1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of I Heart Radio 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: and Grim and Mild from Aaron Minky. As you probably know, 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: I tend to shy away from Noble Blood episodes featuring 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: modern figures, not least of all because my aim is 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: usually to uncover stories that haven't been told yet. But 6 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: Princess Diana is a figure that looms so large in 7 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: her collective consciousness, defining people's understanding of what it means 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: to be a princess. It seems to me that in 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: some ways, the tragedy of her story emerged at the 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: tension between the modern and the traditional. Here was a 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: woman very much of the nineties, trapped in an archaic institution, 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: and here was a global population with a very traditional 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: obsession with the monarchy, with youth, with beauty, with power, 14 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: but now armed with modern tools cameras and helicopters and motorcycles. 15 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: The myths of Diana looms so large, especially in the 16 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: wake of her death and the conspiracy theories that surrounded her, 17 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: that for me, actually getting an understanding of the woman 18 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: beneath it all was daunting. And so today I've enlisted 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: the help of the brilliant Michael Hobbs and Sarah Marshall 20 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: to join me. They're the host of the podcast You're 21 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: Wrong About and they did a phenomenal five part series 22 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: on Princess Diana, and I am so excited to be 23 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: with them here today. Sarah and Michael. Hi, Hi, Hi Danta, 24 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: Hi Danna, thank you so much for being here. You're 25 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: very good at this. That was like more insightful than 26 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: anything we said on our show, Data making some good. 27 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: Mike's comments do not reflect my beliefs, but I do. 28 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: Sarah doesn't think I was insightful at all. I thought 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: that we I think that we're equally insightful, and then 30 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: I can compliment you without chipping away at my own work, um, 31 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: which is what I intend to do. Well. That was beautiful, though, 32 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: Thank you. I think that you were so insightful and 33 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: I listened to your five part series that I immediately 34 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: had to invite you on the show to to do 35 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: a Noble Blood crossover. For me, it was. It's challenging 36 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: because usually I work with the historical record, and like 37 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: with media and with Diana, media itself seems like I'm 38 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: like a character in the story. Yes, and there's like 39 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly too many facts and too much information as opposed 40 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: to like, well, this is her hairbrush and this is 41 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: what we think she looked like. It's also such an 42 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: honor for you to ask us on because I hope 43 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: people know that you're our royal correspondent and you have 44 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: talked on our show about Marie Antoinette and Princess Anastasia. Um, 45 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: and this is Princess Anastasia. Correct, Yeah, she's she's okay. 46 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: See I'm already tripping up a little bit here. Um. 47 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: But anyway, you have been our royal correspondent for a 48 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: while now, and those are I think are some of 49 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: our best episodes, or at least my favorite that we've done. 50 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: This is this is just lovely. Well, I'm so honored 51 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: to then have you back to return the favor on Diana, 52 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: who especially I think, with the resurgence of the Crown, 53 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: has sort of re emerged in the in the public 54 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: consciousness as like a fashion Nike and I see influencers 55 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: now in bike shorts and sweatshirts. I think she's really 56 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: come back into vote. What what do you sort of 57 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: ascribe all that to the crown or do you think 58 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: there's another factor in sort of the public interest in 59 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: Diana re emerging. Mike, I was gonna have you taken 60 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: aligned woman correspondent. Yeah. I mean I think that the 61 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: crown the same way, maybe that the people versus O. J. 62 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: Simpson Dave gave people a point of entry into the 63 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: life of someone that they were willing to reassess or 64 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: assess for the first time if there's zoomers. So I 65 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: feel like this is is you know, Princess Diana died 66 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: in nine and so we now have a generation of 67 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: young adults who either have no living memory of her 68 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: or were born after her death, and so inevitably, at 69 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: some point people in that age group, I think, wanna 70 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 1: learn about what was happening right as they were entering 71 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: the world, and then also learning how previous generations of 72 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: media mishandled stories. I mean, I don't know, for me, 73 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: that was a coming of age thing. Michael, what about you? 74 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: When did your sort of when did you come online? 75 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: In terms of understanding Princess Diana's story about three months 76 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: ago and I started researching the series. I mean, a 77 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: lot of the feedback that we've gotten from people are like, 78 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: you know, I I liked the series in spite of 79 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: the fact that I have no particular interest in the 80 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: British Royal family, and I think that's like where me 81 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: and Sarah came to it from, Like neither one of 82 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: us are particularly like into the British Royal family or 83 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: I'm also into royal history, but like I really have 84 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: never like when William and um, what's her face, Kate, 85 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: I guess see when they got married. I knew people 86 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: who got up at one in the morning to watch it, 87 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm going to read about it 88 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: on Inside Edition dot com the next day because I'm 89 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: interested and I want to see the outfit and the 90 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: pictures and everything, but like, I'm not invested, Like I'm 91 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: invested in the tutors, but you know, being invested in 92 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: people who are living their lives in front of you 93 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: right now seems weird and it'll break your heart, something 94 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: that I kind of thought because I'm sort of on 95 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: the periphery of that of like, really I am interested 96 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: in the British Royal family just sort of has a 97 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: power structure and like the historical legacy of that. But 98 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: I found that Americans who woke up at like one 99 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: in the morning to watch that it was sort of 100 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: like they wanted the pageantry of like an excuse to 101 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: get dressed up and eat scones. Like they used the 102 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: British Royal Family as mascots as like like Derby Day 103 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, Like it was just like a bag, 104 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: which I think that speaks to the larger picture where 105 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: they're more symbols than people. It's like they are an 106 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: excuse to like play fancy British, which is a very 107 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: fun thing to do, right, and speculate on someone having 108 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: or perhaps not having a baby, and then what kind 109 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: of baby, and then when will we see the baby, 110 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: a good or a bad? A good or a bad baby, 111 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: what will the baby be wearing? How is the baby looking? 112 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: And it's like look at your own babies. Yeah, it's 113 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: it's very much that they become mascots, at least to me, 114 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: like modern living day mascots more than people. Yeah, And 115 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: that's kind of what makes it such an exploitative system. 116 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: I mean, as we talked about in the show, there 117 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: are a million reasons economic, political reasons to get rid 118 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 1: of the Royal Family, which like everyone kind of knows 119 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: those arguments and they know the counter arguments and you 120 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: can play that debate out. But to me one of 121 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: the most compelling reasons why the Royal family is bad 122 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: is just that it's a massive human rights violation to 123 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: make people be in this as dum and Diana is 124 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: an interesting sort of vessel for that argument, because she 125 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: wasn't part of the system and then she gets sucked 126 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: in and you see all of the injustices. Yeah, and 127 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: then a story on a lift. And it seems to 128 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: me that Diana was very bad at being the quiet, 129 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: non speaking mascot side of of being a royal because 130 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: her sort of personhood kept jumping out, yes exactly. That 131 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: she understood the needs and the nature of modern celebrity 132 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: in a way that the Royal family, because, as Tina 133 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: Brown talks about in her book, they basically have the 134 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: social morays of Britain thirty forty years ago. Like whatever 135 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: Britain was doing years ago, that is, like their table manners, 136 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: that is their etiquette for dinner, table conversation. Everything is 137 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: a couple of decades old. And Dianna came in. I 138 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: mean she grew up in a reasonably she grew up 139 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: in a royal adjacent household, so it's not like she 140 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: was some complete common folk, but she would least had 141 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: something resembling the modern morays of British society. In the 142 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: night she rude the tube right like she could, Yeah, 143 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: like she knew what actual life was. The juxtaposition of 144 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: what she understood celebrity to be and the kinds of 145 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: celebrities that they thought they were is what makes the 146 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: story so fascinating and also so sort of comical that 147 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: over and over again Princess Diana is just like you, 148 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: people are acting insane. What are you doing? And because 149 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: everybody around her is either in the royal family or 150 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: these sort of footmen of the royal family like part 151 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: of that system, they're constantly just like gaslighting her, like 152 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: why would you want to go visit an AIDS ward? 153 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 1: Why are you doing this? And she's like because I'm 154 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: a good person, Like why am I getting yelled at? 155 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: What is the reason? And there's a story where she 156 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: was rushing to see a friend who was dying of 157 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: AIDS at the time, and they were like, you can't 158 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: leave because blah blah royal product. Yeah, you don't leave 159 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 1: moral on a Saturday. Yeah, And it's like you you 160 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: mustn't leave, and you must curtsy to the queen seven 161 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: times and then face west and curtsy twelve more times 162 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: or what like, there was this weird protocol and they're 163 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: mad at her that she left to go literally see 164 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: her friend on his deathbed. And it's one of those 165 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: things where you just you can very easily put yourself 166 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: into her shoes and be like, why am I getting 167 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: yelled at for this? This is out So here's my 168 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: hypothetical question. And not I'm not on the side of 169 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: anyone in this. I mean I'm on Diana's side because 170 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: I think that's she's a normal human being. Yes, but 171 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: Queen Elizabeth's sort of like non personhood has led like 172 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: longevity for the for the crown. You don't shine right, 173 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: you shine for a long time. You just you. You 174 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: can't be a flare because flares then go down. You 175 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: just have to sort of stay at the medium level 176 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: this whole time. Is there something to be said for 177 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: this idea that like if Princess Diana had lived, that 178 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,719 Speaker 1: people would have turned against her just because figures who 179 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: are not volatile but just a exist at all, like 180 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: women who exist in any capacity with a personality and 181 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: with flaws, like the media eventually tears them down, like 182 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: does the does the crown. No sort of that. In 183 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: order to survive this long, you just have to do 184 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: nothing basically, I mean she she would have carried on aging, 185 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: so yes, um. I also like that you describe Queen 186 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: Elizabeth's career as like the oil at Hanakah. Yeah. I 187 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: think that, I really do think that is sort of 188 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: what the role is to do, say as little as 189 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 1: possible and just continue on as like a steady yeah yeah. 190 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: And that well, and that also reminds me of um 191 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: speaking of the only way to age gracefully, or the 192 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: only way to age in a way that the public 193 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: accepts and doesn't get mad at you about. I think, 194 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: at least historically and probably now, you just have to 195 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: do a Greta Garbo and disappear right, don't exist, and 196 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 1: then no one will yell at you for getting older 197 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: or for getting older in the wrong way, because every 198 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: way is the wrong way. When Greta Garba was in 199 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: Queen Christina, there's a final shot where she's on this 200 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: boat that's carrying her away from the man that she 201 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: loved who's now dead, and she's abdicated from the throne. 