1
00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,440
Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You

2
00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,080
Speaker 1: Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat and I am

3
00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,959
Speaker 1: the host here. And if you are unfamiliar with me

4
00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:22,919
Speaker 1: or new to the podcast and you were like who

5
00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,800
Speaker 1: are you? I am a human and also a therapist

6
00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,040
Speaker 1: that lives and works in Nashville who started a podcast

7
00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,479
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago to get the conversations that

8
00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,640
Speaker 1: I was having both in my head and in my

9
00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,400
Speaker 1: office out into the world. And I like to start

10
00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:43,320
Speaker 1: each episode out reminding everybody that while I am a therapist,

11
00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,199
Speaker 1: and while you would probably benefit from therapy, because what

12
00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,680
Speaker 1: human wouldn't, this is not therapy nor substitute for it. However,

13
00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,720
Speaker 1: it might guide you to start that process for yourself

14
00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,520
Speaker 1: one day. Now, this is a very special episode. I'm

15
00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,040
Speaker 1: very excited about this episode because today I have shawna

16
00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,800
Speaker 1: neequist on the show, and I was both very nervous

17
00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,800
Speaker 1: and very excited to get to talk with her a

18
00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,520
Speaker 1: couple weeks ago, so I have been really excited about

19
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,399
Speaker 1: finally getting this episode in this conversation out to you.

20
00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,560
Speaker 1: If you are unfamiliar with who Shauna is, she is

21
00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,440
Speaker 1: the New York Times best selling author of Cold tangerines,

22
00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:25,000
Speaker 1: bittersweet bread and wine, savor one that you guys definitely know,

23
00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,560
Speaker 1: Present over Perfect and her new book. I guess I

24
00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,240
Speaker 1: haven't learned that yet. Shauna is married to her husband, Aaron,

25
00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,360
Speaker 1: and they live in New York City with their two kids,

26
00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,200
Speaker 1: Henry and Mac, and I want to say that she

27
00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,120
Speaker 1: is a freaking delight. I don't have another word to

28
00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,679
Speaker 1: describe her. I think that one fits pretty well. I

29
00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,360
Speaker 1: will forever treasure my time spent with her, and I

30
00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,040
Speaker 1: was so grateful that I got to actually talk to her.

31
00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:51,520
Speaker 1: It was over zoom, but you know what, that counts

32
00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,800
Speaker 1: these days a lot more than used to. Probably it

33
00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:55,520
Speaker 1: felt like I was really in a room with her.

34
00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,720
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to stall anymore, and like fangirl

35
00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:00,880
Speaker 1: over here, I'm just going to let you guys listen

36
00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,760
Speaker 1: to the conversation I had with her. I hope you

37
00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,640
Speaker 1: enjoy it as much as I did. So here is

38
00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:14,600
Speaker 1: my conversation with Shauna Nequist. Welcome, Shauna, thank you, thanks

39
00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:16,880
Speaker 1: for having me. I'm so happy to get to talk

40
00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,679
Speaker 1: to you. Because your book Present over Perfect. I don't

41
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,280
Speaker 1: know anybody who hasn't heard of it or read it,

42
00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,960
Speaker 1: and so I heard you had a new book coming out,

43
00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:27,760
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my gosh, this is obviously

44
00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,239
Speaker 1: going to be another great book. But I'm excited to

45
00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:31,800
Speaker 1: get to talk to you to talk about that book.

46
00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,320
Speaker 1: But also, and I don't really know why, this is

47
00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,320
Speaker 1: the one thing that really it's like the one quote

48
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:38,919
Speaker 1: and I don't even know if i'll quote it right

49
00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,240
Speaker 1: that stuck out from your book Present Over Perfect that

50
00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,240
Speaker 1: hit me. It was like buried in a paragraph, in

51
00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,680
Speaker 1: a sentence. You said something like I was sick of

52
00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,320
Speaker 1: being shrung out on the drug of exhaustion. I listened

53
00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,840
Speaker 1: to your book, which you have a what I would

54
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,360
Speaker 1: call a very soothing voice. Oh so you're welcome. So

55
00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,600
Speaker 1: if anybody's like, oh, I haven't read that book yet,

56
00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,360
Speaker 1: listen to it. Because that was really helpful for me

57
00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,160
Speaker 1: too to hear the authors speak their own words. But

58
00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,560
Speaker 1: I paused it when you said that, and I remember

59
00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,440
Speaker 1: being like, oh my gosh, it like hit me in

60
00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,639
Speaker 1: the gut, like you saying I was tired of being

61
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,640
Speaker 1: strung out on exhaustion. I didn't ever think of like

62
00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,600
Speaker 1: work as or doing things as a drug in this

63
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,360
Speaker 1: exhausted feeling as a drug. And I can speak for me,

64
00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:26,880
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people that I surround

65
00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,799
Speaker 1: myself with is I almost would get like high off

66
00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,679
Speaker 1: of telling people all the things I was doing, which

67
00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,560
Speaker 1: I hate. I hate saying that. I hate saying that,

68
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:37,120
Speaker 1: but I would be like, oh, I'm so busy. I

69
00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:38,600
Speaker 1: have this many clients and I have to do this,

70
00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,080
Speaker 1: and it's like, actually, that's like annoying. That's not something

71
00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,560
Speaker 1: that I'm like, oh, like look at you go. And

72
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,480
Speaker 1: I wasn't even enjoying it. So all in that to say,

73
00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,800
Speaker 1: I wanted to start here because that hit me so deep.

74
00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,880
Speaker 1: I want to hear a little bit from you and

75
00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,600
Speaker 1: like let the listeners know too, because I think in

76
00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,640
Speaker 1: the world of hustle culture, which we're like still deeply

77
00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:01,560
Speaker 1: embedded in, we're like trying to get out of it,

78
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,520
Speaker 1: but it's still all around us, and since it's so

79
00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,720
Speaker 1: easy to get stuck in that, I want to hear

80
00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,800
Speaker 1: from you on like how did you notice you were

81
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,560
Speaker 1: in that space and then on the other side of it,

82
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,640
Speaker 1: like how did you wake up from that like busy

83
00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,960
Speaker 1: achievement mindset and how did you get to where you

84
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,200
Speaker 1: are now? Before we get into anything else, because that

85
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,120
Speaker 1: was for me such an important moment.

86
00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,719
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. Like almost anything in life, there are

87
00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,920
Speaker 2: like little whispers you should listen to them, or then

88
00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,560
Speaker 2: there's like the voice level, and then there's the yelling,

89
00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,680
Speaker 2: and then there's the screaming right when something needs to

90
00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,280
Speaker 2: change in your life. And I did not listen to

91
00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,119
Speaker 2: anything except the screaming right. I just worked and worked

92
00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,640
Speaker 2: and worked. And I grew up, you know, in the

93
00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,440
Speaker 2: Midwest in a very achievement oriented culture, where like, working

94
00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 2: hard was part of my identity and it was such

95
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,440
Speaker 2: a privilege to get to do good work that I loved,

96
00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,160
Speaker 2: and publishing has its own, like really weird hustle culture

97
00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,880
Speaker 2: associated with it, where like you want to be known

98
00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,240
Speaker 2: for being someone who can deliver and who always says

99
00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,200
Speaker 2: yes and who's always up for the next thing. And

100
00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,920
Speaker 2: so when I look back, there were one million little

101
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,680
Speaker 2: whisper warning signs that I bypassed the big thing that

102
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,000
Speaker 2: I noticed that the big warning flag was I stopped

103
00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,040
Speaker 2: being able to like, see and feel and taste my

104
00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 2: own life. It's like I was so numb from so

105
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,919
Speaker 2: much exhaustion and so much output that the life I

106
00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,280
Speaker 2: wanted so badly it felt like I was watching it

107
00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:34,800
Speaker 2: from behind a thick pane.

