1
00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,399
Speaker 1: Okay, Hello everyone. It's me James today and I'm joined

2
00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,440
Speaker 1: by three guests or members of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous

3
00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:16,200
Speaker 1: trans Boundary Commission. What we're talking about today is accepting

4
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,560
Speaker 1: indigenous leadership on issues of climate change and issues of

5
00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:25,840
Speaker 1: more broadly ecological damage. And specifically we're discussing an emergency

6
00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,840
Speaker 1: declaration that they recently released about the state of the

7
00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,479
Speaker 1: Pacific salmon population. If I'm not mistaken, so I'm going

8
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,240
Speaker 1: to ask each of them to introduce themselves. If you

9
00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,120
Speaker 1: could give us your name and any relevant affiliations that

10
00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:38,919
Speaker 1: you think listeners should know, that would be wonderful.

11
00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:39,960
Speaker 2: Hello.

12
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:45,320
Speaker 3: My name is Kirby Mouldeau. My ancestral name is hopwell Asa.

13
00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:51,920
Speaker 3: I am from the Simsan people in what is now

14
00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:57,880
Speaker 3: known as Northwest British Columbia, Canada. My mother is jim San,

15
00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:04,080
Speaker 3: my father is Gigsan, and I am from wilp we Get,

16
00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,360
Speaker 3: which is the house of the Night Drummer from the

17
00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:08,360
Speaker 3: Fireweed Plan.

18
00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:10,440
Speaker 4: I am also.

19
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,840
Speaker 3: An independent consultant and contractor and I look forward to

20
00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:17,839
Speaker 3: our discussion today.

21
00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:19,360
Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you.

22
00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:25,320
Speaker 5: Hi. I'm Louis Wagner Junior from Metlakatla, Alaska, and I'm

23
00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:31,040
Speaker 5: Taquiddy of the brown Bear Plan from Cape Fox. Sanyu

24
00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:36,800
Speaker 5: Kuan and I have lived in Metla Catla my whole

25
00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:43,160
Speaker 5: life of seventy five years. And we're connected to the

26
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:50,160
Speaker 5: Eunuch River through my grandmother and she was born at

27
00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:55,480
Speaker 5: Cape Fox. And we've been on the Eunuch River ever

28
00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,120
Speaker 5: since I was big enough to go with my older

29
00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:03,720
Speaker 5: brother and so I've been up there since like nineteen

30
00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:10,280
Speaker 5: sixty wow, and my brothers was up to close to

31
00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,560
Speaker 5: twenty years before that. So but our family has always

32
00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:19,040
Speaker 5: been on the Eunich River to harvest. Had the fish

33
00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,079
Speaker 5: camp up there and we'd fish the uligans, bring the

34
00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:29,760
Speaker 5: uligans home to the people, and the catch can sacksmon

35
00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,240
Speaker 5: metal catline. Then people would send them out to the

36
00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:37,280
Speaker 5: West coast. So we're very connected. We go up to

37
00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:42,280
Speaker 5: the Eunich in the spring for uligan and the fall

38
00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,600
Speaker 5: for hunting. Now they used to do the salmon up

39
00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,320
Speaker 5: on the river with the fish camp. I served on

40
00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:54,239
Speaker 5: our community council from two thousand and two about I

41
00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,840
Speaker 5: think twenty fifteen in there, and now i'm their tribal

42
00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:03,440
Speaker 5: right rights representative for the community and I report back

43
00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,600
Speaker 5: to our council after each of our meetings.

44
00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,440
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. And Guy, would you like to

45
00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:11,200
Speaker 1: introduce yourself.

46
00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,720
Speaker 2: Yes, my name is Guy Archibald. I'm the executive director

47
00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:21,079
Speaker 2: of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous trans Boundary Commission. We were

48
00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,880
Speaker 2: formed about nine years ago by a commission of fifteen

49
00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:32,400
Speaker 2: sovereign tribes in Southeast Alaska reacting to a huge amount

50
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,760
Speaker 2: of mind development and further potential mind development going on

51
00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,560
Speaker 2: in the trans boundary watersheds that drain from British Columbia

52
00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,120
Speaker 2: to Alaska. I used to work at the mines. I'm

53
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:51,200
Speaker 2: an environmental chemist by trade. I helped tribes monitor their

54
00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:59,040
Speaker 2: own environments and their food security through science. And yeah,

55
00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,160
Speaker 2: I've looking forward to this discussion as well.

56
00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a fantastic setup for all of you. Thank

57
00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,640
Speaker 1: you very much. So I think we should begin because

58
00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:14,240
Speaker 1: maybe people may have missed the extent and the severity

59
00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,719
Speaker 1: of the emergency with salmon populations, and so perhaps we

60
00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:22,920
Speaker 1: could start out by explaining how it was. It seems

61
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,080
Speaker 1: like Louis you have a lot of experience there, and

62
00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,200
Speaker 1: then what has caused things to be at a situation

63
00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,800
Speaker 1: they're at now. Would that be a good way to

64
00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:32,360
Speaker 1: go about it.

65
00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,720
Speaker 5: Yes, that would be a good way. Where we are

66
00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:41,280
Speaker 5: at now on the salmon is that bruce Jack mine

67
00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,119
Speaker 5: started on the river and none of us knew about

68
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:49,320
Speaker 5: it until way late summers around the mid nineties, nineteen nineties,

69
00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:58,440
Speaker 5: and by by two thousand, especially I'm in the spring

70
00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:04,160
Speaker 5: when we've up there, that ooligans were starting to disappear,

71
00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,560
Speaker 5: and then then the fall of moose hunting, the salmon

72
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:13,080
Speaker 5: were disappearing, and there's a lot less bears and moose

73
00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,760
Speaker 5: now where the river along the river bank would be

74
00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,600
Speaker 5: full of the parts of the fish that bears didn't eat.

75
00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,480
Speaker 5: There'd be so many bears and fish, and now you

76
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,480
Speaker 5: don't smell any of that. But and it's really affected

77
00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:35,080
Speaker 5: the king salmon. They completely disappeared for at least six

78
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,479
Speaker 5: years that my son and I noticed they spawn up

79
00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:44,719
Speaker 5: on the river there, and as we always pay attention,

80
00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,200
Speaker 5: we check on the main spawning stream of Kingsbury where

81
00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,880
Speaker 5: they spawn. And the last three years we've been starting

82
00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,800
Speaker 5: to see some come back, and that bruce Jack mine,

83
00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,160
Speaker 5: which found out later they were put their tailings into

84
00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,360
Speaker 5: a lake up on the mountain there and then you know,

85
00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,320
Speaker 5: as they filled it up and the rain filled it up.

