1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie CURRTT and this is next question. 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: What's your Alan coming touchdown? Did you first fall for 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: the wayfish Scot in Romeo Michelle's high school reunion? Since 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: this is the last night of school and all, would 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: you care to dance with me once? Now? Or was 6 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: it his romantic hijinks and Emma that hooked you? Who 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: can think of Miss Smith when Miss Woodhouse is na 8 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: Maybe you're more of a golden eyed bond boy fan. 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: I am invincible spy kids get the cunning and intelligence 10 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: of the world's greatest espionage agents. Oh, rolled into tiny 11 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: packages I calls the good wife. Can I say son 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: of a bitch? Or is that too salty? Oh? It's 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: got to be cabaret. There are almost too many to count. 14 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: Alan Cumming is a renaissance man of his own making, 15 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: from theater to TV and film. He's a chameleon who 16 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: melts into every role he takes on. But he doesn't 17 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: stop there. He owns a club in New York, club 18 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: Coming I Went There Once. He also started his own 19 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: perfume line, Coming the Fragrance. He's an outspoken advocate for 20 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: lgbt Q rights. He's also the author of a book 21 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: of fiction, one memoir, and now a second memoir called Baggage. 22 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: I just constantly talk about myself from a moment I 23 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: wake up to moment to go to bed. Alan and 24 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: I spoke right before his book came out, And no 25 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: offense to everyone else I've interviewed. But he's just about 26 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: the most charming human on the planet who really knows 27 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: how to tell a good story. I did have another 28 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: tattoo that was on my body, but I removed by 29 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: Lazer that has had a young gentleman's name on it. Yeah, 30 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: but I've done that, Katy never done that. Never got 31 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: met someone a two weeks later, had their name tattooed 32 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: on your body. Wanted to know were you? Were you 33 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: intoxicated at the time in a way because I when 34 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: I write about this in the book, I could. I 35 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: called him Adonis and I was. I think it's just 36 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: this man I had a short lived relationship with. I 37 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: feel like I was the victim of a chemical attack, 38 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, like that sort of chemistry that you have 39 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: with someone in the sort of you know that the 40 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: in doorphins or whatever is released and you'r you find 41 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 1: yourself doing things you're completely out of control with desire 42 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: or lust or whatever it is. And after two weeks 43 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: of knowing each other, we decided we'd get our names 44 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: tattooed on each other's groins. And I thought that was 45 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: the most sensible thing I've ever done. I really did. 46 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: I thought it was completely sensible. And then four months 47 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: after that we split up. When I was left with 48 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: the with the with the name Raven on my on 49 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: my groin, and I got what's hilarious is that I got? 50 00:02:58,080 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: I got it. I went. I was in l am 51 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: in a film and there was a there was a 52 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: special you know, tattoo removable place at Cedar Sinai Hospital. 53 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: So I went, and I have to go several times. 54 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: It's really so they laser it off and you can 55 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: hear this and it's the it's the sound of the 56 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: ink exploding in your body. Is it more painful getting 57 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: it removed than to actually get a tattoo? Yeah, because 58 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: then also you keep You've got to keep going back, 59 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's not just once. You do it several 60 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: times and it is more painful. And then also because 61 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: it goes all scabby and yucky and that as well. 62 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: And so, but the thing was when I went. When 63 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: I eventually saw him afterwards, so you got a year afterwards. 64 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: He said you still love your tattoo and said no, 65 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: i'd mind wrenched from my body by laser. And he said, 66 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: I said, you used to love yours? He said kind of, 67 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: and he he pulled down his pants and where it 68 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: used to see Alan, it now says balance. That's very clever. Yeah, 69 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: it's that good. I was going to say, what could 70 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: you have done with his name? Ravenous? Craven? I've taken 71 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: a wee bit of the end often been raver. It 72 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: was all my friends are delighted and telling me the 73 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: things that I could do, and you know it was yes, 74 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: done done. Oh my friend David wanted to done Raven. 75 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: That's what he was like, do you end at the 76 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: beginning of I was like, all right, I feel polish enough, 77 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: you don't need to do. But instead you got it removed. Well, 78 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: let's let's talk about your memoir because it's so exciting, 79 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: and I know you're tired of talking about it, but 80 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: I don't know. Let's give it. Let's give a dry 81 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: So it's called baggage. And I feel like, Alan, you've 82 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in your adult life unloading 83 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: yours because this is your second memoir, of course, and 84 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: and the first was really powerful about your dysfunctional relationship 85 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: with your father, who was who was terrible, and I 86 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: thought it was incredible that it had such an impact, 87 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 1: and you from so many people who were able to 88 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: to deal with or or metabolize their own dysfunctional relationships 89 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: with with a parent. So so that was really the 90 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: focal point of your first memoir. And you wanted to 91 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: do another one because well, mostly because a couple of reasons, 92 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 1: of course, but mostly because I as a reaction to 93 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 1: the reaction to my first one, because I think the 94 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: first one it was, you know, I had this very 95 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: violent and abusive father, and I felt the way that 96 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: it was. I mean, look, I was so excited ultimately 97 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: by the way that it helped so many people and 98 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: people keep writing me and I'd be able to talk 99 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: to my abuse or I've talked all that stuff you 100 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: just mentioned. But