108
00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,640
Speaker 1: Of glass, and I.

109
00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,360
Speaker 2: Just thought, like, this isn't I've lost my way I am.

110
00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:41,599
Speaker 2: I'm out of alignment with my values. This is not

111
00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,320
Speaker 2: the person I want to be. What I want is

112
00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:49,240
Speaker 2: to have like a rich, juicy, lovely, connected, warm life.

113
00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,960
Speaker 2: What I am is tired and numb. So there are

114
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,320
Speaker 2: no overnight like I wish there was like an overnight

115
00:05:55,360 --> 00:06:00,479
Speaker 2: solution for that. It took about eighteen months of therapy

116
00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:05,760
Speaker 2: and learning and relearning and making small daily changes in

117
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,960
Speaker 2: my schedule and talking to people in my life. That

118
00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:09,880
Speaker 2: was a lot of it. You know, we talk about

119
00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,760
Speaker 2: how we train people, how we want to be treated. Right.

120
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,040
Speaker 2: I had told absolutely everybody in my life, I'm your girl,

121
00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,800
Speaker 2: I'll come through. I'll never say no, I will always

122
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:21,880
Speaker 2: do the thing you want me to do. There's never

123
00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,560
Speaker 2: too much. All of a sudden, I had to have

124
00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,680
Speaker 2: conversations with everyone from my husband to my best girlfriends

125
00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,800
Speaker 2: to my publisher and say like, I'm going to do

126
00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:34,280
Speaker 2: things a really different way, and I'm probably going to

127
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,640
Speaker 2: do it badly like the first nine or ten times,

128
00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:38,240
Speaker 2: but I really need your help on this, and he

129
00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,320
Speaker 2: needs you to understand that it comes from some deeply

130
00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,240
Speaker 2: held values that I've been out of alignment with, and

131
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,120
Speaker 2: so You're going to hear me say something I've never

132
00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,480
Speaker 2: said before, and it's no, and it's going to be

133
00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:49,800
Speaker 2: as hard for me as it is for you, and

134
00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:51,880
Speaker 2: it's going to be really awkward. And I probably, like

135
00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:53,479
Speaker 2: the first couple of times I tried to say no,

136
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,960
Speaker 2: especially professionally, I think I said it so badly. They

137
00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:58,760
Speaker 2: were like, I don't understand what you just said.

138
00:06:59,040 --> 00:06:59,840
Speaker 1: What actually are you?

139
00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:02,719
Speaker 2: They were like, I hear you saying a lot of words.

140
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,400
Speaker 2: Are you coming to that event? And I was like no,

141
00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,160
Speaker 2: I said no so clearly. They were like, not clearly. Actually,

142
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:11,800
Speaker 2: every part of my life had to change in order

143
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,800
Speaker 2: to get back to those core values. But it was

144
00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,760
Speaker 2: one of the most worthwhile change processes I've ever been

145
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,400
Speaker 2: a part of in my life. And I would say,

146
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,480
Speaker 2: of course, there are still times when I get a

147
00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,840
Speaker 2: little too busy or you know, things and flow a

148
00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,840
Speaker 2: little bit, but I have not since gone back to

149
00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,800
Speaker 2: that way of living where I am what I do,

150
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,000
Speaker 2: I am what I can make, and the what I'm

151
00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,000
Speaker 2: producing mattered more than who I am on the inside.

152
00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,320
Speaker 2: I'm a better parent than I was partner than I was,

153
00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,360
Speaker 2: and I'm really grateful to be able to have made

154
00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:44,960
Speaker 2: those shifts.

155
00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,760
Speaker 1: I wonder because I think I might be like you

156
00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,400
Speaker 1: were in the sense that when I say no, I

157
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,520
Speaker 1: say no, but then I'm like, but I just want

158
00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,600
Speaker 1: you to know that I want to be able to

159
00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,200
Speaker 1: do this, and you know what, actually like if maybe

160
00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,280
Speaker 1: we can do it later, and like, I just can't

161
00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,200
Speaker 1: just make it a sentence. I'd have to like keep

162
00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,640
Speaker 1: going to like soften the blow. So I am curious

163
00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,200
Speaker 1: because saying no, I think you just have to step

164
00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:16,680
Speaker 1: into this uncomfortable like no, embrace yourself for somebody's feelings

165
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,920
Speaker 1: being hurt. I'm thinking about not even professionally, I'm thinking

166
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,280
Speaker 1: about socially, Like if somebody asked me to hang out.

167
00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,840
Speaker 1: I want to be the friend that's always able to

168
00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,040
Speaker 1: do stuff, but a lot of the times at the

169
00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,880
Speaker 1: end of the day, I want to do nothing. So

170
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:32,280
Speaker 1: then I make plans and then I'm mad that I

171
00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,520
Speaker 1: made the plans. Yep, but I don't want to hurt

172
00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,960
Speaker 1: my friend's feelings. So how did you like cope, like

173
00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,400
Speaker 1: sit with a discomfort until it became like more of

174
00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:43,600
Speaker 1: a normal experience.

175
00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,439
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just repetitions. It's like learning something new

176
00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,720
Speaker 2: at the gym. It's horribly awkward at first, and it

177
00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,240
Speaker 2: gets absolutely easier over time. The other that I would

178
00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,400
Speaker 2: say the two things that helped me were being really

179
00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,360
Speaker 2: clear on my values and sometimes sharing those with people

180
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,920
Speaker 2: and sometimes but then also letting there be a loving,

181
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,960
Speaker 2: healthy plan be like, for example, like right now in

182
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,199
Speaker 2: my life, parenting schedules are different, and work schedules are different,

183
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,760
Speaker 2: and I have a couple friends where the time that

184
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,080
Speaker 2: they can hang out mostly is like pretty late night,

185
00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,360
Speaker 2: so like they would just love to meet for a

186
00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,680
Speaker 2: glass of wine at ten pm, like that's their zone,

187
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,280
Speaker 2: and because that's when their kids are in bed, it's

188
00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,960
Speaker 2: when they finally kind of are whatever they and I'm like,

189
00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:26,800
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I love you so much. I can't

190
00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,800
Speaker 2: go anywhere at ten pm. I can't do that. But

191
00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,360
Speaker 2: I realized that it was like causing me like a

192
00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,520
Speaker 2: tiny little bit of stress that every time I was invited,

193
00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,000
Speaker 2: I would say no, and I didn't want them to

194
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,200
Speaker 2: think like like she doesn't want to be there, or

195
00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,520
Speaker 2: she's just like two whatever, And so I finally said like, hey,

196
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,320
Speaker 2: I just need to let you know. It's not like

197
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,280
Speaker 2: I go out with my other friends at ten pm.

198
00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,200
Speaker 2: I don't go anywhere anywhere. This is like a no

199
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,920
Speaker 2: fly zone for me. But I really care about you,

200
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,719
Speaker 2: and if you were ever up for like a Saturday afternoon,

201
00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:57,920
Speaker 2: even if we had to schedule it out a little bit,

202
00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,840
Speaker 2: I would love that. That'd be really fun. And so

203
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,480
Speaker 2: then you take it out of like the weirdness of

204
00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:05,959
Speaker 2: like why is she always saying no? I'm saying no

205
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,839
Speaker 2: because I don't stay up that late, not because I

206
00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,280
Speaker 2: don't like you, not because I don't think your thing

207
00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,000
Speaker 2: is fun, because I'm out with other people. I would

208
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,760
Speaker 2: explain that thing like this part of my value is

209
00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:18,280
Speaker 2: I have to go to bed a little bit earlier

210
00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,720
Speaker 2: apparently than you do, though, And then here's here's another

211
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,840
Speaker 2: kind of plan B. So I'd say, letting someone into

212
00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,679
Speaker 2: the values that drive your no and then having a

213
00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:28,920
Speaker 2: plan B that's really loving and not just like I

214
00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,120
Speaker 2: can't say no, so I'm going to say no next time, Like,

215
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,800
Speaker 2: here's an actual thing that would work for me, that's

216
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:34,760
Speaker 2: been really helpful for me.

