WEBVTT - Alan Cumming on his new book and ‘normalizing hotmessness’ 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.800 Hi everyone, I'm Katie CURRTT and this is next question. 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:08.600 What's your Alan coming touchdown? Did you first fall for 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:12.360 the wayfish Scot in Romeo Michelle's high school reunion? Since 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:15.480 this is the last night of school and all, would 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:20.119 you care to dance with me once? Now? Or was 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:23.880 it his romantic hijinks and Emma that hooked you? Who 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.200 can think of Miss Smith when Miss Woodhouse is na 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.440 Maybe you're more of a golden eyed bond boy fan. 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:35.080 I am invincible spy kids get the cunning and intelligence 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:39.400 of the world's greatest espionage agents. Oh, rolled into tiny 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:44.400 packages I calls the good wife. Can I say son 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.760 of a bitch? Or is that too salty? Oh? It's 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:56.720 got to be cabaret. There are almost too many to count. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.960 Alan Cumming is a renaissance man of his own making, 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.920 from theater to TV and film. He's a chameleon who 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.640 melts into every role he takes on. But he doesn't 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:14.080 stop there. He owns a club in New York, club 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:17.520 Coming I Went There Once. He also started his own 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:22.360 perfume line, Coming the Fragrance. He's an outspoken advocate for 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:25.959 lgbt Q rights. He's also the author of a book 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:31.520 of fiction, one memoir, and now a second memoir called Baggage. 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.240 I just constantly talk about myself from a moment I 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:36.480 wake up to moment to go to bed. Alan and 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:38.920 I spoke right before his book came out, And no 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.200 offense to everyone else I've interviewed. But he's just about 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.880 the most charming human on the planet who really knows 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.640 how to tell a good story. I did have another 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:52.800 tattoo that was on my body, but I removed by 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.440 Lazer that has had a young gentleman's name on it. Yeah, 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.480 but I've done that, Katy never done that. Never got 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:01.360 met someone a two weeks later, had their name tattooed 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.520 on your body. Wanted to know were you? Were you 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:09.160 intoxicated at the time in a way because I when 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:11.320 I write about this in the book, I could. I 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:16.840 called him Adonis and I was. I think it's just 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:19.520 this man I had a short lived relationship with. I 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:21.680 feel like I was the victim of a chemical attack, 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:24.240 you know, like that sort of chemistry that you have 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:25.840 with someone in the sort of you know that the 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.760 in doorphins or whatever is released and you'r you find 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:33.519 yourself doing things you're completely out of control with desire 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.480 or lust or whatever it is. And after two weeks 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.639 of knowing each other, we decided we'd get our names 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.600 tattooed on each other's groins. And I thought that was 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:46.440 the most sensible thing I've ever done. I really did. 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.520 I thought it was completely sensible. And then four months 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:51.120 after that we split up. When I was left with 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.320 the with the with the name Raven on my on 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.840 my groin, and I got what's hilarious is that I got? 0:02:58.080 --> 0:02:59.880 I got it. I went. I was in l am 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.080 in a film and there was a there was a 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:07.079 special you know, tattoo removable place at Cedar Sinai Hospital. 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:09.560 So I went, and I have to go several times. 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.600 It's really so they laser it off and you can 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:17.560 hear this and it's the it's the sound of the 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:21.440 ink exploding in your body. Is it more painful getting 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:24.560 it removed than to actually get a tattoo? Yeah, because 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:26.280 then also you keep You've got to keep going back, 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:29.040 you know, it's not just once. You do it several 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.359 times and it is more painful. And then also because 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.480 it goes all scabby and yucky and that as well. 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:36.440 And so, but the thing was when I went. When 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:40.040 I eventually saw him afterwards, so you got a year afterwards. 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:41.840 He said you still love your tattoo and said no, 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.960 i'd mind wrenched from my body by laser. And he said, 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.400 I said, you used to love yours? He said kind of, 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:50.240 and he he pulled down his pants and where it 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:58.720 used to see Alan, it now says balance. That's very clever. Yeah, 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:01.640 it's that good. I was going to say, what could 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:06.360 you have done with his name? Ravenous? Craven? I've taken 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.400 a wee bit of the end often been raver. It 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:10.840 was all my friends are delighted and telling me the 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.120 things that I could do, and you know it was yes, 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:18.720 done done. Oh my friend David wanted to done Raven. 