Speaker 1: Pushing. I have this moment where I'm like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: on the I'm on air force to briefing the vice
Speaker 1: president in her private cabin and I'm about to say,
Speaker 1: that's the good stuff, man, that's the story. Away from
Speaker 1: the West Side of Detroit, Brothers, it's a long way
Speaker 1: from Dexter. I'm Khalil Jabr Muhammad. I'm Ben Austin. We
Speaker 1: are two best friends, one black, one white. I'm a
Speaker 1: historian and I'm a journalist. And this is some of
Speaker 1: my best friends are some of my best friends are like,
Speaker 1: I don't hate establishment democrats. Some of my best friends
Speaker 1: are establishment democrats. You got it. So in this show,
Speaker 1: we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a
Speaker 1: deeply divided and unequal country. And today we're going to
Speaker 1: consider the future of the US presidency. Joe Biden's getting
Speaker 1: up there in age and his vice President, Kamala Harris
Speaker 1: is next in line for the presidency. We're going to
Speaker 1: talk about who she is with someone who knows her
Speaker 1: better than any of our best friends, Jamal Simmons, who
Speaker 1: was the communication directors for Kamala Harris, and he happens
Speaker 1: to also be an old friend of ours, and listen,
Speaker 1: this is his first podcast interview since he left the
Speaker 1: White House. This is a scoop, So let's do it.
Speaker 1: Last baby's dad, so Khalil, the President of the United States,
Speaker 1: our President, Joe Biden, is eighty years old. Yes, yes, eighty,
Speaker 1: or I should say old af And my wife Danielle,
Speaker 1: was recently in Arizona to visit her uncle and aunt,
Speaker 1: and she ended up watching the State of the Union
Speaker 1: with all these eighty year olds and because you know,
Speaker 1: they're they're they're from Chicago, but they went down there
Speaker 1: to kind of like Winter's right, and so she's watching
Speaker 1: it with them, and you know, all these eighty year
Speaker 1: olds are commenting on his his age and how he looks,
Speaker 1: and whether he's had work done on his face, and
Speaker 1: like how he's moving with with my cousin who I
Speaker 1: was watching it with, whether he had botox or not,
Speaker 1: let's just name it, like, you know, look pretty clear
Speaker 1: to me, you know. And so the whole question of
Speaker 1: his age was was so even more present in that
Speaker 1: viewing for her, because um, it wasn't just how young
Speaker 1: people view him, it's it's how his actual peers view him.
Speaker 1: And you know, man, They're like, I'm not. I'm not.
Speaker 1: I'm retired. I'm not. I'm not. I don't have the
Speaker 1: biggest job in the world right now. Yeah, they're basically saying,
Speaker 1: I don't even think it's a good idea that this
Speaker 1: guy is is gearing up to maybe run for a
Speaker 1: second term. Yeah. Yeah, that's ah, that is the question, right,
Speaker 1: and so much the question that I was watching it
Speaker 1: and looking at Kamala Harris the whole time, and it's
Speaker 1: been behind him, over his right shoulder as they do,
Speaker 1: like that's how it works. Yeah, yeah, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: and I have to say, like watching her in this role,
Speaker 1: in this back half of the Biden presidency, these next
Speaker 1: two years where the Republicans have now taken majority, and
Speaker 1: she's sitting next to the speaker Kevin McCarthy as opposed
Speaker 1: to Nancy Pelosi, right, I mean, it did hit me differently.
Speaker 1: And I have to say I had a lot more
Speaker 1: pride in just seeing her in that role symbolically than
Speaker 1: I than I remember having when I watched her next
Speaker 1: to Nancy Pelosi. Um and yeah, and it had me
Speaker 1: thinking a lot about how Biden's own decision to run
Speaker 1: for a second term has huge implications for whether or
Speaker 1: not Kamala Harris will be the presumptive nominee in a
Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight race, because at that point there'll be
Speaker 1: no question she's served two years or two terms in
Speaker 1: this vice presidential role. Yeah, I mean, that's what we're
Speaker 1: going to try to unpack today. What we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about is this attention on Kamala Harris, because when
Speaker 1: you do have an eighty year old president man the
Speaker 1: vice president, it means something, right in one sense, like yeah, yeah, man,
Speaker 1: she could be president next week. That has a lot
Speaker 1: of scrutiny on her because of this. That's right, there's
Speaker 1: so much scrutiny. By the way that the New York
Speaker 1: Times ran a pretty significant story reported by some of
Speaker 1: their top political reporters who had access to the high
Speaker 1: ranking Democrats in the White House, who expressed some concern
Speaker 1: about whether or not she actually would be a liability
Speaker 1: for the ticket in twenty twenty four. You're saying, Khalil
Speaker 1: that even if she's just on the ticket as vice president,
Speaker 1: that's somehow that's a liability for Biden, like it might
Speaker 1: mean that a Trump or around the Santas the governor
Speaker 1: from Florida, they might win because because she's just even
Speaker 1: part of the ticket. Again, well, yes, and I'm saying
Speaker 1: that's what the New York Times is reporting, because she
Speaker 1: would be that much closer to potentially inheriting the presidency
Speaker 1: in light of the fact that Biden might either not
Speaker 1: make it through his term or might be incapacitated. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, just as a matter of history, this is
Speaker 1: not abstraction. The notion of someone dying in office is
Speaker 1: a very real thing, and Democrats are suggesting that she
Speaker 1: might be a liability if in fact people start calculating
Speaker 1: whether or not Joe Biden can make it through the
Speaker 1: end of his term. And so all of this makes
Speaker 1: me think, like there's such a need to assess Kamala
Speaker 1: Harris and the role she's done as Vice president and
Speaker 1: who she is and what her values are, and you know,
Speaker 1: maybe how she might govern in a much more like,
Speaker 1: you know, in a serious way, and to understand more
Speaker 1: about her because you know, so this idea of her
Speaker 1: being the VP and being, as you said, like feeling
Speaker 1: this kind of pride there's a woman of color there
Speaker 1: in this role the first time ever. Yeah, Yeah, she's
Speaker 1: a first she's a first Black woman in this role,
Speaker 1: and she's a first Asian American woman in this role.
Speaker 1: And and you know, I mean that Times article talked
Speaker 1: about some of this of sort of that the that
Speaker 1: role of her, how her race and gender plays into
Speaker 1: some of this, and even as as slights um there's
Speaker 1: this one note in there of like when she goes
Speaker 1: on these foreign trips and meets dignitaries and you know,
Speaker 1: the vice presidents of other countries, they try to introduce
Speaker 1: her set up meetings with the first ladies of these
Speaker 1: other kinds. That crazy and She's like, Nah, I'm not
Speaker 1: doing that. That that's not That's not what I'm about.
Speaker 1: That's like yeah, so I want to think more about
Speaker 1: about her identity, politics, her actual politics. And also like, man,
Speaker 1: you know, what is a vice president? What are they
Speaker 1: supposed to do? What are what are we supposed to
Speaker 1: expect from them? Are we holding her to a standard
Speaker 1: that's unfair or not? And well need to find out
Speaker 1: more that's right. And on this point, her former communications
Speaker 1: director Jamal Simmons, who only stepped down in the last
Speaker 1: few weeks. And guess what, we get to talk to him.