also there was a retric which sort 101 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: of said Alan has triumphed, Alan has overcome Alan has 102 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: you know, Alan has conquered this terrible, dark past. And 103 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: I feel like that's a very American things sort of 104 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: try and tie up things and make it all like 105 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: it's done, that we've done this, instead of just thinking 106 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: I have you know, I am happy and I have 107 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: a life that I but I've not overcoming. It's still 108 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: a part of me. It's always going to be a 109 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: part of me. And they but all like that. Oh, 110 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: we all have baggage or trauma shipped in our lives 111 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: and we don't the moment you ignore it and say, 112 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: oh I don't and deny it, then it's just going 113 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: to fester and come back to bite you in the bomb. 114 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: And actually it's you just have to be open about 115 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: and honest and you know, like then in the pandemic. 116 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: I think it's been really interesting how we've all understood 117 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: the value of discussing our mental health and checking in 118 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: on each other's mental health. It's it's something we don't 119 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: haven't done as a culture before. And so actually, I 120 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: think that's all that I'm asking people to do, is 121 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: to not think of me as someone who has absolutely 122 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: triumphed over something and killed it. I'm actually living with 123 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: something and I've managed it. I've managed to make my life, 124 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 1: and I think I just want to normalize the trauma 125 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: and that damage that we've all got we all and 126 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: not to Let's just not pretend that we can get 127 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: over something and just you just get better at dealing 128 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,559 Speaker 1: with it. How do you think, I mean, obviously there's 129 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: a multitude of ways, but when you think about how 130 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: your abusive father, how how that relationship continues to manifest itself, 131 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: and the demons that you have to continue to fight, well, 132 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: I I get very triggered by angry men. I I 133 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: used to try and fix people who are angry. I 134 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: used to have a obsession with trying to fix I've 135 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: had several relationships. What I was just basically trying to 136 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: fix angry people. I thought it was my fault. I 137 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: thought there must be something I've done. I thought there 138 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: was something I could do to stop them being angry. 139 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: I was seeking the familiar, and I think that that 140 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: I've got I've got over that, thank goodness. But I 141 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: do get very triggered by by angry angry men, and 142 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: I just you know, it's something I just got to 143 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: be vigilant about. Some people. People have a right to 144 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: be angry and bit out of control. The rational anger 145 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: I find difficult, and people I find it when people 146 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: are sort of trying to bring me down. I feel 147 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: quite confident about myself, but but I'm aware that people 148 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: are sometimes, you know, I'm sure you know, there's if 149 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: when you're well known and sort of seen as being accomplished, 150 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: sometimes you go into scenarios and environments where people want 151 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: to bring you down a peg or two and it's 152 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: sort of just their way of making themselves feel better 153 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: about themselves. And I find that that's very triggering for 154 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: me because I want to allow them to do that 155 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: and I but also I know it's not fair and 156 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: I want to so I have to. I really try 157 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: hard to let people do their ship, but not me, 158 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: not be affected by it, not to make me sort 159 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: of bring them down with me. So that are things 160 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: like that. And then also, you know, another thing that 161 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: I feel um talk about it, but it is the 162 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: fact that I've never had children. I feel that I 163 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: I did have a spell when I you know, I 164 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 1: started the book by talking about trying to have a 165 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: child with my ex wife and now, in a way, 166 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: how grateful I am that that wasn't possible or didn't 167 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: happen because we split up and everything and that and 168 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: me me, me thinking about being a father is what 169 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 1: precipitated me remembering a whole lot of stuff from my 170 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: childhood that I had repressed and then having an ever 171 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: speake down. And so now I did try. I did 172 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: think about any kids with a couple of people at 173 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: other partners, and you know, and some people you know 174 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: wanted my sperm and all that stuff. I was going 175 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: to do that with the next and all that stuff. 176 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: But now I'm fifty six, I'm not going to have kids, 177 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: and I I don't I don't want to. But in 178 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: the writing of this book and thinking about it and 179 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: talking about myself endlessly, I sort of think, well, I 180 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: write this thing, I say, you know, I have lots 181 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: of young friends, people who are could be my children. 182 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: And I have friends holleges. But I actually love having 183 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: young friends. I think it's really great to sort of find, 184 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: you know, to keep in touch with what's happening and 185 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: my assistants twenty six. I think it's great to sort 186 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: of think, what's your life like now? And you know, 187 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: and and and it is like having you know, obviously 188 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: it's a big grown up but I am old enough 189 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: to be dad and stuff like that. And I but 190 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: and so in a way I have become the father 191 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: I wish i'd had, But it's no accident that he 192 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: is childless. Are you Are you sorry Alan that? Yeah? 193 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, I'm not sorry. I really love 194 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: my life. I don't want, oh God, the idea of 195 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: having a kid now, ben no, but that you didn't 196 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: ever I think I'm I wonder if part of the 197 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: reason are not part of I wonder if the reason 198 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: i'm I wonder if the reason I didn't was that 199 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: I was it I would become my father. And so 