217
00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,440
Speaker 1: Hearing you say the value part that sticks out because

218
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,600
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here thinking, I guess it might feel better

219
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,560
Speaker 1: to say no set a boundary if I know, like

220
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,560
Speaker 1: why I'm doing it, If it's because if it feels

221
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:55,560
Speaker 1: like I just don't feel like it, it's no, it's because

222
00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,520
Speaker 1: I value my sleep or I value having energy in

223
00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,000
Speaker 1: the morning for X y Z. It's like I'm not

224
00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,720
Speaker 1: being mean, but and for work being able to say

225
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,320
Speaker 1: no to certain things because I value these kinds of

226
00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,600
Speaker 1: experiences over this. That feels good. So it's like, I

227
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,160
Speaker 1: think I know what my values are, but do.

228
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,000
Speaker 2: I Yeah, well you do, because you're making a choice

229
00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,679
Speaker 2: based on them, right, Yes, maybe have said them out loud, right,

230
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:22,640
Speaker 2: So you get at the end of the day, and

231
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,840
Speaker 2: what your body and your spirit need after a full

232
00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,120
Speaker 2: work day is downtime. You value downtime, you value being

233
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,280
Speaker 2: able to recharge. So your body and your choices are

234
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,440
Speaker 2: telling you. But it's helpful sometimes to quantify it with

235
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,600
Speaker 2: a statement. Even so say to those friends like, hey,

236
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,080
Speaker 2: I really love hanging out with you at night, but

237
00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:42,079
Speaker 2: I have to tell you when I get to the

238
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,360
Speaker 2: end of a work day, I've noticed that I need

239
00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,560
Speaker 2: two or three hours of like real specific downtime. I

240
00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,439
Speaker 2: also would say, Unfortunately, in our culture, people are really

241
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,960
Speaker 2: cool about people who say no because of their kids

242
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,200
Speaker 2: or because of their partner, and they're really terrible about

243
00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,760
Speaker 2: letting single people not show up to stuff.

244
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,319
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, that is so true. It's like, I totally

245
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,840
Speaker 1: get it if my friend who's married can't come or

246
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,040
Speaker 1: my friend who has kids. But I'm like, I do

247
00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:10,920
Speaker 1: it to my friends even though I don't want that

248
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:11,400
Speaker 1: to be done.

249
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,240
Speaker 2: To be Yeah, but I mean I really so. We

250
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,640
Speaker 2: have this group of we just adore and we all

251
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,240
Speaker 2: live in the same kind of little building, and one

252
00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,800
Speaker 2: thing that we work hard on together is like one

253
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,840
Speaker 2: of the single men has just as much right to

254
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,320
Speaker 2: not show up to something as the mom of four kids. Right.

255
00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,040
Speaker 2: He could be just as busy or maxed, or need

256
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:32,880
Speaker 2: a nap, or want to he out with someone else,

257
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:34,760
Speaker 2: or want to do nothing. He doesn't even have to

258
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,840
Speaker 2: tell us his time and his energy are worth protecting

259
00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,960
Speaker 2: as much as a parent with a full time job.

260
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,000
Speaker 2: Like it, just it's important that single people get to

261
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,560
Speaker 2: say I get to be the boss of my own

262
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,760
Speaker 2: life and choices in the same way that married people

263
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,040
Speaker 2: do and parents do.

264
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,800
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you've said that out loud. That reminds

265
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,520
Speaker 1: me of that whole idea of like, my free time

266
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,360
Speaker 1: is not my availability. And it's so true. Yes, I

267
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,240
Speaker 1: might have more time to decide freely on my own

268
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,840
Speaker 1: what to do with but it doesn't mean that I

269
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,439
Speaker 1: don't still get to have ownership over those decisions.

270
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,320
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. Absolutely.

271
00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Okay, So I want

272
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,800
Speaker 1: to move into what's happening now for you because you

273
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,080
Speaker 1: have a new book coming out April twelfth, and I

274
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,680
Speaker 1: want to start just with the title, because if I

275
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,199
Speaker 1: would have known nothing and I just would have read

276
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:25,720
Speaker 1: this title, I would have been like, I would like

277
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:27,800
Speaker 1: five hundred copies of this book, and I would like

278
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,520
Speaker 1: to give it to everybody. I think it's a good Yeah.

279
00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,760
Speaker 1: So I want to hear like you speak about just

280
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,360
Speaker 1: the title of that I guess I haven't learned that yet,

281
00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:40,600
Speaker 1: and where that phrase came from, and then how that

282
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,280
Speaker 1: phrase has been important to you, so important that you

283
00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:45,880
Speaker 1: have this book written about it.

284
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,120
Speaker 2: The phrase came about initially our family moved from the

285
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:54,160
Speaker 2: suburbs of Chicago to Manhattan, and our kids started new

286
00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,880
Speaker 2: schools like midyear in two different schools, two different neighborhoods,

287
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,800
Speaker 2: so much change for them. Day they were coming home

288
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,760
Speaker 2: with all these new questions, and I realized that there

289
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,800
Speaker 2: were like specific questions, but underneath the questions there was

290
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,560
Speaker 2: starting to be this kind of building up sense of like,

291
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,320
Speaker 2: am I falling behind? Is there a fundamental world of

292
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:19,480
Speaker 2: knowledge that I cannot access? Am I dumb? And I

293
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,200
Speaker 2: was like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Okay,

294
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,560
Speaker 2: we need to take this very seriously. This isn't like

295
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:25,960
Speaker 2: why is it so hard to find my locker? This

296
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,840
Speaker 2: is like, is there something wrong with me for not

297
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,120
Speaker 2: knowing how to do these things? And so we, you know,

298
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,960
Speaker 2: started to have really open family conversations about it. And

299
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,440
Speaker 2: I wrote the phrase I guess I haven't learned that yet,

300
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,240
Speaker 2: and I put it on a little piece paper and

301
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,160
Speaker 2: I put it in our little living room wall, and

302
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,720
Speaker 2: I said, listen, here's the deal. This isn't something just

303
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,000
Speaker 2: YouTube boys are experiencing. It's something both you boys and

304
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:52,320
Speaker 2: mom and dad are experiencing. And the nature of being new,

305
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,120
Speaker 2: the nature of being a beginner, the nature of learning

306
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,640
Speaker 2: about something you haven't done before, is that every single day,

307
00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,200
Speaker 2: at least once a day, you have to say that phrase,

308
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,920
Speaker 2: I guess I haven't learned that yet. And you know,

309
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,000
Speaker 2: it's a very basic kind of version of like growth mindset. Right,

310
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,640
Speaker 2: instead of saying like I don't know period, I guess

311
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,280
Speaker 2: I'll never know. There is no knowing. I will always

312
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:14,320
Speaker 2: feel in the dark about this.

313
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't.

314
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 2: Know now, but there's every possibility that I can know.