Speaker 1: That's who we have on today Jamal Simmons, who's been
Speaker 1: a longtime friend of ours. He worked as Kamala Harris's
Speaker 1: communications director for all of twenty twenty two. He held
Speaker 1: this position for a year. He is our friend, and
Speaker 1: he is going to be our Kamala Harris explainer. That's right,
Speaker 1: we're gonna learn a lot more about her from someone
Speaker 1: who's one of our best friends who can give us
Speaker 1: the inside scoop. Let's do it. Jamal, what's up, my man.
Speaker 1: It's great to see you. It's good to see you guys. First,
Speaker 1: I want to say that we've known each other since college.
Speaker 1: You know, you were in Morehouse and you were friends
Speaker 1: with Danielle who is now my wife, and she and
Speaker 1: I were dating then, and she was going to school
Speaker 1: in Atlanta too, and so yeah, we've actually been friends
Speaker 1: since then. I mean, that's been been a little bit.
Speaker 1: And the first thing I want to say, is you
Speaker 1: getting this job as the communications director for the vice
Speaker 1: president of the United States. I was just I just
Speaker 1: I just felt immense pride. So I just felt pride.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that it was a it was a good
Speaker 1: time and honor and a privilege, you know, to be there,
Speaker 1: and uh, I felt the moral support that I was
Speaker 1: getting even though I was exhausted all of the time.
Speaker 1: We can only imagine that we want to hear it.
Speaker 1: We want to hear exactly what makes one exhausted in
Speaker 1: the White House. So listen, um, I mean, I'm a historian,
Speaker 1: Ben's a journalist, but neither one of us are political junkies,
Speaker 1: certainly not in the way you are. And while we
Speaker 1: pay close attention to what's happening in the country nationally obviously,
Speaker 1: but but here you are coming off of being the
Speaker 1: man in charge of the messaging of the vice President
Speaker 1: of the United States of America. So tell us exactly
Speaker 1: what you did. Yeah, I mean, I gotta. I actually
Speaker 1: I'm proud of him, but I don't I don't have
Speaker 1: no clue what he actually was it where you're just
Speaker 1: are proving emails to send out under her name, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's that's probably what it was. I would say all
Speaker 1: of the above, right, So I'll just tell you this.
Speaker 1: My first day in the office was January tenth of
Speaker 1: two thousand and twenty two, and I got about four
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty seven emails that day I count it,
Speaker 1: and some of them you can kind of get rid
Speaker 1: of immediately because they don't believe I mean that they matter,
Speaker 1: But it's just like somebody sending you a press release
Speaker 1: about an announcement somewhere. Some of them, though, are conversations
Speaker 1: that are happening between people. But ultimately the communications director's
Speaker 1: job is to figure out all the ways the vice
Speaker 1: president is engaging in the public through media speeches. In
Speaker 1: my office, I had the director's speech writing, the press secretary,
Speaker 1: the digital director um and then a communication staff and
Speaker 1: so all those people reported to me, and the idea
Speaker 1: was that we should all be saying the same thing
Speaker 1: on the same day, okay, And so that was the
Speaker 1: job was to figure out, you know, with my colleagues
Speaker 1: and the other departments and the Vice President, what is
Speaker 1: it that we want to talk about on Tuesday, and
Speaker 1: how is it that we're going to communicate that message
Speaker 1: to as many people as possible, and what venues are
Speaker 1: we going to do it? And then we present that
Speaker 1: to the Vice President and then she crosses off fifty
Speaker 1: percent of what it is, we say, add in a
Speaker 1: bunch of more, and then you know, she goes out
Speaker 1: and said and and and tell us a story of
Speaker 1: like a time that that you came up with a
Speaker 1: message and it went south or something where it was
Speaker 1: like really tricky. Um, well we're luckily, I will say
Speaker 1: I didn't have any experiences where things went south. There
Speaker 1: were some experiences I think people had before I got there.
Speaker 1: Um And and as you know, I would just say,
Speaker 1: all these success was hers, all the mistakes were mine.
Speaker 1: Uma that next job look a no. But you know,
Speaker 1: the big thing is she actually knows a lot about
Speaker 1: what she wants to say. The thing that I remember
Speaker 1: about Kamala Harris is that she's been her entire early
Speaker 1: part of her career as a prosecutor. So like many
Speaker 1: of us when we start learning our jobs, those lessons
Speaker 1: that we learned very early to stick with us throughout
Speaker 1: the rest of our careers. So for her, words have
Speaker 1: a lot of meaning because, as she would say, when
Speaker 1: she would get up in front of the public and
Speaker 1: talk to the press, it was usually about somebody's freedom,
Speaker 1: right because if she was going to prosecute somebody, they
Speaker 1: may go to jail. Or was about a family that
Speaker 1: was in pain because something had occurred to them and
Speaker 1: she felt some responsibility to them. So that always informed
Speaker 1: what the word choices. She would make the way she
Speaker 1: wanted to communicate. Sometimes I would say she could have
Speaker 1: been a little bit more rhetorical. I wanted her to
Speaker 1: sometimes be a little bit more um, you know, a
Speaker 1: little more political flourish or kind of a you know,
Speaker 1: a bigger story. But I think her response to say
Speaker 1: that she was not that funny is that sounds like
Speaker 1: she just because I was serious. Yeah, she could just
Speaker 1: I don't think of I don't I don't think of
Speaker 1: a single prosecutor who I've ever heard actually told a
Speaker 1: joke that anybody was interested in laughing. She needed to
Speaker 1: loosen up. She would never tell jokes, you know, in
Speaker 1: that environment, right, because it's usually a very serious environment.
Speaker 1: So I think the thing that I always hope that
Speaker 1: she would do more of, which was which was be
Speaker 1: a little more funny, be a little more personally revealing,
Speaker 1: um and uh, you know, talk more about the bigger picture.
Speaker 1: But she always wants to take the bigger picture and
Speaker 1: then figure out, like what way to make it real
Speaker 1: to people in very concrete ways. Uh. And that's kind
Speaker 1: of her brand, is like you know, what does this mean.
Speaker 1: We're gonna we passed this huge bill. We're gonna spend
Speaker 1: a bunch of money on infrastructure. I'm in Chicago today.
Speaker 1: Tell me about the stretch on Wabash, you know, Avenue
Speaker 1: or whatever. Tell me about that. That's the that's the original,
Speaker 1: that's the original, coldish pronunciation. He's got he's got more
Speaker 1: roots than we do. He's like, he researched this. I
Speaker 1: love its right. So and then we're looking for jokes
Speaker 1: wherever we could find. I love it. I'll take it.
Speaker 1: I'll take it. The White House. It's like a joke
Speaker 1: free environment. So I'll get my joke game back up,
Speaker 1: and and and and what about you, Like, what's the
Speaker 1: moment of this year, of this intense work where you
Speaker 1: probably didn't see your family, you didn't see your young children.
Speaker 1: What's the moment that you're most proud of, like your
Speaker 1: own your own work that you did. You know, there
Speaker 1: are some things that I'm proud of that have really,
Speaker 1: really very little to do with me. So, for instance,
Speaker 1: when the tragedy happened in Buffalo, the shooting, we went
Speaker 1: to Buffalo and the Vice President was just going to
Speaker 1: go to attend a funeral. She was sitting in the
Speaker 1: front row of a pew and they invited her to
Speaker 1: come up and speak, and she got up and spoke
Speaker 1: and gave one of her most compelling addresses. We didn't
Speaker 1: write it. She you know, just got up and gave
Speaker 1: it off the cuff. But then she also went and
Speaker 1: met with some of the families in like the church
Speaker 1: gymnasium and just watching her walk, you know, family and
Speaker 1: the family shaking hands, hugging people, talking about their loved ones,
Speaker 1: talking about the tragedy that had occurred. And I said
Speaker 1: to her, like, wow, this is like, you know, you
Speaker 1: were really you know, you were really kind of good
Speaker 1: in there, Like she said, you know, I spent my
Speaker 1: entire career talking to people in pain, and she had
Speaker 1: a really you know way of talking to people who
Speaker 1: were experiencing like a profound moment of grief. And I
Speaker 1: think those families felt comfort, you know, having her there.