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.040 That's what he was like, do you end at the 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:24.000 beginning of I was like, all right, I feel polish enough, 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.360 you don't need to do. But instead you got it removed. Well, 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.200 let's let's talk about your memoir because it's so exciting, 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.240 and I know you're tired of talking about it, but 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.680 I don't know. Let's give it. Let's give a dry 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.520 So it's called baggage. And I feel like, Alan, you've 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.480 spent a lot of time in your adult life unloading 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:46.440 yours because this is your second memoir, of course, and 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:51.200 and the first was really powerful about your dysfunctional relationship 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:56.000 with your father, who was who was terrible, and I 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.760 thought it was incredible that it had such an impact, 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:04.359 and you from so many people who were able to 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:09.080 to deal with or or metabolize their own dysfunctional relationships 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.840 with with a parent. So so that was really the 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:17.200 focal point of your first memoir. And you wanted to 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:24.640 do another one because well, mostly because a couple of reasons, 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.359 of course, but mostly because I as a reaction to 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.159 the reaction to my first one, because I think the 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.280 first one it was, you know, I had this very 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:40.400 violent and abusive father, and I felt the way that 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.719 it was. I mean, look, I was so excited ultimately 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:45.520 by the way that it helped so many people and 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:47.240 people keep writing me and I'd be able to talk 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:49.760 to my abuse or I've talked all that stuff you 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.080 just mentioned. But also there was a retric which sort 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:55.800 of said Alan has triumphed, Alan has overcome Alan has 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.960 you know, Alan has conquered this terrible, dark past. And 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:01.360 I feel like that's a very American things sort of 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:03.320 try and tie up things and make it all like 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.479 it's done, that we've done this, instead of just thinking 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.800 I have you know, I am happy and I have 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.960 a life that I but I've not overcoming. It's still 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:14.279 a part of me. It's always going to be a 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:15.760 part of me. And they but all like that. Oh, 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.200 we all have baggage or trauma shipped in our lives 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:20.560 and we don't the moment you ignore it and say, 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:22.720 oh I don't and deny it, then it's just going 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:24.680 to fester and come back to bite you in the bomb. 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:26.840 And actually it's you just have to be open about 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:30.040 and honest and you know, like then in the pandemic. 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.599 I think it's been really interesting how we've all understood 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.640 the value of discussing our mental health and checking in 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:38.920 on each other's mental health. It's it's something we don't 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.520 haven't done as a culture before. And so actually, I 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.800 think that's all that I'm asking people to do, is 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:48.000 to not think of me as someone who has absolutely 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.440 triumphed over something and killed it. I'm actually living with 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:53.040 something and I've managed it. I've managed to make my life, 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:57.600 and I think I just want to normalize the trauma 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.400 and that damage that we've all got we all and 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.600 not to Let's just not pretend that we can get 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:06.320 over something and just you just get better at dealing 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.559 with it. How do you think, I mean, obviously there's 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.240 a multitude of ways, but when you think about how 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:18.720 your abusive father, how how that relationship continues to manifest itself, 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:23.520 and the demons that you have to continue to fight, well, 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:31.360 I I get very triggered by angry men. I I 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.480 used to try and fix people who are angry. I 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.720 used to have a obsession with trying to fix I've 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.040 had several relationships. What I was just basically trying to 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:40.520 fix angry people. I thought it was my fault. I 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:41.960 thought there must be something I've done. I thought there 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:43.920 was something I could do to stop them being angry. 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:47.440 I was seeking the familiar, and I think that that 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:49.920 I've got I've got over that, thank goodness. But I 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:55.040 do get very triggered by by angry angry men, and 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.240 I just you know, it's something I just got to 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.760 be vigilant about. Some people. People have a right to 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.960 be angry and bit out of control. The rational anger 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:10.280 I find difficult, and people I find it when people 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:16.480 are sort of trying to bring me down. I feel 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:19.200 quite confident about myself, but but I'm aware that people 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:22.440 are sometimes, you know, I'm sure you know, there's if 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:26.000 when you're well known and sort of seen as being accomplished, 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:30.480 sometimes you go into scenarios and environments where people want 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.160 to bring you down a peg or two and it's 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.160 sort of just their way of making themselves feel better 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:39.960 about themselves. And I find that that's very triggering for 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.520 me because I want to allow them to do that 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.760 and I but also I know it's not fair and 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:51.000 I want to so I have to. I really try 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:56.160 hard to let people do their ship, but not me, 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:58.560 not be affected by it, not to make me sort 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.000 of bring them down with me. So that are things 