200 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, that's how far has reached, still still comes 201 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: and I I don't like that. I don't like the 202 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: fact that I have avoided something in my life that 203 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: I didn't avoid. I tried, it just didn't happen. Um, 204 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: But I ultimately stayed away from it because I I 205 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: have It's triggering for me and it's weird. And you know, 206 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: if if when I was trying to eight and I 207 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: was trying to get pregnant with my wife, that's what 208 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: passivity is of me having a huge my mind completely 209 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 1: brought all these images back. And you know it did 210 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: that for a reason. It did that too, because I 211 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:47,599 Speaker 1: had never been able to deal with them before. I 212 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: had not. I wasn't I was too little and too 213 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: young to process what was happening to me. So it 214 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: waited until I was going to go into that same 215 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: sort of arena again. Father. Uh, the patriarchy, I suppose, 216 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: And I feel that in my mind this is powerful 217 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: to do that and then too, you know, make me 218 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: have all those images and all those feelings and then 219 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: to kind of break down. Then I think it is 220 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: as equally as powerful to perhaps make persuade me not 221 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: to do something, just in case I wasn't frety. You know. 222 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: It's just it's that transparence of the intergenerational transparence of 223 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: trauma is a is a thing, you know, it's a 224 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: powerful thing. You can your DNA can be changed. It's 225 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: been tested. Your DNA can be changed by the trauma 226 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: that your parents have endured. Do you feel like, and 227 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: then I want to talk about this new memoir, but 228 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: do you feel, having written about your dad in the 229 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: first one, that you understand it. Maybe you don't forgive him, 230 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: but that you understand what were the forces that shaped 231 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: him to be the monster he sounds like he was. 232 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I sort of I think, actually I do 233 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: forgive him, and I'm not sure. I do understand it 234 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: all the sports, I mean there's some I'm not I'm 235 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: not sure, and I'll never be sure and never be 236 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: able to be sure. I think he had many personality disorders, 237 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: and I think he was mentally ill. Absolutely. I think 238 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: he was abused by his father, yes, and he didn't 239 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: break that psycle of course. That's also what terrifies me, 240 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: or terrified me that I would not be able to 241 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: stop that too. I mean, I feel like pretty much 242 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: done everything you should do or candy to break a cycle, 243 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: like talking about I dink there, but who knows, um. 244 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: But in terms of the actual other stuff that kind 245 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: of you know, I've talked to doctors and therapists and 246 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: I think I have got a handle on some of 247 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: this sort of as I say, personality disorders that he had, 248 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: but who knows, I don't, I don't know. It's he 249 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: wasn't an evil person. He was just a very damaged 250 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: and m m scan and scared person. And actually you know, 251 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: as much he was this big match a guy, and 252 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: he kind of he was very charismatic and ber sexy 253 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: and all that stuff as well. But he was I 254 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: think he was scared, and I think he was a coward, 255 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: and I think that's I'm not a coward, and I 256 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: feel i'd really I stood up to him, and I, 257 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: you know, did things he would never do in terms 258 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: of facing demons and facing stuff. So I I did, 259 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: like in the it's just talking earlier actually that you know, 260 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: when you read the audiobook of your book, it's kind 261 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: of funny because you sometimes at reading aloud things you've 262 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: only ever written down and acknowledgements bits, I like, you 263 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: don't really you just do that at the end and 264 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: you don't, sort of. And in the acknowledgements to to 265 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: my Last Memoir, Not my Father's Son, I said in 266 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: the acknowledgment that I forgave my father. But I didn't 267 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: ever read that aloud until I was in the studio 268 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: recording the body of it and I just lost it, 269 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: you know, completely was weeping. So I did forgive him 270 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: because I think I don't want to carry around this ship. 271 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: You know, I forgive then from me, you know, I 272 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: forgive you. You did it. It happened like I'm moving on, 273 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna. I feel like not forgiving means you're 274 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: keeping the trauma with you. So I feel it's it's 275 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: mine to give away forgiveness. So I did talk about 276 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: how this this memoir, because it is a really interesting mix. 277 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: You have hilarious anecdotes about everyone from Faye Dunaway, Liza Manelli, 278 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: Gore Vidal, and yet it also interweaves sort of more 279 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: serious topics. How did you How did you approach this 280 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: memoir when you thought, I'm going to write a second 281 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: memoir and this, this is my goal, this is what 282 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: I want to do. Well, it took me a long 283 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: time because I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. Actually, 284 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: when I started it, I thought it was maybe going 285 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: to be about me coming to America and having this 286 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: new life age thirty. You know, been to America at 287 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: all until I was thirty, and so I had a 288 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: whole other perspective. Um, But I think I sort of 289 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: over the years. It took I. You know, I think 290 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: it takes you a while unless you're writing a story 291 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: and the story has an ending and you know what 292 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: and you plot it out. You know, in a fiction, 293 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: my story is not ended, and so I wanted I 294 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: had to find out where what the plot was, what 295 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: the and I've done it, you know, between two marriages, 296 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: between the end of my first marriage in the beginning 297 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: of my second, and I wanted to sort of say 298 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: I mean, basically, I wanted to say that thing about 299 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm oh finished and complete and conquered. 