315
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,000
Speaker 2: This is something I can learn. And so that phrase

316
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,280
Speaker 2: became increasingly important to me. And then I remember I

317
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,800
Speaker 2: have a neighbor who's just like an extraordinary person and

318
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,120
Speaker 2: she's been in New York for a long time. When

319
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:32,840
Speaker 2: we went out to breakfast, and she's one of those

320
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:34,920
Speaker 2: people that you feel comfortable with, like in a weirdly

321
00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,480
Speaker 2: short amount of time. So we're like at breakfast and

322
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,440
Speaker 2: five minutes in I was telling her something about like

323
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,960
Speaker 2: our marriage, about a thing I was just learning, Like

324
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:44,520
Speaker 2: why did it take me so long to figure this

325
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,400
Speaker 2: out about partnership? And I said, Jennifer, I feel like

326
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,240
Speaker 2: every single thing in my life can be summed up

327
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,120
Speaker 2: in the sentence. I guess I haven't learned that yet.

328
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,880
Speaker 2: And she was like, there's your book title And I

329
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,440
Speaker 2: was like, oh what really She was like, oh, four

330
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,440
Speaker 2: hundred percent, that's it. Yeah, and she was right, it

331
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,920
Speaker 2: was that was the theme of my life for these

332
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,080
Speaker 2: last several years, and I think probably you run into

333
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,160
Speaker 2: this in your work. There's something about like being a

334
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,800
Speaker 2: therapist where people are like, you probably know everything as

335
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,000
Speaker 2: soon as you become a writer. Weirdly, people think you're

336
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,200
Speaker 2: an expert in all sorts of things, which is like

337
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 2: massively not the case when you're a parent. People think,

338
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,480
Speaker 2: you know, there's just all these little ways that we

339
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,280
Speaker 2: communicate to ourselves and each other, like you kind of

340
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,000
Speaker 2: need to be the expert in this. And then I

341
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,000
Speaker 2: went through a season of so many changes, as so

342
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,600
Speaker 2: many unbelongings and so many walking away from so many

343
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,800
Speaker 2: things that had been foundational and certain in my life

344
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,000
Speaker 2: for so long. And then I also couldn't figure out

345
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,640
Speaker 2: how to take the subway or get our laundry done,

346
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,360
Speaker 2: or get it our groceries home. And I started to

347
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,840
Speaker 2: realize that not being an expert isn't a liability. It's

348
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,960
Speaker 2: a real gift. It's really delightful and life giving to

349
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:57,840
Speaker 2: get to walk into her room and say, I don't

350
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,200
Speaker 2: have to understand everything already. I trust that people will

351
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,320
Speaker 2: help me if I ask for help, and I trust

352
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,600
Speaker 2: that I can learn along the way the things I

353
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,399
Speaker 2: need to know for the next steps in my life.

354
00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,399
Speaker 2: That brought so much peace and relief, as opposed to like,

355
00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,640
Speaker 2: oh no, what is it that I haven't figured out yet?

356
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,239
Speaker 2: There's time enough to figure this stuff out, whether you're

357
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,760
Speaker 2: twenty five or forty five or sixty five. That gave

358
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:20,639
Speaker 2: me so much peace.

359
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,280
Speaker 1: I initially was sitting here thinking about when you started

360
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,160
Speaker 1: that is how many times a day, whether I say

361
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,720
Speaker 1: it out loud or whether I say it in my head,

362
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,840
Speaker 1: is I'm so dumb? Like I do say that, and

363
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,720
Speaker 1: I think sometimes I say it sarcastically, but that I

364
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,120
Speaker 1: think even plays a role into how I view myself

365
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,840
Speaker 1: when in reality, like if I was in New York,

366
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,399
Speaker 1: I would have to hire somebody to like train me

367
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 1: how to use a subway, Like I don't know, I

368
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,520
Speaker 1: have no clue where even start at all, So I

369
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,639
Speaker 1: would for sure be saying like, I'm an idiot, I

370
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,879
Speaker 1: can't figure this out. But I even am, like thinking

371
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,000
Speaker 1: about changing the water filter on my fridge. I didn't

372
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:00,600
Speaker 1: know how to do it until I had to learn

373
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,080
Speaker 1: how to do it. But I think when I initially

374
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 1: was like, oh, shoot, the alarm is going off, I

375
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,080
Speaker 1: think my first thing was like, how dumb am I

376
00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 1: that I don't know how to change a water filter? Well,

377
00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,320
Speaker 1: it's not that I couldn't figure it out, it's.

378
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:13,600
Speaker 2: That you hadn't learned it yet.

379
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 1: Yes, literally, yeah, yeah, so's I got to That's a

380
00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,680
Speaker 1: whole just like changing the way you speak to yourself

381
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,560
Speaker 1: and the grace and what that grace offers. The other

382
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,400
Speaker 1: thing is I just had a conversation with a friend

383
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,600
Speaker 1: today who went to grad school with me ten years ago,

384
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,200
Speaker 1: and we were talking about like what we wish we

385
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,199
Speaker 1: would have told ourselves back then ten years ago, and

386
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,480
Speaker 1: then also like how we experience people experiencing us when

387
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 1: they find out what we do, to the point where

388
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,000
Speaker 1: like when I was on dating apps, I wouldn't put

389
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,280
Speaker 1: my job in my profile because I'm like, well, that's

390
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,120
Speaker 1: either gonna make people be like free therapy or they're

391
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,840
Speaker 1: gonna be h. I'm not going there, right, And both

392
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,840
Speaker 1: ends of the spectrum are not correct. And I do

393
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 1: think people assume that because I'm a therapist, I know

394
00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,080
Speaker 1: everything about every mental health disorder and the whole world,

395
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,800
Speaker 1: and I can tell the future as well, And I

396
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,320
Speaker 1: don't I know a lot about a specific kind of stuff,

397
00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,600
Speaker 1: like I work in body imagine eating disorders and addiction.

398
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,080
Speaker 1: I know a lot about that you bring in OCD.

399
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,679
Speaker 1: I don't know. I know general stuff, but there's a

400
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,159
Speaker 1: lot of I don't knows. And I think as a

401
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,560
Speaker 1: beginner in school, I wish I would have been able

402
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,800
Speaker 1: to say, like, you don't have to know everything. There's

403
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,600
Speaker 1: no way you can. Yeah, and when something comes up,

404
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,639
Speaker 1: there's space for you to figure it out. So if

405
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,960
Speaker 1: I have a client who comes in with an eating

406
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,160
Speaker 1: disorder and anxiety and anxiety disorders go hand in hand

407
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,919
Speaker 1: with that OCD stuff starts coming up, I don't know

408
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,480
Speaker 1: what intervention we're gonna use, but I'm gonna go figure

409
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,439
Speaker 1: it out and ask some of my colleagues and then

410
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,000
Speaker 1: we're going to make a plan. But I think that

411
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 1: five years ago I would have been like I would

412
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,399
Speaker 1: have been embarrassed, or like I'm not good at my job.

413
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:56,880
Speaker 1: I don't like that.

414
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,520
Speaker 2: I think you're touching on so many really important things there,

415
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:05,880
Speaker 2: and specifically that asking for help is a failure. It's

416
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,920
Speaker 2: a way of respecting what you don't know and what

417
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,240
Speaker 2: someone else does, and it's a way of esteeming the

418
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,800
Speaker 2: work they've done. Right, Like if someone if the situation's

419
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 2: flipped and a fellow therapist reaches out to you and

420
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 2: says like, Hey, I know this, this, and this like

421
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 2: the back of my hand, but I actually don't know

422
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,480
Speaker 2: eating disorder stuff that well. I've got this particular situation.

423
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,400
Speaker 2: Could you walk me through a handful of these principles

424
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 2: or ideas you'd be like, thank you, thank you for

425
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:35,440
Speaker 2: tapping into my area of expertise. I think that curiosity

426
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 2: and humility, it doesn't just enrich our own lives, it

427
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 2: enriches the people around us because it gives them a

428
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 2: chance to be experts in the things that they genuinely

429
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,000
Speaker 2: are experts at. That's really esteeming.