202 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: And in real life she was probably a lesbian, but 203 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: who cares and you know she's going toward her destiny. 204 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: And the direction that she got for how to play 205 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,839 Speaker 1: the scene was like, just have your face be completely blank, 206 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: Just think of nothing, try to amount nothing, because then 207 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: people will project ship onto you and it'll be perfect. 208 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: And that's what that ending shot is. And I feel 209 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: as if that applies to the career of Queen Elizabeth, 210 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: both as a female celebrity and as a ruler with 211 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: a kind of power. But I'm curious about the nature 212 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 1: of her power, and I would love to hear about 213 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: what kind of power you think she had throughout her 214 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: career and also as a public figure during World War 215 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: Two as a pretty young person. Um. But I feel 216 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: as if, yeah, looking at her, that model seems to 217 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: have worked, which is that you you do as little 218 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: as possible, and you also are as little as possible, 219 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: because the more people are seeing their own ideas of 220 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 1: you when they look at you, the more merciful they 221 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: will be. Perhaps I also think that if if you 222 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: do anything and have a personality um that is anything 223 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: beyond like us weekly idiosyncrasies, people will be like, why 224 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 1: the hell are we bowing and putting a crown on you? 225 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: A human person, Like, why am I bowing to a person? Yeah, 226 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: I think Queen Elizabeth probably probably understand how silly the 227 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 1: whole institution of monarchy is. And if you act quote 228 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: unquote relatable like Diana did, it's like a princess can't 229 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: be relatable because why would people bow to just like 230 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: the girl next door. It's like they're rumbling the entire 231 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: thing if people realize that Diana and therefore the rest 232 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: of them are people. So I'm interested a little bit 233 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: in um going back and and talking a little bit 234 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: about her biographical information. When I was a child, my 235 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: only understanding of Diana was a purple beanie baby that 236 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: half that came out when she died. I had that too, 237 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: And I always thought, just as in my childhead, like 238 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: when that she was the people's princess, that she was 239 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: a commoner. But she was. Yes, I totally thought people's princess, 240 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: like she must be reasonably normal person. And she met Charles, 241 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: like maybe they went to college together and they bumped 242 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: into each other at the quad or something like that 243 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: was sort of narrative that I constructed in my head. 244 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: She was working at like a charming notting Hill bookstore 245 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: that would have been great. So Michael, who was she? 246 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: But I mean she grew up like the Royal family 247 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: was her next door neighbor growing up. And because they're 248 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: on these kind ree estates next door neighbor me they 249 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: lived like miles away because they both had these like 250 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: massive estates with like deer that they're hunting running around. 251 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: But she went over to their house. She they would 252 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: come over to her house for various things. They were 253 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: sort of in each other's orbit. Her great aunt was 254 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: this sort of scheming royalist person who was like trying 255 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: to arrange these marriages. Like she was very much a 256 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: part of the royal system. And her dad was the 257 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: Earl of something and wait um, and her dad was 258 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: the Earl Spencer, not the Earl of Spencer, which is 259 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: important for some reason. Spencer's fancier yes or something yes. 260 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: And so she grew up in this royal system and 261 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: she actually one of the only commonalities that she ever 262 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: had with Prince Charles, like one of the only things 263 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: that would have helped them get along is that they 264 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: both had these very similar childhoods where they had all 265 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: this material wealth. You know, they had servants, they had 266 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: amazing meals, they had horseback riding lessons, etcetera. But just 267 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: they were completely immo sationally bereft that both of them 268 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: had these parents that were absent and obsessed with protocol. 269 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: Princess Diana's father would eat by himself in his sort 270 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: of study and then the kids would kind of scrounge 271 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: for food in the kitchen and it's just you read 272 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: this stuff and you're like why. It's like, why not 273 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: just be with your kids for the night, But like 274 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: that wasn't done, especially if you're a man, and he's 275 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: like a single father is for commoners. And so she's 276 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: kind of raised by these random nannies who keep quitting 277 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: because she's like really shitty to them, so they keep 278 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: leaving and it's they're going to jump in the sack 279 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: with her dad, right, yes, And so she has this 280 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: sort of rotating string of you know, women in their 281 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: early twenties who don't last that long. Her mom is 282 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: living in London. They sort of go off to visit 283 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: her mom after they get divorced, and this is like 284 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: the closest thing to normalcy that she has. But she 285 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: really has this like very emotionally empty upbringing, and this 286 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: is something that like you never really get over just 287 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: the fact that your parents aren't really there in any 288 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: meaningful sense for most of the time that you're growing up. 289 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: And her parents being divorced, I think is a factor 290 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: that might have been in her mind as like a possibility, 291 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: where I think maybe for Charles that's just like not 292 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: a thing that is done. Yeah, I mean, these people 293 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: don't really exist in any sort of normal institutions. It's 294 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: actually very strange for parents to get divorced and then 295 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: the father to get custody. He's very odd that Princess 296 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: Diana's father gets custody. But the reason is because he's 297 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: the Earl Spencer something something. The courts are just like, 298 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: oh yeah, he's royal. He gets whatever he wants, Like 299 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: oh okay, like this is this is all the ways 300 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: of this system has these weird little tentacles in this 301 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: sort of official justice system that her mom never really 302 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: has a chance to get custody of Diana and her brother. 303 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: That's a weird thing of the weird juxtaposition between modernity 304 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:02,479 Speaker 1: and this yes and to equated system that doesn't make defensible, 305 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: system that makes no sense. And of course the minute 306 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: that he gets custody He's like, Okay, you're both now 307 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 1: going off to boarding school because like, I really want 308 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: my kids. I want to take them away from my 309 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 1: ex wife, but I don't actually want to see them, 310 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: so I'm going to send them off to boardings. Well, 311 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: he couldn't trust her to send them to the right 312 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 1: boarding school. I guess I think you're being hard on 313 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: this guy. I find it fascinating that Prince Charles actually 314 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: dated Diana's older sister before he dated Diana. How long 315 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: and involved was that relationship. This was like very much 316 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: foreshadowing for what happens with him and Diana that they did. 317 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: I believe it's a couple of months. But the reason 318 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: why he stops dating her sister is her sister talks 319 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: to the press. She has this fateful lunch with a 320 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: journalist where she's just like eating fries, hanging out chatting 321 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: and right, yeah, and so she ends up telling this 322 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: journalist like, I don't know if Wherever gonna get married, 323 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: and I don't know, you know, I'm still kind of 324 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: figuring it out. And you know, I don't really care 325 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: if he's the King of England or some janitor off 326 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: the street. I'm not into him or whatever, And then 327 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: the Royal family reads this and they're like, did she 328 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: just compare Prince Charles to a janitor? And how dares 329 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: you imply he would ever do a day's work in 330 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: his life? And so they completely cut her off, and 331 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: so years go by before he sort of reconnects with 332 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: Diana and then he's like, oh, didn't I meet you once? 333 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: But this is a sign of like how much the 334 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: Royal family had too much spin it? Yeah, did you 335 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: look a little more broken in? You know? And he's 336 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: holding a crop. To me, It's astonishing how young she 337 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: was when they got together. There, What was she nineteen? 338 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: And he's thirty two. As someone who's thirty two at 339 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: this moment, that's weird. Can you imagine hanging with a 340 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: nineteen year right now? I can't imagine marrying one, Mike, 341 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: I can imagine hanging out with a nineteen year old, 342 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: making them dinner and gently slipping in life advice in 343 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: a in a covert way. Can I imagine having a 344 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: relationship with one? No? Oh my god. And I'm like, 345 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: we're just talking about the power differential of life experience 346 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: and being like kind of more established and not being 347 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: a member of the royal fucking family. And there's also 348 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: this thing. I mean, I would think about the fact 349 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: that both of them, in the weeks leading up to 350 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: the wedding, we're crying and trying to back out of 351 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: it and basically Telean Sophie and Peep show Sure, I'm sorry, 352 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't. Yeah, go on, Uh, I've not 353 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: seen the show. So Sarah keeps bringing it up every time. 354 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, you really keep forgetting you haven't seen it. 355 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. It's one of four shows I've seen in 356 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: my life, like all the way through, Dana, I've seen it, 357 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: and I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, it is. It's 358 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: a lot of crying and like, at one point, the 359 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: guy a character who's getting married Mike, He's like just 360 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: tries to get hit by a car, but he's like 361 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: too passive to really start a fight, so the guy 362 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: won't hit him with his car. He just swears at him. 363 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: This is Charles. This is exactly Charles. A couple of guts. 364 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: He doesn't really have the guts to truly back out 365 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,360 Speaker 1: of this, and he knows that this is his sort 366 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: of country royal whatever duty stuff, and so he kind 367 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: of sleep walks into this marriage, and also Diana sleepwalks 368 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,239 Speaker 1: into this marriage, and it's just like everyone around them 369 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: sort of knows that it's a bad idea, but there's 370 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: this idea of like, you know, it's it's what's done. 371 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 1: Or one of the big things at the time is 372 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: that if he doesn't marry Diana, it's like, well, there's 373 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: nobody else, Like she's the last one because she has 374 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 1: to be sort of royal adjacent. She has to be 375 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: sort of lord whatever titled, and she also has to 376 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: be a virgin, which is outrageous, and she has to 377 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 1: sort of look the part and sort of have this 378 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: trophy ish kind of personality, and literally part of the 379 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: argument is like there's no one else. There's no one left. 380 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 1: He's dated everybody else, and everyone else, like Camilla has 381 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: like had sex and like seems to maybe enjoy sex 382 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: with other human beings, and like she's obviously ineligible for this. 383 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: So he has to marry this person who like he 384 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: doesn't like that much and she doesn't like him, so 385 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: he dated. Like how big of a pool is this really? 