300 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: Here's me being a bit of a hot mess a 301 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: lot of the time in my life, having a great time, 302 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: having a laugh, having you know, doing all that, but 303 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: concurrently with all that also suffering and being a bit 304 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: of making some bad decisions. And I think that's what 305 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: I want to I want to kind of normalize being 306 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: a hot mess, you know. I think I think it's 307 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: entirely possible to have a great, successful life and also 308 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: be have moments when you're just hot mess. So that's 309 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: my ambition is to normalize halt massness. We'll be right back. 310 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: I know that you didn't really talk at all about 311 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,959 Speaker 1: your your sexuality, and I know you know, and and 312 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,959 Speaker 1: that was quite intentional. It seems to me even you 313 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: have reached queer icon status. Um you well, you don't 314 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: don't really talk about dealing with I should rephrase that 315 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: you don't talk about dealing with coming out or or 316 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: you know, I know that you you talk about the 317 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: fluidity of partnerships. You talk about flings with men and women, 318 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: and I know that that you feel that that whole 319 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: conversation really needs to be reframed in the culture. I think, 320 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: I really do. I mean I didn't. I left all 321 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: the out and purpose. I even felt in my last memoir, 322 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: you know, they want did me to do a sort 323 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: of it? When did you know? All that sort of stuff? 324 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: And I said, um, and also about you know a 325 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: bit a thing about grabbed my husband and stuff like that, 326 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: And I said, you wouldn't ask me to do this 327 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: if I was straight. You wouldn't say when did I 328 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: know I was straight? You know, nobody asked it's asked that. 329 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: And you don't even ask someone who's writing a memoir 330 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: to talk about about about your partner in the way 331 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: that I'm You're wanting me to do that, And it 332 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: didn't feel organic or authentic to me, so I said no. 333 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 1: And I feel like with this I talked about, yes, 334 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 1: I'm with a woman and now I'm with a man, 335 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: but that because that's just how it was. And then 336 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: I was back with the women as well. You know, 337 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: I just talked about my life as it was. I 338 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: don't I just feel I'm so bored. I mean, I 339 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: said this the other day, like straight people don't know 340 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: how lucky they are not to be constantly probed about 341 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: their sexuality and you never, you don't never get asked 342 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: about you know, do you find it a problem being 343 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: straight or do you know do you um uh, when 344 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: did you know you were straight? And you know, has 345 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: your straightness of you know, do you think being straight 346 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: in Hollywood is all that? It would be so funny, Um, 347 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: that would be a good snl skit Wait, yes, And 348 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: I so that to me is really boring. And also 349 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: I think, you know what, I think it's really interesting 350 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: about the time we live in right now, at this 351 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: sort of time of non binary nous and fluidity and 352 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: I and the notion that I think is coming into 353 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: our culture much more that you don't have to be 354 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: one of the other. You can go you can go 355 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: back and forward between gender and sexuality and everything. That's 356 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: kind of something I've always sort of felt. I've always 357 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: felt that I was I would always define myself as bisexual. 358 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: People comming gate. I don't mind queer. I totally I 359 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: like queer. Actually think it's a good thing sort of 360 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: it's an umbrella that's not just about sex, you know, 361 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: it's much more sort of about sensibility as well. But 362 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: also I think I I think that I have this thing. 363 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: I say, it's kind of a joke, but I think 364 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: it's true. Is that, you know, sexuality to me is 365 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: like it's great. It's not black and white as sexuality 366 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: is like like a vacation. You don't always want to 367 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: go to the same place twice. And I think that's 368 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: something that people are more able to understand now. And 369 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: I don't you know what am I supposed to say, like, oh, well, 370 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: at school, I you know, I had sex with this 371 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: boy and then I had sex with this girl. I mean, 372 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: I don't That's not what my books about. That's not 373 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: what I want to talk about. Uh. I don't feel 374 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: that that's what that's what you know. I feel I 375 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: have talked so much about my sexuality and being so 376 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 1: open about it. That's my what I have to say, 377 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: That's what I have to I I am open and 378 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: I have no shame about sexuality. I think that's the 379 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 1: biggest thing I can give to society. I just I'm 380 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: not interested in you know, when did you know and 381 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: what affects is that as all that stuff. I do 382 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: think it's so interesting Alan, how how you can look 383 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: back on the last forty years. You know, when I 384 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: wrote my book, I was talking about sort of some 385 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: of the cluelessness I had early on in my career. 386 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: I remember interviewing Matthew Shepherd's parents, Judy and Dennis, who 387 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: I became very friendly with, and they're so nice and 388 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: I know they've honored you and at their foundation, and 389 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: you know, I remember I write in my book about 390 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: asking the Shepherds if they were disappointed when Matthew told 391 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 1: them they were gay, he was gay, and were they 392 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 1: disappointed that they weren't, you know, possibly going to have 393 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 1: any grandchildren or I think Dennis volunteered that it sounds 394 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: so dated now and so just like what that's the 395 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: thing that we've grown, We have changed, Our culture has 396 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: changed about sort of. I mean, it's actually although it's 397 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: su precatious and I feel so scared about America actually 398 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: about how there was so much awful stuff bubbling under 399 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: the surface, you know that we saw during the time 400 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: of Trump and could easily come back again and could 401 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: be more. You know, I don't take my rights and 402 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: my life in this country. For granted, I think I 403 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: could easily be persecuted if things went slightly the other way. 404 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: But I think was so much actually has changed, and 405 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 1: since you know, and and and then of course Matthew 406 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: Shepard was a huge turning point, I think. And that 407 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: was actually right when I first came to New York. 408 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: That's when I was doing cabaret, remember it. And but 409 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: I think those things, those it's like it's like, you know, 410 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: stuff pre me too. Stuff. It sounds now so like 411 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: how insane could we have put up with all that? 412 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: But actually what you're talking about when you said that 413 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: to him, that is very much how people thought in 414 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: those days. It it's it does it is dated, but 415 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: it's it's not it's not offensive. It wasn't offensive. I meant, 416 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 1: from any peace of offense. It's just really interesting how 417 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: things in certain areas sometimes changed so far. It's emblematic, 418 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: I think when when you look back, you know, I'm 419 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: eight years older than you are, and you know, when 420 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: I was growing up, we sort of vaguely probably knew 421 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: a gym teacher was gay, or somebody was gay. My 422 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: French teacher, Mr. Holt, who I loved, was gay. I suspected, 423 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: but it was just so not spoken about, or maybe 424 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: a wink wink here and there. And then I fast 425 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: forward it to two thousand and fifteen when I interviewed 426 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: jim O Burghafell, who was the plaintiff in the same 427 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: sex marriage case in the Screen Court. And you know, 428 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: that was only six years ago, and that almost feels 429 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: like a lifetime ago. So to me, I think all 430 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: these issues that you talk about are the things that 431 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about. And the the really seismic 432 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: shift we've seen in the culture. You know, yes it's precarious, 433 00:23:55,560 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: I agree, but thank god, thank god that's that that 434 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: that we're having these these reckonings, and thank God that 435 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 1: we have got a generation of young people who are 436 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: coming up who don't I think in the same way 437 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: that we who weren't brought up in the same way 438 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: that we are, who have grown up with the possibility 439 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: of otherness all around them, an example, because of the Internet, 440 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: like they see so many different things. They have people 441 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: in their classes who are transitioning, or have two dads 442 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: or too much. You know, it's just we live in 443 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: a world that has changed so much, and for young people, 444 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: they've always grown up with the Internet, and I think 445 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: that's completely changed people. If you've never not known the internet, 446 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: not known that you have access to anything in the world, 447 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: a couple of cliques, that is that completely changes, must 448 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: change hugely how you see the world. I mean also, 449 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: I think it's certainly gives you different concentration skills, but 450 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: it also it puts you in a way that into 451 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: a thing of you've had so many options, you've had 452 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: so much Obviously there's room for misinformation here, but I 453 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: just I am so kind of heartened by by the 454 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 1: young right now. I agree, and I agree with you. 455 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: It's a double edged sword because for every thing it's 456 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: exposed and normalized, it's also created a platform for the 457 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: kinds of things we don't want. But you know, I 458 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: was thinking as we talked about the arc of history, 459 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: Cabaret was a huge moment, not only for you personally. 460 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: You know, you won the whole Broadway production when a 461 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: slew of awards people were obsessed with the show and 462 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: with you, and you have an interesting analysis about why 463 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: and why that show was so embraced, which I think 464 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: is a little bit about what we're talking about. Yes 465 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: it is, Yes, it is it's because you know, in 466 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: writing this book, I that time for me was so incredible. 467 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: Coming to New York, my first job in New York, 468 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 1: I'm starting at Blood of the School. It comes to sensation. 469 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: I went all these awards, I'm just fetted everywhere. It 470 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: was overwhelmed by this wave of love. The city kind 471 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: of opens its arms to me. I have no kind 472 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: of touched on. I have nothing to compare it to. 473 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: It's it's very difficult, and it was a lot happening, 474 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: and I suddenly I was thirty three, and I was 475 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: suddenly becoming a certain you know, sexually objectified in a 476 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: way that I've never been before. Um my body was 477 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: discussed in a way that was fascinating to me but 478 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: also really weird. I just had no and it was 479 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: out of nowhere. But what I you know, when I 480 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: was writing this book, and also because I'm actually really 481 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 1: very close friends with Monica Lewinsky, and I because when 482 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,719 Speaker 1: I first came to when I remember being in rehearsals 483 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: for Cobalt in my little flats in the West Village 484 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: and turning on, turning on the TV and all this 485 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: blings about something big happening in Washington and that the 486 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: president was having an affair, and I remember just thinking, 487 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: what's what the hell's wrong with these people? That why 488 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: was this such big news and what's going on? And 489 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: you know, so over that time, when I was doing 490 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: cabaret and becoming this sort of saucy, sexy, sensational thing, 491 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: the kind of real life of America was about looking 492 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: at this um sort of forbidden relationship to an older 493 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: man and younger woman and getting gratuitous details of their 494 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 1: sex and being putting shame and scorn on it. And 495 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: you know, like we all know that Monica had this 496 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: the first person in the world to be sort of 497 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: shamed by the Internet on a global scale. And I 498 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: just think it's really interesting that in that year she 499 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: had all that a woman, a young woman, was so 500 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: ashamed about her sexuality. And I and me in this 501 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: role being like a know, almost like a sexual deviant 502 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: was what how I was described being absolutely lauded and 503 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: praised and just everyone thought it was just great. And 504 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: I think in a funny sort of way, it's because 505 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: people were we were escapism, and we were it was 506 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: all this shame and stuff heaped onto sexuality and people 507 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 1: having to tell their kids what a blow job was 508 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: and all this stuff people being furious about that, and 509 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: then actually here in other way, as oh, look, we 510 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 1: can just we can pretend it's all not happening, and 511 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: look at this young, skinny European boy plastered across buses 512 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: and being all naughty. As I do think there was 513 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: a connection. But that's why, in a way the production 514 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: was so successful at that time. You I'm fascinated by 515 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: your friendship with Monica. You know, I knew her dad, Bernie, 516 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: who's her radiologist. Yeah, because during that whole thing, we 517 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: needed to get to know some of the people who 518 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: were involved in that story. I wasn't I wasn't super 519 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: in mesh did it because this was right around the 520 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: time my husband died and I was sort of kind 521 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: of just holding on for dear life. But but it's 522 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: so interesting to me, so important and still so challenging 523 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: for people to re conceive that that even as a word, 524 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: what Monica Lewinsky was and how she was treated in 525 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: the culture. And I was just reading an article in 526 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: Slate about how Moreen Dowd, who you know and friendly with, 527 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: but how she vile, vile and brutal and having Yeah, 528 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: and we're we're really I think coming to terms or 529 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: you know, many people are coming to terms with how 530 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: she was vilified and portrayed and you know how feminists 531 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: turned their backs on her, and um, and I'm curious. 532 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: I would love to know if you feel like it's 533 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: not betraying any confidence sort of how you got to 534 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: know Monica and what you've what you've learned from her, 535 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: and and what your impressions are, because I know you're 536 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: very good friends, are very good friends. Yeah, I love her. 537 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,239 Speaker 1: We met at a party in two thousands. I had 538 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: written an article for Marie Clair magazine and Glenda Bailey 539 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: was the editor then and she had a party for 540 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: me and and and she invited Monica because Monica had 541 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: done something about Monica in the previous issue or something. 542 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: So that's how we met. And we went to this 543 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: dinner afterwards, and I have I have a picture of 544 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: that night actually, of the of us meeting, you know, 545 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: because there was Papa there. And then we went to 546 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: dinner and it was just incredible. There was people leaning 547 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: over the bunquette trying to touch Monica's hair, and it 548 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: was it was just incredible. And I was just sitting 549 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: getting to know this really lovely girl, incredible, incredible, like weird, 550 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: super weird, super weird stuff going on leaving the restaurant. 551 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: I spoke to her recently about this, and she said, 552 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: I just don't remember that, and because I've blocked out 553 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: so much, you know, and I understand up from being 554 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: you know, having repatro pressed memories with my dad. I 555 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: was leaving the restaurant with her. It was like a 556 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: mob scene, and I was just I immediately felt so 557 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: protective of her, and I, yeah, I really feel it 558 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: came from I. Just as we got we hit it 559 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: off with it, really had nice chats, and then I 560 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: just helped her get home and I just was like, wow, 561 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: she's got And then I read Then I read the book, 562 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: the book that what's his name wrote the man who 563 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: wrote the down a book as well, you know that one. Yes, 564 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: I read that book and I was just, you know, 565 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: I obviously known what what the sort of headlines, weren't 566 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: watching things on television, but hearing it from her point 567 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: of view, I was like, what the hell? And so 568 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: then then we just stayed friends and I went you know, 569 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: it went to various stages of when she the first 570 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: couple of years your friends, she kind of would come 571 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: out to things, and then she kind of hid, hid away. 572 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: Then she went to London and did her course in psychology, 573 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: and then she then she then she kind of hid 574 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: and kept her head down and tried to figure out 575 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: what to do with her life. And she knew that, 576 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: you know, it was she was on that hiding to nothing. 577 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: Whatever she did, it was always going to come back 578 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: to that. And oh she should she know. If she 579 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: tried to do anything with her life, then it was like, oh, 580 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: she was using all that as a stepping stone and 581 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: it was just a mess. And then she I think 582 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: she just waited and got better. And also she was 583 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: going through a lot of stuff herself. She was trying 584 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: to deal with the fact that she had been shamed 585 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: and abused, violated in this incredible unlike anyone else in 586 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: history actually, And so that's why I want to think 587 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: about her. I think she is a remarkable person. To 588 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: have gone through everything she's gone through and to come 589 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: out of it so kind and well balanced. It's a miracle, 590 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: you know, she is. It shows what an incredible person 591 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: and the sort of strength of her character and our 592 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: upbringing and our values because she you know, it's it's 593 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: inconceivable too to think what it just it's in you 594 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: know that some of the things I've experienced with her 595 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: early on, the way people reacted to her, and so 596 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: for that to be your life every single day, and 597 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: then to be so wronged in such a public way, 598 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: and also to see the person who betrayed you denied you. 599 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it was Lindership who ultimately betrayer, 600 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: but for the President to say on television that she 601 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: was lying, to see him kind of be you know, 602 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 1: for his reputation to be restored, and to be like, oh, 603 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: what a great guy very quickly, really very quickly, to 604 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: if that will happen, I think that must have been 605 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: such a you know, a total mind funck, and that 606 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: that's must be I And also to have been in 607 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: a lot of you have been in love. She's young, 608 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: you're in early twenties. You love and you get you 609 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: get that happens to you. How what does that do 610 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: to how you think about relationships and your possibility of 611 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: that you. I mean, it's just so to have for 612 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: her to have been so eloquent and elegant in the 613 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: way that she's come back and talked about it given 614 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: her blessing to this TV show, talk about to use 615 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: her platform for other people who are Internet shamed and 616 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: and you know, bullied online and everything. It's just I 617 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: just I think she's an incredible person and also you know, 618 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: also hilarious, one of the funniest people you know, and 619 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: just unkind and love and she's you know, my she 620 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: was at my wedday. She knows my mom, you know, 621 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: my family or lover. She my mom had this friend 622 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: called Jack who was a sort of partner and he 623 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: died sadly but he he once said, and Monica loves that. 624 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: As I said, he said, you know, you should tell 625 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: of all the famous people I've met with you Alan, 626 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: not Tina Turner. It's Monica, who is my favorite one 627 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: like that. I love Tina Turner gets Puss to the cab. Well, 628 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: I just you know, I I would you know, you 629 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: cannot only imagine the trauma that she went through. And 630 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: also I think you know this TV shots on right now, 631 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: the impeachment, and it's very interesting because it tells it 632 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 1: from the point of view of the world. It's mostly 633 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: about you know, obviously because a big, huge character in it. 634 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: But it's mostly about Linda trip Uh and about it. 635 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: I think what's really interesting. You see how all these 636 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: women are manipulated into behaving the way they did and 637 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: tricked and you know, and it's so sad. What nothing 638 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:48,720 Speaker 1: it's wrong? Is he not able to bring you back? 639 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: It's not happening, Oh Monica, to wait this long and 640 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't have the power to bring you back? What's 641 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: the problem? An affair? It's over? I think right now. 642 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,280 Speaker 1: It's a very triggering time for one actually, of course, yes, 643 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: of course, reliving the most traumatic time of her life 644 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: and having the rest of the world see it as 645 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: being worrying. The last time they saw it, they judged 646 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: her in a very different way. It's a it's you know, 647 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,399 Speaker 1: she's I think it's still a tough time right now, 648 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: just because of all that. But I keep saying to her, 649 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 1: you must understand that it's it's such a positive thing 650 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,919 Speaker 1: for you, the way that we everyone is so sort 651 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: of both ashamed at how they brought into the whole 652 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: thing twenty years ago and also so proud of you 653 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: for coming back and dealing with that, and Ted doing 654 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: it face on and making sure that other people benefit 655 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,839 Speaker 1: from the retelling of what happened to you? She I mean, 656 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: it's it's amazing. She's you know, she's in the process 657 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: of reclaiming her narrative, but she's still she's coming out 658 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: the other side. And that's an uncomfortable place. But it 659 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: isn't difficult. It's so difficult. We'll be right back. Do 660 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,399 Speaker 1: you find writing obviously you like to write, Um, it's 661 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: fun for you. Have you always sort of been drawn 662 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 1: to the written word that way? And or is this 663 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: kind of something that happened later in life? Well, I 664 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: used to write, Um, you know. I started off. I 665 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: did a stand up thing with a friend at college 666 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: and we wrote all our own material and we wrote 667 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: sort of lots of stuff actually were we went from 668 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: being sort of like, you know, drunk students making things 669 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: up at college into sort of national treasures in Scotland 670 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 1: and we had to own TV show. It's nothing. We 671 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 1: wrote all that, and then I wrote more. I wrote 672 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: more performative things. I want a sitcom and Britain and 673 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,319 Speaker 1: stuff like that. And then and then you know, it's 674 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: so in terms of the right thing I do now, 675 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: which is much more bookie. That's I wrote a novel 676 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: that came out two thousand and two, and I think 677 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: I want to get back to that. Actually, I think 678 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: the next thing I want. I actually really enjoyed finishing 679 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: off this book during the pandemic. I've been working on 680 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: it for a few years, but getting the chance to 681 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: actually really sit down and do it every day and 682 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: think about it and work out what you know, you 683 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: have too many distractions for exactly exactly not fit it 684 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: into fifteen other things in a day. So I I 685 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: really I sort of think now i'd like to go 686 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: try and you know, if I do a book, if 687 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: I read the next book, I think i'd like it 688 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: to be a novel, and I think I'd like to 689 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: try and really take the time off to do it 690 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: and not just try and fit it into between films. 691 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: Although next year is looking a bit busy, which is good. Yes, 692 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: yes it's good, Yes it's good. But it's also I'm 693 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: doing a thing that's completely nuts I'm in which just 694 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: takes me out for like four months. Next year, I'm 695 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: going to do a solo dance piece and and it 696 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: starts off at the end festival and then you know, 697 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: the tour and then comes to the Joyce Theater in 698 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: New York and I'm I mean, I love it because 699 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: it's sort of the fact my my stage, you know, 700 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: cabaret show I'm doing right now. One of them is 701 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 1: called Alan Coming is not acting as age, and that's 702 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: totally what I'm doing in this thing. But it's and 703 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: it's I love the fact that I'm I'll be fifty 704 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: seven and I'll be I've been doing a dance but 705 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:25,439 Speaker 1: I'm not a dancer. But I just you know, I'm 706 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 1: just I'm able to, I'm allowed to. I'm working with 707 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 1: great people. I'm going to give it my best shot. 708 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:36,720 Speaker 1: I think that thing of sometimes you know, dating yourself, 709 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: to challenging yourself to do something you might fail at, 710 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: is actually for me a really important part of how 711 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: I live. I every now and every few years I 712 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,320 Speaker 1: see a pat and I do something like that I 713 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,919 Speaker 1: think scares me, like up the wire zoo, like even 714 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: like right, you know, physically I might not be able 715 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: to do this. I'm nearly sixty and that I'm going 716 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 1: to do a dance piece, a solo dance piece. It's 717 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: not even other people aren't they can sort of people, 718 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: they can do a bit. Whilst I clutch my play, 719 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,719 Speaker 1: We're gonna have video and things anyway that I think 720 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: is really exciting. I'm really excited by that, but it 721 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 1: takes me away for many months, and I it's sort 722 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 1: of I'm missing I'm missing the idea of being in 723 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: my place in the Catskills and you know it's going 724 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: downstairs in my pajamas and writing. It would be great? 725 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: Have you ever thought, you know, as I've read more memoirs, 726 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: I've thought about like Billy Crystal's uh one man show 727 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: that he did kind of tracing his his life on 728 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: Sunday is something someday? Yes, Yes, that was great and 729 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,760 Speaker 1: and it seems to me, Alan, your life would really 730 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 1: lend itself two something like that. Would that ever interest you? Well? 731 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:54,720 Speaker 1: I mean I start to feel that's what my cabalt 732 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: Is shows are like the one like I did these shows, 733 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,840 Speaker 1: I mean I sing songs, I tell Stuart these, and 734 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: they're going there. They've got a theme. Like the last 735 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: one was called Legal Immigrant. It was about me being, 736 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,359 Speaker 1: you know, becoming a citizen of America. This one's called 737 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 1: Alan Coming is Not Acting as Age. That's about aging 738 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 1: and stuff. And the one before that was called Alan 739 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,479 Speaker 1: Coming sings sappy songs And I talked a bit about 740 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: my dad and stuff and that, so I kind of 741 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: think I do that, and I really like that. It 742 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: was I really like that sort of connection you get 743 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 1: with an audience when it's you, not a character. You know, 744 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 1: you're it's really you talking and I sing as myself 745 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: and I sing in my own Scottish accent as well, 746 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: and I really enjoyed that. But I I don't know, 747 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: you know, something, after It's Not my Brother's Son came out, 748 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 1: people said, okay, we're my agents. At the time, We're like, okay, 749 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: what about the film? Right? So I was like, what 750 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: do you mean, because well, we've got I said, what, 751 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: We're not going to sell the film rights of my 752 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: traumatic childhood. I don't think writing the books fight. I think, 753 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 1: you know, choose your medium. Well. I love talking to 754 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 1: you and I could just talk to you all day 755 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: because I love your accent and I just love it. 756 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: I love what you're saying. But your new book is 757 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: called Baggage. I think people are going to love it, 758 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,800 Speaker 1: and they already love you. Well most people. You can't 759 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,440 Speaker 1: you listen, Allen, you can't bad a thousand. I mean, 760 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 1: we live in this crazy world, and I think I 761 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: don't like everybody to expect everyone to like me. I 762 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 1: expect me though, Yeah, I saw that on Instagram. Why 763 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: should everyone like you when you don't like everyone? Yeah enough, 764 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: you know. But on the other hand, like like, let's 765 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 1: not shoot on people. You may not like people, but 766 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 1: you don't have to be so aggressive. It's like, is like, 767 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not asking for just whatever, but just 768 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: take your boot off my neck. Yeah. I love that 769 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: exactly exactly. Anyway, thank you a great to see you. 770 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: Thank you. Good luck with yours, but not as much 771 00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: luck as mine. Bless you for that magnanimous finish. I 772 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 1: just love him, don't you. By the way, Alan Cummings memoir. 773 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: His second is called Baggage Tales from a Fully Packed Life. 774 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: Nice title, right, Go check it out everyone. Next Question 775 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,840 Speaker 1: with Katie Kurik is a production of I Heart Media 776 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: and Katie Kurik Media. The executive producers Army Katie Curic 777 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 1: and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate 778 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: producers Derek Clements, Adrianna Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The show 779 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information 780 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: about today's episode, or to sign up, For my morning newsletter, 781 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,799 Speaker 1: wake Up Call, go to Katie currek dot com. You 782 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 1: can also find me at Katie curic on Instagram and 783 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I 784 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 785 00:43:55,360 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.