Speaker 1: That was a big day for me. Yeah. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: do have a follow up question though. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about about what you said about her skills
Speaker 1: right as a prosecutor, in the way in which she
Speaker 1: was very careful and deliberate in addressing these very serious
Speaker 1: topics before the public, and I'm thinking about like a
Speaker 1: pastor who has to do a lot of eulogies, Like
Speaker 1: there's a certain kind of rhetorical structure that you're accustomed
Speaker 1: to because people are always in pain when you are
Speaker 1: addressing them, and you just have this natural way of
Speaker 1: deliberately walking that line between the kind of you know,
Speaker 1: acknowledgement of that grief as well as the aspiration that
Speaker 1: people want to believe, you know, in in where this
Speaker 1: person is going next. You know, they're heavenly afterlife and
Speaker 1: the family's going to move on. So we just learned
Speaker 1: a little bit more about her gifts. She could be
Speaker 1: a prosecutor, or she could be a pastor, giving you well,
Speaker 1: you know, what's the other thing I'll say. There was
Speaker 1: another big moment which we all know you all sign
Speaker 1: the news when the Supreme Court who started to rule
Speaker 1: on Roe v. Way, the Dabb's decision. The first thing
Speaker 1: that happened was the case leaked before it was supposed
Speaker 1: to come out, right, So the case leaked. We go
Speaker 1: into her office. She's supposed to speak at Emily's List
Speaker 1: that night, which is a pro choice women's political organization.
Speaker 1: She's supposed to speak at Emily's List that night. We're
Speaker 1: sitting in her office around around the table and she
Speaker 1: starts talking about the what's come out in the League
Speaker 1: of the decision. She said, if this is true, that
Speaker 1: means they're going to go after privacy rights. That's our freedom,
Speaker 1: that's liberty. She starts like going through this whole list,
Speaker 1: and she starts saying, you know, I mean, who are
Speaker 1: these guys? How dare they do this to American? How
Speaker 1: dare that? And she starts going to this and so
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there and I look at the speech writer
Speaker 1: and I'm like, and so he's you know, they're typing.
Speaker 1: He's typing and she's talking. And so that ended up
Speaker 1: in the speech she gave that night at Emily's List,
Speaker 1: which was one of the most quoted moments for her. Well,
Speaker 1: we say, how dare they? How dare they tell a
Speaker 1: woman what she can do and cannot do with her
Speaker 1: own body? How dare they? How dare they? Is right? Wow,
Speaker 1: what a powerful voice in that moment for Kamala. We're
Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break, and when we come back,
Speaker 1: Jamala is gonna make the case for his former boss,
Speaker 1: Vice President Kamala Harris. We are back with Jamal Simmons,
Speaker 1: the former now communications director for the Vice President of
Speaker 1: the United States, Kamala Harris, and he is on Some
Speaker 1: of my best friends are and while most people are clony,
Speaker 1: hear us. We can actually see you, Jamal. And I'm
Speaker 1: seeing these like folders on your desk and some of
Speaker 1: them are more classified, I think in top secret. You
Speaker 1: have all these these documents there, what are those? And
Speaker 1: so for the for the security services that are listening
Speaker 1: to this, these are jokes. These are all just um,
Speaker 1: you know what's funny. What's funny is I was listening
Speaker 1: to this quote unquote scandal. It has been unfolding for
Speaker 1: the last few weeks, and I was thinking about my
Speaker 1: exit from the White House and the briefing that I got.
Speaker 1: Don't get it. Basically, this belongs to you nothing. You
Speaker 1: take the pictures of your kids and you know the
Speaker 1: cards that were given to you. Everything else belongs to
Speaker 1: the government. So you should leave it in this white
Speaker 1: box and good luck. All right, So so listen, we
Speaker 1: we are. We are expectant, like so many people, that
Speaker 1: at minimum, the current Vice President, Kamala Harris, will likely
Speaker 1: be a presidential candidate in twenty twenty four. She was
Speaker 1: once already so this won't be the first time that
Speaker 1: she at least runs in a primary. So we don't
Speaker 1: know Biden's going to do. But let's just say that
Speaker 1: she's in the cards. But before we figure out like
Speaker 1: how to evaluate her as a future presidential candidate, we
Speaker 1: want to have a clearer sense of how to judge
Speaker 1: her as a vice president. So let's just start off
Speaker 1: with a really basic question, what the hell does a
Speaker 1: vice president do? Anyway? Okay, I just want to say
Speaker 1: this one thing. Joe Biden is running for president in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. So everybody, we just we just broke
Speaker 1: We just broke the news. Ben. This is that we've
Speaker 1: been waiting for this moment for two seasons. We just
Speaker 1: broke news. All right, expectations He's running for president. She
Speaker 1: will be his vice president, vice presidential running mate. You
Speaker 1: may see her, I think in twenty twenty eight. Listen,
Speaker 1: here's the thing about Comma Herr. She's fifty eight years old. Ye,
Speaker 1: she's going to be too old in twenty twenty eight.
Speaker 1: Joe Biden is one hundred and twenty three. Like I
Speaker 1: was joking, best line ever you can president forever? Um? No,
Speaker 1: So I think. So that said, the likelihood is one
Speaker 1: day you will see her name on the ballot again,
Speaker 1: um by itself or at the top of the ticket,
Speaker 1: whether there's twenty four or twenty eight. Um. So what
Speaker 1: does the vice president do? The vice president has two responsibilities.
Speaker 1: One is to cast votes and tie tie breaking tie
Speaker 1: breaking votes in the United States Senate, there's a fifty
Speaker 1: fifty split, all right. She did more of that than
Speaker 1: any friends and any vice president since like John Quincy
Speaker 1: Adams happened to me fifty fifty those twenty six times,
Speaker 1: twenty six times, and by one hundred and seventeenth Congress.
Speaker 1: You just had that in your back pocket, Khalil Or
Speaker 1: did you come on, man? You know I'm just playing.
Speaker 1: I'm possum here. I'm already. I'm just playing. He's a
Speaker 1: well resoarsed man. Um uh. And so so that's number
Speaker 1: one job is to cast tie breaking votes. Number two
Speaker 1: job is to be in case you have to become president.
Speaker 1: That's it. Everything else is like made up. So I
Speaker 1: had this, I had this approach when I took the job,
Speaker 1: and I talked to my staff about this. That what
Speaker 1: the idea of something being vice presidential is built upon
Speaker 1: a notion created by every other person who had ever
Speaker 1: been vice president. So whatever Kamala Harris does will become
Speaker 1: vice presidential because she is the vice president, and therefore
Speaker 1: she will set the tone for her for whatever the
Speaker 1: future of this office is. And so we should take
Speaker 1: advantage of that, and we shouldn't feel imprisoned by what
Speaker 1: other people chose to to do or chose not to do.
