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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sex Podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Washington Post technology reporter Taylor Wrens,

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Speaker 1: the social media expert. Taylor, good to have you on

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Speaker 1: the podcast. Yeah, thank you for having me. So what's

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Speaker 1: the future of Instagram? Gosh, Instagram is kind of in trouble,

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Speaker 1: to be honest. I feel like they're going through an

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Speaker 1: identity crisis right now. Um. I think that TikTok kind

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Speaker 1: of came and ate their lunch a little bit, and

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Speaker 1: now they're struggling to capture back some of that like

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Speaker 1: relevancy that they used to have. It's just become a

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Speaker 1: very saturated, bloated network. It's it's basically just like a

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Speaker 1: mobile version of the Facebook Blue app. And as many

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Speaker 1: of us know, the Facebook Blue app, the famous original

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Speaker 1: Facebook book, is really really sort of struggling these days.

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Speaker 1: So Instagram's in trouble. Okay, let's go back to Facebook

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Speaker 1: because Facebook pre dates Instagram. Tell me your thoughts on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: I think Facebook has just become one of those kind

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Speaker 1: of like zombie companies. They can't innovate. Um, they basically

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Speaker 1: only innovate their acquisitions, which they can't do anymore. Because

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Speaker 1: of all the antitrust stuff. So they've kind of backed

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Speaker 1: themselves into a corner. Um, they made this hard pivot

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Speaker 1: into VR, UM, you know, renaming the company Meta. Mark Zuckerberg,

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Speaker 1: you know, spent pretty much all last year hyping the

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Speaker 1: so called Metaverse, which is literally just VR, which he's

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Speaker 1: you know, hyped a million times before. UM. But they're

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Speaker 1: sort of Hallmark product, which is the Horizons world, which

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Speaker 1: is the social VR experience, is pretty bad. It's I mean,

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Speaker 1: they sell it as something people can use for meetings

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Speaker 1: and remote work, but it's just it looks like something

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Speaker 1: that is from like ninety ninety eight. Like the graphics

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Speaker 1: are just really bad. People don't have these headsets, People

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Speaker 1: don't really want to spend time in these headsets. I

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Speaker 1: think that we are probably at least a decade away

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Speaker 1: from VR adult like sort of even go becoming slightly mainstream.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think that Facebook Horizons is going to

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Speaker 1: be the app that that brings it there. So um.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, Facebook is not in a great place, and

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Speaker 1: they've obviously just laid off tons of people as well. UM,

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Speaker 1: and so we'll see kind of I think they're struggling

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Speaker 1: to survive, right now, I mean they're still printing money

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Speaker 1: from the ads business. But yeah, let's slip it over

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Speaker 1: to the users. Conventional wisdoms is and it's oldsters on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: What is your assessment of who's still using Facebook? That's true. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's a much older user base, especially when you compare

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Speaker 1: it to something like TikTok or Snapchat or um other

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Speaker 1: social platforms, even Instagram. I mean Facebook, the core Facebook product.

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Speaker 1: The users have been aging for a while and they're

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Speaker 1: not capturing younger users. Um. There's if you ask a

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Speaker 1: teenager if they use you know, Facebook proper, I think

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Speaker 1: they'll look at you funny. Um. Instagram, you know has

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Speaker 1: a slightly better demographic portrait. Um, It's definitely has more

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Speaker 1: pop culture relevance. And so you do have young people

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Speaker 1: using it, but they're not necessarily creating a lot of

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Speaker 1: content or engaging with it heavily. They're kind of using

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Speaker 1: it like a phone book almost. Um, kind of like

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Speaker 1: the way that we have millennials used to use Facebook

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Speaker 1: back in the day. So um, that's kind of where

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Speaker 1: things are with them. Okay, but one here's that Facebook

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Speaker 1: is still the megaphone for school cancelations, uh and other

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Speaker 1: community notices. Is that your experience? Yeah, I mean I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of public officials use Facebook and Twitter

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Speaker 1: UM for the types of alerts like that. UM or

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Speaker 1: you know, Facebook groups is still you know, going strong.

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Speaker 1: There's tons of Facebook groups for parents and things like that.

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Speaker 1: Again goes back to that older user base, UM finding

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Speaker 1: utility in those types of things. So, yeah, those are great,

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Speaker 1: but you can't sustain a multi you know, billion users

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Speaker 1: social product with school closures. You need it to be

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Speaker 1: you know growing, and you need to be attracting younger users,

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Speaker 1: and you need to be you know, increasing time on

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Speaker 1: the platform, and that's just not happening right now. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Historically oldsters are a step behind their children. Are the

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Speaker 1: oldsters going to migrate from Facebook or are they just

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Speaker 1: going to be on Facebook and then they'll end their

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Speaker 1: usage of social media? Well that's a really good question.

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Speaker 1: I mean I think I don't know if they'll adopt

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Speaker 1: something new. It's kind of notorious, really hard to get

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Speaker 1: older people to adopt new platforms because their social network

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Speaker 1: has already established. UM. They're just generally less likely to

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Speaker 1: download apps and kind of want to expand their world

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Speaker 1: in that way, unless it's maybe interest base or location

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Speaker 1: based like something like next door is a good example. Um,

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Speaker 1: But I think I don't know that, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know that they're going to necessarily adopt something new. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think that Facebook might be with them, but I

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Speaker 1: think that they might start seeing themselves use Facebook less

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Speaker 1: and less. I mean, even the boomers that we're using

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Speaker 1: Facebook so much in are not necessarily using it as

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Speaker 1: much now because it's just becomes less of a utility

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Speaker 1: and you have all of these other platforms cleaving off

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Speaker 1: parts of what people use Facebook for. Next Door is

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Speaker 1: a good example of this. Right, instead of joining a

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Speaker 1: local Facebook group for your community, you might just join

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Speaker 1: next door. Or instead of using you know, Facebook to

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Speaker 1: kind of publish updates about your life, you might just

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Speaker 1: start a newsletter or move to email, um, things like that.

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Speaker 1: So I think there's also a lot of worries around privacy. Um.

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Speaker 1: Facebook does not have a great reputation for data privacy

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Speaker 1: or just user privacy in general, and I think that's

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Speaker 1: also scared a lot of people away. I think people

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Speaker 1: that were sharing tons of kidding photos on Facebook even

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Speaker 1: a few years ago, I've been more wary lately to

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Speaker 1: do that. Okay, let's switch over to their other product, Instagram.

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Speaker 1: Then Instagram was a photo sharing site and then all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, TikTok gain traction and you have all

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Speaker 1: the people. I mean, there's a lot of issues here,

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Speaker 1: but let's start with the people who used uh Instagram

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Speaker 1: to both boost their base and monetize. Kardashians being a

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Speaker 1: good example, they're complaining about the change of Instagram to

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Speaker 1: try to compete with TikTok going to video. What's your

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Speaker 1: assessment there, Well, Instagram pivoted hard to video. You know,

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Speaker 1: back in when they launched a video product to compete

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Speaker 1: with Vine. That was their first kind of fora into video,

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Speaker 1: and that's when you saw videos performing better in the feed. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's that whole sort of pivotal video that happened in

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Speaker 1: the Mark Zuckerberg actually, as Lea said that Facebook would

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Speaker 1: become all video, I think by I think you said

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Speaker 1: that in sen and it really did end up coming true.

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Speaker 1: The same is true for Instagram. Of course, now you're

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Speaker 1: seeing their latest video product, which is Reels, which is

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Speaker 1: direct sort of rip off of TikTok, And I think

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Speaker 1: you see these old school Instagram people like the Kardashians

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Speaker 1: complaining about that because they can't compete in the new environment, right.

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Speaker 1: They don't want to have to suddenly create reels. They

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Speaker 1: just want to be able to post the picture like

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Speaker 1: it's and it's going to get tons of engagement. UM.

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Speaker 1: I would counter that with saying that those celebrities are

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Speaker 1: stagnant and um, you know, they need to adapt otherwise

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Speaker 1: they you know, users don't want that. A lot of

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Speaker 1: this stuff is delivering what users desire, and users desire

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Speaker 1: engaging video content. Um, that's just what user behavior shows.

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Speaker 1: So I think, um, you know, I think Instagram needs

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Speaker 1: to improve discovery. The problem with Instagram is that they've

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Speaker 1: built this follower base social on networks. So in order

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Speaker 1: you know, to UM, in order to see someone's content,

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Speaker 1: you follow them, right, and then you get this feed

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Speaker 1: of content that you've opted into. So when you see

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Speaker 1: content that you haven't opted into, for instance, Instagram putting

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Speaker 1: of reels into your feed, it's very jarring and frustrating

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Speaker 1: and you're like, I did knocked into this, or as

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Speaker 1: something like TikTok, you don't opt into anything necessarily, you're

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Speaker 1: getting all of your content primarily delivered through this algorithmic

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Speaker 1: feed called before you page, so you don't have to

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Speaker 1: follow a single person on TikTok. You're gonna be getting

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Speaker 1: you know, content served by the algorithm. And I think

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Speaker 1: those two, like the way that users approach those two networks,

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Speaker 1: that difference makes it very hard for Instagram to catch

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Speaker 1: up and insert new content into the feed and allow

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Speaker 1: smaller creators to grow because people are very like averse

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Speaker 1: to it, and because you have these big celebrities that

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Speaker 1: are like, oh no, don't you know, don't mess with

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Speaker 1: my position on the app. I still want to be

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Speaker 1: able to reach my fans, if that makes sense. Absolutely so.

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Speaker 1: Do we anticipate, you know, the Kardashians being the pinnacle here,

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Speaker 1: so we'll stay with them. You know, they have these

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Speaker 1: static photos that they employ stylists and all kinds of

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Speaker 1: expensive people to get a perfect, unrealistic picture then ultimately

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Speaker 1: tag advertising into it. Uh, will they pivot to video

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Speaker 1: or that is? Is that a transition that's just too

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Speaker 1: much for them? They've they've pivot, They've pivoted to video.

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Speaker 1: Oh pretty well, I mean they the Kardashians are just

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Speaker 1: very smart about marketing in general. I mean they post

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Speaker 1: on stories like I think that if they wanted to,

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Speaker 1: they could hire a videographer to make great video content.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look at someone like Jason deruloh, right, Like

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Speaker 1: I mean not that Jason Derulo was posting really posed photos,

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Speaker 1: but he kind of was like I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you remember that like iconic picture of him like getting

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Speaker 1: out of the pool. Like he was posting these like

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Speaker 1: thirst trap photos on Instagram for a while TikTok came

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Speaker 1: out and then he you know, leaned hard into TikTok

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Speaker 1: and is now a video superstar. So it can be done. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think the Kardashians are just maybe frustrated in general

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Speaker 1: that the platform isn't giving them more considering how much

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Speaker 1: they feel like they probably gave to the platform. Um,

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Speaker 1: but I do think that they can. You know, they're

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Speaker 1: still it's not like they're totally irrelevant in culture, right,

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Speaker 1: Like they're still relevant. They just need to up their

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Speaker 1: reels game a little bit. Well, if one assesses these

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Speaker 1: different networks, my viewpoint and we're all being fed different

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Speaker 1: videos on TikTok is there's a certain authenticity and credibility

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Speaker 1: and uniqueness to the individual on the street that is

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Speaker 1: a not embodied by traditional celebrities. And being not on

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Speaker 1: the other traditional social networks. What's your viewpoint there? That's

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Speaker 1: exactly right. I mean, that's exactly right. And I think,

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Speaker 1: um into I wrote this piece for The Atlantic called

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Speaker 1: the Instagram aathetic is Dead, and it was just about

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Speaker 1: the end of that hyper curated photoshop. Look how that

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Speaker 1: was not performing. Photos were not performing any kind of

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Speaker 1: hyper curated image on Instagram in nineteen, which is bombing.

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Speaker 1: And I think that was that real turning point where

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Speaker 1: we started to create more of authenticity. It's no coincidence that,

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Speaker 1: you know, TikTok also launched in and so I think

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Speaker 1: that's when we really started to see this shift towards

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Speaker 1: more raw content more Um, I don't, I don't. I

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Speaker 1: guess I shouldn't say authentic because a lot of it

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Speaker 1: is equally curated, but it's like a realness and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not so polished looking. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: people at that point in that during that shift, content

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Speaker 1: that was shot on an iPhone was outperforming stuff shot

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Speaker 1: on a DSLR, which was interesting because Instagram was always

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Speaker 1: built on this high quality photography. So yeah, I do

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Speaker 1: think that that shift has happened, and for people that

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Speaker 1: are still sort of stuck in the old mindset. It's

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Speaker 1: hard for them to keep up, especially celebrities, because they

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Speaker 1: have these images right that they need to control and

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Speaker 1: they can't just always, you know, get on and be wild,

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Speaker 1: and so I think they have to be very strategic

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Speaker 1: about their presence on and sort of how to grow.

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Speaker 1: Jason Drule is a good example of this. He's managed

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Speaker 1: to grow and be relatable and collaborate with big young

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Speaker 1: creators and but a lot of celebrities struggle in that area,

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Speaker 1: traditional celebrities. Okay, theoretically YouTube could have captured this market.

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Speaker 1: Why did TikTok blow up? And YouTube means static? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: YouTube what a miss? I mean, I think they saw

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Speaker 1: the rise of musically, they saw the TikTok gaining traction,

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Speaker 1: and they still took a really long time to launch shorts.

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Speaker 1: Um And I think it's been interesting to see. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the thing is is that YouTube was just the the

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Speaker 1: king on top of the mountain for so long. It remains,

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Speaker 1: you know, the most stable platform in terms of monetization

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Um And, I think that

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Speaker 1: they were just sitting pretty on their high horse. And um,

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Speaker 1: I don't think they did enough to prepare for something

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Speaker 1: like TikTok. I mean they should have seen that, they

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Speaker 1: should have seen this pivot towards short form video. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think they would argue, you know, that they do

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Speaker 1: have shorts, which is very similar to TikTok. The problem

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Speaker 1: again goes back to discovery. YouTube is a very saturated

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Speaker 1: platform where it's really hard to gain new subscribers. It's

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Speaker 1: notoriously like one YouTube subscriber is worth like a hundred

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Speaker 1: TikTok followers, um for fifty Instagram followers. Like, It's very

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Speaker 1: hard to get those subscribers on YouTube. So I think

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Speaker 1: that if YouTube really wants to compete with TikTok, they

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Speaker 1: need to nail discovery and they need to get better

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Speaker 1: about serving people, you know, engage in content from you

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Speaker 1: creators that they don't know, and helping those smaller creators grow. Okay,

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Speaker 1: not everybody is as up to speed as you are

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Speaker 1: on some of these issues. How did Musically, a youth

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Speaker 1: oriented app which was ultimately pooh pooed worth into TikTok. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think it was poo pooed by certain people. It

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Speaker 1: was certainly beloved and lauded, you know, by a lot

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Speaker 1: of us. UM, that covered it especially, and we're paying attention,

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Speaker 1: But I think, yeah, didn't it appeal more to a

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Speaker 1: younger demo than TikTok does? Well, yeah, definitely. I think

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Speaker 1: it appealed to a lot of teenagers. And I mean

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Speaker 1: the goal is to allow young people to make like

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Speaker 1: video selfies, and that really appealed to young people. And

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Speaker 1: I think you see, you know, at that point, um,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people in the tech world we're just

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Speaker 1: so anti content creator. I mean, if you look at

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Speaker 1: what a lot of these big bcs were saying about

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Speaker 1: influencers in the mid when when musically it was ascendant,

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Speaker 1: they just looked down on it because it was women,

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Speaker 1: it was young people, It was not people that they

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Speaker 1: considered serious people using it. Um. And that was obviously

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Speaker 1: such a huge oversight. Um. Meanwhile, you know it was

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Speaker 1: it was grow going at a crazy pace. UM. So

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Speaker 1: it was acquired by Byte Dance. Byte Dance kind of

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Speaker 1: cloned it and then acquired it by Dance of course.

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Speaker 1: Is this you know, giant Chinese tech conglomerate. Um. And

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Speaker 1: then they relaunched musically as TikTok in August, So that

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Speaker 1: musically app just flipped flipped over to the TikTok with app,

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Speaker 1: but it had the same functionality. I mean, if you

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Speaker 1: spend any time on musically, it was very similar to

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Speaker 1: what TikTok is today. It's the same app. I mean

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Speaker 1: the apps evolved a lot, but um, but yeah, So

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Speaker 1: what caused TikTok to blow up? Because certainly social media

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Speaker 1: networks are started, they don't necessarily gain traction. Well, so

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Speaker 1: a couple of things. One discovery, I mean, they just

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Speaker 1: nailed discovery. There was so much saturation in in terms

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Speaker 1: of that Instagram aesthetic, the millennial aesthetic, like it was

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Speaker 1: just it was oppressive and people wanted a space to

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Speaker 1: be fun and creative and kind of weird. Um. Short video,

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously is something that can become hugely culturally

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Speaker 1: relevant because it's culturally relevant because it's so share able. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, look at something like Vine. Vine wasn't around

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Speaker 1: that long, but if you look at the impact in

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Speaker 1: the reach that Vine had, it was really punching above

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Speaker 1: its weight. Um. So people could share the TikTok's really

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Speaker 1: easily cross platforms. So you started to see a lot

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Speaker 1: of TikTok's all over Instagram. Um, and they did a

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Speaker 1: ton of outreach towards creators, like they really instead of

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Speaker 1: shunning creators and kind of treating them like you know,

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Speaker 1: third class citizens like Facebook and Instagram was doing, they

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Speaker 1: really leaned into you know, content creator stuff. And by

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Speaker 1: the way, you know, Bob, it doesn't hurt that they're

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Speaker 1: owned by this multi billion dollar Chinese tech conglomerate that

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Speaker 1: spent a billion dollars alone marketing the app to young

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Speaker 1: people in its first year and in the States, Um,

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Speaker 1: that's a huge amount of marketing and that that even

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Speaker 1: just paying for those downloads, you that's almost impossible for

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Speaker 1: any other it up to compete with. So I think

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Speaker 1: that they, you know, they definitely got a leg up

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Speaker 1: in terms of the page. Go into a little more

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Speaker 1: detail how they spent that billion dollars and how they

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Speaker 1: reached the potential customer base. Yeah, a lot of it

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Speaker 1: was on app download ads, so again just getting those

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Speaker 1: download numbers, and they ran tons of ads on Snapchat.

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Speaker 1: They had this ambassador program for college students. Um, they

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Speaker 1: you know, they they were like paying big content creators

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Speaker 1: to post on the app. They were really just doing

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Speaker 1: so much in terms of marketing to get the word

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Speaker 1: out there. And I think it ended up being really

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Speaker 1: successful because you might get a teenager to download something

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Speaker 1: and it's like whatever, you all download this app, will

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Speaker 1: take a look. But then the content on the app

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Speaker 1: ended up being really engaging, so people stuck around, and

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Speaker 1: before you know what, you're creating content on there yourself.

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Speaker 1: So I think it just worked out super well. Now

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Speaker 1: we hear again and again about the TikTok algorithm, and

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Speaker 1: of course when Trump was president and look like he

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Speaker 1: was going to shut down TikTok, they're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: sell to Microsoft. Why can this algorithm not be cloned

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Speaker 1: or replicated? Well, because they have the best product team

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Speaker 1: in the entire world, and our American social media companies

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Speaker 1: are just wildly underprepared. I mean like they have not

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Speaker 1: spent their time focus focusing on recommendations. Like you know,

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Speaker 1: you would imagine that the explore page algorithm would be

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Speaker 1: far more sophisticated than it is right now on Instagram.

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Speaker 1: It's just not. None of these platforms have focused on

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Speaker 1: algorithmic discovery. They've been building these follow based models, um

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Speaker 1: and so I think it's something that they didn't invest

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Speaker 1: in because they also didn't think that there would be

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Speaker 1: any competition, right, the biggest you know, we reported on this,

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Speaker 1: but but so much of the TikTok backlash is it

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Speaker 1: is funded by Facebook basically, I mean, it's Facebook lobbying,

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Speaker 1: it's Facebook pr I reported UM Stories earlier story earlier

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Speaker 1: this year about how Facebook was actually hired this UM

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Speaker 1: public and operative firm to plant negative stories about fake

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Speaker 1: TikTok challenges and local media across the country plant fake

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Speaker 1: op eds. So, you know, I think that these big

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Speaker 1: tech conglomerates don't like competition, and for a really long

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Speaker 1: time they were able to squash or acquire every little

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Speaker 1: bit of you know, competing app um and and of

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Speaker 1: course this was the first time they couldn't do that.

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Speaker 1: Does anybody in the landscape have a strategy to compete

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Speaker 1: or is it like the music business twenty years ago,

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Speaker 1: We're going to either sue lobby or do use all

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Speaker 1: our efforts to hold back the future and competitors. I

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Speaker 1: think right now we're seeing these big tech companies do

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Speaker 1: exactly what you just describe to lobby and do anything

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Speaker 1: to hold back the future because they want to monopolize

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Speaker 1: the future and they realize that they don't have a

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Speaker 1: monopoly on it necessarily, right now because they have not

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Speaker 1: innovated enough. They've become too bloated, They've become stagnant. They're

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Speaker 1: not thinking um in innovative ways. And and so I

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Speaker 1: think that they've resorted to bullying kind of to maintain

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Speaker 1: their power. Um. But I think that can only hold

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Speaker 1: for so long. We'll see. Okay, let's go to Snapchat.

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Speaker 1: You know, when I think of Snapchat, I think a

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Speaker 1: second life sort of the original VR world, and it

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Speaker 1: had just a limited audience. It never grew. What's going

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Speaker 1: on with Snapchat because two quarters ago everyone was bullish

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Speaker 1: on it, said well, you know, their numbers are good,

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Speaker 1: and then this last quarter the numbers were bad. Uh,

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Speaker 1: explain your viewpoint on that. Yeah. Snapchats also in a

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Speaker 1: really hard spot. Also recently did a lot of layoffs.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think Snapchat, like you mentioned, just could

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Speaker 1: never scale. I mean, that's a famous acquisition target, right.

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Speaker 1: Facebook wanted to buy them um and Evans people was

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Speaker 1: like no, um. And I think that they've just really

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Speaker 1: struggled there in this weird space where I think it's

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Speaker 1: unclear whether they're a messaging app or a social platform.

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Speaker 1: They're not really a social platform. They have content Discovery,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's kind of it's it's different than TikTok, right,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of separated out of the app is bifurcated,

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Speaker 1: so on one half is messaging and then one half

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Speaker 1: is the discovery page where you can see stuff from

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Speaker 1: you know, the Daily Mail and other kind of news

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Speaker 1: outlets and content creators. Um. And I don't know that

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Speaker 1: that was the right decision to split those. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they had their reasons, um, But I do think that

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Speaker 1: it's been hard for that to scale. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: very hard for any company to compete with Facebook. It's

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Speaker 1: really hard. Facebook has had such a monopoly on our

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Speaker 1: social media landscape. And I think that they really did

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Speaker 1: a lot of damage to Snapchat and I don't know

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Speaker 1: the Snapchat will ever recover a little deeper. How do

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Speaker 1: they do damage to Snapchat? I mean cloning Instagrams and

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Speaker 1: the way the Instagram cloned Stories, which is their kind

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Speaker 1: of breakout feature. I think that captured a huge amount

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Speaker 1: of audience that was previously on going to Snapchat for

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Speaker 1: to produce that type of content. And just by cloning

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Speaker 1: that feature alone, they think they cleaved off a lot

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Speaker 1: of growth. Um. And then add dollars wise, I mean

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Speaker 1: stap chat just can't compete with Facebook's ad network or

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Speaker 1: Google's ad network um. And then I think just in

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Speaker 1: terms of messaging, it's you know again, it just goes

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Speaker 1: back to not it's not totally clear what snap chat

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Speaker 1: is for. It is used by a lot of younger people. Still,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to discount it like it's dead or

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Speaker 1: anything like that, but I think it's kind of in

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Speaker 1: a space like Twitter, where Twitter and Snapchat are both

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Speaker 1: like relevant, but and they have similar I think they

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Speaker 1: have similar user numbers UM for monthly actives, I can't remember,

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Speaker 1: but it's around. You know, they're both kind of like

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Speaker 1: that second tier trying to break up into the top tier.

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Speaker 1: But I haven't really been able to do it, and

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Speaker 1: they don't have a lot of money right now. Snapchats

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Speaker 1: they're shutting down a lot of stuff. So how do

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Speaker 1: you think it plays out of Snapchat? I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think that they have to worry about being caught in

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Speaker 1: a death spiral, right Like, there's this point where you're

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Speaker 1: shutting down all your innovation because you have to remain

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Speaker 1: lean to compete and to just to you know, survive

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Speaker 1: as a company. But then that's also hard because you

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Speaker 1: can't invest in building things that are going to attract

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Speaker 1: future users or you know, thinking out in a five

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Speaker 1: year ten year plan, right, because you're focused on just

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Speaker 1: getting through this year. Um so we'll see. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I really love Snapchat and I can't help but root

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Speaker 1: for them, just because they don't want to live in

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Speaker 1: this world that's dominated by Facebook and Google. Um but

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Speaker 1: I just I don't know, you know where it's going

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Speaker 1: to go. Okay, let's move on to Twitter. Twitter people

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Speaker 1: call is called the social network primarily by people who

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Speaker 1: don't use it. I think Twitter is its own thing.

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Speaker 1: You know, from the time we are speaking to the

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Speaker 1: time this airs. Who knows what Ellen Musk might be doing.

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Speaker 1: But what's your assessment as if today what's going on

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Speaker 1: at Twitter? Wait, Bob, that's interesting. Why would you just

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Speaker 1: say Twitter is not a social network? This we're splitting

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Speaker 1: years here in terms of what we call a social network.

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00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 1: I you know, I find that if we talk about sharing, Okay,

426
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: people thought of Facebook and they were sharing you know

427
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 1: what I did today? And when Twitter first game traction

428
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 1: ten eleven, twelve years ago was like that, whereas the

429
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: people were getting the most traction on Twitter at this point,

430
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: it's based on information and people are gonna go there

431
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 1: because they want information as opposed to sharing where they

432
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: were that afternoon or something. It's funny because I would

433
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: say the same is true for Instagram and TikTok. Actually, um,

434
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: I think that speaks to the broader shift in how

435
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: what users view social media what these platforms for. Um.

436
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,719
Speaker 1: A couple of years ago, I did a research study

437
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: actually on Instagram and news content, and a huge amount

438
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 1: of people actually go to Instagram for new the way

439
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: that you're thinking of sort of what people would go

440
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: to Twitter for, especially if you're younger. So I think

441
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 1: people are are so sally young people are just more

442
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: likely to get their news and information from social platforms,

443
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: and so they sort of turned to all of these

444
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: social platforms. But you're a hundred percent right that Twitter

445
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: is really unique. I mean, what makes Twitter unique is

446
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: is not just the fact that it's You're right, it's

447
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: more like news oriented for sure. It's also the only text,

448
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,719
Speaker 1: primarily text based social network, right, Like you don't have

449
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: to attach an image or video to post on their

450
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: the way that you do on Instagram and TikTok and stuff. Um.

451
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, now I've forgotten your question. Um, you brought

452
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: up you brought up another thing. Okay, one can certainly

453
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,719
Speaker 1: search on TikTok because you know, one of the latest

454
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: reports is young people uh search on Let's go back

455
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,719
Speaker 1: a step for a while. They're the big story was

456
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: people are doing their shopping searching on Amazon as opposed

457
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: to Google. Now they say young people are searching on TikTok.

458
00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: And I don't find Instagram quite works that way. But

459
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: the younger generation, when you talk about getting news from

460
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram, do you think they're just seeing it

461
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 1: in their feet? Do you think they're ultimately searching for

462
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 1: certain people, following certain people? How do What do you

463
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: think is going on there? Yeah? I think all of

464
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: that actually, Um, I mean certainly a huge amount of

465
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: it is just seeing it in their feet if it's TikTok, right,

466
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: Because TikTok, it doesn't really matter who you follow. Who

467
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 1: you follow is the sort of one signal to the algorithm. Um.

468
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: But when a big news event breaks, TikTok is where

469
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: you're gonna find out about it. TikTok is where you're

470
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: gonna see the discussion, especially pop culture news and um,

471
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: you know, these big kind of like cultural discussions, those

472
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 1: are all happening on TikTok um and then Instagram as well.

473
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: I mean, like look at in terms of the way

474
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: that people were finding out information about the Black Lives

475
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: Matter protests or a lot of the social justice issues

476
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: and and election related news, like that's a lot of that.

477
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: People are getting that from Instagram and TikTok um, and

478
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: sometimes they are seeking it out too. I mean, definitely,

479
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 1: when a big thing breaks where you see people talking

480
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: about it, people will go on TikTok and search out

481
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 1: those terms and try and understand what's going on, um,

482
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: and they'll usually find content creators. I mean, there's tons

483
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: of massive news content creators on both of these platforms. Um.

484
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: Just the way that people also go to YouTube right

485
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: to learn about things, although that's a little bit more

486
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: longer form. UM. So I think that already a lot

487
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: of what people would theoretically go to Twitter four has

488
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: already migrated off Twitter even pre elon. Okay, let's say

489
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: I'm driving on the freeway. You know, the map apps

490
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: are so good. Right now, Let's say I see something

491
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: in the ear, I see a fire. Used to be

492
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: you would go literally turn on the TV. Only alcers

493
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: do that now then you might go to the newspaper

494
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: in your local place at TV station, whereas if you

495
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: go on Twitter, No, you wouldn't go on Twitter for that,

496
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: though you would go on you would go on, well,

497
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: I'm still may be wrong. Let me finish. In the

498
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: old days, if you were looking for information that was

499
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: in your area, that something's happening, you hear a boom

500
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 1: or whatever. I found if I went to Twitter, I

501
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: could find information that I couldn't find elsewhere, and there

502
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 1: was a certain efficiency in that. Whereas, let me pull

503
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: the pull it back just a little bit, the oldsters

504
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: criticize the youngsters for being uninformed. My belief is today's

505
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: younger generations are more informed on the news than ever

506
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: in the history of humanity. However, just like we see

507
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: an argument in politics people's specific news feeds, there's an

508
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: immediacy on Twitter where you can and as they say,

509
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: if it's a big story, someone gets shot, take us

510
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: get shot. Yeah, you're gonna see it on all these platforms.

511
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: But if the story is not that big, what is

512
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: it going to take to find it on Instagram or TikTok.

513
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: That's such a good point, and you know you're right.

514
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: You're right that Twitter has that real time search that's

515
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: really hard to find on other platforms. Um. You know,

516
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: it's funny. If I saw a video of a fire,

517
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: I think most people's default place to upload that right

518
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: now would be TikTok if you wanted to sort of

519
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: alert people, right if you wanted to be like, WHOA,

520
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: this is crazy, I have this crazy thing that I've seen.

521
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: I think five years ago you would have posted on Twitter.

522
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: I think these days you post on TikTok and that.

523
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: But but in terms of searching, you're right, I mean certain.

524
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: The thing is you can search for recent stuff. I

525
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: mean you can. This TikTok search is very good. It

526
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: is very good. It's not exactly the same as Twitter, um,

527
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: because Twitter is text based. It's it's different. But I

528
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: do think that, um, you know, it allows people to

529
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: search out like major like events, surviral things. You're right though, Bob,

530
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: that local like that local thing is really hard to

531
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: find on TikTok. You know, Twitter advanced search is just

532
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: more robust, and it allows you to kind of segment

533
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: out the content based on location, based on time like,

534
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you can do time on TikTok to. But yeah,

535
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: it's there's that that has not TikTok search needs to

536
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: improve for sure. That's something that has haunted YouTube from

537
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: its inception, the tag issue. Whereas if you have a

538
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: text based thing, it's much easier to slice and dice

539
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: the information. Where if I were to even put fire

540
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: Santa Monica into TikTok, someone may even have a video

541
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: of the fire, but if the tags you're not right,

542
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: I won't be able to see it. Well, the thing

543
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: is is that TikTok is smarter than that. It doesn't

544
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: matter if you tag it. It can still search based

545
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: off a lot of information, for instance, captions in the video,

546
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: location of the video. I mean, you're I don't think

547
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: actually concerned by location, but I think I do think

548
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: that I've tried to find a lot of niche stuff

549
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: on TikTok enough and been able to find it that

550
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: it knows a lot more about the videos um in

551
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: terms of text too. I think the captioning, I do

552
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: believe that the captions are searchable, like I do think

553
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: that that's a signal to search when you search on

554
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: TikTok um like the captions on actual video, not the

555
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: like the transcript of the video, I should say, rather

556
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: than the like thing that people write out about it. Right,

557
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: But let's focus on Twitter specifically. Elon Musk now own

558
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: was being a great reduction and employment. He's spouting off

559
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: news is covering it on a micro level. What's the

560
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: future of TikTok? As I say, in between when we

561
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: talk and when this airs, all kinds of crazy things

562
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: can happen. That's a nature of Elon musk But from

563
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: where you see it today, Yeah, future of Twitter um

564
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: very hard to predict under Elon Musk. Um. I don't know.

565
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I I really wanted to give you on

566
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: the benefit of the doubt, but he doesn't. He doesn't

567
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: understand social platforms at all. Um, And in fact, he's

568
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: aims very misguided about stuff. I'm very concerned about how

569
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,239
Speaker 1: anti free expression and anti free speech he is. I mean,

570
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: Twitter has notoriously been in this platform where you can

571
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: say you know so much and you can communicate so much,

572
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: and you can talk about these really hard, real world issues.

573
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: You cannot talk about these big issues on TikTok or Instagram.

574
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: You will immediately get community guidelines violation if you try

575
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: and talk about Nazis, for instance, on either of those platforms, um,

576
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: Whereas on Twitter you can have these open, hard political

577
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,239
Speaker 1: discussions Under Ellen. I think it's worrying because he is

578
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: so anti free expression, um that you already see him,

579
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: you know, talking about things like banning quote unquote negative tweets.

580
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: What are negative tweets? Who knows? That's up to him

581
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: to decide. He's arbitrarily banned a lot of accounts that

582
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: are sort of leftist accounts or accounts focused on social

583
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: justice reporters, um, and then he's brought back um, you know,

584
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: far right extreme at us to have violated community guidelines before.

585
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: So I think that's really worrying. He really just doesn't

586
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: understand content moderation at all. Um. He has lied a lot.

587
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: I mean, he has lied so much always, but he

588
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: really has lied a lot recently. UM. For instance, he

589
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: said that he was going to have this content moderation

590
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: counsel and nothing would be done without them. That was

591
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: a complete lie. Um. You know, he's also making a

592
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: lot of moderation decisions based on Twitter polls, which, as

593
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: you'll you'all wroth, I hope and pronouncis day Right, the

594
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: former head of test and Safety of Twitter said, is

595
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: the number one most easy to manipulate feature on the platform.

596
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: I mean, making any decision based off a Twitter poll

597
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: that can be so easily manipulated by thoughts for an interest,

598
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: etcetera is so irresponsible. So um yeah, he's also fired

599
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: all the teams that have to do with any kind

600
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: of policing of child sexual abuse material for instance. You know,

601
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: so he can't even police his own platform. Um, it's

602
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: it's not looking good. Okay, let's talk about the free expression.

603
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: We have those on the right who said a that

604
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: Twitter was a left wing platform b uh elon muskeetians control.

605
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: He says it's about free speech, and you're talking about

606
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: it's the opposite of free speech. It's the absolute opposite. Also,

607
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: let's just be clear, Bob, Twitter as Twitter as a

608
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: political investigation is shown as Twitter's own data showed. Right,

609
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: They released their own data showing that over and over

610
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: agun Twitter has significantly amplified conservative voices. In fact, Twitter

611
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: is a conservative news platform because conservative voices and far

612
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: right voices received significant amplification in the feed, far more

613
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: than anybody on the left. And that's been reported so

614
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: many times over. So anybody that says otherwise at this

615
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: point is just lying. I mean they're just lying in

616
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: the face of all of this data. Listen, I agree

617
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: with you totally. But is that viewpoint being in the

618
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: news reporting world. Is this just a canard that the

619
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 1: right has come up with the wedge issue to get

620
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: results they want. Are they conscious of this? Why does

621
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: this story never die? Well, it never dies because these

622
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: people are lying. I mean, these people are lying. These

623
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: same people that are growing all day about free speech

624
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: are the ones kind of banned books from libraries that

625
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: they don't feel, you know, like it's just ridiculous. I mean,

626
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: as a journalist, someone that relies on the First Amendment

627
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 1: to do my job, so such a staunch supporter of

628
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: free speech, and you have these right wing you know,

629
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: politicians and far right reactionaries trying to silence I mean,

630
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: trying to silence people. What they want is to silence

631
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: people on the left, and they will lie and do

632
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: anything to do that. And it's it's very disappointing. It's

633
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: very disappointing. And I you know, obviously not saying that

634
00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: every conservative is doing that, but you know, most most

635
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: of the loudest ones on Twitter are extremely hypocritical. I mean,

636
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: just Elon endorsing shadow banning people that he doesn't disagree with,

637
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: That's that's bad. I mean just saying like negative downraking

638
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: quote unquote negative tweets. That's so terrifying because what is

639
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 1: considered a negative tweet, right, that is a highly subjective

640
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 1: thing to say that you are going to actually prevent

641
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: people from seeing that content in search results. I mean,

642
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: that's just if that was flipped, it would be a

643
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: endless news cycle. But I feel like it's a similar

644
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: I mean, he's doing the Trump playbook, right, which is

645
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: just kind of um, say anything and your actions can

646
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: completely refute everything that you're saying, but it doesn't matter

647
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 1: because you're just People are just gonna believe what you say,

648
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: even though behind the scenes you are literally doing absolutely

649
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: everything against what you purport to believe. Um. And I

650
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: don't know, people don't have a lot of media literacy

651
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: these days, so I think a lot of people fall

652
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: for it. Let's talk about the news business. Trump array

653
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: of elected in sixteen, really starts amplifying his campaign eighteen

654
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: months before, and it is reported at infinitum There's a

655
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: lot of criticisms, especially with TV News, that this is

656
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 1: impacting ratings, selling ads, and there was a lot of

657
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 1: criticism even at the Washington Post, the Margaret Sullivan, who's

658
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: no now no longer with the paper, saying you have

659
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: to take a side. Uh NPR did a story on

660
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 1: that that you know, you just can't report this stuff.

661
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: You're playing into the hands now this time around, it seems,

662
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: you know, even led ironically by the right, the New

663
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: York Posts, they're giving him less oxygen. Okay, but I

664
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: don't want to make this about Trump. I want to

665
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: make this about Elon Musk. The press is reporting literally

666
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: everything this guy dies. You would think literally world peace,

667
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: you know, depends on Twitter. Okay, it's because the media

668
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 1: is addicted to Twitter. And look, Elon Musk is one

669
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: of the richest men in the world. Right, the juicy

670
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: story that people want to read, um and it does

671
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: have very serious business implications, and you know, Elan is

672
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,399
Speaker 1: doing stuff that is endangering lives. Um So I think

673
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: that's why you're getting so many stories. I don't think

674
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: that the stories can continue at this pace forever. But

675
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: I think this is a really wild, you know, past

676
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. Um, And so you're not around of

677
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: bandwidth is commensurate with the reality of Ellen or people

678
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 1: are just so fascinated by Elon in the business and

679
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 1: addicted to Twitter that they're giving him all this space. Well,

680
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: I would say people are giving him space, but I

681
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: think they're rightfully debunking a lot of what he says, right,

682
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's really important to um fact

683
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: check the stuff that he's saying, because he lies with

684
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 1: such abandoned that I think it's important for the media

685
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: to definitely contextualize that stuff. Um. You know, I think

686
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: Ellen and Trump are very different. I mean, Elan is

687
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: a business leader, right, he's not running a political campaign yet,

688
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,919
Speaker 1: and I think Twitter, you know, the stuff that he's doing.

689
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: This deal even just the way that this deal happened

690
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: was notable and had you know, real money implications for people,

691
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: like market implications. So um, I think, you know, I

692
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: think it's a story worth covering. I think that just

693
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: the way that you need to cover it you need

694
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: to think about obviously, like the way that you're covering it.

695
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: Like I think that's the problem with a lot of

696
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: the Trump coverage to I mean, Cable news was so

697
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: incredibly irresponsible, right, Like the way that CNN and a

698
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: lot of outlets covered that election was completely irresponsible. I

699
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: think now a lot of lessons have been learned, and certainly,

700
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I can tell you from working in you

701
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: know where I work, that a lot of you know people,

702
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 1: people really think critically about a lot of this stuff,

703
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: and um for as many stories I mean, and I

704
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 1: think that the Elon stories get a lot of shares.

705
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 1: But it's not like everyone is only writing Elon stories

706
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: right like people are still writing all the other tech stories.

707
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: It is just that those stories, that's what a lot

708
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: of people want to talk about right now because all

709
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: the media people are addicted to Twitter. Again, it is

710
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: their primary platform. If all the media people left Twitter,

711
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: it would not be getting the amount of oxygen that

712
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: it's getting. Well, I guess this is interesting to me

713
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,399
Speaker 1: because I don't think the average person is either on

714
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: Twitter or is concerned to this degree. But before I

715
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: got down that pipeline whige, I may not I see

716
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: a similarity in Trump and in Elon, And then you

717
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: get to Kanye where they are a addicted to the

718
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: publicity and being in the public eye and be traditional

719
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 1: media doesn't understand. I mean, what you have to give

720
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: Trump credit on was A he was on social media.

721
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: B he was speaking English. I mean, this is why

722
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: I voted for Hillary on a big left winger. But

723
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: when she said her favorite book was the Bible, I said,

724
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: that's just complete horship. Okay, so she was complete, uh,

725
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: really untrustworthy. Whereas you have um Trump using the vernacular

726
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: and it appealed to people, and he gained even to

727
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: this lead date, he gained purchase on people that the

728
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: media do not. Now I feel the same thing with

729
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 1: Elon if for no other reason. Okay, there's two things. One,

730
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: he's a running Twitter, B is posting every day. CE

731
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: does have a CV superior to Trump and many of

732
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: these other people. You know, it was involved in PayPal.

733
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: We can't slice and dice that. Tesla, whether he started

734
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 1: or not, under his egis it became quite an enterprise SpaceX.

735
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: So you have the cult of Elon which he is feeding.

736
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: Now the other thing becomes a debate is this positive

737
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: or negative? Is it hurting or helping test actinly not

738
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: helping Tesla. And then you have Kanye who is addicted

739
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 1: to press in the same way. Kanye is literally mentally ill,

740
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: not that these others don't have flaws, and he seems

741
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: to be self immolating, he's going to go down with

742
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: the fire, etcetera. So on one hand, these people have

743
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 1: figured out the modern paradigm. On another level, they pushed

744
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: it so far, certainly Trump and Kanye, where there's been backlash.

745
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: So if you want to get your message out, have

746
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: these people tapped into something or is this one and

747
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: done well? I think all of them are really expert

748
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 1: at leveraging the attention economy and like you said, speaking

749
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: to people and kind of feeding into people's base conspiracies,

750
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 1: especially I mean they're telling people what they want to hear. Trump, Elon, Kanye,

751
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 1: they will tell people, especially you know Elon lately he's

752
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 1: just telling people what they want to hear, whether or

753
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: not it's true, and stuff he says it's not true, right,

754
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: He's promoting wild conspiracy theories, but he knows that those

755
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 1: will play well online and that people will believe because

756
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: he's rich and this is America and we worship money

757
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: above all else. So that is why he has the

758
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: respect that he does. Um, I don't know. In terms

759
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: of backlash, I mean, I think you're right, like Kanye,

760
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 1: it's a totally different situation. Um, And I think it's

761
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: very sad, um. You know, just the path that he's

762
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: gone down. Um. Trump, I think has alienated so many people,

763
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: so many of like political leaders in the GOP, that

764
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: it's it's gonna be hard for him. Ellen doesn't have

765
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: to work within the constraints of the political world or

766
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: the entertainment industry. He kind of can played by his

767
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: own rule book. So I think we'll see. I think, Um,

768
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned Tesla. I think that if what

769
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: he's doing at Twitter ends up impacting Tesla enough um,

770
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: or you know, impacting his other companies enough, and he

771
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: really starts to lose a significant amount of money, I

772
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: think that's the only way that he can be sort

773
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: of held accountable, I guess for his actions or that's

774
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: the only time that people will start to question him.

775
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: I think as long as you know, he kind of

776
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: has the appearance of success, people won't. I mean, he

777
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: keeps crowing about these gaining user numbers, but he stopped

778
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: policing spam. He's just allowing spam on the platform, and

779
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 1: you know, millions of accounts that were being deleted every

780
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 1: week a spam. Now former Twitter employees have said are

781
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: no longer being deleted, and then he's so it's just

782
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: a lot of smoking mirrors. Um, but that can only

783
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: last so long. I think, you know, we'll see he

784
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: can't do this for five years, right, So, UM, I

785
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: don't know if it's an effective strategy or not yet.

786
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: Let's talk about you specifically. Right in the Washington posted.

787
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: Let's just say you did not write every day in

788
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: the post one thing that would love for me to

789
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 1: write every day. Okay, well that's interesting, but leaving that aside,

790
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: the post is more far in advance at the time

791
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: where you work previously, and there are many more articles

792
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 1: that allow comments. Okay, so if you write once a week,

793
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: once every two weeks, usually it's more once once every

794
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: two weeks, you can see feedback that way. But you

795
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: are a very active poster on Twitter. What is your

796
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: motivation there? Oh? I post more on Instagram that I

797
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,760
Speaker 1: do on Twitter, I think. But what we're talking about Twitter? Yeah,

798
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: but the sooner Twitter on a media group chat. I mean,

799
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: the value of Twitter is for what one reporting? I

800
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 1: cover Internet culture, right, so I gotta be on everything. Um,

801
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, I post on everything. I kind of just

802
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: there's no platform that I don't post content on because

803
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: I'm constantly using it one to promote my stories, to

804
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 1: shape narratives. UM. You know, I talk a lot about

805
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: the media. I cover the media. I care a lot

806
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 1: about journalism and sort of under people understanding the information

807
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: ecosystem and our media environment. UM. I view Twitter mostly

808
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: as a place to talk to other journe us, but

809
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 1: I also find tons of sources there. I think there's

810
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:05,760
Speaker 1: tons of people in tech on Twitter, so it's valuable

811
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: for that point to UM. But mostly I'm like trying

812
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: to think how I use I used every platform differently, UM,

813
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: but Twitter is definitely the one where I'm just like, hello, media,

814
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: people pay attention to this. I have a new story out.

815
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: Here's why this matters, you know, let's go at. Let's

816
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: go a little bit slower word from the outside, which

817
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: may not be accurate. Traditionally, except for the opinion calumnus

818
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: in the major newspapers, most of the reporters were faceless.

819
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: Their names were on the articles, but other than a couple,

820
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 1: most people really had no idea who those people were.

821
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: Whereas you were reporting on the bleeding edge social media

822
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 1: and you know, the scuttle butt was the traditional people

823
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: at the New York Times didn't like that you were

824
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 1: getting that much attention, and we're against the modern period.

825
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 1: I'm what was going on from that? Oh that's not true,

826
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: that's not true. Look at someone like Ben Smith. No

827
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: one loves attention like Ben Smith. Ben Smith left. Yeah,

828
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: we both left the Times for I think similar Ben

829
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: Smith thought that he was going for opportunities, and I

830
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: didn't feel from the Outtimes. Once again, I say, this

831
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: is perception as opposed to reality. Perception wasn't wasn't that

832
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: there was backlash against Ben Smith? Uh, but perception was

833
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 1: there was backlash against you. I'm constantly getting backlash from

834
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: Look at Fox News every week, Tucker Carlson is ranting

835
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: against me. I mean, I think that is constant backlash.

836
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 1: But I never received backlash from anyone at the Times

837
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 1: while I worked there. I mean, I they hired me

838
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 1: because of my stories. I don't know, and I really

839
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: disagree with you about people don't know the names. Look

840
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: at Maggie Haberman, somebody ten times more famous than me, right,

841
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: that has a cable news contract. That's an audience of

842
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,760
Speaker 1: one point seven million On Twitter I mean I'm nowhere

843
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 1: near that big or you know, there's also amazing people

844
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: at the Times that I always looked up to, like

845
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: the critics. I mean, look at someone like John Kara Monica,

846
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: absolute legend in the pop you know, industry, and kind

847
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: of like coverage in New York and um, I mean,

848
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: there's just so many famous journalists at the Times. I

849
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: think the problem with The Times, or my my feelings

850
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: about The Times is that you can't you don't have

851
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: as much ownership, right, Like, it's a big place, and

852
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: I loved I mean, I loved working there, and I

853
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: I you know, I would work there still if if

854
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: I could have more of my own thing. Like, I

855
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: think it's a great place when you're learning stuff and

856
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 1: you're starting out and if you don't mind being in

857
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 1: service to the Times brand. But it's never you know,

858
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: it was never my I never aspired to work at

859
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: any of these legacy places at all. Um. And so

860
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: I think for me, I just you know, I'm not

861
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: just gonna take a paltry salary for way less money

862
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 1: than I could make and not own anything and not

863
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 1: be able to do any outside projects just to say

864
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 1: that I work at the New York Times. I don't

865
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: care about that. I don't think brands like that, um,

866
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: you know, to me matter so UM. While I love

867
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,439
Speaker 1: the Times and I'm such a fan, I will remain

868
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: a subscriber for life. I love my friends there, and

869
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: I love my old editor. I would die for her. Um.

870
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 1: But you know, for me, it's just not where I

871
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 1: you know, I want wanted to kind of spend spend

872
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: my time, like I thought. I wanted to do work

873
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: somewhere where I could do more of my own UM

874
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: projects and have things that I kind of can manage

875
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 1: and control a little bit. And again that's just not

876
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 1: a knock at the Times, because I think that The

877
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 1: Times is amazing in terms of the resources that they have. UM.

878
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 1: And I'm you know, I still work with them on

879
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: things if I need to, you know, like I would.

880
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: I'm not against them at all, but but I just

881
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: think for someone like me, it's not it's like I wanted.

882
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: I wanted more basically, Okay, but you know, I don't

883
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 1: want to h hammer at this point because once it's

884
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,720
Speaker 1: very funny because people are so obsessed with the Times.

885
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 1: It's like, why didn't they ask me why I left

886
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: The Atlantic? Like why wait wait, wait, wait, wait wait,

887
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 1: I'm not going there. I was going somewhere to get

888
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 1: people do know who Maggie Haberman is, But many many

889
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: more people know who you are than any of the

890
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 1: pop critics, any of the movie critics at the Times.

891
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: I think, I will tell you I don't want to

892
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: go if you're I'm in the music business. Pop critics

893
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: in the New York Times, other than the publicity people

894
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 1: who want to get stories placed they were, they're meaningless

895
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 1: because wait, wait, this gets into a bigger thing. I mean, uh,

896
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 1: and I don't know if it's relevant to what we're

897
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,240
Speaker 1: going on now. But as I say, looking from outside

898
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: of the bubble, this is one of the problems I

899
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: have with the News Business Center. It doesn't quite get

900
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: what's going on. I mean, it used to be a

901
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: critic could make or breakup, movie record whatever. That doesn't

902
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: even happen anymore. So they're working for the Times. Okay,

903
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 1: This guy pop critic at the Times. He wrote a

904
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: phenomenal book about Atlanta and hip Joe Cocarell, one of

905
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: the best in the business. Yea the video. The last

906
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: time I checked, his book had not had a single

907
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: review on Amazon. Over a month after it came out.

908
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: I don't know about Amazon reviews, but Joe, no, no, no, no,

909
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: this is just relative to impact, and I don't want

910
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 1: to This is not the most important story. But I

911
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: guarantee you if I went on Twitter right now and

912
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:49,240
Speaker 1: I looked at Kara Monica's Twitter count follower account compared

913
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:52,439
Speaker 1: to yours, it would be a small fraction. Well, yeah,

914
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: I've developed a huge audience on I started as an

915
00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: Internet person. Yeah, but my point was people were traditional reporters. Okay,

916
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: they're jealous of that, of course they are. Of course

917
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 1: they're jealous of me. This has been my whole career.

918
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: But I don't know what to say other than I

919
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: am an extremely inclusive person. Ask anyone that I've ever

920
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 1: worked with. I mean, people at the Times will tell

921
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: you how much I go out of my way to

922
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: help people. I don't care about credit. I will time out.

923
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: The reason I brought this up was not to criticize you,

924
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 1: was to talk about the other people. Okay, that they're

925
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: stuck in a past paradigm. They worked for the Gray Lady.

926
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: You don't want to step out where you're living in there.

927
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 1: They shouldn't buy into that. They shouldn't buy into that.

928
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 1: I I tell this to young journalists all the time.

929
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 1: Don't buy into that. Don't then you are in service

930
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 1: of some big company. And one of these big companies

931
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,879
Speaker 1: I graduated into the recession, and and the two thousand

932
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: eight recession was one of the really formative events of

933
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: my life. And the biggest thing I learned from that

934
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: it was companies will never have loyalty to you. They

935
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: will literally lay you off tomorrow if it's in their

936
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: best interests. Serving some news company for thirty years of

937
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: your life is not gonna you know, you can be

938
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: laid off. Look, this just happens literally on a weekly

939
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: basis in the media industry. And so I think when

940
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 1: I started out, and as I've built my career just

941
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 1: coming up, I never want to I don't view working

942
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: at a big place as stability, and certainly not a

943
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: big place where their brand is kind of everything is

944
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: in service of this brand and you have no control

945
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: and no ownership, and you are nothing, and you basically

946
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: are there to serve a big brand. I I just

947
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 1: that for me, I don't trust that. I don't trust that.

948
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: I think that is not going to lead to long

949
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: term stability. That's not to say that I wouldn't love

950
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 1: to work certain place, and I had a wonderful time

951
00:53:55,080 --> 00:54:00,240
Speaker 1: working there, But I just think, I I don't I

952
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: I'd never I always want to hedge. I don't trust

953
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: companies to ever have my best interest at heart, because

954
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 1: no company will have your best interests at heart. They're

955
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: there to make money at the end of the day.

956
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 1: And so I just, you know, personally, that's just I

957
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: don't know, that's just my feeling a lot of amazing,

958
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 1: you know. I think you've made that point well, but

959
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 1: I want to make a point in addition to that,

960
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:30,839
Speaker 1: if something is going on in Ukraine, okay, or there's

961
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 1: a national or international crisis, no one covers it as

962
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 1: well as the major media outlets. I'm talking about print

963
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 1: as opposed to cable news. So that's a layer of stories, okay.

964
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 1: But I I remember the New Yorker, which is revered

965
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:55,240
Speaker 1: amongst the intelligentsia, did a linked the story on ticketing,

966
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: and I talked to one of the key players in

967
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 1: the business and they say, what do you think of

968
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: the article? Is tell me something I don't know, you know,

969
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: there's nothing in there whatever, And what I find online

970
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 1: is there is an expert, an absolute expert, in every vertical.

971
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: This person is not working for traditional media, but they're findable. Now.

972
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: One of the reasons I have you on the podcast

973
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 1: is from my viewpoint, you're the number one expert that

974
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 1: I have found on social media. You happen to work

975
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: from major news outlet at this particular point in time,

976
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 1: but all these other people don't. So therefore, if you

977
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: want to get the heartbeat of not only America but

978
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: the world, it happens on line. And therefore you have

979
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 1: the older generation who pooh poos TikTok. Most people are

980
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: not on Twitter because they're narcissistic. They want to make

981
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: it about them, and unless you are a player in

982
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,319
Speaker 1: the news business or famous for some other reason, it

983
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: doesn't work and it's not as simple in their minds

984
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 1: to use. Okay, So assessing what's going on is an

985
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 1: interesting thing. But I was driving somewhere different, which is

986
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 1: you are participating online every day, okay, And the question

987
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 1: becomes and listen, I'll say the same thing about me.

988
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 1: I don't want to say you're unique. To what degree

989
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 1: do you need the attention? Do you need the hit

990
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: of interaction? And to what degree does that drive your activity?

991
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 1: Bob I have I am a user. Do you know

992
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: how irresponsible it would be to go and write authoritatively

993
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,399
Speaker 1: about these platforms when I'm not a user. I mean,

994
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,720
Speaker 1: look at the stories that I have gotten. You don't

995
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 1: get those stories. Guys sitting on the sidelines and never

996
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,240
Speaker 1: using the products that you're writing about. That's like asking

997
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 1: a you know, somebody that that does reviews of laptops

998
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 1: to never touch a computer. You have to use these

999
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: technolog jees and you have to really understand them, and

1000
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: you have to understand the dynamics of them. What is

1001
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,280
Speaker 1: it like to be docked and and you know, receive

1002
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: mass amount of rassman campaign? What does it like to

1003
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: say the wrong thing on TikTok and have a zillion

1004
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: stitches about you? These are things that I can cover

1005
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: because I understand them so innately because I used the Internet,

1006
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 1: and I understand that to a lot of people, they

1007
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 1: don't like a reporter that uses the Internet. I mean,

1008
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: this has been my entire career, and by the way,

1009
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 1: I started as an Internet personality. I didn't start as

1010
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 1: a journalist. I started as a person that got followers.

1011
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: For most of my career, I've ran social right like I.

1012
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: I have been in this since the beginning. And the

1013
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 1: reason that I'm so good at reporting on it is

1014
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 1: because I'm a user. And that is how you have

1015
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: to be, as they say, close to the machine. That

1016
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 1: is how you do good tech reporting. It's very irresponsible

1017
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: to not participate and to not you know, not use TikTok,

1018
00:57:57,520 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: to not whatever, and then report on it. I mean,

1019
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 1: And that's how to say. And I say that because

1020
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 1: I report on tech from user perspective. I was just

1021
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: a business reporter and I was just reporting on what

1022
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 1: happens in these companies. Sure, you know you don't have

1023
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 1: to use it as much, but I think if you

1024
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: are reporting on culture and Internet culture of course, also

1025
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 1: just basic source building. I mean, the way to build

1026
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 1: sources is to stay and stay in people's minds. And

1027
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 1: if you just sort of disappear into the ether, you're

1028
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 1: not going to get those stories. I mean, all of

1029
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: my best scoops I've gotten from posting on the internet

1030
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 1: and said, like I mean the TikTok one, for instance,

1031
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 1: the targeted victory one. I'll just use that as an

1032
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 1: example of one. Earlier this year, I quote tweeted when

1033
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 1: Blumenthal said something about a made up TikTok challenge, and

1034
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 1: I quote tweeted it and I was like, this is crazy,

1035
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: this TikTok. This is not a TikTok challenge, and this

1036
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 1: is made up by YouTube. Why is it that we

1037
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: see all of this stuff in local media? Suddenly guess what,

1038
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 1: my source saw that tweet and leaked me all the documents.

1039
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: I got that amazing scoop. If you don't that, that's

1040
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: just the nature of internet culture reporting. Everyone else on

1041
00:58:57,800 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 1: my beat, by the way, is hype is the same one,

1042
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 1: the exact same way. They just don't have the big following.

1043
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:04,439
Speaker 1: And I'm the oldest on the beat, and so whatever

1044
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 1: I get where, I get what I get. But um,

1045
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 1: but I mean, this is what we're covering. This is

1046
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:11,920
Speaker 1: our beat. It's like trying to cover culture and sitting

1047
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: in your house all day and never going to a

1048
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 1: concert or never watching a TV show. How are you

1049
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 1: supposed to be a cultural critic if you don't participate

1050
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:21,919
Speaker 1: or consume? Well, put, but let's go back to something

1051
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: you said a few minutes ago. You said, how you

1052
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: use these platforms, And one way you use these platforms

1053
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 1: is to amplify your story. None. You know, let's not

1054
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 1: pointing gasoline on this. Let's just look at it calmly.

1055
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 1: Does that work. I'm a writer also, I do I

1056
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: do not. I do not hype my stories. I'm a

1057
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: unique thing. It's not like I'm writing every day. But

1058
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 1: I find which is not your issue. It turns off

1059
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: people already read it. But if there's going to be

1060
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 1: a virality, that's in the hands of the people who

1061
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 1: writ no, no, no, no, no no no. I worked

1062
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: in audience development, Bob. My job was audience development. The

1063
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 1: people who say, oh, I don't promote my own work,

1064
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: they're relying on the institution to promote their work. You know,

1065
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 1: you don't just publish things and have a built in

1066
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 1: audience on the Internet. You need to reach people. And

1067
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 1: the way to reach people is to put the content

1068
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 1: in front of them in a way they can consume. Right.

1069
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,439
Speaker 1: If I do a story, I don't just tweet it out.

1070
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 1: I make a TikTok about it, I post about it

1071
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: on Instagram, I send it out, is an email alert

1072
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 1: sometimes in my newsletter. All of these things are letting

1073
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: the audience that cares about my work. No, Hey, there's

1074
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 1: this new story out just the way that the New

1075
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 1: York Times or the Washington Post would tweet a story

1076
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 1: out or whatever. I just don't rely on my employer

1077
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 1: to do any of that because I used to do

1078
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: I used to have that job, right, I used to

1079
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 1: run social media for all of these big media companies,

1080
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 1: and I know how much work goes into promoting people's stories,

1081
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: and what a difference it makes when a reporter report

1082
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 1: promotes their own story. I mean, that's the goal. I

1083
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 1: wish we could get reporters to kind of do that,

1084
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 1: but they, of course don't generally feel like that's part

1085
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 1: of their job. And that's fine for me. I think, Um,

1086
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 1: I don't just want to either, Like I also don't

1087
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 1: just want to promote my story, but I want to

1088
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 1: open a conversation about it. You mentioned comments. Comments are

1089
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 1: great for people that are subscribers or that you know,

1090
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 1: might have an account with the Washington Post, but it's

1091
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 1: not great to hear from the public. And I want

1092
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 1: to hear from the public. I want my stories to

1093
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: generate conversation. I want to say, hey, look, I found

1094
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 1: this information out. I'm putting this into the world. Let's

1095
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 1: discuss it. Do you have questions? Do you have thoughts,

1096
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 1: what you know? What what does this mean? And how

1097
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:34,959
Speaker 1: can we kind of further the conversation. Those are things

1098
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 1: that that are relevant and that inform future stories. I

1099
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 1: want that kind of feedback, and I want that relationship

1100
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 1: with my audience and the public so that I'm accountable.

1101
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 1: A lot of journalists go off into their you know,

1102
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 1: Ivory tower, and then they you know, they say, oh,

1103
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 1: and here's a story from me. I've come down and

1104
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 1: here's here's my story. No, I want to be in

1105
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 1: the mix with everyone, with the public saying, hey, look

1106
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 1: this is what I found out, here's my story. What

1107
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 1: do you guys think? What questions do you have that

1108
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 1: I can answer? What did I What could I do

1109
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 1: better for next time? Oh? That stuff is really important

1110
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 1: to me. Okay, I think that's well articulated. Let me

1111
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 1: shift the gears a little bit to clubhouse two sides.

1112
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 1: Let's say, how come the medium anybody who followed tech

1113
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 1: history and was I knew this was a non starter

1114
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 1: from day one? Okay, how come everybody missed it and

1115
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 1: also talk about it? It's not quite as an inception,

1116
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:39,920
Speaker 1: But not long thereafter when it was still private, my

1117
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:44,200
Speaker 1: ear quotes you got into a people attacked you tell

1118
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 1: us about that? Oh god, well, people attacked me all

1119
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: day on the internet. Um. Clubhouse, Yeah, I mean Clubhouse

1120
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 1: was interesting. I will give them credit, Bob, even though

1121
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 1: you're right that the platform was very doomed I think

1122
01:02:56,280 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 1: by intentional choices made by the VC firm that invested them. Um,

1123
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that. You know what what it did

1124
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 1: is something that Snapchat did too, which is pioneer a

1125
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 1: new format. And I think you have to give Clubhouse

1126
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 1: credit for that. Short form audio. Short form live audio

1127
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: was not a thing, right Twitter, Twitter Spaces would never

1128
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 1: have existed if it wasn't for Clubhouse. I know, Spotify

1129
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 1: as green Room. There's all of these new sort of

1130
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 1: short audio products and features now in other other products

1131
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 1: that we wouldn't have if there was no Clubhouse. So

1132
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 1: I think you you really do have to give Clubhouse

1133
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 1: credit for introducing that new sort of short form audio

1134
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 1: format just to stay with it. Short form. But what

1135
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 1: broke Clubhouse was long form? Yeah. Well, I think what

1136
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 1: I actually descred what what broke Clubhouse was the way

1137
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 1: that they managed the app. I mean, I think they

1138
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 1: scaled without any protections for harassment and abuse, and it

1139
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 1: became very toxic and very overrun with spam. A lot

1140
01:03:57,680 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 1: of people say, oh, we don't want you know, this

1141
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:01,560
Speaker 1: is Elon's favor thing. Oh we don't want any moderation.

1142
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 1: You know what makes people want moderation spam, And that

1143
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 1: is what happened with Clubhouse. It was overrun with these

1144
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 1: like scam rooms. And then also I think UM discovery

1145
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,000
Speaker 1: was fundamentally broken. We're talking about discovery on TikTok right,

1146
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 1: Like TikTok has this amazing ability to surface content that's

1147
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:22,680
Speaker 1: interesting to you and follow, you know, encourage you to follow,

1148
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:26,520
Speaker 1: an engage with people that are interesting. Clubhouse never nailed discovery.

1149
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: It was way too late that they rolled out that,

1150
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 1: like algorithmic feed, at that point people had lost I

1151
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 1: think they've benefited hugely from the early days of pandemic

1152
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 1: when everyone was caught in UM. But the main suggested

1153
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 1: user list on that app had a bunch of and

1154
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 1: recent Horwitz partners on it. I'll never forget this is

1155
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 1: in my book, being at this TikTok house in Atlanta

1156
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 1: with a bunch of teenage you know, TikTokers in Atlanta,

1157
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 1: and they're talking about Clubhouse and one of them is like,

1158
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I love Clubhouse. You just have to follow

1159
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 1: all these really old, weird white guy guys first to

1160
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: get onto the app. And I was like, show that

1161
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:58,360
Speaker 1: to me. What are you talking about. They're talking about

1162
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 1: being forced to follow work and recent to get onto

1163
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 1: the app. That's very bad user experience. You should. I

1164
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 1: think that in the case of Clubhouse, the investors, primary investors,

1165
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 1: use that app to boost their own influence, which they

1166
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 1: continue to try and do over and over again because

1167
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 1: they're so desperate to be influencers these days, um to

1168
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 1: the detriment of discovery, and I think that they that

1169
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 1: and then the crazy number of push alerts that they

1170
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 1: would send. I just think that they burned the user

1171
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 1: base out. Users couldn't find interesting stuff, and then kind

1172
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 1: of like what happened to Snapchat once Instagram Stories rolled out,

1173
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 1: once Twitter spaces rolled out, once we had these competing products,

1174
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,080
Speaker 1: it just wasn't you know, people didn't need to go

1175
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 1: to a specific app. Let's go back a step to

1176
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:52,640
Speaker 1: heat hate in general. You know, I get hate every day.

1177
01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 1: I remember, you know, I remember this was about eight

1178
01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:59,440
Speaker 1: years ago. Tina Fey wanted to won some award and

1179
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 1: she stood on stage and called out one of our haters.

1180
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:03,840
Speaker 1: You have someone that no one would know other than

1181
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 1: so that there's an incredible number of people were afraid

1182
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 1: to play because of the hate. How do you cope

1183
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 1: with the hate? Well, I mean I don't. What I

1184
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:19,080
Speaker 1: experience is not just hate, right, I have for three

1185
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 1: years now been the target of a very coordinated smear

1186
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 1: campaign by um, you know, far right actors that are

1187
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 1: that are politically motivated, that are very anti media. So, um,

1188
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 1: you know, it's not just hate. I don't care about hate.

1189
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 1: I cover YouTubers for a living, Bob, So if I

1190
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 1: cared about hate, I wouldn't you know, be in this

1191
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 1: in this beat different question. Lett's separate this out before you.

1192
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 1: Let's just talk about average social media hate is supposed

1193
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 1: to coordinate that you're talking about my hate? Okay, well

1194
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 1: does it? No? No? Does it literally just roll off

1195
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:56,800
Speaker 1: your back? At this point? I think in most of

1196
01:06:56,840 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 1: it does because I have the last few years have

1197
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:09,160
Speaker 1: been so crazy, so crazy, I mean, so out of

1198
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 1: control experiences that I never thought I would have crazy,

1199
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 1: um that I think at this point, I'm I'm very

1200
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:18,280
Speaker 1: desensitized to it. But I also it's it's I mean,

1201
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 1: it's completely changed how I operated on the internet because

1202
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 1: because because of the backlash that I get. So tell

1203
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:29,080
Speaker 1: tell me how you've changed. I mean, I just I'm

1204
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:33,640
Speaker 1: I'm extremely privacy oriented and like there's a reason that

1205
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 1: you never see me post anything about my life, who

1206
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 1: I'm friends with, I'm not. I'm not sharing any kind

1207
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 1: of details. People don't know anything about me because I

1208
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 1: don't want them to know anything about me, because I

1209
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:48,320
Speaker 1: am intentionally private about that. When I'm on the Internet.

1210
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 1: I'm on the Internet for fun and to connect for sure,

1211
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 1: But I'm not you know, I'm just a lot more

1212
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 1: private about you know, any kind of personal aspect of

1213
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 1: my life. Um in a that I so that works

1214
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:09,680
Speaker 1: for something, But for either the weirdos or the people

1215
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:12,480
Speaker 1: who are out to get you, we know, everybody is

1216
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 1: findable amation Oh yes, I mean I've been docs a

1217
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:20,240
Speaker 1: million times over, as have my friends and family members.

1218
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:24,200
Speaker 1: So let's segue back to the right wing campaign and

1219
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:26,439
Speaker 1: mix it all together. Tell me more about the right

1220
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:31,559
Speaker 1: wing campaign and to what degree you are fearful. Yeah, well,

1221
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:36,280
Speaker 1: I mean I've had very credible physical interactions, so I

1222
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:38,280
Speaker 1: am very fearful of these people. I mean, these people

1223
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 1: do not stay online. Unfortunately, they become radicalized and they

1224
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 1: will try and physically harm you. Um. But what they

1225
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 1: you know, what they succeed at most is reputational harm.

1226
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:52,960
Speaker 1: And I've written many, many, many stories about this to

1227
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 1: try and help people understand. Um. But you know, a

1228
01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, he Booth began to sort of

1229
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:04,439
Speaker 1: fixate on me as this figure and this avatar for

1230
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:08,120
Speaker 1: everything that they didn't like about you know, traditional media

1231
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 1: or which is very ironic because I'm the least traditional

1232
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 1: media person or the tech industry or whatever, um And

1233
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 1: and they kind of just started using me as this

1234
01:09:18,320 --> 01:09:21,760
Speaker 1: like stand in right for like the liberal media or

1235
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:24,600
Speaker 1: whatever they don't like that day. Much of it is

1236
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:26,560
Speaker 1: rooted in misogyny. I mean, if you look at the

1237
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,559
Speaker 1: attacks against me, it is the vast majority are just

1238
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 1: deeply misogynistic. And I think a lot of women tech

1239
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:35,720
Speaker 1: reporters specifically get this. A lot of my friends went

1240
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:38,720
Speaker 1: through gamer Gate. UM. I don't know how familiar audiences

1241
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:41,880
Speaker 1: with gamer Gate, but it was this hate campaign against women,

1242
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 1: um tech and gaming journalists and sort of against diversity

1243
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:48,680
Speaker 1: in games coverage in general. In the first half of

1244
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 1: the ten UM spent almost ten years actually since gamer Gate,

1245
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 1: and I think that the broader public still does not

1246
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:58,160
Speaker 1: understand how these things work, and so they see things

1247
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 1: like Tucker you know, ranting at me or Fox News

1248
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:03,120
Speaker 1: doing these daily stories about me, and they think, Wow,

1249
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:07,600
Speaker 1: she's controversial. They never actually dig into it and realize that, like,

1250
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 1: most of this is bullshit. I mean, have I like

1251
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:12,880
Speaker 1: done stupid things of the pasture. I'm trying to think

1252
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 1: of what I've done. I don't know. I think I've

1253
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:16,920
Speaker 1: said I hate America and some stuff like that, maybe

1254
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:20,240
Speaker 1: once or twice, but like, UM, you know, most of

1255
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:23,720
Speaker 1: it's just manufactured outrage and UM putting words in my

1256
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:27,320
Speaker 1: mouth or misrepresenting me. And I think, UM, that has

1257
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:28,880
Speaker 1: been really hard to deal with, and it's really hard

1258
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 1: to deal with. It's really the only people that get

1259
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:34,559
Speaker 1: it are celebrities. Like I've found that the only people

1260
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 1: that I feel like I can talk to who really

1261
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:41,679
Speaker 1: understand seeing this image of themselves projected back to them

1262
01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:44,160
Speaker 1: through the media that's just so off base with how

1263
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:46,880
Speaker 1: they really are, what really happened, or are famous people

1264
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:50,840
Speaker 1: that they deal with it every day. UM, And I

1265
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:53,120
Speaker 1: don't consider myself as celebrities. So I think it's hard,

1266
01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:54,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's hard to kind of deal with that.

1267
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 1: I'm not some a less movie star with a pr team.

1268
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 1: It's it's just me. And oh it's hard, and it's

1269
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:04,519
Speaker 1: it's really hard. This stuff with my family is really hard.

1270
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:08,600
Speaker 1: I mean, having people, um, you know, chow up to

1271
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 1: my parents house and swapped my parents and and attack

1272
01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 1: my family members and and my friends and threatened my friends.

1273
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:16,040
Speaker 1: I mean, that's been the hardest part that because I

1274
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:20,880
Speaker 1: feel like I can't protect them. So anyway, that's why

1275
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 1: I'm more careful about, you know, even saying who I'm with.

1276
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:27,719
Speaker 1: I don't want people mapping my social circle or things

1277
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 1: like that. I just would rather keep it all private.

1278
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:34,040
Speaker 1: So what do you think when Tucker started to mention you,

1279
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 1: It was really I mean when it first started to

1280
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:42,080
Speaker 1: happen a couple of years ago, it was really, Um,

1281
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:44,519
Speaker 1: I was so upset. I mean it really it really.

1282
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,560
Speaker 1: I was getting suddenly a level of hate and attacks

1283
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 1: and it's not just Tucker. I think Tucker is kind

1284
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 1: of the peak of this whole ecosystem. Um, but it

1285
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:55,759
Speaker 1: was it was hard to deal with and it was overwhelming,

1286
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 1: and suddenly I was getting you know, I changed my

1287
01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:02,760
Speaker 1: phone number, like I was getting so much hate on

1288
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:05,840
Speaker 1: every platform and having people attack my relatives, and it

1289
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:07,840
Speaker 1: was hard. Now I've been able to deal with it.

1290
01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:09,800
Speaker 1: Now I'm like, oh god, he's on another one. You know,

1291
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 1: I kind of treated like a YouTuber basically in my mind,

1292
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:14,760
Speaker 1: like you know, when a YouTuber makes a video about me,

1293
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:18,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, whatever, I'm so used to this by now. Um,

1294
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:20,479
Speaker 1: And I started to feel that way a little bit

1295
01:12:20,520 --> 01:12:22,639
Speaker 1: about the right wing media. But I spend a lot

1296
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:25,439
Speaker 1: of time trying to educate people, writing the stories that

1297
01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:29,080
Speaker 1: I do about online harassment and being a voice in

1298
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 1: the industry to try and help people understand what a

1299
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:35,920
Speaker 1: smear campaign looks like. You know, this is manipulating someone's

1300
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:39,360
Speaker 1: sco results, this is planting stories about them, this is

1301
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:42,280
Speaker 1: you know, last year, I dealt with a bot um

1302
01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 1: somebody you know how basically use bots to send hundreds

1303
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:49,439
Speaker 1: of thousands of messages to every single person that follows me,

1304
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:52,840
Speaker 1: and most people have follow Washington Post um messages about

1305
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:54,720
Speaker 1: me just sort of lying about me, saying that I'm

1306
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:57,440
Speaker 1: going to be fired, and I was, you know, controversial

1307
01:12:57,479 --> 01:13:00,840
Speaker 1: at the times. All the stuff that's completely untrue. UM.

1308
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:03,479
Speaker 1: And you know, there's just there's a lot of that

1309
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:05,880
Speaker 1: stuff that people don't understand what a smear campaign looks like.

1310
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:07,639
Speaker 1: They think, oh, it's just some mean tweets. I don't

1311
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:09,400
Speaker 1: care about me and tweets. I don't even see mean tweets.

1312
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:12,439
Speaker 1: I have like all my filters on UM. But this

1313
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:15,479
Speaker 1: other stuff is very real, I mean very real threats.

1314
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 1: I have to have security when I go to public

1315
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 1: events a lot of the times now because these people

1316
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:25,200
Speaker 1: have physically, you know, tried to show up and physically army. Okay.

1317
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:29,919
Speaker 1: One other area that you're very vocal about is COVID

1318
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:39,720
Speaker 1: nineteen vaccinations. Everybody gets vaccinated. Everybody. Also it says you

1319
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:44,360
Speaker 1: have an underlying immune condition. Is that correct? Yes, I'm

1320
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:48,639
Speaker 1: severely immuto compromised. UM. So I care a lot about UM,

1321
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 1: you know, advocating for people like myself that are you know,

1322
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 1: not able to you know that we we can't operate

1323
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:58,599
Speaker 1: in the world UM the same way that that many

1324
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 1: others feel that they can and UM. You know, I

1325
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:04,240
Speaker 1: think for disabled people throughout this pandemic, it's been really hard.

1326
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:07,440
Speaker 1: A lot of disabled people are still at home shielding

1327
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:11,120
Speaker 1: UM or they've been forced back into really unsafe work environments,

1328
01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:13,599
Speaker 1: UM having to put their health at risk. I've lost,

1329
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:16,040
Speaker 1: you know, several people that I was very close to

1330
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:19,360
Speaker 1: to COVID. UM. It's it's ongoing. I have, you know,

1331
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 1: somebody very close to me as the hospital right now,

1332
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:26,040
Speaker 1: UM sick. And so I think it's just really really

1333
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:30,360
Speaker 1: important for members of the media to understand and remember that.

1334
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 1: I think the problem with a lot of people, especially

1335
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 1: in traditional media, these really nice, cushy jobs. You know,

1336
01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:38,200
Speaker 1: they're able to go to their at Hampton's house or

1337
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:43,200
Speaker 1: Upstate New York during COVID and check out and be like, oh,

1338
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:45,559
Speaker 1: you know, everything's fine, I got the vaccine, I'm done.

1339
01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:48,800
Speaker 1: What they don't realize is there's thousands of people still

1340
01:14:48,840 --> 01:14:50,719
Speaker 1: dying a week. I mean, I think the Washington Post

1341
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:54,479
Speaker 1: has done such great health reporting. Um Dan Diamond amazing

1342
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:58,519
Speaker 1: health reporter. We have Amanda Morris who covers disability issues

1343
01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:00,840
Speaker 1: for the Post now, and both of them have just

1344
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:03,920
Speaker 1: done such great work kind of highlighting this. But I

1345
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:07,519
Speaker 1: try to always remember, always remind use my platform to

1346
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:11,479
Speaker 1: remind other people what it's like for those who don't

1347
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 1: have the same privileges and opportunities you know, someone like me,

1348
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:17,680
Speaker 1: I don't have the same protection against COVID. I mean,

1349
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:20,680
Speaker 1: I've had as many vaccines as you can possibly get,

1350
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:23,240
Speaker 1: and I God bless them, but they do not they

1351
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:26,080
Speaker 1: are not equally protective for all of us. Um of

1352
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:28,280
Speaker 1: course I got evy shells as well, but now we

1353
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:32,680
Speaker 1: know that evy shell doesn't protecting. I have a similar situation.

1354
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:34,800
Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna go here for a second. So

1355
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:40,000
Speaker 1: what exactly is the issue that you know you're not

1356
01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:42,599
Speaker 1: making antibodies because you have a treatment for b sells,

1357
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:44,920
Speaker 1: So but I can't I definitely can't get into my

1358
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:51,200
Speaker 1: personal health stuff that I take the treatment. I take

1359
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:54,960
Speaker 1: a treatment that wipes out all your B cells, and

1360
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:59,280
Speaker 1: therefore the vaccines didn't work, and I got evy shelled.

1361
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:02,000
Speaker 1: I got the one before that, which was didn't work

1362
01:16:02,040 --> 01:16:06,040
Speaker 1: for a macron, and eventually my B cells came back

1363
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:09,360
Speaker 1: and I got three more vaccines. But it was I

1364
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:11,680
Speaker 1: was living, you know, off the grid for two and

1365
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:16,200
Speaker 1: a half years. But just to segue to another topic,

1366
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:20,560
Speaker 1: and you mentioned it earlier, you came to my attention

1367
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:25,720
Speaker 1: primarily you're reporting on the influencers, which I've always found interesting.

1368
01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:29,840
Speaker 1: The first influencer that I really became interested in was

1369
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:33,240
Speaker 1: this one, Jena Marbles, and what I noticed, You know,

1370
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:37,400
Speaker 1: with all these influencers who are not expressing. Let me

1371
01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:41,800
Speaker 1: back up a little bit. The entertainment business, like the

1372
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:46,559
Speaker 1: major media business, is always one step behind, and they

1373
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:50,559
Speaker 1: think they can always come in and clean up. This

1374
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 1: is like TikTok Records are bourbon on TikTok and they

1375
01:16:54,880 --> 01:16:58,679
Speaker 1: want to manipulate the market, which at the time they can't,

1376
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:02,000
Speaker 1: and they believe they could. Anybody blows up on TikTok

1377
01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:06,519
Speaker 1: will sign with them. That's I want to go into

1378
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:11,639
Speaker 1: depth there. And switching gears. They were under the uh

1379
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:17,520
Speaker 1: they believed since these online influencers had so many followers,

1380
01:17:18,040 --> 01:17:23,960
Speaker 1: they would translate to traditional media. Okay, uh, you know

1381
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 1: there's one of them, uh, TikTok you probably remember the name,

1382
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:29,799
Speaker 1: has their own TV show just like no one is watching.

1383
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:32,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, right, I don't want to go too far,

1384
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:35,760
Speaker 1: but I want to talk about two elements. One that

1385
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:38,000
Speaker 1: since most of these people don't have it in an

1386
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:43,600
Speaker 1: eate talent, they are producing content two seven to the

1387
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:48,400
Speaker 1: point where they ultimately burn themselves out and abandoned the paradigm.

1388
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:55,599
Speaker 1: Two there is a whole house slash factory of producing content.

1389
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:57,720
Speaker 1: I know that those are not wholly related, but why

1390
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:01,599
Speaker 1: don't you start there? Yes, Um, you know, I think,

1391
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:04,440
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, Bob, it's really hard for these influencers

1392
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:09,280
Speaker 1: because they burn themselves out and these platforms reward that.

1393
01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:13,799
Speaker 1: I mean, these platforms push people into seven work schedules.

1394
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:15,680
Speaker 1: You can't take a break. If you don't post, you're

1395
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:19,200
Speaker 1: not monetizing. Um. And I think that that that stunds

1396
01:18:19,240 --> 01:18:21,640
Speaker 1: a lot of creativity, and I think it leads to

1397
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 1: burn out. Um. And I think that the traditional entertainment

1398
01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:28,920
Speaker 1: industry is still learning how to leverage these people. Um.

1399
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 1: I think it did not work necessarily to put them

1400
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:33,559
Speaker 1: in traditional movies. As you said, a lot of these

1401
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:37,320
Speaker 1: people are not the most talented actors necessarily. I would

1402
01:18:37,360 --> 01:18:41,720
Speaker 1: say music as an area that you know has worked out.

1403
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 1: I mean somebody like Olivia Rodrigo or Shawn Mendez. There's

1404
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:46,920
Speaker 1: a lot of like I mean Justin Bieber, I guess

1405
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:50,360
Speaker 1: came off YouTube, Like there are there are success stories there. Um,

1406
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:53,759
Speaker 1: But I think it's just it's a lot of traditional

1407
01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:55,559
Speaker 1: entertainment is still kind of like what do we do

1408
01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:57,519
Speaker 1: with these people? And then these people are trying to

1409
01:18:57,600 --> 01:19:01,280
Speaker 1: kind of like build their own media companies and figure

1410
01:19:01,280 --> 01:19:03,800
Speaker 1: out their own strategy and do they even want to

1411
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:06,479
Speaker 1: be in traditional Hollywood? Does that even make sense? Right?

1412
01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:08,479
Speaker 1: So I think it's kind of I don't know, it's

1413
01:19:08,479 --> 01:19:12,880
Speaker 1: all evolving. Okay, So what about the creator houses and

1414
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:18,000
Speaker 1: the situation of groups of influencers at this point in time? Yes, um,

1415
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 1: so creator houses have been a thing since two thousand nine.

1416
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:25,439
Speaker 1: Um we had the first content creator house called The Station,

1417
01:19:25,479 --> 01:19:28,519
Speaker 1: which ended up becoming Maker Studios UM. And pretty much

1418
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:32,000
Speaker 1: ever since then, we've we've had you know, creative content

1419
01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:34,840
Speaker 1: houses UM all over l A, also Atlanta at other

1420
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:38,479
Speaker 1: places to Houston. UM. And people live together because it

1421
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:41,720
Speaker 1: makes sense, right you're young. I think young creative people

1422
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:44,000
Speaker 1: always want to live together. But in this case it

1423
01:19:44,479 --> 01:19:47,479
Speaker 1: sort of has a direct financial incentive because you can

1424
01:19:47,520 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 1: collaborate and kind of grow as a group and brand

1425
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:53,640
Speaker 1: yourself that way. It really I think it really that

1426
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:56,559
Speaker 1: whole like culture really exploded into the mainstream with the

1427
01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:59,760
Speaker 1: Hype House and TikTok and I think in one you

1428
01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:01,680
Speaker 1: saw so many of these houses, and you had all

1429
01:20:01,720 --> 01:20:04,760
Speaker 1: these management companies starting these houses and then now, I

1430
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 1: think lately is cooled off because people realized a lot

1431
01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:11,200
Speaker 1: of these management companies realize that these houses are actually

1432
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:14,479
Speaker 1: just like huge liabilities. Um. Anytime you have a house

1433
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:18,120
Speaker 1: full of young people, it's not the easiest thing to manage.

1434
01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:20,160
Speaker 1: So um. You know. So you're seeing a lot of

1435
01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:23,280
Speaker 1: management companies pulled back. But young people will always live

1436
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:27,679
Speaker 1: together in Hollywood. Okay, you yourself moved from the East

1437
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 1: Coast to the West coast to be closer to this. Yes,

1438
01:20:30,439 --> 01:20:33,000
Speaker 1: I'm a New Yorker for life, But I have to

1439
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:36,559
Speaker 1: say I love l A. And then and why do you?

1440
01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:38,759
Speaker 1: Why do you? Why do you love l A? Well,

1441
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:41,639
Speaker 1: I have a lot of family in California. Um, and

1442
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:43,920
Speaker 1: I had spent a bunch of time in California. I

1443
01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:45,479
Speaker 1: mean I was always here. I was here for like

1444
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:49,280
Speaker 1: several months in twenty nineteen and months like I've always

1445
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:52,439
Speaker 1: I was out here for like nine months at one point, uh,

1446
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:55,040
Speaker 1: probably seven years ago. I've I've almost moved here, and

1447
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:57,200
Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time here, But it wasn't

1448
01:20:57,240 --> 01:20:59,639
Speaker 1: until I lived in l A full time. I feel

1449
01:20:59,640 --> 01:21:02,640
Speaker 1: like that I really appreciated the city and got to

1450
01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:05,160
Speaker 1: see so many more sides of it, like when you

1451
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:08,800
Speaker 1: come in and you're staying downtown or you're just staying

1452
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:10,599
Speaker 1: in West Hollywood and you're just going to a bunch

1453
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:13,360
Speaker 1: of influencer events, Like, that's not the way to like

1454
01:21:13,439 --> 01:21:17,719
Speaker 1: experience l A. So now that I live here, I'm like, oh,

1455
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:20,800
Speaker 1: this is actually great, and there's a lot of cool

1456
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:24,479
Speaker 1: people here and the weather I mean well, I mean,

1457
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:26,599
Speaker 1: you know, l A is a shitty tourist town, which

1458
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:29,040
Speaker 1: is what you're referencing there. If you come, let me

1459
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:31,680
Speaker 1: hit the highlights. And you know, New Yorker comes to

1460
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:35,080
Speaker 1: l A and says, you know, hey, you know, I

1461
01:21:35,120 --> 01:21:37,920
Speaker 1: don't get it. There's not the cultural stuff, there's not

1462
01:21:38,040 --> 01:21:41,759
Speaker 1: the street life. I'd rather live in New York. And

1463
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:44,880
Speaker 1: Angelino goes to New York, this greatest city in the world,

1464
01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:49,800
Speaker 1: but I'd rather live in l A. I aspire to

1465
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:53,320
Speaker 1: be bi coastal. That would be really nice. Uh not

1466
01:21:53,720 --> 01:21:56,040
Speaker 1: you know there yet, but I don't know. I mean,

1467
01:21:56,040 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 1: it's it's great out here. In my California relatives are

1468
01:21:59,840 --> 01:22:03,000
Speaker 1: all feeling very smug. I think about the fact that

1469
01:22:03,040 --> 01:22:08,720
Speaker 1: I have become I've become such a l A booster. Okay, Now,

1470
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:11,479
Speaker 1: in hip hop there was a New York scene, l

1471
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:15,439
Speaker 1: A scene, Atlanta scene and talking to Joe Coscarelli, you

1472
01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:20,479
Speaker 1: know he's talking about scenes in Sacramento, when in Idaho. Um,

1473
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:25,480
Speaker 1: when it comes to the creator economy, obviously people are everywhere,

1474
01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:28,880
Speaker 1: But are Los Angeles and you said to a degree Atlanta,

1475
01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 1: are those still very much the hot beds in the

1476
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:35,120
Speaker 1: major places? Yeah? I think Um, I mean I think

1477
01:22:35,479 --> 01:22:38,840
Speaker 1: l A, New York, Atlanta to a lesser extent, maybe

1478
01:22:38,840 --> 01:22:42,520
Speaker 1: like Houston and Orlando, like some cities in Florida, Miami.

1479
01:22:43,760 --> 01:22:46,960
Speaker 1: I mean, anywhere you have like creative people, it's it's

1480
01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:49,920
Speaker 1: going to be that. That's that's where the content creator

1481
01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:52,400
Speaker 1: industry is definitely like this this where the hubs are

1482
01:22:52,840 --> 01:22:54,960
Speaker 1: really New York and l A for the brands, for

1483
01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:57,879
Speaker 1: the managers, for the agents, but then you have lifestyle

1484
01:22:57,920 --> 01:23:00,559
Speaker 1: influencers all over. I mean, this shift in media towards

1485
01:23:01,160 --> 01:23:04,880
Speaker 1: personality driven media is not something that's just happening with Tiktoker's.

1486
01:23:05,040 --> 01:23:07,719
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of parents, for instance, might follow

1487
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:11,160
Speaker 1: like a recipe in you know, influencers somewhere on TikTok

1488
01:23:11,240 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 1: or Instagram. That person might live in Charlotte, North Carolina,

1489
01:23:14,120 --> 01:23:17,080
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of people kind of all

1490
01:23:17,080 --> 01:23:20,240
Speaker 1: over moving into this line of work. But I do

1491
01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:21,960
Speaker 1: think that New York and l A or where it's

1492
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:26,559
Speaker 1: concentrated in Atlanta, because those are the entertainment hubs, since

1493
01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:29,400
Speaker 1: you're so close to it. You know, people say that

1494
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:31,840
Speaker 1: they want to be in the music business. The first

1495
01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:34,320
Speaker 1: thing is I tell them is no, you don't want

1496
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:38,160
Speaker 1: to be in the med You know, it's incredibly hard

1497
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:42,040
Speaker 1: work to get in and it's almost impossible to stay in. So,

1498
01:23:42,200 --> 01:23:46,599
Speaker 1: having observed all these influencers, what would you tell to someone, Oh,

1499
01:23:46,720 --> 01:23:48,080
Speaker 1: you know, because I'm sure you get the same thing

1500
01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:49,880
Speaker 1: I get. Somebody says, oh, my kid, they got X

1501
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:52,280
Speaker 1: number of followers, blah blah blah. What would you tell

1502
01:23:52,280 --> 01:23:55,519
Speaker 1: that person? Probably everything you tell people in the music industry.

1503
01:23:55,560 --> 01:23:58,679
Speaker 1: It's ten times harder than you think. Um, it's it's

1504
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:00,759
Speaker 1: really hard. I mean people are always like, oh, Taylor,

1505
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:04,040
Speaker 1: why aren't you independent? Because I know exactly how hard

1506
01:24:04,080 --> 01:24:07,000
Speaker 1: it is, um to do that. It's like you don't

1507
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:10,240
Speaker 1: have healthcare, you know, like you're everything is on you.

1508
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:14,400
Speaker 1: You're basically running a small business and most small businesses fail, right, Um,

1509
01:24:14,479 --> 01:24:16,840
Speaker 1: And so I think it's just it's an incredible amount

1510
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:19,280
Speaker 1: of pressure. You have to really be able to handle it.

1511
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:22,080
Speaker 1: You have to be able to manage the business part

1512
01:24:22,280 --> 01:24:24,720
Speaker 1: that the public. I mean, you're a public figure when

1513
01:24:24,720 --> 01:24:27,960
Speaker 1: you become an influencer, get a following, and that's extremely

1514
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:31,519
Speaker 1: difficult to manage. Um. It's just it's hard. It's way

1515
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:34,400
Speaker 1: harder than you think. And I would say, if you

1516
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:36,840
Speaker 1: have an option to do something more stable, you know,

1517
01:24:36,920 --> 01:24:41,000
Speaker 1: keep that in your back pocket always. But okay, we

1518
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:44,120
Speaker 1: always read about the people making big money. How many

1519
01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:48,360
Speaker 1: people are really making big money, only the top one percent.

1520
01:24:48,520 --> 01:24:50,519
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the other thing that I think is

1521
01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:54,240
Speaker 1: very misconstrued is that people see it's like seeing you know,

1522
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:57,720
Speaker 1: it's classic Hollywood, right, Like you see Jennifer Aniston and

1523
01:24:57,760 --> 01:25:01,000
Speaker 1: George Clooney and these actor and you think, well, that's

1524
01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:03,080
Speaker 1: what it is, you know, to act and be in Hollywood,

1525
01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:05,240
Speaker 1: and then you realize it's actually going, you know, to

1526
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:08,840
Speaker 1: forty seven auditions for Dorito's commercial that you probably won't

1527
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:11,479
Speaker 1: even get. So it's like, you know, it's like that.

1528
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:13,799
Speaker 1: But on the internet, it's like you see Mr Beast,

1529
01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:16,719
Speaker 1: you see Charlie Demilio making you know, tens of millions

1530
01:25:16,720 --> 01:25:19,479
Speaker 1: of dollars a year. But the reality is is that

1531
01:25:19,600 --> 01:25:23,040
Speaker 1: you will probably make nothing close to that, and it's

1532
01:25:23,439 --> 01:25:26,400
Speaker 1: very hard and it's very unstable in a lot of ways.

1533
01:25:26,439 --> 01:25:29,880
Speaker 1: I mean, the traditional industry is unstable in different ways.

1534
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:32,200
Speaker 1: So I would never suggest anybody go into that either.

1535
01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:34,559
Speaker 1: But um, I just think you have to be clear

1536
01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:45,360
Speaker 1: eyed about that stuff. Okay, people understand the monetization on

1537
01:25:45,439 --> 01:25:51,439
Speaker 1: YouTube their ads. Person who has the channel or the

1538
01:25:51,479 --> 01:25:54,840
Speaker 1: influence you gets a percentage of the ads. How exactly

1539
01:25:54,840 --> 01:25:58,840
Speaker 1: are people monetizing on TikTok. And an addition, of course,

1540
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:01,840
Speaker 1: one of the great things of TikTok is you can

1541
01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:05,280
Speaker 1: be nobody and be boosted to a lot of people,

1542
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:09,000
Speaker 1: which doesn't happen on YouTube. Conversely, you can be somebody

1543
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:12,920
Speaker 1: and not be boosted more. Tell me more about that

1544
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:15,960
Speaker 1: in the monetization on TikTok. Well, I would say, first

1545
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:18,360
Speaker 1: of all, you know, ads are not the only way

1546
01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:20,599
Speaker 1: that people make money on YouTube, actually less and less.

1547
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:23,320
Speaker 1: So people make a lot of money through merch and

1548
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:26,559
Speaker 1: through productizing themselves and that's something you see on TikTok too.

1549
01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:29,400
Speaker 1: So people do make money through ads on TikTok, whether

1550
01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:31,559
Speaker 1: it's through the creator. You know, their version of like

1551
01:26:31,560 --> 01:26:35,880
Speaker 1: the YouTube Partner program is the UM the TikTok Creator

1552
01:26:35,920 --> 01:26:39,040
Speaker 1: fund UM. It functions a little bit differently. It's just

1553
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:41,240
Speaker 1: one pot of money. But basically, you know, you can

1554
01:26:41,280 --> 01:26:43,680
Speaker 1: get paid based if you get enough views on your TikTok's.

1555
01:26:43,720 --> 01:26:45,800
Speaker 1: And then also you're doing ads that our native ads.

1556
01:26:45,880 --> 01:26:48,760
Speaker 1: So say, you know, Clorox pays you to shout out

1557
01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:50,599
Speaker 1: Clorox in the video or put it in the back

1558
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:53,720
Speaker 1: of one of your TikTok's. Um, those are sort of

1559
01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:55,240
Speaker 1: lots that. There are lots of different revenue models in

1560
01:26:55,280 --> 01:27:00,000
Speaker 1: terms of advertising, and then um, e commerce and products

1561
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:01,439
Speaker 1: is how a lot of people make money too. So

1562
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:05,760
Speaker 1: merch lines um, Amazon storefronts where any time and you

1563
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:08,880
Speaker 1: know somebody, for instance, Lauren Wolf, this great lifestyle creator

1564
01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:11,960
Speaker 1: in New York, part of the Amazon Creator program. If

1565
01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:14,000
Speaker 1: I go, you know, click, I'm like, wow, I love

1566
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:16,200
Speaker 1: that dress she's wearing. I click on her Amazon shop

1567
01:27:16,200 --> 01:27:19,000
Speaker 1: in her bio, and I buy that dress from Amazon.

1568
01:27:19,360 --> 01:27:23,120
Speaker 1: She'll get a percentage of that. So affiliate revenue UM

1569
01:27:23,160 --> 01:27:26,080
Speaker 1: and a million other ways. I mean, people charge for shoutouts,

1570
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:29,439
Speaker 1: people charge for comments. Like, there's lots of different things

1571
01:27:29,479 --> 01:27:31,519
Speaker 1: that people can do to make money, and I think

1572
01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:35,439
Speaker 1: it's about developing a sustainable revenue model for yourself. Some

1573
01:27:35,479 --> 01:27:38,639
Speaker 1: people also don't even make money on YouTube or TikTok

1574
01:27:38,720 --> 01:27:40,599
Speaker 1: and they make it all on Patreon, right, they just

1575
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:45,040
Speaker 1: have a really dedicated audience that will pay that subscription revenue. Okay. Uh.

1576
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:48,040
Speaker 1: I grew up in a different era where credibility was

1577
01:27:48,240 --> 01:27:51,600
Speaker 1: king and people said no, Hey, people don't say no

1578
01:27:51,680 --> 01:27:55,280
Speaker 1: to anything. These days, the goals if you get any

1579
01:27:55,360 --> 01:27:59,519
Speaker 1: traction to become a brand. But when I look at

1580
01:27:59,560 --> 01:28:03,080
Speaker 1: the very site that people with longevity, it's still the

1581
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:06,960
Speaker 1: people who don't sell out and have credibility. What's your

1582
01:28:07,040 --> 01:28:10,000
Speaker 1: viewpoint on that? Um, I think you're right. I mean,

1583
01:28:10,040 --> 01:28:12,280
Speaker 1: you know what, somebody like Dude Perfect on YouTube, that

1584
01:28:12,400 --> 01:28:14,639
Speaker 1: group and a few their sports YouTube first, Like, that's

1585
01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:17,599
Speaker 1: a really good example of a group that has not

1586
01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:20,320
Speaker 1: sold out like they have. They have turned down so

1587
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:22,439
Speaker 1: much stuff that they could have done and cheapened out

1588
01:28:22,439 --> 01:28:24,960
Speaker 1: their brand for and they never have. Like they've never

1589
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:27,080
Speaker 1: done the gambling ads or that type of stuff. As

1590
01:28:27,120 --> 01:28:29,400
Speaker 1: far as I know, they've been creating contents the two

1591
01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:33,040
Speaker 1: thousand nine. They've built a massive media company that rivals

1592
01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:37,080
Speaker 1: any traditional sports media company in a lot of ways. Um,

1593
01:28:37,120 --> 01:28:39,880
Speaker 1: so yeah, I think, but but but Bob, that's so hard.

1594
01:28:39,920 --> 01:28:44,080
Speaker 1: As we know, everybody wants easy money. You make one,

1595
01:28:44,320 --> 01:28:46,519
Speaker 1: you know, you're like, oh, I'll make one, compromise here,

1596
01:28:46,640 --> 01:28:50,479
Speaker 1: and then you compromise here, and then suddenly I'm less

1597
01:28:50,520 --> 01:28:54,080
Speaker 1: worried about that side of it. But when I see

1598
01:28:54,240 --> 01:28:58,200
Speaker 1: somebody hawking a product, if I see him, you know,

1599
01:28:58,840 --> 01:29:02,040
Speaker 1: I'm immediately down them. Because this is one thing that

1600
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:05,639
Speaker 1: the entertainment business is still trying to cope with as

1601
01:29:05,600 --> 01:29:08,639
Speaker 1: a result of the Internet, is that in a world

1602
01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:12,560
Speaker 1: of unlimited product, consumers king and they have no loyalties.

1603
01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:17,160
Speaker 1: So I find free just to finish my statement forgetting

1604
01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:21,400
Speaker 1: someone who's selling clothing or other that whatever. Someone who says,

1605
01:29:21,439 --> 01:29:24,360
Speaker 1: well you just follow me for me, but uh, you know,

1606
01:29:24,439 --> 01:29:27,640
Speaker 1: by vote of vitamin water or whatever you ultimately you

1607
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:31,479
Speaker 1: know it says, well, I'd really rather watch somebody else. Yeah,

1608
01:29:31,520 --> 01:29:33,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's interesting. It depends on how

1609
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:37,479
Speaker 1: aligned that product is with the creator. So in the

1610
01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:40,160
Speaker 1: second half of the tens, which were sort of the

1611
01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:42,280
Speaker 1: golden age of spa Con, that's when people were just

1612
01:29:42,360 --> 01:29:45,000
Speaker 1: kind of throwing money at influencers with big audiences because

1613
01:29:45,000 --> 01:29:47,040
Speaker 1: they didn't have any sense of like targeted marketing. You

1614
01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:49,200
Speaker 1: were getting a lot of those mismatches. That's where like

1615
01:29:49,479 --> 01:29:54,160
Speaker 1: suddenly everyone was hawking the Gummy Bear hair vitamins or whatever.

1616
01:29:54,800 --> 01:29:58,080
Speaker 1: That's right. That's a bad experience for the fan because

1617
01:29:58,080 --> 01:30:00,479
Speaker 1: the fans like, why am I Like, yeah, why are

1618
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:04,040
Speaker 1: you hawking this? However, I'll say somebody, you know, there's

1619
01:30:04,120 --> 01:30:07,680
Speaker 1: somebody like Addison easter Lane, Addison ray On TikTok right,

1620
01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:10,559
Speaker 1: like she's you know, talked about her skincare journey. She

1621
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:13,439
Speaker 1: launched the skincare line. It's makeup, it's she can kind

1622
01:30:13,439 --> 01:30:15,240
Speaker 1: of work it into her content in a way that

1623
01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:18,000
Speaker 1: feels organic, and it's her brand. It has her name

1624
01:30:18,040 --> 01:30:22,040
Speaker 1: on it. So people feel a little bit more. That

1625
01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:24,880
Speaker 1: seems to be the way that a better way to

1626
01:30:24,920 --> 01:30:27,160
Speaker 1: make money. I guess, Well, let me just if you're

1627
01:30:27,200 --> 01:30:30,280
Speaker 1: selling something based on your identity, I get it. Yeah,

1628
01:30:30,680 --> 01:30:34,240
Speaker 1: But even so, most people are not. They're saying, hey,

1629
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:37,400
Speaker 1: this this brand wants to give me money, I'll take

1630
01:30:37,439 --> 01:30:40,000
Speaker 1: the money. I'll do what they want. Well, I will

1631
01:30:40,040 --> 01:30:43,960
Speaker 1: say most most influencers will not take the money unless

1632
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:46,439
Speaker 1: it aligns with their audience, and most brands don't want

1633
01:30:46,439 --> 01:30:48,840
Speaker 1: to pay that money because brands want an r o I,

1634
01:30:49,320 --> 01:30:51,600
Speaker 1: so they want to know do you have the demographic

1635
01:30:51,640 --> 01:30:54,439
Speaker 1: that we are trying to reach and and are you

1636
01:30:54,479 --> 01:30:56,679
Speaker 1: going to actually be able to convert? And if you're

1637
01:30:56,680 --> 01:30:58,800
Speaker 1: not going to convert those people, then the brand doesn't

1638
01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:00,880
Speaker 1: want to do the deal, and influencer doesn't want to

1639
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:02,800
Speaker 1: do the deal because obvious a lot of times you too,

1640
01:31:02,840 --> 01:31:04,880
Speaker 1: you get like bonuses based on your conversions and stuff

1641
01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:07,960
Speaker 1: in your sales. So I think you're I think that

1642
01:31:08,040 --> 01:31:10,000
Speaker 1: was more of a problem a few years ago, and

1643
01:31:10,080 --> 01:31:13,080
Speaker 1: I think the industry is getting more and more sophisticated,

1644
01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:16,880
Speaker 1: just the way that when when remember Bob, when like

1645
01:31:17,360 --> 01:31:19,920
Speaker 1: banner ads started out, you still be getting these like

1646
01:31:20,040 --> 01:31:22,280
Speaker 1: randomit and now you get super targeted stuff. I think

1647
01:31:22,320 --> 01:31:25,240
Speaker 1: the same is happening. If you don't have a bad blocker, right,

1648
01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:30,559
Speaker 1: there's no a yet. Let's flip the story over to

1649
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:33,680
Speaker 1: the advertiser themselves. There's a lot going on here. You

1650
01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:38,200
Speaker 1: have apples, Uh, change in the OS such that the

1651
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:42,840
Speaker 1: users can't be tracked, uh Facebook there well, people the

1652
01:31:42,920 --> 01:31:48,000
Speaker 1: advertisers obviously want targeted ads what's the advertiser view point? Now?

1653
01:31:48,040 --> 01:31:51,240
Speaker 1: On one end we have Twitter, where the advertisers many

1654
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:53,880
Speaker 1: have pulled back because they're worried about being associated with

1655
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:57,599
Speaker 1: the bad actors the platform in general. On the other treme,

1656
01:31:57,640 --> 01:32:00,240
Speaker 1: we have TikTok. What's going on in the average tis

1657
01:32:00,280 --> 01:32:03,320
Speaker 1: in community these days? Oh gosh, yeah, I mean, I

1658
01:32:03,320 --> 01:32:06,559
Speaker 1: think advertisers are just The Twitter stuff is definitely thrown

1659
01:32:06,600 --> 01:32:07,640
Speaker 1: a lot of people for a loop, and a lot

1660
01:32:07,680 --> 01:32:09,679
Speaker 1: of people have just pulled their ads bed from Twitter.

1661
01:32:10,240 --> 01:32:12,680
Speaker 1: I think more and more a lot of advertisers too,

1662
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:16,040
Speaker 1: are not fully pulling their money because they don't want

1663
01:32:16,040 --> 01:32:17,840
Speaker 1: to do it with the backlash from elon, so they've

1664
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:20,880
Speaker 1: just cut it down to basically the minimum so that

1665
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:23,720
Speaker 1: they can kind of like fade out and not you know,

1666
01:32:23,800 --> 01:32:27,479
Speaker 1: be caught in this press cycle. Um. I you know,

1667
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:32,240
Speaker 1: I think that advertisers are just they're you know, Google

1668
01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:34,559
Speaker 1: and Facebook are still king for that type of stuff.

1669
01:32:34,600 --> 01:32:36,479
Speaker 1: And I think in terms of the influencer marketing world,

1670
01:32:36,520 --> 01:32:38,679
Speaker 1: they're still trying to figure out what's the most effective

1671
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:41,559
Speaker 1: way to to market a product and a lot of

1672
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:44,639
Speaker 1: that depends on the specific campaign. Um, but there's more.

1673
01:32:44,680 --> 01:32:47,000
Speaker 1: I mean, there's more options at these people's fingertips than

1674
01:32:47,160 --> 01:32:50,280
Speaker 1: than ever before. UM, I don't know, we're going into

1675
01:32:50,320 --> 01:32:52,360
Speaker 1: kind of like I think a recession or like a

1676
01:32:52,360 --> 01:32:54,439
Speaker 1: weird downturn. So I feel like a lot of people

1677
01:32:54,439 --> 01:32:57,200
Speaker 1: have pulled back on a lot of experimental type stuff

1678
01:32:57,240 --> 01:33:00,600
Speaker 1: they were doing even last year. Let's say I'm on

1679
01:33:00,640 --> 01:33:06,439
Speaker 1: TikTok and I have a notable number of followers. Am

1680
01:33:06,479 --> 01:33:08,960
Speaker 1: I just going to hear from the brands individually or

1681
01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:12,759
Speaker 1: to Most of these people have managers or agents, maybe

1682
01:33:12,760 --> 01:33:18,559
Speaker 1: even looking for brand opportunities. What's the landscape? Yeah, definitely.

1683
01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:21,320
Speaker 1: I think once you get a certain follower, a count

1684
01:33:21,680 --> 01:33:24,519
Speaker 1: or audience size, or you're getting in a decent amount

1685
01:33:24,560 --> 01:33:27,200
Speaker 1: of attention online, you're gonna start getting hit up by

1686
01:33:27,240 --> 01:33:31,800
Speaker 1: managers and agents. UM. Now, it's just like the music industry.

1687
01:33:32,000 --> 01:33:35,360
Speaker 1: It depends. There's a lot of dubious people out there

1688
01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:38,479
Speaker 1: that purport to be managers UM, that will sign you

1689
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:42,160
Speaker 1: into really restrictive contracts and exploit you. And so I

1690
01:33:42,200 --> 01:33:45,479
Speaker 1: think that UM talent in any form needs to be

1691
01:33:45,600 --> 01:33:48,400
Speaker 1: very careful of that. UM. It's a huge problem on

1692
01:33:48,400 --> 01:33:52,080
Speaker 1: TikTok actually, UM. But there's also a lot of traditional

1693
01:33:52,160 --> 01:33:54,400
Speaker 1: industry players in the space right like U T A,

1694
01:33:54,560 --> 01:33:57,200
Speaker 1: wm ME, all all the big agencies, Brostein, all the

1695
01:33:57,200 --> 01:34:00,400
Speaker 1: big talent agencies also have you know, TikTok manage and

1696
01:34:00,439 --> 01:34:02,080
Speaker 1: so in those cases, those people will go out and

1697
01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:04,600
Speaker 1: solicit deals, and they're gonna solicit the bigger deals, and

1698
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:08,760
Speaker 1: they're going to try and negotiate partnerships, bigger, you know,

1699
01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:12,000
Speaker 1: deeper kind of working relationships instead of just like hey,

1700
01:34:12,200 --> 01:34:16,360
Speaker 1: I send you product, you post for it, but you

1701
01:34:16,400 --> 01:34:18,880
Speaker 1: are I was talking to someone who says, well, you

1702
01:34:18,920 --> 01:34:23,840
Speaker 1: know they they heard from one advertiser and she got

1703
01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:28,479
Speaker 1: five thousand for this, and you know they talked another one.

1704
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:31,960
Speaker 1: Can you make a living? Or those really few and

1705
01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:34,680
Speaker 1: far between where they're you know, brands just reaching out

1706
01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:37,800
Speaker 1: to individuals. Yeah, I mean, brands do reach out to

1707
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:40,479
Speaker 1: individuals and exactly like you said, there's no like, there's

1708
01:34:40,520 --> 01:34:46,280
Speaker 1: no standard rate for anything. Everything is negotiable. Um. Analytics

1709
01:34:46,280 --> 01:34:48,400
Speaker 1: are not great on a lot of stuff like That's

1710
01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:50,599
Speaker 1: why people do focus on things like sales and affiliate

1711
01:34:50,600 --> 01:34:53,680
Speaker 1: revenue stuff. Um. But you, I mean, you certainly can

1712
01:34:53,800 --> 01:34:55,800
Speaker 1: make a living. It just depends on the audience that

1713
01:34:55,840 --> 01:34:58,680
Speaker 1: you've cultivated, the vertical that you've cultivated it in and

1714
01:34:58,720 --> 01:35:01,160
Speaker 1: you know, are you making family friendly content? Are you

1715
01:35:01,240 --> 01:35:04,680
Speaker 1: not making family friendly content that affects the advertisers that

1716
01:35:04,720 --> 01:35:08,000
Speaker 1: you can get the deals that you do. How loyal

1717
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:09,919
Speaker 1: is your fan base? You can have millions of followers,

1718
01:35:09,920 --> 01:35:12,920
Speaker 1: but they're not that loyal versus having a hundred thousand

1719
01:35:13,160 --> 01:35:15,760
Speaker 1: true dedicated fans where they're paying you twenty dollars a

1720
01:35:15,760 --> 01:35:19,799
Speaker 1: month in subscription revenue. Right, So it just it really depends,

1721
01:35:19,920 --> 01:35:24,439
Speaker 1: and it's there's so many factors that play for each person. Okay,

1722
01:35:24,520 --> 01:35:26,800
Speaker 1: let's just go back to Twitter for a second. The

1723
01:35:26,840 --> 01:35:30,679
Speaker 1: amazing thing about the Internet, which most people were oldsters

1724
01:35:30,720 --> 01:35:33,519
Speaker 1: still don't understand, is it's is not a replica of

1725
01:35:33,560 --> 01:35:37,439
Speaker 1: the physical world. Physical world. You know, you might be

1726
01:35:37,479 --> 01:35:40,439
Speaker 1: able to drive ten miles and get a cheaper price,

1727
01:35:40,520 --> 01:35:43,519
Speaker 1: but your time is worth something, gas, etcetera. So we

1728
01:35:43,600 --> 01:35:48,320
Speaker 1: tend to have these behemoths in this world, Amazon, Google,

1729
01:35:49,240 --> 01:35:53,680
Speaker 1: So there's always backlash against the Amazon, and there's always

1730
01:35:53,760 --> 01:35:57,280
Speaker 1: people saying I'm deleting my account, deleting my account, and

1731
01:35:57,320 --> 01:36:01,679
Speaker 1: it makes no difference. Okay, so when we look at Twitter,

1732
01:36:01,760 --> 01:36:04,560
Speaker 1: I hear the same people and you hear about mastadon

1733
01:36:04,680 --> 01:36:08,320
Speaker 1: whatever blah blah. Is Twitter too big to fail? Let

1734
01:36:08,320 --> 01:36:10,760
Speaker 1: me kind of throw some other stuff in here. So

1735
01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:14,800
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs dies, Okay, the power of one individual when

1736
01:36:14,800 --> 01:36:17,920
Speaker 1: you can look at Trump and give that example how

1737
01:36:17,960 --> 01:36:21,519
Speaker 1: they can influence you know so many people. Steve Jobs

1738
01:36:21,680 --> 01:36:26,439
Speaker 1: was very much about Houston look ui interface, and since

1739
01:36:26,560 --> 01:36:30,799
Speaker 1: his death, we've moved backwards. They're more buttons. It's harder

1740
01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:36,200
Speaker 1: to use. That's one person. Okay, So Twitter, yes, if

1741
01:36:36,280 --> 01:36:41,080
Speaker 1: you want to be on the up to date news, certainly, uh,

1742
01:36:41,280 --> 01:36:46,400
Speaker 1: stuff that the major media reports that's there. Could Twitter

1743
01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:51,519
Speaker 1: ever be clips by another site because people leave or

1744
01:36:51,640 --> 01:36:55,720
Speaker 1: b but okay, it could be. Theoretically, you think it

1745
01:36:55,760 --> 01:36:59,080
Speaker 1: would happen. I think it's already happening with TikTok. I

1746
01:36:59,120 --> 01:37:02,000
Speaker 1: think that he huge part of what people would have

1747
01:37:02,040 --> 01:37:04,439
Speaker 1: gone to Twitter for. They're going to TikTok for now,

1748
01:37:05,640 --> 01:37:09,480
Speaker 1: just just slowly, because certainly there are a lot of politicals,

1749
01:37:09,479 --> 01:37:14,080
Speaker 1: a lot of major reporters on Twitter. Would they have

1750
01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:17,400
Speaker 1: a home on TikTok. There are a lot of reporters

1751
01:37:17,400 --> 01:37:20,760
Speaker 1: on on on TikTok too. It's just that it's it's

1752
01:37:20,800 --> 01:37:23,679
Speaker 1: like the shifts to digital. I don't know if you remember,

1753
01:37:23,760 --> 01:37:27,920
Speaker 1: but a big, a big controversy early in my career

1754
01:37:27,920 --> 01:37:32,040
Speaker 1: when I was a blogger was people saying our bloggers journalists,

1755
01:37:32,120 --> 01:37:36,639
Speaker 1: right do you remember that whole discussion so um and

1756
01:37:36,640 --> 01:37:38,800
Speaker 1: and people always were saying, oh, you know Taylor the rends,

1757
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:41,760
Speaker 1: she's she's just a blogger. Um. And now I think

1758
01:37:41,800 --> 01:37:44,240
Speaker 1: we're seeing that with social platforms right where you see

1759
01:37:44,240 --> 01:37:47,439
Speaker 1: these journalists coming up on platforms native right, there's news

1760
01:37:47,479 --> 01:37:50,800
Speaker 1: content creators, journalists just working on YouTube or TikTok, and

1761
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:52,880
Speaker 1: people are are sort of like, oh, you know, are

1762
01:37:52,920 --> 01:37:55,200
Speaker 1: they doing real journalism? Are they real journalists? Yes, they

1763
01:37:55,240 --> 01:37:56,880
Speaker 1: many of them are, and some of them are affiliated

1764
01:37:56,920 --> 01:38:00,960
Speaker 1: with mainstream media. Is um, will every quarter that succeeds

1765
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:03,439
Speaker 1: on Twitter transfer over to TikTok or somethink? No, But

1766
01:38:03,520 --> 01:38:06,080
Speaker 1: I think a lot of them will move and and

1767
01:38:06,120 --> 01:38:09,360
Speaker 1: sort of discipate to other platforms. I don't. I'm not

1768
01:38:09,439 --> 01:38:11,240
Speaker 1: convinced that Twitter is going to die, by the way.

1769
01:38:11,320 --> 01:38:13,720
Speaker 1: I don't. I wouldn't like make that bet at all,

1770
01:38:14,479 --> 01:38:17,759
Speaker 1: But I do think that, like what people used Twitter

1771
01:38:17,880 --> 01:38:22,120
Speaker 1: for previously, they're using other platforms for more and more

1772
01:38:23,360 --> 01:38:26,400
Speaker 1: just to stay with Twitter for a second. When Twitter

1773
01:38:26,520 --> 01:38:30,160
Speaker 1: started you just had your regular flow. Then they have

1774
01:38:30,280 --> 01:38:34,519
Speaker 1: their algorithm where you can have your you know what

1775
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:37,879
Speaker 1: they think you want to watch. Then they have their news,

1776
01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:42,920
Speaker 1: their trends, their lists. I don't Maybe I'm old school,

1777
01:38:42,960 --> 01:38:45,439
Speaker 1: but I don't find that stuff useful. I just find

1778
01:38:45,439 --> 01:38:48,760
Speaker 1: a traditional time based flow to be not that I

1779
01:38:48,800 --> 01:38:50,960
Speaker 1: don't check the other stuff, but the time based flow

1780
01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:54,160
Speaker 1: to be the most rewarding for me. What do you find? Yeah,

1781
01:38:54,360 --> 01:38:57,000
Speaker 1: I like the time being. I mean I actually prefer

1782
01:38:57,040 --> 01:39:00,679
Speaker 1: the algorithmic feed to the to the time based feed

1783
01:39:00,680 --> 01:39:03,040
Speaker 1: only because I wollow so many people. I follow eight

1784
01:39:03,040 --> 01:39:05,719
Speaker 1: thousand people because I restrict my replies. So I used

1785
01:39:06,040 --> 01:39:09,200
Speaker 1: Twitter a little bit in a weird way. But certainly,

1786
01:39:09,320 --> 01:39:12,599
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly, the feed is the core experience. Um,

1787
01:39:12,640 --> 01:39:15,960
Speaker 1: I love Twitter. Spaces Trending needs to die. I mean,

1788
01:39:16,600 --> 01:39:18,360
Speaker 1: I hate that the only time I go on there

1789
01:39:18,400 --> 01:39:20,759
Speaker 1: is to make sure that my name isn't trending again. Honestly,

1790
01:39:20,800 --> 01:39:22,960
Speaker 1: I think it's a I don't know who clicks on

1791
01:39:22,960 --> 01:39:25,640
Speaker 1: those trending things that I think it's sort of a

1792
01:39:25,680 --> 01:39:30,400
Speaker 1: bad distraction. Um. They bought Nuzzle, which was an amazing

1793
01:39:30,439 --> 01:39:34,280
Speaker 1: app that surfaced most shared links and could really tell

1794
01:39:34,320 --> 01:39:37,120
Speaker 1: you what people were saying and sort of collected conversation

1795
01:39:37,120 --> 01:39:39,200
Speaker 1: around different stories and then they just shut it down.

1796
01:39:39,280 --> 01:39:41,639
Speaker 1: And it's really too bad they didn't incorporate that into

1797
01:39:41,640 --> 01:39:44,519
Speaker 1: their product in my opinion, So if you could snap

1798
01:39:44,560 --> 01:39:49,040
Speaker 1: your fingers forgetting Elon and his personality, because this has

1799
01:39:49,080 --> 01:39:53,920
Speaker 1: been been a debate from long in the Jack Dorsey years,

1800
01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:56,519
Speaker 1: and in the investors wanted to change get rid of

1801
01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:59,880
Speaker 1: them long before Elon. What would you do to in

1802
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:04,800
Speaker 1: improve the site? Well, Number one something I've advocated as

1803
01:40:04,800 --> 01:40:06,360
Speaker 1: somebody that deals with a lot of for assement and

1804
01:40:06,439 --> 01:40:12,200
Speaker 1: doxing is um is allowing users to define their experience

1805
01:40:12,280 --> 01:40:15,120
Speaker 1: better on Twitter. A lot of things that people don't

1806
01:40:15,120 --> 01:40:17,519
Speaker 1: like about Twitter is that it's like this open, broadcast

1807
01:40:17,560 --> 01:40:20,280
Speaker 1: based social platform where you're sort of trying to reach everyone,

1808
01:40:20,360 --> 01:40:22,320
Speaker 1: and it's hard when you're new. You have to build

1809
01:40:22,360 --> 01:40:23,840
Speaker 1: up a following for it, you know, otherwise you're just

1810
01:40:23,880 --> 01:40:27,439
Speaker 1: posting to the void. I think discovery I would improve,

1811
01:40:27,560 --> 01:40:31,639
Speaker 1: and I would improve UM. I hate to say user safety,

1812
01:40:31,680 --> 01:40:34,400
Speaker 1: but more allowing users control. Right, sometimes you want to

1813
01:40:34,439 --> 01:40:37,160
Speaker 1: just post to your mutuals. It's crazy that you can't

1814
01:40:37,160 --> 01:40:39,720
Speaker 1: do that on Twitter, right, like you have to either

1815
01:40:39,800 --> 01:40:42,320
Speaker 1: post to everyone or post on a private account, but

1816
01:40:42,360 --> 01:40:45,280
Speaker 1: then you can't post mutuals only like and now they

1817
01:40:45,280 --> 01:40:47,600
Speaker 1: have this close friends thing, but it's very limited to

1818
01:40:47,600 --> 01:40:50,040
Speaker 1: only a few people. That's just the whole thing is

1819
01:40:50,080 --> 01:40:53,080
Speaker 1: a mess. I think that they need ability to segment

1820
01:40:53,120 --> 01:40:55,720
Speaker 1: your audience. You need to be able to set expiration

1821
01:40:55,840 --> 01:40:57,880
Speaker 1: dates on tweets, like the fact that tweets live forever

1822
01:40:58,040 --> 01:41:01,000
Speaker 1: is crazy to me, especially when we're moving more and

1823
01:41:01,040 --> 01:41:05,400
Speaker 1: more towards cephemeral media. So um. But yeah, the two

1824
01:41:05,400 --> 01:41:07,479
Speaker 1: things that I would really focus on our discovery because

1825
01:41:07,479 --> 01:41:09,519
Speaker 1: I think that's key to growing any kind of social platform.

1826
01:41:09,640 --> 01:41:15,760
Speaker 1: And um and customization in terms of privacy protections. And

1827
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:18,040
Speaker 1: you know he's bad at about you know, the name

1828
01:41:18,120 --> 01:41:22,000
Speaker 1: Twitter blue and your verification charging for verification? Do you

1829
01:41:22,080 --> 01:41:25,200
Speaker 1: mean that actual thing right? And you believe it's dumb?

1830
01:41:25,240 --> 01:41:28,599
Speaker 1: Why I wrote a lot. I wrote a long piece

1831
01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:30,920
Speaker 1: for The Atlantic years ago about the problems with Twitter's

1832
01:41:30,960 --> 01:41:34,400
Speaker 1: verification system. So I'm not defending the current system, but

1833
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:39,240
Speaker 1: his allowing anybody taking this thing that has become the

1834
01:41:39,920 --> 01:41:45,320
Speaker 1: Twitter check mark has authority and value because it was

1835
01:41:46,640 --> 01:41:48,920
Speaker 1: limited to a few amount of people. If you just

1836
01:41:49,080 --> 01:41:52,720
Speaker 1: go and then allow anybody to buy it. It immediately

1837
01:41:52,760 --> 01:41:56,040
Speaker 1: devalues your work, right, I think of it kind of

1838
01:41:56,080 --> 01:41:58,640
Speaker 1: like look at what like Huffington posted right with their

1839
01:41:58,680 --> 01:42:02,280
Speaker 1: contributor network or four. You're taking this valuable media brand

1840
01:42:02,320 --> 01:42:04,880
Speaker 1: and suddenly you're letting anybody post on it, and that

1841
01:42:05,040 --> 01:42:08,400
Speaker 1: ultimately devalues the brand. What he's doing is it sort

1842
01:42:08,400 --> 01:42:09,760
Speaker 1: of doing that to the check mark. So it's like

1843
01:42:09,840 --> 01:42:13,639
Speaker 1: it's it's also dangerous, as we saw, because people don't

1844
01:42:13,680 --> 01:42:17,519
Speaker 1: know who they can trust anymore. Like the average people

1845
01:42:17,560 --> 01:42:20,280
Speaker 1: are not super with it. So they see a blue checkmark,

1846
01:42:20,280 --> 01:42:23,880
Speaker 1: they still think, oh, that's trustworthy. So I think his

1847
01:42:23,960 --> 01:42:26,080
Speaker 1: whole stupid color code of verification thing is dumb. I

1848
01:42:26,080 --> 01:42:28,120
Speaker 1: think he just has an ax to grind with journalists.

1849
01:42:28,160 --> 01:42:30,719
Speaker 1: That's seriously what his skill is and what he doesn't

1850
01:42:30,760 --> 01:42:34,559
Speaker 1: realize because he's so inept at understanding these things. But

1851
01:42:34,640 --> 01:42:39,240
Speaker 1: it's like, you verifying a journalist is a service to

1852
01:42:39,320 --> 01:42:43,120
Speaker 1: the user. It's not some crown that you're bestowing on

1853
01:42:43,160 --> 01:42:47,240
Speaker 1: a journalist. You're letting average users know, wow, this is

1854
01:42:47,280 --> 01:42:50,240
Speaker 1: who I who I think it is, and I can

1855
01:42:50,280 --> 01:42:54,320
Speaker 1: trust this person that is. That is a valuable service.

1856
01:42:55,200 --> 01:42:59,160
Speaker 1: And so to take that away is ultimately degrading. These

1857
01:42:59,200 --> 01:43:03,639
Speaker 1: are experience. So pulling back the lens a little bit,

1858
01:43:03,880 --> 01:43:09,000
Speaker 1: let's talk about TikTok in China. Okay, most most people

1859
01:43:09,080 --> 01:43:12,880
Speaker 1: going on about this or not on TikTok a. To

1860
01:43:13,000 --> 01:43:15,160
Speaker 1: what degree do you believe it's a problem and be

1861
01:43:15,640 --> 01:43:18,080
Speaker 1: do you think we'll just continue to have a talk

1862
01:43:18,200 --> 01:43:20,960
Speaker 1: or there will be a change here? Well, I mean,

1863
01:43:21,080 --> 01:43:23,799
Speaker 1: I'll say that it's in Facebook's interest to just focus

1864
01:43:23,800 --> 01:43:27,000
Speaker 1: on TikTok um and I think, I mean, look, China,

1865
01:43:27,600 --> 01:43:29,680
Speaker 1: you know there there are there are reasons to be

1866
01:43:29,760 --> 01:43:34,799
Speaker 1: concerned about China owning a popular social app. Right, although

1867
01:43:34,840 --> 01:43:38,439
Speaker 1: I will say that the data is not kept in China, etcetera, etcetera.

1868
01:43:38,479 --> 01:43:42,000
Speaker 1: There's no proof that they've you know, violated the stuff

1869
01:43:42,040 --> 01:43:45,160
Speaker 1: that they've said. Um, but I my feeling is that

1870
01:43:45,240 --> 01:43:49,320
Speaker 1: it's you know, making TikTok a scapegoat is really easy,

1871
01:43:49,439 --> 01:43:51,960
Speaker 1: and that is absolutely what Facebook and Google and these

1872
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:54,360
Speaker 1: American tech companies would love. But I think we need

1873
01:43:54,400 --> 01:43:56,599
Speaker 1: to take a hard look at user privacy and data

1874
01:43:56,640 --> 01:43:59,759
Speaker 1: privacy specifically, because the truth is is that they basically

1875
01:43:59,760 --> 01:44:02,759
Speaker 1: have no data privacy. People can buy our information anywhere

1876
01:44:02,960 --> 01:44:04,479
Speaker 1: we have no control of our data. We don't have

1877
01:44:04,520 --> 01:44:08,160
Speaker 1: anything like GDPR or even so I think the bigger

1878
01:44:08,320 --> 01:44:11,040
Speaker 1: and also, there's so much money China, you know, money

1879
01:44:11,080 --> 01:44:13,600
Speaker 1: from from China in Silicon Valley. I mean, look at

1880
01:44:13,640 --> 01:44:19,320
Speaker 1: the gaming industry. It's just like it's so it's so um,

1881
01:44:19,320 --> 01:44:21,800
Speaker 1: it's it's such bs to hear these people like crow

1882
01:44:21,840 --> 01:44:25,400
Speaker 1: about China with TikTok and then turn around and you know,

1883
01:44:26,000 --> 01:44:28,600
Speaker 1: not have anything to say about the fact that, you know,

1884
01:44:28,680 --> 01:44:31,439
Speaker 1: there's tons of Chinese money in Silicon Valley and gaming

1885
01:44:31,479 --> 01:44:34,080
Speaker 1: companies and all that. So I think, um, I think

1886
01:44:34,120 --> 01:44:36,080
Speaker 1: that we need to kind of look at all of

1887
01:44:36,080 --> 01:44:41,000
Speaker 1: those economic relationships and in general just allow for more

1888
01:44:41,720 --> 01:44:45,160
Speaker 1: better data privacy protections that people can't just buy our

1889
01:44:45,240 --> 01:44:48,360
Speaker 1: data and and you know, do whatever they want. We

1890
01:44:48,400 --> 01:44:51,080
Speaker 1: have like no protections in this country. So hopefully we

1891
01:44:51,120 --> 01:44:54,680
Speaker 1: have comprehensive reform. Realistically we are ever going to have

1892
01:44:54,760 --> 01:44:58,519
Speaker 1: any reasonable privacy protection. I don't know, because you know,

1893
01:44:58,520 --> 01:45:00,720
Speaker 1: the lawmakers in this country don't know how to use

1894
01:45:00,760 --> 01:45:06,160
Speaker 1: the internet. They don't even understand stuff. Yeah, this is

1895
01:45:06,240 --> 01:45:09,320
Speaker 1: why amazing. It just blows my mind. They don't understand

1896
01:45:09,360 --> 01:45:13,720
Speaker 1: the business. They have hearings too late. They're you know, mesmerize,

1897
01:45:13,720 --> 01:45:16,599
Speaker 1: don't understand it. It's just just a waste of time.

1898
01:45:16,640 --> 01:45:21,759
Speaker 1: But staying with a similar concept that um oldsters believe

1899
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:26,080
Speaker 1: something is forever. If we talk about social media, we

1900
01:45:26,120 --> 01:45:31,760
Speaker 1: saw friends, or we saw my Space, we saw Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.

1901
01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:36,040
Speaker 1: In reality, the users have no loyalty to the platform.

1902
01:45:36,120 --> 01:45:38,519
Speaker 1: They have a loyalty to their friends and what's new

1903
01:45:38,520 --> 01:45:45,960
Speaker 1: and exciting. So what's next? Good question. Um yeah, I

1904
01:45:46,000 --> 01:45:48,240
Speaker 1: do think that Facebook and Instagram are in trouble. I

1905
01:45:48,240 --> 01:45:51,280
Speaker 1: think TikTok is clearly ascendant. I think also platforms to

1906
01:45:51,600 --> 01:45:54,320
Speaker 1: watch or use live streaming platforms like Twitch, which is

1907
01:45:54,360 --> 01:45:59,200
Speaker 1: I think under under respected for the role that it

1908
01:45:59,240 --> 01:46:02,000
Speaker 1: plays in culture and not just gaming, but the rise

1909
01:46:02,000 --> 01:46:05,280
Speaker 1: of just chatting streamers, the way that it's upending media.

1910
01:46:06,040 --> 01:46:11,120
Speaker 1: Um I yeah, I just I basically I think Facebook

1911
01:46:11,160 --> 01:46:13,240
Speaker 1: is in trouble. That's like the main one that if

1912
01:46:13,280 --> 01:46:16,040
Speaker 1: you were to like look around and see like who's

1913
01:46:16,120 --> 01:46:18,719
Speaker 1: first to struggle, it's them. Because as you mentioned, Bob,

1914
01:46:18,800 --> 01:46:22,000
Speaker 1: like you know, these companies, especially tech companies, they really

1915
01:46:22,080 --> 01:46:24,840
Speaker 1: they have somewhat of a shelf shelf life. It's hard

1916
01:46:25,479 --> 01:46:27,880
Speaker 1: for a software company like a social platform to stay

1917
01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:30,519
Speaker 1: relevant for that long because of the network effects and

1918
01:46:30,560 --> 01:46:33,880
Speaker 1: all the other stuff. And I think Facebook is in trouble,

1919
01:46:33,960 --> 01:46:36,880
Speaker 1: and TikTok and all of those types of apps are

1920
01:46:36,920 --> 01:46:39,160
Speaker 1: more on the come up. Well, I'm more interested in

1921
01:46:39,200 --> 01:46:42,559
Speaker 1: the bleeding edge, pushing the envelope in the rear. Look

1922
01:46:42,600 --> 01:46:46,559
Speaker 1: at if we look at music okay, and we look

1923
01:46:46,600 --> 01:46:49,960
Speaker 1: at Spotify, So what's that next after Spotify? Well, that's

1924
01:46:50,040 --> 01:46:52,680
Speaker 1: hard for me to conceive because Spotify is an on

1925
01:46:52,920 --> 01:46:55,880
Speaker 1: demand platform, so it's all in the history of music.

1926
01:46:55,920 --> 01:46:58,599
Speaker 1: You get it what you want. The interface can look different,

1927
01:46:59,080 --> 01:47:03,639
Speaker 1: but that since we've hit the wall, which is different

1928
01:47:03,720 --> 01:47:08,120
Speaker 1: because essentially it's a marketplace and statistically for all the

1929
01:47:08,160 --> 01:47:12,120
Speaker 1: pipe Bold playlists, they are not what dominates listening. So

1930
01:47:13,120 --> 01:47:19,160
Speaker 1: when we look at the landscape, what comes after TikTok? Well? Yeah,

1931
01:47:19,320 --> 01:47:22,519
Speaker 1: So one one big conversation that's been happening in the

1932
01:47:22,520 --> 01:47:24,880
Speaker 1: creator world especially that just becomes more and more and

1933
01:47:24,920 --> 01:47:27,040
Speaker 1: more of a discussion point is this idea of ownership.

1934
01:47:27,080 --> 01:47:28,719
Speaker 1: And this goes back to what I was talking about,

1935
01:47:28,720 --> 01:47:31,840
Speaker 1: is why I left The New York Times. Um, if

1936
01:47:31,960 --> 01:47:34,960
Speaker 1: you are creating content on the Internet and you have

1937
01:47:35,240 --> 01:47:42,080
Speaker 1: developed a audience on the Internet. You, Um, it's a

1938
01:47:42,120 --> 01:47:44,960
Speaker 1: big point of tension like that that you don't have

1939
01:47:45,080 --> 01:47:47,439
Speaker 1: direct access to them or you don't own that audience, right,

1940
01:47:47,479 --> 01:47:50,920
Speaker 1: That audience is still mediated through these platforms, and that's

1941
01:47:51,000 --> 01:47:53,960
Speaker 1: something that creators are less and less comfortable with and

1942
01:47:54,040 --> 01:47:57,519
Speaker 1: okay with, especially as these platforms proved really volatile, right

1943
01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:00,160
Speaker 1: their algorithms change, or they launched a new fee sure,

1944
01:48:00,160 --> 01:48:03,840
Speaker 1: and suddenly their prioritizing that. So the big thing now,

1945
01:48:04,080 --> 01:48:07,160
Speaker 1: I think is direct connection with an audience and ownership.

1946
01:48:07,240 --> 01:48:10,400
Speaker 1: So you see people moving towards things like subscription based

1947
01:48:10,439 --> 01:48:14,519
Speaker 1: revenue UM and stuff like sub stack, even not to

1948
01:48:14,520 --> 01:48:16,200
Speaker 1: say that sub stack is gonna be around forever, but

1949
01:48:16,320 --> 01:48:19,360
Speaker 1: something where you actually have a you have the contact

1950
01:48:19,400 --> 01:48:23,160
Speaker 1: information for your fans and followers UM, and you can

1951
01:48:23,160 --> 01:48:27,360
Speaker 1: reach them directly without an algorithm. That is very appealing

1952
01:48:27,400 --> 01:48:29,519
Speaker 1: for creators. And if you look at a lot of

1953
01:48:30,040 --> 01:48:32,280
Speaker 1: creators that are successful these days that are coming up,

1954
01:48:32,320 --> 01:48:34,479
Speaker 1: there are people that have built that direct relationship with

1955
01:48:34,479 --> 01:48:36,439
Speaker 1: their audience and then own a lot of their content

1956
01:48:37,120 --> 01:48:39,120
Speaker 1: UM and so I think that's just going to be

1957
01:48:39,160 --> 01:48:41,760
Speaker 1: a bigger I think whatever platforms comes next, ownership is

1958
01:48:41,800 --> 01:48:44,080
Speaker 1: going to be a big part of that, allowing people

1959
01:48:44,120 --> 01:48:48,280
Speaker 1: to own that relationship with their audience control you know,

1960
01:48:48,320 --> 01:48:50,240
Speaker 1: who sees their stuff and how they reach people. I

1961
01:48:50,280 --> 01:48:54,360
Speaker 1: just think whatever comes next will be more about that. Okay.

1962
01:48:54,360 --> 01:48:56,960
Speaker 1: I don't wanna have a discussion about substecs business model.

1963
01:48:57,040 --> 01:49:01,720
Speaker 1: That's going in the wrong. But on better it now

1964
01:49:01,800 --> 01:49:06,000
Speaker 1: says on your handles, subscribe to my sub stack. Oh

1965
01:49:06,120 --> 01:49:08,840
Speaker 1: I can't change. I can't change that because I changed it.

1966
01:49:08,920 --> 01:49:11,280
Speaker 1: I made it that for one day and then Ellen

1967
01:49:11,400 --> 01:49:14,000
Speaker 1: made that change where you can't change if you're verified,

1968
01:49:14,040 --> 01:49:18,160
Speaker 1: you can't change your name anymore. Okay. I was wondering

1969
01:49:18,200 --> 01:49:20,559
Speaker 1: because you don't post that off and on something. But

1970
01:49:20,600 --> 01:49:24,880
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get everyone's emails. So subscribe to myself

1971
01:49:24,920 --> 01:49:27,200
Speaker 1: stack and give me your email address. I do send

1972
01:49:27,240 --> 01:49:30,559
Speaker 1: it sometimes I send it to promote articles usually, Okay,

1973
01:49:30,560 --> 01:49:34,320
Speaker 1: Just so I understand In terms of substack, do you

1974
01:49:34,360 --> 01:49:36,720
Speaker 1: own your data a hundred percent or do they have

1975
01:49:36,760 --> 01:49:40,160
Speaker 1: any access to your the emails, you collect, etcetera. You

1976
01:49:40,200 --> 01:49:41,760
Speaker 1: own your you own your email list, and you can

1977
01:49:41,760 --> 01:49:43,760
Speaker 1: take it wherever you want. You could leave stuff back

1978
01:49:43,760 --> 01:49:49,320
Speaker 1: to but they don't get it. Hm. Okay, Okay, So

1979
01:49:50,080 --> 01:49:55,559
Speaker 1: just for the naysayers, and this tends to be the

1980
01:49:55,600 --> 01:49:59,840
Speaker 1: older audience, people over the age of thirty five, who

1981
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:06,720
Speaker 1: poo poo TikTok, etcetera. Explain, tell them what is good

1982
01:50:06,760 --> 01:50:10,400
Speaker 1: about TikTok, why they should be on the platform, and

1983
01:50:10,560 --> 01:50:16,800
Speaker 1: how to use the platform to their advantage. And definitely, uh, well,

1984
01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:18,920
Speaker 1: I'll never say someone has to be on social media.

1985
01:50:18,920 --> 01:50:21,080
Speaker 1: I'm very jealous of people that can live their life

1986
01:50:21,200 --> 01:50:24,200
Speaker 1: and never set foot on on these apps. So you know,

1987
01:50:24,280 --> 01:50:26,040
Speaker 1: it's if you don't want to do it, you don't

1988
01:50:26,040 --> 01:50:27,880
Speaker 1: have to. But I will say that if you want

1989
01:50:27,880 --> 01:50:31,040
Speaker 1: to reach people at scales, TikTok is the place to go. Um.

1990
01:50:31,080 --> 01:50:33,559
Speaker 1: It can seem a little bit overwhelming because it's a

1991
01:50:33,760 --> 01:50:36,320
Speaker 1: it's a creative tool. You know, they have a lot

1992
01:50:36,320 --> 01:50:39,320
Speaker 1: of creative tools. I should say, uh, but it's pretty

1993
01:50:39,360 --> 01:50:41,600
Speaker 1: simple to post. I mean it's you hold down the

1994
01:50:41,600 --> 01:50:45,160
Speaker 1: middle button and record a video, just the way that

1995
01:50:45,200 --> 01:50:48,879
Speaker 1: you went on Instagram stories. Um. I think it's valuable

1996
01:50:48,920 --> 01:50:51,040
Speaker 1: because that's just where a lot of the cultural conversation

1997
01:50:51,080 --> 01:50:53,200
Speaker 1: is happening. As you mentioned earlier, that's where people are

1998
01:50:53,200 --> 01:50:56,120
Speaker 1: going to search for content and to shop. So if

1999
01:50:56,200 --> 01:50:58,880
Speaker 1: you are promoting anything, or you want to be in

2000
01:50:58,920 --> 01:51:03,240
Speaker 1: the cultural discussion, and that is where people are going. Okay, wait,

2001
01:51:03,320 --> 01:51:06,439
Speaker 1: let's start one on one because most people, especially as

2002
01:51:06,439 --> 01:51:11,839
Speaker 1: you get older, lurkers, So forget about creating content. Start

2003
01:51:11,920 --> 01:51:16,599
Speaker 1: from downloading the app. Well, if you download the app,

2004
01:51:16,960 --> 01:51:19,040
Speaker 1: I mean, the good thing about TikTok, I'll say, is

2005
01:51:19,080 --> 01:51:21,720
Speaker 1: that you don't have to follow anyone. You can just

2006
01:51:21,800 --> 01:51:24,000
Speaker 1: download the app and watch a bunch of videos and

2007
01:51:24,240 --> 01:51:27,920
Speaker 1: the algorithm will learn what you like and it will

2008
01:51:27,960 --> 01:51:30,479
Speaker 1: start to deliver you a very engaging feed. I mean,

2009
01:51:30,479 --> 01:51:33,000
Speaker 1: one of my friends, she was extremely into cooking and

2010
01:51:33,600 --> 01:51:35,160
Speaker 1: she just downloaded too. She still I don't think she

2011
01:51:35,240 --> 01:51:37,840
Speaker 1: still has an account even but she you know, she'll

2012
01:51:37,880 --> 01:51:40,240
Speaker 1: just you can just swipe through and watch a lot

2013
01:51:40,240 --> 01:51:43,040
Speaker 1: of engage videos. It's like going on YouTube, right, I mean,

2014
01:51:43,040 --> 01:51:45,559
Speaker 1: we all go on YouTube to watch and cooking videos.

2015
01:51:45,600 --> 01:51:48,120
Speaker 1: I would say TikTok is great for learning, you know,

2016
01:51:48,479 --> 01:51:50,879
Speaker 1: for skills. I tried to pay a little bit slower

2017
01:51:50,920 --> 01:51:53,360
Speaker 1: because a little bit slower because for most people, the

2018
01:51:53,439 --> 01:51:59,800
Speaker 1: initial hurdle is difficult. Download the app and then you say, oh,

2019
01:52:00,080 --> 01:52:03,160
Speaker 1: just watch videos. You download the app and tell them

2020
01:52:03,320 --> 01:52:08,800
Speaker 1: what happens to get them through their anxiety. Okay, oh god,

2021
01:52:08,880 --> 01:52:11,479
Speaker 1: I have to. It's been a while. I don't know

2022
01:52:11,560 --> 01:52:15,280
Speaker 1: the exact user flow in terms of UM, in terms

2023
01:52:15,360 --> 01:52:18,400
Speaker 1: of what like what that pathway is when you download,

2024
01:52:18,479 --> 01:52:21,960
Speaker 1: I don't know the screens UM. Basically, you download the app.

2025
01:52:22,000 --> 01:52:24,240
Speaker 1: I will say, you download the app, and you are

2026
01:52:24,840 --> 01:52:27,880
Speaker 1: very quickly funneled into the fore you page. That is

2027
01:52:28,000 --> 01:52:29,800
Speaker 1: what they want you too. So you might have to

2028
01:52:29,800 --> 01:52:32,639
Speaker 1: set up an account. You might not UM. I think

2029
01:52:32,640 --> 01:52:34,280
Speaker 1: you might. You know, you might have to register for

2030
01:52:34,320 --> 01:52:36,679
Speaker 1: some that will give you an automatic user name or whatever.

2031
01:52:37,479 --> 01:52:40,040
Speaker 1: But then it will just feed you. It will see

2032
01:52:40,080 --> 01:52:44,560
Speaker 1: you will be on a full screen video and it

2033
01:52:44,600 --> 01:52:46,280
Speaker 1: will be up to you to watch that video or

2034
01:52:46,360 --> 01:52:48,880
Speaker 1: swipe up and see the next video. And with every

2035
01:52:48,920 --> 01:52:53,960
Speaker 1: swipe and every like, the algorithm will learn more about

2036
01:52:53,960 --> 01:52:56,120
Speaker 1: you and it will deliver you, you know, the content

2037
01:52:56,160 --> 01:52:58,960
Speaker 1: that you want to see. So it's it's really not

2038
01:52:59,160 --> 01:53:01,920
Speaker 1: hard to download TikTok like it's it's a that's the

2039
01:53:01,960 --> 01:53:05,160
Speaker 1: reason that they've scaled so much, right Like parents, I

2040
01:53:05,200 --> 01:53:07,559
Speaker 1: mean there's so many there's more parents on TikTok and Facebook.

2041
01:53:07,600 --> 01:53:09,600
Speaker 1: Sometimes I feel like I know that's not true, but

2042
01:53:09,640 --> 01:53:14,800
Speaker 1: it feels like that sometimes, Okay, and pulling back the

2043
01:53:14,920 --> 01:53:19,520
Speaker 1: lens all the way we're social media in the landscape,

2044
01:53:19,680 --> 01:53:23,479
Speaker 1: as you say, the government, certainly in America you use

2045
01:53:23,560 --> 01:53:25,800
Speaker 1: a little bit better or at least is bringing up

2046
01:53:25,840 --> 01:53:31,320
Speaker 1: the issues in terms of what is the effect of

2047
01:53:31,439 --> 01:53:36,440
Speaker 1: social media on the world at large, terms of everything

2048
01:53:36,560 --> 01:53:42,200
Speaker 1: from consumerisism, politics to uh, how it affects buying influences.

2049
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:45,160
Speaker 1: Because many people have social media in a bubble as

2050
01:53:45,280 --> 01:53:48,320
Speaker 1: large as it is, they see, well, it doesn't impact

2051
01:53:48,400 --> 01:53:51,439
Speaker 1: the rest of the world. To what degree does it?

2052
01:53:51,560 --> 01:53:54,720
Speaker 1: And to what degree is it shaping our culture? I

2053
01:53:54,720 --> 01:53:57,599
Speaker 1: mean it's completely shaping our culture. I think our pop

2054
01:53:57,640 --> 01:54:01,320
Speaker 1: culture is Internet culture at this point. There is no distinction.

2055
01:54:01,920 --> 01:54:05,280
Speaker 1: If you think about like the music, the entertainment we consume,

2056
01:54:05,360 --> 01:54:09,800
Speaker 1: our political ecosystem is completely worked by the attention economy. Um.

2057
01:54:10,439 --> 01:54:12,800
Speaker 1: I mean I think we were seeing that even preach Trump. Um.

2058
01:54:13,160 --> 01:54:17,800
Speaker 1: It's affecting everything. I think connecting people at scale has

2059
01:54:17,960 --> 01:54:22,439
Speaker 1: massive implications, um and literally everything. That's the core of

2060
01:54:22,520 --> 01:54:24,800
Speaker 1: my beat. That's what I got into covering this whole

2061
01:54:24,840 --> 01:54:27,599
Speaker 1: world for is that it's not just a bunch of

2062
01:54:27,600 --> 01:54:30,960
Speaker 1: teenagers making videos on the internet. This these types of

2063
01:54:30,960 --> 01:54:36,880
Speaker 1: technologies and communication technology in general. UM is it can

2064
01:54:36,920 --> 01:54:40,640
Speaker 1: affect everything, business life, you know, literally anything you can

2065
01:54:40,760 --> 01:54:43,240
Speaker 1: you can think of. Um, there's a great talk from

2066
01:54:43,320 --> 01:54:46,440
Speaker 1: this UM. I can't remember who it was who gave it,

2067
01:54:46,520 --> 01:54:48,440
Speaker 1: but it was. It was at XO x O and

2068
01:54:48,480 --> 01:54:50,640
Speaker 1: he was talking which is a tech festival that doesn't

2069
01:54:50,640 --> 01:54:53,200
Speaker 1: happen anymore. But UM, this guy was talking about the

2070
01:54:53,240 --> 01:54:55,160
Speaker 1: Internet as a people connector and how the goal of

2071
01:54:55,200 --> 01:54:58,240
Speaker 1: Internet has always been to sort of connected people. And

2072
01:54:58,280 --> 01:55:00,000
Speaker 1: I think social media is the first time we're seeing

2073
01:55:00,160 --> 01:55:03,200
Speaker 1: stuff happen at scale and seeing those connections happen at scale.

2074
01:55:03,240 --> 01:55:05,200
Speaker 1: Obviously there's been a lot of downsize, but there's so

2075
01:55:05,240 --> 01:55:10,360
Speaker 1: many upsides too, and it's not going anywhere. I think

2076
01:55:10,360 --> 01:55:12,720
Speaker 1: things are changing in the social landscape. Not everyone wants

2077
01:55:12,760 --> 01:55:15,600
Speaker 1: to reach every person on earth at scale at at

2078
01:55:15,600 --> 01:55:19,360
Speaker 1: all times. I think we're realizing that that's generally not

2079
01:55:19,400 --> 01:55:22,720
Speaker 1: always a good idea. But but it's you know, the

2080
01:55:22,760 --> 01:55:25,360
Speaker 1: core of the Internet is still as a people connector

2081
01:55:26,800 --> 01:55:29,880
Speaker 1: and what's your personal dream? And I mean, you know,

2082
01:55:30,640 --> 01:55:32,839
Speaker 1: as you go down the pike, you're in your thirties

2083
01:55:32,920 --> 01:55:35,240
Speaker 1: now one can easily do the math when you graduated

2084
01:55:35,240 --> 01:55:38,560
Speaker 1: from college and you just want to do this to

2085
01:55:38,600 --> 01:55:41,000
Speaker 1: the end of time or is there some you know,

2086
01:55:41,160 --> 01:55:44,120
Speaker 1: something on the horizon that you right now say well

2087
01:55:44,120 --> 01:55:47,240
Speaker 1: I'd love to be or do that. Yeah. I mean,

2088
01:55:47,560 --> 01:55:50,240
Speaker 1: I my whole goal with my career, and I've had

2089
01:55:50,280 --> 01:55:53,720
Speaker 1: a million different jobs and stuff, is just to help

2090
01:55:53,760 --> 01:55:58,240
Speaker 1: people understand and the Internet and to take creative work

2091
01:55:58,480 --> 01:56:02,280
Speaker 1: on the Internet seriously, Like I really really really want

2092
01:56:02,320 --> 01:56:04,680
Speaker 1: that as somebody that does creative work on the Internet,

2093
01:56:04,720 --> 01:56:08,200
Speaker 1: I just want people to understand that that that online

2094
01:56:08,240 --> 01:56:11,000
Speaker 1: life is kind of our default reality now and people

2095
01:56:11,000 --> 01:56:13,920
Speaker 1: shouldn't dismiss that. So I guess my my dream is

2096
01:56:13,960 --> 01:56:16,080
Speaker 1: to impact the media and to build a better media

2097
01:56:16,120 --> 01:56:19,200
Speaker 1: ecosystem and do whatever I have to do to get there.

2098
01:56:19,360 --> 01:56:22,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I want in ten years there to be

2099
01:56:22,640 --> 01:56:26,400
Speaker 1: a mediate ecosystem where one we're not condescending, you know,

2100
01:56:26,440 --> 01:56:28,400
Speaker 1: to reporters, not saying that you're doing this, but it

2101
01:56:28,440 --> 01:56:30,200
Speaker 1: happens a lot on time, like where it's not where

2102
01:56:30,240 --> 01:56:33,120
Speaker 1: it's laughable to suggest that, oh, because a reporter uses

2103
01:56:33,160 --> 01:56:36,400
Speaker 1: Twitter a lot, that they're you know, self promotional or whatever.

2104
01:56:36,480 --> 01:56:38,480
Speaker 1: I think that we should just take all of that

2105
01:56:38,520 --> 01:56:40,400
Speaker 1: stuff as a given and think, well, what does that

2106
01:56:40,440 --> 01:56:43,280
Speaker 1: mean for media? I want a media landscape that's more

2107
01:56:43,320 --> 01:56:47,280
Speaker 1: diverse that Pete, that that journalists are more secure in

2108
01:56:47,320 --> 01:56:50,400
Speaker 1: their jobs, and that they have ownership over their work

2109
01:56:50,440 --> 01:56:53,360
Speaker 1: and can see the upsides of their success, you know,

2110
01:56:53,400 --> 01:56:56,920
Speaker 1: as much as these media companies have seen. So um yeah,

2111
01:56:56,960 --> 01:56:58,360
Speaker 1: those are all the things. And I don't know that

2112
01:56:58,400 --> 01:57:00,440
Speaker 1: I'll always be a writer. I've definitely not always been

2113
01:57:00,440 --> 01:57:03,240
Speaker 1: a writer. At My background is in strategy, um and

2114
01:57:03,240 --> 01:57:06,120
Speaker 1: and theis dev and audience development. So maybe I'll go

2115
01:57:06,160 --> 01:57:10,320
Speaker 1: back to doing that or something, but just something to

2116
01:57:10,400 --> 01:57:14,280
Speaker 1: make the media, you know, you know, build a version

2117
01:57:14,280 --> 01:57:18,080
Speaker 1: of media that that I want to see. Okay, Taylor,

2118
01:57:18,160 --> 01:57:20,760
Speaker 1: this has been great. You know. The problem is is

2119
01:57:20,800 --> 01:57:23,120
Speaker 1: there's well to your advantage. On one level, there's only

2120
01:57:23,160 --> 01:57:25,880
Speaker 1: one of you. I can't say, well, follow and pay

2121
01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:28,360
Speaker 1: attention to the articles of Taylor the Rands and then

2122
01:57:28,400 --> 01:57:30,280
Speaker 1: this person in that person, I don't know who those

2123
01:57:30,320 --> 01:57:34,200
Speaker 1: other people were were. And for those who don't realize

2124
01:57:34,240 --> 01:57:38,480
Speaker 1: you were history or your CV, you're really the authority.

2125
01:57:38,880 --> 01:57:40,880
Speaker 1: So I want to thank you so much for taking

2126
01:57:40,920 --> 01:57:43,480
Speaker 1: the time talk to my audience. Well, this is so

2127
01:57:43,680 --> 01:57:46,680
Speaker 1: fun because you're such an icon and I'm very honored

2128
01:57:46,720 --> 01:57:49,120
Speaker 1: to be included, and to be on this podcast is

2129
01:57:49,120 --> 01:57:53,120
Speaker 1: so fun to chat. Wow. And I'll leave it at

2130
01:57:53,160 --> 01:57:56,200
Speaker 1: that till next time. This is Bob Leftson,