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.400 like that. And then also, you know, another thing that 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:07.560 I feel um talk about it, but it is the 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:12.560 fact that I've never had children. I feel that I 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:13.880 I did have a spell when I you know, I 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:15.959 started the book by talking about trying to have a 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:18.440 child with my ex wife and now, in a way, 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:22.520 how grateful I am that that wasn't possible or didn't 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.480 happen because we split up and everything and that and 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:29.120 me me, me thinking about being a father is what 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.319 precipitated me remembering a whole lot of stuff from my 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.160 childhood that I had repressed and then having an ever 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:40.480 speake down. And so now I did try. I did 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:41.960 think about any kids with a couple of people at 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:44.720 other partners, and you know, and some people you know 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:47.320 wanted my sperm and all that stuff. I was going 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:48.760 to do that with the next and all that stuff. 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.600 But now I'm fifty six, I'm not going to have kids, 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.680 and I I don't I don't want to. But in 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:57.280 the writing of this book and thinking about it and 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:02.560 talking about myself endlessly, I sort of think, well, I 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:04.720 write this thing, I say, you know, I have lots 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.240 of young friends, people who are could be my children. 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.680 And I have friends holleges. But I actually love having 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:13.400 young friends. I think it's really great to sort of find, 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:15.000 you know, to keep in touch with what's happening and 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:18.040 my assistants twenty six. I think it's great to sort 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:19.840 of think, what's your life like now? And you know, 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.720 and and and it is like having you know, obviously 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:24.520 it's a big grown up but I am old enough 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:27.280 to be dad and stuff like that. And I but 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:31.000 and so in a way I have become the father 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:34.760 I wish i'd had, But it's no accident that he 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:43.000 is childless. Are you Are you sorry Alan that? Yeah? 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.240 I don't. I mean, I'm not sorry. I really love 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:46.880 my life. I don't want, oh God, the idea of 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.240 having a kid now, ben no, but that you didn't 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:54.080 ever I think I'm I wonder if part of the 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:56.440 reason are not part of I wonder if the reason 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.560 i'm I wonder if the reason I didn't was that 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.000 I was it I would become my father. And so 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:06.280 you know, that's how far has reached, still still comes 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.560 and I I don't like that. I don't like the 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:14.120 fact that I have avoided something in my life that 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:18.480 I didn't avoid. I tried, it just didn't happen. Um, 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:24.320 But I ultimately stayed away from it because I I 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.040 have It's triggering for me and it's weird. And you know, 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.000 if if when I was trying to eight and I 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:34.000 was trying to get pregnant with my wife, that's what 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:38.400 passivity is of me having a huge my mind completely 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.959 brought all these images back. And you know it did 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:46.040 that for a reason. It did that too, because I 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:47.599 had never been able to deal with them before. I 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:49.920 had not. I wasn't I was too little and too 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.600 young to process what was happening to me. So it 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:56.240 waited until I was going to go into that same 0:11:56.280 --> 0:12:01.640 sort of arena again. Father. Uh, the patriarchy, I suppose, 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.000 And I feel that in my mind this is powerful 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:09.560 to do that and then too, you know, make me 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:11.200 have all those images and all those feelings and then 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:13.960 to kind of break down. Then I think it is 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:16.560 as equally as powerful to perhaps make persuade me not 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:21.800 to do something, just in case I wasn't frety. You know. 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:27.000 It's just it's that transparence of the intergenerational transparence of 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:31.040 trauma is a is a thing, you know, it's a 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.640 powerful thing. You can your DNA can be changed. It's 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.840 been tested. Your DNA can be changed by the trauma 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:40.280 that your parents have endured. Do you feel like, and 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.120 then I want to talk about this new memoir, but 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:45.679 do you feel, having written about your dad in the 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:50.280 first one, that you understand it. Maybe you don't forgive him, 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:54.640 but that you understand what were the forces that shaped 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:58.679 him to be the monster he sounds like he was. 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.400 I mean, I sort of I think, actually I do 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.880 forgive him, and I'm not sure. I do understand it 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:07.840 all the sports, I mean there's some I'm not I'm 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:10.240 not sure, and I'll never be sure and never be 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:14.199 able to be sure. I think he had many personality disorders, 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.200 and I think he was mentally ill. Absolutely. I think 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.840 he was abused by his father, yes, and he didn't 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.400 break that psycle of course. That's also what terrifies me, 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.080 or terrified me that I would not be able to 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.000 stop that too. I mean, I feel like pretty much 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.920 done everything you should do or candy to break a cycle, 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:35.680 like talking about I dink there, but who knows, um. 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:40.920 But in terms of the actual other stuff that kind 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.200 of you know, I've talked to doctors and therapists and 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:48.240 I think I have got a handle on some of 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.280 this sort of as I say, personality disorders that he had, 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.600 but who knows, I don't, I don't know. It's he 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:57.240 wasn't an evil person. He was just a very damaged 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:03.320 and m m scan and scared person. And actually you know, 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:05.160 as much he was this big match a guy, and 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:08.520 he kind of he was very charismatic and ber sexy 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:10.840 and all that stuff as well. But he was I 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:12.720 think he was scared, and I think he was a coward, 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.960 and I think that's I'm not a coward, and I 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.840 feel i'd really I stood up to him, and I, 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.520 you know, did things he would never do in terms 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:29.000 of facing demons and facing stuff. So I I did, 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.440 like in the it's just talking earlier actually that you know, 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.320 when you read the audiobook of your book, it's kind 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:36.960 of funny because you sometimes at reading aloud things you've 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:40.880 only ever written down and acknowledgements bits, I like, you 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:42.760 don't really you just do that at the end and 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.200 you don't, sort of. And in the acknowledgements to to 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:47.400 my Last Memoir, Not my Father's Son, I said in 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.240 the acknowledgment that I forgave my father. But I didn't 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:52.600 ever read that aloud until I was in the studio 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:54.920 recording the body of it and I just lost it, 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.520 you know, completely was weeping. So I did forgive him 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.600 because I think I don't want to carry around this ship. 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.240 You know, I forgive then from me, you know, I 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:08.160 forgive you. You did it. It happened like I'm moving on, 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.160 I'm not gonna. I feel like not forgiving means you're 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:15.040 keeping the trauma with you. So I feel it's it's 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:19.960 mine to give away forgiveness. So I did talk about 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:23.800 how this this memoir, because it is a really interesting mix. 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:29.640 You have hilarious anecdotes about everyone from Faye Dunaway, Liza Manelli, 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.880 Gore Vidal, and yet it also interweaves sort of more 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.760 serious topics. How did you How did you approach this 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.080 memoir when you thought, I'm going to write a second 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.200 memoir and this, this is my goal, this is what 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:45.400 I want to do. Well, it took me a long 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.040 time because I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. Actually, 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.280 when I started it, I thought it was maybe going 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.120 to be about me coming to America and having this 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:54.800 new life age thirty. You know, been to America at 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.440 all until I was thirty, and so I had a 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:01.440 whole other perspective. Um, But I think I sort of 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.880 over the years. It took I. You know, I think 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.240 it takes you a while unless you're writing a story 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:10.200 and the story has an ending and you know what 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:11.840 and you plot it out. You know, in a fiction, 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:14.960 my story is not ended, and so I wanted I 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:17.400 had to find out where what the plot was, what 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:19.360 the and I've done it, you know, between two marriages, 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:21.160 between the end of my first marriage in the beginning 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.280 of my second, and I wanted to sort of say 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.200 I mean, basically, I wanted to say that thing about 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.800 I don't think I'm oh finished and complete and conquered. 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.920 Here's me being a bit of a hot mess a 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.600 lot of the time in my life, having a great time, 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:37.680 having a laugh, having you know, doing all that, but 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:41.720 concurrently with all that also suffering and being a bit 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.800 of making some bad decisions. And I think that's what 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:48.680 I want to I want to kind of normalize being 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:52.520 a hot mess, you know. I think I think it's 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.920 entirely possible to have a great, successful life and also 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.360 be have moments when you're just hot mess. So that's 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:04.560 my ambition is to normalize halt massness. We'll be right back. 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.600 I know that you didn't really talk at all about 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:23.959 your your sexuality, and I know you know, and and 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.959 that was quite intentional. It seems to me even you 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:30.800 have reached queer icon status. Um you well, you don't 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:34.639 don't really talk about dealing with I should rephrase that 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.679 you don't talk about dealing with coming out or or 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.000 you know, I know that you you talk about the 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:45.040 fluidity of partnerships. You talk about flings with men and women, 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.720 and I know that that you feel that that whole 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:52.960 conversation really needs to be reframed in the culture. I think, 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:54.760 I really do. I mean I didn't. I left all 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:58.119 the out and purpose. I even felt in my last memoir, 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.160 you know, they want did me to do a sort 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:03.960 of it? When did you know? All that sort of stuff? 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:07.280 And I said, um, and also about you know a 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:11.240 bit a thing about grabbed my husband and stuff like that, 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:12.560 And I said, you wouldn't ask me to do this 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:14.119 if I was straight. You wouldn't say when did I 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:16.760 know I was straight? You know, nobody asked it's asked that. 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:19.960 And you don't even ask someone who's writing a memoir 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:24.200 to talk about about about your partner in the way 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:27.240 that I'm You're wanting me to do that, And it 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:32.600 didn't feel organic or authentic to me, so I said no. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:36.440 And I feel like with this I talked about, yes, 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.360 I'm with a woman and now I'm with a man, 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.080 but that because that's just how it was. And then 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:43.639 I was back with the women as well. You know, 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:45.639 I just talked about my life as it was. I 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:49.359 don't I just feel I'm so bored. I mean, I 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:51.879 said this the other day, like straight people don't know 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:54.280 how lucky they are not to be constantly probed about 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:58.720 their sexuality and you never, you don't never get asked 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:01.320 about you know, do you find it a problem being 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:05.840 straight or do you know do you um uh, when 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:07.680 did you know you were straight? And you know, has 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.119 your straightness of you know, do you think being straight 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:14.040 in Hollywood is all that? It would be so funny, Um, 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:19.000 that would be a good snl skit Wait, yes, And 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:23.679 I so that to me is really boring. And also 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:25.600 I think, you know what, I think it's really interesting 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:27.040 about the time we live in right now, at this 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:30.399 sort of time of non binary nous and fluidity and 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:33.440 I and the notion that I think is coming into 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.720 our culture much more that you don't have to be 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:37.240 one of the other. You can go you can go 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:42.120 back and forward between gender and sexuality and everything. That's 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.880 kind of something I've always sort of felt. I've always 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.120 felt that I was I would always define myself as bisexual. 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:50.879 People comming gate. I don't mind queer. I totally I 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:52.720 like queer. Actually think it's a good thing sort of 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:55.760 it's an umbrella that's not just about sex, you know, 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.639 it's much more sort of about sensibility as well. But 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:04.000 also I think I I think that I have this thing. 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:05.399 I say, it's kind of a joke, but I think 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:07.240 it's true. Is that, you know, sexuality to me is 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.520 like it's great. It's not black and white as sexuality 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.199 is like like a vacation. You don't always want to 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.560 go to the same place twice. And I think that's 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.800 something that people are more able to understand now. And 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:23.240 I don't you know what am I supposed to say, like, oh, well, 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:25.879 at school, I you know, I had sex with this 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:28.400 boy and then I had sex with this girl. I mean, 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:30.680 I don't That's not what my books about. That's not 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:34.000 what I want to talk about. Uh. I don't feel 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:38.000 that that's what that's what you know. I feel I 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:40.960 have talked so much about my sexuality and being so 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:44.120 open about it. That's my what I have to say, 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:46.359 That's what I have to I I am open and 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:50.240 I have no shame about sexuality. I think that's the 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:53.120 biggest thing I can give to society. I just I'm 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:57.040 not interested in you know, when did you know and 0:20:57.560 --> 0:20:59.800 what affects is that as all that stuff. I do 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.320 think it's so interesting Alan, how how you can look 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:05.280 back on the last forty years. You know, when I 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:09.199 wrote my book, I was talking about sort of some 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:12.760 of the cluelessness I had early on in my career. 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:16.760 I remember interviewing Matthew Shepherd's parents, Judy and Dennis, who 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:21.560 I became very friendly with, and they're so nice and 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:25.440 I know they've honored you and at their foundation, and 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.280 you know, I remember I write in my book about 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:32.800 asking the Shepherds if they were disappointed when Matthew told 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:36.360 them they were gay, he was gay, and were they 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:40.439 disappointed that they weren't, you know, possibly going to have 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:44.439 any grandchildren or I think Dennis volunteered that it sounds 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:51.639 so dated now and so just like what that's the 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:53.800 thing that we've grown, We have changed, Our culture has 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:57.600 changed about sort of. I mean, it's actually although it's 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:01.639 su precatious and I feel so scared about America actually 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:04.200 about how there was so much awful stuff bubbling under 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:06.200 the surface, you know that we saw during the time 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:08.840 of Trump and could easily come back again and could 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:12.960