Speaker 1: And if you think about her versus our most recent
Speaker 1: vice president, I mean, like the guy she's the vice
Speaker 1: president for exactly like a Joe Biden type. So we
Speaker 1: have this notion, we have this notion of these vice
Speaker 1: presidents who are people who are more experienced in the
Speaker 1: ways of Washington and politics, national politics and the president. Right,
Speaker 1: Joe Biden the Washington tutor for Barack Obama, you know,
Speaker 1: George H. W. Bush was the you know, the tutor
Speaker 1: for Ronald Reagan. Um, Dick Cheney was the hold on.
Speaker 1: But Dick Chaney was the actual president, right, Like he
Speaker 1: wasn't tutoring George Walker Bush, he was actually the president. Okay, sorry,
Speaker 1: sorry about that, so right, so mean, so you see
Speaker 1: you see the pattern. You see the pattern here, uh,
Speaker 1: and Cheney being the most extreme case. Um, that's not
Speaker 1: true for kamal Aaris right, like Joe Biden, has got
Speaker 1: the most Washington experience. So in her world, I always
Speaker 1: looked at it like this. She is the face of
Speaker 1: the America we're becoming, not the America that we used
Speaker 1: to be. Right, it's more educated, it is more centered
Speaker 1: in the Sun Belt, the West and southern states of
Speaker 1: the United States. Um and frankly a little more progressive.
Speaker 1: So um, So she should not be thinking about how
Speaker 1: a conservative white guy used to do this job. Conservative
Speaker 1: white guy who've been in Washington his whole life, his
Speaker 1: whole career, you should do this job. She should do
Speaker 1: the job based on who she is and bringing something new.
Speaker 1: So we spent most of our time traveling around the
Speaker 1: country three days a week, meeting people who are out
Speaker 1: in the country, bringing people from other parts of the
Speaker 1: country to Washington to meet with her in her office,
Speaker 1: because I believe that her power lie out in the
Speaker 1: country with the people who were looking for her to lead,
Speaker 1: not sidered in marble hallways inside Washington, DC or the
Speaker 1: White House. So don't play the game of Joe Biden
Speaker 1: or Al Gore. Make a new game where you go
Speaker 1: out to the country, not one where you go out
Speaker 1: to the Senate. So this is like her basically going
Speaker 1: around meeting with all the AKA branches, the alfacap alf
Speaker 1: branches around the country to break with tradition as a
Speaker 1: part of in fact of maybe what you did, so
Speaker 1: you called you called it the Ski week, right, I
Speaker 1: will say I will say this, there were more Divine
Speaker 1: nine meetings, not just akas, but there were more Divine
Speaker 1: nine meetings in the last year of my life than
Speaker 1: probably in the last thirty five years of my life.
Speaker 1: All right, So Ben Ben Ben is in this conversation,
Speaker 1: and while he's cool, he you know, I just have
Speaker 1: to tell you, Ben, Divine nine are the historically black
Speaker 1: fraternitys and sororities. It's it's the umbrella way to define
Speaker 1: all of them together. Just I thought i'd let you man.
Speaker 1: Thank you SAMs. All right, all right, all right, I
Speaker 1: was I was five Beta Kappa. He is married to
Speaker 1: an AKA, so I'm sure he's heard some of this before.
Speaker 1: That's true. So Jamal, you came into this job. It's
Speaker 1: a communications director at a time when when Kamala Harris
Speaker 1: was getting criticized for a dysfunction in her office, and
Speaker 1: she's often criticized and I want to hear from you, like,
Speaker 1: can we talk about the criticisms of her? Could you
Speaker 1: tell us maybe to start, like, like, what are the
Speaker 1: invalid ones? What are the ones that you think are
Speaker 1: trumped up? Maybe we can't say trumped up anymore. What
Speaker 1: are the ones that you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah, if
Speaker 1: you we can yeah. Um uh So I'll start here,
Speaker 1: which is that racism and sexism misogyny are real. Um.
Speaker 1: And it is not that she is flawless. It's not
Speaker 1: that she doesn't make mistakes. It is, however, true. Two
Speaker 1: things are true. One, when she makes mistakes, um, they
Speaker 1: are magnified and people look to them as more of
Speaker 1: an indicator of some innate ability or disability or lack
Speaker 1: of ability. Um. Then if somebody else makes a mistake.
Speaker 1: I mean, Joe Biden says things all the time, you know,
Speaker 1: and turn out to be wrong or I'm a fucker
Speaker 1: as president. If you looked at the things he said
Speaker 1: over time, I mean it's crazy, Like if you just
Speaker 1: if those if you just took the list of his
Speaker 1: his malaproprisms or like screw ups or like, you know,
Speaker 1: funky things he said just about like Barack Obama. I
Speaker 1: mean somebody asked me the other day. They were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: so what you know, where's commonly hair has been. I'm like,
Speaker 1: what do you believe? Remember about Joe Biden? You remember
Speaker 1: a couple of things about Joe Biden. One healthcare bill passes,
Speaker 1: big fucking deal, right, it says into the microphone, and
Speaker 1: Barack Obama's like patting him on the shoulder like come on,
Speaker 1: bro stop um uh. And then two to the beer summit,
Speaker 1: yess to. And then the third one, I would say
Speaker 1: is when he came out in favor of marriage quality
Speaker 1: before the before me. Yeah, right, yeah, that's kind of
Speaker 1: which was a gaff which was kind of a gaff
Speaker 1: in and of itself. Right, So from a communication standpoint,
Speaker 1: I mean, just very briefly describe how that was a
Speaker 1: communications a crisis in a way. So if the president
Speaker 1: the number one okay, the number three job of the
Speaker 1: vice president after vote, stay alive and take the job.
Speaker 1: The number three job is don't upstage the president. Exactly
Speaker 1: is it is one of the cardinal problems. And I'll
Speaker 1: tell you people always said, well, you know about the
Speaker 1: filibuster or one of the other issues. You know, the
Speaker 1: vice president vice president here should should She should just
Speaker 1: say what she wants to say. You know, Joe Biden
Speaker 1: bucked Barack Obama marriage quality. She should say something about
Speaker 1: voting rights or criminal justice or something else, even if
Speaker 1: Joe Biden doesn't believe it. Well, I think you get
Speaker 1: one bite at that apple, right, You sort of get
Speaker 1: to do that at one time, and you better hope
Speaker 1: you're on the right side of history, because you could
Speaker 1: end up spending the rest of your time going to
Speaker 1: funerals in the South Pacific, you know, South Pacific islands
Speaker 1: for American allies, you know, around the world, instead of
Speaker 1: she was just out there anyway? Is that right? She did?
Speaker 1: But okay, but I do think that this is this
Speaker 1: is like a thing. It's a very hard thing to do. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's to buck the president. That is actually like your
Speaker 1: job is to do the you work for the president
Speaker 1: of the United States. Um. So you know it is
Speaker 1: very hard for the vice president to make news. And
Speaker 1: so um I shouted off here she won racism, sexism
Speaker 1: a real It doesn't mean she doesn't make mistakes, just
Speaker 1: means they get magnified. Two people think she might run
Speaker 1: for president one day. So there is a concerted effort
Speaker 1: on the right to attack her, go after her, you know,
Speaker 1: and blow up any small mistakes she may make and
Speaker 1: turn that into a bigger deal. Alternate may otherwise be Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: you've already said she was very deliberate, so I might
Speaker 1: already know the answer this question. But you know, Obama
Speaker 1: was very circumspect and very reserved stoic, even in the
Speaker 1: face of the same kinds of attacks, at least because
Speaker 1: of his race as opposed to his gender and certainly
Speaker 1: caricature lampooned in the most racist ways imaginable, and for
Speaker 1: the most part, he kept us cool. I mean, with
Speaker 1: the exception of Michael Key and his version of Obama's
Speaker 1: alternative ego Luther, instead of giving voice to this, is
Speaker 1: there an alternate ego for Kamala Harris. She have her
Speaker 1: own version of Luther that she's playing out either in
Speaker 1: her head that you could tell or in private inside
Speaker 1: of the White House. She actually really is cool as
Speaker 1: a cucumber. You know, I think these things happen. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying they don't annoy her, but they I think
Speaker 1: they happen, and she does let them kind of blow off. Um.
Speaker 1: She also, by the way, likes to use the F bomb.
Speaker 1: It is, oh all right, the way she's in good
Speaker 1: company with Ben. It is by far the best swear
Speaker 1: word in the in the American language because because it
Speaker 1: is it is there's an adjective, verb and a now
Speaker 1: right depending on usage. I kind of love that. So
Speaker 1: I should tell you this funny story. So an episode
Speaker 1: we did you Know a few few episodes back, Ben's
Speaker 1: mom listened to it, and she regularly listens to our show,
Speaker 1: and Ben sent her a note asking her something, and
Speaker 1: she answered the note back She's like, Yeah, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: fucking do this when you fucking tell me to do it.
Speaker 1: And and by the way, you fucking curse too much
Speaker 1: on your show. So according to succeeded, I changed her
Speaker 1: language to use this fantastic word. Yeah. Absolutely, I like hearing.
Speaker 1: That was a good question. Khalil um jamal. Are they're
Speaker 1: valid criticisms? Can you talk about about sort of things
Speaker 1: that she has slipped up or could do better? Like
Speaker 1: was the dysfunction real? Like we heard all these stories
Speaker 1: of dysfunction in her office, and that she's, you know,
Speaker 1: a manager that wasn't able to retain people. So, um,
Speaker 1: here's what I'll say about that. Every day that I
Speaker 1: was with her, I saw some little black or brown
Speaker 1: girl look at her like she was wonder woman right,
Speaker 1: like she was there on their own personal superhero. I
Speaker 1: saw older women of all races, black, white, and others
Speaker 1: grab her by the hand and say, I never thought
Speaker 1: I would see the day right how a woman that
Speaker 1: would be in this office would be in the White House,
Speaker 1: even a vice president, And I want you to be
Speaker 1: president one day. A lot of people would say that,
Speaker 1: even if people felt some kind of way, A lot
Speaker 1: of people would say like, I hope you get to
Speaker 1: be president. With that, I think she feels very acutely
Speaker 1: the responsibility to all of those people who are looking
Speaker 1: at her with this, with this expectation and this um,
Speaker 1: this pride in her assent um. And she would say
Speaker 1: like she's not that this is not the first job.
Speaker 1: She was the first black woman ag in California. Now
Speaker 1: she's the first black woman vice president. So she's had
Speaker 1: this expectation on her for a long time. And I
Speaker 1: think some of that is part of the reason why
Speaker 1: she's probably more reserved that somebody would like me, would
Speaker 1: want her to be because the idea of making mistakes,
Speaker 1: every mistake she made that got blown up in public.
Speaker 1: I think she didn't just feel it as a personal problem,
Speaker 1: but she felt Perhaps she never told me this, but
Speaker 1: I'm supposing that if she was letting down all these
Speaker 1: people who looked at her and said, I'm so proud
Speaker 1: of you, right, I want somebody I want my daughter
Speaker 1: to be like you. Um So I think, um. I
Speaker 1: think that I created like a reservedness about her that
Speaker 1: I think does not always suit her and does not always,
Speaker 1: you know, do her well. And I think she could
Speaker 1: stand to get outside of that. And I think it's
Speaker 1: rooted though, and something that's very legitimate. It's also rooted
Speaker 1: in talk about the staff thing, that responsibility she feels acutely.
Speaker 1: She holds herself to a high standard. She holds her
Speaker 1: staff to a high standard, and she can be tough.
Speaker 1: She could be a tough boss. But I think it
Speaker 1: comes from a place that is rooted in I've got
Speaker 1: to perform because these there are millions of people who
Speaker 1: want and need me to perform, and I can't afford
Speaker 1: to let them down to get this job. Jamal, did
Speaker 1: you have to tell them that you voted for Kamala
Speaker 1: Harris and the primary? The Democratic primary nobody asked. And
Speaker 1: I mean, that's I'm thinking out a loud here because
Speaker 1: Khalil and I I'm pretty sure Khalil didn't. I know
Speaker 1: I didn't, And you know, sort of that to even
Speaker 1: hear us talk about why, and then maybe you can
Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, try to tell us what differently,
Speaker 1: you know, why you didn't. Don't tell me she didn't
Speaker 1: make it. She didn't make it. She wasn't actually on
Speaker 1: the ballot in the Democratic primary. That is a good
Speaker 1: even Yeah, you know, you know, from from jump as
Speaker 1: you're sort of picking who your who your people would be,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I think for me, part of it,
Speaker 1: part of it was her background as a prosecutor and
Speaker 1: the attorney general in California and some of her her
Speaker 1: stances on criminal justice and not looking for criminal justice reforms. Um.
Speaker 1: Some of it was that I felt, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: more progressive, I think than than some of her policies.
Speaker 1: But and then in a way that the sort of
Speaker 1: symbolic things that you said of being the first, of
Speaker 1: being a woman, of being a woman of color, those
Speaker 1: are really important to me, and still policy things felt
Speaker 1: like they superseded them. You know what's interesting she actually
Speaker 1: used to be regarded she was kind of the progressive
Speaker 1: prosecutor right, So in San Francisco she led the way
Speaker 1: on prosecutors actually waiting into criminal justice reform. So in
Speaker 1: San Francisco she started this first step program where she
Speaker 1: would get people who had been in their first conviction
Speaker 1: and tried to deal with recidivism and reform and get
Speaker 1: them into like, you know, track them into other occupations,
Speaker 1: maybe away from the thing that got them in trouble
Speaker 1: in the first place. So she was ahead of her
Speaker 1: time on that. And one of the ways she first
Speaker 1: became known is because in San Francisco there was a
Speaker 1: cop killing in her first year as DA, and she
Speaker 1: and everybody wanted the killer to be prosecuted under the
Speaker 1: death penalty, and she refused to go after the death
Speaker 1: penalty for this cop killer, and the police in California
Speaker 1: and all came out against her because of this, and
Speaker 1: people were protesting her. So in early two thousand she
Speaker 1: was really at the forefront of prosecutorial criminal justice reform.
Speaker 1: I think what happened is the movement, you know, sort
Speaker 1: of passed by this leader, which happens to a lot
Speaker 1: of people in leadership where you know, they start down
Speaker 1: to place and they get you know, vilified by the
Speaker 1: establishment for being too pushing, too far, and then the
Speaker 1: activists sort of keep pushing and maybe pushed past where
Speaker 1: they were when they started. So she kind of got
Speaker 1: she kind of got caught in between both of those, um,
Speaker 1: both of those polls of being both a progressive and
Speaker 1: being a prosecutor. I love that you are complicating our impressions.
Speaker 1: I mean, the truth is, you know, you know her
Speaker 1: up close better than most people. Certainly having these conversations.
Speaker 1: I will say that you know her leaning into the
Speaker 1: role as a top cop writing a book about smart
Speaker 1: own crime. You know, this was this was progressive light
Speaker 1: right by the standards of where the conversation moved. You know,
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say she was, well, it's
Speaker 1: progressive light today. But I mean, your history made your history.
Speaker 1: A historian, you kind of have to look at people
Speaker 1: in the context their times as well as in the
Speaker 1: context of what we think may may or may not be.
Speaker 1: Like the ultimate what years did she Lets let's run
Speaker 1: this down real quick. What years was she in the
Speaker 1: office progressive prosecutors? Then it wasn't yet a thing, So yeah,
Speaker 1: she invented the concept. By two thousand and three, the
Speaker 1: Sentencing Project had for more than a decade pointed out
Speaker 1: the rash of sentencing laws under mandatory minimums and drug
Speaker 1: sentencing that had wreaked havoc on justice in this country.
Speaker 1: The footprint of racial disparity data by that time was
Speaker 1: already a mountain. And even I mean, you know, you
Speaker 1: know this as well as anybody. I was showing Boys
Speaker 1: in the Hood, which was like a foil for John
Speaker 1: Singleton to give life to this notion of mass incarceration
Speaker 1: and the relationship between concentrated disadvantage and a system of
Speaker 1: brutality from policing, you know, to caging black people as
Speaker 1: a death sentence back in nineteen ninety one when that
Speaker 1: film was released. So while I will accept that within
Speaker 1: the construct of what prosecutors saw themselves capable of doing,
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris can claim a role as a pioneer, but
Speaker 1: there was a politics that was more to the left
Speaker 1: of where she was, and that's important. Now I'm going
Speaker 1: to also say one more thing, so without saying too much,
Speaker 1: you know, I know her sister Maya Harris because of
Speaker 1: my time as a fundraiser at Schaumberg when her sister
Speaker 1: was VP at the Ford Foundation, and through a series
Speaker 1: of relationships, I got to ask a little bit about
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris, and you know what I got, What my
Speaker 1: little birdie told me was that, you know, she wasn't
Speaker 1: her sister, that her sister was more progressive. Her sister
Speaker 1: had been worked at the ACOU And so I think
Speaker 1: it's fair to say that Kamala Harris was more centrist.
Speaker 1: Not just that she was kind of on the cutting edge,
Speaker 1: but she was fundamentally more centrist on some of these
Speaker 1: really tough issues than a lot of people even at
Speaker 1: that time. Listen, I think that maybe true. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: dispute that. I think what is true also is that
Speaker 1: you have different jobs. Right. So if Maya is a
Speaker 1: social justice ACLU for foundation, you know, NGEO leader that
Speaker 1: has a different job than being a prosecutor who is
Speaker 1: charged with enforcing the laws on the books of their community,
Speaker 1: right and then trying to do what you can creatively
Speaker 1: to try to prevent people from being on the wrong
Speaker 1: end of your prosecutorial stick. Right. So I think it's
Speaker 1: the same thing is true about being a US senator
Speaker 1: or being a president being a president is not being
Speaker 1: an activist. So I just think you have to look
Speaker 1: at people in the role that they are in. And
Speaker 1: then the role of the activist and the community outside
Speaker 1: of politics is to push the politicians in the direction
Speaker 1: that it is we want them to go. But if
Speaker 1: the people are not there, it is very difficult for
Speaker 1: someone who is elected to go to a place where
Speaker 1: the people do not support him or her to be
Speaker 1: And I think we, you know, the adults, adults in
Speaker 1: us kind of have to recognize that that's that's just
Speaker 1: sort of what the world works. All right, Well, this
Speaker 1: is good. We're gonna we're gonna keep it moving. From
Speaker 1: that point, I did, I did. I did learn something though,
Speaker 1: that is that, um, if she can be funnier and
Speaker 1: more personable, then she has a really good shot at
Speaker 1: running for president in twenty twenty eight and winning. So
Speaker 1: she's the most likely, most likely next nominee, most likely
Speaker 1: next nominee. So so here's a good question, then, jamal
Speaker 1: Or like something for us to think about and discuss,
Speaker 1: Like you described all the things that she does as
Speaker 1: vice president, and you know, those three big roles and
Speaker 1: then these other sort of tasks and part that you
Speaker 1: even shaped over the last year of going out and
Speaker 1: meeting people. How should we judge her as a presidential candidate, say,
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty eight, on what basis? Oh, I think
Speaker 1: people should judge her based on the way we judge
Speaker 1: every candidate, which is, what do they want to do
Speaker 1: for my future? Right? I don't think elections are about
Speaker 1: the past. Elections are always about the future, and it's
Speaker 1: about and it also comparative, you know, they're also they're
Speaker 1: always between candidate A and candidate B, not candidate A
Speaker 1: and my sense of who the perfect human being ought
Speaker 1: to be in the world, who could sit and sit
Speaker 1: in an office. Um. But I think we always make
Speaker 1: judgments about what somebody's going to do in the future
Speaker 1: and then we decide with not you know, it makes sense. Um.
Speaker 1: We also personal qualities matter a lot. Just just to
Speaker 1: push you, you know further, like, um, okay, we get
Speaker 1: that it's about the future, So tell us just just
Speaker 1: give us like her top three values. Like you know,
Speaker 1: here we are, we've gone through the resurgence of white
Speaker 1: nationalism and white supremacy. We've had every kind of existential
Speaker 1: democratic or a democracy threat unfold before us. Um. So
Speaker 1: She's not going to have the country that Obama inherits
Speaker 1: the first black president. She's going to be the second
Speaker 1: black president and the first woman if she wins. So
Speaker 1: what is her vision of the future. So, first of all,
Speaker 1: I don't work for her anymore, So I don't I
Speaker 1: can't speak directly for her, but what I will say
Speaker 1: is that she believes a lot in inclusiveness and making
Speaker 1: sure that people who are not at the table are
Speaker 1: at the table. She believes in standing up to bad
Speaker 1: actors and making and holding them accountable. Right, So if
Speaker 1: you look at like the Corinthian student loan scandal, like
Speaker 1: she went out for them when she was Attorney general
Speaker 1: and then as vice president and president. They helped get
Speaker 1: people get restitution for some of the people who were
Speaker 1: taking advantage of by these predatory companies that had gone
Speaker 1: after people who are trying to get educations. So she
Speaker 1: believes in standing up against people who are trying to
Speaker 1: take advantage. She believes in making sure people who are
Speaker 1: not in the picture are at the table in order
Speaker 1: to be included. And what it is we're talking about
Speaker 1: as a country and how we're going to govern, and
Speaker 1: so I think we'll judge you will judge her at
Speaker 1: the time on what it is that she really wants
Speaker 1: to be, what it is she really wants to say
Speaker 1: and offer the country, and people will decide whether or
Speaker 1: not they think she's, you know, a good enough candidate. Man.
Speaker 1: I love that question, Khalil, what are her values? And
Speaker 1: Jamala love that answer? Like you. You were up close
Speaker 1: and personal with her. Um, You're right, you don't work
Speaker 1: for her anymore, but you you do know her really well,
Speaker 1: and so you saw these in practice, and so hearing
Speaker 1: them from you is meaningful and if not yet persuasive,
Speaker 1: it's at least influential. There's a lot of Listen, there's
Speaker 1: so much ground between here and twenty twenty four or
Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight. Yeah, there's a lot of that point.
Speaker 1: But that point, you would the three of us will
Speaker 1: be thinking about our social security. Do we want to
Speaker 1: go early retirement or we're gonna make it all the
Speaker 1: way to sixty five? Man? But I do want to
Speaker 1: take this and Khalil, I'm gonna I'm gonna put you
Speaker 1: in this camp. I think we've talked about this before.
Speaker 1: I just gonna take a personal moment of pride that
Speaker 1: the first black president Nited States was named Barack and
Speaker 1: the first black woman vice president was named Kamala. They
Speaker 1: were not named uh Brian and Camille and Leroy. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: Like you know we have I mean, you know, those
Speaker 1: of us who've had names that are you know, rooted
Speaker 1: in Africa or our you know, our other cultures, um
Speaker 1: have always had this sort of shadow of people saying, oh,
Speaker 1: your your opportunities are going to be diminished because you
Speaker 1: have these names that's sound Anglo and you know that
Speaker 1: quote unquote black sounding names that Bill Cosby, before his
Speaker 1: his own self destruction, used to lampoon and make fun
Speaker 1: of and tell Black people they were their own worst
Speaker 1: enemies because they named their children these made up names.
Speaker 1: What an asshole. But here we are, we've all proved
Speaker 1: them wrong. Yeah, exactly three of the two of the
Speaker 1: three of us here have those black on the names.
Speaker 1: We're doing. Okay, that's right, We're doing the damn thing.
Speaker 1: All right. We're gonna take a quick break before we
Speaker 1: wrap things up with Jamal Simmons. We are back on
Speaker 1: Some of my best friends are with Jamal Simmons. Jamal,
Speaker 1: I actually want to go back earlier in your career
Speaker 1: because you worked in the Clinton administration as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking about when I first met you, you
Speaker 1: gave off this vibe of somebody who wanted to go
Speaker 1: into politics, like you had that about you. And I mean, actually, Khalil,
Speaker 1: I want to you said that about me. I want
Speaker 1: to throw that. I want to throw this at you, actually, Khalil,
Speaker 1: because like, like I think everybody who knew Jamal then
Speaker 1: was like that fool's going into politics in some way.
Speaker 1: And but you know, Khalil, you had you had some
Speaker 1: of these ambitions, I guess, but you never went into politics.
Speaker 1: You didn't. You didn't look in that way. Did you
Speaker 1: think that was something you want to do? Why or
Speaker 1: why not? Like what? Oh, that's that's really that's funny
Speaker 1: you should ask. Because I actually thought by fifty ben
Speaker 1: that I would go into politics. It was the Obama
Speaker 1: era that made me change my mind in the opposite direction,
Speaker 1: as you know, as opposed to like actually living up
Speaker 1: to the ambition. I actually figured I'd do the history
Speaker 1: thing for about fifteen good years and I'd go into politics.
Speaker 1: But yeah, Obama era kind of turned me off. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I thought, like, you know, if if if a guy
Speaker 1: this brilliant and this committed to uh political ambition. UM
Speaker 1: can get into a position of power like this and
Speaker 1: have such a hard time UM sort of reconciling his
Speaker 1: own biography around racial justice and his own governance strategy.
Speaker 1: It just seemed it was a little depressing. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time frustrating with his first
Speaker 1: term and very hopeful for his second term, and the
Speaker 1: two together left me UM kind of disenchanted. You know,
Speaker 1: even to this day. I think there's like a pill
Speaker 1: that you get when you become elected to these uh
Speaker 1: senior leadership roles, whether it's in Congress or in a
Speaker 1: state house or in the White House, and you know,
Speaker 1: you come in and you're like, all right, let's get
Speaker 1: this shit done. Let's get let's let's do it. And
Speaker 1: then someone like slips you a mickey, and you're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we have to follow the rules just as they have
Speaker 1: been followed, and we're going to do these few disabuse
Speaker 1: him of his notions educated I'm not. I'm actually gonna
Speaker 1: put it in maybe at the context that is familiar.
Speaker 1: I think about the president of a university, right, Um,
Speaker 1: the president of a university kind of has power but
Speaker 1: maybe the deans have more power than the president does.
Speaker 1: Right in some ways the dean of in my school.
Speaker 1: But don't the deans, I mean in some ways. So
Speaker 1: you're the president, but you kind of you have all
Speaker 1: these people who have their own little fiefdoms, right like
Speaker 1: all of you know, journalism, the liberal or the school
Speaker 1: of you know law. They have their own budgets, they
Speaker 1: have their own little like worlds that they that they govern. Um.
Speaker 1: And so you can kind of get them to do things,
Speaker 1: but you just you're not the dictator, you know, like
Speaker 1: you have to. So the president's not a dictator. The
Speaker 1: president is sort of the one who can try to
Speaker 1: cajole the people and the and the people who are
Speaker 1: in charge, whether it's a congressional committee or it's a
Speaker 1: governor or you know, whatever it is, they have a
Speaker 1: say on what the president gets to do. Um. Now,
Speaker 1: some people don't care about the rules. We had a
Speaker 1: president like that from twenty seventeen. We've had a few
Speaker 1: of those, but what one very recently, they don't care.
Speaker 1: They do whatever they think, whatever they want. That tends
Speaker 1: to not end well, um for those people, because you know,
Speaker 1: you sort of have you have to. It's the consent
Speaker 1: of the government. And I think if the if the
Speaker 1: if the population is split about what it wants, it
Speaker 1: is very hard for the president to muscle through big
Speaker 1: ideas against the will of say fifty percent of the people.
Speaker 1: You can do that maybe once, maybe twice, and one
Speaker 1: might argue healthcare could have been one of those times
Speaker 1: for the president President Obama. It's very hard to do
Speaker 1: that insistently. Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I think that
Speaker 1: I'm curious since you were part of the Clinton administration
Speaker 1: and you were a young buck like you know, like
Speaker 1: we all were back when we were in our twenties.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that was a consequential presidency. A
Speaker 1: lot of big things happened, and of course in hindsight,
Speaker 1: from the crime bill to the Welfare reform bill, which
Speaker 1: you know, gut it a lot of the social safety
Speaker 1: net to the poorest Americans. You know, how did you
Speaker 1: experience that period working in the Clinton administration? What what
Speaker 1: what is your sense of how you experienced that then
Speaker 1: as compared to what you've just been through. So those
Speaker 1: things happened, The crime bill happened, the Welfare reform bill happened.
Speaker 1: I will say the welfare reform bill happened, and both
Speaker 1: of those happened with a lot of support from unlikely places. Today,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people today who were complaining
Speaker 1: about those bills, who were in favor of them at
Speaker 1: the time. So you know, but the history is that
Speaker 1: but including members of the Congressional Black Hawks, absolutely, a
Speaker 1: lot of mayors of big cities, a lot of members
Speaker 1: of Congressional Black Caukis. But at the same time, during
Speaker 1: that era, you also saw a profound amount of growth
Speaker 1: in black wealth. You saw more black homeownership, you saw
Speaker 1: the lowest black unemployment, you saw more black kids going
Speaker 1: to college, you saw higher incomes among African Americans beginning
Speaker 1: to go up. The debt of the government was sort
Speaker 1: of going down. So the economic prospects for black people
Speaker 1: actually were improving, while of course, you had these social
Speaker 1: costs on the other side that we all look back
Speaker 1: and say they probably we went to far and some
Speaker 1: of those social things, the crime bill being the big one.
Speaker 1: But you can also look at the crime bill not
Speaker 1: to make excuses for it. This is just the politics
Speaker 1: of sausage making. While there were these horror punitive laws
Speaker 1: that put people in jail for a long period of time.
Speaker 1: There also was the Violence Against Women Act. There also
Speaker 1: was an assault weapons band that was in that bill.
Speaker 1: We haven't been able to get an assault weapons band
Speaker 1: passed since that bill was done. So there are things
Speaker 1: sometimes in politics that you feel like you have to
Speaker 1: do something you don't like in order to get something
Speaker 1: done that you think will actually be something you like
Speaker 1: and you want to see done. You can shut down
Speaker 1: the bad stuff before it gets to be too bad.
Speaker 1: If it's if you start, you are doing your job.
Speaker 1: You are modeling your job right now giving us. You
Speaker 1: are a schooling us on how to sell the communic Listen,
Speaker 1: this was such a great conversation, was so great talking
Speaker 1: to you. We are just so happy that you made
Speaker 1: time for us. We appreciate the you sharing sensitive government
Speaker 1: secrets with us. We appreciate you helping to make sense
Speaker 1: of the conflictated things that happened behind the scenes of
Speaker 1: the White House, and we look forward to what comes
Speaker 1: next for you and for Vice President Kamala Harris. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you, and this is my first podcast interview since
Speaker 1: leaving the White House, so I am excited to do it.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you guys having me, and I'm looking forward
Speaker 1: to more episodes to find out who some of your
Speaker 1: best friends right on, Jamal, right on, Jamal, You got it?
Speaker 1: Thanks man, all right, thanks guys, Khalil. We broke some
Speaker 1: news on this episode on Some of my best friends
Speaker 1: are today we are. This is amazing and so by
Speaker 1: my account, I think we broke three things three story. One,
Speaker 1: Joe Biden is running in twenty twenty four. Two. Kamala Harris,
Speaker 1: despite all the criticism, is going to be his running
Speaker 1: mate in twenty twenty four. We heard it here first,
Speaker 1: some of my best friends are number three. The next
Speaker 1: time there's an opening, Kamala Harris is gonna run. She's
Speaker 1: going to be at the top of the ticket. Yeah. Man,
Speaker 1: that's that's really, that's such important news. We did this, man,
Speaker 1: we did this together. Listen. Awesome, but no, seriously, man,
Speaker 1: I mean listen, this is high stakes politics, right. We
Speaker 1: really are talking about a country on the precipice, and
Speaker 1: the fact that that's where we've come at this moment
Speaker 1: in terms of national politics means that this next presidential
Speaker 1: race is probably more important than the last two we've had.
Speaker 1: And I mean for real, So in light of that,
Speaker 1: I mean, I took a lot of inspiration from Jamal's
Speaker 1: insights about Kamala Harris, I have, you know, much better
Speaker 1: sense of who she is as a person, and amazing,
Speaker 1: amazing to get to speak with him. I mean, he
Speaker 1: really gave us an an insider's view, that's right. But
Speaker 1: there's one thing that I just want to sort of
Speaker 1: think about because I think it matters. You know. He
Speaker 1: talked about how leaders lead and active do their thing,
Speaker 1: and often the activists have to push the leaders in
Speaker 1: order for them to be effective. And while I think
Speaker 1: maybe on paper that's generally true, it's not always true
Speaker 1: in practice. And I'm thinking about when in the middle
Speaker 1: of Black Lives Matter during the Obama administration. I know
Speaker 1: people like Deray McKesson actually know him as a personal friend,
Speaker 1: and he talked about being at the White House and
Speaker 1: talking to Obama and he basically said like they weren't listening,
Speaker 1: and they were basically saying, like, you guys are messing
Speaker 1: it up, because we got this. And so I just
Speaker 1: want to say for the record that we have to
Speaker 1: not take for granted that our leaders are actually going
Speaker 1: to respond when activists are doing their work, and that
Speaker 1: that way, Kamala potentially will have an amazing presidency if
Speaker 1: everybody keeps their eyes focused on the issues that will
Speaker 1: save this democracy. That's interesting because I'm thinking about that
Speaker 1: what you just said, and I'm thinking about all we
Speaker 1: learned from Jamal, because I certainly have a better understanding
Speaker 1: of what a vice president does and all the limitations
Speaker 1: on her, and that when he was talking about how
Speaker 1: you can't outshine the president or necessarily disagree, he said,
Speaker 1: you have one bite of that apple, you maybe you
Speaker 1: can do it once. And so so that sense of
Speaker 1: being of being limited by this role, which is largely
Speaker 1: symbolic and political, and so what you were just describing
Speaker 1: of in the VP role for Kamala Harris, how you
Speaker 1: could how you could then sort of push policy beyond
Speaker 1: where it is. One of the things I've been thinking
Speaker 1: about in from this talk is like that she the
Speaker 1: moments when she has shined are in these symbolic spaces
Speaker 1: when she's spoken to the issues that you're talking about,
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, you know, I haven't felt like I
Speaker 1: haven't seen her around and do the kind of things
Speaker 1: you're just describing, and I mean, maybe there's even more
Speaker 1: she can do in those spaces. Is that feel symbolic,
Speaker 1: but also feel like they're they're touching the most critical
Speaker 1: issues of the country at the same time. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: I'll just say, I mean, we learn from Jamal that
Speaker 1: vice president's job is primarily to stay alive in case
Speaker 1: they're they need to become president and to break votes
Speaker 1: in Congress. My suggestion is really about if she does
Speaker 1: become president, I mean, yeah, whenever that happens, and what
Speaker 1: we hope will be her ability to literally save the democracy,
Speaker 1: to pursue a scale of equity and justice in this
Speaker 1: country that we've not yet seen, and deliver on the
Speaker 1: promise that being a black woman, or a black Asian
Speaker 1: or any kind of first means more than just the
Speaker 1: symbolic and representational pride that comes with it. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I think a lot about sharing her identity politics
Speaker 1: and not say sharing her politics her policies. But I
Speaker 1: appreciated what Jamal said about that we don't really know
Speaker 1: her yet and that a presidential campaign is also a
Speaker 1: process of getting to know somebody, and we're going to
Speaker 1: learn more about her and she's also going to continue
Speaker 1: to fill this role. So this was really a valuable
Speaker 1: talk and I appreciate you. All Right, Love You Man,
Speaker 1: Love You Too. Some of My Best Friends Are is
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written and
Speaker 1: hosted by me Khalil, Jibron Mohammed and my best friend
Speaker 1: Ben Austin. This show is produced by Lucy Sullivan. Our
Speaker 1: editor is Sarah Knicks, our engineer is Amanda Kawang, and
Speaker 1: our managing producer is Cottonstanza Gallardo. At Pushkin thanks to
Speaker 1: Leita Mulad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, John Schnars,
Speaker 1: Gretta Kone and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily,
Speaker 1: is by fellow chicagoan the Brilliant A. R. Young from
Speaker 1: his album Tubman. You definitely want to check out his
Speaker 1: music at his website Avery R. Young dot com. You
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