86
00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,560
Speaker 5: The overflow came down into the river, and the river

87
00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,960
Speaker 5: is so shallow, it's only a few inches deep, and

88
00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,800
Speaker 5: it's it's not very wide. It's the smallest river out

89
00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:24,360
Speaker 5: of the stacking and the taku there, and so any

90
00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,359
Speaker 5: pollution in that river will completely kill it off. The

91
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,479
Speaker 5: salmon runs their way down from what we've seen through

92
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,920
Speaker 5: the years. But you know, it's also the wildlife that's

93
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,840
Speaker 5: disappearing with it, because there's the feet, isn't there. They's

94
00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,240
Speaker 5: not the amount of seagulls, a lot less seals and

95
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:48,240
Speaker 5: sea lions. It's effecting on the food chain everything.

96
00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I spent a little bit of time in

97
00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,000
Speaker 1: your part of the world just pack rafting and hiking

98
00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:01,799
Speaker 1: and things, and certainly it's a it's a very beautiful place,

99
00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,159
Speaker 1: but it's very like a fragile one too. As you've

100
00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,880
Speaker 1: explained that these minds can very quickly have this effect

101
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:11,680
Speaker 1: that cascades at the ecosystem. Could you explain a little

102
00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,680
Speaker 1: bit of the role that salmon play not just in

103
00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,000
Speaker 1: the in the provision of food for the for the

104
00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,720
Speaker 1: animal life of the area, but also like the role

105
00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,560
Speaker 1: they play traditionally in provisioning and feeding indigenous people.

106
00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:31,760
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, we you know, we put up as much

107
00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,880
Speaker 5: sockey as we can and then then king salmon and

108
00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,080
Speaker 5: then a lot of it we'll fish and get there

109
00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,720
Speaker 5: in the winter to eat, you know, and just get

110
00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,720
Speaker 5: them fresh because they don't keep as well in the freezer.

111
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,680
Speaker 5: But as indigenous, you could, you know, look in our

112
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,600
Speaker 5: pantry and see we've lived the same life as I

113
00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,360
Speaker 5: grew up with my parents and grandparents. Nothing has changed

114
00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:00,120
Speaker 5: for us. We've taught our children the same way to

115
00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:09,400
Speaker 5: harvest and take care of the fish. Back in the

116
00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:14,400
Speaker 5: fifties when his little kid in Mettle catal Alaska, hardly

117
00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,920
Speaker 5: anyone if they even had a refrigerator. They didn't have freezers,

118
00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,160
Speaker 5: so they had to smoke the fish really hard, and

119
00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,840
Speaker 5: they put them in those things they're like four gallon

120
00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:31,960
Speaker 5: coffee cans too, with newspaper on the bottom and on top.

121
00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:36,640
Speaker 5: Then they would keep through the winter, they wouldn't wouldn't

122
00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,760
Speaker 5: get moldy. So that was their the main staple for

123
00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,080
Speaker 5: the for the whole year.

124
00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,240
Speaker 1: Is it a situation now that like people just can't

125
00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,160
Speaker 1: rely on salmon as a staple food because of the

126
00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,040
Speaker 1: mining tailings, reducing the population.

127
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, without any hardly any king salmon coming in. There's

128
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,200
Speaker 5: you know, a few from the hatchery out there, but

129
00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:04,480
Speaker 5: they even in Kitchkan they've closed the king salmon derby

130
00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,080
Speaker 5: for I think it's into its fourth year now. So

131
00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:16,960
Speaker 5: it's just that that other big mine goes in the

132
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,240
Speaker 5: river will be destroyed and it's going to flow all

133
00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,959
Speaker 5: the way out into into the ocean here into Clarence

134
00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,319
Speaker 5: Streets and Dickson Entrance. There has been no avoiding it.

135
00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,680
Speaker 5: It's got nowhere else to go with comes straight out

136
00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,360
Speaker 5: to the West Beam Canal and then East Beam Canal.

137
00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:35,400
Speaker 4: KEB.

138
00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,120
Speaker 1: I know you're not quite in exactly the same place,

139
00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,960
Speaker 1: but can you explain the situation with the salmon population

140
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:42,640
Speaker 1: where you are?

141
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe I'll give a little more context to that.

142
00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,120
Speaker 3: I live in Northern British Columbia, Northwest British Columbia on

143
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:55,440
Speaker 3: the on the in the Skin of River watershed, and

144
00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,800
Speaker 3: over the past uh, probably thirty or four years, we've

145
00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:08,600
Speaker 3: seen an extreme decline in salmon uh, specifically sakei uh

146
00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,640
Speaker 3: and king salmon as you guys call it. We call

147
00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:16,000
Speaker 3: them spring salmon over here. But we've seen an extreme

148
00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:23,120
Speaker 3: decline in returns. And you know, we've we've stopped a

149
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:28,320
Speaker 3: lot of our commercial fisheries and our food fisheries until

150
00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:34,200
Speaker 3: which time we feel that the the returns are sufficient

151
00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,800
Speaker 3: enough so that we can continue to harvest. So we've

152
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,600
Speaker 3: got the Taii Test Fishery at the mouth of the Schena,

153
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:48,200
Speaker 3: and they they do a count every year throughout starting

154
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:53,400
Speaker 3: in the spring and throughout most of the summer, they

155
00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,600
Speaker 3: do a test fishery and they estimate the amount of

156
00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:02,959
Speaker 3: salmon that are returning. And we do not fish, as

157
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,200
Speaker 3: I said, commercially or for food until we feel that

158
00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,080
Speaker 3: the numbers are sufficient that have gone past that fishery.

159
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:17,320
Speaker 3: There are many obstacles that face salmon today, most of

160
00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:25,400
Speaker 3: which are a result of human activity logging, mining, commercial fishing,

161
00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,040
Speaker 3: oil and gas. And we all have to take a

162
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,400
Speaker 3: little bit of responsibility for that because we all enjoy

163
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:38,040
Speaker 3: those resources and we use them. And I've always said

164
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,880
Speaker 3: to people that we can't mine our way out of

165
00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:47,160
Speaker 3: this global warming and climate change. We have to learn

166
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:53,080
Speaker 3: how to we have to learn how to use less.

167
00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:59,320
Speaker 3: And as I said, you know, mining, obviously it's a

168
00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,559
Speaker 3: big concern, but there's also logging, there's oil and gas

169
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,959
Speaker 3: as well as commercial fishery. You know, there's a lot

170
00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,400
Speaker 3: of things that happen out in open waters in the

171
00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,440
Speaker 3: North Pacific that can be changed fairly easily.

172
00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,960
Speaker 4: You know, they there's a fishery right now.

173
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:31,440
Speaker 3: I believe it's an area one oh four, a fishery

174
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,160
Speaker 3: that is targeting.

175
00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:35,080
Speaker 4: Pink salmon.

176
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:42,160
Speaker 3: But by our estimations and by estimations from Alaska fisheries,

177
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:48,040
Speaker 3: they are the bycatch for Skina salmon. Skina sakey salmon

178
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,400
Speaker 3: that are returning to the Skina is about four hundred

179
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,199
Speaker 3: and seventy thousand. Now, these are sakey that are a bycatch.

180
00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,480
Speaker 3: We're not asking this fishery to stop. We're asking this

181
00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,680
Speaker 3: fishery to be more of a terminus fishery, which means

182
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:08,240
Speaker 3: that they better target the pink salmon. So right now

183
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:13,560
Speaker 3: they're fishing in open waters approximately half the fleet. From

184
00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,079
Speaker 3: what I understand, we're not asking this fishery to stop.

185
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:23,720
Speaker 3: 're asking them to move inside so that skin and

186
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:30,400
Speaker 3: sockeye can go past this fishery. And right now we

187
00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,839
Speaker 3: are just barely making our escapement every year that make

188
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,920
Speaker 3: it up into the headwaters where they can spawn. And

189
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,720
Speaker 3: so you know there's a lot of different ways we

190
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:51,600
Speaker 3: can address the issue of salmon declining in numbers. There's

191
00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:53,840
Speaker 3: some low hanging fruit, there's a lot of other things

192
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,199
Speaker 3: that are going to take a lot of time to enforce.

193
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,520
Speaker 3: I'm hoping as transboundary nations, we can come together to

194
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:08,320
Speaker 3: work towards making sure that salmon have a fighting chance.

195
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:14,200
Speaker 3: Salmon are very resilient. They are keystone species, and they're

196
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,080
Speaker 3: a good indicator of the health of the environment and

197
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:20,680
Speaker 3: surrounding areas as well as the water.

198
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's an excellent summary. Thank you. And

199
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,240
Speaker 1: preps guy, you have a little bit more experience on

200
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,960
Speaker 1: the industrial side of thing, I guess can you explain

201
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,360
Speaker 1: how it is that on the face fit because Louis

202
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,240
Speaker 1: was saying the tribal nations weren't aware that this mine

203
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 1: in one case or these certainly like these other practices, right,

204
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,200
Speaker 1: some of which are sort of very nebulous, like global warming,

205
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,440
Speaker 1: others which are specific like this socce bycatch and the

206
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:54,000
Speaker 1: forestry with the nations in question here, like the people

207
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,160
Speaker 1: who's ancestral and current homelands this is happening on not

208
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,960
Speaker 1: consulted or was there insufficient extpert of the consequences when

209
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,280
Speaker 1: these with these minds and forestry operations were opened.

210
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,560
Speaker 2: Certainly especially early on, you know, to this day and

211
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,160
Speaker 2: to this day, the right of free entry, which means

212
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 2: somebody could be sitting pretty much anywhere in the world

213
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,920
Speaker 2: get on the internet and claim a mine claim without

214
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,600
Speaker 2: any kind of notification to the landowner or surface owner

215
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,720
Speaker 2: by swiping a credit card. So, uh, there's no even

216
00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:33,680
Speaker 2: requirement for notification on that. And you know, early on,

217
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:39,120
Speaker 2: the mining companies, you know, they do a investor presentation.

218
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,680
Speaker 2: Here's that they're doing in Las Vegas and New York

219
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,720
Speaker 2: and this and that, and then they attempt to come

220
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:50,440
Speaker 2: into the communities with that presentation. And what they might

221
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:57,480
Speaker 2: call meaningful engagement is actually one it's completely one sided.

222
00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,200
Speaker 2: It's not respectful of the process within that tribe or

223
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:09,040
Speaker 2: that community, and it's completely tone deaf. And so what engagement,

224
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:15,800
Speaker 2: what consultation does happen, is incredibly inadequate. To make matters worse,

225
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:21,080
Speaker 2: the South, the Alaskan tribes are landless communities. We don't

226
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:26,480
Speaker 2: have jurisdiction over a land area. And great work is

227
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,600
Speaker 2: being done, though we're not starting from zero here. First

228
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:35,040
Speaker 2: nations out on the land through landguardian programs and more

229
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,640
Speaker 2: doing great work Southeast tribes monitoring, you know, their ecosystems

230
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,680
Speaker 2: and food security and fish consumption and all that great

231
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:51,800
Speaker 2: science and information. But we do need to incorporate one.

232
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,600
Speaker 2: We need to recognize that we can't manage a complex

233
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 2: organism such as a watershed by dividing it down the

234
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,359
Speaker 2: middle under two different jurisdictions. We have to I don't

235
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,400
Speaker 2: say move the border, we basically have to erase it,

236
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,720
Speaker 2: and we need to treat that ecosystem as a whole.

237
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:20,080
Speaker 2: Climate change is having a huge impact. The chinook or

238
00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,840
Speaker 2: the king salmon or the spring salmon, they're the largest,

239
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,280
Speaker 2: so they have the largest egg, they have the less

240
00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,520
Speaker 2: surface area and the environment to absorb oxygen, so they're

241
00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,880
Speaker 2: kind of an indicator of the first you have a problem,

242
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,159
Speaker 2: you're kind of red flag going up, you know, in

243
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:41,640
Speaker 2: your network, complex ecosystem and both Caribbean right, we're right,

244
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,199
Speaker 2: it's the crash of the entire network that we're seeing.

245
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,879
Speaker 2: Salmon is just an indicator of that. But we're seeing

246
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,720
Speaker 2: it across the board and it's unfortunate because here, especially

247
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,520
Speaker 2: right now in Southeast Alaska. I live in Juno, Alaska,

248
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,639
Speaker 2: prior to European contact, there was probably five times the

249
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,520
Speaker 2: population living here than there is now. You look at

250
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,600
Speaker 2: maps of the old village there everywhere, and they've been

251
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,199
Speaker 2: there for tens of thousands of years. They managed to

252
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,760
Speaker 2: do it sustainably, do it with bounce, do it with

253
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:22,040
Speaker 2: effective You don't really call it in management, but in

254
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:27,280
Speaker 2: engagement with nature. And so here we are kind of

255
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,399
Speaker 2: on the front lines of it. And strangely enough, we

256
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:35,640
Speaker 2: have the solution and people who have within their oral

257
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:40,639
Speaker 2: history the stories of migrating due to climate change, of

258
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,119
Speaker 2: adjusting their life due to climate change. It's in the

259
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 2: history or you know, the current oral history. And so

260
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,879
Speaker 2: when we're looking when we say unify here, there's a

261
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 2: great voice and indigenous people too if there is. And

262
00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,880
Speaker 2: it's hard to justify with mining, I'm just going to say,

263
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:05,000
Speaker 2: because it's an inherently extractive down to the last profitable

264
00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:10,560
Speaker 2: dollar industry. It's not sustainable. It's it's reducible constantly as

265
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:18,480
Speaker 2: it operates, and now it's being used to justify climate change.

266
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,600
Speaker 2: Adjusting to climate change is now being used to justify

267
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:26,240
Speaker 2: more mining, which again, as usual, is going to fall

268
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 2: on the backs of the local people. And communities and

269
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 2: indigenous people.

270
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's shocking. Similar to issues that we see where

271
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,720
Speaker 1: I live, which is at the other end of the

272
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 1: United States and on the southern border, where the Colorado

273
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,040
Speaker 1: River is a binational river, right, which is managed by

274
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,800
Speaker 1: two countries kind of in aggressive competition. And we're seeing

275
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,880
Speaker 1: the same thing here, just a different states. Yes, yeah,

276
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,280
Speaker 1: different states, yes, yeah, and all of them have competing

277
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,200
Speaker 1: I was rafting the Colorado River last year, and I've

278
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 1: paddled the Colorado River. But they change in that river

279
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,399
Speaker 1: ecosystem that I've seen, and I've only lived in the

280
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,399
Speaker 1: US for fifteen years. It's remarkable and I can't imagine

281
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,720
Speaker 1: what it's like over seventy five years. And the same

282
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,520
Speaker 1: thing with mining. Actually we're seeing the justification of very

283
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 1: damaging lithium mining rights and then being told that this

284
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,399
Speaker 1: is a solution to climate change and whilst also destroying

285
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 1: these ecosystems. If people think it's just an issue that

286
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 1: affects one group of people in one group of the

287
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 1: part of the world, it's not. It's very universal. And

288
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 1: that's just in the United States. We see the same

289
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,200
Speaker 1: thing places I've traveled for work in East Africa and

290
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:51,720
Speaker 1: in South America. I wonder then if we could talk

291
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,639
Speaker 1: about the value of accepting indigenous leadership when it comes

292
00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,399
Speaker 1: to addressing I think we began addressing that and guys

293
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,000
Speaker 1: come up very well. But perhaps one thing we could

294
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 1: talk about when we talk about that is I think

295
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:13,119
Speaker 1: when people think about specifically British Columbia and Alaska, they

296
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 1: the people will use the term like frontier or wilderness

297
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,400
Speaker 1: a lot, right, which erases the fact that, as Guy

298
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 1: mentioned and both of you have shared with us, that

299
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 1: people have been living there for tens of thousands of

300
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,680
Speaker 1: years in a way that was sustainable, right, Like, these

301
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 1: weren't places without human beings. It wasn't empty land, and

302
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 1: it was just land that wasn't inhabited by people of

303
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:43,679
Speaker 1: European ancestry. And so when we talk about how to

304
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 1: go forward with this land, why it's important to listen

305
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,680
Speaker 1: to the people who have always been there, It said,

306
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 1: a good framework.

307
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 5: All we have is our stories and how we grew

308
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,919
Speaker 5: up with the old folks, and we're lucky to have

309
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,360
Speaker 5: a rowboat and pair oars. Back in back in the fifties,

310
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 5: still late fifties, some of the people started being able

311
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 5: to get a little three horse Johnson something like that,

312
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 5: and that was a lot of power. But we also

313
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 5: the glaciers have melted away up on the Unich River there,

314
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 5: so that really affects affecting the amount of water flowing.

315
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,360
Speaker 5: The level of the water very important to a lot

316
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 5: of us yet to live live the way of life

317
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 5: that we've always lived. Yeah, all the testimony that I

318
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 5: have done as not serious because I don't have a

319
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 5: college education like that. It's just that's that's what they want.

320
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 5: I mean, the people they learn it from school books now,

321
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 5: but they've never lived a life and been on all

322
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 5: these different areas the beaches, you know, and we have

323
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,640
Speaker 5: all our seasons. Every season you have something to look

324
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 5: forward to it right after I'll start with the spring

325
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 5: on the Ooligans and and then seaweed and King salmone

326
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 5: is a big big thing to go after. And then

327
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 5: we have you know, the summer and then then to fall. Yeah.

328
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 5: Also we have the greens called asparagus. While asparagus or

329
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:35,719
Speaker 5: or harvesting all the time we our our children that

330
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 5: we've we have they all know how to do it

331
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 5: where to go. So we've been continued doing in our

332
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 5: teaching on our our side we're just they don't want

333
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 5: to take us serious, I guess anyway. So I've been,

334
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 5: you know, been do a lot of meetings and talked

335
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 5: about a lot of the stuff here, and it's just

336
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 5: it's going to be a shame if we just keep

337
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 5: losing everything. We're getting very close salmon and I are

338
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 5: getting a lot less and commercial fishing in my whole life.

339
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 5: And then later as the kids got older, we went

340
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 5: into tenderings. We just had family aboard, and you know,

341
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 5: we would get loads after loads through the seventies into

342
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 5: the eighties, in nineties, and then pretty soon you could

343
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 5: see the Sainters are coming in with less and less

344
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 5: fish and just Ulligan alone. And been fifteen years up

345
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 5: there for the Oligan in the spring and get out

346
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:44,919
Speaker 5: of school for a little while and to go up

347
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 5: the river ours from metal like Catalan, Alaska to up

348
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 5: to the Unique River a little over one hundred miles,

349
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 5: so we have a two hundred mile round trip to

350
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 5: get up there and back, and there's no safe harbor there.

351
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 5: It's wide open to the weather. So you have to

352
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 5: really best to learn from somebody who's been up there

353
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 5: a few times, and you know they know where you

354
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 5: can maybe duck out of for a safe spot and

355
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 5: easy to get hurt on the river because they're so shallow. Yeah,

356
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 5: we lost the fifteen years on the river, that's what

357
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 5: it was, due to weak runs and they disappeared for

358
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 5: a while. They were going up to other streams to

359
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 5: get clean water, even on like I'll reveal a good

360
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 5: gato on Ketchgan Island. They went up there one year

361
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 5: and there was a really good run. But then they'll

362
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,479
Speaker 5: go through Beam Canal and the other streams when they

363
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 5: have to. Oligan are pretty smart. They don't have to

364
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 5: go back to the same river all the time. We'd

365
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 5: have to go through the canal and check the other

366
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 5: places where they might go up. But with the salmon,

367
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 5: they need that clean river because they won't go up

368
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 5: any other river. And their numbers really really have dropped.

369
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 5: Used to see king salmon, you know, probably as far

370
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 5: as I could reach, which is about six feet and

371
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 5: spawners in the river, and three years ago they were

372
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 5: maybe long as one arm. I couldn't find any real

373
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 5: big ones in there. But it was good to see

374
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 5: some of them coming back. But that won't last longer.

375
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 5: Things continue to go their way.

376
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: They are Yeah, it's very sad to hear it like this. Yeah,

377
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: this these changes you've seen, I suppose so preps you

378
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: could explain to us, like this emergency declaration that's been made, right,

379
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 1: and we've heard Louis explained very eloquently how I had this,

380
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: how he's seen this decay over his life, and how

381
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: can like accepting this leadership right, there's this emergency that

382
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: that's been declared. I guess, like it is it possible?

383
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: You said Simon were very resilient, and Tod the Oarligan

384
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: were very smart. Can things return to the way they work?

385
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: Can we at least stop things getting worse?

386
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: And how Yeah?

387
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 3: You know, I think our relationship with the environment is broken.

388
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 3: I'm a communications specialist, That's that's what I do. So

389
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 3: I am all about relationships. Now when I talk about relationships,

390
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 3: I'm just I'm not talking just about relationships with our

391
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 3: fellow human beings, but I'm talking about relationships with.

392
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 4: The land, the water, the air. And I like.

393
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 3: To for people. I always tell people, you know, when

394
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: you're in a relationship with a significant other or or

395
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 3: a pet. You know a lot of people have pets.

396
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: It's it's a reciprocal relationship. There's a lot of give

397
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 3: and take, and and there's a lot of compromise.

398
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 4: And as as.

399
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 3: A young boy and growing up in in Gigxan Territory

400
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 3: and in Jimsand Territory, I was always taught that you

401
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 3: only took what you needed, and you didn't you didn't

402
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 3: take anymore, and you respected all living things. You know,

403
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 3: I don't mean to pick on anybody, but sport fishing

404
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: is against our laws. You know, we don't play with fish.

405
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 3: It's it's it's just something we do not do. And

406
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 3: and when I'm talking about our relationship with with all

407
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 3: living things, uh, you know, the land, the water, the swimmers,

408
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 3: the two leg at, the four lang, the ones fly,

409
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 3: our relationship with them is broken.

410
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 4: You know, we used to harvest a lot more than

411
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 4: we do now.

412
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 3: You know, in the skin of watershed, you know, we

413
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 3: used to harvest seals. We used to harvest you know,

414
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 3: a lot more things other than just salmon. And what

415
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 3: we've done over the last fifty or so years has

416
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 3: put so much pressure on salmon that they just can't

417
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 3: sustain it.

418
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 4: You know.

419
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: You know, I might not be very popular for saying this,

420
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 3: but you know, we used to eat a lot more seals,

421
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 3: and I think we should commercialize a seal hunt and

422
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: sell those products so that people can make money and

423
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 3: people can be fed. I'm not blaming the seals for

424
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 3: the decline in salmon. There's a lot of factors at

425
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 3: play when it comes to the decline in salmon. But

426
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 3: what I'm trying to explain is that our relationship with

427
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 3: the environment is broken and we need to fix it,

428
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 3: and it's out of balance right now, and we need

429
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 3: to bring it back to balance, and we just need

430
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 3: to consume less.

431
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: Certainly. Yeah, and does that I'm curious that that sort

432
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: of like heavy emphasis on salmon is that because it

433
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: was very commercial, so people would be able to harvest

434
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: just as salmon and sell it as opposed to harvesting

435
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: these other animals that they were harvesting before.

436
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 4: I think I think salmon were very plentiful, right.

437
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 3: You know, you hear stories about when when the Europeans

438
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 3: first arrived, you know, they could I've heard stories of them,

439
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 3: you know, putting a bucket into the water and pulling

440
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 3: the bucket out and it would be just full of salmon.

441
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 4: Right, So I thought I think.

442
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 3: That you know, there there was a mentality that you know,

443
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: the resource was infinite, right, it would last forever.

444
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 4: I think that was the mentality.

445
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 3: And so they just harvested it, harvested as much as

446
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 3: they could, as fast as they could, and centered around

447
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 3: the world.

448
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 4: And you know, if any of your.

449
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: Listeners haven't tasted salmon, it's it's one of the most

450
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 3: flavorful things you've ever you will ever taste. And it's

451
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 3: it's the best meat in the world on the planet

452
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 3: for you in terms of nutrients and and such. And

453
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's totally natural, and yeah, it's just

454
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 3: all around good for the environment.

455
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 4: You know.

456
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 3: It feeds the birds, the two legs, the four legs.

457
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: It even feeds plants, you know, and it's it's so resilient.

458
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 3: And we just need to give salmon a chance and

459
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 3: figure out a way forward where we can have a

460
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 3: reciprocal relationship with salmon and the environment.

461
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and preps, like are their concrete steps? Like a

462
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: lot of our listeners are not in the areas where

463
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: you are, but they could be all over the world, right,

464
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: But are there things they could do to show solidarity,

465
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: to give you support? How can they help?

466
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 2: Well, I would encourage encourage everybody to you know, visit

467
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 2: our website and and kind of understand what we see

468
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: as a pathway forward for remedying this. You know, it's

469
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: it's you shouldn't come to the table to complain about

470
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 2: a problem unless you have a remedy proposed here and

471
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: and that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to

472
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: take that knowledge that it is in you know, Louis

473
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: and just in the Unich and the knowledge in every

474
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: little stream, even the knowledge within the genetics, that fine

475
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: grain of every salmon that goes up every little stream,

476
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 2: and get that incorporated into you know, the uh, you know,

477
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 2: into an engagement process that ultimately, the way we've been

478
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 2: doing it is a failed experiment. We can call that

479
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 2: now because these methods we put in to try to

480
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: protect wild salmon, we've seen nothing wild salmon decline. You

481
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: asked if salmon are resilient. They very much are. They

482
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: very much are resilient. There's reason there's five species of

483
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: salmon here is because of all the upheaval, seismic upheaval

484
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 2: living on the Pacific rim. They're very resilient to the

485
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: occasional large impact. Just like you and me, though, were

486
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: very unresilient to constant pressure and stress. You know what

487
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 2: it does to your digestive system, nervous system, everything, your

488
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: family life. It's the same for these ecosystems. It's not

489
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 2: the occasional huge impact, it's the continuous stress. And this

490
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 2: area was not it's not really pristine. It was highly

491
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 2: modified by the people. They inactively engaged with their environment.

492
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: They enhanced salmon streams and resting pools, They built clam gardens,

493
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: they move trees and vegetation around, you know, enhanced beaches,

494
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 2: and it was very active. And we can incorporate that

495
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: knowledge into how we move forward on a lot of

496
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: these things, and we need to do that.

497
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

498
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 3: Well, when people ask me what they can do, I

499
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 3: respond by saying, what you can do is change your habits. Now,

500
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 3: a lot of people think that this climate change problem,

501
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 3: resource extraction, et cetera is too big for us to tackle, but.

502
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 4: Actually it's not.

503
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 3: You know, if we all do a little bit and

504
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 3: just change our habits, we can make huge change.

505
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 4: You know, I always think.

506
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 3: About you know, in British Columbia and in Canada, gosh

507
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 3: about you know, forty years ago they brought in a

508
00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 3: law stating that everybody had to wear seat belts. There

509
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 3: was huge backlash. Nobody wanted to wear a seat belt.

510
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 3: They weren't used to it, right, But after a while,

511
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 3: you know, nobody, nobody even bothered to complain about it.

512
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,240
Speaker 3: We just do it whenever I get into my vehicle.

513
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 3: Now it's second nature to put my seat belt on.

514
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 3: I don't even think about it. It's done. Now, if

515
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 3: we can all just look at some of the habits

516
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:29,280
Speaker 3: that we have, whether it's you know, using too much water,

517
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 3: maybe some wasteful practices, you know, driving when we don't

518
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 3: need to drive. Maybe maybe we can walk a little

519
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 3: more often, and maybe we can bike a little more often.

520
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 4: Just really look at what.

521
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 3: Actions you're taking daily that may be contributing to climate

522
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 3: change and global warming, and try to change one habit.

523
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,439
Speaker 3: And when you've got that habit, change change another one.

524
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 3: And you know, I think over time we can we

525
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 3: can fix this. But it's going to take a concerned

526
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 3: effort by everybody on this planet, and more so by

527
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 3: some of us who are a little more privileged I guess,

528
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 3: to be able to change our habits.

529
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: Thanks, yeah, I think that was very very well said.

530
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: And do you have anything to add Louis.

531
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I appreciate what Kirby said earlier on. We're connected

532
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 5: to the land h and everybody's grandmother was your grandmother

533
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 5: when I was growing up. As long as you were,

534
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 5: you know, you paid attention and you would help. I

535
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 5: remember when in the fish camp, grandmother brought my friend

536
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 5: and myself into the smokehouse and they had they had

537
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 5: a fish that was just put in, the salmon that

538
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 5: was in the middle, and the finished salmon that was

539
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 5: ready to come out on the end. And you know,

540
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 5: they would only tell you once. They said, you can

541
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 5: eat all you want, but if you waste one piece,

542
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 5: you were never welcomed in the smokehouses again. So they

543
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 5: didn't waste time. And they told it would tell the

544
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 5: children when they get too loud, your children are to

545
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 5: be seen but not heard, And just like that, they

546
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 5: never stopped teaching. It was I wish I could remember

547
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 5: more from a long time ago, but I was lucky

548
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 5: that they treated. You know, whatever friend I had there,

549
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 5: their grandparents were were mine that just learned how to

550
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 5: get bark off the cedar tree, and so you don't

551
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 5: kill the cedar tree. From my friend's grandmother. I never

552
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 5: forgotten when my wife wanted to go out and get

553
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 5: get some.

554
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 4: Bark.

555
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 5: She was surprised. I told her I know how to

556
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 5: do it, and so we would. We went out and

557
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 5: got it. Just things like that, is were just trying

558
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 5: not to leave a footprint when when we left, or

559
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 5: insights there any camp areas. Oh, I just wanted to

560
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 5: add that, thank.

561
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 4: You, thank you.

562
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: It's very insightful. So talking of leaving a footprint, I

563
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: think preaps. The last thing I want to talk about

564
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: is mind tailings and and the way that because of

565
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: some of these minds. So there are some I guess

566
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: minds that people want to build, and there's some minds

567
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 1: of people have already built. Right about I was reading

568
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: on your website about tailing dam and what that is

569
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: and what that does and what that might mean for

570
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,720
Speaker 1: protecting the ecosystem. So can you explain what a tailing

571
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: stam is and what a tailing stamp failure is?

572
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 5: Just what I learned a little bit on a meeting

573
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 5: up in Anchorage on the form on the Alaska Environment,

574
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 5: and they had scientists there that we're speaking and this

575
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 5: is a few years ago now, and they talked about

576
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 5: every mind that's in place is poisoning the rivers to

577
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 5: this state, and it will always poison because it doesn't

578
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 5: stop bleeding out of there wherever they were mining. That

579
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 5: was very interesting, and they had just started to do

580
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 5: some water sampling and we were trying to do that,

581
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 5: and this year we were finally able to do something

582
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 5: with that. We got to start with this guy there

583
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 5: and looking forward to get water samples come fall at

584
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 5: moose hunting time and we'll have to see how many

585
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 5: he would like to have this time. I just know, no,

586
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 5: it's not good. It's poisonous. The water used to be

587
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 5: that beautiful bluish glacier water coming down through the river

588
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 5: there and not seeing that anymore. So I want to

589
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 5: get first water for coffee. I'll go to the side

590
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 5: mountain where I know it's clean and come and coming

591
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 5: off the mountain. Things like that we have to watch out.

592
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 2: For, you know, specifically to a tailings damn. That's just

593
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 2: the containment structure for a tailings dump. They may collumns

594
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 2: tailings disposal facilities or storage facilities, but they're never coming

595
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 2: back for them. It's it's a dump. It's permitted, just

596
00:40:55,560 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 2: as any municipal landfill would be British Columbia tends to

597
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 2: use what they call some aqueous tailings disposable. They need

598
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 2: to keep oxygen from the tailings because otherwise they're going

599
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: to oxidize, They're going to create acid mind drainage, dissolve

600
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 2: all of these heavy metals into the salmon streams and

601
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: basically a large risk, a large threat. We live in

602
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: a rainforest, so that water bounce is very critical and

603
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 2: it's almost impossible to do in a time of climate change.

604
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 2: They're wanting to maintain three meters of water on top

605
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 2: of these tailings in perpetituity. I mean, at what point

606
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 2: in perpetituity does any certainty of your predictions completely break down?

607
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 2: And they require massive amounts of water treatment. And it's

608
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: not just the tailings, it's the waste rock, and in

609
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 2: Louis's Unich River it's not just the Bruce Jack. But

610
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: now they're permitting the Escape Creek an open pit, and

611
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 2: already permitted but not yet built, is the KSM, which

612
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 2: would be one of the top five largest open pits

613
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: in the world on a small water shed with incredibly

614
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: low hardness of water, meaning it cannot absorb any kind

615
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 2: of change of pH or acid and is home to,

616
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 2: you know, the spawning and rearing grounds and genetic diversity

617
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: of Pacific salmon. And in the long run, the only

618
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 2: way we're going to keep salmon from extinction as well,

619
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: as Kirby says, kind of help, you know, change our

620
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 2: attitude with this world. But we have to maintain that

621
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 2: genetic diversity that's spawn in all of those little tiny

622
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: streams throughout the coast and far into British Columbia. We

623
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 2: need that genetic diversity. Salmon are incredibly resilient, but we

624
00:42:54,520 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: also can't you know, completely ignore our part and disrupt

625
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 2: the natural cycles here, and as they pointed out, they

626
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 2: are incredibly disruptive. I did you want to say that,

627
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 2: you know, Louis mentioned how they're not listening. He's not

628
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 2: listened to, and that story can be multiplied in every

629
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 2: community and tribe throughout the Pacific Northwest and probably the

630
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 2: entire United States about the world. But that's what we're

631
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 2: trying to remedy here, trying to let's all get together.

632
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,240
Speaker 2: Let's ignore that border. We find out in these meetings

633
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 2: like our summit, that were actually related, some of us

634
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 2: were related to one another, and look at this in

635
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 2: the big picture, holistic way. You have to look at

636
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 2: big things like climate change and natural ecosystems and complex

637
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 2: mining that just gets bigger and bigger just due to

638
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: economy of scale. They mine the good stuff a long

639
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 2: time ago. They took the chocolate chips out of the

640
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 2: chop go cheb guckie. Now they're going after the baking soda,

641
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: and that creates exponential moral waste.

642
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: Right yeah, because there's less of the stuff they're looking

643
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: for and more of the waste.

644
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: Wow.

645
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

646
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 1: I've certainly spent some time around some abandoned mines in Alaska,

647
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: and it's it's wild to see this massive intrusion and

648
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: then abandonment and just sort of complete sort of obligation

649
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 1: of the responsibility for the damage that it's done.

650
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: I look at the climax lived of a mine in Leadville, Colorado.

651
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 2: It's a good example.

652
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: Been there too, Yeah, maybe you've seen that. I've raced

653
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 1: my bike up there a couple of times.

654
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:38,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

655
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 1: It has to work there, Oh well okay, yeah, yeah, Wow,

656
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: that is a and the impact that it's had on

657
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: that town of the mining, it's all it's a process

658
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: that hurts almost everyone above from the people who owned

659
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 1: mining companies right, like, it doesn't benefit as many as

660
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: many people as it in the long run, it hurts.

661
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 2: I think you're going towards benefits, and there there should

662
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 2: be equitable benefits. But the benefit, the first cut of

663
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 2: the pie is the environment itself. They have. It not

664
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 2: only has to just be maintained and sustained, it has

665
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 2: to actually benefit at this point if we're going to

666
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: avoid large scale collapse and uh. But there's ways of

667
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: doing that, and part of that is giving Indigenous people

668
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 2: a strong save consent the new laws. You know, Canada

669
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: ratified the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People.

670
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 2: BC has implemented that through the Declaration on the Rights

671
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: of People's Act. They're supposed to respect, you know, these

672
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 2: traditional territories. Regardless of the land status of Alaska tribes,

673
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: they certainly have an obligation to respect the First Nations

674
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: and the unseeded territories of the First Nation people in

675
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 2: British Columbia, that's clear by law, and the Supreme Courts

676
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 2: have expanded it to people that no longer live in

677
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 2: Alaska if they still have that direct connection to their

678
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 2: traditional territories within I'm sorry British Columbia. And so we're

679
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 2: going to use that to make sure that Louis and

680
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 2: everybody is heard and get that knowledge as part of

681
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 2: and not just the knowledge, but the act of participation.

682
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 2: That's part of the benefit sharing if indeed anything happens.

683
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,879
Speaker 2: But at this point, we just need so much more

684
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: restoration before we damage it further, quite.

685
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, of course, So you spoke about this large

686
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: open pit mind and it's something people can do if

687
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: they want to. I'm guessing it would be optimal for

688
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: them not to open another massive open pit mind. It

689
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: is something people could do to help maybe make that

690
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 1: a process that, you know, where Indigenous people listen to

691
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: and not just mining interests.

692
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 2: This indeed is for me and I'll be quit I think,

693
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: you know, unfortunately, the engaging with the process, with the

694
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 2: recognition that the process is broken, but engaging it to

695
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 2: the maximum extent you can to try to get your

696
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 2: word out there and influence decision makers. You got to

697
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 2: at least do that. Yeah, I'm sure Herbie has stood

698
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: the lines out there in British Columbia. I'm sure you

699
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 2: can speak to it.

700
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 3: Please do Yeah, you know, if you're if you or

701
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 3: your listeners haven't heard of the term indigenous science. I

702
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 3: would like to introduce that indigenous science is a distinct,

703
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 3: time tested and methodological knowledge system that can enhance and

704
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 3: complement Western science. Now I've introduced this many times. It's

705
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 3: by no means did I invent this at all, but

706
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 3: I've been introduced to it about a year ago and

707
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 3: I've been using it a lot.

708
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 4: Now.

709
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 3: In many instances, indigenous science is thousands of years old,

710
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 3: whereas Western science. In some areas such as British Columbia, Canada,

711
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 3: where we've only you know, been in contact with European

712
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 3: settlers for just over five hundred years, Indigenous science is

713
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 3: much much older. It's as I said earlier, it's it's

714
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:38,879
Speaker 3: time tested and the knowledge is immense. And you know

715
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 3: that alone should give a lot of credence to to

716
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 3: the knowledge and the science of indigenous peoples.

717
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's an excellent consideration. And we had

718
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: an episode this week at you we spoke about indigenous

719
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: medical technologies, and I think it's important to recognize these

720
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 1: things are on a par with like European Western technology

721
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: medical technologies right as opposed to be different from, but

722
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 1: have them on the same level, and the same with

723
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: the science that you make Sued. I think that's an

724
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: excellent point too.

725
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 2: I have to chime in because I had that point

726
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: of view. Sometimes I have to laugh because what is

727
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 2: at least sixty five percent of all pharmaceuticals are derived

728
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 2: from natural plants that the indigenous people and full knowledge

729
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 2: for a long time that information wasn't necessarily transferred in

730
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 2: the nicest manner often, so I need to acknowledge that.

731
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, every time we take an aspirin, we're benefiting

732
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: from indigenous science, right, Indigenous medical technologies.

733
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and those technologies are incredible. A helibate hook is

734
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,399
Speaker 2: just a prime example. It's it's an incredible study in

735
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 2: the morphology of the mouth of a helibate, the habits

736
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 2: of a helibate, and they can design the hook to

737
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 2: target very specifically the size of the helibate, so they're

738
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 2: not getting the big breeders and this and that, and

739
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:14,760
Speaker 2: just the amount of observation, adjustment engineering that goes into

740
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 2: a helibut because in itself very credible. The Western people

741
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 2: when they moved in on the at least here on

742
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 2: the coast, they looked at the way the clink at

743
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 2: height and Shimshei and people were harvesting fish with beach

744
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 2: traps and beach nets and whatnot, and they copied that

745
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 2: fish wheels and they copied that technology, but then they

746
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: took it to the massive extreme and just took everything

747
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 2: out of the rivers. But they used indigenous technology to

748
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 2: do it, ironically enough, so we can turn that around,

749
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 2: you know, we can use that technology to turn this around.

750
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 2: And there's no reason why we shouldn't.

751
00:50:59,760 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 5: Point.

752
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: Is there anything you each would like to leave our

753
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: listeners with, maybe a place they can find you online,

754
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 1: a way they can show support and something like that.

755
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 5: A little bit that I didn't mention those. I'm also

756
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 5: I'm Simpson and Clinkett my grandfather and great grandfather. It

757
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 5: came from Hartley Bay when Mettle Catla was built by

758
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 5: them and eighteen eighty seven, I believe and their boat

759
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 5: builders that they sold their rowboats up and down the coast.

760
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 5: But yeah, I couldn't spend enough time with my grandfather.

761
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 5: He was going to just you never stopped learning from

762
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 5: all of our elders. I just wanted to throw that

763
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 5: in there.

764
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you so much. How about you, Kevy,

765
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 1: anything you'd like to leave people with I just.

766
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 3: Wanted to leave people with this thought. You know, as

767
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 3: I said earlier, look at the habit that you can change.

768
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 3: That are the low hanging fruit. And I'd also like

769
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 3: them to, you know, think about how they can change.

770
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 3: Think about holding your elected officials accountable. I'm not sure

771
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 3: what it's like where you're from, but you know, a

772
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 3: lot of our elected officials they like to talk, but

773
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 3: they don't like to do anything. So actions speak louder

774
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 3: than words. Hold your elected officials accountable every time you

775
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 3: see them, ask them what they're doing about.

776
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 4: Protecting wild salmon.

777
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: Thanks, thank you guy, and think from you.

778
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, quickly along the lines of what Kirby was saying,

779
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 2: I mean, recognize that the medals that are necessary to

780
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 2: support our lifestyle are already there. They're in our walls,

781
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 2: in our cars, in our computers. The idea that we

782
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 2: need more of these metals in our lives is just

783
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,240
Speaker 2: the idea that we need more stuff in our lives.

784
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:16,320
Speaker 2: And that addiction is what's strangling this planet. And so Louis,

785
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sorry. Kirby's you know advice is you know,

786
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 2: is very strong. But if you want to follow along,

787
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 2: go to www. Dot s E I t C, dot

788
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 2: org O rg SO Southeast Alaska Indigenous trans Boundary Commission

789
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 2: s C I t C. We're just getting started and

790
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 2: so there should be some incredible stories along the way.

791
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 3: One last thing I'd like to say is that we

792
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 3: really need to consider the circular economy right now. We

793
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 3: live in a society where we throw away so many things.

794
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 4: You know.

795
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 3: I think about vehicle that go to the junkyard and

796
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 3: they're crushed, you know, like we should be taking those

797
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 3: vehicles apart, using the parts that we can, instead of

798
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 3: just crushing it into this big, massive rock that we're

799
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 3: eventually going to need to dismantle again sometime in the future.

800
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 3: We should be doing that now, and if there are

801
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 3: any good parts in that vehicle, then they should be

802
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 3: put back into circulation.

803
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:27,919
Speaker 4: Yeah.

804
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: I think that's an extad point.

805
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 2: They are elements after all.

806
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:32,399
Speaker 5: Yeah.

807
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well they're already broken down into the elements, right,

808
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,879
Speaker 3: and we're just crushing them back into a big rock again,

809
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 3: and then we're gonna have to take them out into

810
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:42,919
Speaker 3: the elements again.

811
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, when when we run aft have to dig out

812
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: of the ground. It's very sad to think that, like

813
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 1: the same desire. A colleague and I spent some time

814
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: reporting on the civil war in Myanmar last year, and

815
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: that's the same thing. It's people trying to extract rare

816
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,800
Speaker 1: earth metals and and it's it's people dying and the

817
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,439
Speaker 1: big damage because of it. And it's I think Cove

818
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: made next one point that like if we don't, you know,

819
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: those things are already there, and guys said it, like

820
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: in our walls and in our computers and things, and

821
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: we could do so much better to use the ones

822
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 1: we have rather than consistently damaging people on the planet

823
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:16,360
Speaker 1: to dig up more.

824
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 2: Respectful. Yeah, and be respectful.

825
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,320
Speaker 1: Thank you so much all of you for giving me

826
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:28,840
Speaker 1: some of your afternoon and sharing your time with our listeners.

827
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 1: I know they would really appreciate it, and I do

828
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: you too. It could happen here as a production of

829
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media.

830
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 5: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

831
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 5: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

832
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 5: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

833
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,280
Speaker 3: You can find sources for It could Happen here, updated

834
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 3: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources.

835
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening,