Speaker 1: Okay, Hello everyone. It's me James today and I'm joined
Speaker 1: by three guests or members of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous
Speaker 1: trans Boundary Commission. What we're talking about today is accepting
Speaker 1: indigenous leadership on issues of climate change and issues of
Speaker 1: more broadly ecological damage. And specifically we're discussing an emergency
Speaker 1: declaration that they recently released about the state of the
Speaker 1: Pacific salmon population. If I'm not mistaken, so I'm going
Speaker 1: to ask each of them to introduce themselves. If you
Speaker 1: could give us your name and any relevant affiliations that
Speaker 1: you think listeners should know, that would be wonderful.
Speaker 2: Hello.
Speaker 3: My name is Kirby Mouldeau. My ancestral name is hopwell Asa.
Speaker 3: I am from the Simsan people in what is now
Speaker 3: known as Northwest British Columbia, Canada. My mother is jim San,
Speaker 3: my father is Gigsan, and I am from wilp we Get,
Speaker 3: which is the house of the Night Drummer from the
Speaker 3: Fireweed Plan.
Speaker 4: I am also.
Speaker 3: An independent consultant and contractor and I look forward to
Speaker 3: our discussion today.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 5: Hi. I'm Louis Wagner Junior from Metlakatla, Alaska, and I'm
Speaker 5: Taquiddy of the brown Bear Plan from Cape Fox. Sanyu
Speaker 5: Kuan and I have lived in Metla Catla my whole
Speaker 5: life of seventy five years. And we're connected to the
Speaker 5: Eunuch River through my grandmother and she was born at
Speaker 5: Cape Fox. And we've been on the Eunuch River ever
Speaker 5: since I was big enough to go with my older
Speaker 5: brother and so I've been up there since like nineteen
Speaker 5: sixty wow, and my brothers was up to close to
Speaker 5: twenty years before that. So but our family has always
Speaker 5: been on the Eunich River to harvest. Had the fish
Speaker 5: camp up there and we'd fish the uligans, bring the
Speaker 5: uligans home to the people, and the catch can sacksmon
Speaker 5: metal catline. Then people would send them out to the
Speaker 5: West coast. So we're very connected. We go up to
Speaker 5: the Eunich in the spring for uligan and the fall
Speaker 5: for hunting. Now they used to do the salmon up
Speaker 5: on the river with the fish camp. I served on
Speaker 5: our community council from two thousand and two about I
Speaker 5: think twenty fifteen in there, and now i'm their tribal
Speaker 5: right rights representative for the community and I report back
Speaker 5: to our council after each of our meetings.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. And Guy, would you like to
Speaker 1: introduce yourself.
Speaker 2: Yes, my name is Guy Archibald. I'm the executive director
Speaker 2: of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous trans Boundary Commission. We were
Speaker 2: formed about nine years ago by a commission of fifteen
Speaker 2: sovereign tribes in Southeast Alaska reacting to a huge amount
Speaker 2: of mind development and further potential mind development going on
Speaker 2: in the trans boundary watersheds that drain from British Columbia
Speaker 2: to Alaska. I used to work at the mines. I'm
Speaker 2: an environmental chemist by trade. I helped tribes monitor their
Speaker 2: own environments and their food security through science. And yeah,
Speaker 2: I've looking forward to this discussion as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a fantastic setup for all of you. Thank
Speaker 1: you very much. So I think we should begin because
Speaker 1: maybe people may have missed the extent and the severity
Speaker 1: of the emergency with salmon populations, and so perhaps we
Speaker 1: could start out by explaining how it was. It seems
Speaker 1: like Louis you have a lot of experience there, and
Speaker 1: then what has caused things to be at a situation
Speaker 1: they're at now. Would that be a good way to
Speaker 1: go about it.
Speaker 5: Yes, that would be a good way. Where we are
Speaker 5: at now on the salmon is that bruce Jack mine
Speaker 5: started on the river and none of us knew about
Speaker 5: it until way late summers around the mid nineties, nineteen nineties,
Speaker 5: and by by two thousand, especially I'm in the spring
Speaker 5: when we've up there, that ooligans were starting to disappear,
Speaker 5: and then then the fall of moose hunting, the salmon
Speaker 5: were disappearing, and there's a lot less bears and moose
Speaker 5: now where the river along the river bank would be
Speaker 5: full of the parts of the fish that bears didn't eat.
Speaker 5: There'd be so many bears and fish, and now you
Speaker 5: don't smell any of that. But and it's really affected
Speaker 5: the king salmon. They completely disappeared for at least six
Speaker 5: years that my son and I noticed they spawn up
Speaker 5: on the river there, and as we always pay attention,
Speaker 5: we check on the main spawning stream of Kingsbury where
Speaker 5: they spawn. And the last three years we've been starting
Speaker 5: to see some come back, and that bruce Jack mine,
Speaker 5: which found out later they were put their tailings into
Speaker 5: a lake up on the mountain there and then you know,
Speaker 5: as they filled it up and the rain filled it up.
Speaker 5: The overflow came down into the river, and the river
Speaker 5: is so shallow, it's only a few inches deep, and
Speaker 5: it's it's not very wide. It's the smallest river out
Speaker 5: of the stacking and the taku there, and so any
Speaker 5: pollution in that river will completely kill it off. The
Speaker 5: salmon runs their way down from what we've seen through
Speaker 5: the years. But you know, it's also the wildlife that's
Speaker 5: disappearing with it, because there's the feet, isn't there. They's
Speaker 5: not the amount of seagulls, a lot less seals and
Speaker 5: sea lions. It's effecting on the food chain everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I spent a little bit of time in
Speaker 1: your part of the world just pack rafting and hiking
Speaker 1: and things, and certainly it's a it's a very beautiful place,
Speaker 1: but it's very like a fragile one too. As you've
Speaker 1: explained that these minds can very quickly have this effect
Speaker 1: that cascades at the ecosystem. Could you explain a little
Speaker 1: bit of the role that salmon play not just in
Speaker 1: the in the provision of food for the for the
Speaker 1: animal life of the area, but also like the role
Speaker 1: they play traditionally in provisioning and feeding indigenous people.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, we you know, we put up as much
Speaker 5: sockey as we can and then then king salmon and
Speaker 5: then a lot of it we'll fish and get there
Speaker 5: in the winter to eat, you know, and just get
Speaker 5: them fresh because they don't keep as well in the freezer.
