WEBVTT - Taylor Lorenz 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.480 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sex Podcast. 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:18.759 My guest today is Washington Post technology reporter Taylor Wrens, 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:22.560 the social media expert. Taylor, good to have you on 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:26.439 the podcast. Yeah, thank you for having me. So what's 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:30.520 the future of Instagram? Gosh, Instagram is kind of in trouble, 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:32.400 to be honest. I feel like they're going through an 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:37.000 identity crisis right now. Um. I think that TikTok kind 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:39.440 of came and ate their lunch a little bit, and 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:43.360 now they're struggling to capture back some of that like 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:45.760 relevancy that they used to have. It's just become a 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:50.040 very saturated, bloated network. It's it's basically just like a 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:54.080 mobile version of the Facebook Blue app. And as many 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.840 of us know, the Facebook Blue app, the famous original 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:03.360 Facebook book, is really really sort of struggling these days. 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:07.800 So Instagram's in trouble. Okay, let's go back to Facebook 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:12.560 because Facebook pre dates Instagram. Tell me your thoughts on Facebook. 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:15.920 I think Facebook has just become one of those kind 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:20.039 of like zombie companies. They can't innovate. Um, they basically 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.959 only innovate their acquisitions, which they can't do anymore. Because 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:25.440 of all the antitrust stuff. So they've kind of backed 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:29.000 themselves into a corner. Um, they made this hard pivot 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:33.800 into VR, UM, you know, renaming the company Meta. Mark Zuckerberg, 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:35.880 you know, spent pretty much all last year hyping the 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.399 so called Metaverse, which is literally just VR, which he's 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.920 you know, hyped a million times before. UM. But they're 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:47.200 sort of Hallmark product, which is the Horizons world, which 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.720 is the social VR experience, is pretty bad. It's I mean, 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.280 they sell it as something people can use for meetings 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:58.320 and remote work, but it's just it looks like something 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:01.400 that is from like ninety ninety eight. Like the graphics 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.559 are just really bad. People don't have these headsets, People 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:06.360 don't really want to spend time in these headsets. I 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:09.400 think that we are probably at least a decade away 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:13.799 from VR adult like sort of even go becoming slightly mainstream. 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:16.200 And I don't think that Facebook Horizons is going to 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:19.960 be the app that that brings it there. So um. 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.520 So yeah, Facebook is not in a great place, and 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:27.760 they've obviously just laid off tons of people as well. UM, 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:31.119 and so we'll see kind of I think they're struggling 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.760 to survive, right now, I mean they're still printing money 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.200 from the ads business. But yeah, let's slip it over 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:42.600 to the users. Conventional wisdoms is and it's oldsters on Facebook. 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:48.359 What is your assessment of who's still using Facebook? That's true. Um, 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.360 it's a much older user base, especially when you compare 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.920 it to something like TikTok or Snapchat or um other 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:59.080 social platforms, even Instagram. I mean Facebook, the core Facebook product. 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.240 The users have been aging for a while and they're 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:05.280 not capturing younger users. Um. There's if you ask a 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.079 teenager if they use you know, Facebook proper, I think 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:12.160 they'll look at you funny. Um. Instagram, you know has 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:19.079 a slightly better demographic portrait. Um, It's definitely has more 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.640 pop culture relevance. And so you do have young people 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:25.800 using it, but they're not necessarily creating a lot of 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.360 content or engaging with it heavily. They're kind of using 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:30.520 it like a phone book almost. Um, kind of like 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:32.919 the way that we have millennials used to use Facebook 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:36.840 back in the day. So um, that's kind of where 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.640 things are with them. Okay, but one here's that Facebook 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:45.920 is still the megaphone for school cancelations, uh and other 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:51.760 community notices. Is that your experience? Yeah, I mean I 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:54.840 think a lot of public officials use Facebook and Twitter 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.400 UM for the types of alerts like that. UM or 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:02.480 you know, Facebook groups is still you know, going strong. 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.240 There's tons of Facebook groups for parents and things like that. 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.680 Again goes back to that older user base, UM finding 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:13.040 utility in those types of things. So, yeah, those are great, 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:17.160 but you can't sustain a multi you know, billion users 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.359 social product with school closures. You need it to be 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:25.960 you know growing, and you need to be attracting younger users, 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.720 and you need to be you know, increasing time on 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:34.200 the platform, and that's just not happening right now. Okay, 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:39.480 Historically oldsters are a step behind their children. Are the 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.520 oldsters going to migrate from Facebook or are they just 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.320 going to be on Facebook and then they'll end their 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:49.159 usage of social media? Well that's a really good question. 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:52.040 I mean I think I don't know if they'll adopt 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:54.880 something new. It's kind of notorious, really hard to get 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:58.760 older people to adopt new platforms because their social network 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:02.320 has already established. UM. They're just generally less likely to 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.480 download apps and kind of want to expand their world 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.919 in that way, unless it's maybe interest base or location 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:12.240 based like something like next door is a good example. Um, 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.680 But I think I don't know that, you know, I 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.799 don't know that they're going to necessarily adopt something new. Um. 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:21.400 I think that Facebook might be with them, but I 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.039 think that they might start seeing themselves use Facebook less 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.840 and less. I mean, even the boomers that we're using 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:30.240 Facebook so much in are not necessarily using it as 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:34.640 much now because it's just becomes less of a utility 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.559 and you have all of these other platforms cleaving off 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.720 parts of what people use Facebook for. Next Door is 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:42.599 a good example of this. Right, instead of joining a 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.360 local Facebook group for your community, you might just join 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:49.080 next door. Or instead of using you know, Facebook to 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.120 kind of publish updates about your life, you might just 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:55.000 start a newsletter or move to email, um, things like that. 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:59.039 So I think there's also a lot of worries around privacy. Um. 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:02.000 Facebook does not have a great reputation for data privacy 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:04.080 or just user privacy in general, and I think that's 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.119 also scared a lot of people away. I think people 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:08.640 that were sharing tons of kidding photos on Facebook even 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.359 a few years ago, I've been more wary lately to 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:15.600 do that. Okay, let's switch over to their other product, Instagram. 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:20.520 Then Instagram was a photo sharing site and then all 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:24.120 of a sudden, TikTok gain traction and you have all 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.719 the people. I mean, there's a lot of issues here, 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.840 but let's start with the people who used uh Instagram 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.200 to both boost their base and monetize. Kardashians being a 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:38.919 good example, they're complaining about the change of Instagram to 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.560 try to compete with TikTok going to video. What's your 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:46.560 assessment there, Well, Instagram pivoted hard to video. You know, 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.279 back in when they launched a video product to compete 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:52.719 with Vine. That was their first kind of fora into video, 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:55.640 and that's when you saw videos performing better in the feed. Um, 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:57.560 there's that whole sort of pivotal video that happened in 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:01.560 the Mark Zuckerberg actually, as Lea said that Facebook would 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.920 become all video, I think by I think you said 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.599 that in sen and it really did end up coming true. 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:08.880 The same is true for Instagram. Of course, now you're 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:12.120 seeing their latest video product, which is Reels, which is 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:14.960 direct sort of rip off of TikTok, And I think 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:19.280 you see these old school Instagram people like the Kardashians 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:23.000 complaining about that because they can't compete in the new environment, right. 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:26.120 They don't want to have to suddenly create reels. They 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:27.960 just want to be able to post the picture like 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:31.640 it's and it's going to get tons of engagement. UM. 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:35.440 I would counter that with saying that those celebrities are 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:39.600 stagnant and um, you know, they need to adapt otherwise 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:42.440 they you know, users don't want that. A lot of 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.239 this stuff is delivering what users desire, and users desire 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:50.920 engaging video content. Um, that's just what user behavior shows. 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:54.239 So I think, um, you know, I think Instagram needs 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:58.400 to improve discovery. The problem with Instagram is that they've 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.160 built this follower base social on networks. So in order 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:06.880 you know, to UM, in order to see someone's content, 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:08.800 you follow them, right, and then you get this feed 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:11.880 of content that you've opted into. So when you see 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.720 content that you haven't opted into, for instance, Instagram putting 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.840 of reels into your feed, it's very jarring and frustrating 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:20.680 and you're like, I did knocked into this, or as 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:23.800 something like TikTok, you don't opt into anything necessarily, you're 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:28.440 getting all of your content primarily delivered through this algorithmic 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.800 feed called before you page, so you don't have to 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.240 follow a single person on TikTok. You're gonna be getting 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.320 you know, content served by the algorithm. And I think 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.640 those two, like the way that users approach those two networks, 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.800 that difference makes it very hard for Instagram to catch 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.640 up and insert new content into the feed and allow 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.199 smaller creators to grow because people are very like averse 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:54.160 to it, and because you have these big celebrities that 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:56.960 are like, oh no, don't you know, don't mess with 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:58.880 my position on the app. I still want to be 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:03.320 able to reach my fans, if that makes sense. Absolutely so. 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:08.280 Do we anticipate, you know, the Kardashians being the pinnacle here, 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:09.760 so we'll stay with them. You know, they have these 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:14.160 static photos that they employ stylists and all kinds of 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:18.439 expensive people to get a perfect, unrealistic picture then ultimately 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:23.320 tag advertising into it. Uh, will they pivot to video 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:25.720 or that is? Is that a transition that's just too 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:29.240 much for them? They've they've pivot, They've pivoted to video. 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:33.600 Oh pretty well, I mean they the Kardashians are just 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:38.439 very smart about marketing in general. I mean they post 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.720 on stories like I think that if they wanted to, 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:46.000 they could hire a videographer to make great video content. 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:48.280 I mean, look at someone like Jason deruloh, right, Like 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.679 I mean not that Jason Derulo was posting really posed photos, 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:53.240 but he kind of was like I don't know if 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.280 you remember that like iconic picture of him like getting 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:57.240 out of the pool. Like he was posting these like 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:00.360 thirst trap photos on Instagram for a while TikTok came 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:04.280 out and then he you know, leaned hard into TikTok 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.839 and is now a video superstar. So it can be done. Um. 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:12.080 I think the Kardashians are just maybe frustrated in general 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.400 that the platform isn't giving them more considering how much 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:19.439 they feel like they probably gave to the platform. Um, 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:21.560 but I do think that they can. You know, they're 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.720 still it's not like they're totally irrelevant in culture, right, 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.440 Like they're still relevant. They just need to up their 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.960 reels game a little bit. Well, if one assesses these 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:36.040 different networks, my viewpoint and we're all being fed different 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:41.760 videos on TikTok is there's a certain authenticity and credibility 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.960 and uniqueness to the individual on the street that is 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:51.200 a not embodied by traditional celebrities. And being not on 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.560 the other traditional social networks. What's your viewpoint there? That's 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:57.960 exactly right. I mean, that's exactly right. And I think, 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.719 um into I wrote this piece for The Atlantic called 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:04.080 the Instagram aathetic is Dead, and it was just about 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:08.800 the end of that hyper curated photoshop. Look how that 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.280 was not performing. Photos were not performing any kind of 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.600 hyper curated image on Instagram in nineteen, which is bombing. 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:22.240 And I think that was that real turning point where 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:26.079 we started to create more of authenticity. It's no coincidence that, 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.319 you know, TikTok also launched in and so I think 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.160 that's when we really started to see this shift towards 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.880 more raw content more Um, I don't, I don't. I 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:37.920 guess I shouldn't say authentic because a lot of it 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.400 is equally curated, but it's like a realness and uh, 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.040 you know, it's not so polished looking. Um. You know, 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:49.000 people at that point in that during that shift, content 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:52.760 that was shot on an iPhone was outperforming stuff shot 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.720 on a DSLR, which was interesting because Instagram was always 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:00.280 built on this high quality photography. So yeah, I do 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.600 think that that shift has happened, and for people that 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:05.719 are still sort of stuck in the old mindset. It's 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.160 hard for them to keep up, especially celebrities, because they 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:11.640 have these images right that they need to control and 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.120 they can't just always, you know, get on and be wild, 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:17.640 and so I think they have to be very strategic 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.240 about their presence on and sort of how to grow. 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:23.000 Jason Drule is a good example of this. He's managed 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:25.600 to grow and be relatable and collaborate with big young 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.400 creators and but a lot of celebrities struggle in that area, 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:35.160 traditional celebrities. Okay, theoretically YouTube could have captured this market. 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:42.000 Why did TikTok blow up? And YouTube means static? Yeah, 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:45.360 YouTube what a miss? I mean, I think they saw 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.640 the rise of musically, they saw the TikTok gaining traction, 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.720 and they still took a really long time to launch shorts. 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.920 Um And I think it's been interesting to see. I mean, 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:57.240 the thing is is that YouTube was just the the 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.960 king on top of the mountain for so long. It remains, 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.719 you know, the most stable platform in terms of monetization 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:05.640 in a lot of ways. Um And, I think that 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.559 they were just sitting pretty on their high horse. And um, 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:11.720 I don't think they did enough to prepare for something 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.080 like TikTok. I mean they should have seen that, they 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.720 should have seen this pivot towards short form video. Um. 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:18.600 I think they would argue, you know, that they do 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.439 have shorts, which is very similar to TikTok. The problem 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.880 again goes back to discovery. YouTube is a very saturated 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:29.000 platform where it's really hard to gain new subscribers. It's 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.720 notoriously like one YouTube subscriber is worth like a hundred 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:37.560 TikTok followers, um for fifty Instagram followers. Like, It's very 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:39.680 hard to get those subscribers on YouTube. So I think 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.480 that if YouTube really wants to compete with TikTok, they 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.720 need to nail discovery and they need to get better 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.800 about serving people, you know, engage in content from you 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:52.520 creators that they don't know, and helping those smaller creators grow. Okay, 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:55.960 not everybody is as up to speed as you are 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:59.840 on some of these issues. How did Musically, a youth 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:07.560 oriented app which was ultimately pooh pooed worth into TikTok. Well, 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:09.680 I think it was poo pooed by certain people. It 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:12.640 was certainly beloved and lauded, you know, by a lot 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.320 of us. UM, that covered it especially, and we're paying attention, 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.840 But I think, yeah, didn't it appeal more to a 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:23.440 younger demo than TikTok does? Well, yeah, definitely. I think 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:25.720 it appealed to a lot of teenagers. And I mean 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:27.600 the goal is to allow young people to make like 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.720 video selfies, and that really appealed to young people. And 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:34.080 I think you see, you know, at that point, um, 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:36.480 a lot of people in the tech world we're just 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:40.120 so anti content creator. I mean, if you look at 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:42.360 what a lot of these big bcs were saying about 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:45.560 influencers in the mid when when musically it was ascendant, 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:47.720 they just looked down on it because it was women, 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.360 it was young people, It was not people that they 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:54.200 considered serious people using it. Um. And that was obviously 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:59.200 such a huge oversight. Um. Meanwhile, you know it was 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.280 it was grow going at a crazy pace. UM. So 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.240 it was acquired by Byte Dance. Byte Dance kind of 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.160 cloned it and then acquired it by Dance of course. 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:11.160 Is this you know, giant Chinese tech conglomerate. Um. And 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:16.800 then they relaunched musically as TikTok in August, So that 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:20.040 musically app just flipped flipped over to the TikTok with app, 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:22.840 but it had the same functionality. I mean, if you 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:25.240 spend any time on musically, it was very similar to 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:27.040 what TikTok is today. It's the same app. I mean 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:31.560 the apps evolved a lot, but um, but yeah, So 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.160 what caused TikTok to blow up? Because certainly social media 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:40.280 networks are started, they don't necessarily gain traction. Well, so 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.920 a couple of things. One discovery, I mean, they just 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:49.240 nailed discovery. There was so much saturation in in terms 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:53.240 of that Instagram aesthetic, the millennial aesthetic, like it was 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.160 just it was oppressive and people wanted a space to 0:15:56.240 --> 0:16:00.520 be fun and creative and kind of weird. Um. Short video, 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:05.440 you know, obviously is something that can become hugely culturally 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.920 relevant because it's culturally relevant because it's so share able. Um. 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.360 You know, look at something like Vine. Vine wasn't around 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:12.920 that long, but if you look at the impact in 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.160 the reach that Vine had, it was really punching above 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:19.120 its weight. Um. So people could share the TikTok's really 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:21.480 easily cross platforms. So you started to see a lot 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:25.200 of TikTok's all over Instagram. Um, and they did a 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.720 ton of outreach towards creators, like they really instead of 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:32.160 shunning creators and kind of treating them like you know, 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:35.480 third class citizens like Facebook and Instagram was doing, they 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.680 really leaned into you know, content creator stuff. And by 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.240 the way, you know, Bob, it doesn't hurt that they're 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:45.600 owned by this multi billion dollar Chinese tech conglomerate that 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:49.160 spent a billion dollars alone marketing the app to young 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:52.440 people in its first year and in the States, Um, 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:54.880 that's a huge amount of marketing and that that even 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:59.400 just paying for those downloads, you that's almost impossible for 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:01.360 any other it up to compete with. So I think 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:03.480 that they, you know, they definitely got a leg up 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.000 in terms of the page. Go into a little more 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:08.520 detail how they spent that billion dollars and how they 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:12.159 reached the potential customer base. Yeah, a lot of it 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.439 was on app download ads, so again just getting those 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:18.000 download numbers, and they ran tons of ads on Snapchat. 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:22.440 They had this ambassador program for college students. Um, they 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:27.080 you know, they they were like paying big content creators 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:29.680 to post on the app. They were really just doing 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.080 so much in terms of marketing to get the word 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:35.399 out there. And I think it ended up being really 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.480 successful because you might get a teenager to download something 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.160 and it's like whatever, you all download this app, will 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:43.120 take a look. But then the content on the app 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:45.399 ended up being really engaging, so people stuck around, and 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:47.600 before you know what, you're creating content on there yourself. 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:51.680 So I think it just worked out super well. Now 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:57.199 we hear again and again about the TikTok algorithm, and 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.399 of course when Trump was president and look like he 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:02.480 was going to shut down TikTok, they're gonna have to 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:06.520 sell to Microsoft. Why can this algorithm not be cloned 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:10.240 or replicated? Well, because they have the best product team 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:13.880 in the entire world, and our American social media companies 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.440 are just wildly underprepared. I mean like they have not 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:21.399 spent their time focus focusing on recommendations. Like you know, 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.399 you would imagine that the explore page algorithm would be 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.080 far more sophisticated than it is right now on Instagram. 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.880 It's just not. None of these platforms have focused on 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:35.640 algorithmic discovery. They've been building these follow based models, um 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:37.320 and so I think it's something that they didn't invest 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.520 in because they also didn't think that there would be 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:43.280 any competition, right, the biggest you know, we reported on this, 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:48.119 but but so much of the TikTok backlash is it 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.600 is funded by Facebook basically, I mean, it's Facebook lobbying, 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:56.320 it's Facebook pr I reported UM Stories earlier story earlier 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.679 this year about how Facebook was actually hired this UM 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:03.680 public and operative firm to plant negative stories about fake 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.760 TikTok challenges and local media across the country plant fake 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.600 op eds. So, you know, I think that these big 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.800 tech conglomerates don't like competition, and for a really long 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.640 time they were able to squash or acquire every little 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.679 bit of you know, competing app um and and of 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:21.479 course this was the first time they couldn't do that. 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:26.320 Does anybody in the landscape have a strategy to compete 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.280 or is it like the music business twenty years ago, 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.720 We're going to either sue lobby or do use all 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:37.359 our efforts to hold back the future and competitors. I 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.480 think right now we're seeing these big tech companies do 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:43.600 exactly what you just describe to lobby and do anything 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.000 to hold back the future because they want to monopolize 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.840 the future and they realize that they don't have a 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:52.439 monopoly on it necessarily, right now because they have not 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.760 innovated enough. They've become too bloated, They've become stagnant. They're 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.639 not thinking um in innovative ways. And and so I 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:03.440 think that they've resorted to bullying kind of to maintain 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.600 their power. Um. But I think that can only hold 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:10.919 for so long. We'll see. Okay, let's go to Snapchat. 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:12.679 You know, when I think of Snapchat, I think a 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:17.520 second life sort of the original VR world, and it 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:21.840 had just a limited audience. It never grew. What's going 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:26.119 on with Snapchat because two quarters ago everyone was bullish 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:27.840 on it, said well, you know, their numbers are good, 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.080 and then this last quarter the numbers were bad. Uh, 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.600 explain your viewpoint on that. Yeah. Snapchats also in a 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.200 really hard spot. Also recently did a lot of layoffs. 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.040 I mean, I think Snapchat, like you mentioned, just could 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:44.320 never scale. I mean, that's a famous acquisition target, right. 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:47.439 Facebook wanted to buy them um and Evans people was 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:51.240 like no, um. And I think that they've just really 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.680 struggled there in this weird space where I think it's 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:57.600 unclear whether they're a messaging app or a social platform. 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:01.080 They're not really a social platform. They have content Discovery, 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:05.520 but it's it's kind of it's it's different than TikTok, right, 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.240 it's sort of separated out of the app is bifurcated, 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.399 so on one half is messaging and then one half 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:13.560 is the discovery page where you can see stuff from 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.280 you know, the Daily Mail and other kind of news 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.400 outlets and content creators. Um. And I don't know that 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:21.480 that was the right decision to split those. I mean, 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:24.399 they had their reasons, um, But I do think that 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:26.520 it's been hard for that to scale. I mean, it's 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:29.920 very hard for any company to compete with Facebook. It's 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.440 really hard. Facebook has had such a monopoly on our 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:35.760 social media landscape. And I think that they really did 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:37.600 a lot of damage to Snapchat and I don't know 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:41.000 the Snapchat will ever recover a little deeper. How do 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:45.520 they do damage to Snapchat? I mean cloning Instagrams and 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:48.520 the way the Instagram cloned Stories, which is their kind 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:51.960 of breakout feature. I think that captured a huge amount 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.240 of audience that was previously on going to Snapchat for 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:57.879 to produce that type of content. And just by cloning 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:01.000 that feature alone, they think they cleaved off a lot 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:04.040 of growth. Um. And then add dollars wise, I mean 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:06.960 stap chat just can't compete with Facebook's ad network or 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:09.879 Google's ad network um. And then I think just in 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:12.640 terms of messaging, it's you know again, it just goes 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:15.400 back to not it's not totally clear what snap chat 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:17.800 is for. It is used by a lot of younger people. Still, 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:19.679 I don't want to discount it like it's dead or 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:21.760 anything like that, but I think it's kind of in 0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:25.080 a space like Twitter, where Twitter and Snapchat are both 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:28.239 like relevant, but and they have similar I think they 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:31.640 have similar user numbers UM for monthly actives, I can't remember, 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:33.119 but it's around. You know, they're both kind of like 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:36.359 that second tier trying to break up into the top tier. 0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:39.520 But I haven't really been able to do it, and 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:41.400 they don't have a lot of money right now. Snapchats 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:44.000 they're shutting down a lot of stuff. So how do 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:47.439 you think it plays out of Snapchat? I mean, I 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:49.639 think that they have to worry about being caught in 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:52.120 a death spiral, right Like, there's this point where you're 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:54.359 shutting down all your innovation because you have to remain 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:57.640 lean to compete and to just to you know, survive 0:22:57.720 --> 0:22:59.760 as a company. But then that's also hard because you 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:02.280 can't invest in building things that are going to attract 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:05.200 future users or you know, thinking out in a five 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:08.040 year ten year plan, right, because you're focused on just 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:11.600 getting through this year. Um so we'll see. I mean, 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:14.920 I really love Snapchat and I can't help but root 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:16.359 for them, just because they don't want to live in 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:19.959 this world that's dominated by Facebook and Google. Um but 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:22.199 I just I don't know, you know where it's going 0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:32.840 to go. Okay, let's move on to Twitter. Twitter people 0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:37.160 call is called the social network primarily by people who 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:40.680 don't use it. I think Twitter is its own thing. 0:23:41.440 --> 0:23:43.800 You know, from the time we are speaking to the 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:48.359 time this airs. Who knows what Ellen Musk might be doing. 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:53.200 But what's your assessment as if today what's going on 0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:55.960 at Twitter? Wait, Bob, that's interesting. Why would you just 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:59.840 say Twitter is not a social network? This we're splitting 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:03.080 years here in terms of what we call a social network. 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:08.400 I you know, I find that if we talk about sharing, Okay, 0:24:08.400 --> 0:24:10.840 people thought of Facebook and they were sharing you know 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:13.640 what I did today? And when Twitter first game traction 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:17.119 ten eleven, twelve years ago was like that, whereas the 0:24:17.200 --> 0:24:21.200 people were getting the most traction on Twitter at this point, 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:24.840 it's based on information and people are gonna go there 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:28.639 because they want information as opposed to sharing where they 0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:31.800 were that afternoon or something. It's funny because I would 0:24:31.840 --> 0:24:35.960 say the same is true for Instagram and TikTok. Actually, um, 0:24:36.000 --> 0:24:39.440 I think that speaks to the broader shift in how 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:43.600 what users view social media what these platforms for. Um. 0:24:43.640 --> 0:24:46.719 A couple of years ago, I did a research study 0:24:46.760 --> 0:24:50.200 actually on Instagram and news content, and a huge amount 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:53.160 of people actually go to Instagram for new the way 0:24:53.200 --> 0:24:54.960 that you're thinking of sort of what people would go 0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:58.560 to Twitter for, especially if you're younger. So I think 0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:01.160 people are are so sally young people are just more 0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:03.840 likely to get their news and information from social platforms, 0:25:03.840 --> 0:25:05.240 and so they sort of turned to all of these 0:25:05.240 --> 0:25:08.000 social platforms. But you're a hundred percent right that Twitter 0:25:08.040 --> 0:25:11.280 is really unique. I mean, what makes Twitter unique is 0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:13.000 is not just the fact that it's You're right, it's 0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:16.119 more like news oriented for sure. It's also the only text, 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:19.719 primarily text based social network, right, Like you don't have 0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:22.240 to attach an image or video to post on their 0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:26.480 the way that you do on Instagram and TikTok and stuff. Um. 0:25:26.960 --> 0:25:30.480 But yeah, now I've forgotten your question. Um, you brought 0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:34.080 up you brought up another thing. Okay, one can certainly 0:25:34.200 --> 0:25:36.719 search on TikTok because you know, one of the latest 0:25:36.760 --> 0:25:41.080 reports is young people uh search on Let's go back 0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:44.719 a step for a while. They're the big story was 0:25:44.880 --> 0:25:49.440 people are doing their shopping searching on Amazon as opposed 0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:54.600 to Google. Now they say young people are searching on TikTok. 0:25:55.840 --> 0:26:00.280 And I don't find Instagram quite works that way. But 0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:05.920 the younger generation, when you talk about getting news from 0:26:06.040 --> 0:26:10.159 TikTok and Instagram, do you think they're just seeing it 0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:14.199 in their feet? Do you think they're ultimately searching for 0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:17.399 certain people, following certain people? How do What do you 0:26:17.480 --> 0:26:19.800 think is going on there? Yeah? I think all of 0:26:19.840 --> 0:26:22.520 that actually, Um, I mean certainly a huge amount of 0:26:22.560 --> 0:26:25.040 it is just seeing it in their feet if it's TikTok, right, 0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:27.840 Because TikTok, it doesn't really matter who you follow. Who 0:26:27.880 --> 0:26:30.719 you follow is the sort of one signal to the algorithm. Um. 0:26:30.840 --> 0:26:33.480 But when a big news event breaks, TikTok is where 0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:35.600 you're gonna find out about it. TikTok is where you're 0:26:35.600 --> 0:26:39.600 gonna see the discussion, especially pop culture news and um, 0:26:39.640 --> 0:26:41.760 you know, these big kind of like cultural discussions, those 0:26:41.760 --> 0:26:45.200 are all happening on TikTok um and then Instagram as well. 0:26:45.200 --> 0:26:48.080 I mean, like look at in terms of the way 0:26:48.119 --> 0:26:50.280 that people were finding out information about the Black Lives 0:26:50.320 --> 0:26:53.480 Matter protests or a lot of the social justice issues 0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:57.480 and and election related news, like that's a lot of that. 0:26:57.640 --> 0:27:00.359 People are getting that from Instagram and TikTok um, and 0:27:00.440 --> 0:27:03.040 sometimes they are seeking it out too. I mean, definitely, 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:04.960 when a big thing breaks where you see people talking 0:27:04.960 --> 0:27:06.960 about it, people will go on TikTok and search out 0:27:06.960 --> 0:27:10.440 those terms and try and understand what's going on, um, 0:27:10.480 --> 0:27:12.600 and they'll usually find content creators. I mean, there's tons 0:27:12.600 --> 0:27:16.680 of massive news content creators on both of these platforms. Um. 0:27:16.840 --> 0:27:18.560 Just the way that people also go to YouTube right 0:27:18.560 --> 0:27:20.880 to learn about things, although that's a little bit more 0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:24.760 longer form. UM. So I think that already a lot 0:27:24.800 --> 0:27:27.480 of what people would theoretically go to Twitter four has 0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:32.440 already migrated off Twitter even pre elon. Okay, let's say 0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:36.080 I'm driving on the freeway. You know, the map apps 0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:38.480 are so good. Right now, Let's say I see something 0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:40.800 in the ear, I see a fire. Used to be 0:27:40.880 --> 0:27:44.119 you would go literally turn on the TV. Only alcers 0:27:44.200 --> 0:27:49.040 do that now then you might go to the newspaper 0:27:49.119 --> 0:27:52.159 in your local place at TV station, whereas if you 0:27:52.280 --> 0:27:55.040 go on Twitter, No, you wouldn't go on Twitter for that, 0:27:55.080 --> 0:27:57.080 though you would go on you would go on, well, 0:27:59.000 --> 0:28:01.840 I'm still may be wrong. Let me finish. In the 0:28:01.840 --> 0:28:06.000 old days, if you were looking for information that was 0:28:06.600 --> 0:28:10.119 in your area, that something's happening, you hear a boom 0:28:10.200 --> 0:28:13.119 or whatever. I found if I went to Twitter, I 0:28:13.160 --> 0:28:17.680 could find information that I couldn't find elsewhere, and there 0:28:17.760 --> 0:28:21.880 was a certain efficiency in that. Whereas, let me pull 0:28:21.920 --> 0:28:25.040 the pull it back just a little bit, the oldsters 0:28:25.520 --> 0:28:30.680 criticize the youngsters for being uninformed. My belief is today's 0:28:30.880 --> 0:28:34.240 younger generations are more informed on the news than ever 0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:39.680 in the history of humanity. However, just like we see 0:28:40.600 --> 0:28:45.560 an argument in politics people's specific news feeds, there's an 0:28:45.560 --> 0:28:49.200 immediacy on Twitter where you can and as they say, 0:28:49.280 --> 0:28:52.640 if it's a big story, someone gets shot, take us 0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:56.160 get shot. Yeah, you're gonna see it on all these platforms. 0:28:56.840 --> 0:28:59.640 But if the story is not that big, what is 0:28:59.680 --> 0:29:02.960 it going to take to find it on Instagram or TikTok. 0:29:04.000 --> 0:29:05.920 That's such a good point, and you know you're right. 0:29:06.040 --> 0:29:09.320 You're right that Twitter has that real time search that's 0:29:09.400 --> 0:29:12.360 really hard to find on other platforms. Um. You know, 0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:14.280 it's funny. If I saw a video of a fire, 0:29:14.880 --> 0:29:18.760 I think most people's default place to upload that right 0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:21.120 now would be TikTok if you wanted to sort of 0:29:21.160 --> 0:29:23.040 alert people, right if you wanted to be like, WHOA, 0:29:23.080 --> 0:29:25.280 this is crazy, I have this crazy thing that I've seen. 0:29:26.200 --> 0:29:28.920 I think five years ago you would have posted on Twitter. 0:29:29.040 --> 0:29:31.360 I think these days you post on TikTok and that. 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:35.440 But but in terms of searching, you're right, I mean certain. 0:29:35.480 --> 0:29:37.520 The thing is you can search for recent stuff. I 0:29:37.520 --> 0:29:40.560 mean you can. This TikTok search is very good. It 0:29:40.680 --> 0:29:45.560 is very good. It's not exactly the same as Twitter, um, 0:29:45.640 --> 0:29:49.000 because Twitter is text based. It's it's different. But I 0:29:49.040 --> 0:29:52.400 do think that, um, you know, it allows people to 0:29:52.400 --> 0:29:56.720 search out like major like events, surviral things. You're right though, Bob, 0:29:56.760 --> 0:29:59.840 that local like that local thing is really hard to 0:29:59.840 --> 0:30:03.880 find on TikTok. You know, Twitter advanced search is just 0:30:03.960 --> 0:30:06.160 more robust, and it allows you to kind of segment 0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:09.120 out the content based on location, based on time like, 0:30:09.320 --> 0:30:11.800 I mean, you can do time on TikTok to. But yeah, 0:30:11.880 --> 0:30:15.320 it's there's that that has not TikTok search needs to 0:30:15.360 --> 0:30:20.360 improve for sure. That's something that has haunted YouTube from 0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:24.280 its inception, the tag issue. Whereas if you have a 0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:27.240 text based thing, it's much easier to slice and dice 0:30:27.320 --> 0:30:30.840 the information. Where if I were to even put fire 0:30:31.000 --> 0:30:34.360 Santa Monica into TikTok, someone may even have a video 0:30:34.400 --> 0:30:36.320 of the fire, but if the tags you're not right, 0:30:36.560 --> 0:30:40.120 I won't be able to see it. Well, the thing 0:30:40.320 --> 0:30:42.800 is is that TikTok is smarter than that. It doesn't 0:30:42.800 --> 0:30:45.360 matter if you tag it. It can still search based 0:30:45.400 --> 0:30:48.520 off a lot of information, for instance, captions in the video, 0:30:48.640 --> 0:30:51.960 location of the video. I mean, you're I don't think 0:30:51.960 --> 0:30:55.040 actually concerned by location, but I think I do think 0:30:55.040 --> 0:30:56.640 that I've tried to find a lot of niche stuff 0:30:56.680 --> 0:30:59.040 on TikTok enough and been able to find it that 0:30:59.200 --> 0:31:02.440 it knows a lot more about the videos um in 0:31:02.520 --> 0:31:04.760 terms of text too. I think the captioning, I do 0:31:04.880 --> 0:31:07.640 believe that the captions are searchable, like I do think 0:31:07.680 --> 0:31:10.480 that that's a signal to search when you search on 0:31:10.480 --> 0:31:15.200 TikTok um like the captions on actual video, not the 0:31:15.360 --> 0:31:18.120 like the transcript of the video, I should say, rather 0:31:18.200 --> 0:31:20.760 than the like thing that people write out about it. Right, 0:31:20.800 --> 0:31:24.960 But let's focus on Twitter specifically. Elon Musk now own 0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:28.680 was being a great reduction and employment. He's spouting off 0:31:29.640 --> 0:31:33.200 news is covering it on a micro level. What's the 0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:35.800 future of TikTok? As I say, in between when we 0:31:35.880 --> 0:31:39.080 talk and when this airs, all kinds of crazy things 0:31:39.080 --> 0:31:42.040 can happen. That's a nature of Elon musk But from 0:31:42.080 --> 0:31:45.680 where you see it today, Yeah, future of Twitter um 0:31:46.960 --> 0:31:51.320 very hard to predict under Elon Musk. Um. I don't know. 0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:54.160 I mean, I I really wanted to give you on 0:31:54.200 --> 0:31:55.960 the benefit of the doubt, but he doesn't. He doesn't 0:31:56.040 --> 0:31:59.840 understand social platforms at all. Um, And in fact, he's 0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:04.320 aims very misguided about stuff. I'm very concerned about how 0:32:05.840 --> 0:32:09.239 anti free expression and anti free speech he is. I mean, 0:32:09.240 --> 0:32:11.600 Twitter has notoriously been in this platform where you can 0:32:11.600 --> 0:32:14.520 say you know so much and you can communicate so much, 0:32:14.520 --> 0:32:17.320 and you can talk about these really hard, real world issues. 0:32:17.720 --> 0:32:20.760 You cannot talk about these big issues on TikTok or Instagram. 0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:24.480 You will immediately get community guidelines violation if you try 0:32:24.520 --> 0:32:28.280 and talk about Nazis, for instance, on either of those platforms, um, 0:32:28.360 --> 0:32:31.400 Whereas on Twitter you can have these open, hard political 0:32:31.400 --> 0:32:35.239 discussions Under Ellen. I think it's worrying because he is 0:32:35.800 --> 0:32:39.600 so anti free expression, um that you already see him, 0:32:39.760 --> 0:32:43.400 you know, talking about things like banning quote unquote negative tweets. 0:32:43.560 --> 0:32:45.800 What are negative tweets? Who knows? That's up to him 0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:50.160 to decide. He's arbitrarily banned a lot of accounts that 0:32:50.200 --> 0:32:53.160 are sort of leftist accounts or accounts focused on social 0:32:53.240 --> 0:32:58.160 justice reporters, um, and then he's brought back um, you know, 0:32:58.360 --> 0:33:02.160 far right extreme at us to have violated community guidelines before. 0:33:02.240 --> 0:33:05.040 So I think that's really worrying. He really just doesn't 0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:10.080 understand content moderation at all. Um. He has lied a lot. 0:33:10.200 --> 0:33:13.000 I mean, he has lied so much always, but he 0:33:13.280 --> 0:33:16.640 really has lied a lot recently. UM. For instance, he 0:33:16.680 --> 0:33:18.480 said that he was going to have this content moderation 0:33:18.520 --> 0:33:20.800 counsel and nothing would be done without them. That was 0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:25.240 a complete lie. Um. You know, he's also making a 0:33:25.280 --> 0:33:28.360 lot of moderation decisions based on Twitter polls, which, as 0:33:28.640 --> 0:33:31.680 you'll you'all wroth, I hope and pronouncis day Right, the 0:33:31.720 --> 0:33:34.760 former head of test and Safety of Twitter said, is 0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:38.280 the number one most easy to manipulate feature on the platform. 0:33:38.320 --> 0:33:40.560 I mean, making any decision based off a Twitter poll 0:33:40.560 --> 0:33:43.800 that can be so easily manipulated by thoughts for an interest, 0:33:43.880 --> 0:33:49.440 etcetera is so irresponsible. So um yeah, he's also fired 0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:52.040 all the teams that have to do with any kind 0:33:52.040 --> 0:33:55.720 of policing of child sexual abuse material for instance. You know, 0:33:55.800 --> 0:33:59.560 so he can't even police his own platform. Um, it's 0:33:59.760 --> 0:34:05.240 it's not looking good. Okay, let's talk about the free expression. 0:34:05.360 --> 0:34:09.520 We have those on the right who said a that 0:34:10.520 --> 0:34:16.440 Twitter was a left wing platform b uh elon muskeetians control. 0:34:16.600 --> 0:34:19.640 He says it's about free speech, and you're talking about 0:34:19.719 --> 0:34:23.279 it's the opposite of free speech. It's the absolute opposite. Also, 0:34:23.360 --> 0:34:26.840 let's just be clear, Bob, Twitter as Twitter as a 0:34:26.880 --> 0:34:31.520 political investigation is shown as Twitter's own data showed. Right, 0:34:31.560 --> 0:34:34.640 They released their own data showing that over and over 0:34:34.680 --> 0:34:39.960 agun Twitter has significantly amplified conservative voices. In fact, Twitter 0:34:40.040 --> 0:34:44.279 is a conservative news platform because conservative voices and far 0:34:44.440 --> 0:34:49.600 right voices received significant amplification in the feed, far more 0:34:49.640 --> 0:34:52.200 than anybody on the left. And that's been reported so 0:34:52.239 --> 0:34:54.600 many times over. So anybody that says otherwise at this 0:34:54.640 --> 0:34:57.160 point is just lying. I mean they're just lying in 0:34:57.160 --> 0:34:59.840 the face of all of this data. Listen, I agree 0:34:59.840 --> 0:35:03.520 with you totally. But is that viewpoint being in the 0:35:03.520 --> 0:35:07.640 news reporting world. Is this just a canard that the 0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:10.839 right has come up with the wedge issue to get 0:35:10.920 --> 0:35:14.680 results they want. Are they conscious of this? Why does 0:35:14.760 --> 0:35:17.920 this story never die? Well, it never dies because these 0:35:17.920 --> 0:35:20.040 people are lying. I mean, these people are lying. These 0:35:20.080 --> 0:35:22.200 same people that are growing all day about free speech 0:35:22.200 --> 0:35:24.880 are the ones kind of banned books from libraries that 0:35:24.920 --> 0:35:27.759 they don't feel, you know, like it's just ridiculous. I mean, 0:35:27.840 --> 0:35:30.480 as a journalist, someone that relies on the First Amendment 0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:33.800 to do my job, so such a staunch supporter of 0:35:33.840 --> 0:35:37.880 free speech, and you have these right wing you know, 0:35:37.960 --> 0:35:42.680 politicians and far right reactionaries trying to silence I mean, 0:35:42.680 --> 0:35:45.560 trying to silence people. What they want is to silence 0:35:45.680 --> 0:35:47.960 people on the left, and they will lie and do 0:35:48.080 --> 0:35:51.080 anything to do that. And it's it's very disappointing. It's 0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:55.640 very disappointing. And I you know, obviously not saying that 0:35:55.719 --> 0:36:01.040 every conservative is doing that, but you know, most most 0:36:01.080 --> 0:36:04.920 of the loudest ones on Twitter are extremely hypocritical. I mean, 0:36:04.960 --> 0:36:09.239 just Elon endorsing shadow banning people that he doesn't disagree with, 0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:13.600 That's that's bad. I mean just saying like negative downraking 0:36:13.680 --> 0:36:16.960 quote unquote negative tweets. That's so terrifying because what is 0:36:16.960 --> 0:36:20.319 considered a negative tweet, right, that is a highly subjective 0:36:20.360 --> 0:36:23.280 thing to say that you are going to actually prevent 0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:26.640 people from seeing that content in search results. I mean, 0:36:26.640 --> 0:36:29.440 that's just if that was flipped, it would be a 0:36:30.080 --> 0:36:31.960 endless news cycle. But I feel like it's a similar 0:36:32.000 --> 0:36:34.080 I mean, he's doing the Trump playbook, right, which is 0:36:34.160 --> 0:36:38.799 just kind of um, say anything and your actions can 0:36:38.840 --> 0:36:41.560 completely refute everything that you're saying, but it doesn't matter 0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:43.839 because you're just People are just gonna believe what you say, 0:36:43.880 --> 0:36:46.200 even though behind the scenes you are literally doing absolutely 0:36:46.239 --> 0:36:50.560 everything against what you purport to believe. Um. And I 0:36:50.560 --> 0:36:52.520 don't know, people don't have a lot of media literacy 0:36:53.040 --> 0:36:55.120 these days, so I think a lot of people fall 0:36:55.360 --> 0:36:59.640 for it. Let's talk about the news business. Trump array 0:36:59.800 --> 0:37:04.200 of elected in sixteen, really starts amplifying his campaign eighteen 0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:09.680 months before, and it is reported at infinitum There's a 0:37:09.680 --> 0:37:12.600 lot of criticisms, especially with TV News, that this is 0:37:13.120 --> 0:37:17.839 impacting ratings, selling ads, and there was a lot of 0:37:17.840 --> 0:37:21.399 criticism even at the Washington Post, the Margaret Sullivan, who's 0:37:21.440 --> 0:37:24.120 no now no longer with the paper, saying you have 0:37:24.239 --> 0:37:28.080 to take a side. Uh NPR did a story on 0:37:28.120 --> 0:37:30.760 that that you know, you just can't report this stuff. 0:37:30.800 --> 0:37:36.160 You're playing into the hands now this time around, it seems, 0:37:36.280 --> 0:37:39.319 you know, even led ironically by the right, the New 0:37:39.400 --> 0:37:44.200 York Posts, they're giving him less oxygen. Okay, but I 0:37:44.239 --> 0:37:46.040 don't want to make this about Trump. I want to 0:37:46.080 --> 0:37:50.800 make this about Elon Musk. The press is reporting literally 0:37:50.920 --> 0:37:53.680 everything this guy dies. You would think literally world peace, 0:37:54.280 --> 0:37:58.640 you know, depends on Twitter. Okay, it's because the media 0:37:58.800 --> 0:38:01.839 is addicted to Twitter. And look, Elon Musk is one 0:38:01.840 --> 0:38:04.120 of the richest men in the world. Right, the juicy 0:38:04.239 --> 0:38:06.560 story that people want to read, um and it does 0:38:06.640 --> 0:38:10.080 have very serious business implications, and you know, Elan is 0:38:10.120 --> 0:38:13.399 doing stuff that is endangering lives. Um So I think 0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:16.759 that's why you're getting so many stories. I don't think 0:38:16.760 --> 0:38:19.040 that the stories can continue at this pace forever. But 0:38:19.120 --> 0:38:21.840 I think this is a really wild, you know, past 0:38:21.880 --> 0:38:25.800 couple of weeks. Um, And so you're not around of 0:38:26.280 --> 0:38:31.600 bandwidth is commensurate with the reality of Ellen or people 0:38:31.600 --> 0:38:34.400 are just so fascinated by Elon in the business and 0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:37.840 addicted to Twitter that they're giving him all this space. Well, 0:38:37.840 --> 0:38:39.520 I would say people are giving him space, but I 0:38:39.560 --> 0:38:42.520 think they're rightfully debunking a lot of what he says, right, 0:38:42.560 --> 0:38:46.120 I mean, I think it's really important to um fact 0:38:46.239 --> 0:38:49.319 check the stuff that he's saying, because he lies with 0:38:49.480 --> 0:38:52.760 such abandoned that I think it's important for the media 0:38:52.840 --> 0:38:57.120 to definitely contextualize that stuff. Um. You know, I think 0:38:57.480 --> 0:39:00.120 Ellen and Trump are very different. I mean, Elan is 0:39:00.160 --> 0:39:03.719 a business leader, right, he's not running a political campaign yet, 0:39:04.719 --> 0:39:06.919 and I think Twitter, you know, the stuff that he's doing. 0:39:07.040 --> 0:39:09.520 This deal even just the way that this deal happened 0:39:10.239 --> 0:39:14.920 was notable and had you know, real money implications for people, 0:39:14.960 --> 0:39:18.160 like market implications. So um, I think, you know, I 0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:20.440 think it's a story worth covering. I think that just 0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:23.080 the way that you need to cover it you need 0:39:23.120 --> 0:39:25.880 to think about obviously, like the way that you're covering it. 0:39:25.960 --> 0:39:28.000 Like I think that's the problem with a lot of 0:39:28.000 --> 0:39:31.520 the Trump coverage to I mean, Cable news was so 0:39:31.719 --> 0:39:35.319 incredibly irresponsible, right, Like the way that CNN and a 0:39:35.360 --> 0:39:39.400 lot of outlets covered that election was completely irresponsible. I 0:39:39.440 --> 0:39:42.520 think now a lot of lessons have been learned, and certainly, 0:39:42.680 --> 0:39:45.120 I mean, I can tell you from working in you 0:39:45.160 --> 0:39:47.520 know where I work, that a lot of you know people, 0:39:47.600 --> 0:39:49.720 people really think critically about a lot of this stuff, 0:39:49.760 --> 0:39:52.160 and um for as many stories I mean, and I 0:39:52.200 --> 0:39:54.320 think that the Elon stories get a lot of shares. 0:39:54.360 --> 0:39:57.320 But it's not like everyone is only writing Elon stories 0:39:57.440 --> 0:39:59.560 right like people are still writing all the other tech stories. 0:39:59.560 --> 0:40:01.480 It is just that those stories, that's what a lot 0:40:01.520 --> 0:40:03.680 of people want to talk about right now because all 0:40:03.680 --> 0:40:05.920 the media people are addicted to Twitter. Again, it is 0:40:05.920 --> 0:40:08.440 their primary platform. If all the media people left Twitter, 0:40:08.760 --> 0:40:10.840 it would not be getting the amount of oxygen that 0:40:10.840 --> 0:40:13.279 it's getting. Well, I guess this is interesting to me 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:16.399 because I don't think the average person is either on 0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:20.759 Twitter or is concerned to this degree. But before I 0:40:20.800 --> 0:40:23.600 got down that pipeline whige, I may not I see 0:40:23.640 --> 0:40:28.560 a similarity in Trump and in Elon, And then you 0:40:28.600 --> 0:40:33.600 get to Kanye where they are a addicted to the 0:40:33.680 --> 0:40:39.000 publicity and being in the public eye and be traditional 0:40:39.080 --> 0:40:41.440 media doesn't understand. I mean, what you have to give 0:40:41.480 --> 0:40:45.160 Trump credit on was A he was on social media. 0:40:45.640 --> 0:40:48.680 B he was speaking English. I mean, this is why 0:40:48.960 --> 0:40:51.560 I voted for Hillary on a big left winger. But 0:40:51.800 --> 0:40:54.000 when she said her favorite book was the Bible, I said, 0:40:54.040 --> 0:40:57.560 that's just complete horship. Okay, so she was complete, uh, 0:40:57.880 --> 0:41:04.080 really untrustworthy. Whereas you have um Trump using the vernacular 0:41:04.600 --> 0:41:09.239 and it appealed to people, and he gained even to 0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:12.160 this lead date, he gained purchase on people that the 0:41:12.200 --> 0:41:15.160 media do not. Now I feel the same thing with 0:41:15.239 --> 0:41:18.799 Elon if for no other reason. Okay, there's two things. One, 0:41:18.840 --> 0:41:23.840 he's a running Twitter, B is posting every day. CE 0:41:24.120 --> 0:41:27.520 does have a CV superior to Trump and many of 0:41:27.520 --> 0:41:30.080 these other people. You know, it was involved in PayPal. 0:41:30.200 --> 0:41:33.600 We can't slice and dice that. Tesla, whether he started 0:41:33.719 --> 0:41:37.920 or not, under his egis it became quite an enterprise SpaceX. 0:41:38.239 --> 0:41:42.040 So you have the cult of Elon which he is feeding. 0:41:42.120 --> 0:41:45.120 Now the other thing becomes a debate is this positive 0:41:45.239 --> 0:41:48.719 or negative? Is it hurting or helping test actinly not 0:41:48.840 --> 0:41:53.960 helping Tesla. And then you have Kanye who is addicted 0:41:54.000 --> 0:41:57.919 to press in the same way. Kanye is literally mentally ill, 0:41:57.960 --> 0:42:01.480 not that these others don't have flaws, and he seems 0:42:01.520 --> 0:42:04.160 to be self immolating, he's going to go down with 0:42:04.239 --> 0:42:09.200 the fire, etcetera. So on one hand, these people have 0:42:09.600 --> 0:42:13.840 figured out the modern paradigm. On another level, they pushed 0:42:13.840 --> 0:42:18.880 it so far, certainly Trump and Kanye, where there's been backlash. 0:42:19.040 --> 0:42:21.319 So if you want to get your message out, have 0:42:21.440 --> 0:42:25.560 these people tapped into something or is this one and 0:42:25.680 --> 0:42:29.520 done well? I think all of them are really expert 0:42:29.600 --> 0:42:33.320 at leveraging the attention economy and like you said, speaking 0:42:33.360 --> 0:42:38.120 to people and kind of feeding into people's base conspiracies, 0:42:38.239 --> 0:42:42.760 especially I mean they're telling people what they want to hear. Trump, Elon, Kanye, 0:42:42.840 --> 0:42:46.799 they will tell people, especially you know Elon lately he's 0:42:46.880 --> 0:42:49.400 just telling people what they want to hear, whether or 0:42:49.400 --> 0:42:52.960 not it's true, and stuff he says it's not true, right, 0:42:53.000 --> 0:42:57.120 He's promoting wild conspiracy theories, but he knows that those 0:42:57.440 --> 0:43:00.359 will play well online and that people will believe because 0:43:00.360 --> 0:43:03.360 he's rich and this is America and we worship money 0:43:03.400 --> 0:43:05.040 above all else. So that is why he has the 0:43:05.080 --> 0:43:08.040 respect that he does. Um, I don't know. In terms 0:43:08.080 --> 0:43:10.560 of backlash, I mean, I think you're right, like Kanye, 0:43:10.800 --> 0:43:14.399 it's a totally different situation. Um, And I think it's 0:43:14.520 --> 0:43:18.120 very sad, um. You know, just the path that he's 0:43:18.120 --> 0:43:22.600 gone down. Um. Trump, I think has alienated so many people, 0:43:22.640 --> 0:43:25.279 so many of like political leaders in the GOP, that 0:43:25.320 --> 0:43:27.920 it's it's gonna be hard for him. Ellen doesn't have 0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:31.160 to work within the constraints of the political world or 0:43:31.200 --> 0:43:34.400 the entertainment industry. He kind of can played by his 0:43:34.480 --> 0:43:38.080 own rule book. So I think we'll see. I think, Um, 0:43:38.120 --> 0:43:41.040 you know, you mentioned Tesla. I think that if what 0:43:41.160 --> 0:43:45.680 he's doing at Twitter ends up impacting Tesla enough um, 0:43:45.920 --> 0:43:48.120 or you know, impacting his other companies enough, and he 0:43:48.160 --> 0:43:50.440 really starts to lose a significant amount of money, I 0:43:50.440 --> 0:43:53.080 think that's the only way that he can be sort 0:43:53.120 --> 0:43:56.680 of held accountable, I guess for his actions or that's 0:43:56.719 --> 0:43:58.600 the only time that people will start to question him. 0:43:58.640 --> 0:44:00.960 I think as long as you know, he kind of 0:44:01.600 --> 0:44:03.880 has the appearance of success, people won't. I mean, he 0:44:04.000 --> 0:44:07.520 keeps crowing about these gaining user numbers, but he stopped 0:44:07.520 --> 0:44:10.880 policing spam. He's just allowing spam on the platform, and 0:44:11.200 --> 0:44:13.919 you know, millions of accounts that were being deleted every 0:44:13.920 --> 0:44:16.799 week a spam. Now former Twitter employees have said are 0:44:16.840 --> 0:44:19.480 no longer being deleted, and then he's so it's just 0:44:19.600 --> 0:44:22.120 a lot of smoking mirrors. Um, but that can only 0:44:22.200 --> 0:44:25.279 last so long. I think, you know, we'll see he 0:44:25.360 --> 0:44:30.200 can't do this for five years, right, So, UM, I 0:44:30.200 --> 0:44:32.279 don't know if it's an effective strategy or not yet. 0:44:39.719 --> 0:44:42.920 Let's talk about you specifically. Right in the Washington posted. 0:44:43.000 --> 0:44:45.239 Let's just say you did not write every day in 0:44:45.280 --> 0:44:49.160 the post one thing that would love for me to 0:44:49.160 --> 0:44:53.840 write every day. Okay, well that's interesting, but leaving that aside, 0:44:54.280 --> 0:44:56.480 the post is more far in advance at the time 0:44:56.560 --> 0:45:00.640 where you work previously, and there are many more articles 0:45:00.680 --> 0:45:06.240 that allow comments. Okay, so if you write once a week, 0:45:06.320 --> 0:45:08.759 once every two weeks, usually it's more once once every 0:45:08.760 --> 0:45:11.759 two weeks, you can see feedback that way. But you 0:45:11.800 --> 0:45:17.160 are a very active poster on Twitter. What is your 0:45:17.239 --> 0:45:21.880 motivation there? Oh? I post more on Instagram that I 0:45:21.920 --> 0:45:25.760 do on Twitter, I think. But what we're talking about Twitter? Yeah, 0:45:25.800 --> 0:45:28.560 but the sooner Twitter on a media group chat. I mean, 0:45:28.600 --> 0:45:31.160 the value of Twitter is for what one reporting? I 0:45:31.200 --> 0:45:34.280 cover Internet culture, right, so I gotta be on everything. Um, 0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:36.560 but yeah, I post on everything. I kind of just 0:45:37.200 --> 0:45:40.200 there's no platform that I don't post content on because 0:45:40.239 --> 0:45:43.120 I'm constantly using it one to promote my stories, to 0:45:43.360 --> 0:45:46.240 shape narratives. UM. You know, I talk a lot about 0:45:46.280 --> 0:45:49.319 the media. I cover the media. I care a lot 0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:53.280 about journalism and sort of under people understanding the information 0:45:53.360 --> 0:45:58.040 ecosystem and our media environment. UM. I view Twitter mostly 0:45:58.080 --> 0:46:00.680 as a place to talk to other journe us, but 0:46:00.719 --> 0:46:03.279 I also find tons of sources there. I think there's 0:46:03.320 --> 0:46:05.760 tons of people in tech on Twitter, so it's valuable 0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:09.600 for that point to UM. But mostly I'm like trying 0:46:09.600 --> 0:46:12.880 to think how I use I used every platform differently, UM, 0:46:12.920 --> 0:46:15.440 but Twitter is definitely the one where I'm just like, hello, media, 0:46:15.520 --> 0:46:18.600 people pay attention to this. I have a new story out. 0:46:18.719 --> 0:46:21.680 Here's why this matters, you know, let's go at. Let's 0:46:21.680 --> 0:46:25.560 go a little bit slower word from the outside, which 0:46:25.600 --> 0:46:30.799 may not be accurate. Traditionally, except for the opinion calumnus 0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:34.200 in the major newspapers, most of the reporters were faceless. 0:46:34.239 --> 0:46:37.480 Their names were on the articles, but other than a couple, 0:46:37.560 --> 0:46:39.799 most people really had no idea who those people were. 0:46:40.719 --> 0:46:44.480 Whereas you were reporting on the bleeding edge social media 0:46:45.120 --> 0:46:49.240 and you know, the scuttle butt was the traditional people 0:46:49.520 --> 0:46:51.960 at the New York Times didn't like that you were 0:46:52.000 --> 0:46:55.839 getting that much attention, and we're against the modern period. 0:46:55.880 --> 0:46:58.320 I'm what was going on from that? Oh that's not true, 0:46:58.520 --> 0:47:00.920 that's not true. Look at someone like Ben Smith. No 0:47:00.960 --> 0:47:06.480 one loves attention like Ben Smith. Ben Smith left. Yeah, 0:47:06.560 --> 0:47:11.080 we both left the Times for I think similar Ben 0:47:11.239 --> 0:47:16.640 Smith thought that he was going for opportunities, and I 0:47:16.719 --> 0:47:19.600 didn't feel from the Outtimes. Once again, I say, this 0:47:19.640 --> 0:47:23.960 is perception as opposed to reality. Perception wasn't wasn't that 0:47:24.040 --> 0:47:29.640 there was backlash against Ben Smith? Uh, but perception was 0:47:29.680 --> 0:47:33.000 there was backlash against you. I'm constantly getting backlash from 0:47:33.239 --> 0:47:35.680 Look at Fox News every week, Tucker Carlson is ranting 0:47:35.719 --> 0:47:39.120 against me. I mean, I think that is constant backlash. 0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:42.720 But I never received backlash from anyone at the Times 0:47:42.760 --> 0:47:45.759 while I worked there. I mean, I they hired me 0:47:45.840 --> 0:47:48.359 because of my stories. I don't know, and I really 0:47:48.400 --> 0:47:52.040 disagree with you about people don't know the names. Look 0:47:52.080 --> 0:47:55.160 at Maggie Haberman, somebody ten times more famous than me, right, 0:47:55.200 --> 0:47:58.560 that has a cable news contract. That's an audience of 0:47:58.680 --> 0:48:01.760 one point seven million On Twitter I mean I'm nowhere 0:48:02.320 --> 0:48:04.759 near that big or you know, there's also amazing people 0:48:04.800 --> 0:48:07.080 at the Times that I always looked up to, like 0:48:07.280 --> 0:48:09.600 the critics. I mean, look at someone like John Kara Monica, 0:48:10.120 --> 0:48:13.560 absolute legend in the pop you know, industry, and kind 0:48:13.560 --> 0:48:16.120 of like coverage in New York and um, I mean, 0:48:16.120 --> 0:48:18.719 there's just so many famous journalists at the Times. I 0:48:18.760 --> 0:48:22.680 think the problem with The Times, or my my feelings 0:48:22.719 --> 0:48:24.560 about The Times is that you can't you don't have 0:48:24.600 --> 0:48:27.440 as much ownership, right, Like, it's a big place, and 0:48:27.480 --> 0:48:29.680 I loved I mean, I loved working there, and I 0:48:30.440 --> 0:48:34.799 I you know, I would work there still if if 0:48:34.880 --> 0:48:37.719 I could have more of my own thing. Like, I 0:48:37.760 --> 0:48:40.080 think it's a great place when you're learning stuff and 0:48:40.080 --> 0:48:41.759 you're starting out and if you don't mind being in 0:48:41.800 --> 0:48:44.840 service to the Times brand. But it's never you know, 0:48:44.840 --> 0:48:48.640 it was never my I never aspired to work at 0:48:48.640 --> 0:48:51.480 any of these legacy places at all. Um. And so 0:48:51.520 --> 0:48:53.920 I think for me, I just you know, I'm not 0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:58.319 just gonna take a paltry salary for way less money 0:48:58.360 --> 0:49:00.719 than I could make and not own anything and not 0:49:00.760 --> 0:49:03.400 be able to do any outside projects just to say 0:49:03.400 --> 0:49:05.360 that I work at the New York Times. I don't 0:49:05.440 --> 0:49:08.600 care about that. I don't think brands like that, um, 0:49:08.640 --> 0:49:12.239 you know, to me matter so UM. While I love 0:49:12.320 --> 0:49:14.439 the Times and I'm such a fan, I will remain 0:49:14.480 --> 0:49:16.680 a subscriber for life. I love my friends there, and 0:49:16.719 --> 0:49:19.680 I love my old editor. I would die for her. Um. 0:49:19.719 --> 0:49:23.520 But you know, for me, it's just not where I 0:49:23.640 --> 0:49:27.400 you know, I want wanted to kind of spend spend 0:49:27.440 --> 0:49:30.080 my time, like I thought. I wanted to do work 0:49:30.120 --> 0:49:32.279 somewhere where I could do more of my own UM 0:49:33.040 --> 0:49:36.040 projects and have things that I kind of can manage 0:49:36.040 --> 0:49:37.719 and control a little bit. And again that's just not 0:49:37.800 --> 0:49:39.560 a knock at the Times, because I think that The 0:49:39.640 --> 0:49:43.360 Times is amazing in terms of the resources that they have. UM. 0:49:43.400 --> 0:49:47.239 And I'm you know, I still work with them on 0:49:47.320 --> 0:49:49.520 things if I need to, you know, like I would. 0:49:49.600 --> 0:49:52.440 I'm not against them at all, but but I just 0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:56.160 think for someone like me, it's not it's like I wanted. 0:49:56.239 --> 0:49:59.319 I wanted more basically, Okay, but you know, I don't 0:49:59.360 --> 0:50:02.759 want to h hammer at this point because once it's 0:50:02.840 --> 0:50:05.720 very funny because people are so obsessed with the Times. 0:50:05.760 --> 0:50:07.799 It's like, why didn't they ask me why I left 0:50:07.840 --> 0:50:10.120 The Atlantic? Like why wait wait, wait, wait, wait wait, 0:50:10.719 --> 0:50:12.799 I'm not going there. I was going somewhere to get 0:50:15.160 --> 0:50:20.400 people do know who Maggie Haberman is, But many many 0:50:21.280 --> 0:50:23.880 more people know who you are than any of the 0:50:23.920 --> 0:50:26.760 pop critics, any of the movie critics at the Times. 0:50:27.680 --> 0:50:32.000 I think, I will tell you I don't want to 0:50:32.040 --> 0:50:36.000 go if you're I'm in the music business. Pop critics 0:50:36.000 --> 0:50:38.000 in the New York Times, other than the publicity people 0:50:38.040 --> 0:50:41.720 who want to get stories placed they were, they're meaningless 0:50:41.880 --> 0:50:46.719 because wait, wait, this gets into a bigger thing. I mean, uh, 0:50:47.239 --> 0:50:48.839 and I don't know if it's relevant to what we're 0:50:48.880 --> 0:50:51.240 going on now. But as I say, looking from outside 0:50:51.280 --> 0:50:53.400 of the bubble, this is one of the problems I 0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:55.640 have with the News Business Center. It doesn't quite get 0:50:56.200 --> 0:50:59.120 what's going on. I mean, it used to be a 0:50:59.120 --> 0:51:02.640 critic could make or breakup, movie record whatever. That doesn't 0:51:02.680 --> 0:51:07.880 even happen anymore. So they're working for the Times. Okay, 0:51:07.880 --> 0:51:11.239 This guy pop critic at the Times. He wrote a 0:51:11.440 --> 0:51:18.120 phenomenal book about Atlanta and hip Joe Cocarell, one of 0:51:18.120 --> 0:51:22.680 the best in the business. Yea the video. The last 0:51:22.719 --> 0:51:26.960 time I checked, his book had not had a single 0:51:27.040 --> 0:51:29.680 review on Amazon. Over a month after it came out. 0:51:30.880 --> 0:51:34.120 I don't know about Amazon reviews, but Joe, no, no, no, no, 0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:39.279 this is just relative to impact, and I don't want 0:51:39.280 --> 0:51:41.520 to This is not the most important story. But I 0:51:41.600 --> 0:51:44.799 guarantee you if I went on Twitter right now and 0:51:44.840 --> 0:51:49.240 I looked at Kara Monica's Twitter count follower account compared 0:51:49.280 --> 0:51:52.439 to yours, it would be a small fraction. Well, yeah, 0:51:52.480 --> 0:51:55.640 I've developed a huge audience on I started as an 0:51:55.680 --> 0:52:06.400 Internet person. Yeah, but my point was people were traditional reporters. Okay, 0:52:07.760 --> 0:52:10.799 they're jealous of that, of course they are. Of course 0:52:10.800 --> 0:52:12.840 they're jealous of me. This has been my whole career. 0:52:13.680 --> 0:52:15.560 But I don't know what to say other than I 0:52:15.640 --> 0:52:19.880 am an extremely inclusive person. Ask anyone that I've ever 0:52:19.960 --> 0:52:22.359 worked with. I mean, people at the Times will tell 0:52:22.400 --> 0:52:24.600 you how much I go out of my way to 0:52:25.080 --> 0:52:30.759 help people. I don't care about credit. I will time out. 0:52:31.160 --> 0:52:34.640 The reason I brought this up was not to criticize you, 0:52:35.800 --> 0:52:40.080 was to talk about the other people. Okay, that they're 0:52:40.160 --> 0:52:43.480 stuck in a past paradigm. They worked for the Gray Lady. 0:52:44.000 --> 0:52:46.560 You don't want to step out where you're living in there. 0:52:46.680 --> 0:52:49.080 They shouldn't buy into that. They shouldn't buy into that. 0:52:49.200 --> 0:52:51.239 I I tell this to young journalists all the time. 0:52:51.320 --> 0:52:53.920 Don't buy into that. Don't then you are in service 0:52:54.080 --> 0:52:57.920 of some big company. And one of these big companies 0:52:58.160 --> 0:53:00.879 I graduated into the recession, and and the two thousand 0:53:00.960 --> 0:53:03.960 eight recession was one of the really formative events of 0:53:04.000 --> 0:53:07.080 my life. And the biggest thing I learned from that 0:53:07.280 --> 0:53:10.640 it was companies will never have loyalty to you. They 0:53:10.640 --> 0:53:13.040 will literally lay you off tomorrow if it's in their 0:53:13.080 --> 0:53:16.480 best interests. Serving some news company for thirty years of 0:53:16.520 --> 0:53:19.279 your life is not gonna you know, you can be 0:53:19.360 --> 0:53:22.160 laid off. Look, this just happens literally on a weekly 0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:25.120 basis in the media industry. And so I think when 0:53:25.120 --> 0:53:27.400 I started out, and as I've built my career just 0:53:27.480 --> 0:53:31.880 coming up, I never want to I don't view working 0:53:31.920 --> 0:53:35.120 at a big place as stability, and certainly not a 0:53:35.120 --> 0:53:38.960 big place where their brand is kind of everything is 0:53:38.960 --> 0:53:40.960 in service of this brand and you have no control 0:53:40.960 --> 0:53:42.960 and no ownership, and you are nothing, and you basically 0:53:42.960 --> 0:53:46.239 are there to serve a big brand. I I just 0:53:46.480 --> 0:53:49.440 that for me, I don't trust that. I don't trust that. 0:53:49.520 --> 0:53:51.239 I think that is not going to lead to long 0:53:51.320 --> 0:53:53.000 term stability. That's not to say that I wouldn't love 0:53:53.040 --> 0:53:55.080 to work certain place, and I had a wonderful time 0:53:55.080 --> 0:54:00.240 working there, But I just think, I I don't I 0:54:00.239 --> 0:54:03.480 I'd never I always want to hedge. I don't trust 0:54:03.920 --> 0:54:07.400 companies to ever have my best interest at heart, because 0:54:07.400 --> 0:54:09.239 no company will have your best interests at heart. They're 0:54:09.280 --> 0:54:11.160 there to make money at the end of the day. 0:54:11.280 --> 0:54:16.719 And so I just, you know, personally, that's just I 0:54:16.719 --> 0:54:18.960 don't know, that's just my feeling a lot of amazing, 0:54:20.800 --> 0:54:22.920 you know. I think you've made that point well, but 0:54:23.040 --> 0:54:25.160 I want to make a point in addition to that, 0:54:26.320 --> 0:54:30.839 if something is going on in Ukraine, okay, or there's 0:54:30.880 --> 0:54:36.160 a national or international crisis, no one covers it as 0:54:36.239 --> 0:54:39.840 well as the major media outlets. I'm talking about print 0:54:39.880 --> 0:54:46.880 as opposed to cable news. So that's a layer of stories, okay. 0:54:46.920 --> 0:54:49.799 But I I remember the New Yorker, which is revered 0:54:49.840 --> 0:54:55.240 amongst the intelligentsia, did a linked the story on ticketing, 0:54:56.360 --> 0:54:58.360 and I talked to one of the key players in 0:54:58.360 --> 0:55:00.440 the business and they say, what do you think of 0:55:00.440 --> 0:55:03.480 the article? Is tell me something I don't know, you know, 0:55:03.600 --> 0:55:07.640 there's nothing in there whatever, And what I find online 0:55:07.920 --> 0:55:13.120 is there is an expert, an absolute expert, in every vertical. 0:55:13.960 --> 0:55:18.040 This person is not working for traditional media, but they're findable. Now. 0:55:18.400 --> 0:55:20.160 One of the reasons I have you on the podcast 0:55:20.280 --> 0:55:23.239 is from my viewpoint, you're the number one expert that 0:55:23.360 --> 0:55:27.080 I have found on social media. You happen to work 0:55:27.520 --> 0:55:30.040 from major news outlet at this particular point in time, 0:55:30.320 --> 0:55:34.360 but all these other people don't. So therefore, if you 0:55:34.400 --> 0:55:37.960 want to get the heartbeat of not only America but 0:55:38.040 --> 0:55:43.600 the world, it happens on line. And therefore you have 0:55:43.800 --> 0:55:48.839 the older generation who pooh poos TikTok. Most people are 0:55:48.880 --> 0:55:52.520 not on Twitter because they're narcissistic. They want to make 0:55:52.560 --> 0:55:56.200 it about them, and unless you are a player in 0:55:56.200 --> 0:55:58.319 the news business or famous for some other reason, it 0:55:58.360 --> 0:56:01.480 doesn't work and it's not as simple in their minds 0:56:01.560 --> 0:56:07.000 to use. Okay, So assessing what's going on is an 0:56:07.040 --> 0:56:12.000 interesting thing. But I was driving somewhere different, which is 0:56:12.440 --> 0:56:20.360 you are participating online every day, okay, And the question 0:56:20.480 --> 0:56:23.440 becomes and listen, I'll say the same thing about me. 0:56:23.480 --> 0:56:25.960 I don't want to say you're unique. To what degree 0:56:26.080 --> 0:56:29.239 do you need the attention? Do you need the hit 0:56:29.320 --> 0:56:33.480 of interaction? And to what degree does that drive your activity? 0:56:33.600 --> 0:56:36.160 Bob I have I am a user. Do you know 0:56:36.200 --> 0:56:41.120 how irresponsible it would be to go and write authoritatively 0:56:41.280 --> 0:56:44.399 about these platforms when I'm not a user. I mean, 0:56:44.760 --> 0:56:47.720 look at the stories that I have gotten. You don't 0:56:47.800 --> 0:56:50.759 get those stories. Guys sitting on the sidelines and never 0:56:50.880 --> 0:56:53.240 using the products that you're writing about. That's like asking 0:56:53.719 --> 0:56:56.880 a you know, somebody that that does reviews of laptops 0:56:56.920 --> 0:56:59.560 to never touch a computer. You have to use these 0:56:59.560 --> 0:57:01.600 technolog jees and you have to really understand them, and 0:57:01.600 --> 0:57:04.680 you have to understand the dynamics of them. What is 0:57:04.680 --> 0:57:07.280 it like to be docked and and you know, receive 0:57:07.360 --> 0:57:09.160 mass amount of rassman campaign? What does it like to 0:57:09.200 --> 0:57:11.600 say the wrong thing on TikTok and have a zillion 0:57:11.680 --> 0:57:14.160 stitches about you? These are things that I can cover 0:57:14.560 --> 0:57:18.760 because I understand them so innately because I used the Internet, 0:57:19.000 --> 0:57:21.760 and I understand that to a lot of people, they 0:57:21.800 --> 0:57:23.960 don't like a reporter that uses the Internet. I mean, 0:57:24.000 --> 0:57:26.520 this has been my entire career, and by the way, 0:57:26.560 --> 0:57:29.680 I started as an Internet personality. I didn't start as 0:57:29.680 --> 0:57:33.160 a journalist. I started as a person that got followers. 0:57:33.240 --> 0:57:37.400 For most of my career, I've ran social right like I. 0:57:37.400 --> 0:57:40.000 I have been in this since the beginning. And the 0:57:40.080 --> 0:57:43.040 reason that I'm so good at reporting on it is 0:57:43.040 --> 0:57:45.720 because I'm a user. And that is how you have 0:57:45.840 --> 0:57:47.840 to be, as they say, close to the machine. That 0:57:48.000 --> 0:57:52.040 is how you do good tech reporting. It's very irresponsible 0:57:52.360 --> 0:57:57.440 to not participate and to not you know, not use TikTok, 0:57:57.520 --> 0:57:59.600 to not whatever, and then report on it. I mean, 0:57:59.640 --> 0:58:01.120 And that's how to say. And I say that because 0:58:01.120 --> 0:58:03.520 I report on tech from user perspective. I was just 0:58:03.720 --> 0:58:05.680 a business reporter and I was just reporting on what 0:58:05.720 --> 0:58:08.680 happens in these companies. Sure, you know you don't have 0:58:08.720 --> 0:58:11.480 to use it as much, but I think if you 0:58:11.600 --> 0:58:14.880 are reporting on culture and Internet culture of course, also 0:58:14.960 --> 0:58:17.840 just basic source building. I mean, the way to build 0:58:17.880 --> 0:58:21.560 sources is to stay and stay in people's minds. And 0:58:21.680 --> 0:58:25.560 if you just sort of disappear into the ether, you're 0:58:25.560 --> 0:58:27.600 not going to get those stories. I mean, all of 0:58:27.640 --> 0:58:30.840 my best scoops I've gotten from posting on the internet 0:58:30.880 --> 0:58:33.000 and said, like I mean the TikTok one, for instance, 0:58:33.000 --> 0:58:34.720 the targeted victory one. I'll just use that as an 0:58:34.760 --> 0:58:38.240 example of one. Earlier this year, I quote tweeted when 0:58:38.600 --> 0:58:41.000 Blumenthal said something about a made up TikTok challenge, and 0:58:41.000 --> 0:58:43.040 I quote tweeted it and I was like, this is crazy, 0:58:43.080 --> 0:58:45.280 this TikTok. This is not a TikTok challenge, and this 0:58:45.360 --> 0:58:47.360 is made up by YouTube. Why is it that we 0:58:47.440 --> 0:58:50.120 see all of this stuff in local media? Suddenly guess what, 0:58:50.240 --> 0:58:52.600 my source saw that tweet and leaked me all the documents. 0:58:52.600 --> 0:58:55.520 I got that amazing scoop. If you don't that, that's 0:58:55.560 --> 0:58:57.760 just the nature of internet culture reporting. Everyone else on 0:58:57.800 --> 0:58:59.920 my beat, by the way, is hype is the same one, 0:59:00.320 --> 0:59:02.600 the exact same way. They just don't have the big following. 0:59:02.640 --> 0:59:04.439 And I'm the oldest on the beat, and so whatever 0:59:04.480 --> 0:59:06.440 I get where, I get what I get. But um, 0:59:07.480 --> 0:59:09.480 but I mean, this is what we're covering. This is 0:59:09.520 --> 0:59:11.920 our beat. It's like trying to cover culture and sitting 0:59:12.120 --> 0:59:13.720 in your house all day and never going to a 0:59:13.760 --> 0:59:15.960 concert or never watching a TV show. How are you 0:59:15.960 --> 0:59:17.840 supposed to be a cultural critic if you don't participate 0:59:18.200 --> 0:59:21.919 or consume? Well, put, but let's go back to something 0:59:21.960 --> 0:59:24.480 you said a few minutes ago. You said, how you 0:59:24.600 --> 0:59:29.600 use these platforms, And one way you use these platforms 0:59:29.680 --> 0:59:33.960 is to amplify your story. None. You know, let's not 0:59:34.000 --> 0:59:36.960 pointing gasoline on this. Let's just look at it calmly. 0:59:37.800 --> 0:59:41.440 Does that work. I'm a writer also, I do I 0:59:41.480 --> 0:59:44.760 do not. I do not hype my stories. I'm a 0:59:44.880 --> 0:59:48.160 unique thing. It's not like I'm writing every day. But 0:59:48.480 --> 0:59:51.080 I find which is not your issue. It turns off 0:59:51.120 --> 0:59:53.000 people already read it. But if there's going to be 0:59:53.080 --> 0:59:56.040 a virality, that's in the hands of the people who 0:59:56.040 --> 0:59:58.840 writ no, no, no, no, no no no. I worked 0:59:58.840 --> 1:00:03.280 in audience development, Bob. My job was audience development. The 1:00:03.360 --> 1:00:06.200 people who say, oh, I don't promote my own work, 1:00:06.680 --> 1:00:10.680 they're relying on the institution to promote their work. You know, 1:00:11.040 --> 1:00:13.360 you don't just publish things and have a built in 1:00:13.520 --> 1:00:16.040 audience on the Internet. You need to reach people. And 1:00:16.080 --> 1:00:19.200 the way to reach people is to put the content 1:00:19.600 --> 1:00:21.680 in front of them in a way they can consume. Right. 1:00:21.920 --> 1:00:24.439 If I do a story, I don't just tweet it out. 1:00:24.440 --> 1:00:26.360 I make a TikTok about it, I post about it 1:00:26.360 --> 1:00:28.880 on Instagram, I send it out, is an email alert 1:00:28.920 --> 1:00:32.160 sometimes in my newsletter. All of these things are letting 1:00:32.320 --> 1:00:36.000 the audience that cares about my work. No, Hey, there's 1:00:36.040 --> 1:00:38.040 this new story out just the way that the New 1:00:38.120 --> 1:00:40.720 York Times or the Washington Post would tweet a story 1:00:40.760 --> 1:00:43.720 out or whatever. I just don't rely on my employer 1:00:43.800 --> 1:00:45.720 to do any of that because I used to do 1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:47.440 I used to have that job, right, I used to 1:00:47.520 --> 1:00:50.080 run social media for all of these big media companies, 1:00:50.280 --> 1:00:52.520 and I know how much work goes into promoting people's stories, 1:00:52.720 --> 1:00:54.880 and what a difference it makes when a reporter report 1:00:55.080 --> 1:00:57.120 promotes their own story. I mean, that's the goal. I 1:00:57.160 --> 1:00:59.800 wish we could get reporters to kind of do that, 1:01:00.160 --> 1:01:02.040 but they, of course don't generally feel like that's part 1:01:02.040 --> 1:01:04.840 of their job. And that's fine for me. I think, Um, 1:01:05.200 --> 1:01:07.280 I don't just want to either, Like I also don't 1:01:07.320 --> 1:01:08.840 just want to promote my story, but I want to 1:01:08.880 --> 1:01:12.560 open a conversation about it. You mentioned comments. Comments are 1:01:12.600 --> 1:01:15.200 great for people that are subscribers or that you know, 1:01:15.320 --> 1:01:17.240 might have an account with the Washington Post, but it's 1:01:17.240 --> 1:01:19.000 not great to hear from the public. And I want 1:01:19.000 --> 1:01:21.040 to hear from the public. I want my stories to 1:01:21.120 --> 1:01:24.640 generate conversation. I want to say, hey, look, I found 1:01:24.640 --> 1:01:26.840 this information out. I'm putting this into the world. Let's 1:01:26.880 --> 1:01:30.000 discuss it. Do you have questions? Do you have thoughts, 1:01:30.440 --> 1:01:32.840 what you know? What what does this mean? And how 1:01:32.880 --> 1:01:34.959 can we kind of further the conversation. Those are things 1:01:34.960 --> 1:01:37.880 that that are relevant and that inform future stories. I 1:01:37.920 --> 1:01:40.880 want that kind of feedback, and I want that relationship 1:01:40.920 --> 1:01:44.720 with my audience and the public so that I'm accountable. 1:01:45.120 --> 1:01:47.400 A lot of journalists go off into their you know, 1:01:47.520 --> 1:01:50.400 Ivory tower, and then they you know, they say, oh, 1:01:50.480 --> 1:01:52.640 and here's a story from me. I've come down and 1:01:52.680 --> 1:01:55.720 here's here's my story. No, I want to be in 1:01:55.760 --> 1:01:58.640 the mix with everyone, with the public saying, hey, look 1:01:58.640 --> 1:02:00.440 this is what I found out, here's my story. What 1:02:00.480 --> 1:02:02.840 do you guys think? What questions do you have that 1:02:02.880 --> 1:02:04.440 I can answer? What did I What could I do 1:02:04.480 --> 1:02:07.680 better for next time? Oh? That stuff is really important 1:02:07.720 --> 1:02:11.520 to me. Okay, I think that's well articulated. Let me 1:02:11.560 --> 1:02:15.360 shift the gears a little bit to clubhouse two sides. 1:02:18.240 --> 1:02:23.160 Let's say, how come the medium anybody who followed tech 1:02:23.320 --> 1:02:26.760 history and was I knew this was a non starter 1:02:26.920 --> 1:02:32.720 from day one? Okay, how come everybody missed it and 1:02:32.800 --> 1:02:36.640 also talk about it? It's not quite as an inception, 1:02:36.640 --> 1:02:39.920 But not long thereafter when it was still private, my 1:02:40.080 --> 1:02:44.200 ear quotes you got into a people attacked you tell 1:02:44.320 --> 1:02:47.000 us about that? Oh god, well, people attacked me all 1:02:47.040 --> 1:02:50.880 day on the internet. Um. Clubhouse, Yeah, I mean Clubhouse 1:02:50.920 --> 1:02:53.920 was interesting. I will give them credit, Bob, even though 1:02:53.960 --> 1:02:56.240 you're right that the platform was very doomed I think 1:02:56.280 --> 1:03:02.280 by intentional choices made by the VC firm that invested them. Um, 1:03:02.320 --> 1:03:04.400 I wouldn't say that. You know what what it did 1:03:04.480 --> 1:03:06.720 is something that Snapchat did too, which is pioneer a 1:03:06.760 --> 1:03:09.280 new format. And I think you have to give Clubhouse 1:03:09.320 --> 1:03:13.080 credit for that. Short form audio. Short form live audio 1:03:13.320 --> 1:03:16.120 was not a thing, right Twitter, Twitter Spaces would never 1:03:16.160 --> 1:03:18.920 have existed if it wasn't for Clubhouse. I know, Spotify 1:03:19.000 --> 1:03:21.720 as green Room. There's all of these new sort of 1:03:21.760 --> 1:03:26.120 short audio products and features now in other other products 1:03:26.240 --> 1:03:28.960 that we wouldn't have if there was no Clubhouse. So 1:03:29.320 --> 1:03:32.360 I think you you really do have to give Clubhouse 1:03:32.400 --> 1:03:37.600 credit for introducing that new sort of short form audio 1:03:37.720 --> 1:03:41.240 format just to stay with it. Short form. But what 1:03:41.360 --> 1:03:44.600 broke Clubhouse was long form? Yeah. Well, I think what 1:03:45.080 --> 1:03:48.960 I actually descred what what broke Clubhouse was the way 1:03:49.000 --> 1:03:50.840 that they managed the app. I mean, I think they 1:03:50.920 --> 1:03:54.560 scaled without any protections for harassment and abuse, and it 1:03:54.600 --> 1:03:57.640 became very toxic and very overrun with spam. A lot 1:03:57.680 --> 1:03:59.280 of people say, oh, we don't want you know, this 1:03:59.320 --> 1:04:01.560 is Elon's favor thing. Oh we don't want any moderation. 1:04:02.000 --> 1:04:04.760 You know what makes people want moderation spam, And that 1:04:04.880 --> 1:04:07.720 is what happened with Clubhouse. It was overrun with these 1:04:07.720 --> 1:04:13.080 like scam rooms. And then also I think UM discovery 1:04:13.320 --> 1:04:16.000 was fundamentally broken. We're talking about discovery on TikTok right, 1:04:16.120 --> 1:04:19.440 Like TikTok has this amazing ability to surface content that's 1:04:19.440 --> 1:04:22.680 interesting to you and follow, you know, encourage you to follow, 1:04:22.680 --> 1:04:26.520 an engage with people that are interesting. Clubhouse never nailed discovery. 1:04:26.600 --> 1:04:28.360 It was way too late that they rolled out that, 1:04:28.400 --> 1:04:30.680 like algorithmic feed, at that point people had lost I 1:04:30.680 --> 1:04:33.280 think they've benefited hugely from the early days of pandemic 1:04:33.280 --> 1:04:37.120 when everyone was caught in UM. But the main suggested 1:04:37.200 --> 1:04:39.280 user list on that app had a bunch of and 1:04:39.360 --> 1:04:42.160 recent Horwitz partners on it. I'll never forget this is 1:04:42.200 --> 1:04:44.840 in my book, being at this TikTok house in Atlanta 1:04:44.920 --> 1:04:47.960 with a bunch of teenage you know, TikTokers in Atlanta, 1:04:48.560 --> 1:04:50.200 and they're talking about Clubhouse and one of them is like, 1:04:50.240 --> 1:04:52.240 oh yeah, I love Clubhouse. You just have to follow 1:04:52.280 --> 1:04:54.600 all these really old, weird white guy guys first to 1:04:54.640 --> 1:04:56.200 get onto the app. And I was like, show that 1:04:56.200 --> 1:04:58.360 to me. What are you talking about. They're talking about 1:04:58.640 --> 1:05:01.520 being forced to follow work and recent to get onto 1:05:01.520 --> 1:05:06.800 the app. That's very bad user experience. You should. I 1:05:06.840 --> 1:05:11.360 think that in the case of Clubhouse, the investors, primary investors, 1:05:11.440 --> 1:05:14.280 use that app to boost their own influence, which they 1:05:14.280 --> 1:05:16.320 continue to try and do over and over again because 1:05:16.320 --> 1:05:19.040 they're so desperate to be influencers these days, um to 1:05:19.120 --> 1:05:22.040 the detriment of discovery, and I think that they that 1:05:22.160 --> 1:05:24.320 and then the crazy number of push alerts that they 1:05:24.320 --> 1:05:26.360 would send. I just think that they burned the user 1:05:26.360 --> 1:05:29.640 base out. Users couldn't find interesting stuff, and then kind 1:05:29.640 --> 1:05:32.800 of like what happened to Snapchat once Instagram Stories rolled out, 1:05:33.000 --> 1:05:35.680 once Twitter spaces rolled out, once we had these competing products, 1:05:35.800 --> 1:05:39.080 it just wasn't you know, people didn't need to go 1:05:39.240 --> 1:05:48.840 to a specific app. Let's go back a step to 1:05:49.040 --> 1:05:52.640 heat hate in general. You know, I get hate every day. 1:05:53.240 --> 1:05:56.080 I remember, you know, I remember this was about eight 1:05:56.200 --> 1:05:59.440 years ago. Tina Fey wanted to won some award and 1:05:59.520 --> 1:06:01.880 she stood on stage and called out one of our haters. 1:06:01.920 --> 1:06:03.840 You have someone that no one would know other than 1:06:05.120 --> 1:06:09.440 so that there's an incredible number of people were afraid 1:06:09.480 --> 1:06:12.520 to play because of the hate. How do you cope 1:06:12.520 --> 1:06:15.160 with the hate? Well, I mean I don't. What I 1:06:15.240 --> 1:06:19.080 experience is not just hate, right, I have for three 1:06:19.160 --> 1:06:23.080 years now been the target of a very coordinated smear 1:06:23.120 --> 1:06:27.360 campaign by um, you know, far right actors that are 1:06:27.400 --> 1:06:31.880 that are politically motivated, that are very anti media. So, um, 1:06:31.960 --> 1:06:33.840 you know, it's not just hate. I don't care about hate. 1:06:33.880 --> 1:06:36.160 I cover YouTubers for a living, Bob, So if I 1:06:36.280 --> 1:06:38.760 cared about hate, I wouldn't you know, be in this 1:06:39.160 --> 1:06:43.200 in this beat different question. Lett's separate this out before you. 1:06:43.480 --> 1:06:45.840 Let's just talk about average social media hate is supposed 1:06:45.840 --> 1:06:48.000 to coordinate that you're talking about my hate? Okay, well 1:06:48.800 --> 1:06:52.120 does it? No? No? Does it literally just roll off 1:06:52.200 --> 1:06:56.800 your back? At this point? I think in most of 1:06:56.840 --> 1:07:01.360 it does because I have the last few years have 1:07:01.520 --> 1:07:09.160 been so crazy, so crazy, I mean, so out of 1:07:09.200 --> 1:07:12.640 control experiences that I never thought I would have crazy, 1:07:12.960 --> 1:07:15.560 um that I think at this point, I'm I'm very 1:07:15.600 --> 1:07:18.280 desensitized to it. But I also it's it's I mean, 1:07:18.320 --> 1:07:22.400 it's completely changed how I operated on the internet because 1:07:23.240 --> 1:07:27.000 because because of the backlash that I get. So tell 1:07:27.200 --> 1:07:29.080 tell me how you've changed. I mean, I just I'm 1:07:29.200 --> 1:07:33.640 I'm extremely privacy oriented and like there's a reason that 1:07:33.720 --> 1:07:36.880 you never see me post anything about my life, who 1:07:36.920 --> 1:07:40.480 I'm friends with, I'm not. I'm not sharing any kind 1:07:40.480 --> 1:07:42.880 of details. People don't know anything about me because I 1:07:42.880 --> 1:07:44.800 don't want them to know anything about me, because I 1:07:44.840 --> 1:07:48.320 am intentionally private about that. When I'm on the Internet. 1:07:48.360 --> 1:07:51.400 I'm on the Internet for fun and to connect for sure, 1:07:51.800 --> 1:07:54.080 But I'm not you know, I'm just a lot more 1:07:54.160 --> 1:07:58.680 private about you know, any kind of personal aspect of 1:07:58.720 --> 1:08:02.520 my life. Um in a that I so that works 1:08:02.640 --> 1:08:09.680 for something, But for either the weirdos or the people 1:08:09.680 --> 1:08:12.480 who are out to get you, we know, everybody is 1:08:12.560 --> 1:08:16.519 findable amation Oh yes, I mean I've been docs a 1:08:16.560 --> 1:08:20.240 million times over, as have my friends and family members. 1:08:20.479 --> 1:08:24.200 So let's segue back to the right wing campaign and 1:08:24.320 --> 1:08:26.439 mix it all together. Tell me more about the right 1:08:26.439 --> 1:08:31.559 wing campaign and to what degree you are fearful. Yeah, well, 1:08:31.600 --> 1:08:36.280 I mean I've had very credible physical interactions, so I 1:08:36.320 --> 1:08:38.280 am very fearful of these people. I mean, these people 1:08:38.280 --> 1:08:43.080 do not stay online. Unfortunately, they become radicalized and they 1:08:43.120 --> 1:08:47.320 will try and physically harm you. Um. But what they 1:08:47.640 --> 1:08:50.080 you know, what they succeed at most is reputational harm. 1:08:50.080 --> 1:08:52.960 And I've written many, many, many stories about this to 1:08:53.040 --> 1:08:57.200 try and help people understand. Um. But you know, a 1:08:57.280 --> 1:09:00.920 couple of years ago, he Booth began to sort of 1:09:00.960 --> 1:09:04.439 fixate on me as this figure and this avatar for 1:09:04.960 --> 1:09:08.120 everything that they didn't like about you know, traditional media 1:09:08.280 --> 1:09:10.360 or which is very ironic because I'm the least traditional 1:09:10.360 --> 1:09:15.280 media person or the tech industry or whatever, um And 1:09:15.280 --> 1:09:18.200 and they kind of just started using me as this 1:09:18.320 --> 1:09:21.760 like stand in right for like the liberal media or 1:09:21.960 --> 1:09:24.600 whatever they don't like that day. Much of it is 1:09:24.680 --> 1:09:26.560 rooted in misogyny. I mean, if you look at the 1:09:26.600 --> 1:09:29.559 attacks against me, it is the vast majority are just 1:09:29.680 --> 1:09:32.760 deeply misogynistic. And I think a lot of women tech 1:09:32.840 --> 1:09:35.720 reporters specifically get this. A lot of my friends went 1:09:35.720 --> 1:09:38.720 through gamer Gate. UM. I don't know how familiar audiences 1:09:38.760 --> 1:09:41.880 with gamer Gate, but it was this hate campaign against women, 1:09:42.240 --> 1:09:46.240 um tech and gaming journalists and sort of against diversity 1:09:46.280 --> 1:09:48.680 in games coverage in general. In the first half of 1:09:48.680 --> 1:09:52.040 the ten UM spent almost ten years actually since gamer Gate, 1:09:52.120 --> 1:09:54.840 and I think that the broader public still does not 1:09:54.960 --> 1:09:58.160 understand how these things work, and so they see things 1:09:58.240 --> 1:10:01.080 like Tucker you know, ranting at me or Fox News 1:10:01.080 --> 1:10:03.120 doing these daily stories about me, and they think, Wow, 1:10:03.160 --> 1:10:07.600 she's controversial. They never actually dig into it and realize that, like, 1:10:08.240 --> 1:10:10.320 most of this is bullshit. I mean, have I like 1:10:10.520 --> 1:10:12.880 done stupid things of the pasture. I'm trying to think 1:10:12.920 --> 1:10:14.000 of what I've done. I don't know. I think I've 1:10:14.000 --> 1:10:16.920 said I hate America and some stuff like that, maybe 1:10:16.960 --> 1:10:20.240 once or twice, but like, UM, you know, most of 1:10:20.240 --> 1:10:23.720 it's just manufactured outrage and UM putting words in my 1:10:23.760 --> 1:10:27.320 mouth or misrepresenting me. And I think, UM, that has 1:10:27.320 --> 1:10:28.880 been really hard to deal with, and it's really hard 1:10:28.920 --> 1:10:31.400 to deal with. It's really the only people that get 1:10:31.439 --> 1:10:34.559 it are celebrities. Like I've found that the only people 1:10:34.560 --> 1:10:36.880 that I feel like I can talk to who really 1:10:36.960 --> 1:10:41.679 understand seeing this image of themselves projected back to them 1:10:41.720 --> 1:10:44.160 through the media that's just so off base with how 1:10:44.200 --> 1:10:46.880 they really are, what really happened, or are famous people 1:10:46.920 --> 1:10:50.840 that they deal with it every day. UM, And I 1:10:50.880 --> 1:10:53.120 don't consider myself as celebrities. So I think it's hard, 1:10:53.240 --> 1:10:54.960 you know, it's hard to kind of deal with that. 1:10:55.000 --> 1:10:58.280 I'm not some a less movie star with a pr team. 1:10:58.320 --> 1:11:02.320 It's it's just me. And oh it's hard, and it's 1:11:02.360 --> 1:11:04.519 it's really hard. This stuff with my family is really hard. 1:11:04.560 --> 1:11:08.600 I mean, having people, um, you know, chow up to 1:11:08.640 --> 1:11:11.400 my parents house and swapped my parents and and attack 1:11:11.479 --> 1:11:14.280 my family members and and my friends and threatened my friends. 1:11:14.280 --> 1:11:16.040 I mean, that's been the hardest part that because I 1:11:16.080 --> 1:11:20.880 feel like I can't protect them. So anyway, that's why 1:11:20.880 --> 1:11:24.360 I'm more careful about, you know, even saying who I'm with. 1:11:24.400 --> 1:11:27.719 I don't want people mapping my social circle or things 1:11:27.760 --> 1:11:30.040 like that. I just would rather keep it all private. 1:11:30.840 --> 1:11:34.040 So what do you think when Tucker started to mention you, 1:11:36.400 --> 1:11:38.400 It was really I mean when it first started to 1:11:38.439 --> 1:11:42.080 happen a couple of years ago, it was really, Um, 1:11:42.120 --> 1:11:44.519 I was so upset. I mean it really it really. 1:11:44.520 --> 1:11:47.560 I was getting suddenly a level of hate and attacks 1:11:47.640 --> 1:11:50.080 and it's not just Tucker. I think Tucker is kind 1:11:50.120 --> 1:11:54.000 of the peak of this whole ecosystem. Um, but it 1:11:54.040 --> 1:11:55.759 was it was hard to deal with and it was overwhelming, 1:11:55.800 --> 1:11:58.200 and suddenly I was getting you know, I changed my 1:11:58.200 --> 1:12:02.760 phone number, like I was getting so much hate on 1:12:02.840 --> 1:12:05.840 every platform and having people attack my relatives, and it 1:12:05.920 --> 1:12:07.840 was hard. Now I've been able to deal with it. 1:12:07.880 --> 1:12:09.800 Now I'm like, oh god, he's on another one. You know, 1:12:09.880 --> 1:12:12.439 I kind of treated like a YouTuber basically in my mind, 1:12:12.560 --> 1:12:14.760 like you know, when a YouTuber makes a video about me, 1:12:14.800 --> 1:12:18.200 I'm like, whatever, I'm so used to this by now. Um, 1:12:18.320 --> 1:12:20.479 And I started to feel that way a little bit 1:12:20.520 --> 1:12:22.639 about the right wing media. But I spend a lot 1:12:22.680 --> 1:12:25.439 of time trying to educate people, writing the stories that 1:12:25.479 --> 1:12:29.080 I do about online harassment and being a voice in 1:12:29.120 --> 1:12:32.519 the industry to try and help people understand what a 1:12:32.560 --> 1:12:35.920 smear campaign looks like. You know, this is manipulating someone's 1:12:35.960 --> 1:12:39.360 sco results, this is planting stories about them, this is 1:12:39.640 --> 1:12:42.280 you know, last year, I dealt with a bot um 1:12:42.320 --> 1:12:46.360 somebody you know how basically use bots to send hundreds 1:12:46.439 --> 1:12:49.439 of thousands of messages to every single person that follows me, 1:12:49.479 --> 1:12:52.840 and most people have follow Washington Post um messages about 1:12:52.880 --> 1:12:54.720 me just sort of lying about me, saying that I'm 1:12:54.760 --> 1:12:57.440 going to be fired, and I was, you know, controversial 1:12:57.479 --> 1:13:00.840 at the times. All the stuff that's completely untrue. UM. 1:13:00.960 --> 1:13:03.479 And you know, there's just there's a lot of that 1:13:03.479 --> 1:13:05.880 stuff that people don't understand what a smear campaign looks like. 1:13:05.880 --> 1:13:07.639 They think, oh, it's just some mean tweets. I don't 1:13:07.680 --> 1:13:09.400 care about me and tweets. I don't even see mean tweets. 1:13:09.439 --> 1:13:12.439 I have like all my filters on UM. But this 1:13:12.560 --> 1:13:15.479 other stuff is very real, I mean very real threats. 1:13:15.520 --> 1:13:17.120 I have to have security when I go to public 1:13:17.120 --> 1:13:18.840 events a lot of the times now because these people 1:13:18.880 --> 1:13:25.200 have physically, you know, tried to show up and physically army. Okay. 1:13:25.800 --> 1:13:29.919 One other area that you're very vocal about is COVID 1:13:30.080 --> 1:13:39.720 nineteen vaccinations. Everybody gets vaccinated. Everybody. Also it says you 1:13:39.760 --> 1:13:44.360 have an underlying immune condition. Is that correct? Yes, I'm 1:13:44.400 --> 1:13:48.639 severely immuto compromised. UM. So I care a lot about UM, 1:13:48.680 --> 1:13:52.320 you know, advocating for people like myself that are you know, 1:13:52.400 --> 1:13:56.120 not able to you know that we we can't operate 1:13:56.120 --> 1:13:58.599 in the world UM the same way that that many 1:13:58.640 --> 1:14:00.920 others feel that they can and UM. You know, I 1:14:00.960 --> 1:14:04.240 think for disabled people throughout this pandemic, it's been really hard. 1:14:04.320 --> 1:14:07.440 A lot of disabled people are still at home shielding 1:14:07.680 --> 1:14:11.120 UM or they've been forced back into really unsafe work environments, 1:14:11.240 --> 1:14:13.599 UM having to put their health at risk. I've lost, 1:14:14.000 --> 1:14:16.040 you know, several people that I was very close to 1:14:16.040 --> 1:14:19.360 to COVID. UM. It's it's ongoing. I have, you know, 1:14:19.520 --> 1:14:22.040 somebody very close to me as the hospital right now, 1:14:22.600 --> 1:14:26.040 UM sick. And so I think it's just really really 1:14:26.080 --> 1:14:30.360 important for members of the media to understand and remember that. 1:14:30.439 --> 1:14:33.120 I think the problem with a lot of people, especially 1:14:33.120 --> 1:14:36.240 in traditional media, these really nice, cushy jobs. You know, 1:14:36.240 --> 1:14:38.200 they're able to go to their at Hampton's house or 1:14:38.320 --> 1:14:43.200 Upstate New York during COVID and check out and be like, oh, 1:14:43.240 --> 1:14:45.559 you know, everything's fine, I got the vaccine, I'm done. 1:14:46.200 --> 1:14:48.800 What they don't realize is there's thousands of people still 1:14:48.840 --> 1:14:50.719 dying a week. I mean, I think the Washington Post 1:14:50.760 --> 1:14:54.479 has done such great health reporting. Um Dan Diamond amazing 1:14:54.479 --> 1:14:58.519 health reporter. We have Amanda Morris who covers disability issues 1:14:58.520 --> 1:15:00.840 for the Post now, and both of them have just 1:15:00.880 --> 1:15:03.920 done such great work kind of highlighting this. But I 1:15:04.000 --> 1:15:07.519 try to always remember, always remind use my platform to 1:15:07.560 --> 1:15:11.479 remind other people what it's like for those who don't 1:15:11.520 --> 1:15:14.920 have the same privileges and opportunities you know, someone like me, 1:15:15.600 --> 1:15:17.680 I don't have the same protection against COVID. I mean, 1:15:17.680 --> 1:15:20.680 I've had as many vaccines as you can possibly get, 1:15:20.720 --> 1:15:23.240 and I God bless them, but they do not they 1:15:23.240 --> 1:15:26.080 are not equally protective for all of us. Um of 1:15:26.120 --> 1:15:28.280 course I got evy shells as well, but now we 1:15:28.320 --> 1:15:32.680 know that evy shell doesn't protecting. I have a similar situation. 1:15:32.760 --> 1:15:34.800 So I'm just gonna go here for a second. So 1:15:34.840 --> 1:15:40.000 what exactly is the issue that you know you're not 1:15:40.080 --> 1:15:42.599 making antibodies because you have a treatment for b sells, 1:15:42.640 --> 1:15:44.920 So but I can't I definitely can't get into my 1:15:45.240 --> 1:15:51.200 personal health stuff that I take the treatment. I take 1:15:51.240 --> 1:15:54.960 a treatment that wipes out all your B cells, and 1:15:55.560 --> 1:15:59.280 therefore the vaccines didn't work, and I got evy shelled. 1:15:59.320 --> 1:16:02.000 I got the one before that, which was didn't work 1:16:02.040 --> 1:16:06.040 for a macron, and eventually my B cells came back 1:16:06.520 --> 1:16:09.360 and I got three more vaccines. But it was I 1:16:09.400 --> 1:16:11.680 was living, you know, off the grid for two and 1:16:11.760 --> 1:16:16.200 a half years. But just to segue to another topic, 1:16:16.800 --> 1:16:20.560 and you mentioned it earlier, you came to my attention 1:16:20.600 --> 1:16:25.720 primarily you're reporting on the influencers, which I've always found interesting. 1:16:26.720 --> 1:16:29.840 The first influencer that I really became interested in was 1:16:29.920 --> 1:16:33.240 this one, Jena Marbles, and what I noticed, You know, 1:16:33.320 --> 1:16:37.400 with all these influencers who are not expressing. Let me 1:16:37.439 --> 1:16:41.800 back up a little bit. The entertainment business, like the 1:16:41.840 --> 1:16:46.559 major media business, is always one step behind, and they 1:16:46.640 --> 1:16:50.559 think they can always come in and clean up. This 1:16:50.640 --> 1:16:54.880 is like TikTok Records are bourbon on TikTok and they 1:16:54.880 --> 1:16:58.679 want to manipulate the market, which at the time they can't, 1:16:59.000 --> 1:17:02.000 and they believe they could. Anybody blows up on TikTok 1:17:02.280 --> 1:17:06.519 will sign with them. That's I want to go into 1:17:06.560 --> 1:17:11.639 depth there. And switching gears. They were under the uh 1:17:11.680 --> 1:17:17.520 they believed since these online influencers had so many followers, 1:17:18.040 --> 1:17:23.960 they would translate to traditional media. Okay, uh, you know 1:17:24.000 --> 1:17:27.439 there's one of them, uh, TikTok you probably remember the name, 1:17:27.479 --> 1:17:29.799 has their own TV show just like no one is watching. 1:17:30.080 --> 1:17:32.840 But yeah, right, I don't want to go too far, 1:17:32.920 --> 1:17:35.760 but I want to talk about two elements. One that 1:17:35.920 --> 1:17:38.000 since most of these people don't have it in an 1:17:38.000 --> 1:17:43.600 eate talent, they are producing content two seven to the 1:17:43.600 --> 1:17:48.400 point where they ultimately burn themselves out and abandoned the paradigm. 1:17:48.600 --> 1:17:55.599 Two there is a whole house slash factory of producing content. 1:17:55.680 --> 1:17:57.720 I know that those are not wholly related, but why 1:17:57.720 --> 1:18:01.599 don't you start there? Yes, Um, you know, I think, 1:18:01.840 --> 1:18:04.440 as you mentioned, Bob, it's really hard for these influencers 1:18:04.479 --> 1:18:09.280 because they burn themselves out and these platforms reward that. 1:18:09.320 --> 1:18:13.799 I mean, these platforms push people into seven work schedules. 1:18:13.840 --> 1:18:15.680 You can't take a break. If you don't post, you're 1:18:15.680 --> 1:18:19.200 not monetizing. Um. And I think that that that stunds 1:18:19.240 --> 1:18:21.640 a lot of creativity, and I think it leads to 1:18:21.760 --> 1:18:25.320 burn out. Um. And I think that the traditional entertainment 1:18:25.320 --> 1:18:28.920 industry is still learning how to leverage these people. Um. 1:18:28.960 --> 1:18:31.400 I think it did not work necessarily to put them 1:18:31.400 --> 1:18:33.559 in traditional movies. As you said, a lot of these 1:18:33.560 --> 1:18:37.320 people are not the most talented actors necessarily. I would 1:18:37.360 --> 1:18:41.720 say music as an area that you know has worked out. 1:18:41.760 --> 1:18:44.880 I mean somebody like Olivia Rodrigo or Shawn Mendez. There's 1:18:44.880 --> 1:18:46.920 a lot of like I mean Justin Bieber, I guess 1:18:46.920 --> 1:18:50.360 came off YouTube, Like there are there are success stories there. Um, 1:18:50.400 --> 1:18:53.759 But I think it's just it's a lot of traditional 1:18:53.880 --> 1:18:55.559 entertainment is still kind of like what do we do 1:18:55.600 --> 1:18:57.519 with these people? And then these people are trying to 1:18:57.600 --> 1:19:01.280 kind of like build their own media companies and figure 1:19:01.280 --> 1:19:03.800 out their own strategy and do they even want to 1:19:03.800 --> 1:19:06.479 be in traditional Hollywood? Does that even make sense? Right? 1:19:07.080 --> 1:19:08.479 So I think it's kind of I don't know, it's 1:19:08.479 --> 1:19:12.880 all evolving. Okay, So what about the creator houses and 1:19:13.000 --> 1:19:18.000 the situation of groups of influencers at this point in time? Yes, um, 1:19:18.240 --> 1:19:20.960 so creator houses have been a thing since two thousand nine. 1:19:21.200 --> 1:19:25.439 Um we had the first content creator house called The Station, 1:19:25.479 --> 1:19:28.519 which ended up becoming Maker Studios UM. And pretty much 1:19:28.520 --> 1:19:32.000 ever since then, we've we've had you know, creative content 1:19:32.080 --> 1:19:34.840 houses UM all over l A, also Atlanta at other 1:19:34.920 --> 1:19:38.479 places to Houston. UM. And people live together because it 1:19:38.560 --> 1:19:41.720 makes sense, right you're young. I think young creative people 1:19:41.760 --> 1:19:44.000 always want to live together. But in this case it 1:19:44.479 --> 1:19:47.479 sort of has a direct financial incentive because you can 1:19:47.520 --> 1:19:50.160 collaborate and kind of grow as a group and brand 1:19:50.200 --> 1:19:53.640 yourself that way. It really I think it really that 1:19:53.720 --> 1:19:56.559 whole like culture really exploded into the mainstream with the 1:19:56.600 --> 1:19:59.760 Hype House and TikTok and I think in one you 1:19:59.800 --> 1:20:01.680 saw so many of these houses, and you had all 1:20:01.720 --> 1:20:04.760 these management companies starting these houses and then now, I 1:20:04.760 --> 1:20:08.960 think lately is cooled off because people realized a lot 1:20:09.000 --> 1:20:11.200 of these management companies realize that these houses are actually 1:20:11.240 --> 1:20:14.479 just like huge liabilities. Um. Anytime you have a house 1:20:14.520 --> 1:20:18.120 full of young people, it's not the easiest thing to manage. 1:20:18.160 --> 1:20:20.160 So um. You know. So you're seeing a lot of 1:20:20.200 --> 1:20:23.280 management companies pulled back. But young people will always live 1:20:23.320 --> 1:20:27.679 together in Hollywood. Okay, you yourself moved from the East 1:20:27.680 --> 1:20:30.000 Coast to the West coast to be closer to this. Yes, 1:20:30.439 --> 1:20:33.000 I'm a New Yorker for life, But I have to 1:20:33.000 --> 1:20:36.559 say I love l A. And then and why do you? 1:20:36.720 --> 1:20:38.759 Why do you? Why do you love l A? Well, 1:20:38.800 --> 1:20:41.639 I have a lot of family in California. Um, and 1:20:41.760 --> 1:20:43.920 I had spent a bunch of time in California. I 1:20:43.960 --> 1:20:45.479 mean I was always here. I was here for like 1:20:45.880 --> 1:20:49.280 several months in twenty nineteen and months like I've always 1:20:49.360 --> 1:20:52.439 I was out here for like nine months at one point, uh, 1:20:52.600 --> 1:20:55.040 probably seven years ago. I've I've almost moved here, and 1:20:55.080 --> 1:20:57.200 I've spent a lot of time here, But it wasn't 1:20:57.240 --> 1:20:59.639 until I lived in l A full time. I feel 1:20:59.640 --> 1:21:02.640 like that I really appreciated the city and got to 1:21:02.680 --> 1:21:05.160 see so many more sides of it, like when you 1:21:05.360 --> 1:21:08.800 come in and you're staying downtown or you're just staying 1:21:08.800 --> 1:21:10.599 in West Hollywood and you're just going to a bunch 1:21:10.600 --> 1:21:13.360 of influencer events, Like, that's not the way to like 1:21:13.439 --> 1:21:17.719 experience l A. So now that I live here, I'm like, oh, 1:21:17.720 --> 1:21:20.800 this is actually great, and there's a lot of cool 1:21:20.800 --> 1:21:24.479 people here and the weather I mean well, I mean, 1:21:24.520 --> 1:21:26.599 you know, l A is a shitty tourist town, which 1:21:26.640 --> 1:21:29.040 is what you're referencing there. If you come, let me 1:21:29.080 --> 1:21:31.680 hit the highlights. And you know, New Yorker comes to 1:21:31.840 --> 1:21:35.080 l A and says, you know, hey, you know, I 1:21:35.120 --> 1:21:37.920 don't get it. There's not the cultural stuff, there's not 1:21:38.040 --> 1:21:41.759 the street life. I'd rather live in New York. And 1:21:42.120 --> 1:21:44.880 Angelino goes to New York, this greatest city in the world, 1:21:45.240 --> 1:21:49.800 but I'd rather live in l A. I aspire to 1:21:49.800 --> 1:21:53.320 be bi coastal. That would be really nice. Uh not 1:21:53.720 --> 1:21:56.040 you know there yet, but I don't know. I mean, 1:21:56.040 --> 1:21:59.840 it's it's great out here. In my California relatives are 1:21:59.840 --> 1:22:03.000 all feeling very smug. I think about the fact that 1:22:03.040 --> 1:22:08.720 I have become I've become such a l A booster. Okay, Now, 1:22:09.200 --> 1:22:11.479 in hip hop there was a New York scene, l 1:22:11.520 --> 1:22:15.439 A scene, Atlanta scene and talking to Joe Coscarelli, you 1:22:15.479 --> 1:22:20.479 know he's talking about scenes in Sacramento, when in Idaho. Um, 1:22:20.600 --> 1:22:25.480 when it comes to the creator economy, obviously people are everywhere, 1:22:25.800 --> 1:22:28.880 But are Los Angeles and you said to a degree Atlanta, 1:22:28.880 --> 1:22:31.360 are those still very much the hot beds in the 1:22:31.400 --> 1:22:35.120 major places? Yeah? I think Um, I mean I think 1:22:35.479 --> 1:22:38.840 l A, New York, Atlanta to a lesser extent, maybe 1:22:38.840 --> 1:22:42.520 like Houston and Orlando, like some cities in Florida, Miami. 1:22:43.760 --> 1:22:46.960 I mean, anywhere you have like creative people, it's it's 1:22:46.960 --> 1:22:49.920 going to be that. That's that's where the content creator 1:22:50.200 --> 1:22:52.400 industry is definitely like this this where the hubs are 1:22:52.840 --> 1:22:54.960 really New York and l A for the brands, for 1:22:55.040 --> 1:22:57.879 the managers, for the agents, but then you have lifestyle 1:22:57.920 --> 1:23:00.559 influencers all over. I mean, this shift in media towards 1:23:01.160 --> 1:23:04.880 personality driven media is not something that's just happening with Tiktoker's. 1:23:05.040 --> 1:23:07.719 I mean a lot of parents, for instance, might follow 1:23:07.760 --> 1:23:11.160 like a recipe in you know, influencers somewhere on TikTok 1:23:11.240 --> 1:23:14.040 or Instagram. That person might live in Charlotte, North Carolina, 1:23:14.120 --> 1:23:17.080 you know, there's a lot of people kind of all 1:23:17.080 --> 1:23:20.240 over moving into this line of work. But I do 1:23:20.320 --> 1:23:21.960 think that New York and l A or where it's 1:23:21.960 --> 1:23:26.559 concentrated in Atlanta, because those are the entertainment hubs, since 1:23:26.600 --> 1:23:29.400 you're so close to it. You know, people say that 1:23:29.520 --> 1:23:31.840 they want to be in the music business. The first 1:23:31.840 --> 1:23:34.320 thing is I tell them is no, you don't want 1:23:34.360 --> 1:23:38.160 to be in the med You know, it's incredibly hard 1:23:38.200 --> 1:23:42.040 work to get in and it's almost impossible to stay in. So, 1:23:42.200 --> 1:23:46.599 having observed all these influencers, what would you tell to someone, Oh, 1:23:46.720 --> 1:23:48.080 you know, because I'm sure you get the same thing 1:23:48.080 --> 1:23:49.880 I get. Somebody says, oh, my kid, they got X 1:23:50.000 --> 1:23:52.280 number of followers, blah blah blah. What would you tell 1:23:52.280 --> 1:23:55.519 that person? Probably everything you tell people in the music industry. 1:23:55.560 --> 1:23:58.679 It's ten times harder than you think. Um, it's it's 1:23:58.760 --> 1:24:00.759 really hard. I mean people are always like, oh, Taylor, 1:24:00.800 --> 1:24:04.040 why aren't you independent? Because I know exactly how hard 1:24:04.080 --> 1:24:07.000 it is, um to do that. It's like you don't 1:24:07.040 --> 1:24:10.240 have healthcare, you know, like you're everything is on you. 1:24:10.240 --> 1:24:14.400 You're basically running a small business and most small businesses fail, right, Um, 1:24:14.479 --> 1:24:16.840 And so I think it's just it's an incredible amount 1:24:16.880 --> 1:24:19.280 of pressure. You have to really be able to handle it. 1:24:19.680 --> 1:24:22.080 You have to be able to manage the business part 1:24:22.280 --> 1:24:24.720 that the public. I mean, you're a public figure when 1:24:24.720 --> 1:24:27.960 you become an influencer, get a following, and that's extremely 1:24:28.000 --> 1:24:31.519 difficult to manage. Um. It's just it's hard. It's way 1:24:31.560 --> 1:24:34.400 harder than you think. And I would say, if you 1:24:34.439 --> 1:24:36.840 have an option to do something more stable, you know, 1:24:36.920 --> 1:24:41.000 keep that in your back pocket always. But okay, we 1:24:41.040 --> 1:24:44.120 always read about the people making big money. How many 1:24:44.200 --> 1:24:48.360 people are really making big money, only the top one percent. 1:24:48.520 --> 1:24:50.519 I mean, that's the other thing that I think is 1:24:50.640 --> 1:24:54.240 very misconstrued is that people see it's like seeing you know, 1:24:54.439 --> 1:24:57.720 it's classic Hollywood, right, Like you see Jennifer Aniston and 1:24:57.760 --> 1:25:01.000 George Clooney and these actor and you think, well, that's 1:25:01.040 --> 1:25:03.080 what it is, you know, to act and be in Hollywood, 1:25:03.080 --> 1:25:05.240 and then you realize it's actually going, you know, to 1:25:05.880 --> 1:25:08.840 forty seven auditions for Dorito's commercial that you probably won't 1:25:08.840 --> 1:25:11.479 even get. So it's like, you know, it's like that. 1:25:11.520 --> 1:25:13.799 But on the internet, it's like you see Mr Beast, 1:25:13.880 --> 1:25:16.719 you see Charlie Demilio making you know, tens of millions 1:25:16.720 --> 1:25:19.479 of dollars a year. But the reality is is that 1:25:19.600 --> 1:25:23.040 you will probably make nothing close to that, and it's 1:25:23.439 --> 1:25:26.400 very hard and it's very unstable in a lot of ways. 1:25:26.439 --> 1:25:29.880 I mean, the traditional industry is unstable in different ways. 1:25:29.880 --> 1:25:32.200 So I would never suggest anybody go into that either. 1:25:32.400 --> 1:25:34.559 But um, I just think you have to be clear 1:25:34.600 --> 1:25:45.360 eyed about that stuff. Okay, people understand the monetization on 1:25:45.439 --> 1:25:51.439 YouTube their ads. Person who has the channel or the 1:25:51.479 --> 1:25:54.840 influence you gets a percentage of the ads. How exactly 1:25:54.840 --> 1:25:58.840 are people monetizing on TikTok. And an addition, of course, 1:25:58.880 --> 1:26:01.840 one of the great things of TikTok is you can 1:26:01.880 --> 1:26:05.280 be nobody and be boosted to a lot of people, 1:26:05.320 --> 1:26:09.000 which doesn't happen on YouTube. Conversely, you can be somebody 1:26:09.000 --> 1:26:12.920 and not be boosted more. Tell me more about that 1:26:13.000 --> 1:26:15.960 in the monetization on TikTok. Well, I would say, first 1:26:15.960 --> 1:26:18.360 of all, you know, ads are not the only way 1:26:18.360 --> 1:26:20.599 that people make money on YouTube, actually less and less. 1:26:20.640 --> 1:26:23.320 So people make a lot of money through merch and 1:26:23.360 --> 1:26:26.559 through productizing themselves and that's something you see on TikTok too. 1:26:26.640 --> 1:26:29.400 So people do make money through ads on TikTok, whether 1:26:29.439 --> 1:26:31.559 it's through the creator. You know, their version of like 1:26:31.560 --> 1:26:35.880 the YouTube Partner program is the UM the TikTok Creator 1:26:35.920 --> 1:26:39.040 fund UM. It functions a little bit differently. It's just 1:26:39.120 --> 1:26:41.240 one pot of money. But basically, you know, you can 1:26:41.280 --> 1:26:43.680 get paid based if you get enough views on your TikTok's. 1:26:43.720 --> 1:26:45.800 And then also you're doing ads that our native ads. 1:26:45.880 --> 1:26:48.760 So say, you know, Clorox pays you to shout out 1:26:48.800 --> 1:26:50.599 Clorox in the video or put it in the back 1:26:50.640 --> 1:26:53.720 of one of your TikTok's. Um, those are sort of 1:26:53.720 --> 1:26:55.240 lots that. There are lots of different revenue models in 1:26:55.280 --> 1:27:00.000 terms of advertising, and then um, e commerce and products 1:27:00.000 --> 1:27:01.439 is how a lot of people make money too. So 1:27:01.600 --> 1:27:05.760 merch lines um, Amazon storefronts where any time and you 1:27:05.760 --> 1:27:08.880 know somebody, for instance, Lauren Wolf, this great lifestyle creator 1:27:08.920 --> 1:27:11.960 in New York, part of the Amazon Creator program. If 1:27:12.000 --> 1:27:14.000 I go, you know, click, I'm like, wow, I love 1:27:14.000 --> 1:27:16.200 that dress she's wearing. I click on her Amazon shop 1:27:16.200 --> 1:27:19.000 in her bio, and I buy that dress from Amazon. 1:27:19.360 --> 1:27:23.120 She'll get a percentage of that. So affiliate revenue UM 1:27:23.160 --> 1:27:26.080 and a million other ways. I mean, people charge for shoutouts, 1:27:26.560 --> 1:27:29.439 people charge for comments. Like, there's lots of different things 1:27:29.479 --> 1:27:31.519 that people can do to make money, and I think 1:27:31.560 --> 1:27:35.439 it's about developing a sustainable revenue model for yourself. Some 1:27:35.479 --> 1:27:38.639 people also don't even make money on YouTube or TikTok 1:27:38.720 --> 1:27:40.599 and they make it all on Patreon, right, they just 1:27:40.640 --> 1:27:45.040 have a really dedicated audience that will pay that subscription revenue. Okay. Uh. 1:27:45.439 --> 1:27:48.040 I grew up in a different era where credibility was 1:27:48.240 --> 1:27:51.600 king and people said no, Hey, people don't say no 1:27:51.680 --> 1:27:55.280 to anything. These days, the goals if you get any 1:27:55.360 --> 1:27:59.519 traction to become a brand. But when I look at 1:27:59.560 --> 1:28:03.080 the very site that people with longevity, it's still the 1:28:03.120 --> 1:28:06.960 people who don't sell out and have credibility. What's your 1:28:07.040 --> 1:28:10.000 viewpoint on that? Um, I think you're right. I mean, 1:28:10.040 --> 1:28:12.280 you know what, somebody like Dude Perfect on YouTube, that 1:28:12.400 --> 1:28:14.639 group and a few their sports YouTube first, Like, that's 1:28:14.680 --> 1:28:17.599 a really good example of a group that has not 1:28:17.680 --> 1:28:20.320 sold out like they have. They have turned down so 1:28:20.400 --> 1:28:22.439 much stuff that they could have done and cheapened out 1:28:22.439 --> 1:28:24.960 their brand for and they never have. Like they've never 1:28:25.000 --> 1:28:27.080 done the gambling ads or that type of stuff. As 1:28:27.120 --> 1:28:29.400 far as I know, they've been creating contents the two 1:28:29.439 --> 1:28:33.040 thousand nine. They've built a massive media company that rivals 1:28:33.680 --> 1:28:37.080 any traditional sports media company in a lot of ways. Um, 1:28:37.120 --> 1:28:39.880 so yeah, I think, but but but Bob, that's so hard. 1:28:39.920 --> 1:28:44.080 As we know, everybody wants easy money. You make one, 1:28:44.320 --> 1:28:46.519 you know, you're like, oh, I'll make one, compromise here, 1:28:46.640 --> 1:28:50.479 and then you compromise here, and then suddenly I'm less 1:28:50.520 --> 1:28:54.080 worried about that side of it. But when I see 1:28:54.240 --> 1:28:58.200 somebody hawking a product, if I see him, you know, 1:28:58.840 --> 1:29:02.040 I'm immediately down them. Because this is one thing that 1:29:02.080 --> 1:29:05.639 the entertainment business is still trying to cope with as 1:29:05.600 --> 1:29:08.639 a result of the Internet, is that in a world 1:29:08.640 --> 1:29:12.560 of unlimited product, consumers king and they have no loyalties. 1:29:13.280 --> 1:29:17.160 So I find free just to finish my statement forgetting 1:29:17.160 --> 1:29:21.400 someone who's selling clothing or other that whatever. Someone who says, 1:29:21.439 --> 1:29:24.360 well you just follow me for me, but uh, you know, 1:29:24.439 --> 1:29:27.640 by vote of vitamin water or whatever you ultimately you 1:29:27.720 --> 1:29:31.479 know it says, well, I'd really rather watch somebody else. Yeah, 1:29:31.520 --> 1:29:33.960 I mean, I think it's interesting. It depends on how 1:29:34.000 --> 1:29:37.479 aligned that product is with the creator. So in the 1:29:37.680 --> 1:29:40.160 second half of the tens, which were sort of the 1:29:40.200 --> 1:29:42.280 golden age of spa Con, that's when people were just 1:29:42.360 --> 1:29:45.000 kind of throwing money at influencers with big audiences because 1:29:45.000 --> 1:29:47.040 they didn't have any sense of like targeted marketing. You 1:29:47.040 --> 1:29:49.200 were getting a lot of those mismatches. That's where like 1:29:49.479 --> 1:29:54.160 suddenly everyone was hawking the Gummy Bear hair vitamins or whatever. 1:29:54.800 --> 1:29:58.080 That's right. That's a bad experience for the fan because 1:29:58.080 --> 1:30:00.479 the fans like, why am I Like, yeah, why are 1:30:00.520 --> 1:30:04.040 you hawking this? However, I'll say somebody, you know, there's 1:30:04.120 --> 1:30:07.680 somebody like Addison easter Lane, Addison ray On TikTok right, 1:30:07.720 --> 1:30:10.559 like she's you know, talked about her skincare journey. She 1:30:10.600 --> 1:30:13.439 launched the skincare line. It's makeup, it's she can kind 1:30:13.439 --> 1:30:15.240 of work it into her content in a way that 1:30:15.280 --> 1:30:18.000 feels organic, and it's her brand. It has her name 1:30:18.040 --> 1:30:22.040 on it. So people feel a little bit more. That 1:30:22.080 --> 1:30:24.880 seems to be the way that a better way to 1:30:24.920 --> 1:30:27.160 make money. I guess, Well, let me just if you're 1:30:27.200 --> 1:30:30.280 selling something based on your identity, I get it. Yeah, 1:30:30.680 --> 1:30:34.240 But even so, most people are not. They're saying, hey, 1:30:34.280 --> 1:30:37.400 this this brand wants to give me money, I'll take 1:30:37.439 --> 1:30:40.000 the money. I'll do what they want. Well, I will 1:30:40.040 --> 1:30:43.960 say most most influencers will not take the money unless 1:30:44.040 --> 1:30:46.439 it aligns with their audience, and most brands don't want 1:30:46.439 --> 1:30:48.840 to pay that money because brands want an r o I, 1:30:49.320 --> 1:30:51.600 so they want to know do you have the demographic 1:30:51.640 --> 1:30:54.439 that we are trying to reach and and are you 1:30:54.479 --> 1:30:56.679 going to actually be able to convert? And if you're 1:30:56.680 --> 1:30:58.800 not going to convert those people, then the brand doesn't 1:30:58.800 --> 1:31:00.880 want to do the deal, and influencer doesn't want to 1:31:00.920 --> 1:31:02.800 do the deal because obvious a lot of times you too, 1:31:02.840 --> 1:31:04.880 you get like bonuses based on your conversions and stuff 1:31:04.880 --> 1:31:07.960 in your sales. So I think you're I think that 1:31:08.040 --> 1:31:10.000 was more of a problem a few years ago, and 1:31:10.080 --> 1:31:13.080 I think the industry is getting more and more sophisticated, 1:31:14.160 --> 1:31:16.880 just the way that when when remember Bob, when like 1:31:17.360 --> 1:31:19.920 banner ads started out, you still be getting these like 1:31:20.040 --> 1:31:22.280 randomit and now you get super targeted stuff. I think 1:31:22.320 --> 1:31:25.240 the same is happening. If you don't have a bad blocker, right, 1:31:26.640 --> 1:31:30.559 there's no a yet. Let's flip the story over to 1:31:30.600 --> 1:31:33.680 the advertiser themselves. There's a lot going on here. You 1:31:33.720 --> 1:31:38.200 have apples, Uh, change in the OS such that the 1:31:38.320 --> 1:31:42.840 users can't be tracked, uh Facebook there well, people the 1:31:42.920 --> 1:31:48.000 advertisers obviously want targeted ads what's the advertiser view point? Now? 1:31:48.040 --> 1:31:51.240 On one end we have Twitter, where the advertisers many 1:31:51.320 --> 1:31:53.880 have pulled back because they're worried about being associated with 1:31:53.960 --> 1:31:57.599 the bad actors the platform in general. On the other treme, 1:31:57.640 --> 1:32:00.240 we have TikTok. What's going on in the average tis 1:32:00.280 --> 1:32:03.320 in community these days? Oh gosh, yeah, I mean, I 1:32:03.320 --> 1:32:06.559 think advertisers are just The Twitter stuff is definitely thrown 1:32:06.600 --> 1:32:07.640 a lot of people for a loop, and a lot 1:32:07.680 --> 1:32:09.679 of people have just pulled their ads bed from Twitter. 1:32:10.240 --> 1:32:12.680 I think more and more a lot of advertisers too, 1:32:12.840 --> 1:32:16.040 are not fully pulling their money because they don't want 1:32:16.040 --> 1:32:17.840 to do it with the backlash from elon, so they've 1:32:17.920 --> 1:32:20.880 just cut it down to basically the minimum so that 1:32:20.960 --> 1:32:23.720 they can kind of like fade out and not you know, 1:32:23.800 --> 1:32:27.479 be caught in this press cycle. Um. I you know, 1:32:27.600 --> 1:32:32.240 I think that advertisers are just they're you know, Google 1:32:32.400 --> 1:32:34.559 and Facebook are still king for that type of stuff. 1:32:34.600 --> 1:32:36.479 And I think in terms of the influencer marketing world, 1:32:36.520 --> 1:32:38.679 they're still trying to figure out what's the most effective 1:32:38.680 --> 1:32:41.559 way to to market a product and a lot of 1:32:41.560 --> 1:32:44.639 that depends on the specific campaign. Um, but there's more. 1:32:44.680 --> 1:32:47.000 I mean, there's more options at these people's fingertips than 1:32:47.160 --> 1:32:50.280 than ever before. UM, I don't know, we're going into 1:32:50.320 --> 1:32:52.360 kind of like I think a recession or like a 1:32:52.360 --> 1:32:54.439 weird downturn. So I feel like a lot of people 1:32:54.439 --> 1:32:57.200 have pulled back on a lot of experimental type stuff 1:32:57.240 --> 1:33:00.600 they were doing even last year. Let's say I'm on 1:33:00.640 --> 1:33:06.439 TikTok and I have a notable number of followers. Am 1:33:06.479 --> 1:33:08.960 I just going to hear from the brands individually or 1:33:09.000 --> 1:33:12.759 to Most of these people have managers or agents, maybe 1:33:12.760 --> 1:33:18.559 even looking for brand opportunities. What's the landscape? Yeah, definitely. 1:33:18.640 --> 1:33:21.320 I think once you get a certain follower, a count 1:33:21.680 --> 1:33:24.519 or audience size, or you're getting in a decent amount 1:33:24.560 --> 1:33:27.200 of attention online, you're gonna start getting hit up by 1:33:27.240 --> 1:33:31.800 managers and agents. UM. Now, it's just like the music industry. 1:33:32.000 --> 1:33:35.360 It depends. There's a lot of dubious people out there 1:33:35.400 --> 1:33:38.479 that purport to be managers UM, that will sign you 1:33:38.520 --> 1:33:42.160 into really restrictive contracts and exploit you. And so I 1:33:42.200 --> 1:33:45.479 think that UM talent in any form needs to be 1:33:45.600 --> 1:33:48.400 very careful of that. UM. It's a huge problem on 1:33:48.400 --> 1:33:52.080 TikTok actually, UM. But there's also a lot of traditional 1:33:52.160 --> 1:33:54.400 industry players in the space right like U T A, 1:33:54.560 --> 1:33:57.200 wm ME, all all the big agencies, Brostein, all the 1:33:57.200 --> 1:34:00.400 big talent agencies also have you know, TikTok manage and 1:34:00.439 --> 1:34:02.080 so in those cases, those people will go out and 1:34:02.120 --> 1:34:04.600 solicit deals, and they're gonna solicit the bigger deals, and 1:34:04.600 --> 1:34:08.760 they're going to try and negotiate partnerships, bigger, you know, 1:34:09.240 --> 1:34:12.000 deeper kind of working relationships instead of just like hey, 1:34:12.200 --> 1:34:16.360 I send you product, you post for it, but you 1:34:16.400 --> 1:34:18.880 are I was talking to someone who says, well, you 1:34:18.920 --> 1:34:23.840 know they they heard from one advertiser and she got 1:34:23.880 --> 1:34:28.479 five thousand for this, and you know they talked another one. 1:34:28.920 --> 1:34:31.960 Can you make a living? Or those really few and 1:34:32.000 --> 1:34:34.680 far between where they're you know, brands just reaching out 1:34:34.760 --> 1:34:37.800 to individuals. Yeah, I mean, brands do reach out to 1:34:37.800 --> 1:34:40.479 individuals and exactly like you said, there's no like, there's 1:34:40.520 --> 1:34:46.280 no standard rate for anything. Everything is negotiable. Um. Analytics 1:34:46.280 --> 1:34:48.400 are not great on a lot of stuff like That's 1:34:48.400 --> 1:34:50.599 why people do focus on things like sales and affiliate 1:34:50.600 --> 1:34:53.680 revenue stuff. Um. But you, I mean, you certainly can 1:34:53.800 --> 1:34:55.800 make a living. It just depends on the audience that 1:34:55.840 --> 1:34:58.680 you've cultivated, the vertical that you've cultivated it in and 1:34:58.720 --> 1:35:01.160 you know, are you making family friendly content? Are you 1:35:01.240 --> 1:35:04.680 not making family friendly content that affects the advertisers that 1:35:04.720 --> 1:35:08.000 you can get the deals that you do. How loyal 1:35:08.040 --> 1:35:09.919 is your fan base? You can have millions of followers, 1:35:09.920 --> 1:35:12.920 but they're not that loyal versus having a hundred thousand 1:35:13.160 --> 1:35:15.760 true dedicated fans where they're paying you twenty dollars a 1:35:15.760 --> 1:35:19.799 month in subscription revenue. Right, So it just it really depends, 1:35:19.920 --> 1:35:24.439 and it's there's so many factors that play for each person. Okay, 1:35:24.520 --> 1:35:26.800 let's just go back to Twitter for a second. The 1:35:26.840 --> 1:35:30.679 amazing thing about the Internet, which most people were oldsters 1:35:30.720 --> 1:35:33.519 still don't understand, is it's is not a replica of 1:35:33.560 --> 1:35:37.439 the physical world. Physical world. You know, you might be 1:35:37.479 --> 1:35:40.439 able to drive ten miles and get a cheaper price, 1:35:40.520 --> 1:35:43.519 but your time is worth something, gas, etcetera. So we 1:35:43.600 --> 1:35:48.320 tend to have these behemoths in this world, Amazon, Google, 1:35:49.240 --> 1:35:53.680 So there's always backlash against the Amazon, and there's always 1:35:53.760 --> 1:35:57.280 people saying I'm deleting my account, deleting my account, and 1:35:57.320 --> 1:36:01.679 it makes no difference. Okay, so when we look at Twitter, 1:36:01.760 --> 1:36:04.560 I hear the same people and you hear about mastadon 1:36:04.680 --> 1:36:08.320 whatever blah blah. Is Twitter too big to fail? Let 1:36:08.320 --> 1:36:10.760 me kind of throw some other stuff in here. So 1:36:10.880 --> 1:36:14.800 Steve Jobs dies, Okay, the power of one individual when 1:36:14.800 --> 1:36:17.920 you can look at Trump and give that example how 1:36:17.960 --> 1:36:21.519 they can influence you know so many people. Steve Jobs 1:36:21.680 --> 1:36:26.439 was very much about Houston look ui interface, and since 1:36:26.560 --> 1:36:30.799 his death, we've moved backwards. They're more buttons. It's harder 1:36:30.840 --> 1:36:36.200 to use. That's one person. Okay, So Twitter, yes, if 1:36:36.280 --> 1:36:41.080 you want to be on the up to date news, certainly, uh, 1:36:41.280 --> 1:36:46.400 stuff that the major media reports that's there. Could Twitter 1:36:46.880 --> 1:36:51.519 ever be clips by another site because people leave or 1:36:51.640 --> 1:36:55.720 b but okay, it could be. Theoretically, you think it 1:36:55.760 --> 1:36:59.080 would happen. I think it's already happening with TikTok. I 1:36:59.120 --> 1:37:02.000 think that he huge part of what people would have 1:37:02.040 --> 1:37:04.439 gone to Twitter for. They're going to TikTok for now, 1:37:05.640 --> 1:37:09.480 just just slowly, because certainly there are a lot of politicals, 1:37:09.479 --> 1:37:14.080 a lot of major reporters on Twitter. Would they have 1:37:14.120 --> 1:37:17.400 a home on TikTok. There are a lot of reporters 1:37:17.400 --> 1:37:20.760 on on on TikTok too. It's just that it's it's 1:37:20.800 --> 1:37:23.679 like the shifts to digital. I don't know if you remember, 1:37:23.760 --> 1:37:27.920 but a big, a big controversy early in my career 1:37:27.920 --> 1:37:32.040 when I was a blogger was people saying our bloggers journalists, 1:37:32.120 --> 1:37:36.639 right do you remember that whole discussion so um and 1:37:36.640 --> 1:37:38.800 and people always were saying, oh, you know Taylor the rends, 1:37:38.840 --> 1:37:41.760 she's she's just a blogger. Um. And now I think 1:37:41.800 --> 1:37:44.240 we're seeing that with social platforms right where you see 1:37:44.240 --> 1:37:47.439 these journalists coming up on platforms native right, there's news 1:37:47.479 --> 1:37:50.800 content creators, journalists just working on YouTube or TikTok, and 1:37:50.840 --> 1:37:52.880 people are are sort of like, oh, you know, are 1:37:52.920 --> 1:37:55.200 they doing real journalism? Are they real journalists? Yes, they 1:37:55.240 --> 1:37:56.880 many of them are, and some of them are affiliated 1:37:56.920 --> 1:38:00.960 with mainstream media. Is um, will every quarter that succeeds 1:38:00.960 --> 1:38:03.439 on Twitter transfer over to TikTok or somethink? No, But 1:38:03.520 --> 1:38:06.080 I think a lot of them will move and and 1:38:06.120 --> 1:38:09.360 sort of discipate to other platforms. I don't. I'm not 1:38:09.439 --> 1:38:11.240 convinced that Twitter is going to die, by the way. 1:38:11.320 --> 1:38:13.720 I don't. I wouldn't like make that bet at all, 1:38:14.479 --> 1:38:17.759 But I do think that, like what people used Twitter 1:38:17.880 --> 1:38:22.120 for previously, they're using other platforms for more and more 1:38:23.360 --> 1:38:26.400 just to stay with Twitter for a second. When Twitter 1:38:26.520 --> 1:38:30.160 started you just had your regular flow. Then they have 1:38:30.280 --> 1:38:34.519 their algorithm where you can have your you know what 1:38:34.640 --> 1:38:37.879 they think you want to watch. Then they have their news, 1:38:37.920 --> 1:38:42.920 their trends, their lists. I don't Maybe I'm old school, 1:38:42.960 --> 1:38:45.439 but I don't find that stuff useful. I just find 1:38:45.439 --> 1:38:48.760 a traditional time based flow to be not that I 1:38:48.800 --> 1:38:50.960 don't check the other stuff, but the time based flow 1:38:50.960 --> 1:38:54.160 to be the most rewarding for me. What do you find? Yeah, 1:38:54.360 --> 1:38:57.000 I like the time being. I mean I actually prefer 1:38:57.040 --> 1:39:00.679 the algorithmic feed to the to the time based feed 1:39:00.680 --> 1:39:03.040 only because I wollow so many people. I follow eight 1:39:03.040 --> 1:39:05.719 thousand people because I restrict my replies. So I used 1:39:06.040 --> 1:39:09.200 Twitter a little bit in a weird way. But certainly, 1:39:09.320 --> 1:39:12.599 I mean, certainly, the feed is the core experience. Um, 1:39:12.640 --> 1:39:15.960 I love Twitter. Spaces Trending needs to die. I mean, 1:39:16.600 --> 1:39:18.360 I hate that the only time I go on there 1:39:18.400 --> 1:39:20.759 is to make sure that my name isn't trending again. Honestly, 1:39:20.800 --> 1:39:22.960 I think it's a I don't know who clicks on 1:39:22.960 --> 1:39:25.640 those trending things that I think it's sort of a 1:39:25.680 --> 1:39:30.400 bad distraction. Um. They bought Nuzzle, which was an amazing 1:39:30.439 --> 1:39:34.280 app that surfaced most shared links and could really tell 1:39:34.320 --> 1:39:37.120 you what people were saying and sort of collected conversation 1:39:37.120 --> 1:39:39.200 around different stories and then they just shut it down. 1:39:39.280 --> 1:39:41.639 And it's really too bad they didn't incorporate that into 1:39:41.640 --> 1:39:44.519 their product in my opinion, So if you could snap 1:39:44.560 --> 1:39:49.040 your fingers forgetting Elon and his personality, because this has 1:39:49.080 --> 1:39:53.920 been been a debate from long in the Jack Dorsey years, 1:39:54.000 --> 1:39:56.519 and in the investors wanted to change get rid of 1:39:56.560 --> 1:39:59.880 them long before Elon. What would you do to in 1:40:00.000 --> 1:40:04.800 improve the site? Well, Number one something I've advocated as 1:40:04.800 --> 1:40:06.360 somebody that deals with a lot of for assement and 1:40:06.439 --> 1:40:12.200 doxing is um is allowing users to define their experience 1:40:12.280 --> 1:40:15.120 better on Twitter. A lot of things that people don't 1:40:15.120 --> 1:40:17.519 like about Twitter is that it's like this open, broadcast 1:40:17.560 --> 1:40:20.280 based social platform where you're sort of trying to reach everyone, 1:40:20.360 --> 1:40:22.320 and it's hard when you're new. You have to build 1:40:22.360 --> 1:40:23.840 up a following for it, you know, otherwise you're just 1:40:23.880 --> 1:40:27.439 posting to the void. I think discovery I would improve, 1:40:27.560 --> 1:40:31.639 and I would improve UM. I hate to say user safety, 1:40:31.680 --> 1:40:34.400 but more allowing users control. Right, sometimes you want to 1:40:34.439 --> 1:40:37.160 just post to your mutuals. It's crazy that you can't 1:40:37.160 --> 1:40:39.720 do that on Twitter, right, like you have to either 1:40:39.800 --> 1:40:42.320 post to everyone or post on a private account, but 1:40:42.360 --> 1:40:45.280 then you can't post mutuals only like and now they 1:40:45.280 --> 1:40:47.600 have this close friends thing, but it's very limited to 1:40:47.600 --> 1:40:50.040 only a few people. That's just the whole thing is 1:40:50.080 --> 1:40:53.080 a mess. I think that they need ability to segment 1:40:53.120 --> 1:40:55.720 your audience. You need to be able to set expiration 1:40:55.840 --> 1:40:57.880 dates on tweets, like the fact that tweets live forever 1:40:58.040 --> 1:41:01.000 is crazy to me, especially when we're moving more and 1:41:01.040 --> 1:41:05.400 more towards cephemeral media. So um. But yeah, the two 1:41:05.400 --> 1:41:07.479 things that I would really focus on our discovery because 1:41:07.479 --> 1:41:09.519 I think that's key to growing any kind of social platform. 1:41:09.640 --> 1:41:15.760 And um and customization in terms of privacy protections. And 1:41:15.840 --> 1:41:18.040 you know he's bad at about you know, the name 1:41:18.120 --> 1:41:22.000 Twitter blue and your verification charging for verification? Do you 1:41:22.080 --> 1:41:25.200 mean that actual thing right? And you believe it's dumb? 1:41:25.240 --> 1:41:28.599 Why I wrote a lot. I wrote a long piece 1:41:28.600 --> 1:41:30.920 for The Atlantic years ago about the problems with Twitter's 1:41:30.960 --> 1:41:34.400 verification system. So I'm not defending the current system, but 1:41:34.760 --> 1:41:39.240 his allowing anybody taking this thing that has become the 1:41:39.920 --> 1:41:45.320 Twitter check mark has authority and value because it was 1:41:46.640 --> 1:41:48.920 limited to a few amount of people. If you just 1:41:49.080 --> 1:41:52.720 go and then allow anybody to buy it. It immediately 1:41:52.760 --> 1:41:56.040 devalues your work, right, I think of it kind of 1:41:56.080 --> 1:41:58.640 like look at what like Huffington posted right with their 1:41:58.680 --> 1:42:02.280 contributor network or four. You're taking this valuable media brand 1:42:02.320 --> 1:42:04.880 and suddenly you're letting anybody post on it, and that 1:42:05.040 --> 1:42:08.400 ultimately devalues the brand. What he's doing is it sort 1:42:08.400 --> 1:42:09.760 of doing that to the check mark. So it's like 1:42:09.840 --> 1:42:13.639 it's it's also dangerous, as we saw, because people don't 1:42:13.680 --> 1:42:17.519 know who they can trust anymore. Like the average people 1:42:17.560 --> 1:42:20.280 are not super with it. So they see a blue checkmark, 1:42:20.280 --> 1:42:23.880 they still think, oh, that's trustworthy. So I think his 1:42:23.960 --> 1:42:26.080 whole stupid color code of verification thing is dumb. I 1:42:26.080 --> 1:42:28.120 think he just has an ax to grind with journalists. 1:42:28.160 --> 1:42:30.719 That's seriously what his skill is and what he doesn't 1:42:30.760 --> 1:42:34.559 realize because he's so inept at understanding these things. But 1:42:34.640 --> 1:42:39.240 it's like, you verifying a journalist is a service to 1:42:39.320 --> 1:42:43.120 the user. It's not some crown that you're bestowing on 1:42:43.160 --> 1:42:47.240 a journalist. You're letting average users know, wow, this is 1:42:47.280 --> 1:42:50.240 who I who I think it is, and I can 1:42:50.280 --> 1:42:54.320 trust this person that is. That is a valuable service. 1:42:55.200 --> 1:42:59.160 And so to take that away is ultimately degrading. These 1:42:59.200 --> 1:43:03.639 are experience. So pulling back the lens a little bit, 1:43:03.880 --> 1:43:09.000 let's talk about TikTok in China. Okay, most most people 1:43:09.080 --> 1:43:12.880 going on about this or not on TikTok a. To 1:43:13.000 --> 1:43:15.160 what degree do you believe it's a problem and be 1:43:15.640 --> 1:43:18.080 do you think we'll just continue to have a talk 1:43:18.200 --> 1:43:20.960 or there will be a change here? Well, I mean, 1:43:21.080 --> 1:43:23.799 I'll say that it's in Facebook's interest to just focus 1:43:23.800 --> 1:43:27.000 on TikTok um and I think, I mean, look, China, 1:43:27.600 --> 1:43:29.680 you know there there are there are reasons to be 1:43:29.760 --> 1:43:34.799 concerned about China owning a popular social app. Right, although 1:43:34.840 --> 1:43:38.439 I will say that the data is not kept in China, etcetera, etcetera. 1:43:38.479 --> 1:43:42.000 There's no proof that they've you know, violated the stuff 1:43:42.040 --> 1:43:45.160 that they've said. Um, but I my feeling is that 1:43:45.240 --> 1:43:49.320 it's you know, making TikTok a scapegoat is really easy, 1:43:49.439 --> 1:43:51.960 and that is absolutely what Facebook and Google and these 1:43:52.000 --> 1:43:54.360 American tech companies would love. But I think we need 1:43:54.400 --> 1:43:56.599 to take a hard look at user privacy and data 1:43:56.640 --> 1:43:59.759 privacy specifically, because the truth is is that they basically 1:43:59.760 --> 1:44:02.759 have no data privacy. People can buy our information anywhere 1:44:02.960 --> 1:44:04.479 we have no control of our data. We don't have 1:44:04.520 --> 1:44:08.160 anything like GDPR or even so I think the bigger 1:44:08.320 --> 1:44:11.040 and also, there's so much money China, you know, money 1:44:11.080 --> 1:44:13.600 from from China in Silicon Valley. I mean, look at 1:44:13.640 --> 1:44:19.320 the gaming industry. It's just like it's so it's so um, 1:44:19.320 --> 1:44:21.800 it's it's such bs to hear these people like crow 1:44:21.840 --> 1:44:25.400 about China with TikTok and then turn around and you know, 1:44:26.000 --> 1:44:28.600 not have anything to say about the fact that, you know, 1:44:28.680 --> 1:44:31.439 there's tons of Chinese money in Silicon Valley and gaming 1:44:31.479 --> 1:44:34.080 companies and all that. So I think, um, I think 1:44:34.120 --> 1:44:36.080 that we need to kind of look at all of 1:44:36.080 --> 1:44:41.000 those economic relationships and in general just allow for more 1:44:41.720 --> 1:44:45.160 better data privacy protections that people can't just buy our 1:44:45.240 --> 1:44:48.360 data and and you know, do whatever they want. We 1:44:48.400 --> 1:44:51.080 have like no protections in this country. So hopefully we 1:44:51.120 --> 1:44:54.680 have comprehensive reform. Realistically we are ever going to have 1:44:54.760 --> 1:44:58.519 any reasonable privacy protection. I don't know, because you know, 1:44:58.520 --> 1:45:00.720 the lawmakers in this country don't know how to use 1:45:00.760 --> 1:45:06.160 the internet. They don't even understand stuff. Yeah, this is 1:45:06.240 --> 1:45:09.320 why amazing. It just blows my mind. They don't understand 1:45:09.360 --> 1:45:13.720 the business. They have hearings too late. They're you know, mesmerize, 1:45:13.720 --> 1:45:16.599 don't understand it. It's just just a waste of time. 1:45:16.640 --> 1:45:21.759 But staying with a similar concept that um oldsters believe 1:45:21.880 --> 1:45:26.080 something is forever. If we talk about social media, we 1:45:26.120 --> 1:45:31.760 saw friends, or we saw my Space, we saw Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. 1:45:32.960 --> 1:45:36.040 In reality, the users have no loyalty to the platform. 1:45:36.120 --> 1:45:38.519 They have a loyalty to their friends and what's new 1:45:38.520 --> 1:45:45.960 and exciting. So what's next? Good question. Um yeah, I 1:45:46.000 --> 1:45:48.240 do think that Facebook and Instagram are in trouble. I 1:45:48.240 --> 1:45:51.280 think TikTok is clearly ascendant. I think also platforms to 1:45:51.600 --> 1:45:54.320 watch or use live streaming platforms like Twitch, which is 1:45:54.360 --> 1:45:59.200 I think under under respected for the role that it 1:45:59.240 --> 1:46:02.000 plays in culture and not just gaming, but the rise 1:46:02.000 --> 1:46:05.280 of just chatting streamers, the way that it's upending media. 1:46:06.040 --> 1:46:11.120 Um I yeah, I just I basically I think Facebook 1:46:11.160 --> 1:46:13.240 is in trouble. That's like the main one that if 1:46:13.280 --> 1:46:16.040 you were to like look around and see like who's 1:46:16.120 --> 1:46:18.719 first to struggle, it's them. Because as you mentioned, Bob, 1:46:18.800 --> 1:46:22.000 like you know, these companies, especially tech companies, they really 1:46:22.080 --> 1:46:24.840 they have somewhat of a shelf shelf life. It's hard 1:46:25.479 --> 1:46:27.880 for a software company like a social platform to stay 1:46:27.920 --> 1:46:30.519 relevant for that long because of the network effects and 1:46:30.560 --> 1:46:33.880 all the other stuff. And I think Facebook is in trouble, 1:46:33.960 --> 1:46:36.880 and TikTok and all of those types of apps are 1:46:36.920 --> 1:46:39.160 more on the come up. Well, I'm more interested in 1:46:39.200 --> 1:46:42.559 the bleeding edge, pushing the envelope in the rear. Look 1:46:42.600 --> 1:46:46.559 at if we look at music okay, and we look 1:46:46.600 --> 1:46:49.960 at Spotify, So what's that next after Spotify? Well, that's 1:46:50.040 --> 1:46:52.680 hard for me to conceive because Spotify is an on 1:46:52.920 --> 1:46:55.880 demand platform, so it's all in the history of music. 1:46:55.920 --> 1:46:58.599 You get it what you want. The interface can look different, 1:46:59.080 --> 1:47:03.639 but that since we've hit the wall, which is different 1:47:03.720 --> 1:47:08.120 because essentially it's a marketplace and statistically for all the 1:47:08.160 --> 1:47:12.120 pipe Bold playlists, they are not what dominates listening. So 1:47:13.120 --> 1:47:19.160 when we look at the landscape, what comes after TikTok? Well? Yeah, 1:47:19.320 --> 1:47:22.519 So one one big conversation that's been happening in the 1:47:22.520 --> 1:47:24.880 creator world especially that just becomes more and more and 1:47:24.920 --> 1:47:27.040 more of a discussion point is this idea of ownership. 1:47:27.080 --> 1:47:28.719 And this goes back to what I was talking about, 1:47:28.720 --> 1:47:31.840 is why I left The New York Times. Um, if 1:47:31.960 --> 1:47:34.960 you are creating content on the Internet and you have 1:47:35.240 --> 1:47:42.080 developed a audience on the Internet. You, Um, it's a 1:47:42.120 --> 1:47:44.960 big point of tension like that that you don't have 1:47:45.080 --> 1:47:47.439 direct access to them or you don't own that audience, right, 1:47:47.479 --> 1:47:50.920 That audience is still mediated through these platforms, and that's 1:47:51.000 --> 1:47:53.960 something that creators are less and less comfortable with and 1:47:54.040 --> 1:47:57.519 okay with, especially as these platforms proved really volatile, right 1:47:57.560 --> 1:48:00.160 their algorithms change, or they launched a new fee sure, 1:48:00.160 --> 1:48:03.840 and suddenly their prioritizing that. So the big thing now, 1:48:04.080 --> 1:48:07.160 I think is direct connection with an audience and ownership. 1:48:07.240 --> 1:48:10.400 So you see people moving towards things like subscription based 1:48:10.439 --> 1:48:14.519 revenue UM and stuff like sub stack, even not to 1:48:14.520 --> 1:48:16.200 say that sub stack is gonna be around forever, but 1:48:16.320 --> 1:48:19.360 something where you actually have a you have the contact 1:48:19.400 --> 1:48:23.160 information for your fans and followers UM, and you can 1:48:23.160 --> 1:48:27.360 reach them directly without an algorithm. That is very appealing 1:48:27.400 --> 1:48:29.519 for creators. And if you look at a lot of 1:48:30.040 --> 1:48:32.280 creators that are successful these days that are coming up, 1:48:32.320 --> 1:48:34.479 there are people that have built that direct relationship with 1:48:34.479 --> 1:48:36.439 their audience and then own a lot of their content 1:48:37.120 --> 1:48:39.120 UM and so I think that's just going to be 1:48:39.160 --> 1:48:41.760 a bigger I think whatever platforms comes next, ownership is 1:48:41.800 --> 1:48:44.080 going to be a big part of that, allowing people 1:48:44.120 --> 1:48:48.280 to own that relationship with their audience control you know, 1:48:48.320 --> 1:48:50.240 who sees their stuff and how they reach people. I 1:48:50.280 --> 1:48:54.360 just think whatever comes next will be more about that. Okay. 1:48:54.360 --> 1:48:56.960 I don't wanna have a discussion about substecs business model. 1:48:57.040 --> 1:49:01.720 That's going in the wrong. But on better it now 1:49:01.800 --> 1:49:06.000 says on your handles, subscribe to my sub stack. Oh 1:49:06.120 --> 1:49:08.840 I can't change. I can't change that because I changed it. 1:49:08.920 --> 1:49:11.280 I made it that for one day and then Ellen 1:49:11.400 --> 1:49:14.000 made that change where you can't change if you're verified, 1:49:14.040 --> 1:49:18.160 you can't change your name anymore. Okay. I was wondering 1:49:18.200 --> 1:49:20.559 because you don't post that off and on something. But 1:49:20.600 --> 1:49:24.880 I'm trying to get everyone's emails. So subscribe to myself 1:49:24.920 --> 1:49:27.200 stack and give me your email address. I do send 1:49:27.240 --> 1:49:30.559 it sometimes I send it to promote articles usually, Okay, 1:49:30.560 --> 1:49:34.320 Just so I understand In terms of substack, do you 1:49:34.360 --> 1:49:36.720 own your data a hundred percent or do they have 1:49:36.760 --> 1:49:40.160 any access to your the emails, you collect, etcetera. You 1:49:40.200 --> 1:49:41.760 own your you own your email list, and you can 1:49:41.760 --> 1:49:43.760 take it wherever you want. You could leave stuff back 1:49:43.760 --> 1:49:49.320 to but they don't get it. Hm. Okay, Okay, So 1:49:50.080 --> 1:49:55.559 just for the naysayers, and this tends to be the 1:49:55.600 --> 1:49:59.840 older audience, people over the age of thirty five, who 1:50:00.000 --> 1:50:06.720 poo poo TikTok, etcetera. Explain, tell them what is good 1:50:06.760 --> 1:50:10.400 about TikTok, why they should be on the platform, and 1:50:10.560 --> 1:50:16.800 how to use the platform to their advantage. And definitely, uh, well, 1:50:16.800 --> 1:50:18.920 I'll never say someone has to be on social media. 1:50:18.920 --> 1:50:21.080 I'm very jealous of people that can live their life 1:50:21.200 --> 1:50:24.200 and never set foot on on these apps. So you know, 1:50:24.280 --> 1:50:26.040 it's if you don't want to do it, you don't 1:50:26.040 --> 1:50:27.880 have to. But I will say that if you want 1:50:27.880 --> 1:50:31.040 to reach people at scales, TikTok is the place to go. Um. 1:50:31.080 --> 1:50:33.559 It can seem a little bit overwhelming because it's a 1:50:33.760 --> 1:50:36.320 it's a creative tool. You know, they have a lot 1:50:36.320 --> 1:50:39.320 of creative tools. I should say, uh, but it's pretty 1:50:39.360 --> 1:50:41.600 simple to post. I mean it's you hold down the 1:50:41.600 --> 1:50:45.160 middle button and record a video, just the way that 1:50:45.200 --> 1:50:48.879 you went on Instagram stories. Um. I think it's valuable 1:50:48.920 --> 1:50:51.040 because that's just where a lot of the cultural conversation 1:50:51.080 --> 1:50:53.200 is happening. As you mentioned earlier, that's where people are 1:50:53.200 --> 1:50:56.120 going to search for content and to shop. So if 1:50:56.200 --> 1:50:58.880 you are promoting anything, or you want to be in 1:50:58.920 --> 1:51:03.240 the cultural discussion, and that is where people are going. Okay, wait, 1:51:03.320 --> 1:51:06.439 let's start one on one because most people, especially as 1:51:06.439 --> 1:51:11.839 you get older, lurkers, So forget about creating content. Start 1:51:11.920 --> 1:51:16.599 from downloading the app. Well, if you download the app, 1:51:16.960 --> 1:51:19.040 I mean, the good thing about TikTok, I'll say, is 1:51:19.080 --> 1:51:21.720 that you don't have to follow anyone. You can just 1:51:21.800 --> 1:51:24.000 download the app and watch a bunch of videos and 1:51:24.240 --> 1:51:27.920 the algorithm will learn what you like and it will 1:51:27.960 --> 1:51:30.479 start to deliver you a very engaging feed. I mean, 1:51:30.479 --> 1:51:33.000 one of my friends, she was extremely into cooking and 1:51:33.600 --> 1:51:35.160 she just downloaded too. She still I don't think she 1:51:35.240 --> 1:51:37.840 still has an account even but she you know, she'll 1:51:37.880 --> 1:51:40.240 just you can just swipe through and watch a lot 1:51:40.240 --> 1:51:43.040 of engage videos. It's like going on YouTube, right, I mean, 1:51:43.040 --> 1:51:45.559 we all go on YouTube to watch and cooking videos. 1:51:45.600 --> 1:51:48.120 I would say TikTok is great for learning, you know, 1:51:48.479 --> 1:51:50.879 for skills. I tried to pay a little bit slower 1:51:50.920 --> 1:51:53.360 because a little bit slower because for most people, the 1:51:53.439 --> 1:51:59.800 initial hurdle is difficult. Download the app and then you say, oh, 1:52:00.080 --> 1:52:03.160 just watch videos. You download the app and tell them 1:52:03.320 --> 1:52:08.800 what happens to get them through their anxiety. Okay, oh god, 1:52:08.880 --> 1:52:11.479 I have to. It's been a while. I don't know 1:52:11.560 --> 1:52:15.280 the exact user flow in terms of UM, in terms 1:52:15.360 --> 1:52:18.400 of what like what that pathway is when you download, 1:52:18.479 --> 1:52:21.960 I don't know the screens UM. Basically, you download the app. 1:52:22.000 --> 1:52:24.240 I will say, you download the app, and you are 1:52:24.840 --> 1:52:27.880 very quickly funneled into the fore you page. That is 1:52:28.000 --> 1:52:29.800 what they want you too. So you might have to 1:52:29.800 --> 1:52:32.639 set up an account. You might not UM. I think 1:52:32.640 --> 1:52:34.280 you might. You know, you might have to register for 1:52:34.320 --> 1:52:36.679 some that will give you an automatic user name or whatever. 1:52:37.479 --> 1:52:40.040 But then it will just feed you. It will see 1:52:40.080 --> 1:52:44.560 you will be on a full screen video and it 1:52:44.600 --> 1:52:46.280 will be up to you to watch that video or 1:52:46.360 --> 1:52:48.880 swipe up and see the next video. And with every 1:52:48.920 --> 1:52:53.960 swipe and every like, the algorithm will learn more about 1:52:53.960 --> 1:52:56.120 you and it will deliver you, you know, the content 1:52:56.160 --> 1:52:58.960 that you want to see. So it's it's really not 1:52:59.160 --> 1:53:01.920 hard to download TikTok like it's it's a that's the 1:53:01.960 --> 1:53:05.160 reason that they've scaled so much, right Like parents, I 1:53:05.200 --> 1:53:07.559 mean there's so many there's more parents on TikTok and Facebook. 1:53:07.600 --> 1:53:09.600 Sometimes I feel like I know that's not true, but 1:53:09.640 --> 1:53:14.800 it feels like that sometimes, Okay, and pulling back the 1:53:14.920 --> 1:53:19.520 lens all the way we're social media in the landscape, 1:53:19.680 --> 1:53:23.479 as you say, the government, certainly in America you use 1:53:23.560 --> 1:53:25.800 a little bit better or at least is bringing up 1:53:25.840 --> 1:53:31.320 the issues in terms of what is the effect of 1:53:31.439 --> 1:53:36.440 social media on the world at large, terms of everything 1:53:36.560 --> 1:53:42.200 from consumerisism, politics to uh, how it affects buying influences. 1:53:42.240 --> 1:53:45.160 Because many people have social media in a bubble as 1:53:45.280 --> 1:53:48.320 large as it is, they see, well, it doesn't impact 1:53:48.400 --> 1:53:51.439 the rest of the world. To what degree does it? 1:53:51.560 --> 1:53:54.720 And to what degree is it shaping our culture? I 1:53:54.720 --> 1:53:57.599 mean it's completely shaping our culture. I think our pop 1:53:57.640 --> 1:54:01.320 culture is Internet culture at this point. There is no distinction. 1:54:01.920 --> 1:54:05.280 If you think about like the music, the entertainment we consume, 1:54:05.360 --> 1:54:09.800 our political ecosystem is completely worked by the attention economy. Um. 1:54:10.439 --> 1:54:12.800 I mean I think we were seeing that even preach Trump. Um. 1:54:13.160 --> 1:54:17.800 It's affecting everything. I think connecting people at scale has 1:54:17.960 --> 1:54:22.439 massive implications, um and literally everything. That's the core of 1:54:22.520 --> 1:54:24.800 my beat. That's what I got into covering this whole 1:54:24.840 --> 1:54:27.599 world for is that it's not just a bunch of 1:54:27.600 --> 1:54:30.960 teenagers making videos on the internet. This these types of 1:54:30.960 --> 1:54:36.880 technologies and communication technology in general. UM is it can 1:54:36.920 --> 1:54:40.640 affect everything, business life, you know, literally anything you can 1:54:40.760 --> 1:54:43.240 you can think of. Um, there's a great talk from 1:54:43.320 --> 1:54:46.440 this UM. I can't remember who it was who gave it, 1:54:46.520 --> 1:54:48.440 but it was. It was at XO x O and 1:54:48.480 --> 1:54:50.640 he was talking which is a tech festival that doesn't 1:54:50.640 --> 1:54:53.200 happen anymore. But UM, this guy was talking about the 1:54:53.240 --> 1:54:55.160 Internet as a people connector and how the goal of 1:54:55.200 --> 1:54:58.240 Internet has always been to sort of connected people. And 1:54:58.280 --> 1:55:00.000 I think social media is the first time we're seeing 1:55:00.160 --> 1:55:03.200 stuff happen at scale and seeing those connections happen at scale. 1:55:03.240 --> 1:55:05.200 Obviously there's been a lot of downsize, but there's so 1:55:05.240 --> 1:55:10.360 many upsides too, and it's not going anywhere. I think 1:55:10.360 --> 1:55:12.720 things are changing in the social landscape. Not everyone wants 1:55:12.760 --> 1:55:15.600 to reach every person on earth at scale at at 1:55:15.600 --> 1:55:19.360 all times. I think we're realizing that that's generally not 1:55:19.400 --> 1:55:22.720 always a good idea. But but it's you know, the 1:55:22.760 --> 1:55:25.360 core of the Internet is still as a people connector 1:55:26.800 --> 1:55:29.880 and what's your personal dream? And I mean, you know, 1:55:30.640 --> 1:55:32.839 as you go down the pike, you're in your thirties 1:55:32.920 --> 1:55:35.240 now one can easily do the math when you graduated 1:55:35.240 --> 1:55:38.560 from college and you just want to do this to 1:55:38.600 --> 1:55:41.000 the end of time or is there some you know, 1:55:41.160 --> 1:55:44.120 something on the horizon that you right now say well 1:55:44.120 --> 1:55:47.240 I'd love to be or do that. Yeah. I mean, 1:55:47.560 --> 1:55:50.240 I my whole goal with my career, and I've had 1:55:50.280 --> 1:55:53.720 a million different jobs and stuff, is just to help 1:55:53.760 --> 1:55:58.240 people understand and the Internet and to take creative work 1:55:58.480 --> 1:56:02.280 on the Internet seriously, Like I really really really want 1:56:02.320 --> 1:56:04.680 that as somebody that does creative work on the Internet, 1:56:04.720 --> 1:56:08.200 I just want people to understand that that that online 1:56:08.240 --> 1:56:11.000 life is kind of our default reality now and people 1:56:11.000 --> 1:56:13.920 shouldn't dismiss that. So I guess my my dream is 1:56:13.960 --> 1:56:16.080 to impact the media and to build a better media 1:56:16.120 --> 1:56:19.200 ecosystem and do whatever I have to do to get there. 1:56:19.360 --> 1:56:22.600 I mean, I want in ten years there to be 1:56:22.640 --> 1:56:26.400 a mediate ecosystem where one we're not condescending, you know, 1:56:26.440 --> 1:56:28.400 to reporters, not saying that you're doing this, but it 1:56:28.440 --> 1:56:30.200 happens a lot on time, like where it's not where 1:56:30.240 --> 1:56:33.120 it's laughable to suggest that, oh, because a reporter uses 1:56:33.160 --> 1:56:36.400 Twitter a lot, that they're you know, self promotional or whatever. 1:56:36.480 --> 1:56:38.480 I think that we should just take all of that 1:56:38.520 --> 1:56:40.400 stuff as a given and think, well, what does that 1:56:40.440 --> 1:56:43.280 mean for media? I want a media landscape that's more 1:56:43.320 --> 1:56:47.280 diverse that Pete, that that journalists are more secure in 1:56:47.320 --> 1:56:50.400 their jobs, and that they have ownership over their work 1:56:50.440 --> 1:56:53.360 and can see the upsides of their success, you know, 1:56:53.400 --> 1:56:56.920 as much as these media companies have seen. So um yeah, 1:56:56.960 --> 1:56:58.360 those are all the things. And I don't know that 1:56:58.400 --> 1:57:00.440 I'll always be a writer. I've definitely not always been 1:57:00.440 --> 1:57:03.240 a writer. At My background is in strategy, um and 1:57:03.240 --> 1:57:06.120 and theis dev and audience development. So maybe I'll go 1:57:06.160 --> 1:57:10.320 back to doing that or something, but just something to 1:57:10.400 --> 1:57:14.280 make the media, you know, you know, build a version 1:57:14.280 --> 1:57:18.080 of media that that I want to see. Okay, Taylor, 1:57:18.160 --> 1:57:20.760 this has been great. You know. The problem is is 1:57:20.800 --> 1:57:23.120 there's well to your advantage. On one level, there's only 1:57:23.160 --> 1:57:25.880 one of you. I can't say, well, follow and pay 1:57:25.920 --> 1:57:28.360 attention to the articles of Taylor the Rands and then 1:57:28.400 --> 1:57:30.280 this person in that person, I don't know who those 1:57:30.320 --> 1:57:34.200 other people were were. And for those who don't realize 1:57:34.240 --> 1:57:38.480 you were history or your CV, you're really the authority. 1:57:38.880 --> 1:57:40.880 So I want to thank you so much for taking 1:57:40.920 --> 1:57:43.480 the time talk to my audience. Well, this is so 1:57:43.680 --> 1:57:46.680 fun because you're such an icon and I'm very honored 1:57:46.720 --> 1:57:49.120 to be included, and to be on this podcast is 1:57:49.120 --> 1:57:53.120 so fun to chat. Wow. And I'll leave it at 1:57:53.160 --> 1:57:56.200 that till next time. This is Bob Leftson,