386 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: Like hundreds? My understanding is that there's two sort of 387 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: theories of this. One is that he was kind of 388 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: a playboy for these years. You know, he's thirty two, right, 389 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: so that's a lot of years in which he can 390 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: be dating people, and so he has a lot of flings, 391 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: and there's sort of women getting payoffs and n d 392 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: a s to sort of disappear into the night. There's 393 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: this as a rumor, But then other sources will say 394 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: that all of this playboy stuff was something that was 395 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: deliberately constructed by the royal family to make him seem 396 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: like an eligible bachelor. He wasn't actually doing this. All 397 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: loads and loads of women would date Prince Charles and 398 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: have flings with Mike. Well that's we don't We don't know, so, 399 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: like I know, I guess I think both theories are 400 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: plausible because like it's hard to know how charismatic someone 401 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: is unless you meet them when they're like twenty nine 402 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 1: or whatever, Like we can't go back in time and know. 403 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,719 Speaker 1: But like it's yeah, I feel like it's a combination 404 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: of Like I guess a lot of people would date 405 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: the prince no matter what he looked like, Like there's 406 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: only you know, the whole country. My hypothesis based on 407 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: just your interpretation and what I feel like is both 408 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: factors that he is not charismatic and not charming but 409 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: a playboy because people want to sleep with the future 410 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: King of England and he kind of knows it in 411 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: the back of his mind. I feel like he has 412 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: this deep seated insect of like, I know, people kind 413 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: of only like me because I'm the here to the throne. 414 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: But maybe you do know they're forced to like you, 415 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: and maybe that's a kind of confidence. I don't know, Mike, 416 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, going That's the thing. I don't know to 417 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: what extent these people know how artificial their lives are. 418 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: Because if you've grown up your entire life in that system, 419 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: Prince Roles has never had a friend who didn't know 420 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: acutely that he was going to be the king one day. Right, 421 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 1: So all of your relationships, ever, every small talk conversation 422 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: you've ever had in your entire life, is with somebody 423 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: who knows that you have more power than them or 424 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: will in the future, and so there's nothing to compare 425 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: it to. Right Like, if if any of us sort 426 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: of got into the royal family and all of a 427 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,479 Speaker 1: sudden people were treating us differently, we would understand that 428 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: as different, but He's just like, Oh, I guess everyone 429 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: just sucks up to you all the time. And that's 430 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: what being alive is like. It's that they would have 431 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: any idea that this is extremely strange. Well, it's like 432 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,959 Speaker 1: how the super rich in America, you know, we have 433 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: the like affluenza defense, which I forget what that is 434 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: supposed to refer to. But I do think there's kind 435 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: of I don't know if it's insanity, but you're like, 436 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: you are less connected to reality when you grow up 437 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: extremely wealthy, because like the material world has fewer consequences. 438 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 1: Your parents like whisk away problems and have them from you. 439 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: Probably you can just buy your way out of seemingly anything. 440 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: And I do feel like you might just persist in 441 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: the idea that the world is a soft play area 442 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: until it's too Yeah. Yeah, you know what I always 443 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 1: think of. I always think of Gwyneth Paltrow did that 444 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: abysmal movie Shallow How which that suit and one day 445 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: the director made her walk around in a fat suit, 446 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: sort of live as a fat person. We were talking 447 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: about this on Oprah like experiment, Yes, yes, And the 448 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: thing that she said on Oprah that I cannot get 449 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: over is She's like, I would walk into a room 450 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: and no one looked at me, which is like, that's 451 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: that's the experience of like not being a super hot 452 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: blonde lady. At this point, she's famous for years and year, 453 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: the daughter of blythe Stanner, famous for her entire life, 454 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: Like she just has no idea what it's like to 455 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: walk into a room and no one really notices what, 456 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: which is the experience of like nine percent of humanity 457 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: every time you walk into a room. But that's never 458 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: happened to her, So that, to me is fascinating that 459 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: she just doesn't understand what the experience of a non famous, 460 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: non hot, non blonde person would be. And I think 461 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: she was blonde still, but aside from every everything else 462 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: is different though. Okay, so here's I also think, like 463 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: a question that like as a child, I didn't couldn't 464 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: quite wrap my head around. Princess Diana is beautiful and 465 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: seems cool and fashionable and charismatic. Why doesn't Charles like her? 466 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: You know, like why he really seems to resent her 467 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: and just like doesn't like her on like a fundamental 468 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,959 Speaker 1: person level, and yet everyone else fell in love with her. 469 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: How did what do you ascribe that disjoint too. I mean, 470 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: I think so much of it is just they're just 471 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: fundamentally mismatched as people. The age thing is part of it, 472 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: and because of the age, I don't think he ever 473 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: sort of understands the extent to which age plays into this. 474 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: But he always sees her as frivolous because she's not 475 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: a sort of an into lectual. She's she's had used. Well, 476 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: that's the thing. I mean, so much of his sort 477 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 1: of self conception is of himself as sort of like 478 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: a thought leader. He's always been somebody who wanted to 479 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: be more outspoken than his mother was. He takes policy 480 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: stances on issues very early, and he's always thought of 481 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: himself as like doing very innovative philanthropy, and he wants 482 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: to talk about you know, big global issues like overpopulation, 483 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: even though like that leads to some really gross areas eventually. 484 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: Sona and I both made the same face when he 485 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: said that, just like just early stage. Yeah, yeah, I 486 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: mean he really thinks of himself he again, because he 487 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: doesn't understand her privilege. He is, he doesn't understand all 488 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: the factors that play into why people treat him the 489 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: way that they do. He thinks that he's this like 490 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: intellectual and so there's this really interesting moment on one 491 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: of their first royal visits when they're in Wales and 492 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 1: they go and they do the sort of shaking hands 493 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: thing and they do the line and she's on one 494 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: side and he on the other thing, and then he 495 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: goes and he gives like an hour long speech about 496 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: like the social issues facing Britain. And he works on 497 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: the speech for days, and he thinks that it's going 498 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: to be like a real sort of coming out moment. 499 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to promote all these interesting ideas, and it's 500 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,719 Speaker 1: nowhere in the papers. Nobody gives a ship, and all 501 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: on the coverage the next day is what is Diana wearing? 502 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,959 Speaker 1: What did Diana say to people in Wales? Diana made 503 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 1: like a three or four minute long speech. What did 504 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: she say? And his sort of ideas, what he considers 505 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: these really innovative ideas are just completely ignored in favor 506 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: of her quote unquote frivolous nonsense like what her fault. Obviously, 507 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: of course she works at all the newspapers and writes 508 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: all these pieces and she gets the pictures of Spider Man. 509 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I also I'm like, when I hear our 510 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 1: lying speech, I'm like, of course, Charles doesn't realize that 511 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: nobody wants an hour lying speech on anything, and that 512 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: the beauty of a three to four minutes speech that 513 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: probably is what he considers frivolous, is that people can 514 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: follow it. I mean the Gettysburg addresses like two minutes 515 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 1: right famously, and what was Lincoln wearing? We talked about 516 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: that a lot too, and he was a pretty good guy. 517 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: You know. It's also kind of interesting because Michael, you 518 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 1: brought up like what actually is the power of the 519 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: royal family, And to be honest, like in Charles defense, 520 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: whether or not he's a smart person, he's not like 521 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: a politics professor at Oxford. He has no special expertise 522 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: in this. Their real power is doing what Diana was 523 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 1: really good at, which was bringing attention to things, yes, 524 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: and like connecting with people. And you know, even the 525 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: thing he always considered it very frivolous, the way that 526 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: she would, you know, go to homeless shelters and talk 527 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: to homeless people and sort of connect with them seem 528 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: like a cartoon villain. Well, this is the thing is 529 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: because it's it's not sort of linked up to policy, 530 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: it's not linked up to sort of broader social change. 531 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: If you really want to solve homelessness, you don't need 532 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: to visit homeless shelters. You need to sort of change 533 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: the policy and change the funding and get private sector 534 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: investment blah blah blah. And what she understood is that 535 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: like that's not really her job. Like what she does 536 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: when she goes to a the shelter, she is actually 537 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: bringing attention to the issue of homelessness. And he never 538 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: actually understood it that you can actually do policy in 539 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: this like back doorway by just deciding which issues to 540 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: bring attention to. I mean, the tragedy is they could 541 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: have made a in theory, are really good team I 542 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: know doing that if he if he wasn't threatened by 543 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: her and could harness and work with her power. Dana. 544 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: I'm curious about the parallels you see to Marie Antoinette, 545 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: because this is something that I always think about when 546 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: we're talking about Diana, which is like, here's someone who 547 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: you know grew up in this world, but not in 548 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: exactly this world, and who grew up, you know, riding horses. 549 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: I guess Charls wrote a lot of horses growing up 550 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: but who who wasn't expected to be important basically and 551 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: then married someone who was almost defined by social awkwardness 552 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: and just could never fit in somehow because she was 553 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: too good at what no one wanted to admit her 554 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: job was. Yeah, I find the parallels really ear especially 555 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: because like from all the records, Marie Antoinette was really 556 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: good about poverty and like poor people on the ground level. 557 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: She quote unquote I used the word adopted because that's 558 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: the words that they used at the time, like adopted orphans, 559 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: which meant like paid for their funding, but specific people 560 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: like she didn't enact big policy changes about like the 561 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: poverty structure in France, but like literally if she was 562 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: in her carriage on the side of the road and 563 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: she saw a child on the side of the road, 564 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: she stopped her carriage and it was like, I'm gonna 565 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: pay for your funding for the rest of your life, 566 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: which sort of is like the the Diana approach, which 567 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: is like do this on the on the micro level, 568 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: not the macro level. The soft heart be in the 569 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: world and the husband is like, no, we can fix everything, 570 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: and it's like can you though, But that's just I mean, 571 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: I don't blame Marie Antoinette for doing anything wrong, because 572 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: it's sort of like what you described, like that just 573 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: all she was born and new and cared about like 574 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: you can't the last thing a fish can describe as water. 575 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: And it's the unfortunate timing of like people being racist 576 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: to Austrians and and people painting the monarchy at that time, 577 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: where it's like, I think if people, fundament if the 578 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: temperature of England was hating the monarchy at the time, 579 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: people would not have been short of finding reasons to 580 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: hate Diana. Yeah, there's also the thing. I mean, they 581 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: were in this weird place where sort of different people 582 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: understood Charles and Diana's marriage as different levels of arranged. 583 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: So if they could have just agreed on the fact, look, 584 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: we're not a love match, we're never going to be 585 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 1: in love, but we could actually make a pretty powerful 586 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,959 Speaker 1: and impactful royal couple together, and so let's just do 587 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: our duties and Diana will be on the front end 588 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: shaking hands and Charles will be on the back end 589 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: like bilking rich people for money to fund policy initiatives. 590 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: Find they could have easily done that, but that would 591 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: require both of them to be nest about what the 592 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: marriage was, that it wasn't a love marriage, and it 593 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: seems like he has too much of an ego to 594 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: ever want to be the behind the scenes person exactly, 595 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: and so he wanted one of the really foundational things. 596 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: And it's very easy to forget, is it. Before Diana 597 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: came along, Charles kind of was the Diana that there's 598 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: this famous trip to Australia before he starts dating her, 599 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: where he goes and he shakes hands and he does 600 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: these events and thousands of people come out. He was 601 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: seen as a sort of the young, authentic, likable one, 602 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: which on the scale of sort of everyone else in 603 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: the royal family, he absolutely was. He was very charismatic 604 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: compared to you know, Prince Philip, for God's sake. But 605 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: then of course once Diana is around, it's like you've 606 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: you've upgraded, like from a Honda to like a sort 607 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: of yeah exactly. And so he all of a sudden, kids, 608 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: do you want to take the Honda out again? And 609 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: they're like, well, she she she broke the curve, right, 610 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: And so he had the sort of glimpse of himself 611 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: as the sort of the likable one, the normal one, 612 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: the face of the new royal family and then he's 613 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: just completely buried under all of the coverage of Diana. 614 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: And so he again, if he was able to be 615 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: honest about this, like what are my strengths, what are 616 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: my weaknesses, this all could have worked out. But neither 617 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: one of them were able to admit what was really 618 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: going on. And you know, she still had this myth 619 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: in her head that it was a love match, right 620 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: like she she thought it was a fairy tale romance, 621 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: and she kept trying to get back to that. And 622 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: he always thought of it as a little bit more 623 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: wrapped up in duty than she did. And so the 624 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: just the different expectations of her and him and his 625 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: miserable family really what made it just completely unworkable. Uh 626 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: do you do you think the public at the time 627 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: viewed it more like a fairy tale. It seems like 628 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: the merchandizing at the time was following that narrative like 629 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: plates and stuff. Uh, well, Mike, I'm actually curious, like, 630 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: do you know how much money this union generated just 631 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: in terms of you know, memory billion tourism and stuff. Oh, 632 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: there's probably like a PhD written about that, because you 633 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: come across figures when you were researching no, because it's 634 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: so hard to do the direct versus indirect. It's one 635 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 1: of the arguments against getting rid of the royal family 636 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: is always that it would affect tourism. So some percentage 637 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: of tourism is generated by like visiting the Buckingham Palace 638 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,280 Speaker 1: and like going to see all the royal sites, etcetera. 639 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,280 Speaker 1: And so people wondering the guards, right, everyone wants to bother, 640 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: and so some percentage of sort of visits to Britain 641 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: would have been arranged around their wedding and it would 642 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: have spiked slightly in the months afterwards. Like there's all 643 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: these sort of very difficult to measure effects of this, 644 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: but it would be in the sort of probably in 645 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 1: the billions eventually. I mean, the the amount of stuff 646 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: that you could buy with their faces on it. I 647 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,919 Speaker 1: mean people have been sending us like like my mom 648 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: and her cupboard has you know this like dollhouse that 649 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: was like an official royal family thing, or like towels 650 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: and plates like just murt was nuts. Yeah. Yeah. And 651 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: and also I feel as if they were considered important 652 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: for the morale of the country, right, yeah, like what 653 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: like who will we look up to? Who is a 654 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: positive figure, like we're having a bad time economically, UM, 655 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: like we need this, you guys, Like, I feel like 656 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: that's kind of the I don't like. Just from what 657 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: we've talked about in this series, I feel like that 658 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: was a feeling that was present. I'm also now wondering 659 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: because we guess recorded an episode on John Delorian, who 660 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: had to negotiate with Margaret thatcher Um at one point 661 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: in his career because he was manufacturing in Belfast. I 662 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: was like, did he ever, you know, maybe meet the 663 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: Charles and Diana seems possible that Peter Morgan's going to 664 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: figure it out if they did. I feel like I 665 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: would show up in a DeLorean deep dive more than 666 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: Charles and Diana deep dive because they met every buddy. 667 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: But yeah, and I mean it's funny. I was just 668 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: watching Muriel's Wedding, which has a scene where the main character, 669 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 1: who's obsessed with getting married and with weddings, is working 670 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: in a video store and she is watching and specifically 671 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 1: watching and then rewinding and rewatching Princess Diana approaching in 672 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: her carriage and getting out and the dress being unveiled, 673 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: this dress, And I remember, Mike you describing like it's 674 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: just her little Diana and her little dad in her 675 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: little carriage with her giant dress with feet of train, yeah, 676 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: like packed in. They're like when you order command hooks 677 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: from Amazon, and they're like, we thought you needed seventy 678 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: five thousand peanuts to keep these command hooks nice and safe. 679 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: And you know, and I do feel like just having 680 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: that resonant image of a bride, like I just I 681 00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: understood her to be iconic before I understood anything else 682 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: about her. So I guess I don't know. My sense 683 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: is that like, no matter what, you're more nuanced attitude 684 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 1: towards the whole situation. Like I think the general consensus 685 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: was like, these people are not going anywhere. Like it is, 686 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: even if I don't like them, it is unimactionable that 687 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: they wouldn't be doing what they're doing. It's actually very 688 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: interesting to think about the ways in which, even as 689 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: she critiques the Royal family and in a lot of 690 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: ways revealed the flaws of the Royal family, Princess Diana 691 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: I think was also very important for promoting the idea 692 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: of the royal family. You know, for more than a 693 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 1: decade there after their wedding, she was extremely popular, and 694 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: there was a sense of like, this is part of 695 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: our national character that we have this dollhouse with these 696 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: pageant ish characters that are going around the world and 697 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: meeting with high level people and they're promoting land mine 698 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: stuff at the u N. I mean, this does actually 699 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 1: affect public moral and a lot of it, Like there's 700 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: there's sort of possibly not true stories of you know, 701 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: Austra really a thinking of trying to leave the Commonwealth, 702 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: and then there's a visit by Charles and Diana and 703 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: they're like, maybe the Royal and so these kinds of 704 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: things do actually matter for sort of how do we 705 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 1: think about this institution And so it's interesting and that 706 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: you know, she was so critical of the Royal family 707 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 1: and the royal family treated her terribly, but as a 708 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: symbol of the Royal family, we finally had a likable 709 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: symbol that like people were like, maybe we can wait 710 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: a couple more decades before we get rid of this thing. Yeah. 711 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 1: That was a really I think fun episode of The Crown. 712 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: If you watch the most recent season with a god, 713 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to get this wrong, and I apologize in advance. 714 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: Whether the Prime Minister or the President of Australia. Uh, 715 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: Prime minister, Prime minister, thank you? Uh was you know, 716 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: garnering public support for leaving the Commonwealth but people like 717 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: Diana so much. He's like, well, I can't have this 718 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: conversation now. Yeah. I mean I think that they were 719 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: playing that up a little bit in the ground and 720 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,760 Speaker 1: like that episode is like factually like there's massive factual 721 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: errors in that episode, but like it is saying something 722 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: about it's easier to sort of swallow the royal family 723 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: when the main face of it is genuinely likable and 724 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: seems like somebody who's you know, down to earth, and 725 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: like she is visiting homeless shelters and doing stuff on aids, etcetera. 726 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: She also looks like a princess. I feel like the 727 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,800 Speaker 1: Sufi dress that like shoulder dressed, and the literal princess 728 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: skirt and the getting out of a carriage even that 729 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:29,800 Speaker 1: like articulated in my conception the archetype of what a 730 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: princess is for a long time. Yeah. I think it's 731 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: really important that people need beautiful things to look at, 732 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: and people want to see pageants and we want to 733 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: see you know, beautiful people wearing beautiful clothes, and we 734 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,240 Speaker 1: will just you know, we will go to great links 735 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: to have that in our lives. And I think that 736 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,879 Speaker 1: if we recognize that that's a human need, we would 737 00:39:52,360 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: obtain it in ways that are less weird. So now, 738 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 1: moving a little bit further in the story, I'm interested 739 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: in when the marriage dissolved, which seemed sort of inevitable 740 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: based on their personalities, as you mentioned, Michael, how did 741 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,720 Speaker 1: the public react. Who's who was the one that people 742 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: blamed at the time. I mean, this was it depends. 743 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: I mean there were there were parts of the British 744 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 1: establishment that blamed her that you know, the minute she 745 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: did the infamous Panorama interview. She spoke to this journalist 746 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,879 Speaker 1: Andrew Morton for a sort of unauthorized biography about her, 747 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 1: and she pretended that he didn't interview her for years 748 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: when he actually did so all the information was true. 749 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: The establishment was like, oh my god, it's so cringe 750 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: e right, she's talking about eating disorders, she's talking about 751 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 1: suicide attempts. You know, this is not done by high 752 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: level royal people. How there she But then most of 753 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 1: the public was like, hey, she's a person in like 754 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 1: this is actually really relatable and she's in like a 755 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 1: shitty marriage with like this kind of trash dude, and 756 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: that sounds like my life too, and so the sort 757 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,839 Speaker 1: of the people who quote unquote matter really blamed her 758 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: for it, and we're just mortified at the fact that 759 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 1: she was putting all this stuff into the public realm. 760 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: But the subjects, like people in Britain really liked her 761 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: after this and like hated Charles for years after this. 762 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: I read somewhere and I think this is correct that 763 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:35,359 Speaker 1: for a little while before Prince Charles married Camilla, you know, 764 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 1: in the recent last few decades, he hired like a 765 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: very famous, expensive publicist to try to revamp both of 766 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,240 Speaker 1: their public images, and so the way that he reintroduced 767 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: Camilla to the public was a very very controlled, systemic 768 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:54,319 Speaker 1: interesting like like they made a few appearances not as 769 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 1: an official couple. Then you know, like it was incredibly 770 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: controlled how they were introduced Camilla to not be the 771 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,479 Speaker 1: other woman at a point where they're like hopefully people 772 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 1: kind of forgot about Diana a little bit, and then 773 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: I just feel like the Crown came out and they 774 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: had to set their Instagrams to private or like, hey, 775 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: wait a minute, I knew I from they were really 776 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,280 Speaker 1: trying to sneak back in there. So just one brief aside, 777 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: what do you make of Camilla, both of you, that 778 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 1: class woman. The pictures of her when she's younger, she 779 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: looks like this, like hot, sporty, you know, posh lady. 780 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,399 Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, and then she married someone else, 781 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: so it just wasn't quite to be. But then of 782 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,839 Speaker 1: course she and Prince Charles, Like, I mean, how soon 783 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 1: did they start having an affair into the Diana relationship, Mike, 784 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: It depends if you ask, but it's either like four 785 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 1: years or like two years, okay, so like between two 786 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,800 Speaker 1: and four years, so like not, you know, this is 787 00:42:54,840 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: a young marriage, um that is already sustain you know, 788 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,439 Speaker 1: some some some heavy winter weather. I guess I don't 789 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 1: know in the form of Camilla, but it's because clear 790 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,279 Speaker 1: that they were a love match with each other. And 791 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: I remember we talked about, you know, the squidgy Gate 792 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,400 Speaker 1: tape where Charles is on the phone with Camilla, and 793 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: I am a staunch defender of Charles against you know, 794 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 1: this idea that it is somehow embarrassing to say that 795 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,879 Speaker 1: you wish you could turn into a tiny man who 796 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 1: lives in the vagina of the woman you love, Like, 797 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: I think that's beautiful. I will ploset that there are 798 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: intimate texts and emails and phone calls between every couple 799 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: that would be humiliating if they've made the light day 800 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 1: so ei, there aren't humiliating texts or like little or 801 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 1: phone conversations or just nicknames or sexual concepts between you 802 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,439 Speaker 1: than like maybe or maybe you could be communicating more. 803 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,359 Speaker 1: I don't know. I also think, I mean, we did 804 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:05,040 Speaker 1: a dramatic table read of infamous tampon tapes for some people, yes, extremely, 805 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 1: including my boyfriend, and what really comes out from those. 806 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 1: Of course everybody focuses on the tampon jokes whatever, but 807 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,920 Speaker 1: it's like a forty five minute long transcript and it's 808 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 1: a portrait of like a very functional relationship and it's 809 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,319 Speaker 1: really the only functional romantic relationship that he ever had 810 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 1: in his life. And you know, Camilla's like, hey, what's 811 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,160 Speaker 1: your speech about tomorrow? Tell me a little bit about it. 812 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,240 Speaker 1: You know, the last speech you gave was really good. 813 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: Can't wait to see the transcript of this one. Just 814 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: basic like supporting your husband in his endeavors and asking 815 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 1: him about his ideas. And that's what it is to 816 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 1: love someone to be genuinely interested in their stupid speech 817 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 1: that I'm sure it's very long, and but like it's 818 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,279 Speaker 1: like you have to care about someone a lot to 819 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: want to read the transcript of their speech on like 820 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 1: the Welsh economy. Yes, and like Princess Diana was not 821 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,879 Speaker 1: someone who was really interested in that aspect of his life. 822 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,319 Speaker 1: And they were, you know, even as he sort of 823 00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 1: tried to spoon feed her and force with her these 824 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: these pseudo intellectual ideas, she saw there as a vessel 825 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,560 Speaker 1: for like really nasty behavior from him, and so she 826 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,239 Speaker 1: never really engaged with him on that level. She never 827 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:09,839 Speaker 1: gave him praise, but like, hey, you did a really 828 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:11,439 Speaker 1: good job at your speech the other day. I read 829 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 1: it like that was not an aspect of their relationship. 830 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,759 Speaker 1: And so in those tapes, like the tampon things kind 831 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 1: of an inside joke, like a cute inside joke. And 832 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,720 Speaker 1: that's a hallmark of functioning relationships, when you're generating inside 833 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: jokes with each other and you sort of riff on 834 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,799 Speaker 1: the same concept with each other. And it's not clear 835 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 1: that he was ever getting that from Diana. It was 836 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,040 Speaker 1: always this very formal thing he could never really be 837 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 1: himself around her, she could never be herself. It just 838 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: never matched. And so those tapes are like really a 839 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 1: portrait of a couple clicking with each other, and it's 840 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,360 Speaker 1: kind of nice. I mean, once again, I'm reminded of 841 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,440 Speaker 1: Marie Antoinette or guess sort of royal frank royal family 842 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,320 Speaker 1: protocol generally, because one of my favorite things about Versailles 843 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,319 Speaker 1: and Louis backed this trend. But it was like a 844 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: salary position to be a royal mistress, and like there 845 00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,000 Speaker 1: was money, you know, budgeted for that, and it was like, okay, 846 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,279 Speaker 1: new fiscal year for the royal mistress, and everyone agreed that, 847 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: like someone had to do that. And I just feel 848 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 1: like this is one of those relationships where like everyone 849 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: at the outset was like, okay, here the ground rules. 850 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,799 Speaker 1: We're gonna discreetly have affairs. I don't want to see this, 851 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,360 Speaker 1: you don't want to see that. And then you know, 852 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 1: just like if like their marriage is is a career, 853 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, I feel like you can't if you're if 854 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,279 Speaker 1: your marriage to someone is your vocation, then I it 855 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,279 Speaker 1: just seems like it's really hard for that to be 856 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: also your primary romantic relationship, Like you have to be 857 00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,239 Speaker 1: really strong going in I think, and you know that 858 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,279 Speaker 1: another really interesting parallel between Diana, not a parallel, a 859 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:46,280 Speaker 1: a point of comparison between Marie Antoinette and Diana, because 860 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 1: historically the purpose, not the purpose, but an incidental purpose 861 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 1: of a royal mistress was to deflect fire away from 862 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 1: the queen. I didn't realize that that's so great. It's 863 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,760 Speaker 1: sort of a Madonna whore complex, which is is troubling, 864 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: but but was really effective where people could see the 865 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:10,080 Speaker 1: queen as as maternal and and um, you know, perfect 866 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,080 Speaker 1: and flawless, holy and quiet, and then they could fulfill 867 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,839 Speaker 1: their needs of like gossip and like petty little like 868 00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 1: incidental talk about the royal mistress. And as you mentioned, 869 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: Louis the sixteenth buck to the trend, he didn't have 870 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 1: a royal mistress, so all of that like petty gossip 871 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,800 Speaker 1: energy just funneled only to Marie Antoinette, where in another 872 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,840 Speaker 1: case it would have been, you know, distributed probably between 873 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: two or three other women. Because as a society we 874 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,360 Speaker 1: just culturally love talking about and gossiping about and diminishing. 875 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: You just have to have at least one the the 876 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,200 Speaker 1: what we've learned is that you have to have at 877 00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,360 Speaker 1: least one woman in the public sector to just be 878 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:52,120 Speaker 1: like a spittoon for for public enmity, and then you 879 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,840 Speaker 1: can protect, you know, and then another woman can quietly, 880 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,840 Speaker 1: you know, not be loath. But you do have to 881 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 1: have at least one for people to hate there somewhere 882 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,920 Speaker 1: Like there's also an interesting thing with Camilla because it's 883 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,320 Speaker 1: one of the only times that we have this weird 884 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,040 Speaker 1: sort of switching of who is the wife and who 885 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,759 Speaker 1: is the mistress, because if you look at them aesthetically, 886 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: Camilla should have been his wife and Diana should have 887 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,680 Speaker 1: been his mystery. It's one of those American hustle things 888 00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 1: where like he's he's married to who, and he's having 889 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,200 Speaker 1: an affair with which one yes, So it's this weird 890 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,000 Speaker 1: It's just it's sort of rejiggered the way that the 891 00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 1: tabloids sort of dealt with this, that Diana ended up 892 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,560 Speaker 1: being the vessel for a lot of the gossip and 893 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,600 Speaker 1: Camilla was just sort of like this empty presence. There 894 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,440 Speaker 1: wasn't much to project on her. But I think the 895 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 1: benefit of Camilla those people could hate her and then 896 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 1: make Diana seem more saintly by comparison, yes, exactly. And 897 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,680 Speaker 1: also I mean Camilla didn't like Diana. Camilla treated her terribly, 898 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:53,319 Speaker 1: like I don't I don't want to sort of be 899 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 1: the you're wrong about Camilla necessarily. I think all three 900 00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 1: of these people acted terribly to each other and did 901 00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:07,480 Speaker 1: not each other in ways that manifested into people. Yeah. 902 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 1: One of the one of the academic articles that I 903 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: read that I didn't get to bring up on the 904 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:16,040 Speaker 1: show was called I Believe the Croning of Camilla, and 905 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,439 Speaker 1: it talked about how in the press, whenever they would 906 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 1: talk about Camilla, they would always unfavorably compare her to Diana, 907 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,360 Speaker 1: you know, like her beak like nose and her wrinkled eyes, 908 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 1: and it was something that every time they brought her up, 909 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,840 Speaker 1: they had to mention that she was like less attractive 910 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,239 Speaker 1: than Diana, Right, And so it did make her seem 911 00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,920 Speaker 1: somewhat tragic to me that, you know, she's with this 912 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,000 Speaker 1: guy in this like pretty functional relationship, and yet whenever 913 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,600 Speaker 1: she shows up in the media, they have to say like, oh, 914 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:47,880 Speaker 1: she's ugly and anyway, he seems really like her, and 915 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,719 Speaker 1: they're in this blah blah blah. Right. It just it's 916 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:52,839 Speaker 1: just interesting that like that was something that they had 917 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,120 Speaker 1: to do. And I feel like there's something weird about 918 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,360 Speaker 1: just constantly being compared to somebody like Diana that I 919 00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,879 Speaker 1: think would be really hard, especially and this is now 920 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:05,239 Speaker 1: a transition, Especially when you die at your peak and 921 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 1: never and never have to age in public or you 922 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 1: know you can, you can only always be remembered favorably. 923 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:19,000 Speaker 1: Diana is very tragic death then catapulted her from global 924 00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:26,200 Speaker 1: celebrity to icon. What even is higher than icon? Yeah? Symbols? 925 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,839 Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, why do you think there are 926 00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,399 Speaker 1: so many conspiracy theories around her death? Because the Royal 927 00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:38,879 Speaker 1: family killed? Are using m I six did the Royal 928 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,960 Speaker 1: family killing? I thought that was clear? Do they kill 929 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,239 Speaker 1: the loved private sitisens? I think my theory on this, 930 00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 1: like all conspiracy theories, is it's just such an unsatisfying 931 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:55,080 Speaker 1: end because the sort of larger than life figure. And 932 00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 1: then how does she die? She dies in a drunk 933 00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:02,680 Speaker 1: driving accident. It's like the most pedestrian, Quotitian way that 934 00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: somebody can die, and that just but she wasn't wearing 935 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,080 Speaker 1: her seatbelt. It's like an ad that should play for 936 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,520 Speaker 1: high schools. Dude, yeah, I know, and it's just like 937 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,960 Speaker 1: there's just something so kind of unresonant about the way 938 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:17,960 Speaker 1: that she died. It seems wrong, right if you were 939 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: making a movie about it, she would like kill herself 940 00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,040 Speaker 1: or you know, she would disappear off the face of 941 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,279 Speaker 1: the earth due to the pain or something. That sort 942 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,000 Speaker 1: of seems like it fits with the rest of her 943 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:29,359 Speaker 1: life because the rest of her life was so sort 944 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,440 Speaker 1: of mythical, and then she dies in this way that 945 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,480 Speaker 1: like tens of thousands of people die every year, and 946 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,879 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, it's like common, you can And when 947 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,040 Speaker 1: we talked about in the episode like where the idea 948 00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:42,480 Speaker 1: was like, it's isn't it weird that she died in 949 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,320 Speaker 1: a car accident, you know, with this timing, etcetera or something, 950 00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,920 Speaker 1: And it's like, it's not weird because people die in 951 00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,719 Speaker 1: car accidents constantly in this country, like constantly and inevitably 952 00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 1: it's going to happen to some famous people. Yeah, exactly, 953 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,560 Speaker 1: it's like statistically the least weird, and all the other 954 00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,560 Speaker 1: countries too, by the way, in the world. Sorry, yeah, 955 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,239 Speaker 1: I was gonna make a bring up a point that 956 00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,880 Speaker 1: you made on the your podcast, which is so brilliant 957 00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,440 Speaker 1: that I find myself echoing it almost constantly, that we 958 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:21,440 Speaker 1: think that significant events have to have significant causes. I 959 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,080 Speaker 1: think you brought that up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the the 960 00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,520 Speaker 1: idea that, like, because her death had such a massive 961 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,399 Speaker 1: effect on everyone, it seems like the cause also should 962 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,600 Speaker 1: be massive. Yeah. And then you look at the actual 963 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,120 Speaker 1: factors behind it, and there's basically three main factors that 964 00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:42,240 Speaker 1: the the driver of the car was drunk, he was speeding, 965 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:43,799 Speaker 1: he was going a hundred and ten miles an hour 966 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,759 Speaker 1: when he went into the tunnel, and Diana and Dodi 967 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,440 Speaker 1: were not wearing their seatbelts. And if any one of 968 00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,720 Speaker 1: those things was different, there's a chance that they wouldn't 969 00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:53,680 Speaker 1: have crashed or they would have lived. But you take 970 00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,200 Speaker 1: all three of those factors and put them together, and 971 00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,719 Speaker 1: it's just like a very normal kind of crash. And 972 00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:03,279 Speaker 1: then and isn't it like the tunnel itself, like it 973 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,880 Speaker 1: just had this little like dip in, this little curve 974 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,359 Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, that we're just like basically basically, yeah, 975 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 1: it was this perfect thing where the tunnel slopes downward 976 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,680 Speaker 1: and curves at the same time, and so the driver 977 00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,360 Speaker 1: was going so fast that the car almost jumped off 978 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,279 Speaker 1: of the road, and by the time the driver was 979 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:21,960 Speaker 1: able to sort of see that he was going out 980 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,880 Speaker 1: of control and turn the wheel, they had sort of 981 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:28,319 Speaker 1: settled back down onto the road, and he overcorrected and 982 00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,359 Speaker 1: then he just rams into this pole, which is how 983 00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:34,200 Speaker 1: these catastrophic plane crashes sometimes happened to We had you know, 984 00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,120 Speaker 1: it was the Dreamliners or whatever, right the what was it? 985 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,759 Speaker 1: We had a series of high profile plane crashes in 986 00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:46,040 Speaker 1: the past few years, and basically I think what was 987 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,799 Speaker 1: happening was that pilots were overcorrecting because the software was 988 00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,359 Speaker 1: malfunctioning and telling them that they were in a nosedive. Yeah, 989 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,359 Speaker 1: and they were overcorrecting for that, and just you know, yeah, 990 00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,399 Speaker 1: over correction errors. Like it just it's so and it's 991 00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,080 Speaker 1: I mean, don't you think that it's like really upsetting 992 00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,440 Speaker 1: to realize that someone is not just mortal, but like 993 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,000 Speaker 1: that mortal. Yeah, they're just sort of in the blink 994 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,399 Speaker 1: of an eye, and like a few, like a few 995 00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,840 Speaker 1: bad decisions happened. And this guy was like I always 996 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,160 Speaker 1: thought he was like a little drunk, like he'd had 997 00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,040 Speaker 1: some wine or something, but he'd had like several scotches 998 00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,680 Speaker 1: or something. He was three times the legal limit. He 999 00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,759 Speaker 1: was like super drunk, and he hadn't eaten all day, 1000 00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:29,319 Speaker 1: and he was taking medication that amplified the effect of 1001 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,719 Speaker 1: the alcohol. I mean, he was very impaired. And you 1002 00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:35,160 Speaker 1: get into the details of this in your podcast. Was 1003 00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,560 Speaker 1: anyone more interested in like the specifics? I think that's 1004 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,000 Speaker 1: a wonderful source. You also go into the fact that like, 1005 00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:45,200 Speaker 1: he wasn't an actual driver. He said he was like 1006 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,120 Speaker 1: the head of security. He wasn't the driver. And the 1007 00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,000 Speaker 1: main thing to me is most of the conspiracy theories 1008 00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,640 Speaker 1: are around this tunnel that you know, they flashed a 1009 00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:55,640 Speaker 1: light in the tunnel that blinded him and then he 1010 00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,880 Speaker 1: swerved the wheel, or there was a motorcyclist in the tunnel, whatever, 1011 00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:01,719 Speaker 1: And they thing to know is that there was no 1012 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,560 Speaker 1: reason to expect that they would be in that tunnel. 1013 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,040 Speaker 1: If you look at the hotel where they were leaving 1014 00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,560 Speaker 1: and the apartment that they were going to, there is 1015 00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,839 Speaker 1: a straight line from one place to another, and it's 1016 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,320 Speaker 1: not the tunnel that they went in. But the traffic 1017 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:16,920 Speaker 1: was so bad on the schams Aliz that they had 1018 00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,799 Speaker 1: to take a different route. But Paris is like a 1019 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:24,359 Speaker 1: winding mess of hundreds of streets, right, So so even 1020 00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:25,799 Speaker 1: if you knew that they weren't going to take the 1021 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:29,719 Speaker 1: Charm's Elise, there's forty fifty different routes they could have 1022 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,440 Speaker 1: taken to Doughty's apartment. So even if you were sort 1023 00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,160 Speaker 1: of the royal family and you were trying to murder 1024 00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,520 Speaker 1: Princess Diana, there's no way you would know that they 1025 00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:40,359 Speaker 1: would have taken that route. There's no way you could 1026 00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:44,279 Speaker 1: ever have planned for this, and there's just there's also 1027 00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,160 Speaker 1: people have talked about how it's just really bad to 1028 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,439 Speaker 1: try to kill somebody in a car because you can't 1029 00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,879 Speaker 1: expect what the driver is going to do. Like, there's 1030 00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,240 Speaker 1: no reason to think that flashing a light in somebody's 1031 00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,839 Speaker 1: eyes would result in a fatal car accident. It would 1032 00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,000 Speaker 1: just be like, oh, it's annoying, and then it's okay, 1033 00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:01,680 Speaker 1: can you can you go to the basic conspiracy theories, 1034 00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,320 Speaker 1: because like there's the light flashing, and then there's like, general, 1035 00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,279 Speaker 1: the royal family did it, General the paparazzi did it, 1036 00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,200 Speaker 1: and then I'm sure a small slice of like the 1037 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:15,759 Speaker 1: Clintons did it. Yeah, Hillary Clinton, Diana, as we all know, 1038 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,080 Speaker 1: I piggyback down that I just have one sort of 1039 00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,120 Speaker 1: additional question is why would the Royal family want to 1040 00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:26,279 Speaker 1: kill her at this point? The main reason that I mean, 1041 00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:28,319 Speaker 1: it's actually a very sad story that one of the 1042 00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:32,680 Speaker 1: main purveyors of the conspiracies is Doti Faed's father, who 1043 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,600 Speaker 1: has like a very sort of justified beef with the 1044 00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,200 Speaker 1: Royal family and with the British establishment. His claim has 1045 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,919 Speaker 1: always been that they're super Islamophobic, which like they are 1046 00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,600 Speaker 1: like as a general principle, like yes, these are not 1047 00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,640 Speaker 1: people who are like super into diversity in the country, 1048 00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,600 Speaker 1: and so he has felt sort of shut out of 1049 00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,960 Speaker 1: the British establishment, which he was, and so he has 1050 00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:58,160 Speaker 1: built up even though he owns Herod's right, even if 1051 00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 1: he were white, like he probably would be like a 1052 00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:06,279 Speaker 1: big bagre baiting, you know. Yeah, in the country it's 1053 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,160 Speaker 1: wrapped up in like wealth stuff and like old stuff 1054 00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,080 Speaker 1: that there were deals that he didn't get and there 1055 00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,160 Speaker 1: was like they never approved his visa, which like genuinely 1056 00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:16,160 Speaker 1: is both that they just kind of left it at 1057 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,440 Speaker 1: the back of the pile for decades. So he has 1058 00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:22,000 Speaker 1: legitimate grievances, but he builds up this idea that they 1059 00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:26,080 Speaker 1: didn't want her marrying a Muslim and that she may 1060 00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,800 Speaker 1: have been pregnant with Doughty Alfa Yette's baby, and so 1061 00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:30,960 Speaker 1: there was gonna be this like royal baby who was 1062 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,480 Speaker 1: the sort of half brother of the future King of 1063 00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,120 Speaker 1: England who was going to be a Muslim, and they 1064 00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,200 Speaker 1: couldn't handle that and they freaked out. But at the time, 1065 00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:42,640 Speaker 1: there was no actual evidence that Diana was going to 1066 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:46,560 Speaker 1: marry Doughty. There was no evidence whatsoever that she was pregnant. 1067 00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,840 Speaker 1: The only evidence that she was pregnant was somebody took 1068 00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:50,760 Speaker 1: a photo of her in a bathing suit and she 1069 00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:54,920 Speaker 1: like has a tummy. She is a middle aged woman, 1070 00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,120 Speaker 1: Like she has like a little bit of a tummy 1071 00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,520 Speaker 1: in this photo, and they're like, she's probably It's like, 1072 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,040 Speaker 1: that's that's it. That's your evidence that she's pregnant. It's 1073 00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:09,120 Speaker 1: like one photo every single Star magazine, every celebrity is 1074 00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:13,000 Speaker 1: pregnant at every given moment. I also like how you 1075 00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,080 Speaker 1: can speculate that that's evidence of someone like growing more 1076 00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:20,320 Speaker 1: comfortable with their body and successfully, you know, being on 1077 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:25,560 Speaker 1: the road to recovery from an eating disorder, like she's pregnant. Yeah, 1078 00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:28,440 Speaker 1: So the sort of the that's like the arth theory 1079 00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,640 Speaker 1: of this. The Royal family wanted her out of the picture, 1080 00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:34,080 Speaker 1: But it just doesn't make any sense, and it especially 1081 00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,919 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense given that they killed her on that 1082 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,640 Speaker 1: day because Dotie Fayette had started telling people that he 1083 00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:42,480 Speaker 1: was going to ask her to marry him, but the 1084 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,520 Speaker 1: first person he told was that morning. So if the 1085 00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:47,440 Speaker 1: Royal family was really afraid that she was going to 1086 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,520 Speaker 1: marry Doughty al Fayette, they somehow would have put together 1087 00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:55,840 Speaker 1: this mastermind plan in like six hours. And they can't 1088 00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:57,840 Speaker 1: even plan a fox hunt in less than a month, 1089 00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure. And they're bad at a like relate, they're 1090 00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:06,200 Speaker 1: bad at things the things. Yes, so you know there's 1091 00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:08,400 Speaker 1: a million I mean I read two books about it, 1092 00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:12,640 Speaker 1: Like you can go into all of the specifics. There's 1093 00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:14,880 Speaker 1: like a guy who was driving a Fiat that night 1094 00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,160 Speaker 1: who might have been a paparazzi, But it's like they 1095 00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:19,560 Speaker 1: don't add up to anything because it's just like, well, 1096 00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:21,640 Speaker 1: what's the actual theory that somehow they knew that he 1097 00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:24,040 Speaker 1: was going to take this route. They faked the blood 1098 00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:27,360 Speaker 1: alcohol content of the driver, They convinced Diana not to 1099 00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:29,800 Speaker 1: wear a seat belt, Like if you try to put 1100 00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:32,600 Speaker 1: it in chronological order what the theory actually requires, Like 1101 00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:34,800 Speaker 1: you just can't make it plausible. It's like a lot 1102 00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:38,240 Speaker 1: of the O. J. Truther theories. You're like, individually, these 1103 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:42,000 Speaker 1: elements could have happened, maybe, but it's very it's like 1104 00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,000 Speaker 1: impossible for me to believe in a world where all 1105 00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,000 Speaker 1: of them happen in sequence, and where people actually managed 1106 00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:50,880 Speaker 1: to plant behind the scenes. Yeah, exactly, in like six 1107 00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:54,200 Speaker 1: hours right there, they're swapping out vials of blood. There's 1108 00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:58,120 Speaker 1: all kinds of telepathic communication happening in these scenarios, people 1109 00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:02,720 Speaker 1: like just sort of unspeakingly, uncommunicating Lee all carry out 1110 01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:06,400 Speaker 1: plans with maximum efficiency and discretion in a way that 1111 01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:10,760 Speaker 1: never happens anywhere else. And you also have to imagine 1112 01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:12,720 Speaker 1: that if they have the power, if the Royal family 1113 01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:16,959 Speaker 1: had the power to orchestrate this massive and immediate conspiracy coup, 1114 01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:19,640 Speaker 1: they would also have the power just to like have 1115 01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,920 Speaker 1: made Charles more likable. Like, if they have, if they 1116 01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:27,320 Speaker 1: have the infrastructure to orchestrate this elaborate fake death, use 1117 01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,920 Speaker 1: that manpower. They should have just used that manpower to 1118 01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:33,680 Speaker 1: like make people like Charles a little bit more, to 1119 01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:36,240 Speaker 1: make him see less of like a little bit of 1120 01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:39,840 Speaker 1: a wet blanket, right, they could have blocked the panorama interview, 1121 01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,600 Speaker 1: like they could have stopped the publication of this tell 1122 01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:45,280 Speaker 1: all biography. Like, there's many smaller steps they could have 1123 01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:50,560 Speaker 1: actually to make her murder to make her look like 1124 01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:56,320 Speaker 1: less likable also like that. I mean, her death is 1125 01:00:56,320 --> 01:01:00,320 Speaker 1: is a human tragedy obviously, but on the largest scale, 1126 01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,800 Speaker 1: it made people love Diana more than they had. That's 1127 01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,280 Speaker 1: the thing, Yeah, exactly, which they surely would have foreseen. 1128 01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,840 Speaker 1: If they can arrange like a seven hour murder, conspiracy 1129 01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:13,480 Speaker 1: and two languages, they probably could have foreseen that this 1130 01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:17,680 Speaker 1: would make her more popular eventually. Yeah. So you know, 1131 01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:22,920 Speaker 1: with Diana having been dead for oh god, over two decades, 1132 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,000 Speaker 1: where do you think her legacy sort of stands now? 1133 01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:30,520 Speaker 1: Just a near professional private opinions. I mean, I feel 1134 01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:35,560 Speaker 1: like the Crown has left people with a chance to 1135 01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,680 Speaker 1: feel like they have a firsthand experience of kind of 1136 01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:43,680 Speaker 1: the compressed storyline of her her marriage and life and 1137 01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:49,480 Speaker 1: divorce and death. Um, and it seems as if, you know, 1138 01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:53,520 Speaker 1: that's giving people a new access point with which to 1139 01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:56,880 Speaker 1: love her, Like I think that like Marie Antoinette or 1140 01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:00,600 Speaker 1: any number of figures who have endured a sespecially after 1141 01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:05,400 Speaker 1: an untimely passing. I think there is she was able 1142 01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:10,200 Speaker 1: to interact with the press or with the forms of 1143 01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,800 Speaker 1: media that recorded her life in a way that I 1144 01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,480 Speaker 1: think gave people at the time and continues to give 1145 01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:17,600 Speaker 1: them a feeling like they have some real connection with 1146 01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,120 Speaker 1: who she was. Like, I think what made her great 1147 01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:22,120 Speaker 1: at what she did was that, you know, despite all 1148 01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:26,400 Speaker 1: the performance, despite the great pain of her life, a 1149 01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:28,680 Speaker 1: lot of the time, I feel like she did I 1150 01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:30,960 Speaker 1: hate to use this word because it's just been it's 1151 01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:34,520 Speaker 1: so gross now in the age of influencer culture, but 1152 01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:37,200 Speaker 1: like she kind of maybe was one of the people 1153 01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:42,880 Speaker 1: who helped invent authenticity as we know it today. M hm, Sarah, 1154 01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,800 Speaker 1: do you think I am trying to come up with 1155 01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:50,880 Speaker 1: the most articulate way to ask that people tend to 1156 01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,120 Speaker 1: fundamentally hate women in power for a variety of what 1157 01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,080 Speaker 1: Do you think that part of the reason Diana was 1158 01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:04,000 Speaker 1: so beloved was because she was vulnerable and and tragic? 1159 01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,240 Speaker 1: Do you think there was there was a victim aspect 1160 01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:10,320 Speaker 1: to why she was able to remain so beloved And 1161 01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:13,000 Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that. Yeah, yeah, I 1162 01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:14,920 Speaker 1: I mean I would say yes. And I feel like 1163 01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:17,920 Speaker 1: my first memory of thinking critically about Diana was listening 1164 01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:20,760 Speaker 1: to the version of Candle in the Wind that was 1165 01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:24,640 Speaker 1: rewritten and tribute to her, and then realizing soon after 1166 01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:27,240 Speaker 1: that that was a rewritten version of a song originally 1167 01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:29,880 Speaker 1: about Marilyn Monroe, and I was like, that's kind of odd. 1168 01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,400 Speaker 1: I just think that's odd to have some other girls 1169 01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:38,360 Speaker 1: song rewritten for you. Um I I don't know why 1170 01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,400 Speaker 1: I'm bothered by that. I just am. I know it's 1171 01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:43,320 Speaker 1: hard to write a new song, but um, it just 1172 01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:46,160 Speaker 1: feel but it does feel like it expresses this thing 1173 01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:49,439 Speaker 1: of like I mean, it's like Mike and I guess 1174 01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:51,640 Speaker 1: recorded on Miss America. And I keep thinking of that 1175 01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:53,440 Speaker 1: because a lot of the themes are the same, like 1176 01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:57,800 Speaker 1: she must be a virgin, she must be you know, 1177 01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:01,720 Speaker 1: this age and and this you know, all these other qualifiers. 1178 01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,080 Speaker 1: And we were talking about how it feels like it 1179 01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:08,400 Speaker 1: feels to me like when you are anointed and crowned 1180 01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:12,400 Speaker 1: Miss America, like you were the human carrier of the 1181 01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:15,560 Speaker 1: spirit of Miss America, and then you know, you show 1182 01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:17,480 Speaker 1: up the next year and give the crown away, and 1183 01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:20,640 Speaker 1: then your little husk um crumbles and blows away in 1184 01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:24,200 Speaker 1: the wind and falls into the beach on Atlantic City 1185 01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:25,920 Speaker 1: and is washed away by the surf, and then you 1186 01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:30,560 Speaker 1: become a mermaid. Yeah. I think that's what happens, and 1187 01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,240 Speaker 1: that's why you never see them again. But just this, 1188 01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:38,400 Speaker 1: it feels like that song being kind of rewritten and 1189 01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:41,520 Speaker 1: reused fits with this idea that we have a society 1190 01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:45,920 Speaker 1: that just consumes women and that we somehow apologize for 1191 01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,840 Speaker 1: it by selectively mourning some of them. Um, and that 1192 01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,600 Speaker 1: Maryland was one who was consumed by the fame machine, 1193 01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:55,640 Speaker 1: and Princess Diana became, you know, another and it was 1194 01:04:55,720 --> 01:05:00,080 Speaker 1: just she was consumed by more you know, the O 1195 01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:04,600 Speaker 1: family and British tabloids than by the Hollywood treadmill or 1196 01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:08,720 Speaker 1: whatever it was. And her presence is one that I 1197 01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:14,840 Speaker 1: think carries us potentially into really meaningful experiences of thoughtfulness 1198 01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:18,120 Speaker 1: and empathy. But she's also very accessible because she is 1199 01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:21,479 Speaker 1: kind of poured into the mold that we are most 1200 01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:26,200 Speaker 1: conditioned to find sympathetic and lovable, partly because you know, 1201 01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:30,600 Speaker 1: there's there's nothing less intimidating a woman who's already dead, 1202 01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,800 Speaker 1: Like there's a reason why so many of our beloved 1203 01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:37,360 Speaker 1: young women in society are murder victims, you know, they're 1204 01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,400 Speaker 1: They're not very uppity, are they. And it's also like 1205 01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:43,360 Speaker 1: the media then loves this idea of like, oh, we 1206 01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:48,000 Speaker 1: all killed her. Yeah, god, the maya culpa that the 1207 01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,160 Speaker 1: self flagellation of the maya culpa, I think is an 1208 01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:54,479 Speaker 1: instinct that everyone kind of likes to indulge in. Let's 1209 01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:58,520 Speaker 1: not blame the very specific tabloids and very specific editors 1210 01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:00,680 Speaker 1: who were like buying photos of her that were taken 1211 01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:03,280 Speaker 1: at night and clearly invasive, Like no, no, no, Let's 1212 01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:05,520 Speaker 1: not blame the people who actually made decisions. Let's blame 1213 01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:12,800 Speaker 1: everyone who was like no Jenkins, you know, let's blame 1214 01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:16,080 Speaker 1: literally everybody instead of like the eight people who actually 1215 01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:18,280 Speaker 1: made her life to it was all of us. It 1216 01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:22,920 Speaker 1: was society. I think my big thing with Diana is, 1217 01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:25,480 Speaker 1: you know, you can talk about the authenticity in this 1218 01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:27,760 Speaker 1: sort of clinical way, but you know, one of the 1219 01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:31,200 Speaker 1: things we mentioned on the show was that diagnoses of 1220 01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:35,000 Speaker 1: bulimia I believe quadrupled in Britain in the early es 1221 01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:37,479 Speaker 1: once she started talking about this, because people were finally 1222 01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:40,000 Speaker 1: getting diagnosed, people were finally talking about it. And I 1223 01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:42,200 Speaker 1: think to me, as somebody who lived in Europe for 1224 01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:45,480 Speaker 1: eleven years. I lived in Britain. There's a huge problem 1225 01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:49,840 Speaker 1: with sort of official, aristocratic European society that does not 1226 01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:52,439 Speaker 1: talk about stuff. And this was one of the things 1227 01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:54,440 Speaker 1: that Diana really struggled with, that she would go to 1228 01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:56,240 Speaker 1: these dinner parties and you're not allowed to talk about 1229 01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:58,600 Speaker 1: anything real, You're not allowed to reveal anything of yourself. 1230 01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:02,000 Speaker 1: You just make this excrew cruciating, superficial small talk for 1231 01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:05,120 Speaker 1: hours and hours and it never ends. And I think 1232 01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:06,960 Speaker 1: one of the things that she really did was break 1233 01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:11,080 Speaker 1: that habit and point out that, like, this isn't serving anybody, Like, 1234 01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:13,560 Speaker 1: who is it helping for us not to talk about 1235 01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:16,440 Speaker 1: what we're struggling with. Why would we do this to ourselves? 1236 01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:19,200 Speaker 1: Why do we raise our kids this way? Right? And 1237 01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:21,800 Speaker 1: so I just think that it's a model that the 1238 01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:25,160 Speaker 1: solution to the things that Diana struggled with in her 1239 01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:27,520 Speaker 1: life is not to push them under the rug. It's 1240 01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:29,720 Speaker 1: to bring them out into the light and talk about 1241 01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:32,360 Speaker 1: how you're not a broken person for struggling with an 1242 01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:34,720 Speaker 1: eating disorder. You're not a broken person for like still 1243 01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:37,640 Speaker 1: dealing with the trauma of your weird cold upbringing and 1244 01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:40,920 Speaker 1: you're terrible sandwiches, Like you're allowed to talk about this stuff, 1245 01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:44,080 Speaker 1: and so I just think if there's a model, it's 1246 01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:48,120 Speaker 1: really like bringing things into the light and talking about 1247 01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:51,120 Speaker 1: yourself as a whole person, that you are beautiful and 1248 01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:53,160 Speaker 1: you wear these outfits and everything, Like you can talk 1249 01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:55,400 Speaker 1: about the sparkly stuff, but you can also talk about 1250 01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:57,960 Speaker 1: the dark stuff and that doesn't take away And one 1251 01:07:57,960 --> 01:08:01,400 Speaker 1: thing doesn't take away from the other's beautifully said. And 1252 01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:03,920 Speaker 1: I also want to go on the record finally and say, 1253 01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:07,200 Speaker 1: like I reject the dichotomy that people who are interested 1254 01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:12,920 Speaker 1: in like fashion and and uh clothes are automatically frivolous, 1255 01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:17,400 Speaker 1: Like yeah, like I think her her fashion is is 1256 01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:21,599 Speaker 1: interesting and and worth as worth talking about as Prince 1257 01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:27,280 Speaker 1: Charles's non expertise on Welsh economic policy. Great men are 1258 01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:31,920 Speaker 1: interested in sports. There is nothing more frivolous than like 1259 01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:34,880 Speaker 1: knowing sports statistics. Like you're not going to talk shit 1260 01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:36,920 Speaker 1: on somebody who knows the names of a couple of 1261 01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:39,559 Speaker 1: designers if you can tell me what like cal Ripken, 1262 01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:44,000 Speaker 1: hit in four or whatever. Sorry, it's all frivolous. You 1263 01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:46,479 Speaker 1: don't get to talk ship on other people's frivolous stuff. Also, 1264 01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:49,080 Speaker 1: I gotta say, I don't know how men look in England. 1265 01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:53,479 Speaker 1: Maybe they look great, who knows. In America men look awful, 1266 01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:56,479 Speaker 1: and so many of them could just learn how to 1267 01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:59,840 Speaker 1: dress better, just a little bit, just five to ten 1268 01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:03,400 Speaker 1: were sent better because like, quality of men's wear is 1269 01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:08,120 Speaker 1: a beautiful thing. Like men can dress gorgeously. Like watch 1270 01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:11,080 Speaker 1: Robert de Niro and Casino. If you want my point 1271 01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:13,200 Speaker 1: to be probably proved to you. So I have the 1272 01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:15,160 Speaker 1: movie I thought you were going to bring up. I 1273 01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:19,320 Speaker 1: love the best dressed men. I might think. Listen, Robert 1274 01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:21,840 Speaker 1: de Niro has more costume changes in that movie than 1275 01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:25,439 Speaker 1: Sharon Stone, and I think he's probably accessible on the 1276 01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:29,719 Speaker 1: scale of masculinity. But he wears like beautiful loud suits. 1277 01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:33,400 Speaker 1: But the point is that, like, men could look so 1278 01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:36,160 Speaker 1: much better and have so much of the passive power 1279 01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:39,920 Speaker 1: that comes from looking good, but they're just terrified of it. 1280 01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:43,160 Speaker 1: And it's hilarious to me because you could just you know, 1281 01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:46,320 Speaker 1: it's it's right there in front of you, but you're 1282 01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:49,439 Speaker 1: afraid of taking it. And I argue, if you're rich, 1283 01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:52,360 Speaker 1: it's pretty easy to be hot. Oh yeah, you just 1284 01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:54,519 Speaker 1: hire a couple of people, you're like, tell me, give 1285 01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:58,600 Speaker 1: me a skincare routine, dress me, give me a capsule wardrobe. 1286 01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:01,680 Speaker 1: Thank you? Ye. So on that note, before we go, 1287 01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:03,840 Speaker 1: I do want to ask each of you what your 1288 01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:08,880 Speaker 1: favorite iconic Diana fashion moment is. Do you have a 1289 01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:12,519 Speaker 1: favorite Diana look that comes to mind? I know what 1290 01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:16,400 Speaker 1: I was going to say, do you? I think you do? Yeah? Okay, 1291 01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:19,519 Speaker 1: So my favorite look is that picture you showed me 1292 01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:23,000 Speaker 1: Mike where she's wearing mom jeans and a T shirt. Yeah, 1293 01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:30,000 Speaker 1: I knew, you know what was that? I think I 1294 01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:32,960 Speaker 1: said Duluth. But either way, when was that photo taken? 1295 01:10:34,479 --> 01:10:38,400 Speaker 1: That was right after the divorce, so I believe ninety four. Yeah, 1296 01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:40,720 Speaker 1: And and of course these weren't mom jeans at the time. 1297 01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:43,360 Speaker 1: These were very fashionable genes of the kind that you 1298 01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:46,760 Speaker 1: know Meg Ryan was wearing in. But she's wearing like 1299 01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:49,880 Speaker 1: high cut, you know, just like but it is it's 1300 01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:52,080 Speaker 1: like a very like Meg Ryan kind of a look. 1301 01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:54,760 Speaker 1: It's like, these are my jeans, I am a mom. 1302 01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:56,720 Speaker 1: And then like you know, and I'm sure these are 1303 01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:59,320 Speaker 1: all made by designers. And then a T shirt with 1304 01:10:59,439 --> 01:11:03,280 Speaker 1: stars on it, and she just looks like she could 1305 01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:07,360 Speaker 1: be the former Princess of Wales. Or she could be 1306 01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:13,200 Speaker 1: like the prettiest mom in Duluth, Minnesota, like picking up 1307 01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:15,960 Speaker 1: her kids from gymnasts. If I want to google, if 1308 01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:17,800 Speaker 1: I want to google this picture, what do you think? 1309 01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:22,639 Speaker 1: I what's the best most effective search? Mom jeans? I think, honestly, 1310 01:11:22,720 --> 01:11:26,799 Speaker 1: Princess Diana, mom jeans. Oh yeah, yeah, Diana mom jeans 1311 01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:29,880 Speaker 1: star T shirt and she's like walking downstairs. It's a 1312 01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:33,760 Speaker 1: white T shirt. Yeah, yeah, totally. She looks like she 1313 01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:37,320 Speaker 1: could be at the Mall of America. Yes, love that 1314 01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:41,240 Speaker 1: in the best possible way. Yeah, I look, I wish 1315 01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:43,360 Speaker 1: I was in Minnesota right now. I am a huge 1316 01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:46,439 Speaker 1: fan of Duluth Wine moms, and she looks better than 1317 01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:50,840 Speaker 1: any of us could trying to be a Duluth Wine mom. Yeah. 1318 01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:53,519 Speaker 1: And just that she's like that, I mean, I mean, 1319 01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:57,240 Speaker 1: I know that mom jeans has acquired a pejorative connotation. 1320 01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:59,880 Speaker 1: I think that's unfair, and I feel as if like 1321 01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:02,400 Speaker 1: this is a picture of her being a mom, which 1322 01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:04,840 Speaker 1: is an opportunity she was really deprived of for a 1323 01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:08,000 Speaker 1: lot of her marriage. That is a good segue. I'm 1324 01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:11,639 Speaker 1: I'm superseding you, Michael and doing mine now. A look 1325 01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:17,080 Speaker 1: that I love because it feels very twenty twenty or um. 1326 01:12:17,120 --> 01:12:19,439 Speaker 1: Also sort of a mom jean, like a like a 1327 01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:24,160 Speaker 1: light washed jean, boots, brown boots, a crew neck sweatshirt, 1328 01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:27,519 Speaker 1: a blazer, and a hat. Oh I know the photo, 1329 01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:29,720 Speaker 1: it's like a balloon on her shirt. I think she's 1330 01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:33,320 Speaker 1: also with William the British Lung Foundation. Oh yeah, there 1331 01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:37,600 Speaker 1: we go, British Lung Foundation. She just looks very sporty 1332 01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:40,200 Speaker 1: and like she casual in a way that I wish 1333 01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:44,320 Speaker 1: I could emulate. And it feels very modern. I think, 1334 01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:49,439 Speaker 1: even like I was gonna say, Hilaria ulan Um, who's 1335 01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:53,599 Speaker 1: Justin Bieber's wife, Haley Haley Bieber. I think Haley Bieber 1336 01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:56,360 Speaker 1: recordlated some of these looks for like a fashion sir. 1337 01:12:57,280 --> 01:13:02,479 Speaker 1: Looks white sweatshirt, So she's wearing a white sweatshirt under 1338 01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:05,240 Speaker 1: a blazer with a baseball cap on. Like this is 1339 01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:10,080 Speaker 1: like Billy Crystal at a baseball game. Almost like but yeah, 1340 01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:14,240 Speaker 1: and it's like you know, yeah, she like she knew 1341 01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:16,760 Speaker 1: how to put items together. He didn't. She. She was 1342 01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:18,920 Speaker 1: also really good in the look of like a crew 1343 01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:23,599 Speaker 1: neck sweatshirt with bike shorts. She looked really good doing that. 1344 01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:26,800 Speaker 1: I think this is such a cliche, but mine would 1345 01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:30,240 Speaker 1: be the infamous revenge dress. Oh and please describe the 1346 01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:34,559 Speaker 1: context of their revenge dress. This is why I think 1347 01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:36,639 Speaker 1: it's so important, Because I don't know that much about fashion. 1348 01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:39,479 Speaker 1: I can't say much about the actual dress itself, but 1349 01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:42,160 Speaker 1: it's such a metaphor for the way that women can 1350 01:13:42,280 --> 01:13:46,280 Speaker 1: use fashion as power. So the entire thing was Prince 1351 01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:49,160 Speaker 1: Charles was on this sort of pr kick. He was 1352 01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:51,720 Speaker 1: doing a documentary for the BBC that was supposed to 1353 01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:54,679 Speaker 1: like humanize him and make him seem cool and down 1354 01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:56,320 Speaker 1: to earth and authentic. And I have seen it and 1355 01:13:56,320 --> 01:13:58,479 Speaker 1: it does not mean any of those things. But he 1356 01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:01,759 Speaker 1: was convinced that it would. And so Diana had gotten 1357 01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:05,080 Speaker 1: this invitation to go to the Serpentine Gallery and she 1358 01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:07,360 Speaker 1: had turned it down whatever, I'm busy. That night, she 1359 01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:10,439 Speaker 1: finds out this BBC documentary is airing, and she's like, 1360 01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:13,000 Speaker 1: on second thought, I am going to go. And she 1361 01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:16,800 Speaker 1: shows up in this cracker jack knockout black dress with 1362 01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:19,920 Speaker 1: like shoulders out and this big necklace, and she just 1363 01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:23,840 Speaker 1: looks like a billion bucks. And she did this deliberately 1364 01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:27,479 Speaker 1: to knock Prince Charles off the front pages. She wanted 1365 01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:30,439 Speaker 1: to take the nation's attention away from him and put 1366 01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:32,639 Speaker 1: it on her, and it worked. All of the front 1367 01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:36,200 Speaker 1: pages the next day are like knock out Diana, and 1368 01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:39,200 Speaker 1: Prince Charles is on page seventeen, just like his dumb 1369 01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:44,800 Speaker 1: Welsh speech and she's like yeah, words, yeah, and it's 1370 01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:47,120 Speaker 1: like I can still do this, and I just think 1371 01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:50,280 Speaker 1: it's like it's such a moment of her understanding herself 1372 01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:52,360 Speaker 1: as a symbol in ways that she didn't at the 1373 01:14:52,439 --> 01:14:54,439 Speaker 1: beginning of the marriage, in ways that she didn't at 1374 01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:56,720 Speaker 1: the beginning of her career. She's like, this is the 1375 01:14:56,760 --> 01:14:58,800 Speaker 1: way that I can communicate with the public, This is 1376 01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:01,160 Speaker 1: the way that I can get my message across. Sometimes 1377 01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:03,720 Speaker 1: it's literally just me showing up to something in a 1378 01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:06,640 Speaker 1: dress that is enough and so to me, it's just 1379 01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:10,240 Speaker 1: such a confidence moment her totally understanding and using the 1380 01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:13,920 Speaker 1: power that people ascribe to her gave to her. Yes, 1381 01:15:15,080 --> 01:15:16,559 Speaker 1: and it's so rare to see a woman do that, 1382 01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:19,200 Speaker 1: and sort of, you know, women throughout her life she 1383 01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:22,479 Speaker 1: was criticized for being frivolous, like oh, she's always shopping 1384 01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:24,200 Speaker 1: and she's doing all this fashion stuff, and it's like 1385 01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:28,200 Speaker 1: that's literally her job. It's absurd to criticize her for 1386 01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:33,840 Speaker 1: understanding her job, Like she achieved peace in the Falklands. Yes, exactly. 1387 01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:35,600 Speaker 1: And she's going to these events where she has to 1388 01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:38,840 Speaker 1: change into different formal clothes three or four times a day, 1389 01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:41,000 Speaker 1: so that requires a lot of shopping, Like you just 1390 01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:42,880 Speaker 1: have to have a lot of dresses for that. Also, 1391 01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:46,040 Speaker 1: that's the thing that people were writing about her and 1392 01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:48,360 Speaker 1: talking about her a lot in interviews. No one was 1393 01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:51,000 Speaker 1: asking her her take on the Falklands because she's not 1394 01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:53,920 Speaker 1: an expert on the falk List. She's like this just 1395 01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:57,240 Speaker 1: this random woman basically shows up at things. It's fine. 1396 01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:00,960 Speaker 1: So this was a rare moment of a woman in 1397 01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:05,080 Speaker 1: public life actually using that kind of scrutiny to send 1398 01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:07,719 Speaker 1: a message. And it's just like a nice little power moment. 1399 01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:10,639 Speaker 1: I love that. I think that is a perfect place 1400 01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:13,920 Speaker 1: to end. Sarah Michael, thank you so much for joining me. 1401 01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:16,200 Speaker 1: Where can people find you on the internet if they're 1402 01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:19,880 Speaker 1: inclined to hear more of your wisdom and perspective. Our 1403 01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:22,559 Speaker 1: podcast is on all of your major podcast apps. It's 1404 01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:25,320 Speaker 1: called You're Wrong About And you can find Sarah also 1405 01:16:25,479 --> 01:16:28,599 Speaker 1: on Why Our Dads, which on your telephone find Mike 1406 01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:32,840 Speaker 1: also on maintenance phase. You know. Yeah, and so you've 1407 01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:35,880 Speaker 1: talked about dr Oz recently. I've talked about the Dark 1408 01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:41,080 Speaker 1: Night recently. We have a few other interests sometimes, Yes, 1409 01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:45,839 Speaker 1: perfect and I think both dads and uh. The public 1410 01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:49,960 Speaker 1: obsession with weight and bodies also feeds into the Diana issue. 1411 01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:52,720 Speaker 1: So this is all it. She had a dad and 1412 01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:56,680 Speaker 1: she was on diets. You well, thank you so much 1413 01:16:56,760 --> 01:16:59,840 Speaker 1: for joining me. H, have a have a good one. 1414 01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:02,200 Speaker 1: How do people sign off of these things? I'm usually 1415 01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:05,960 Speaker 1: talking alone to myself in a closet. Fairly well, Dana, 1416 01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:11,400 Speaker 1: bless you, God, Bless Princess Diana, Bless bless us everyone, 1417 01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:23,120 Speaker 1: everyone Perfect. Noble Blood is a production of I Heart 1418 01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:26,479 Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Monkey. The show 1419 01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:29,360 Speaker 1: is written and hosted by Dana Schwartz and produced by 1420 01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:34,240 Speaker 1: Aaron Mankey, Matt Frederick, Alex Williams, and Trevor Young. Noble 1421 01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:37,280 Speaker 1: Blood is on social media at Noble Blood Tales, and 1422 01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:39,400 Speaker 1: you can learn more about the show over at Noble 1423 01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:42,719 Speaker 1: Blood Tales dot com. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, 1424 01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:46,479 Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1425 01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:47,960 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows,