can sacksmon 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.240 metal catline. Then people would send them out to the 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:37.280 West coast. So we're very connected. We go up to 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:42.280 the Eunich in the spring for uligan and the fall 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.600 for hunting. Now they used to do the salmon up 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:49.320 on the river with the fish camp. I served on 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:54.239 our community council from two thousand and two about I 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:58.840 think twenty fifteen in there, and now i'm their tribal 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:03.440 right rights representative for the community and I report back 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:07.600 to our council after each of our meetings. 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.440 Thank you very much. And Guy, would you like to 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:11.200 introduce yourself. 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.720 Yes, my name is Guy Archibald. I'm the executive director 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:21.079 of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous trans Boundary Commission. We were 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.880 formed about nine years ago by a commission of fifteen 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:32.400 sovereign tribes in Southeast Alaska reacting to a huge amount 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:37.760 of mind development and further potential mind development going on 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:41.560 in the trans boundary watersheds that drain from British Columbia 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:46.120 to Alaska. I used to work at the mines. I'm 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:51.200 an environmental chemist by trade. I helped tribes monitor their 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:59.040 own environments and their food security through science. And yeah, 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.160 I've looking forward to this discussion as well. 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:05.760 Yeah, that's a fantastic setup for all of you. Thank 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.640 you very much. So I think we should begin because 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:14.240 maybe people may have missed the extent and the severity 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:18.719 of the emergency with salmon populations, and so perhaps we 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.920 could start out by explaining how it was. It seems 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:26.080 like Louis you have a lot of experience there, and 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:29.200 then what has caused things to be at a situation 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.800 they're at now. Would that be a good way to 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:32.360 go about it. 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.720 Yes, that would be a good way. Where we are 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:41.280 at now on the salmon is that bruce Jack mine 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.119 started on the river and none of us knew about 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:49.320 it until way late summers around the mid nineties, nineteen nineties, 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:58.440 and by by two thousand, especially I'm in the spring 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:04.160 when we've up there, that ooligans were starting to disappear, 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.560 and then then the fall of moose hunting, the salmon 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:13.080 were disappearing, and there's a lot less bears and moose 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.760 now where the river along the river bank would be 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:20.600 full of the parts of the fish that bears didn't eat. 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:24.480 There'd be so many bears and fish, and now you 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.480 don't smell any of that. But and it's really affected 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:35.080 the king salmon. They completely disappeared for at least six 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:39.479 years that my son and I noticed they spawn up 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:44.719 on the river there, and as we always pay attention, 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.200 we check on the main spawning stream of Kingsbury where 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:52.880 they spawn. And the last three years we've been starting 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.800 to see some come back, and that bruce Jack mine, 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:01.160 which found out later they were put their tailings into 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.360 a lake up on the mountain there and then you know, 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:06.320 as they filled it up and the rain filled it up. 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.560 The overflow came down into the river, and the river 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:12.960 is so shallow, it's only a few inches deep, and 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.800 it's it's not very wide. It's the smallest river out 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:24.360 of the stacking and the taku there, and so any 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:28.359 pollution in that river will completely kill it off. The 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:32.479 salmon runs their way down from what we've seen through 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.920 the years. But you know, it's also the wildlife that's 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:39.840 disappearing with it, because there's the feet, isn't there. They's 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:43.240 not the amount of seagulls, a lot less seals and 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:48.240 sea lions. It's effecting on the food chain everything. 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.040 Yeah, and I spent a little bit of time in 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:57.000 your part of the world just pack rafting and hiking 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:01.799 and things, and certainly it's a it's a very beautiful place, 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.159 but it's very like a fragile one too. As you've 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:06.880 explained that these minds can very quickly have this effect 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:11.680 that cascades at the ecosystem. Could you explain a little 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:14.680 bit of the role that salmon play not just in 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.000 the in the provision of food for the for the 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:20.720 animal life of the area, but also like the role 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:24.560 they play traditionally in provisioning and feeding indigenous people. 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:31.760 Well, yeah, we you know, we put up as much 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.880 sockey as we can and then then king salmon and 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:37.080 then a lot of it we'll fish and get there 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:39.720 in the winter to eat, you know, and just get 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.720 them fresh because they don't keep as well in the freezer. 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.680 But as indigenous, you could, you know, look in our 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.600 pantry and see we've lived the same life as I 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:55.360 grew up with my parents and grandparents. Nothing has changed 0:07:55.360 --> 0:08:00.120 for us. We've taught our children the same way to 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:09.400 harvest and take care of the fish. Back in the 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:14.400 fifties when his little kid in Mettle catal Alaska, hardly 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.920 anyone if they even had a refrigerator. They didn't have freezers, 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:23.160 so they had to smoke the fish really hard, and 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:26.840 they put them in those things they're like four gallon 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:31.960 coffee cans too, with newspaper on the bottom and on top. 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:36.640 Then they would keep through the winter, they wouldn't wouldn't 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:40.760 get moldy. So that was their the main staple for 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:42.080 the for the whole year. 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.240 Is it a situation now that like people just can't 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.160 rely on salmon as a staple food because of the 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:51.040 mining tailings, reducing the population. 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:55.880 Yeah, without any hardly any king salmon coming in. There's 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:58.200 you know, a few from the hatchery out there, but 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:04.480 they even in Kitchkan they've closed the king salmon derby 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.080 for I think it's into its fourth year now. So 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:16.960 it's just that that other big mine goes in the 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.240 river will be destroyed and it's going to flow all 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:24.959 the way out into into the ocean here into Clarence 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:28.319 Streets and Dickson Entrance. There has been no avoiding it. 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.680 It's got nowhere else to go with comes straight out 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.360 to the West Beam Canal and then East Beam Canal. 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:35.400 KEB. 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.120 I know you're not quite in exactly the same place, 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:41.960 but can you explain the situation with the salmon population 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:42.640 where you are? 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.600 Yeah, and maybe I'll give a little more context to that. 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:50.120 I live in Northern British Columbia, Northwest British Columbia on 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:55.440 the on the in the Skin of River watershed, and 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:00.800 over the past uh, probably thirty or four years, we've 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:08.600 seen an extreme decline in salmon uh, specifically sakei uh 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:11.640 and king salmon as you guys call it. We call 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:16.000 them spring salmon over here. But we've seen an extreme 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:23.120 decline in returns. And you know, we've we've stopped a 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:28.320 lot of our commercial fisheries and our food fisheries until 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:34.200 which time we feel that the the returns are sufficient 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:37.800 enough so that we can continue to harvest. So we've 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:41.600 got the Taii Test Fishery at the mouth of the Schena, 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:48.200 and they they do a count every year throughout starting 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:53.400 in the spring and throughout most of the summer, they 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:57.600 do a test fishery and they estimate the amount of 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:02.959 salmon that are returning. And we do not fish, as 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:07.200 I said, commercially or for food until we feel that 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.080 the numbers are sufficient that have gone past that fishery. 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:17.320 There are many obstacles that face salmon today, most of 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:25.400 which are a result of human activity logging, mining, commercial fishing, 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:29.040 oil and gas. And we all have to take a 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.400 little bit of responsibility for that because we all enjoy 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:38.040 those resources and we use them. And I've always said 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.880 to people that we can't mine our way out of 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:47.160 this global warming and climate change. We have to learn 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:53.080 how to we have to learn how to use less. 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:59.320 And as I said, you know, mining, obviously it's a 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:03.559 big concern, but there's also logging, there's oil and gas 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:08.959 as well as commercial fishery. You know, there's a lot 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:13.400 of things that happen out in open waters in the 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:18.440 North Pacific that can be changed fairly easily. 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:23.960 You know, they there's a fishery right now. 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:31.440 I believe it's an area one oh four, a fishery 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:33.160 that is targeting. 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:35.080 Pink salmon. 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:42.160 But by our estimations and by estimations from Alaska fisheries, 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:48.040 they are the bycatch for Skina salmon. Skina sakey salmon 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:51.400 that are returning to the Skina is about four hundred 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:55.199 and seventy thousand. Now, these are sakey that are a bycatch. 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.480 We're not asking this fishery to stop. We're asking this 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:03.680 fishery to be more of a terminus fishery, which means 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:08.240 that they better target the pink salmon. So right now 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:13.560 they're fishing in open waters approximately half the fleet. From 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:18.079 what I understand, we're not asking this fishery to stop. 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:23.720 're asking them to move inside so that skin and 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:30.400 sockeye can go past this fishery. And right now we 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:34.839 are just barely making our escapement every year that make 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:39.920 it up into the headwaters where they can spawn. And 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.720 so you know there's a lot of different ways we 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:51.600 can address the issue of salmon declining in numbers. There's 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:53.840 some low hanging fruit, there's a lot of other things 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:58.199 that are going to take a lot of time to enforce. 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:03.520 I'm hoping as transboundary nations, we can come together to 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:08.320 work towards making sure that salmon have a fighting chance. 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:14.200 Salmon are very resilient. They are keystone species, and they're 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:18.080 a good indicator of the health of the environment and 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:20.680 surrounding areas as well as the water. 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:24.080 Yeah, I think that's an excellent summary. Thank you. And 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.240 preps guy, you have a little bit more experience on 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:30.960 the industrial side of thing, I guess can you explain 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:35.360 how it is that on the face fit because Louis 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:39.240 was saying the tribal nations weren't aware that this mine 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:43.360 in one case or these certainly like these other practices, right, 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.200 some of which are sort of very nebulous, like global warming, 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.440 others which are specific like this socce bycatch and the 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:54.000 forestry with the nations in question here, like the people 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.160 who's ancestral and current homelands this is happening on not 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:01.960 consulted or was there insufficient extpert of the consequences when 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.280 these with these minds and forestry operations were opened. 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.560 Certainly especially early on, you know, to this day and 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:13.160 to this day, the right of free entry, which means 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:16.080 somebody could be sitting pretty much anywhere in the world 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.920 get on the internet and claim a mine claim without 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.600 any kind of notification to the landowner or surface owner 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:28.720 by swiping a credit card. So, uh, there's no even 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:33.680 requirement for notification on that. And you know, early on, 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:39.120 the mining companies, you know, they do a investor presentation. 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:42.680 Here's that they're doing in Las Vegas and New York 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:44.720 and this and that, and then they attempt to come 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:50.440 into the communities with that presentation. And what they might 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:57.480 call meaningful engagement is actually one it's completely one sided. 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:01.200 It's not respectful of the process within that tribe or 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:09.040 that community, and it's completely tone deaf. And so what engagement, 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:15.800 what consultation does happen, is incredibly inadequate. To make matters worse, 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:21.080 the South, the Alaskan tribes are landless communities. We don't 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:26.480 have jurisdiction over a land area. And great work is 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.600 being done, though we're not starting from zero here. First 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:35.040 nations out on the land through landguardian programs and more 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:39.640 doing great work Southeast tribes monitoring, you know, their ecosystems 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:43.680 and food security and fish consumption and all that great 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:51.800 science and information. But we do need to incorporate one. 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:56.600 We need to recognize that we can't manage a complex 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.680 organism such as a watershed by dividing it down the 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:04.359 middle under two different jurisdictions. We have to I don't 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.400 say move the border, we basically have to erase it, 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.720 and we need to treat that ecosystem as a whole. 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:20.080 Climate change is having a huge impact. The chinook or 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.840 the king salmon or the spring salmon, they're the largest, 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.280 so they have the largest egg, they have the less 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.520 surface area and the environment to absorb oxygen, so they're 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.880 kind of an indicator of the first you have a problem, 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:35.159 you're kind of red flag going up, you know, in 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:41.640 your network, complex ecosystem and both Caribbean right, we're right, 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:46.199 it's the crash of the entire network that we're seeing. 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.879 Salmon is just an indicator of that. But we're seeing 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:54.720 it across the board and it's unfortunate because here, especially 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:59.520 right now in Southeast Alaska. I live in Juno, Alaska, 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.639 prior to European contact, there was probably five times the 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.520 population living here than there is now. You look at 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:10.600 maps of the old village there everywhere, and they've been 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.199 there for tens of thousands of years. They managed to 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.760 do it sustainably, do it with bounce, do it with 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:22.040 effective You don't really call it in management, but in 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:27.280 engagement with nature. And so here we are kind of 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.399 on the front lines of it. And strangely enough, we 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:35.640 have the solution and people who have within their oral 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:40.639 history the stories of migrating due to climate change, of 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.119 adjusting their life due to climate change. It's in the 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:48.040 history or you know, the current oral history. And so 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:50.879 when we're looking when we say unify here, there's a 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:57.040 great voice and indigenous people too if there is. And 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.880 it's hard to justify with mining, I'm just going to say, 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:05.000 because it's an inherently extractive down to the last profitable 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:10.560 dollar industry. It's not sustainable. It's it's reducible constantly as 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:18.480 it operates, and now it's being used to justify climate change. 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.600 Adjusting to climate change is now being used to justify 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:26.240 more mining, which again, as usual, is going to fall 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:30.720 on the backs of the local people. And communities and 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:31.760 indigenous people. 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:35.960 Yeah, it's shocking. Similar to issues that we see where 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:37.720 I live, which is at the other end of the 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.000 United States and on the southern border, where the Colorado 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.040 River is a binational river, right, which is managed by 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:48.800 two countries kind of in aggressive competition. And we're seeing 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.880 the same thing here, just a different states. Yes, yeah, 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.280 different states, yes, yeah, and all of them have competing 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.200 I was rafting the Colorado River last year, and I've 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.800 paddled the Colorado River. But they change in that river 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:05.399 ecosystem that I've seen, and I've only lived in the 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:09.399 US for fifteen years. It's remarkable and I can't imagine 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:13.720 what it's like over seventy five years. And the same 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:16.520 thing with mining. Actually we're seeing the justification of very 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:20.600 damaging lithium mining rights and then being told that this 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:24.399 is a solution to climate change and whilst also destroying 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:27.800 these ecosystems. If people think it's just an issue that 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:29.760 affects one group of people in one group of the 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.280 part of the world, it's not. It's very universal. And 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:35.160 that's just in the United States. We see the same 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.200 thing places I've traveled for work in East Africa and 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:51.720 in South America. I wonder then if we could talk 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:55.639 about the value of accepting indigenous leadership when it comes 0:20:55.680 --> 0:21:00.399 to addressing I think we began addressing that and guys 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:03.000 come up very well. But perhaps one thing we could 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:07.280 talk about when we talk about that is I think 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:13.119 when people think about specifically British Columbia and Alaska, they 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:16.800 the people will use the term like frontier or wilderness 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:20.400 a lot, right, which erases the fact that, as Guy 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:23.080 mentioned and both of you have shared with us, that 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:27.320 people have been living there for tens of thousands of 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:31.680 years in a way that was sustainable, right, Like, these 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:36.040 weren't places without human beings. It wasn't empty land, and 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:39.119 it was just land that wasn't inhabited by people of 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:43.679 European ancestry. And so when we talk about how to 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:45.720 go forward with this land, why it's important to listen 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:48.680 to the people who have always been there, It said, 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:49.520 a good framework. 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:53.080 All we have is our stories and how we grew 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:57.919 up with the old folks, and we're lucky to have 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:01.360 a rowboat and pair oars. Back in back in the fifties, 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:06.680 still late fifties, some of the people started being able 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:09.520 to get a little three horse Johnson something like that, 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:12.960 and that was a lot of power. But we also 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:19.320 the glaciers have melted away up on the Unich River there, 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:22.520 so that really affects affecting the amount of water flowing. 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:26.360 The level of the water very important to a lot 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:29.280 of us yet to live live the way of life 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:34.159 that we've always lived. Yeah, all the testimony that I 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:39.199 have done as not serious because I don't have a 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:45.400 college education like that. It's just that's that's what they want. 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:49.000 I mean, the people they learn it from school books now, 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:52.480 but they've never lived a life and been on all 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:58.159 these different areas the beaches, you know, and we have 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:01.640 all our seasons. Every season you have something to look 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:06.480 forward to it right after I'll start with the spring 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:13.360 on the Ooligans and and then seaweed and King salmone 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:17.680 is a big big thing to go after. And then 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:23.000 we have you know, the summer and then then to fall. Yeah. 0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:28.760 Also we have the greens called asparagus. While asparagus or 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:35.719 or harvesting all the time we our our children that 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:40.280 we've we have they all know how to do it 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:45.280 where to go. So we've been continued doing in our 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:51.400 teaching on our our side we're just they don't want 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:55.400 to take us serious, I guess anyway. So I've been, 0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:58.480 you know, been do a lot of meetings and talked 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:01.639 about a lot of the stuff here, and it's just 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:04.920 it's going to be a shame if we just keep 0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:08.919 losing everything. We're getting very close salmon and I are 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:13.159 getting a lot less and commercial fishing in my whole life. 0:24:13.160 --> 0:24:16.800 And then later as the kids got older, we went 0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:20.879 into tenderings. We just had family aboard, and you know, 0:24:21.560 --> 0:24:26.639 we would get loads after loads through the seventies into 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:30.720 the eighties, in nineties, and then pretty soon you could 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.879 see the Sainters are coming in with less and less 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:39.320 fish and just Ulligan alone. And been fifteen years up 0:24:39.359 --> 0:24:43.120 there for the Oligan in the spring and get out 0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:44.919 of school for a little while and to go up 0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:49.639 the river ours from metal like Catalan, Alaska to up 0:24:49.640 --> 0:24:52.040 to the Unique River a little over one hundred miles, 0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:54.560 so we have a two hundred mile round trip to 0:24:54.600 --> 0:24:58.000 get up there and back, and there's no safe harbor there. 0:24:58.040 --> 0:25:01.199 It's wide open to the weather. So you have to 0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:05.879 really best to learn from somebody who's been up there 0:25:06.640 --> 0:25:10.240 a few times, and you know they know where you 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:15.400 can maybe duck out of for a safe spot and 0:25:16.600 --> 0:25:20.360 easy to get hurt on the river because they're so shallow. Yeah, 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:22.760 we lost the fifteen years on the river, that's what 0:25:22.840 --> 0:25:28.439 it was, due to weak runs and they disappeared for 0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:31.280 a while. They were going up to other streams to 0:25:31.320 --> 0:25:35.200 get clean water, even on like I'll reveal a good 0:25:35.200 --> 0:25:39.080 gato on Ketchgan Island. They went up there one year 0:25:39.560 --> 0:25:44.000 and there was a really good run. But then they'll 0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:46.479 go through Beam Canal and the other streams when they 0:25:46.560 --> 0:25:52.040 have to. Oligan are pretty smart. They don't have to 0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:55.440 go back to the same river all the time. We'd 0:25:55.520 --> 0:25:58.480 have to go through the canal and check the other 0:25:58.600 --> 0:26:02.440 places where they might go up. But with the salmon, 0:26:03.400 --> 0:26:06.199 they need that clean river because they won't go up 0:26:06.240 --> 0:26:13.000 any other river. And their numbers really really have dropped. 0:26:14.040 --> 0:26:17.720 Used to see king salmon, you know, probably as far 0:26:17.760 --> 0:26:21.000 as I could reach, which is about six feet and 0:26:21.600 --> 0:26:27.080 spawners in the river, and three years ago they were 0:26:28.160 --> 0:26:31.400 maybe long as one arm. I couldn't find any real 0:26:31.440 --> 0:26:33.480 big ones in there. But it was good to see 0:26:33.520 --> 0:26:38.040 some of them coming back. But that won't last longer. 0:26:38.840 --> 0:26:42.480 Things continue to go their way. 0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:48.560 They are Yeah, it's very sad to hear it like this. Yeah, 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:54.639 this these changes you've seen, I suppose so preps you 0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:58.760 could explain to us, like this emergency declaration that's been made, right, 0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:04.879 and we've heard Louis explained very eloquently how I had this, 0:27:05.160 --> 0:27:10.080 how he's seen this decay over his life, and how 0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:14.440 can like accepting this leadership right, there's this emergency that 0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:19.240 that's been declared. I guess, like it is it possible? 0:27:19.320 --> 0:27:21.840 You said Simon were very resilient, and Tod the Oarligan 0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:26.680 were very smart. Can things return to the way they work? 0:27:26.720 --> 0:27:28.639 Can we at least stop things getting worse? 0:27:29.480 --> 0:27:31.000 And how Yeah? 0:27:31.359 --> 0:27:36.560 You know, I think our relationship with the environment is broken. 0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:41.199 I'm a communications specialist, That's that's what I do. So 0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:46.600 I am all about relationships. Now when I talk about relationships, 0:27:46.640 --> 0:27:51.240 I'm just I'm not talking just about relationships with our 0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:54.480 fellow human beings, but I'm talking about relationships with. 0:27:54.480 --> 0:27:59.440 The land, the water, the air. And I like. 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:02.680 To for people. I always tell people, you know, when 0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:06.600 you're in a relationship with a significant other or or 0:28:06.640 --> 0:28:08.800 a pet. You know a lot of people have pets. 0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:13.040 It's it's a reciprocal relationship. There's a lot of give 0:28:13.080 --> 0:28:17.800 and take, and and there's a lot of compromise. 0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:19.640 And as as. 0:28:19.440 --> 0:28:24.760 A young boy and growing up in in Gigxan Territory 0:28:24.880 --> 0:28:28.159 and in Jimsand Territory, I was always taught that you 0:28:28.280 --> 0:28:32.000