Speaker 5: But as indigenous, you could, you know, look in our
Speaker 5: pantry and see we've lived the same life as I
Speaker 5: grew up with my parents and grandparents. Nothing has changed
Speaker 5: for us. We've taught our children the same way to
Speaker 5: harvest and take care of the fish. Back in the
Speaker 5: fifties when his little kid in Mettle catal Alaska, hardly
Speaker 5: anyone if they even had a refrigerator. They didn't have freezers,
Speaker 5: so they had to smoke the fish really hard, and
Speaker 5: they put them in those things they're like four gallon
Speaker 5: coffee cans too, with newspaper on the bottom and on top.
Speaker 5: Then they would keep through the winter, they wouldn't wouldn't
Speaker 5: get moldy. So that was their the main staple for
Speaker 5: the for the whole year.
Speaker 1: Is it a situation now that like people just can't
Speaker 1: rely on salmon as a staple food because of the
Speaker 1: mining tailings, reducing the population.
Speaker 5: Yeah, without any hardly any king salmon coming in. There's
Speaker 5: you know, a few from the hatchery out there, but
Speaker 5: they even in Kitchkan they've closed the king salmon derby
Speaker 5: for I think it's into its fourth year now. So
Speaker 5: it's just that that other big mine goes in the
Speaker 5: river will be destroyed and it's going to flow all
Speaker 5: the way out into into the ocean here into Clarence
Speaker 5: Streets and Dickson Entrance. There has been no avoiding it.
Speaker 5: It's got nowhere else to go with comes straight out
Speaker 5: to the West Beam Canal and then East Beam Canal.
Speaker 4: KEB.
Speaker 1: I know you're not quite in exactly the same place,
Speaker 1: but can you explain the situation with the salmon population
Speaker 1: where you are?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe I'll give a little more context to that.
Speaker 3: I live in Northern British Columbia, Northwest British Columbia on
Speaker 3: the on the in the Skin of River watershed, and
Speaker 3: over the past uh, probably thirty or four years, we've
Speaker 3: seen an extreme decline in salmon uh, specifically sakei uh
Speaker 3: and king salmon as you guys call it. We call
Speaker 3: them spring salmon over here. But we've seen an extreme
Speaker 3: decline in returns. And you know, we've we've stopped a
Speaker 3: lot of our commercial fisheries and our food fisheries until
Speaker 3: which time we feel that the the returns are sufficient
Speaker 3: enough so that we can continue to harvest. So we've
Speaker 3: got the Taii Test Fishery at the mouth of the Schena,
Speaker 3: and they they do a count every year throughout starting
Speaker 3: in the spring and throughout most of the summer, they
Speaker 3: do a test fishery and they estimate the amount of
Speaker 3: salmon that are returning. And we do not fish, as
Speaker 3: I said, commercially or for food until we feel that
Speaker 3: the numbers are sufficient that have gone past that fishery.
Speaker 3: There are many obstacles that face salmon today, most of
Speaker 3: which are a result of human activity logging, mining, commercial fishing,
Speaker 3: oil and gas. And we all have to take a
Speaker 3: little bit of responsibility for that because we all enjoy
Speaker 3: those resources and we use them. And I've always said
Speaker 3: to people that we can't mine our way out of
Speaker 3: this global warming and climate change. We have to learn
Speaker 3: how to we have to learn how to use less.
Speaker 3: And as I said, you know, mining, obviously it's a
Speaker 3: big concern, but there's also logging, there's oil and gas
Speaker 3: as well as commercial fishery. You know, there's a lot
Speaker 3: of things that happen out in open waters in the
Speaker 3: North Pacific that can be changed fairly easily.
Speaker 4: You know, they there's a fishery right now.
Speaker 3: I believe it's an area one oh four, a fishery
Speaker 3: that is targeting.
Speaker 4: Pink salmon.
Speaker 3: But by our estimations and by estimations from Alaska fisheries,
Speaker 3: they are the bycatch for Skina salmon. Skina sakey salmon
Speaker 3: that are returning to the Skina is about four hundred
Speaker 3: and seventy thousand. Now, these are sakey that are a bycatch.
Speaker 3: We're not asking this fishery to stop. We're asking this
Speaker 3: fishery to be more of a terminus fishery, which means
Speaker 3: that they better target the pink salmon. So right now
Speaker 3: they're fishing in open waters approximately half the fleet. From
Speaker 3: what I understand, we're not asking this fishery to stop.
Speaker 3: 're asking them to move inside so that skin and
Speaker 3: sockeye can go past this fishery. And right now we
Speaker 3: are just barely making our escapement every year that make
Speaker 3: it up into the headwaters where they can spawn. And
Speaker 3: so you know there's a lot of different ways we
Speaker 3: can address the issue of salmon declining in numbers. There's
Speaker 3: some low hanging fruit, there's a lot of other things
Speaker 3: that are going to take a lot of time to enforce.
Speaker 3: I'm hoping as transboundary nations, we can come together to
Speaker 3: work towards making sure that salmon have a fighting chance.
Speaker 3: Salmon are very resilient. They are keystone species, and they're
Speaker 3: a good indicator of the health of the environment and
Speaker 3: surrounding areas as well as the water.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's an excellent summary. Thank you. And
Speaker 1: preps guy, you have a little bit more experience on
Speaker 1: the industrial side of thing, I guess can you explain
Speaker 1: how it is that on the face fit because Louis
Speaker 1: was saying the tribal nations weren't aware that this mine
Speaker 1: in one case or these certainly like these other practices, right,
Speaker 1: some of which are sort of very nebulous, like global warming,
Speaker 1: others which are specific like this socce bycatch and the
Speaker 1: forestry with the nations in question here, like the people
Speaker 1: who's ancestral and current homelands this is happening on not
Speaker 1: consulted or was there insufficient extpert of the consequences when
Speaker 1: these with these minds and forestry operations were opened.
Speaker 2: Certainly especially early on, you know, to this day and
Speaker 2: to this day, the right of free entry, which means
Speaker 2: somebody could be sitting pretty much anywhere in the world
Speaker 2: get on the internet and claim a mine claim without
Speaker 2: any kind of notification to the landowner or surface owner
Speaker 2: by swiping a credit card. So, uh, there's no even
Speaker 2: requirement for notification on that. And you know, early on,
Speaker 2: the mining companies, you know, they do a investor presentation.
Speaker 2: Here's that they're doing in Las Vegas and New York
Speaker 2: and this and that, and then they attempt to come
Speaker 2: into the communities with that presentation. And what they might
Speaker 2: call meaningful engagement is actually one it's completely one sided.
Speaker 2: It's not respectful of the process within that tribe or
Speaker 2: that community, and it's completely tone deaf. And so what engagement,
Speaker 2: what consultation does happen, is incredibly inadequate. To make matters worse,
Speaker 2: the South, the Alaskan tribes are landless communities. We don't
Speaker 2: have jurisdiction over a land area. And great work is
Speaker 2: being done, though we're not starting from zero here. First
Speaker 2: nations out on the land through landguardian programs and more
Speaker 2: doing great work Southeast tribes monitoring, you know, their ecosystems
Speaker 2: and food security and fish consumption and all that great
Speaker 2: science and information. But we do need to incorporate one.
Speaker 2: We need to recognize that we can't manage a complex
Speaker 2: organism such as a watershed by dividing it down the
Speaker 2: middle under two different jurisdictions. We have to I don't
Speaker 2: say move the border, we basically have to erase it,
Speaker 2: and we need to treat that ecosystem as a whole.
Speaker 2: Climate change is having a huge impact. The chinook or
Speaker 2: the king salmon or the spring salmon, they're the largest,
Speaker 2: so they have the largest egg, they have the less
Speaker 2: surface area and the environment to absorb oxygen, so they're
Speaker 2: kind of an indicator of the first you have a problem,
Speaker 2: you're kind of red flag going up, you know, in
Speaker 2: your network, complex ecosystem and both Caribbean right, we're right,
Speaker 2: it's the crash of the entire network that we're seeing.
Speaker 2: Salmon is just an indicator of that. But we're seeing
Speaker 2: it across the board and it's unfortunate because here, especially
Speaker 2: right now in Southeast Alaska. I live in Juno, Alaska,
Speaker 2: prior to European contact, there was probably five times the
Speaker 2: population living here than there is now. You look at
Speaker 2: maps of the old village there everywhere, and they've been
Speaker 2: there for tens of thousands of years. They managed to
Speaker 2: do it sustainably, do it with bounce, do it with
Speaker 2: effective You don't really call it in management, but in
Speaker 2: engagement with nature. And so here we are kind of
Speaker 2: on the front lines of it. And strangely enough, we
Speaker 2: have the solution and people who have within their oral
Speaker 2: history the stories of migrating due to climate change, of
Speaker 2: adjusting their life due to climate change. It's in the
Speaker 2: history or you know, the current oral history. And so
Speaker 2: when we're looking when we say unify here, there's a
Speaker 2: great voice and indigenous people too if there is. And
Speaker 2: it's hard to justify with mining, I'm just going to say,
Speaker 2: because it's an inherently extractive down to the last profitable
Speaker 2: dollar industry. It's not sustainable. It's it's reducible constantly as
Speaker 2: it operates, and now it's being used to justify climate change.
Speaker 2: Adjusting to climate change is now being used to justify
Speaker 2: more mining, which again, as usual, is going to fall
Speaker 2: on the backs of the local people. And communities and
Speaker 2: indigenous people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's shocking. Similar to issues that we see where
Speaker 1: I live, which is at the other end of the
Speaker 1: United States and on the southern border, where the Colorado
Speaker 1: River is a binational river, right, which is managed by
Speaker 1: two countries kind of in aggressive competition. And we're seeing
Speaker 1: the same thing here, just a different states. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: different states, yes, yeah, and all of them have competing
Speaker 1: I was rafting the Colorado River last year, and I've
Speaker 1: paddled the Colorado River. But they change in that river
Speaker 1: ecosystem that I've seen, and I've only lived in the
Speaker 1: US for fifteen years. It's remarkable and I can't imagine
Speaker 1: what it's like over seventy five years. And the same
Speaker 1: thing with mining. Actually we're seeing the justification of very
Speaker 1: damaging lithium mining rights and then being told that this
Speaker 1: is a solution to climate change and whilst also destroying
Speaker 1: these ecosystems. If people think it's just an issue that
Speaker 1: affects one group of people in one group of the
Speaker 1: part of the world, it's not. It's very universal. And
Speaker 1: that's just in the United States. We see the same
Speaker 1: thing places I've traveled for work in East Africa and
Speaker 1: in South America. I wonder then if we could talk
Speaker 1: about the value of accepting indigenous leadership when it comes
Speaker 1: to addressing I think we began addressing that and guys
Speaker 1: come up very well. But perhaps one thing we could
Speaker 1: talk about when we talk about that is I think
Speaker 1: when people think about specifically British Columbia and Alaska, they
Speaker 1: the people will use the term like frontier or wilderness
Speaker 1: a lot, right, which erases the fact that, as Guy
Speaker 1: mentioned and both of you have shared with us, that
Speaker 1: people have been living there for tens of thousands of
Speaker 1: years in a way that was sustainable, right, Like, these
Speaker 1: weren't places without human beings. It wasn't empty land, and
Speaker 1: it was just land that wasn't inhabited by people of
Speaker 1: European ancestry. And so when we talk about how to
Speaker 1: go forward with this land, why it's important to listen
Speaker 1: to the people who have always been there, It said,
Speaker 1: a good framework.
Speaker 5: All we have is our stories and how we grew
Speaker 5: up with the old folks, and we're lucky to have
Speaker 5: a rowboat and pair oars. Back in back in the fifties,
Speaker 5: still late fifties, some of the people started being able
Speaker 5: to get a little three horse Johnson something like that,
Speaker 5: and that was a lot of power. But we also
Speaker 5: the glaciers have melted away up on the Unich River there,
Speaker 5: so that really affects affecting the amount of water flowing.
Speaker 5: The level of the water very important to a lot
Speaker 5: of us yet to live live the way of life
Speaker 5: that we've always lived. Yeah, all the testimony that I
Speaker 5: have done as not serious because I don't have a
Speaker 5: college education like that. It's just that's that's what they want.
Speaker 5: I mean, the people they learn it from school books now,
Speaker 5: but they've never lived a life and been on all
Speaker 5: these different areas the beaches, you know, and we have
Speaker 5: all our seasons. Every season you have something to look
Speaker 5: forward to it right after I'll start with the spring
Speaker 5: on the Ooligans and and then seaweed and King salmone
Speaker 5: is a big big thing to go after. And then
Speaker 5: we have you know, the summer and then then to fall. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Also we have the greens called asparagus. While asparagus or
Speaker 5: or harvesting all the time we our our children that
Speaker 5: we've we have they all know how to do it
Speaker 5: where to go. So we've been continued doing in our
Speaker 5: teaching on our our side we're just they don't want
Speaker 5: to take us serious, I guess anyway. So I've been,
Speaker 5: you know, been do a lot of meetings and talked
Speaker 5: about a lot of the stuff here, and it's just
Speaker 5: it's going to be a shame if we just keep
Speaker 5: losing everything. We're getting very close salmon and I are
Speaker 5: getting a lot less and commercial fishing in my whole life.
Speaker 5: And then later as the kids got older, we went
Speaker 5: into tenderings. We just had family aboard, and you know,
Speaker 5: we would get loads after loads through the seventies into
Speaker 5: the eighties, in nineties, and then pretty soon you could
Speaker 5: see the Sainters are coming in with less and less
Speaker 5: fish and just Ulligan alone. And been fifteen years up
Speaker 5: there for the Oligan in the spring and get out
Speaker 5: of school for a little while and to go up
Speaker 5: the river ours from metal like Catalan, Alaska to up
Speaker 5: to the Unique River a little over one hundred miles,
Speaker 5: so we have a two hundred mile round trip to
Speaker 5: get up there and back, and there's no safe harbor there.
Speaker 5: It's wide open to the weather. So you have to
Speaker 5: really best to learn from somebody who's been up there
Speaker 5: a few times, and you know they know where you
Speaker 5: can maybe duck out of for a safe spot and
Speaker 5: easy to get hurt on the river because they're so shallow. Yeah,
Speaker 5: we lost the fifteen years on the river, that's what
Speaker 5: it was, due to weak runs and they disappeared for
Speaker 5: a while. They were going up to other streams to
Speaker 5: get clean water, even on like I'll reveal a good
Speaker 5: gato on Ketchgan Island. They went up there one year
Speaker 5: and there was a really good run. But then they'll
Speaker 5: go through Beam Canal and the other streams when they
Speaker 5: have to. Oligan are pretty smart. They don't have to
Speaker 5: go back to the same river all the time. We'd
Speaker 5: have to go through the canal and check the other
Speaker 5: places where they might go up. But with the salmon,
Speaker 5: they need that clean river because they won't go up
Speaker 5: any other river. And their numbers really really have dropped.
Speaker 5: Used to see king salmon, you know, probably as far
Speaker 5: as I could reach, which is about six feet and
Speaker 5: spawners in the river, and three years ago they were
Speaker 5: maybe long as one arm. I couldn't find any real
Speaker 5: big ones in there. But it was good to see
Speaker 5: some of them coming back. But that won't last longer.
Speaker 5: Things continue to go their way.
Speaker 1: They are Yeah, it's very sad to hear it like this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this these changes you've seen, I suppose so preps you
Speaker 1: could explain to us, like this emergency declaration that's been made, right,
Speaker 1: and we've heard Louis explained very eloquently how I had this,
Speaker 1: how he's seen this decay over his life, and how
Speaker 1: can like accepting this leadership right, there's this emergency that
Speaker 1: that's been declared. I guess, like it is it possible?
Speaker 1: You said Simon were very resilient, and Tod the Oarligan
Speaker 1: were very smart. Can things return to the way they work?
Speaker 1: Can we at least stop things getting worse?
Speaker 2: And how Yeah?
Speaker 3: You know, I think our relationship with the environment is broken.
Speaker 3: I'm a communications specialist, That's that's what I do. So
Speaker 3: I am all about relationships. Now when I talk about relationships,
Speaker 3: I'm just I'm not talking just about relationships with our
Speaker 3: fellow human beings, but I'm talking about relationships with.
Speaker 4: The land, the water, the air. And I like.
Speaker 3: To for people. I always tell people, you know, when
Speaker 3: you're in a relationship with a significant other or or
Speaker 3: a pet. You know a lot of people have pets.
Speaker 3: It's it's a reciprocal relationship. There's a lot of give
Speaker 3: and take, and and there's a lot of compromise.
Speaker 4: And as as.
Speaker 3: A young boy and growing up in in Gigxan Territory
Speaker 3: and in Jimsand Territory, I was always taught that you
Speaker 3: only took what you needed, and you didn't you didn't
Speaker 3: take anymore, and you respected all living things. You know,
Speaker 3: I don't mean to pick on anybody, but sport fishing
Speaker 3: is against our laws. You know, we don't play with fish.
Speaker 3: It's it's it's just something we do not do. And
Speaker 3: and when I'm talking about our relationship with with all
Speaker 3: living things, uh, you know, the land, the water, the swimmers,
Speaker 3: the two leg at, the four lang, the ones fly,
Speaker 3: our relationship with them is broken.
Speaker 4: You know, we used to harvest a lot more than
Speaker 4: we do now.
Speaker 3: You know, in the skin of watershed, you know, we
Speaker 3: used to harvest seals. We used to harvest you know,
Speaker 3: a lot more things other than just salmon. And what
Speaker 3: we've done over the last fifty or so years has
Speaker 3: put so much pressure on salmon that they just can't
Speaker 3: sustain it.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: You know, I might not be very popular for saying this,
Speaker 3: but you know, we used to eat a lot more seals,
Speaker 3: and I think we should commercialize a seal hunt and
Speaker 3: sell those products so that people can make money and
Speaker 3: people can be fed. I'm not blaming the seals for
Speaker 3: the decline in salmon. There's a lot of factors at
Speaker 3: play when it comes to the decline in salmon. But
Speaker 3: what I'm trying to explain is that our relationship with
Speaker 3: the environment is broken and we need to fix it,
Speaker 3: and it's out of balance right now, and we need
Speaker 3: to bring it back to balance, and we just need
Speaker 3: to consume less.
Speaker 1: Certainly. Yeah, and does that I'm curious that that sort
Speaker 1: of like heavy emphasis on salmon is that because it
Speaker 1: was very commercial, so people would be able to harvest
Speaker 1: just as salmon and sell it as opposed to harvesting
Speaker 1: these other animals that they were harvesting before.
Speaker 4: I think I think salmon were very plentiful, right.
Speaker 3: You know, you hear stories about when when the Europeans
Speaker 3: first arrived, you know, they could I've heard stories of them,
Speaker 3: you know, putting a bucket into the water and pulling
Speaker 3: the bucket out and it would be just full of salmon.
Speaker 4: Right, So I thought I think.
Speaker 3: That you know, there there was a mentality that you know,
Speaker 3: the resource was infinite, right, it would last forever.
Speaker 4: I think that was the mentality.
Speaker 3: And so they just harvested it, harvested as much as
Speaker 3: they could, as fast as they could, and centered around
Speaker 3: the world.
Speaker 4: And you know, if any of your.
Speaker 3: Listeners haven't tasted salmon, it's it's one of the most
Speaker 3: flavorful things you've ever you will ever taste. And it's
Speaker 3: it's the best meat in the world on the planet
Speaker 3: for you in terms of nutrients and and such. And
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's totally natural, and yeah, it's just
Speaker 3: all around good for the environment.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: It feeds the birds, the two legs, the four legs.
Speaker 3: It even feeds plants, you know, and it's it's so resilient.
Speaker 3: And we just need to give salmon a chance and
Speaker 3: figure out a way forward where we can have a
Speaker 3: reciprocal relationship with salmon and the environment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and preps, like are their concrete steps? Like a
Speaker 1: lot of our listeners are not in the areas where
Speaker 1: you are, but they could be all over the world, right,
Speaker 1: But are there things they could do to show solidarity,
Speaker 1: to give you support? How can they help?
Speaker 2: Well, I would encourage encourage everybody to you know, visit
Speaker 2: our website and and kind of understand what we see
Speaker 2: as a pathway forward for remedying this. You know, it's
Speaker 2: it's you shouldn't come to the table to complain about
Speaker 2: a problem unless you have a remedy proposed here and
Speaker 2: and that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to
Speaker 2: take that knowledge that it is in you know, Louis
Speaker 2: and just in the Unich and the knowledge in every
Speaker 2: little stream, even the knowledge within the genetics, that fine
Speaker 2: grain of every salmon that goes up every little stream,
Speaker 2: and get that incorporated into you know, the uh, you know,
Speaker 2: into an engagement process that ultimately, the way we've been
Speaker 2: doing it is a failed experiment. We can call that
Speaker 2: now because these methods we put in to try to
Speaker 2: protect wild salmon, we've seen nothing wild salmon decline. You
Speaker 2: asked if salmon are resilient. They very much are. They
Speaker 2: very much are resilient. There's reason there's five species of
Speaker 2: salmon here is because of all the upheaval, seismic upheaval
Speaker 2: living on the Pacific rim. They're very resilient to the
Speaker 2: occasional large impact. Just like you and me, though, were
Speaker 2: very unresilient to constant pressure and stress. You know what
Speaker 2: it does to your digestive system, nervous system, everything, your
Speaker 2: family life. It's the same for these ecosystems. It's not
Speaker 2: the occasional huge impact, it's the continuous stress. And this
Speaker 2: area was not it's not really pristine. It was highly
Speaker 2: modified by the people. They inactively engaged with their environment.
Speaker 2: They enhanced salmon streams and resting pools, They built clam gardens,
Speaker 2: they move trees and vegetation around, you know, enhanced beaches,
Speaker 2: and it was very active. And we can incorporate that
Speaker 2: knowledge into how we move forward on a lot of
Speaker 2: these things, and we need to do that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, when people ask me what they can do, I
Speaker 3: respond by saying, what you can do is change your habits. Now,
Speaker 3: a lot of people think that this climate change problem,
Speaker 3: resource extraction, et cetera is too big for us to tackle, but.
Speaker 4: Actually it's not.
Speaker 3: You know, if we all do a little bit and
Speaker 3: just change our habits, we can make huge change.
Speaker 4: You know, I always think.
Speaker 3: About you know, in British Columbia and in Canada, gosh
Speaker 3: about you know, forty years ago they brought in a
Speaker 3: law stating that everybody had to wear seat belts. There
Speaker 3: was huge backlash. Nobody wanted to wear a seat belt.
Speaker 3: They weren't used to it, right, But after a while,
Speaker 3: you know, nobody, nobody even bothered to complain about it.
Speaker 3: We just do it whenever I get into my vehicle.
Speaker 3: Now it's second nature to put my seat belt on.
Speaker 3: I don't even think about it. It's done. Now, if
Speaker 3: we can all just look at some of the habits
Speaker 3: that we have, whether it's you know, using too much water,
Speaker 3: maybe some wasteful practices, you know, driving when we don't
Speaker 3: need to drive. Maybe maybe we can walk a little
Speaker 3: more often, and maybe we can bike a little more often.
Speaker 4: Just really look at what.
Speaker 3: Actions you're taking daily that may be contributing to climate
Speaker 3: change and global warming, and try to change one habit.
Speaker 3: And when you've got that habit, change change another one.
Speaker 3: And you know, I think over time we can we
Speaker 3: can fix this. But it's going to take a concerned
Speaker 3: effort by everybody on this planet, and more so by
Speaker 3: some of us who are a little more privileged I guess,
Speaker 3: to be able to change our habits.
Speaker 1: Thanks, yeah, I think that was very very well said.
Speaker 1: And do you have anything to add Louis.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I appreciate what Kirby said earlier on. We're connected
Speaker 5: to the land h and everybody's grandmother was your grandmother
Speaker 5: when I was growing up. As long as you were,
Speaker 5: you know, you paid attention and you would help. I
Speaker 5: remember when in the fish camp, grandmother brought my friend
Speaker 5: and myself into the smokehouse and they had they had
Speaker 5: a fish that was just put in, the salmon that
Speaker 5: was in the middle, and the finished salmon that was
Speaker 5: ready to come out on the end. And you know,
Speaker 5: they would only tell you once. They said, you can
Speaker 5: eat all you want, but if you waste one piece,
Speaker 5: you were never welcomed in the smokehouses again. So they
Speaker 5: didn't waste time. And they told it would tell the
Speaker 5: children when they get too loud, your children are to
Speaker 5: be seen but not heard, And just like that, they
Speaker 5: never stopped teaching. It was I wish I could remember
Speaker 5: more from a long time ago, but I was lucky
Speaker 5: that they treated. You know, whatever friend I had there,
Speaker 5: their grandparents were were mine that just learned how to
Speaker 5: get bark off the cedar tree, and so you don't
Speaker 5: kill the cedar tree. From my friend's grandmother. I never
Speaker 5: forgotten when my wife wanted to go out and get
Speaker 5: get some.
Speaker 4: Bark.
Speaker 5: She was surprised. I told her I know how to
Speaker 5: do it, and so we would. We went out and
Speaker 5: got it. Just things like that, is were just trying
Speaker 5: not to leave a footprint when when we left, or
Speaker 5: insights there any camp areas. Oh, I just wanted to
Speaker 5: add that, thank.
Speaker 4: You, thank you.
Speaker 1: It's very insightful. So talking of leaving a footprint, I
Speaker 1: think preaps. The last thing I want to talk about
Speaker 1: is mind tailings and and the way that because of
Speaker 1: some of these minds. So there are some I guess
Speaker 1: minds that people want to build, and there's some minds
Speaker 1: of people have already built. Right about I was reading
Speaker 1: on your website about tailing dam and what that is
Speaker 1: and what that does and what that might mean for
Speaker 1: protecting the ecosystem. So can you explain what a tailing
Speaker 1: stam is and what a tailing stamp failure is?
Speaker 5: Just what I learned a little bit on a meeting
Speaker 5: up in Anchorage on the form on the Alaska Environment,
Speaker 5: and they had scientists there that we're speaking and this
Speaker 5: is a few years ago now, and they talked about
Speaker 5: every mind that's in place is poisoning the rivers to
Speaker 5: this state, and it will always poison because it doesn't
Speaker 5: stop bleeding out of there wherever they were mining. That
Speaker 5: was very interesting, and they had just started to do
Speaker 5: some water sampling and we were trying to do that,
Speaker 5: and this year we were finally able to do something
Speaker 5: with that. We got to start with this guy there
Speaker 5: and looking forward to get water samples come fall at
Speaker 5: moose hunting time and we'll have to see how many
Speaker 5: he would like to have this time. I just know, no,
Speaker 5: it's not good. It's poisonous. The water used to be
Speaker 5: that beautiful bluish glacier water coming down through the river
Speaker 5: there and not seeing that anymore. So I want to
Speaker 5: get first water for coffee. I'll go to the side
Speaker 5: mountain where I know it's clean and come and coming
Speaker 5: off the mountain. Things like that we have to watch out.
Speaker 2: For, you know, specifically to a tailings damn. That's just
Speaker 2: the containment structure for a tailings dump. They may collumns
Speaker 2: tailings disposal facilities or storage facilities, but they're never coming
Speaker 2: back for them. It's it's a dump. It's permitted, just
Speaker 2: as any municipal landfill would be British Columbia tends to
Speaker 2: use what they call some aqueous tailings disposable. They need
Speaker 2: to keep oxygen from the tailings because otherwise they're going
Speaker 2: to oxidize, They're going to create acid mind drainage, dissolve
Speaker 2: all of these heavy metals into the salmon streams and
Speaker 2: basically a large risk, a large threat. We live in
Speaker 2: a rainforest, so that water bounce is very critical and
Speaker 2: it's almost impossible to do in a time of climate change.
Speaker 2: They're wanting to maintain three meters of water on top
Speaker 2: of these tailings in perpetituity. I mean, at what point
Speaker 2: in perpetituity does any certainty of your predictions completely break down?
Speaker 2: And they require massive amounts of water treatment. And it's
Speaker 2: not just the tailings, it's the waste rock, and in
Speaker 2: Louis's Unich River it's not just the Bruce Jack. But
Speaker 2: now they're permitting the Escape Creek an open pit, and
Speaker 2: already permitted but not yet built, is the KSM, which
Speaker 2: would be one of the top five largest open pits
Speaker 2: in the world on a small water shed with incredibly
Speaker 2: low hardness of water, meaning it cannot absorb any kind
Speaker 2: of change of pH or acid and is home to,
Speaker 2: you know, the spawning and rearing grounds and genetic diversity
Speaker 2: of Pacific salmon. And in the long run, the only
Speaker 2: way we're going to keep salmon from extinction as well,
Speaker 2: as Kirby says, kind of help, you know, change our
Speaker 2: attitude with this world. But we have to maintain that
Speaker 2: genetic diversity that's spawn in all of those little tiny
Speaker 2: streams throughout the coast and far into British Columbia. We
Speaker 2: need that genetic diversity. Salmon are incredibly resilient, but we
Speaker 2: also can't you know, completely ignore our part and disrupt
Speaker 2: the natural cycles here, and as they pointed out, they
Speaker 2: are incredibly disruptive. I did you want to say that,
Speaker 2: you know, Louis mentioned how they're not listening. He's not
Speaker 2: listened to, and that story can be multiplied in every
Speaker 2: community and tribe throughout the Pacific Northwest and probably the
Speaker 2: entire United States about the world. But that's what we're
Speaker 2: trying to remedy here, trying to let's all get together.
Speaker 2: Let's ignore that border. We find out in these meetings
Speaker 2: like our summit, that were actually related, some of us
Speaker 2: were related to one another, and look at this in
Speaker 2: the big picture, holistic way. You have to look at
Speaker 2: big things like climate change and natural ecosystems and complex
Speaker 2: mining that just gets bigger and bigger just due to
Speaker 2: economy of scale. They mine the good stuff a long
Speaker 2: time ago. They took the chocolate chips out of the
Speaker 2: chop go cheb guckie. Now they're going after the baking soda,
Speaker 2: and that creates exponential moral waste.
Speaker 1: Right yeah, because there's less of the stuff they're looking
Speaker 1: for and more of the waste.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I've certainly spent some time around some abandoned mines in Alaska,
Speaker 1: and it's it's wild to see this massive intrusion and
Speaker 1: then abandonment and just sort of complete sort of obligation
Speaker 1: of the responsibility for the damage that it's done.
Speaker 2: I look at the climax lived of a mine in Leadville, Colorado.
Speaker 2: It's a good example.
Speaker 1: Been there too, Yeah, maybe you've seen that. I've raced
Speaker 1: my bike up there a couple of times.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It has to work there, Oh well okay, yeah, yeah, Wow,
Speaker 1: that is a and the impact that it's had on
Speaker 1: that town of the mining, it's all it's a process
Speaker 1: that hurts almost everyone above from the people who owned
Speaker 1: mining companies right, like, it doesn't benefit as many as
Speaker 1: many people as it in the long run, it hurts.
Speaker 2: I think you're going towards benefits, and there there should
Speaker 2: be equitable benefits. But the benefit, the first cut of
Speaker 2: the pie is the environment itself. They have. It not
Speaker 2: only has to just be maintained and sustained, it has
Speaker 2: to actually benefit at this point if we're going to
Speaker 2: avoid large scale collapse and uh. But there's ways of
Speaker 2: doing that, and part of that is giving Indigenous people
Speaker 2: a strong save consent the new laws. You know, Canada
Speaker 2: ratified the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People.
Speaker 2: BC has implemented that through the Declaration on the Rights
Speaker 2: of People's Act. They're supposed to respect, you know, these
Speaker 2: traditional territories. Regardless of the land status of Alaska tribes,
Speaker 2: they certainly have an obligation to respect the First Nations
Speaker 2: and the unseeded territories of the First Nation people in
Speaker 2: British Columbia, that's clear by law, and the Supreme Courts
Speaker 2: have expanded it to people that no longer live in
Speaker 2: Alaska if they still have that direct connection to their
Speaker 2: traditional territories within I'm sorry British Columbia. And so we're
Speaker 2: going to use that to make sure that Louis and
Speaker 2: everybody is heard and get that knowledge as part of
Speaker 2: and not just the knowledge, but the act of participation.
Speaker 2: That's part of the benefit sharing if indeed anything happens.
Speaker 2: But at this point, we just need so much more
Speaker 2: restoration before we damage it further, quite.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, of course, So you spoke about this large
Speaker 1: open pit mind and it's something people can do if
Speaker 1: they want to. I'm guessing it would be optimal for
Speaker 1: them not to open another massive open pit mind. It
Speaker 1: is something people could do to help maybe make that
Speaker 1: a process that, you know, where Indigenous people listen to
Speaker 1: and not just mining interests.
Speaker 2: This indeed is for me and I'll be quit I think,
Speaker 2: you know, unfortunately, the engaging with the process, with the
Speaker 2: recognition that the process is broken, but engaging it to
Speaker 2: the maximum extent you can to try to get your
Speaker 2: word out there and influence decision makers. You got to
Speaker 2: at least do that. Yeah, I'm sure Herbie has stood
Speaker 2: the lines out there in British Columbia. I'm sure you
Speaker 2: can speak to it.
Speaker 3: Please do Yeah, you know, if you're if you or
Speaker 3: your listeners haven't heard of the term indigenous science. I
Speaker 3: would like to introduce that indigenous science is a distinct,
Speaker 3: time tested and methodological knowledge system that can enhance and
Speaker 3: complement Western science. Now I've introduced this many times. It's
Speaker 3: by no means did I invent this at all, but
Speaker 3: I've been introduced to it about a year ago and
Speaker 3: I've been using it a lot.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 3: In many instances, indigenous science is thousands of years old,
Speaker 3: whereas Western science. In some areas such as British Columbia, Canada,
Speaker 3: where we've only you know, been in contact with European
Speaker 3: settlers for just over five hundred years, Indigenous science is
Speaker 3: much much older. It's as I said earlier, it's it's
Speaker 3: time tested and the knowledge is immense. And you know
Speaker 3: that alone should give a lot of credence to to
Speaker 3: the knowledge and the science of indigenous peoples.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's an excellent consideration. And we had
Speaker 1: an episode this week at you we spoke about indigenous
Speaker 1: medical technologies, and I think it's important to recognize these
Speaker 1: things are on a par with like European Western technology
Speaker 1: medical technologies right as opposed to be different from, but
Speaker 1: have them on the same level, and the same with
Speaker 1: the science that you make Sued. I think that's an
Speaker 1: excellent point too.
Speaker 2: I have to chime in because I had that point
Speaker 2: of view. Sometimes I have to laugh because what is
Speaker 2: at least sixty five percent of all pharmaceuticals are derived
Speaker 2: from natural plants that the indigenous people and full knowledge
Speaker 2: for a long time that information wasn't necessarily transferred in
Speaker 2: the nicest manner often, so I need to acknowledge that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, every time we take an aspirin, we're benefiting
Speaker 1: from indigenous science, right, Indigenous medical technologies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and those technologies are incredible. A helibate hook is
Speaker 2: just a prime example. It's it's an incredible study in
Speaker 2: the morphology of the mouth of a helibate, the habits
Speaker 2: of a helibate, and they can design the hook to
Speaker 2: target very specifically the size of the helibate, so they're
Speaker 2: not getting the big breeders and this and that, and
Speaker 2: just the amount of observation, adjustment engineering that goes into
Speaker 2: a helibut because in itself very credible. The Western people
Speaker 2: when they moved in on the at least here on
Speaker 2: the coast, they looked at the way the clink at
Speaker 2: height and Shimshei and people were harvesting fish with beach
Speaker 2: traps and beach nets and whatnot, and they copied that
Speaker 2: fish wheels and they copied that technology, but then they
Speaker 2: took it to the massive extreme and just took everything
Speaker 2: out of the rivers. But they used indigenous technology to
Speaker 2: do it, ironically enough, so we can turn that around,
Speaker 2: you know, we can use that technology to turn this around.
Speaker 2: And there's no reason why we shouldn't.
Speaker 5: Point.
Speaker 1: Is there anything you each would like to leave our
Speaker 1: listeners with, maybe a place they can find you online,
Speaker 1: a way they can show support and something like that.
Speaker 5: A little bit that I didn't mention those. I'm also
Speaker 5: I'm Simpson and Clinkett my grandfather and great grandfather. It
Speaker 5: came from Hartley Bay when Mettle Catla was built by
Speaker 5: them and eighteen eighty seven, I believe and their boat
Speaker 5: builders that they sold their rowboats up and down the coast.
Speaker 5: But yeah, I couldn't spend enough time with my grandfather.
Speaker 5: He was going to just you never stopped learning from
Speaker 5: all of our elders. I just wanted to throw that
Speaker 5: in there.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you so much. How about you, Kevy,
Speaker 1: anything you'd like to leave people with I just.
Speaker 3: Wanted to leave people with this thought. You know, as
Speaker 3: I said earlier, look at the habit that you can change.
Speaker 3: That are the low hanging fruit. And I'd also like
Speaker 3: them to, you know, think about how they can change.
Speaker 3: Think about holding your elected officials accountable. I'm not sure
Speaker 3: what it's like where you're from, but you know, a
Speaker 3: lot of our elected officials they like to talk, but
Speaker 3: they don't like to do anything. So actions speak louder
Speaker 3: than words. Hold your elected officials accountable every time you
Speaker 3: see them, ask them what they're doing about.
Speaker 4: Protecting wild salmon.
Speaker 1: Thanks, thank you guy, and think from you.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, quickly along the lines of what Kirby was saying,
Speaker 2: I mean, recognize that the medals that are necessary to
Speaker 2: support our lifestyle are already there. They're in our walls,
Speaker 2: in our cars, in our computers. The idea that we
Speaker 2: need more of these metals in our lives is just
Speaker 2: the idea that we need more stuff in our lives.
Speaker 2: And that addiction is what's strangling this planet. And so Louis,
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sorry. Kirby's you know advice is you know,
Speaker 2: is very strong. But if you want to follow along,
Speaker 2: go to www. Dot s E I t C, dot
Speaker 2: org O rg SO Southeast Alaska Indigenous trans Boundary Commission
Speaker 2: s C I t C. We're just getting started and
Speaker 2: so there should be some incredible stories along the way.
Speaker 3: One last thing I'd like to say is that we
Speaker 3: really need to consider the circular economy right now. We
Speaker 3: live in a society where we throw away so many things.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: I think about vehicle that go to the junkyard and
Speaker 3: they're crushed, you know, like we should be taking those
Speaker 3: vehicles apart, using the parts that we can, instead of
Speaker 3: just crushing it into this big, massive rock that we're
Speaker 3: eventually going to need to dismantle again sometime in the future.
Speaker 3: We should be doing that now, and if there are
Speaker 3: any good parts in that vehicle, then they should be
Speaker 3: put back into circulation.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's an extad point.
Speaker 2: They are elements after all.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well they're already broken down into the elements, right,
Speaker 3: and we're just crushing them back into a big rock again,
Speaker 3: and then we're gonna have to take them out into
Speaker 3: the elements again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when when we run aft have to dig out
Speaker 1: of the ground. It's very sad to think that, like
Speaker 1: the same desire. A colleague and I spent some time
Speaker 1: reporting on the civil war in Myanmar last year, and
Speaker 1: that's the same thing. It's people trying to extract rare
Speaker 1: earth metals and and it's it's people dying and the
Speaker 1: big damage because of it. And it's I think Cove
Speaker 1: made next one point that like if we don't, you know,
Speaker 1: those things are already there, and guys said it, like
Speaker 1: in our walls and in our computers and things, and
Speaker 1: we could do so much better to use the ones
Speaker 1: we have rather than consistently damaging people on the planet
Speaker 1: to dig up more.
Speaker 2: Respectful. Yeah, and be respectful.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much all of you for giving me
Speaker 1: some of your afternoon and sharing your time with our listeners.
Speaker 1: I know they would really appreciate it, and I do
Speaker 1: you too. It could happen here as a production of
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media.
Speaker 5: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
Speaker 5: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
Speaker 5: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 3: You can find sources for It could Happen here, updated
Speaker 3: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening,