Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie CURRTT and this is next question.
Speaker 1: What's your Alan coming touchdown? Did you first fall for
Speaker 1: the wayfish Scot in Romeo Michelle's high school reunion? Since
Speaker 1: this is the last night of school and all, would
Speaker 1: you care to dance with me once? Now? Or was
Speaker 1: it his romantic hijinks and Emma that hooked you? Who
Speaker 1: can think of Miss Smith when Miss Woodhouse is na
Speaker 1: Maybe you're more of a golden eyed bond boy fan.
Speaker 1: I am invincible spy kids get the cunning and intelligence
Speaker 1: of the world's greatest espionage agents. Oh, rolled into tiny
Speaker 1: packages I calls the good wife. Can I say son
Speaker 1: of a bitch? Or is that too salty? Oh? It's
Speaker 1: got to be cabaret. There are almost too many to count.
Speaker 1: Alan Cumming is a renaissance man of his own making,
Speaker 1: from theater to TV and film. He's a chameleon who
Speaker 1: melts into every role he takes on. But he doesn't
Speaker 1: stop there. He owns a club in New York, club
Speaker 1: Coming I Went There Once. He also started his own
Speaker 1: perfume line, Coming the Fragrance. He's an outspoken advocate for
Speaker 1: lgbt Q rights. He's also the author of a book
Speaker 1: of fiction, one memoir, and now a second memoir called Baggage.
Speaker 1: I just constantly talk about myself from a moment I
Speaker 1: wake up to moment to go to bed. Alan and
Speaker 1: I spoke right before his book came out, And no
Speaker 1: offense to everyone else I've interviewed. But he's just about
Speaker 1: the most charming human on the planet who really knows
Speaker 1: how to tell a good story. I did have another
Speaker 1: tattoo that was on my body, but I removed by
Speaker 1: Lazer that has had a young gentleman's name on it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I've done that, Katy never done that. Never got
Speaker 1: met someone a two weeks later, had their name tattooed
Speaker 1: on your body. Wanted to know were you? Were you
Speaker 1: intoxicated at the time in a way because I when
Speaker 1: I write about this in the book, I could. I
Speaker 1: called him Adonis and I was. I think it's just
Speaker 1: this man I had a short lived relationship with. I
Speaker 1: feel like I was the victim of a chemical attack,
Speaker 1: you know, like that sort of chemistry that you have
Speaker 1: with someone in the sort of you know that the
Speaker 1: in doorphins or whatever is released and you'r you find
Speaker 1: yourself doing things you're completely out of control with desire
Speaker 1: or lust or whatever it is. And after two weeks
Speaker 1: of knowing each other, we decided we'd get our names
Speaker 1: tattooed on each other's groins. And I thought that was
Speaker 1: the most sensible thing I've ever done. I really did.
Speaker 1: I thought it was completely sensible. And then four months
Speaker 1: after that we split up. When I was left with
Speaker 1: the with the with the name Raven on my on
Speaker 1: my groin, and I got what's hilarious is that I got?
Speaker 1: I got it. I went. I was in l am
Speaker 1: in a film and there was a there was a
Speaker 1: special you know, tattoo removable place at Cedar Sinai Hospital.
Speaker 1: So I went, and I have to go several times.
Speaker 1: It's really so they laser it off and you can
Speaker 1: hear this and it's the it's the sound of the
Speaker 1: ink exploding in your body. Is it more painful getting
Speaker 1: it removed than to actually get a tattoo? Yeah, because
Speaker 1: then also you keep You've got to keep going back,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not just once. You do it several
Speaker 1: times and it is more painful. And then also because
Speaker 1: it goes all scabby and yucky and that as well.
Speaker 1: And so, but the thing was when I went. When
Speaker 1: I eventually saw him afterwards, so you got a year afterwards.
Speaker 1: He said you still love your tattoo and said no,
Speaker 1: i'd mind wrenched from my body by laser. And he said,
Speaker 1: I said, you used to love yours? He said kind of,
Speaker 1: and he he pulled down his pants and where it
Speaker 1: used to see Alan, it now says balance. That's very clever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's that good. I was going to say, what could
Speaker 1: you have done with his name? Ravenous? Craven? I've taken
Speaker 1: a wee bit of the end often been raver. It
Speaker 1: was all my friends are delighted and telling me the
Speaker 1: things that I could do, and you know it was yes,
Speaker 1: done done. Oh my friend David wanted to done Raven.
Speaker 1: That's what he was like, do you end at the
Speaker 1: beginning of I was like, all right, I feel polish enough,
Speaker 1: you don't need to do. But instead you got it removed. Well,
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about your memoir because it's so exciting,
Speaker 1: and I know you're tired of talking about it, but
Speaker 1: I don't know. Let's give it. Let's give a dry
Speaker 1: So it's called baggage. And I feel like, Alan, you've
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in your adult life unloading
Speaker 1: yours because this is your second memoir, of course, and
Speaker 1: and the first was really powerful about your dysfunctional relationship
Speaker 1: with your father, who was who was terrible, and I
Speaker 1: thought it was incredible that it had such an impact,
Speaker 1: and you from so many people who were able to
Speaker 1: to deal with or or metabolize their own dysfunctional relationships
Speaker 1: with with a parent. So so that was really the
Speaker 1: focal point of your first memoir. And you wanted to
Speaker 1: do another one because well, mostly because a couple of reasons,
Speaker 1: of course, but mostly because I as a reaction to
Speaker 1: the reaction to my first one, because I think the
Speaker 1: first one it was, you know, I had this very
Speaker 1: violent and abusive father, and I felt the way that
Speaker 1: it was. I mean, look, I was so excited ultimately
Speaker 1: by the way that it helped so many people and
Speaker 1: people keep writing me and I'd be able to talk
Speaker 1: to my abuse or I've talked all that stuff you
Speaker 1: just mentioned. But also there was a retric which sort
Speaker 1: of said Alan has triumphed, Alan has overcome Alan has
Speaker 1: you know, Alan has conquered this terrible, dark past. And
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a very American things sort of
Speaker 1: try and tie up things and make it all like
Speaker 1: it's done, that we've done this, instead of just thinking
Speaker 1: I have you know, I am happy and I have
Speaker 1: a life that I but I've not overcoming. It's still
Speaker 1: a part of me. It's always going to be a
Speaker 1: part of me. And they but all like that. Oh,
Speaker 1: we all have baggage or trauma shipped in our lives
Speaker 1: and we don't the moment you ignore it and say,
Speaker 1: oh I don't and deny it, then it's just going
Speaker 1: to fester and come back to bite you in the bomb.
Speaker 1: And actually it's you just have to be open about
Speaker 1: and honest and you know, like then in the pandemic.
Speaker 1: I think it's been really interesting how we've all understood
Speaker 1: the value of discussing our mental health and checking in
Speaker 1: on each other's mental health. It's it's something we don't
Speaker 1: haven't done as a culture before. And so actually, I
Speaker 1: think that's all that I'm asking people to do, is
Speaker 1: to not think of me as someone who has absolutely
Speaker 1: triumphed over something and killed it. I'm actually living with
Speaker 1: something and I've managed it. I've managed to make my life,
Speaker 1: and I think I just want to normalize the trauma
Speaker 1: and that damage that we've all got we all and
Speaker 1: not to Let's just not pretend that we can get
Speaker 1: over something and just you just get better at dealing
Speaker 1: with it. How do you think, I mean, obviously there's
Speaker 1: a multitude of ways, but when you think about how
Speaker 1: your abusive father, how how that relationship continues to manifest itself,
Speaker 1: and the demons that you have to continue to fight, well,
Speaker 1: I I get very triggered by angry men. I I
Speaker 1: used to try and fix people who are angry. I
Speaker 1: used to have a obsession with trying to fix I've
Speaker 1: had several relationships. What I was just basically trying to
Speaker 1: fix angry people. I thought it was my fault. I
Speaker 1: thought there must be something I've done. I thought there
Speaker 1: was something I could do to stop them being angry.
Speaker 1: I was seeking the familiar, and I think that that
Speaker 1: I've got I've got over that, thank goodness. But I
Speaker 1: do get very triggered by by angry angry men, and
Speaker 1: I just you know, it's something I just got to
Speaker 1: be vigilant about. Some people. People have a right to
Speaker 1: be angry and bit out of control. The rational anger
Speaker 1: I find difficult, and people I find it when people
Speaker 1: are sort of trying to bring me down. I feel
Speaker 1: quite confident about myself, but but I'm aware that people
Speaker 1: are sometimes, you know, I'm sure you know, there's if
Speaker 1: when you're well known and sort of seen as being accomplished,
Speaker 1: sometimes you go into scenarios and environments where people want
Speaker 1: to bring you down a peg or two and it's
Speaker 1: sort of just their way of making themselves feel better
Speaker 1: about themselves. And I find that that's very triggering for
Speaker 1: me because I want to allow them to do that
Speaker 1: and I but also I know it's not fair and
Speaker 1: I want to so I have to. I really try
Speaker 1: hard to let people do their ship, but not me,
Speaker 1: not be affected by it, not to make me sort
Speaker 1: of bring them down with me. So that are things
Speaker 1: like that. And then also, you know, another thing that
Speaker 1: I feel um talk about it, but it is the
Speaker 1: fact that I've never had children. I feel that I
Speaker 1: I did have a spell when I you know, I
Speaker 1: started the book by talking about trying to have a
Speaker 1: child with my ex wife and now, in a way,
Speaker 1: how grateful I am that that wasn't possible or didn't
Speaker 1: happen because we split up and everything and that and
Speaker 1: me me, me thinking about being a father is what
Speaker 1: precipitated me remembering a whole lot of stuff from my
Speaker 1: childhood that I had repressed and then having an ever
Speaker 1: speake down. And so now I did try. I did
Speaker 1: think about any kids with a couple of people at
Speaker 1: other partners, and you know, and some people you know
Speaker 1: wanted my sperm and all that stuff. I was going
Speaker 1: to do that with the next and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: But now I'm fifty six, I'm not going to have kids,
Speaker 1: and I I don't I don't want to. But in
Speaker 1: the writing of this book and thinking about it and
Speaker 1: talking about myself endlessly, I sort of think, well, I
Speaker 1: write this thing, I say, you know, I have lots
Speaker 1: of young friends, people who are could be my children.
Speaker 1: And I have friends holleges. But I actually love having
Speaker 1: young friends. I think it's really great to sort of find,
Speaker 1: you know, to keep in touch with what's happening and
Speaker 1: my assistants twenty six. I think it's great to sort
Speaker 1: of think, what's your life like now? And you know,
Speaker 1: and and and it is like having you know, obviously
Speaker 1: it's a big grown up but I am old enough
Speaker 1: to be dad and stuff like that. And I but
Speaker 1: and so in a way I have become the father
Speaker 1: I wish i'd had, But it's no accident that he
Speaker 1: is childless. Are you Are you sorry Alan that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, I'm not sorry. I really love
Speaker 1: my life. I don't want, oh God, the idea of
Speaker 1: having a kid now, ben no, but that you didn't
Speaker 1: ever I think I'm I wonder if part of the
Speaker 1: reason are not part of I wonder if the reason
Speaker 1: i'm I wonder if the reason I didn't was that
Speaker 1: I was it I would become my father. And so
Speaker 1: you know, that's how far has reached, still still comes
Speaker 1: and I I don't like that. I don't like the
Speaker 1: fact that I have avoided something in my life that
Speaker 1: I didn't avoid. I tried, it just didn't happen. Um,
Speaker 1: But I ultimately stayed away from it because I I
Speaker 1: have It's triggering for me and it's weird. And you know,
Speaker 1: if if when I was trying to eight and I
Speaker 1: was trying to get pregnant with my wife, that's what
Speaker 1: passivity is of me having a huge my mind completely
Speaker 1: brought all these images back. And you know it did
Speaker 1: that for a reason. It did that too, because I
Speaker 1: had never been able to deal with them before. I
Speaker 1: had not. I wasn't I was too little and too
Speaker 1: young to process what was happening to me. So it
Speaker 1: waited until I was going to go into that same
Speaker 1: sort of arena again. Father. Uh, the patriarchy, I suppose,
Speaker 1: And I feel that in my mind this is powerful
Speaker 1: to do that and then too, you know, make me
Speaker 1: have all those images and all those feelings and then
Speaker 1: to kind of break down. Then I think it is
Speaker 1: as equally as powerful to perhaps make persuade me not
Speaker 1: to do something, just in case I wasn't frety. You know.
Speaker 1: It's just it's that transparence of the intergenerational transparence of
Speaker 1: trauma is a is a thing, you know, it's a
Speaker 1: powerful thing. You can your DNA can be changed. It's
Speaker 1: been tested. Your DNA can be changed by the trauma
Speaker 1: that your parents have endured. Do you feel like, and
Speaker 1: then I want to talk about this new memoir, but
Speaker 1: do you feel, having written about your dad in the
Speaker 1: first one, that you understand it. Maybe you don't forgive him,
Speaker 1: but that you understand what were the forces that shaped
Speaker 1: him to be the monster he sounds like he was.
Speaker 1: I mean, I sort of I think, actually I do
Speaker 1: forgive him, and I'm not sure. I do understand it
Speaker 1: all the sports, I mean there's some I'm not I'm
Speaker 1: not sure, and I'll never be sure and never be
Speaker 1: able to be sure. I think he had many personality disorders,
Speaker 1: and I think he was mentally ill. Absolutely. I think
Speaker 1: he was abused by his father, yes, and he didn't
Speaker 1: break that psycle of course. That's also what terrifies me,
Speaker 1: or terrified me that I would not be able to
Speaker 1: stop that too. I mean, I feel like pretty much
Speaker 1: done everything you should do or candy to break a cycle,
Speaker 1: like talking about I dink there, but who knows, um.
Speaker 1: But in terms of the actual other stuff that kind
Speaker 1: of you know, I've talked to doctors and therapists and
Speaker 1: I think I have got a handle on some of
Speaker 1: this sort of as I say, personality disorders that he had,
Speaker 1: but who knows, I don't, I don't know. It's he
Speaker 1: wasn't an evil person. He was just a very damaged
Speaker 1: and m m scan and scared person. And actually you know,
Speaker 1: as much he was this big match a guy, and
Speaker 1: he kind of he was very charismatic and ber sexy
Speaker 1: and all that stuff as well. But he was I
Speaker 1: think he was scared, and I think he was a coward,
Speaker 1: and I think that's I'm not a coward, and I
Speaker 1: feel i'd really I stood up to him, and I,
Speaker 1: you know, did things he would never do in terms
Speaker 1: of facing demons and facing stuff. So I I did,
Speaker 1: like in the it's just talking earlier actually that you know,
Speaker 1: when you read the audiobook of your book, it's kind
Speaker 1: of funny because you sometimes at reading aloud things you've
Speaker 1: only ever written down and acknowledgements bits, I like, you
Speaker 1: don't really you just do that at the end and
Speaker 1: you don't, sort of. And in the acknowledgements to to
Speaker 1: my Last Memoir, Not my Father's Son, I said in
Speaker 1: the acknowledgment that I forgave my father. But I didn't
Speaker 1: ever read that aloud until I was in the studio
Speaker 1: recording the body of it and I just lost it,
Speaker 1: you know, completely was weeping. So I did forgive him
Speaker 1: because I think I don't want to carry around this ship.
Speaker 1: You know, I forgive then from me, you know, I
Speaker 1: forgive you. You did it. It happened like I'm moving on,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna. I feel like not forgiving means you're
Speaker 1: keeping the trauma with you. So I feel it's it's
Speaker 1: mine to give away forgiveness. So I did talk about
Speaker 1: how this this memoir, because it is a really interesting mix.
Speaker 1: You have hilarious anecdotes about everyone from Faye Dunaway, Liza Manelli,
Speaker 1: Gore Vidal, and yet it also interweaves sort of more
Speaker 1: serious topics. How did you How did you approach this
Speaker 1: memoir when you thought, I'm going to write a second
Speaker 1: memoir and this, this is my goal, this is what
Speaker 1: I want to do. Well, it took me a long
Speaker 1: time because I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. Actually,
Speaker 1: when I started it, I thought it was maybe going
Speaker 1: to be about me coming to America and having this
Speaker 1: new life age thirty. You know, been to America at
Speaker 1: all until I was thirty, and so I had a
Speaker 1: whole other perspective. Um, But I think I sort of
Speaker 1: over the years. It took I. You know, I think
Speaker 1: it takes you a while unless you're writing a story
Speaker 1: and the story has an ending and you know what
Speaker 1: and you plot it out. You know, in a fiction,
Speaker 1: my story is not ended, and so I wanted I
Speaker 1: had to find out where what the plot was, what
Speaker 1: the and I've done it, you know, between two marriages,
Speaker 1: between the end of my first marriage in the beginning
Speaker 1: of my second, and I wanted to sort of say
Speaker 1: I mean, basically, I wanted to say that thing about
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm oh finished and complete and conquered.
Speaker 1: Here's me being a bit of a hot mess a
Speaker 1: lot of the time in my life, having a great time,
Speaker 1: having a laugh, having you know, doing all that, but
Speaker 1: concurrently with all that also suffering and being a bit
Speaker 1: of making some bad decisions. And I think that's what
Speaker 1: I want to I want to kind of normalize being
Speaker 1: a hot mess, you know. I think I think it's
Speaker 1: entirely possible to have a great, successful life and also
Speaker 1: be have moments when you're just hot mess. So that's
Speaker 1: my ambition is to normalize halt massness. We'll be right back.
Speaker 1: I know that you didn't really talk at all about
Speaker 1: your your sexuality, and I know you know, and and
Speaker 1: that was quite intentional. It seems to me even you
Speaker 1: have reached queer icon status. Um you well, you don't
Speaker 1: don't really talk about dealing with I should rephrase that
Speaker 1: you don't talk about dealing with coming out or or
Speaker 1: you know, I know that you you talk about the
Speaker 1: fluidity of partnerships. You talk about flings with men and women,
Speaker 1: and I know that that you feel that that whole
Speaker 1: conversation really needs to be reframed in the culture. I think,
Speaker 1: I really do. I mean I didn't. I left all
Speaker 1: the out and purpose. I even felt in my last memoir,
Speaker 1: you know, they want did me to do a sort
Speaker 1: of it? When did you know? All that sort of stuff?
Speaker 1: And I said, um, and also about you know a
Speaker 1: bit a thing about grabbed my husband and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: And I said, you wouldn't ask me to do this
Speaker 1: if I was straight. You wouldn't say when did I
Speaker 1: know I was straight? You know, nobody asked it's asked that.
Speaker 1: And you don't even ask someone who's writing a memoir
Speaker 1: to talk about about about your partner in the way
Speaker 1: that I'm You're wanting me to do that, And it
Speaker 1: didn't feel organic or authentic to me, so I said no.
Speaker 1: And I feel like with this I talked about, yes,
Speaker 1: I'm with a woman and now I'm with a man,
Speaker 1: but that because that's just how it was. And then
Speaker 1: I was back with the women as well. You know,
Speaker 1: I just talked about my life as it was. I
Speaker 1: don't I just feel I'm so bored. I mean, I
Speaker 1: said this the other day, like straight people don't know
Speaker 1: how lucky they are not to be constantly probed about
Speaker 1: their sexuality and you never, you don't never get asked
Speaker 1: about you know, do you find it a problem being
Speaker 1: straight or do you know do you um uh, when
Speaker 1: did you know you were straight? And you know, has
Speaker 1: your straightness of you know, do you think being straight
Speaker 1: in Hollywood is all that? It would be so funny, Um,
Speaker 1: that would be a good snl skit Wait, yes, And
Speaker 1: I so that to me is really boring. And also
Speaker 1: I think, you know what, I think it's really interesting
Speaker 1: about the time we live in right now, at this
Speaker 1: sort of time of non binary nous and fluidity and
Speaker 1: I and the notion that I think is coming into
Speaker 1: our culture much more that you don't have to be
Speaker 1: one of the other. You can go you can go
Speaker 1: back and forward between gender and sexuality and everything. That's
Speaker 1: kind of something I've always sort of felt. I've always
Speaker 1: felt that I was I would always define myself as bisexual.
Speaker 1: People comming gate. I don't mind queer. I totally I
Speaker 1: like queer. Actually think it's a good thing sort of
Speaker 1: it's an umbrella that's not just about sex, you know,
Speaker 1: it's much more sort of about sensibility as well. But
Speaker 1: also I think I I think that I have this thing.
Speaker 1: I say, it's kind of a joke, but I think
Speaker 1: it's true. Is that, you know, sexuality to me is
Speaker 1: like it's great. It's not black and white as sexuality
Speaker 1: is like like a vacation. You don't always want to
Speaker 1: go to the same place twice. And I think that's
Speaker 1: something that people are more able to understand now. And
Speaker 1: I don't you know what am I supposed to say, like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: at school, I you know, I had sex with this
Speaker 1: boy and then I had sex with this girl. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't That's not what my books about. That's not
Speaker 1: what I want to talk about. Uh. I don't feel
Speaker 1: that that's what that's what you know. I feel I
Speaker 1: have talked so much about my sexuality and being so
Speaker 1: open about it. That's my what I have to say,
Speaker 1: That's what I have to I I am open and
Speaker 1: I have no shame about sexuality. I think that's the
Speaker 1: biggest thing I can give to society. I just I'm
Speaker 1: not interested in you know, when did you know and
Speaker 1: what affects is that as all that stuff. I do
Speaker 1: think it's so interesting Alan, how how you can look
Speaker 1: back on the last forty years. You know, when I
Speaker 1: wrote my book, I was talking about sort of some
Speaker 1: of the cluelessness I had early on in my career.
Speaker 1: I remember interviewing Matthew Shepherd's parents, Judy and Dennis, who
Speaker 1: I became very friendly with, and they're so nice and
Speaker 1: I know they've honored you and at their foundation, and
Speaker 1: you know, I remember I write in my book about
Speaker 1: asking the Shepherds if they were disappointed when Matthew told
Speaker 1: them they were gay, he was gay, and were they
Speaker 1: disappointed that they weren't, you know, possibly going to have
Speaker 1: any grandchildren or I think Dennis volunteered that it sounds
Speaker 1: so dated now and so just like what that's the
Speaker 1: thing that we've grown, We have changed, Our culture has
Speaker 1: changed about sort of. I mean, it's actually although it's
Speaker 1: su precatious and I feel so scared about America actually
Speaker 1: about how there was so much awful stuff bubbling under
Speaker 1: the surface, you know that we saw during the time
Speaker 1: of Trump and could easily come back again and could
Speaker 1: be more. You know, I don't take my rights and
Speaker 1: my life in this country. For granted, I think I
Speaker 1: could easily be persecuted if things went slightly the other way.
Speaker 1: But I think was so much actually has changed, and
Speaker 1: since you know, and and and then of course Matthew
Speaker 1: Shepard was a huge turning point, I think. And that
Speaker 1: was actually right when I first came to New York.
Speaker 1: That's when I was doing cabaret, remember it. And but
Speaker 1: I think those things, those it's like it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: stuff pre me too. Stuff. It sounds now so like
Speaker 1: how insane could we have put up with all that?
Speaker 1: But actually what you're talking about when you said that
Speaker 1: to him, that is very much how people thought in
Speaker 1: those days. It it's it does it is dated, but
Speaker 1: it's it's not it's not offensive. It wasn't offensive. I meant,
Speaker 1: from any peace of offense. It's just really interesting how
Speaker 1: things in certain areas sometimes changed so far. It's emblematic,
Speaker 1: I think when when you look back, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: eight years older than you are, and you know, when
Speaker 1: I was growing up, we sort of vaguely probably knew
Speaker 1: a gym teacher was gay, or somebody was gay. My
Speaker 1: French teacher, Mr. Holt, who I loved, was gay. I suspected,
Speaker 1: but it was just so not spoken about, or maybe
Speaker 1: a wink wink here and there. And then I fast
Speaker 1: forward it to two thousand and fifteen when I interviewed
Speaker 1: jim O Burghafell, who was the plaintiff in the same
Speaker 1: sex marriage case in the Screen Court. And you know,
Speaker 1: that was only six years ago, and that almost feels
Speaker 1: like a lifetime ago. So to me, I think all
Speaker 1: these issues that you talk about are the things that
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about. And the the really seismic
Speaker 1: shift we've seen in the culture. You know, yes it's precarious,
Speaker 1: I agree, but thank god, thank god that's that that
Speaker 1: that we're having these these reckonings, and thank God that
Speaker 1: we have got a generation of young people who are
Speaker 1: coming up who don't I think in the same way
Speaker 1: that we who weren't brought up in the same way
Speaker 1: that we are, who have grown up with the possibility
Speaker 1: of otherness all around them, an example, because of the Internet,
Speaker 1: like they see so many different things. They have people
Speaker 1: in their classes who are transitioning, or have two dads
Speaker 1: or too much. You know, it's just we live in
Speaker 1: a world that has changed so much, and for young people,
Speaker 1: they've always grown up with the Internet, and I think
Speaker 1: that's completely changed people. If you've never not known the internet,
Speaker 1: not known that you have access to anything in the world,
Speaker 1: a couple of cliques, that is that completely changes, must
Speaker 1: change hugely how you see the world. I mean also,
Speaker 1: I think it's certainly gives you different concentration skills, but
Speaker 1: it also it puts you in a way that into
Speaker 1: a thing of you've had so many options, you've had
Speaker 1: so much Obviously there's room for misinformation here, but I
Speaker 1: just I am so kind of heartened by by the
Speaker 1: young right now. I agree, and I agree with you.
Speaker 1: It's a double edged sword because for every thing it's
Speaker 1: exposed and normalized, it's also created a platform for the
Speaker 1: kinds of things we don't want. But you know, I
Speaker 1: was thinking as we talked about the arc of history,
Speaker 1: Cabaret was a huge moment, not only for you personally.
Speaker 1: You know, you won the whole Broadway production when a
Speaker 1: slew of awards people were obsessed with the show and
Speaker 1: with you, and you have an interesting analysis about why
Speaker 1: and why that show was so embraced, which I think
Speaker 1: is a little bit about what we're talking about. Yes
Speaker 1: it is, Yes, it is it's because you know, in
Speaker 1: writing this book, I that time for me was so incredible.
Speaker 1: Coming to New York, my first job in New York,
Speaker 1: I'm starting at Blood of the School. It comes to sensation.
Speaker 1: I went all these awards, I'm just fetted everywhere. It
Speaker 1: was overwhelmed by this wave of love. The city kind
Speaker 1: of opens its arms to me. I have no kind
Speaker 1: of touched on. I have nothing to compare it to.
Speaker 1: It's it's very difficult, and it was a lot happening,
Speaker 1: and I suddenly I was thirty three, and I was
Speaker 1: suddenly becoming a certain you know, sexually objectified in a
Speaker 1: way that I've never been before. Um my body was
Speaker 1: discussed in a way that was fascinating to me but
Speaker 1: also really weird. I just had no and it was
Speaker 1: out of nowhere. But what I you know, when I
Speaker 1: was writing this book, and also because I'm actually really
Speaker 1: very close friends with Monica Lewinsky, and I because when
Speaker 1: I first came to when I remember being in rehearsals
Speaker 1: for Cobalt in my little flats in the West Village
Speaker 1: and turning on, turning on the TV and all this
Speaker 1: blings about something big happening in Washington and that the
Speaker 1: president was having an affair, and I remember just thinking,
Speaker 1: what's what the hell's wrong with these people? That why
Speaker 1: was this such big news and what's going on? And
Speaker 1: you know, so over that time, when I was doing
Speaker 1: cabaret and becoming this sort of saucy, sexy, sensational thing,
Speaker 1: the kind of real life of America was about looking
Speaker 1: at this um sort of forbidden relationship to an older
Speaker 1: man and younger woman and getting gratuitous details of their
Speaker 1: sex and being putting shame and scorn on it. And
Speaker 1: you know, like we all know that Monica had this
Speaker 1: the first person in the world to be sort of
Speaker 1: shamed by the Internet on a global scale. And I
Speaker 1: just think it's really interesting that in that year she
Speaker 1: had all that a woman, a young woman, was so
Speaker 1: ashamed about her sexuality. And I and me in this
Speaker 1: role being like a know, almost like a sexual deviant
Speaker 1: was what how I was described being absolutely lauded and
Speaker 1: praised and just everyone thought it was just great. And
Speaker 1: I think in a funny sort of way, it's because
Speaker 1: people were we were escapism, and we were it was
Speaker 1: all this shame and stuff heaped onto sexuality and people
Speaker 1: having to tell their kids what a blow job was
Speaker 1: and all this stuff people being furious about that, and
Speaker 1: then actually here in other way, as oh, look, we
Speaker 1: can just we can pretend it's all not happening, and
Speaker 1: look at this young, skinny European boy plastered across buses
Speaker 1: and being all naughty. As I do think there was
Speaker 1: a connection. But that's why, in a way the production
Speaker 1: was so successful at that time. You I'm fascinated by
Speaker 1: your friendship with Monica. You know, I knew her dad, Bernie,
Speaker 1: who's her radiologist. Yeah, because during that whole thing, we
Speaker 1: needed to get to know some of the people who
Speaker 1: were involved in that story. I wasn't I wasn't super
Speaker 1: in mesh did it because this was right around the
Speaker 1: time my husband died and I was sort of kind
Speaker 1: of just holding on for dear life. But but it's
Speaker 1: so interesting to me, so important and still so challenging
Speaker 1: for people to re conceive that that even as a word,
Speaker 1: what Monica Lewinsky was and how she was treated in
Speaker 1: the culture. And I was just reading an article in
Speaker 1: Slate about how Moreen Dowd, who you know and friendly with,
Speaker 1: but how she vile, vile and brutal and having Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we're we're really I think coming to terms or
Speaker 1: you know, many people are coming to terms with how
Speaker 1: she was vilified and portrayed and you know how feminists
Speaker 1: turned their backs on her, and um, and I'm curious.
Speaker 1: I would love to know if you feel like it's
Speaker 1: not betraying any confidence sort of how you got to
Speaker 1: know Monica and what you've what you've learned from her,
Speaker 1: and and what your impressions are, because I know you're
Speaker 1: very good friends, are very good friends. Yeah, I love her.
Speaker 1: We met at a party in two thousands. I had
Speaker 1: written an article for Marie Clair magazine and Glenda Bailey
Speaker 1: was the editor then and she had a party for
Speaker 1: me and and and she invited Monica because Monica had
Speaker 1: done something about Monica in the previous issue or something.
Speaker 1: So that's how we met. And we went to this
Speaker 1: dinner afterwards, and I have I have a picture of
Speaker 1: that night actually, of the of us meeting, you know,
Speaker 1: because there was Papa there. And then we went to
Speaker 1: dinner and it was just incredible. There was people leaning
Speaker 1: over the bunquette trying to touch Monica's hair, and it
Speaker 1: was it was just incredible. And I was just sitting
Speaker 1: getting to know this really lovely girl, incredible, incredible, like weird,
Speaker 1: super weird, super weird stuff going on leaving the restaurant.
Speaker 1: I spoke to her recently about this, and she said,
Speaker 1: I just don't remember that, and because I've blocked out
Speaker 1: so much, you know, and I understand up from being
Speaker 1: you know, having repatro pressed memories with my dad. I
Speaker 1: was leaving the restaurant with her. It was like a
Speaker 1: mob scene, and I was just I immediately felt so
Speaker 1: protective of her, and I, yeah, I really feel it
Speaker 1: came from I. Just as we got we hit it
Speaker 1: off with it, really had nice chats, and then I
Speaker 1: just helped her get home and I just was like, wow,
Speaker 1: she's got And then I read Then I read the book,
Speaker 1: the book that what's his name wrote the man who
Speaker 1: wrote the down a book as well, you know that one. Yes,
Speaker 1: I read that book and I was just, you know,
Speaker 1: I obviously known what what the sort of headlines, weren't
Speaker 1: watching things on television, but hearing it from her point
Speaker 1: of view, I was like, what the hell? And so
Speaker 1: then then we just stayed friends and I went you know,
Speaker 1: it went to various stages of when she the first
Speaker 1: couple of years your friends, she kind of would come
Speaker 1: out to things, and then she kind of hid, hid away.
Speaker 1: Then she went to London and did her course in psychology,
Speaker 1: and then she then she then she kind of hid
Speaker 1: and kept her head down and tried to figure out
Speaker 1: what to do with her life. And she knew that,
Speaker 1: you know, it was she was on that hiding to nothing.
Speaker 1: Whatever she did, it was always going to come back
Speaker 1: to that. And oh she should she know. If she
Speaker 1: tried to do anything with her life, then it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: she was using all that as a stepping stone and
Speaker 1: it was just a mess. And then she I think
Speaker 1: she just waited and got better. And also she was
Speaker 1: going through a lot of stuff herself. She was trying
Speaker 1: to deal with the fact that she had been shamed
Speaker 1: and abused, violated in this incredible unlike anyone else in
Speaker 1: history actually, And so that's why I want to think
Speaker 1: about her. I think she is a remarkable person. To
Speaker 1: have gone through everything she's gone through and to come
Speaker 1: out of it so kind and well balanced. It's a miracle,
Speaker 1: you know, she is. It shows what an incredible person
Speaker 1: and the sort of strength of her character and our
Speaker 1: upbringing and our values because she you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: inconceivable too to think what it just it's in you
Speaker 1: know that some of the things I've experienced with her
Speaker 1: early on, the way people reacted to her, and so
Speaker 1: for that to be your life every single day, and
Speaker 1: then to be so wronged in such a public way,
Speaker 1: and also to see the person who betrayed you denied you.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it was Lindership who ultimately betrayer,
Speaker 1: but for the President to say on television that she
Speaker 1: was lying, to see him kind of be you know,
Speaker 1: for his reputation to be restored, and to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: what a great guy very quickly, really very quickly, to
Speaker 1: if that will happen, I think that must have been
Speaker 1: such a you know, a total mind funck, and that
Speaker 1: that's must be I And also to have been in
Speaker 1: a lot of you have been in love. She's young,
Speaker 1: you're in early twenties. You love and you get you
Speaker 1: get that happens to you. How what does that do
Speaker 1: to how you think about relationships and your possibility of
Speaker 1: that you. I mean, it's just so to have for
Speaker 1: her to have been so eloquent and elegant in the
Speaker 1: way that she's come back and talked about it given
Speaker 1: her blessing to this TV show, talk about to use
Speaker 1: her platform for other people who are Internet shamed and
Speaker 1: and you know, bullied online and everything. It's just I
Speaker 1: just I think she's an incredible person and also you know,
Speaker 1: also hilarious, one of the funniest people you know, and
Speaker 1: just unkind and love and she's you know, my she
Speaker 1: was at my wedday. She knows my mom, you know,
Speaker 1: my family or lover. She my mom had this friend
Speaker 1: called Jack who was a sort of partner and he
Speaker 1: died sadly but he he once said, and Monica loves that.
Speaker 1: As I said, he said, you know, you should tell
Speaker 1: of all the famous people I've met with you Alan,
Speaker 1: not Tina Turner. It's Monica, who is my favorite one
Speaker 1: like that. I love Tina Turner gets Puss to the cab. Well,
Speaker 1: I just you know, I I would you know, you
Speaker 1: cannot only imagine the trauma that she went through. And
Speaker 1: also I think you know this TV shots on right now,
Speaker 1: the impeachment, and it's very interesting because it tells it
Speaker 1: from the point of view of the world. It's mostly
Speaker 1: about you know, obviously because a big, huge character in it.
Speaker 1: But it's mostly about Linda trip Uh and about it.
Speaker 1: I think what's really interesting. You see how all these
Speaker 1: women are manipulated into behaving the way they did and
Speaker 1: tricked and you know, and it's so sad. What nothing
Speaker 1: it's wrong? Is he not able to bring you back?
Speaker 1: It's not happening, Oh Monica, to wait this long and
Speaker 1: it doesn't have the power to bring you back? What's
Speaker 1: the problem? An affair? It's over? I think right now.
Speaker 1: It's a very triggering time for one actually, of course, yes,
Speaker 1: of course, reliving the most traumatic time of her life
Speaker 1: and having the rest of the world see it as
Speaker 1: being worrying. The last time they saw it, they judged
Speaker 1: her in a very different way. It's a it's you know,
Speaker 1: she's I think it's still a tough time right now,
Speaker 1: just because of all that. But I keep saying to her,
Speaker 1: you must understand that it's it's such a positive thing
Speaker 1: for you, the way that we everyone is so sort
Speaker 1: of both ashamed at how they brought into the whole
Speaker 1: thing twenty years ago and also so proud of you
Speaker 1: for coming back and dealing with that, and Ted doing
Speaker 1: it face on and making sure that other people benefit
Speaker 1: from the retelling of what happened to you? She I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's amazing. She's you know, she's in the process
Speaker 1: of reclaiming her narrative, but she's still she's coming out
Speaker 1: the other side. And that's an uncomfortable place. But it
Speaker 1: isn't difficult. It's so difficult. We'll be right back. Do
Speaker 1: you find writing obviously you like to write, Um, it's
Speaker 1: fun for you. Have you always sort of been drawn
Speaker 1: to the written word that way? And or is this
Speaker 1: kind of something that happened later in life? Well, I
Speaker 1: used to write, Um, you know. I started off. I
Speaker 1: did a stand up thing with a friend at college
Speaker 1: and we wrote all our own material and we wrote
Speaker 1: sort of lots of stuff actually were we went from
Speaker 1: being sort of like, you know, drunk students making things
Speaker 1: up at college into sort of national treasures in Scotland
Speaker 1: and we had to own TV show. It's nothing. We
Speaker 1: wrote all that, and then I wrote more. I wrote
Speaker 1: more performative things. I want a sitcom and Britain and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And then and then you know, it's
Speaker 1: so in terms of the right thing I do now,
Speaker 1: which is much more bookie. That's I wrote a novel
Speaker 1: that came out two thousand and two, and I think
Speaker 1: I want to get back to that. Actually, I think
Speaker 1: the next thing I want. I actually really enjoyed finishing
Speaker 1: off this book during the pandemic. I've been working on
Speaker 1: it for a few years, but getting the chance to
Speaker 1: actually really sit down and do it every day and
Speaker 1: think about it and work out what you know, you
Speaker 1: have too many distractions for exactly exactly not fit it
Speaker 1: into fifteen other things in a day. So I I
Speaker 1: really I sort of think now i'd like to go
Speaker 1: try and you know, if I do a book, if
Speaker 1: I read the next book, I think i'd like it
Speaker 1: to be a novel, and I think I'd like to
Speaker 1: try and really take the time off to do it
Speaker 1: and not just try and fit it into between films.
Speaker 1: Although next year is looking a bit busy, which is good. Yes,
Speaker 1: yes it's good, Yes it's good. But it's also I'm
Speaker 1: doing a thing that's completely nuts I'm in which just
Speaker 1: takes me out for like four months. Next year, I'm
Speaker 1: going to do a solo dance piece and and it
Speaker 1: starts off at the end festival and then you know,
Speaker 1: the tour and then comes to the Joyce Theater in
Speaker 1: New York and I'm I mean, I love it because
Speaker 1: it's sort of the fact my my stage, you know,
Speaker 1: cabaret show I'm doing right now. One of them is
Speaker 1: called Alan Coming is not acting as age, and that's
Speaker 1: totally what I'm doing in this thing. But it's and
Speaker 1: it's I love the fact that I'm I'll be fifty
Speaker 1: seven and I'll be I've been doing a dance but
Speaker 1: I'm not a dancer. But I just you know, I'm
Speaker 1: just I'm able to, I'm allowed to. I'm working with
Speaker 1: great people. I'm going to give it my best shot.
Speaker 1: I think that thing of sometimes you know, dating yourself,
Speaker 1: to challenging yourself to do something you might fail at,
Speaker 1: is actually for me a really important part of how
Speaker 1: I live. I every now and every few years I
Speaker 1: see a pat and I do something like that I
Speaker 1: think scares me, like up the wire zoo, like even
Speaker 1: like right, you know, physically I might not be able
Speaker 1: to do this. I'm nearly sixty and that I'm going
Speaker 1: to do a dance piece, a solo dance piece. It's
Speaker 1: not even other people aren't they can sort of people,
Speaker 1: they can do a bit. Whilst I clutch my play,
Speaker 1: We're gonna have video and things anyway that I think
Speaker 1: is really exciting. I'm really excited by that, but it
Speaker 1: takes me away for many months, and I it's sort
Speaker 1: of I'm missing I'm missing the idea of being in
Speaker 1: my place in the Catskills and you know it's going
Speaker 1: downstairs in my pajamas and writing. It would be great?
Speaker 1: Have you ever thought, you know, as I've read more memoirs,
Speaker 1: I've thought about like Billy Crystal's uh one man show
Speaker 1: that he did kind of tracing his his life on
Speaker 1: Sunday is something someday? Yes, Yes, that was great and
Speaker 1: and it seems to me, Alan, your life would really
Speaker 1: lend itself two something like that. Would that ever interest you? Well?
Speaker 1: I mean I start to feel that's what my cabalt
Speaker 1: Is shows are like the one like I did these shows,
Speaker 1: I mean I sing songs, I tell Stuart these, and
Speaker 1: they're going there. They've got a theme. Like the last
Speaker 1: one was called Legal Immigrant. It was about me being,
Speaker 1: you know, becoming a citizen of America. This one's called
Speaker 1: Alan Coming is Not Acting as Age. That's about aging
Speaker 1: and stuff. And the one before that was called Alan
Speaker 1: Coming sings sappy songs And I talked a bit about
Speaker 1: my dad and stuff and that, so I kind of
Speaker 1: think I do that, and I really like that. It
Speaker 1: was I really like that sort of connection you get
Speaker 1: with an audience when it's you, not a character. You know,
Speaker 1: you're it's really you talking and I sing as myself
Speaker 1: and I sing in my own Scottish accent as well,
Speaker 1: and I really enjoyed that. But I I don't know,
Speaker 1: you know, something, after It's Not my Brother's Son came out,
Speaker 1: people said, okay, we're my agents. At the time, We're like, okay,
Speaker 1: what about the film? Right? So I was like, what
Speaker 1: do you mean, because well, we've got I said, what,
Speaker 1: We're not going to sell the film rights of my
Speaker 1: traumatic childhood. I don't think writing the books fight. I think,
Speaker 1: you know, choose your medium. Well. I love talking to
Speaker 1: you and I could just talk to you all day
Speaker 1: because I love your accent and I just love it.
Speaker 1: I love what you're saying. But your new book is
Speaker 1: called Baggage. I think people are going to love it,
Speaker 1: and they already love you. Well most people. You can't
Speaker 1: you listen, Allen, you can't bad a thousand. I mean,
Speaker 1: we live in this crazy world, and I think I
Speaker 1: don't like everybody to expect everyone to like me. I
Speaker 1: expect me though, Yeah, I saw that on Instagram. Why
Speaker 1: should everyone like you when you don't like everyone? Yeah enough,
Speaker 1: you know. But on the other hand, like like, let's
Speaker 1: not shoot on people. You may not like people, but
Speaker 1: you don't have to be so aggressive. It's like, is like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not asking for just whatever, but just
Speaker 1: take your boot off my neck. Yeah. I love that
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. Anyway, thank you a great to see you.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Good luck with yours, but not as much
Speaker 1: luck as mine. Bless you for that magnanimous finish. I
Speaker 1: just love him, don't you. By the way, Alan Cummings memoir.
Speaker 1: His second is called Baggage Tales from a Fully Packed Life.
Speaker 1: Nice title, right, Go check it out everyone. Next Question
Speaker 1: with Katie Kurik is a production of I Heart Media
Speaker 1: and Katie Kurik Media. The executive producers Army Katie Curic
Speaker 1: and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate
Speaker 1: producers Derek Clements, Adrianna Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The show
Speaker 1: is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information
Speaker 1: about today's episode, or to sign up, For my morning newsletter,
Speaker 1: wake Up Call, go to Katie currek dot com. You
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