430
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean using the word respect too. It's like, yeah,

431
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 1: I do feel so grateful when people do that, because

432
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 1: I don't want people to pretend like they're experts in

433
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 1: treaty needy disorders because it is so nuance. So yeah,

434
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,159
Speaker 1: I want us to be able to do that. But

435
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 1: I wonder, like, what is it that like the world

436
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,880
Speaker 1: majority of the world needs to learn or as our culture,

437
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 1: what needs to shift for like this to be like

438
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,960
Speaker 1: a general okay thing. Because I am agreeing with you totally,

439
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 1: Like I want to live in this space where like

440
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,159
Speaker 1: it's okay to not know And I want to live

441
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,479
Speaker 1: in the space where I don't have to be an

442
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,159
Speaker 1: expert in everything. And I want to live in a

443
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 1: space where if I mess up, that's okay, and I

444
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 1: want to live in that space. But I can live

445
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 1: in that space in my bubble and the people that

446
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 1: I surround myself with. I guess my fear is like

447
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 1: I feel like, once I get sat outside of my bubble,

448
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 1: is the world going to accept that? And what happens

449
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 1: if somebody does tell me I'm dumb?

450
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,920
Speaker 2: Well, I would say a couple of things. I would say,

451
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,359
Speaker 2: we have lived for a long time culturally, like the

452
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,440
Speaker 2: modern era is one of the markers of the modern

453
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 2: era is certainty. Right things are knowable and I know

454
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 2: them and I have an answer, And we've really put

455
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 2: a lot of stock on right thoughts and right believing,

456
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 2: and like that hasn't gone great, do you know what

457
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 2: I mean?

458
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 1: Like when I look.

459
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 2: At like the level of political discourse, we're not doing great.

460
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,400
Speaker 2: We told people organize your certainties in a particular order

461
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 2: and then affiliate with these people and then scream at

462
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 2: everybody else from your answer position right like, yeah, it's

463
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 2: not working. And so I think if those of us

464
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,679
Speaker 2: who feel comfortable enough and brave enough to admit that

465
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 2: there's nuance and uncertainty and possibility to be curious, I

466
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 2: think we're the people who can lead the way at

467
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,680
Speaker 2: like breaking up some of that really like brittle, fragile

468
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 2: certainty one of the things that I love. Adam Grant

469
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,119
Speaker 2: writes a lot about this and Think Again and on

470
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 2: this podcast, but talks a lot about the importance of

471
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: curiosity in terms of lowering people's defenses in really high

472
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: pitched conversations, right, Like, of course there are a situations

473
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 2: where I would like to screen my certainties across the

474
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 2: table at someone, but not if I want to change

475
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 2: their mind, and that if I really want us to

476
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 2: learn from each other, the way to do that is

477
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: with questions, right, and with listening. And so if there's

478
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 2: a group of us who are brave enough and grounded

479
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,880
Speaker 2: enough to be curious as opposed to certain we can

480
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 2: start to thaw that brittleness and that like sort of

481
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 2: frozen stuckness. I really believe that that can change things

482
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: in our culture.

483
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, because that sounds to me very attractive, Like it

484
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: sounds very attractive to be with somebody who like it

485
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 1: feels like soft and comfortable, and I want to be

486
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: in a conversation with you, and I would imagine it

487
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: would feel like I don't have to prove my point

488
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: in that conversation because that person's trying to understand me.

489
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: Which I talk a lot about with clients is in

490
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 1: when we have arguments, Well, what if you came at

491
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: the argument instead of I'm going to prove my point,

492
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,959
Speaker 1: why don't you try to understand their point? And then

493
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: maybe that will give them space to try to understand

494
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: your point, because I bet neither of you are fully right. Absolutely,

495
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 1: if we can be the spearhead and in a lot

496
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: of those spaces, people are going to want to show

497
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 1: up there, and the more people that are going to

498
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: show up there, then that might end up being the majority.

499
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 1: So I love that, and I know that you say

500
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: that like curiosity and then self compassion are like one

501
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: of the greatest gifts you've been given, And that reminded

502
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 1: me of that. So how has that been like a

503
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: gift you've been given? And then like how did you

504
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 1: find those things? And how have those become these very

505
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: very important things for you?

506
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 2: In going through a season of so many changes, like

507
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 2: so many of us. I mean, I feel like I

508
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: am very much not alone in that the last couple

509
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 2: of years have been really, really tumultuous for all of

510
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,239
Speaker 2: us in terms of a global pandemic. But I have

511
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: so many friends who have moved unexpectedly, or whose partnerships

512
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: or marriages have ended, or whose businesses have closed. We're

513
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 2: all weathering some pretty significant losses right now, and I

514
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,959
Speaker 2: think self compassion is one of the ways that we

515
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 2: can help return some of that softness. We can give

516
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,719
Speaker 2: ourselves a soft place to land. And really, as much

517
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: as we want to, we can't extend a lot of

518
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 2: goodness to people if we're not extending it to our

519
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 2: own selves. That runs through pretty thin and so I

520
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: think I realized as I was trying to help my

521
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 2: kids through this move, I was forced to realize the

522
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 2: way I speak to myself in my head is horrible.

523
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 2: I would never speak that way to another living human,

524
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 2: and if someone ever spoke that way to my children,

525
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: I would just go insane. But I do it to

526
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 2: myself all the time. And I just thought, like, we

527
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 2: live in a difficult culture to be a woman, and

528
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 2: it's you know, we all have our own hang ups

529
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 2: and challenges. But I was like, listen, I'm not twelve,

530
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 2: I'm not seventeen. I'm forty five years old, and I

531
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 2: still talk to my own face in the mirror like

532
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 2: she's just a naughty, gross, terrible Like how dare I?

533
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 2: How have I not made more progress than this? But

534
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 2: I had, And so I thought, I'm going to learn

535
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: every single thing there is to learn about this, and

536
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to do like really remedial things like forgiving

537
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: myself every day and telling myself that I care about

538
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 2: my own self every day and even saying it out

539
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 2: loud sounds like so tacky and woo woo and also

540
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 2: really important.

541
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think I get that way. When I

542
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 1: tell people, like we're talking about like affirmations, look at

543
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: yourself in the mirror and say something kind to yourself

544
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: every day, I do an eye roll in the back

545
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: of my head because I'm like, oh, what is that gonna?

546
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: But that is the stuff that changes you.

547
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 2: It does, it absolutely does. I agree with you.

548
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: I'm grateful that those are really tiny, tiny things because

549
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: you don't have to go out and build a big

550
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: mountain to change the way that you are showing up

551
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,360
Speaker 1: in the world. You just have to say something nice

552
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: to yourself.

553
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 2: My friend Joanna taught me this exercise. Can I share

554
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: it with you a little bit? Yes, please, please, please

555
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: enormous But she was leading a kind of a workshop,

556
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: kind of situation situation, and she had us all get

557
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 2: out our phones and go to the notes page, and

558
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 2: she said, I want you to think about someone in

559
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: your life who's really struggling but doing a really good job.

560
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 2: Like they're carrying something heavy but like handling it and

561
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 2: you admire them, but you see that it's heavy. Put

562
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: their name dear so and so, and then write three statements.

563
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 2: I see you, I see how brave you are, I

564
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 2: see what you're carrying. You inspire me, you're doing an

565
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: amazing thing, whatever, and then put love your own name.

566
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: And then she said, okay, now go to the top,

567
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 2: take out their name, put in your name, like actually

568
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,239
Speaker 2: do it. She made us like delete the name and

569
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: put in our name and stare at it. And you

570
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: could feel the entire room like, oh man, right, and

571
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: I have done that actual thing now so many times

572
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 2: and it's really really meaningful.

573
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 1: I also imagine that like the reaction from the audience

574
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: being very much so like this feels uncomfortable now, Yes,

575
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: it was powerful and uncomfortable.

576
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: Yes, because what it showed us is how extremely comfortable

577
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: we are piling on the truth right, love, that's true,

578
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: and respect and esteem and compassion, and it's so easy

579
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 2: to express to the people we love. You're killing it.

580
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 2: I love you, You're amazing, You're extraordinary. That like just

581
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 2: bubbles out of us. And then you put your own

582
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: name and you're like, oh, I don't know about that.

583
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: I don't identify with this. I wonder if you do,

584
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: But I don't know what it says about me that

585
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: I don't identify with this. But I hear all the

586
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: time like doesn't that sound egotistical? And doesn't that sound

587
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: like selfish? And doesn't that sound just icky to be

588
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: talking and speaking highly of yourself? And I'm like, well,

589
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: maybe it does to you, but like why, like why

590
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: can we so be out there cheerleading everybody else on

591
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: but we have to act like we don't care about ourselves.

592
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: I think I do identify with that. It just feel

593
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 2: sort of like, oh, you think you're so fancy, Yeah,

594
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: you're so great. It's so funny. My husband will catch me.

595
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: Sometimes I'll be like trying to do like really aggressive

596
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: self compassion, and instead of saying things like because I'm

597
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 2: an extraordinary person, I'll say I'm like a solid like

598
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 2: five and a half on a ten scale, just as

599
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: a human, like not amazing, but like not terrible. He's like,

600
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: that's not good. You're not good.

601
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: It's not nice.

602
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm like I am squarely middle of the

603
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: pack on this, and yeah I'm willing to say that

604
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: about myself. And he's like, that's again, you're wirable at

605
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: doing this.

606
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's amazing. Well. I also can offer

607
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: an argument too. I'm not going to out and believing

608
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: in it, but I think there is an argument out

609
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: there that says, going back to what you said a

610
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: couple minutes ago, that we can offer compassion and love

611
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: and to people, but if we're not doing it to ourselves,

612
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: then we're not really doing it authentically and true. I

613
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: think there are a lot of people out there that

614
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: don't believe that. I think there are a lot of

615
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: people out there that are like, I can hate my

616
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,959
Speaker 1: self and still like be supportive for other people, and

617
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: I want to hear your perspective on why that isn't

618
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: fully fully real. We can't just be awful, torturous, hateful

619
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: to ourselves and then go out and like do the

620
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: good work.

621
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: I literally need to track this down. It's going to

622
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: drive my husband crazy that I do this. It's either

623
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: Richard Rorr or Ronald Rolheiser, so I constantly confuse it's

624
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: one of them. One of those wonderful, amazing Catholic writers says,

625
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: how you do anything is how you do everything right.

626
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 2: The idea of like compartmentalizing and being one way in

627
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: one scenario or another way in another scenario is sort

628
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,719
Speaker 2: of all a myth. Right. The who we are and

629
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: the what's happening inside of us bleeds out into everything.

630
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: And so you can say I aggressively hate myself, but

631
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: I'm extremely loving to my friends. Ask them how that feels.

632
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: You pick up on that with you know, your kids

633
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 2: pick up on it. You can feel someone who has

634
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: an inner kind of a self hatred. You can feel that,

635
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 2: and it feels very unsafe to be around.

636
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: Let's say I'm just really horrible. I have horrible body

637
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: image and I'm tear myself up about the way my

638
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: body might have changed during the pandemic or something because

639
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: life changed, and that happened for a lot of people.

640
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: If I'm constantly beating myself up about that, then what

641
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: I see might happen is I either I am no

642
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: longer able to show up fully to events with my

643
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: friends and to time and space with my friends because

644
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: either I don't think I'm worth being there, or I embarrassed,

645
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: or any of that. But also, I bet you're saying

646
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: stuff about yourself and your body and how your body

647
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: has changed that hurts your friend's feelings, because when somebody

648
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: shows up at your house and they are like, I

649
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: feel disgusting, I feel gross. I feel like everybody's going

650
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: to think that I look this, and I look that.

651
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: And let's say that they think you look beautiful, and

652
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: maybe they even think that you look better than they

653
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: do and they were having a hard day. It's like, oh,

654
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: if you think you look like that, what did you

655
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: say about me when you walked in? Like that's hard

656
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: to say it In yes.

657
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 2: I think that that is absolutely true. And in my experience,

658
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 2: what I've found is those ways of communicating, either in

659
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: the positive or the negative, are very contagious. Right years

660
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: and years ago that I saw a photo in a magazine,

661
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 2: and I tore it out and I put it on

662
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 2: my wall for a while, and it was over the

663
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: front door of a house. On the inside it said

664
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 2: House of Love and Bragging, meaning in this house, we're

665
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: going to fuss over every little thing. We're going to

666
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: celebrate everything, We're going to brag about each other. And

667
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: I really love that. I grew up in a little

668
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 2: bit of an environment, not necessarily like my family home,

669
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 2: but like the larger culture was very like, don't make

670
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: a big deal about yourself. You know you're probably just medium. Yes.

671
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 2: I grew up with like, really accomplished people doing really

672
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: amazing things who constantly minimize their contribution. Right. It's a

673
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: very Midwestern thing to do. What it means then, is

674
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: as a little girl, if I come home or go

675
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: somewhere with any little accomplishment, well, if they're not celebrating,

676
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 2: they're huge accomplishments. I'm not walking in with my spelling

677
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: test or whatever, you know. But if you cultivate an

678
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 2: environment that says, I am going to make a wild

679
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: fuss over every tiny little victory in your life, every

680
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 2: tiny little thing that went well, every small thing that

681
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: you applied yourself to and learned that's contagious too, and

682
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: you start celebrating not just your wins, but everybody's wins.

683
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: It becomes an environment where you're free to be really

684
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: like loose with all your bragging and praise. And I

685
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: think that sounds lovely.

686
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and I mean when I was talking about

687
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: hustle culture, to me, that helps like fight up against

688
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: that is I don't have to hustle for my value

689
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: and worth and to be important, or I don't have

690
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: to get up at three o'clock in the morning and

691
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: start working to achieve this thing. Because I don't have

692
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: to have the gold medal of the Olympics of whatever

693
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: I'm doing to be valuable. I get to like just

694
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: be invited to the show to be valuable.

695
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I feel like our little group of friends right now.

696
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 2: You know, it's imperfect in all the ways that groups

697
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 2: of friends are imperfect. But one thing we really do

698
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 2: is we really cheer each other on at like resting,

699
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 2: getting a break, stopping. You know, like if if somebody's

700
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: like I'm actually gonna go away for a couple days,

701
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: I just really need to like recharge, We're like.

702
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: Yes, get away.

703
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 2: Send me a picture of an umbrella drink. You know,

704
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 2: We're like, hey, I'm going to stay in tonight and

705
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: go to bed early. We're like, go to bed.

706
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 1: Early, do it?

707
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: You know, congratulation totally. We're like, are you taking it out?

708
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 1: Stick it out?

709
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 2: I love that though. That's really healing for me because

710
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: I just I spent so many years in an environment.

711
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 2: We had this moment with idem moment with my husband

712
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 2: several years ago where it was like the evening and

713
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: he's like sitting down watching TV and I come sit

714
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 2: next to him just for like one second. I'm like, hey,

715
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 2: don't don't worry. I'm I'm not like stopping or you know,

716
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 2: I'm still got a ton of these to do. I

717
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 2: just needed, like my body needs like just like a

718
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: rest for like a minute. He's like, I'm sorry, am I.

719
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 2: You're a coach and you're training for the Olympics, Like

720
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 2: what is happening right now? You're telling me your body

721
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 2: wants some rest, You're not going to get it, and

722
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: you're like self confessing to me like you're a weirdo.

723
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 2: And I was like, I know it, and you said

724
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 2: it in such a loving way. But giving myself permission

725
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: to rest has been one of the most life changing,

726
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 2: you know, learning processes of my life. And so now

727
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: to have a group of friends that aren't like, oh,

728
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 2: really taking a nap are we but are there instead like, oh,

729
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 2: naps are the best. It's so healing for me.

730
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: Well, And I think it's cool to hear you say that,

731
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: because I'm assuming that there's a fear out there that

732
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: if I rest, then I won't get the thing that

733
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: I want. And what I got from President over Perfect

734
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: is like I was getting the things, but then like

735
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: I like the examples that felt like I was like

736
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: looking through glass. I wasn't actually experiencing them, And so

737
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: I learned that it's not about the things. Maybe it's

738
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: actually about the experience. And so it's it's really nice

739
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: to hear you say that as somebody who doesn't just

740
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: think this is a nice idea, but that knows that

741
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,280
Speaker 1: this is true and that you resting and actually taking

742
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: a break has allowed you to actually enjoy your life

743
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: and be more joyful and happy and want to be

744
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: in it more than you felt when you were always achieving,

745
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: always doing. I think that there's a fear that if

746
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: I take a break, I guess I'll fall behind or

747
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: I won't end up getting that thing. And to me,

748
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: I hear you saying like that is not true, I would.

749
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 2: Say to me, it's about reframing what the goal is.

750
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 2: I'm always thinking now these days about the long game.

751
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 2: What do I want my life to be like? I

752
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 2: want to be a writer for the rest of my life.

753
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 2: I write more slowly than a lot of other writers.

754
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: I do less travel than a lot of other writers.

755
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 2: There's not like one big splash I want to make.

756
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: I want to keep writing for a long time, and

757
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: so I have to steward my life and my energy,

758
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 2: and my choice is according to again, like marathon, not

759
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: a sprint. It's very easy to think about the immediate

760
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 2: metrics in front of us, right like next thing, next thing,

761
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 2: next thing. What I want is to be a lifelong

762
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: writer who's lived a life that yields the kind of

763
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 2: wisdom that's worth writing about. It's a totally different set

764
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 2: of metrics than I want X amount of followers, X

765
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 2: amount of visibility, next amount. You know, they're just different things.

766
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 2: It's like eating junk food or eating healthy food. I

767
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 2: know which one makes me feel better long term. I mean,

768
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 2: I still eat a lot of junk food. That's a

769
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 2: bad example.

770
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: But that's so interesting because I feel like we I

771
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,720
Speaker 1: don't know. I feel like maybe it's a we should

772
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: know this, so maybe you can speak to like I

773
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: haven't learned that yet, but like it feels like we

774
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: should know that the followers, and this doesn't actually in

775
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: the end do the trick. It feels like I've heard

776
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: that enough times, or I've seen that happen enough times.

777
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: It's that it's so hard to click in my head.

778
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: That not that I'm out here like raging for Instagram followers,

779
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: because that wouldn't be my thing, but I have things. Well,

780
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: maybe I'm sitting here thinking that, like the fear of

781
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: the rest might come also from if I don't do it,

782
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: somebody else will.

783
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 2: Oh and that's true.

784
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay.

785
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 2: Publishing presnover perfect was a little bit controversial because essentially

786
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 2: I was breaking the rules of the industry I'm a

787
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 2: part of. Right, publishing depends on people being willing to

788
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 2: keep making content all the time, forever, very fast, and

789
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 2: all of a sudden I was saying, I'm not doing that.

790
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 2: I'm not getting on an unlimited amount of airplanes, I'm

791
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 2: not standing on an unlimited amount of stages, I choose

792
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 2: a different way of living. I had people very close

793
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,959
Speaker 2: to me say, I think the title of this book

794
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 2: should be career suicide. Right Like they were like, if

795
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 2: you want to blow up your career, you're doing it

796
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 2: very effectively. I had another person say to me, Oh,

797
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 2: you're not going to show up at this event that

798
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 2: we invited you to speak at. I'm going to find

799
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 2: another woman and I'm going to promote her book instead.

800
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, of course you are. Yeah,

801
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 2: that's how it works, you know. They said, if you

802
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: don't have a book out in this sales cycle, someone

803
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 2: else's book is going to sell. I was like, no,

804
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 2: I know that's true. That's not that's those aren't like

805
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 2: empty threats. There are books that are going to sell.

806
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 2: If I don't have a book in the sales catalog.

807
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 2: There are people who are who's whatever is going to rise.

808
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: If I'm not doing that thing to rise, that's okay,

809
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 2: because that's not the thing that I want for my life.

810
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: What I want for my life is to feel present

811
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 2: to it and like I'm experiencing it and not exhausted

812
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: and isolated and numb. And so the math gets really

813
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:33,720
Speaker 2: clear at that point.

814
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also here and you say that reminds me, which

815
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: I believe this, But there's there's room for like many

816
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: people to be best selling authors, just like there's there's

817
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: room for many people to be like great therapists, or

818
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 1: there's room for many people to have successful podcasts. It's

819
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,439
Speaker 1: so if I take a break from putting content out, yeah,

820
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: people are going to listen to other content. But also

821
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: that is where I think a lot of this comes from,

822
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: this like minimizing of the like ability for success, whatever

823
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: that might be. It feels like it's like finite and

824
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: there's a pie and there's only so many pieces, and

825
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: once all the pieces are gone, if you're not in

826
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: the fight for the pie, then like I guess you're

827
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: out of luck. But it's not.

828
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: And it's the classic scarcity and abundance thing.

829
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, so.

830
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 2: Like theoretically most people only own one car, right, so

831
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 2: if you're selling them a car while I have this car,

832
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 2: I'm not getting any other cars. Okay, that's real. So

833
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 2: if you're trying to say, you know, I'm only going

834
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: to have one at a time, probably books aren't like that,

835
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 2: albums aren't like that, restaurants aren't like that. It's not like, well,

836
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 2: I bought my shot and Equist book and now I

837
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 2: only read her books forever. Good then I chose her,

838
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 2: you know or you know what, she didn't have a

839
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 2: book this year, so I chose so and so who

840
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 2: I'm only ever going to read forever. It's just works.

841
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 2: I want to be a part of a community where

842
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: there's only more and more voice, more and more great books,

843
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 2: but the more and more voices who have something to

844
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 2: say because they're living lives that are deeply grounded, not

845
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: just content creators who can push things out fast and

846
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: don't think we need more of that. I think we

847
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 2: need people who are willing to put the brakes on

848
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,720
Speaker 2: a little bit and grow and do the hard work

849
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: and then emerge on the other side with something to say.

850
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 2: Those are the voices I'm interested in, and I want

851
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 2: an unlimited amount of those.

852
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, because what happens when if my goal is just

853
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: to push out content? What happens with I run out

854
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: of things to say? Do I start making things up?

855
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: And I feel from the mental health side of things,

856
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 1: this has been something that I've talked a lot about,

857
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: not in this context, but I get really, really like

858
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: sad and scared when I see some of the content

859
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 1: that's out on social media right now about therapy and

860
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: trauma and mental health, and because a lot of times

861
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 1: I'm like that's not true, or I'm like that's kind

862
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: of true, but the way you said that can be

863
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: really misleading, or like that's true, but I don't think

864
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: that everybody on TikTok needs to see that. I think

865
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: that's information you give in a therapeutic setting, and I

866
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 1: think that's what you're kind of what you're speaking to, though,

867
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: is like there's this push to like I got to

868
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: get content out well, I said these general things, and

869
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: now these followers want more from me, so I guess

870
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: I'll go deeper into it. And that gets really really dangerous.

871
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 2: You have to listen to your audience or your followers

872
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 2: or your readers, but only to a point because market demand.

873
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 2: It can never be your north star. Your star has

874
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 2: to be deeper than that. And you're not selling a product.

875
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: You're building a voice and a setup of wisdom, and

876
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 2: you have to steward that in a really not you

877
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 2: we all of us in really protective ways. When it

878
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 2: starts like I will start meeting the needs and answering

879
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: the questions of every person who wants something from me.

880
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 2: I think that's a really good way to lose track

881
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: of what it is that drove you in the first place.

882
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I love all of that,

883
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: which I think probably speaks to some of what you

884
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 1: are going to talk about or what you talk about

885
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: in this book, because I've messed up plenty of times

886
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: around like content I put out, And I think that

887
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that this has become so heavy

888
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: is because I think I remember sitting at one point

889
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 1: and being like, what am I going to post today?

890
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: And I'm like, stop, stop doing that, because why are

891
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: you posting? You want more followers? Why do you want

892
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: more followers? You have a mental health account? Like are

893
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: you trying to help people? Or you want to be

894
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: this great Instagram therapist. I actually don't want that. I

895
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: don't want to be an Instagram therapist at all. And

896
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: so I can sit here feeling like all the shame

897
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: in that I can't believe I was that, Or I

898
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 1: could say I didn't know. I couldn't know. Until I knew,

899
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: I hadn't learned that this was a whole messy playground,

900
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 1: that it's social media still knew.

901
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. And there are events I used to speak

902
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 2: at that I don't speak at anymore. There are outlets

903
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 2: I used to write for that I don't write for anymore,

904
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 2: not because like, not for any like controversial reason, just

905
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: that's who I was then and it's not who I

906
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 2: am now and in five years, hope I'm doing a

907
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: totally different set of things.

908
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: I want to go into this, and I don't know

909
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: that we fully have time, but I do want to

910
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 1: ask this because that I think is really important, because

911
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: we can, I think, get in this like puddle of

912
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: shame when we change and we look back on things

913
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: that we used to do or we used to say.

914
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,879
Speaker 1: I know, as I learn new things about myself and

915
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 1: about mental health and how to treat clients all the time,

916
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: and there are things that I did ten years ago

917
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: that I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I

918
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: did that exercise that was so not okay, that was

919
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: like the gold standard back then. So I don't like

920
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: sit in this puddle of shame. I'm just like, oh,

921
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: I gotta be more careful. But what is it like

922
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: for you? And what would you say to almost like

923
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: the feedback, because I imagine you might get at a

924
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: greater scale of like, let's say you change your mind.

925
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: We have permission to change our mind, change our beliefs,

926
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 1: change our opinions all the time when we learn new information.

927
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've experienced this, but I've seen

928
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: in the Internet people like bashing people for like what

929
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: they used to do, or things they used to say,

930
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 1: or like a text message they sent to somebody fifteen

931
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: years ago. How would you cope with kind of people

932
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: shaming you for past versions of yourself?

933
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 2: You know? I think that's where a little bit like

934
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 2: when I was talking about the kind of that being

935
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 2: on the one of the people who's willing to practice curiosity.

936
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 2: I want to be one of a group of people

937
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 2: who accepts that the overall goal is growth, and that

938
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 2: means I'm not going to be who I was ten

939
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,959
Speaker 2: years ago or fifteen years ago or five years from now.

940
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 2: And part of just like the mortifying thing of being

941
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 2: a writer is it's like literally in black and white, like, oh, yeah,

942
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 2: you know my first book, I was twenty nine years old,

943
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 2: I was pregnant for the first time, I didn't have

944
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 2: kids yet. It's an entirely different person than the one

945
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 2: that you'll meet in this next book. But it's funny

946
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 2: because people don't always do that math. I'll meet people

947
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 2: and they'll be like, hey, I just read your book,

948
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: and it's so because I'm pregnant for the same time too,

949
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 2: for the first time too, And I'm like, oh, oh, yeah,

950
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 2: that was definitely sixteen years ago. Yeah, yeah, it's like

951
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 2: a little time capsule. And I just have to be

952
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 2: just aggressively gracious with that girl who was twenty nine

953
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 2: years old, and I said everything I knew at the

954
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 2: time right, and then three years later I said a

955
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: totally different set of things because I had walked through

956
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 2: a wholly totally different segment of life. And I hope

957
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: to write books forever, and I hope that along the

958
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: way that what I've always said is my contract with

959
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 2: my readers is with every book, I promise to become

960
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: a better human and a better writer. I don't promise

961
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 2: that I'm going to be consistent in all my beliefs

962
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 2: all the way through. I don't promise that I'm not

963
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 2: going to get things really really wrong and then have

964
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 2: to make them right. I'm going to do that. I'm

965
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 2: going to get things wrong and I'm going to make

966
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 2: them right. But the only thing I can promise is

967
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 2: I will become a better human and a better writer

968
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 2: along the way. And reading them all in order is

969
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 2: probably going to be like kind of a mess because

970
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: it's growing up, like we all are.

971
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm thinking about how like school, when you

972
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: are getting your textbooks, it's like, buy this book, this edition,

973
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: because every so often they're updating them because we're doing

974
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: more research, we're learning more stuff. Those people get to

975
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: go update their books and we get an updated version.

976
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 1: You don't get to do that. And we have to

977
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: remember that there is another author. I don't know who

978
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,919
Speaker 1: it was, but I was reading a book. Oh man,

979
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: it's gonna bother me, like you can't remember who said

980
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 1: that quote, but I was reading and they were talking

981
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 1: just about that thing of like, oh my gosh. It's

982
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: almost like it can be mortifying to go back and

983
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 1: read the stuff that people are finding now being like

984
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, and they're like, I don't believe that anymore.

985
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, you don't get to do a revised version

986
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 1: of your stuff. It's just out there. And I think, honestly,

987
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 1: to me, that's very like admirable that I mean, I'm

988
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 1: not going to go back and edit these podcasts in

989
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: fifteen years, right, And I mean, this is a true

990
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: version of me, and that was a true version of you.

991
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 2: It was absolutely honest for that moment, and it was

992
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 2: the best I could do in those seasons.

993
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. Okay, Well I could sit here for about

994
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: another three hours, but we're not going to do that.

995
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for taking the time to

996
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: talk to me. I fully enjoyed.

997
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 2: This and wonderful. Thank you.

998
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really enjoyed this. And where is the best

999
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: place for people to get your book? Like, where do

1000
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: you want to send them the book?

1001
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 2: You can get it everywhere. You can get it online.

1002
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 2: You can get it at big stores, little stores, local stores.

1003
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 2: There's an audio version and they will all be available

1004
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 2: on April twelfth.

1005
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 1: Okay, awesome, Well, thank you so much. And it's Friday,

1006
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 1: so I hope you have a nice weekend. It's freezing

1007
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: where I am, so I hope you have better weather

1008
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: than me.

1009
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 2: But well, thank you. It's probably the same weather here,

1010
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 2: but we think it's really warm.

1011
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: So okay, well I hope that you enjoy your warm weather.

1012
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 1: Then all right, thank you so much. All right, I'll

1013
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: talk to you latter Bye.

1014
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 2: Bye,