1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:22,316 Speaker 1: Pushing. I have this moment where I'm like, Okay, I'm 2 00:00:22,356 --> 00:00:24,436 Speaker 1: on the I'm on air force to briefing the vice 3 00:00:24,476 --> 00:00:27,276 Speaker 1: president in her private cabin and I'm about to say, 4 00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:32,996 Speaker 1: that's the good stuff, man, that's the story. Away from 5 00:00:33,036 --> 00:00:35,276 Speaker 1: the West Side of Detroit, Brothers, it's a long way 6 00:00:35,356 --> 00:00:44,956 Speaker 1: from Dexter. I'm Khalil Jabr Muhammad. I'm Ben Austin. We 7 00:00:45,076 --> 00:00:49,036 Speaker 1: are two best friends, one black, one white. I'm a 8 00:00:49,116 --> 00:00:52,036 Speaker 1: historian and I'm a journalist. And this is some of 9 00:00:52,076 --> 00:00:55,476 Speaker 1: my best friends are some of my best friends are like, 10 00:00:55,876 --> 00:00:58,996 Speaker 1: I don't hate establishment democrats. Some of my best friends 11 00:00:58,996 --> 00:01:03,716 Speaker 1: are establishment democrats. You got it. So in this show, 12 00:01:04,316 --> 00:01:07,916 Speaker 1: we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a 13 00:01:07,996 --> 00:01:11,836 Speaker 1: deeply divided and unequal country. And today we're going to 14 00:01:11,876 --> 00:01:15,516 Speaker 1: consider the future of the US presidency. Joe Biden's getting 15 00:01:15,596 --> 00:01:18,276 Speaker 1: up there in age and his vice President, Kamala Harris 16 00:01:18,676 --> 00:01:20,756 Speaker 1: is next in line for the presidency. We're going to 17 00:01:20,876 --> 00:01:23,476 Speaker 1: talk about who she is with someone who knows her 18 00:01:23,796 --> 00:01:27,396 Speaker 1: better than any of our best friends, Jamal Simmons, who 19 00:01:27,436 --> 00:01:30,876 Speaker 1: was the communication directors for Kamala Harris, and he happens 20 00:01:30,876 --> 00:01:33,516 Speaker 1: to also be an old friend of ours, and listen, 21 00:01:33,676 --> 00:01:37,196 Speaker 1: this is his first podcast interview since he left the 22 00:01:37,236 --> 00:01:40,916 Speaker 1: White House. This is a scoop, So let's do it. 23 00:01:45,356 --> 00:01:54,636 Speaker 1: Last baby's dad, so Khalil, the President of the United States, 24 00:01:54,636 --> 00:02:00,676 Speaker 1: our President, Joe Biden, is eighty years old. Yes, yes, eighty, 25 00:02:00,996 --> 00:02:07,596 Speaker 1: or I should say old af And my wife Danielle, 26 00:02:07,636 --> 00:02:11,356 Speaker 1: was recently in Arizona to visit her uncle and aunt, 27 00:02:11,996 --> 00:02:15,116 Speaker 1: and she ended up watching the State of the Union 28 00:02:15,596 --> 00:02:19,316 Speaker 1: with all these eighty year olds and because you know, 29 00:02:19,356 --> 00:02:21,916 Speaker 1: they're they're they're from Chicago, but they went down there 30 00:02:21,956 --> 00:02:27,276 Speaker 1: to kind of like Winter's right, and so she's watching 31 00:02:27,276 --> 00:02:28,956 Speaker 1: it with them, and you know, all these eighty year 32 00:02:28,956 --> 00:02:32,396 Speaker 1: olds are commenting on his his age and how he looks, 33 00:02:32,396 --> 00:02:34,676 Speaker 1: and whether he's had work done on his face, and 34 00:02:34,756 --> 00:02:38,756 Speaker 1: like how he's moving with with my cousin who I 35 00:02:38,756 --> 00:02:40,796 Speaker 1: was watching it with, whether he had botox or not, 36 00:02:40,956 --> 00:02:43,556 Speaker 1: let's just name it, like, you know, look pretty clear 37 00:02:43,596 --> 00:02:46,116 Speaker 1: to me, you know. And so the whole question of 38 00:02:46,156 --> 00:02:49,356 Speaker 1: his age was was so even more present in that 39 00:02:49,436 --> 00:02:52,716 Speaker 1: viewing for her, because um, it wasn't just how young 40 00:02:52,756 --> 00:02:55,876 Speaker 1: people view him, it's it's how his actual peers view him. 41 00:02:55,996 --> 00:02:58,916 Speaker 1: And you know, man, They're like, I'm not. I'm not. 42 00:02:59,036 --> 00:03:01,436 Speaker 1: I'm retired. I'm not. I'm not. I don't have the 43 00:03:01,436 --> 00:03:06,196 Speaker 1: biggest job in the world right now. Yeah, they're basically saying, 44 00:03:06,716 --> 00:03:11,636 Speaker 1: I don't even think it's a good idea that this 45 00:03:11,676 --> 00:03:15,436 Speaker 1: guy is is gearing up to maybe run for a 46 00:03:15,556 --> 00:03:19,836 Speaker 1: second term. Yeah. Yeah, that's ah, that is the question, right, 47 00:03:19,956 --> 00:03:24,316 Speaker 1: and so much the question that I was watching it 48 00:03:24,396 --> 00:03:27,156 Speaker 1: and looking at Kamala Harris the whole time, and it's 49 00:03:27,196 --> 00:03:29,956 Speaker 1: been behind him, over his right shoulder as they do, 50 00:03:30,076 --> 00:03:32,476 Speaker 1: like that's how it works. Yeah, yeah, you know. I mean, 51 00:03:32,556 --> 00:03:35,796 Speaker 1: and I have to say, like watching her in this role, 52 00:03:36,396 --> 00:03:40,196 Speaker 1: in this back half of the Biden presidency, these next 53 00:03:40,236 --> 00:03:43,556 Speaker 1: two years where the Republicans have now taken majority, and 54 00:03:43,676 --> 00:03:46,956 Speaker 1: she's sitting next to the speaker Kevin McCarthy as opposed 55 00:03:46,996 --> 00:03:50,916 Speaker 1: to Nancy Pelosi, right, I mean, it did hit me differently. 56 00:03:51,116 --> 00:03:53,916 Speaker 1: And I have to say I had a lot more 57 00:03:53,996 --> 00:03:57,996 Speaker 1: pride in just seeing her in that role symbolically than 58 00:03:58,076 --> 00:04:00,916 Speaker 1: I than I remember having when I watched her next 59 00:04:00,916 --> 00:04:05,596 Speaker 1: to Nancy Pelosi. Um and yeah, and it had me 60 00:04:05,636 --> 00:04:10,196 Speaker 1: thinking a lot about how Biden's own decision to run 61 00:04:10,276 --> 00:04:14,676 Speaker 1: for a second term has huge implications for whether or 62 00:04:14,716 --> 00:04:19,076 Speaker 1: not Kamala Harris will be the presumptive nominee in a 63 00:04:19,156 --> 00:04:21,716 Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight race, because at that point there'll be 64 00:04:21,716 --> 00:04:24,996 Speaker 1: no question she's served two years or two terms in 65 00:04:24,996 --> 00:04:27,676 Speaker 1: this vice presidential role. Yeah, I mean, that's what we're 66 00:04:27,716 --> 00:04:29,436 Speaker 1: going to try to unpack today. What we're going to 67 00:04:29,476 --> 00:04:32,756 Speaker 1: talk about is this attention on Kamala Harris, because when 68 00:04:32,796 --> 00:04:35,156 Speaker 1: you do have an eighty year old president man the 69 00:04:35,276 --> 00:04:41,396 Speaker 1: vice president, it means something, right in one sense, like yeah, yeah, man, 70 00:04:41,476 --> 00:04:44,156 Speaker 1: she could be president next week. That has a lot 71 00:04:44,156 --> 00:04:46,396 Speaker 1: of scrutiny on her because of this. That's right, there's 72 00:04:46,396 --> 00:04:48,476 Speaker 1: so much scrutiny. By the way that the New York 73 00:04:48,476 --> 00:04:51,996 Speaker 1: Times ran a pretty significant story reported by some of 74 00:04:52,036 --> 00:04:55,996 Speaker 1: their top political reporters who had access to the high 75 00:04:56,036 --> 00:05:00,276 Speaker 1: ranking Democrats in the White House, who expressed some concern 76 00:05:00,836 --> 00:05:04,076 Speaker 1: about whether or not she actually would be a liability 77 00:05:04,116 --> 00:05:07,396 Speaker 1: for the ticket in twenty twenty four. You're saying, Khalil 78 00:05:07,436 --> 00:05:10,956 Speaker 1: that even if she's just on the ticket as vice president, 79 00:05:11,156 --> 00:05:14,236 Speaker 1: that's somehow that's a liability for Biden, like it might 80 00:05:14,356 --> 00:05:17,796 Speaker 1: mean that a Trump or around the Santas the governor 81 00:05:17,796 --> 00:05:20,836 Speaker 1: from Florida, they might win because because she's just even 82 00:05:20,916 --> 00:05:23,796 Speaker 1: part of the ticket. Again, well, yes, and I'm saying 83 00:05:23,836 --> 00:05:27,796 Speaker 1: that's what the New York Times is reporting, because she 84 00:05:27,836 --> 00:05:32,116 Speaker 1: would be that much closer to potentially inheriting the presidency 85 00:05:32,356 --> 00:05:35,236 Speaker 1: in light of the fact that Biden might either not 86 00:05:35,356 --> 00:05:37,956 Speaker 1: make it through his term or might be incapacitated. I mean, 87 00:05:38,196 --> 00:05:40,356 Speaker 1: you know, just as a matter of history, this is 88 00:05:40,396 --> 00:05:43,756 Speaker 1: not abstraction. The notion of someone dying in office is 89 00:05:43,756 --> 00:05:46,316 Speaker 1: a very real thing, and Democrats are suggesting that she 90 00:05:46,436 --> 00:05:49,156 Speaker 1: might be a liability if in fact people start calculating 91 00:05:49,156 --> 00:05:51,476 Speaker 1: whether or not Joe Biden can make it through the 92 00:05:51,556 --> 00:05:54,116 Speaker 1: end of his term. And so all of this makes 93 00:05:54,116 --> 00:05:58,036 Speaker 1: me think, like there's such a need to assess Kamala 94 00:05:58,076 --> 00:06:00,836 Speaker 1: Harris and the role she's done as Vice president and 95 00:06:00,876 --> 00:06:03,956 Speaker 1: who she is and what her values are, and you know, 96 00:06:04,276 --> 00:06:07,196 Speaker 1: maybe how she might govern in a much more like, 97 00:06:07,356 --> 00:06:10,316 Speaker 1: you know, in a serious way, and to understand more 98 00:06:10,316 --> 00:06:12,596 Speaker 1: about her because you know, so this idea of her 99 00:06:12,636 --> 00:06:15,436 Speaker 1: being the VP and being, as you said, like feeling 100 00:06:15,436 --> 00:06:17,756 Speaker 1: this kind of pride there's a woman of color there 101 00:06:17,796 --> 00:06:20,036 Speaker 1: in this role the first time ever. Yeah, Yeah, she's 102 00:06:20,036 --> 00:06:22,436 Speaker 1: a first she's a first Black woman in this role, 103 00:06:22,436 --> 00:06:25,156 Speaker 1: and she's a first Asian American woman in this role. 104 00:06:25,556 --> 00:06:28,596 Speaker 1: And and you know, I mean that Times article talked 105 00:06:28,636 --> 00:06:30,676 Speaker 1: about some of this of sort of that the that 106 00:06:30,876 --> 00:06:33,396 Speaker 1: role of her, how her race and gender plays into 107 00:06:33,436 --> 00:06:36,316 Speaker 1: some of this, and even as as slights um there's 108 00:06:36,356 --> 00:06:38,076 Speaker 1: this one note in there of like when she goes 109 00:06:38,076 --> 00:06:40,556 Speaker 1: on these foreign trips and meets dignitaries and you know, 110 00:06:40,596 --> 00:06:44,436 Speaker 1: the vice presidents of other countries, they try to introduce 111 00:06:44,476 --> 00:06:46,836 Speaker 1: her set up meetings with the first ladies of these 112 00:06:46,836 --> 00:06:50,436 Speaker 1: other kinds. That crazy and She's like, Nah, I'm not 113 00:06:50,476 --> 00:06:52,676 Speaker 1: doing that. That that's not That's not what I'm about. 114 00:06:52,916 --> 00:06:56,316 Speaker 1: That's like yeah, so I want to think more about 115 00:06:56,356 --> 00:07:02,156 Speaker 1: about her identity, politics, her actual politics. And also like, man, 116 00:07:02,516 --> 00:07:04,996 Speaker 1: you know, what is a vice president? What are they 117 00:07:05,036 --> 00:07:06,836 Speaker 1: supposed to do? What are what are we supposed to 118 00:07:06,916 --> 00:07:09,036 Speaker 1: expect from them? Are we holding her to a standard 119 00:07:09,156 --> 00:07:13,276 Speaker 1: that's unfair or not? And well need to find out 120 00:07:13,316 --> 00:07:17,876 Speaker 1: more that's right. And on this point, her former communications 121 00:07:17,876 --> 00:07:22,356 Speaker 1: director Jamal Simmons, who only stepped down in the last 122 00:07:22,396 --> 00:07:26,156 Speaker 1: few weeks. And guess what, we get to talk to him. 123 00:07:26,836 --> 00:07:29,276 Speaker 1: That's who we have on today Jamal Simmons, who's been 124 00:07:29,276 --> 00:07:32,956 Speaker 1: a longtime friend of ours. He worked as Kamala Harris's 125 00:07:32,956 --> 00:07:36,476 Speaker 1: communications director for all of twenty twenty two. He held 126 00:07:36,476 --> 00:07:39,716 Speaker 1: this position for a year. He is our friend, and 127 00:07:39,796 --> 00:07:43,516 Speaker 1: he is going to be our Kamala Harris explainer. That's right, 128 00:07:43,676 --> 00:07:46,196 Speaker 1: we're gonna learn a lot more about her from someone 129 00:07:46,276 --> 00:07:48,676 Speaker 1: who's one of our best friends who can give us 130 00:07:48,716 --> 00:07:56,436 Speaker 1: the inside scoop. Let's do it. Jamal, what's up, my man. 131 00:07:56,476 --> 00:07:59,396 Speaker 1: It's great to see you. It's good to see you guys. First, 132 00:07:59,396 --> 00:08:02,796 Speaker 1: I want to say that we've known each other since college. 133 00:08:03,276 --> 00:08:05,756 Speaker 1: You know, you were in Morehouse and you were friends 134 00:08:05,796 --> 00:08:08,476 Speaker 1: with Danielle who is now my wife, and she and 135 00:08:08,516 --> 00:08:10,436 Speaker 1: I were dating then, and she was going to school 136 00:08:10,436 --> 00:08:13,796 Speaker 1: in Atlanta too, and so yeah, we've actually been friends 137 00:08:13,796 --> 00:08:15,756 Speaker 1: since then. I mean, that's been been a little bit. 138 00:08:16,396 --> 00:08:18,516 Speaker 1: And the first thing I want to say, is you 139 00:08:18,596 --> 00:08:22,316 Speaker 1: getting this job as the communications director for the vice 140 00:08:22,436 --> 00:08:25,836 Speaker 1: president of the United States. I was just I just 141 00:08:26,316 --> 00:08:29,156 Speaker 1: I just felt immense pride. So I just felt pride. 142 00:08:30,636 --> 00:08:33,476 Speaker 1: I appreciate that it was a it was a good 143 00:08:33,516 --> 00:08:36,796 Speaker 1: time and honor and a privilege, you know, to be there, 144 00:08:37,116 --> 00:08:40,756 Speaker 1: and uh, I felt the moral support that I was 145 00:08:40,796 --> 00:08:44,876 Speaker 1: getting even though I was exhausted all of the time. 146 00:08:46,276 --> 00:08:48,516 Speaker 1: We can only imagine that we want to hear it. 147 00:08:48,516 --> 00:08:52,036 Speaker 1: We want to hear exactly what makes one exhausted in 148 00:08:52,076 --> 00:08:55,436 Speaker 1: the White House. So listen, um, I mean, I'm a historian, 149 00:08:55,476 --> 00:08:58,156 Speaker 1: Ben's a journalist, but neither one of us are political junkies, 150 00:08:58,276 --> 00:09:00,356 Speaker 1: certainly not in the way you are. And while we 151 00:09:00,396 --> 00:09:03,996 Speaker 1: pay close attention to what's happening in the country nationally obviously, 152 00:09:04,956 --> 00:09:08,556 Speaker 1: but but here you are coming off of being the 153 00:09:08,596 --> 00:09:11,476 Speaker 1: man in charge of the messaging of the vice President 154 00:09:11,596 --> 00:09:14,196 Speaker 1: of the United States of America. So tell us exactly 155 00:09:14,236 --> 00:09:16,476 Speaker 1: what you did. Yeah, I mean, I gotta. I actually 156 00:09:16,516 --> 00:09:18,196 Speaker 1: I'm proud of him, but I don't I don't have 157 00:09:18,236 --> 00:09:20,316 Speaker 1: no clue what he actually was it where you're just 158 00:09:20,396 --> 00:09:23,316 Speaker 1: are proving emails to send out under her name, I mean, 159 00:09:23,516 --> 00:09:26,236 Speaker 1: that's that's probably what it was. I would say all 160 00:09:26,276 --> 00:09:29,196 Speaker 1: of the above, right, So I'll just tell you this. 161 00:09:29,396 --> 00:09:32,196 Speaker 1: My first day in the office was January tenth of 162 00:09:32,756 --> 00:09:37,596 Speaker 1: two thousand and twenty two, and I got about four 163 00:09:37,716 --> 00:09:41,116 Speaker 1: hundred and eighty seven emails that day I count it, 164 00:09:41,756 --> 00:09:43,076 Speaker 1: and some of them you can kind of get rid 165 00:09:43,076 --> 00:09:45,316 Speaker 1: of immediately because they don't believe I mean that they matter, 166 00:09:45,356 --> 00:09:47,156 Speaker 1: But it's just like somebody sending you a press release 167 00:09:47,196 --> 00:09:50,996 Speaker 1: about an announcement somewhere. Some of them, though, are conversations 168 00:09:50,996 --> 00:09:54,876 Speaker 1: that are happening between people. But ultimately the communications director's 169 00:09:54,956 --> 00:09:58,196 Speaker 1: job is to figure out all the ways the vice 170 00:09:58,196 --> 00:10:02,796 Speaker 1: president is engaging in the public through media speeches. In 171 00:10:02,916 --> 00:10:06,836 Speaker 1: my office, I had the director's speech writing, the press secretary, 172 00:10:07,476 --> 00:10:12,476 Speaker 1: the digital director um and then a communication staff and 173 00:10:12,516 --> 00:10:14,556 Speaker 1: so all those people reported to me, and the idea 174 00:10:14,716 --> 00:10:17,476 Speaker 1: was that we should all be saying the same thing 175 00:10:17,756 --> 00:10:21,116 Speaker 1: on the same day, okay, And so that was the 176 00:10:21,236 --> 00:10:24,116 Speaker 1: job was to figure out, you know, with my colleagues 177 00:10:24,156 --> 00:10:26,516 Speaker 1: and the other departments and the Vice President, what is 178 00:10:26,556 --> 00:10:28,876 Speaker 1: it that we want to talk about on Tuesday, and 179 00:10:29,236 --> 00:10:32,196 Speaker 1: how is it that we're going to communicate that message 180 00:10:32,236 --> 00:10:35,116 Speaker 1: to as many people as possible, and what venues are 181 00:10:35,116 --> 00:10:36,836 Speaker 1: we going to do it? And then we present that 182 00:10:36,876 --> 00:10:39,156 Speaker 1: to the Vice President and then she crosses off fifty 183 00:10:39,156 --> 00:10:40,996 Speaker 1: percent of what it is, we say, add in a 184 00:10:41,036 --> 00:10:43,196 Speaker 1: bunch of more, and then you know, she goes out 185 00:10:43,236 --> 00:10:45,396 Speaker 1: and said and and and tell us a story of 186 00:10:45,436 --> 00:10:47,276 Speaker 1: like a time that that you came up with a 187 00:10:47,356 --> 00:10:49,676 Speaker 1: message and it went south or something where it was 188 00:10:49,716 --> 00:10:54,436 Speaker 1: like really tricky. Um, well we're luckily, I will say 189 00:10:54,676 --> 00:10:57,036 Speaker 1: I didn't have any experiences where things went south. There 190 00:10:57,036 --> 00:10:59,516 Speaker 1: were some experiences I think people had before I got there. 191 00:10:59,756 --> 00:11:03,036 Speaker 1: Um And and as you know, I would just say, 192 00:11:03,116 --> 00:11:05,556 Speaker 1: all these success was hers, all the mistakes were mine. 193 00:11:05,836 --> 00:11:14,436 Speaker 1: Uma that next job look a no. But you know, 194 00:11:14,956 --> 00:11:17,556 Speaker 1: the big thing is she actually knows a lot about 195 00:11:17,596 --> 00:11:19,796 Speaker 1: what she wants to say. The thing that I remember 196 00:11:20,196 --> 00:11:24,756 Speaker 1: about Kamala Harris is that she's been her entire early 197 00:11:24,796 --> 00:11:27,156 Speaker 1: part of her career as a prosecutor. So like many 198 00:11:27,196 --> 00:11:31,596 Speaker 1: of us when we start learning our jobs, those lessons 199 00:11:31,636 --> 00:11:34,236 Speaker 1: that we learned very early to stick with us throughout 200 00:11:34,276 --> 00:11:37,156 Speaker 1: the rest of our careers. So for her, words have 201 00:11:37,196 --> 00:11:39,276 Speaker 1: a lot of meaning because, as she would say, when 202 00:11:39,316 --> 00:11:41,236 Speaker 1: she would get up in front of the public and 203 00:11:41,476 --> 00:11:45,036 Speaker 1: talk to the press, it was usually about somebody's freedom, 204 00:11:45,396 --> 00:11:47,916 Speaker 1: right because if she was going to prosecute somebody, they 205 00:11:47,956 --> 00:11:50,996 Speaker 1: may go to jail. Or was about a family that 206 00:11:51,036 --> 00:11:53,596 Speaker 1: was in pain because something had occurred to them and 207 00:11:53,636 --> 00:11:57,796 Speaker 1: she felt some responsibility to them. So that always informed 208 00:11:57,876 --> 00:12:01,516 Speaker 1: what the word choices. She would make the way she 209 00:12:01,556 --> 00:12:05,036 Speaker 1: wanted to communicate. Sometimes I would say she could have 210 00:12:05,076 --> 00:12:08,076 Speaker 1: been a little bit more rhetorical. I wanted her to 211 00:12:08,156 --> 00:12:10,756 Speaker 1: sometimes be a little bit more um, you know, a 212 00:12:10,796 --> 00:12:13,836 Speaker 1: little more political flourish or kind of a you know, 213 00:12:14,036 --> 00:12:17,076 Speaker 1: a bigger story. But I think her response to say 214 00:12:17,196 --> 00:12:20,876 Speaker 1: that she was not that funny is that sounds like 215 00:12:22,156 --> 00:12:25,996 Speaker 1: she just because I was serious. Yeah, she could just 216 00:12:26,236 --> 00:12:28,476 Speaker 1: I don't think of I don't I don't think of 217 00:12:28,516 --> 00:12:31,436 Speaker 1: a single prosecutor who I've ever heard actually told a 218 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:38,036 Speaker 1: joke that anybody was interested in laughing. She needed to 219 00:12:38,076 --> 00:12:40,516 Speaker 1: loosen up. She would never tell jokes, you know, in 220 00:12:40,556 --> 00:12:43,476 Speaker 1: that environment, right, because it's usually a very serious environment. 221 00:12:43,716 --> 00:12:46,676 Speaker 1: So I think the thing that I always hope that 222 00:12:46,676 --> 00:12:49,116 Speaker 1: she would do more of, which was which was be 223 00:12:49,156 --> 00:12:52,076 Speaker 1: a little more funny, be a little more personally revealing, 224 00:12:52,716 --> 00:12:57,196 Speaker 1: um and uh, you know, talk more about the bigger picture. 225 00:12:57,476 --> 00:12:59,676 Speaker 1: But she always wants to take the bigger picture and 226 00:12:59,716 --> 00:13:02,276 Speaker 1: then figure out, like what way to make it real 227 00:13:02,316 --> 00:13:05,676 Speaker 1: to people in very concrete ways. Uh. And that's kind 228 00:13:05,716 --> 00:13:08,596 Speaker 1: of her brand, is like you know, what does this mean. 229 00:13:08,636 --> 00:13:12,196 Speaker 1: We're gonna we passed this huge bill. We're gonna spend 230 00:13:12,236 --> 00:13:14,916 Speaker 1: a bunch of money on infrastructure. I'm in Chicago today. 231 00:13:15,316 --> 00:13:18,836 Speaker 1: Tell me about the stretch on Wabash, you know, Avenue 232 00:13:18,876 --> 00:13:24,396 Speaker 1: or whatever. Tell me about that. That's the that's the original, 233 00:13:24,756 --> 00:13:29,796 Speaker 1: that's the original, coldish pronunciation. He's got he's got more 234 00:13:29,876 --> 00:13:34,676 Speaker 1: roots than we do. He's like, he researched this. I 235 00:13:34,756 --> 00:13:42,836 Speaker 1: love its right. So and then we're looking for jokes 236 00:13:42,876 --> 00:13:44,636 Speaker 1: wherever we could find. I love it. I'll take it. 237 00:13:44,676 --> 00:13:47,316 Speaker 1: I'll take it. The White House. It's like a joke 238 00:13:47,396 --> 00:13:51,276 Speaker 1: free environment. So I'll get my joke game back up, 239 00:13:51,836 --> 00:13:54,116 Speaker 1: and and and and what about you, Like, what's the 240 00:13:54,116 --> 00:13:56,556 Speaker 1: moment of this year, of this intense work where you 241 00:13:56,596 --> 00:13:58,796 Speaker 1: probably didn't see your family, you didn't see your young children. 242 00:13:59,036 --> 00:14:01,516 Speaker 1: What's the moment that you're most proud of, like your 243 00:14:01,556 --> 00:14:04,636 Speaker 1: own your own work that you did. You know, there 244 00:14:04,956 --> 00:14:07,436 Speaker 1: are some things that I'm proud of that have really, 245 00:14:07,516 --> 00:14:09,876 Speaker 1: really very little to do with me. So, for instance, 246 00:14:09,916 --> 00:14:14,116 Speaker 1: when the tragedy happened in Buffalo, the shooting, we went 247 00:14:14,116 --> 00:14:16,196 Speaker 1: to Buffalo and the Vice President was just going to 248 00:14:16,276 --> 00:14:18,116 Speaker 1: go to attend a funeral. She was sitting in the 249 00:14:18,116 --> 00:14:20,436 Speaker 1: front row of a pew and they invited her to 250 00:14:20,476 --> 00:14:22,316 Speaker 1: come up and speak, and she got up and spoke 251 00:14:22,436 --> 00:14:24,876 Speaker 1: and gave one of her most compelling addresses. We didn't 252 00:14:24,876 --> 00:14:27,196 Speaker 1: write it. She you know, just got up and gave 253 00:14:27,236 --> 00:14:29,876 Speaker 1: it off the cuff. But then she also went and 254 00:14:29,916 --> 00:14:32,636 Speaker 1: met with some of the families in like the church 255 00:14:32,716 --> 00:14:36,716 Speaker 1: gymnasium and just watching her walk, you know, family and 256 00:14:36,716 --> 00:14:40,356 Speaker 1: the family shaking hands, hugging people, talking about their loved ones, 257 00:14:40,436 --> 00:14:43,436 Speaker 1: talking about the tragedy that had occurred. And I said 258 00:14:43,436 --> 00:14:46,156 Speaker 1: to her, like, wow, this is like, you know, you 259 00:14:46,196 --> 00:14:48,756 Speaker 1: were really you know, you were really kind of good 260 00:14:48,796 --> 00:14:51,356 Speaker 1: in there, Like she said, you know, I spent my 261 00:14:51,476 --> 00:14:55,356 Speaker 1: entire career talking to people in pain, and she had 262 00:14:55,436 --> 00:14:58,836 Speaker 1: a really you know way of talking to people who 263 00:14:58,876 --> 00:15:01,516 Speaker 1: were experiencing like a profound moment of grief. And I 264 00:15:01,556 --> 00:15:04,356 Speaker 1: think those families felt comfort, you know, having her there. 265 00:15:04,516 --> 00:15:07,836 Speaker 1: That was a big day for me. Yeah. Yeah, I 266 00:15:07,876 --> 00:15:10,316 Speaker 1: do have a follow up question though. It's like, you know, 267 00:15:10,356 --> 00:15:13,396 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about about what you said about her skills 268 00:15:13,476 --> 00:15:15,276 Speaker 1: right as a prosecutor, in the way in which she 269 00:15:15,396 --> 00:15:19,556 Speaker 1: was very careful and deliberate in addressing these very serious 270 00:15:19,596 --> 00:15:22,036 Speaker 1: topics before the public, and I'm thinking about like a 271 00:15:22,396 --> 00:15:25,116 Speaker 1: pastor who has to do a lot of eulogies, Like 272 00:15:25,196 --> 00:15:29,516 Speaker 1: there's a certain kind of rhetorical structure that you're accustomed 273 00:15:29,516 --> 00:15:32,916 Speaker 1: to because people are always in pain when you are 274 00:15:33,156 --> 00:15:36,236 Speaker 1: addressing them, and you just have this natural way of 275 00:15:36,916 --> 00:15:40,996 Speaker 1: deliberately walking that line between the kind of you know, 276 00:15:41,076 --> 00:15:43,996 Speaker 1: acknowledgement of that grief as well as the aspiration that 277 00:15:44,036 --> 00:15:47,676 Speaker 1: people want to believe, you know, in in where this 278 00:15:47,716 --> 00:15:50,316 Speaker 1: person is going next. You know, they're heavenly afterlife and 279 00:15:50,356 --> 00:15:53,116 Speaker 1: the family's going to move on. So we just learned 280 00:15:53,196 --> 00:15:58,316 Speaker 1: a little bit more about her gifts. She could be 281 00:15:58,356 --> 00:16:03,316 Speaker 1: a prosecutor, or she could be a pastor, giving you well, 282 00:16:03,356 --> 00:16:05,396 Speaker 1: you know, what's the other thing I'll say. There was 283 00:16:05,676 --> 00:16:08,196 Speaker 1: another big moment which we all know you all sign 284 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:14,676 Speaker 1: the news when the Supreme Court who started to rule 285 00:16:14,836 --> 00:16:17,756 Speaker 1: on Roe v. Way, the Dabb's decision. The first thing 286 00:16:17,796 --> 00:16:21,276 Speaker 1: that happened was the case leaked before it was supposed 287 00:16:21,276 --> 00:16:23,556 Speaker 1: to come out, right, So the case leaked. We go 288 00:16:23,596 --> 00:16:25,916 Speaker 1: into her office. She's supposed to speak at Emily's List 289 00:16:25,916 --> 00:16:28,436 Speaker 1: that night, which is a pro choice women's political organization. 290 00:16:28,596 --> 00:16:30,556 Speaker 1: She's supposed to speak at Emily's List that night. We're 291 00:16:30,556 --> 00:16:33,036 Speaker 1: sitting in her office around around the table and she 292 00:16:33,076 --> 00:16:35,796 Speaker 1: starts talking about the what's come out in the League 293 00:16:35,796 --> 00:16:38,276 Speaker 1: of the decision. She said, if this is true, that 294 00:16:38,316 --> 00:16:40,956 Speaker 1: means they're going to go after privacy rights. That's our freedom, 295 00:16:41,116 --> 00:16:43,236 Speaker 1: that's liberty. She starts like going through this whole list, 296 00:16:43,476 --> 00:16:45,836 Speaker 1: and she starts saying, you know, I mean, who are 297 00:16:45,916 --> 00:16:49,396 Speaker 1: these guys? How dare they do this to American? How 298 00:16:49,516 --> 00:16:51,436 Speaker 1: dare that? And she starts going to this and so 299 00:16:51,476 --> 00:16:52,956 Speaker 1: I'm sitting there and I look at the speech writer 300 00:16:53,076 --> 00:16:56,756 Speaker 1: and I'm like, and so he's you know, they're typing. 301 00:16:56,876 --> 00:16:59,676 Speaker 1: He's typing and she's talking. And so that ended up 302 00:16:59,676 --> 00:17:01,716 Speaker 1: in the speech she gave that night at Emily's List, 303 00:17:01,876 --> 00:17:04,956 Speaker 1: which was one of the most quoted moments for her. Well, 304 00:17:04,996 --> 00:17:09,676 Speaker 1: we say, how dare they? How dare they tell a 305 00:17:09,716 --> 00:17:11,956 Speaker 1: woman what she can do and cannot do with her 306 00:17:11,956 --> 00:17:18,396 Speaker 1: own body? How dare they? How dare they? Is right? Wow, 307 00:17:18,436 --> 00:17:21,516 Speaker 1: what a powerful voice in that moment for Kamala. We're 308 00:17:21,556 --> 00:17:23,796 Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, 309 00:17:23,876 --> 00:17:26,396 Speaker 1: Jamala is gonna make the case for his former boss, 310 00:17:26,796 --> 00:17:41,756 Speaker 1: Vice President Kamala Harris. We are back with Jamal Simmons, 311 00:17:42,196 --> 00:17:46,516 Speaker 1: the former now communications director for the Vice President of 312 00:17:46,556 --> 00:17:50,316 Speaker 1: the United States, Kamala Harris, and he is on Some 313 00:17:50,396 --> 00:17:53,636 Speaker 1: of my best friends are and while most people are clony, 314 00:17:53,716 --> 00:17:56,356 Speaker 1: hear us. We can actually see you, Jamal. And I'm 315 00:17:56,396 --> 00:17:59,796 Speaker 1: seeing these like folders on your desk and some of 316 00:17:59,836 --> 00:18:04,716 Speaker 1: them are more classified, I think in top secret. You 317 00:18:04,796 --> 00:18:10,436 Speaker 1: have all these these documents there, what are those? And 318 00:18:10,476 --> 00:18:13,916 Speaker 1: so for the for the security services that are listening 319 00:18:13,956 --> 00:18:18,036 Speaker 1: to this, these are jokes. These are all just um, 320 00:18:18,116 --> 00:18:20,156 Speaker 1: you know what's funny. What's funny is I was listening 321 00:18:20,156 --> 00:18:23,716 Speaker 1: to this quote unquote scandal. It has been unfolding for 322 00:18:23,756 --> 00:18:26,676 Speaker 1: the last few weeks, and I was thinking about my 323 00:18:26,716 --> 00:18:29,556 Speaker 1: exit from the White House and the briefing that I got. 324 00:18:30,036 --> 00:18:37,316 Speaker 1: Don't get it. Basically, this belongs to you nothing. You 325 00:18:37,556 --> 00:18:40,356 Speaker 1: take the pictures of your kids and you know the 326 00:18:40,396 --> 00:18:42,876 Speaker 1: cards that were given to you. Everything else belongs to 327 00:18:42,916 --> 00:18:44,876 Speaker 1: the government. So you should leave it in this white 328 00:18:44,876 --> 00:18:49,476 Speaker 1: box and good luck. All right, So so listen, we 329 00:18:49,716 --> 00:18:54,316 Speaker 1: we are. We are expectant, like so many people, that 330 00:18:54,676 --> 00:18:59,716 Speaker 1: at minimum, the current Vice President, Kamala Harris, will likely 331 00:18:59,756 --> 00:19:03,276 Speaker 1: be a presidential candidate in twenty twenty four. She was 332 00:19:03,356 --> 00:19:05,836 Speaker 1: once already so this won't be the first time that 333 00:19:05,916 --> 00:19:08,996 Speaker 1: she at least runs in a primary. So we don't 334 00:19:08,996 --> 00:19:11,476 Speaker 1: know Biden's going to do. But let's just say that 335 00:19:11,636 --> 00:19:16,316 Speaker 1: she's in the cards. But before we figure out like 336 00:19:16,716 --> 00:19:19,796 Speaker 1: how to evaluate her as a future presidential candidate, we 337 00:19:19,836 --> 00:19:22,996 Speaker 1: want to have a clearer sense of how to judge 338 00:19:22,996 --> 00:19:25,716 Speaker 1: her as a vice president. So let's just start off 339 00:19:25,716 --> 00:19:28,476 Speaker 1: with a really basic question, what the hell does a 340 00:19:28,596 --> 00:19:31,276 Speaker 1: vice president do? Anyway? Okay, I just want to say 341 00:19:31,276 --> 00:19:33,796 Speaker 1: this one thing. Joe Biden is running for president in 342 00:19:33,836 --> 00:19:37,556 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. So everybody, we just we just broke 343 00:19:37,676 --> 00:19:39,596 Speaker 1: We just broke the news. Ben. This is that we've 344 00:19:39,596 --> 00:19:42,076 Speaker 1: been waiting for this moment for two seasons. We just 345 00:19:42,116 --> 00:19:46,116 Speaker 1: broke news. All right, expectations He's running for president. She 346 00:19:46,156 --> 00:19:50,276 Speaker 1: will be his vice president, vice presidential running mate. You 347 00:19:50,316 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 1: may see her, I think in twenty twenty eight. Listen, 348 00:19:52,756 --> 00:19:55,276 Speaker 1: here's the thing about Comma Herr. She's fifty eight years old. Ye, 349 00:19:55,396 --> 00:19:57,276 Speaker 1: she's going to be too old in twenty twenty eight. 350 00:19:58,076 --> 00:20:01,276 Speaker 1: Joe Biden is one hundred and twenty three. Like I 351 00:20:01,356 --> 00:20:13,996 Speaker 1: was joking, best line ever you can president forever? Um? No, 352 00:20:14,196 --> 00:20:18,436 Speaker 1: So I think. So that said, the likelihood is one 353 00:20:18,516 --> 00:20:20,636 Speaker 1: day you will see her name on the ballot again, 354 00:20:20,956 --> 00:20:23,076 Speaker 1: um by itself or at the top of the ticket, 355 00:20:23,556 --> 00:20:28,516 Speaker 1: whether there's twenty four or twenty eight. Um. So what 356 00:20:28,556 --> 00:20:32,156 Speaker 1: does the vice president do? The vice president has two responsibilities. 357 00:20:32,916 --> 00:20:37,716 Speaker 1: One is to cast votes and tie tie breaking tie 358 00:20:37,716 --> 00:20:40,076 Speaker 1: breaking votes in the United States Senate, there's a fifty 359 00:20:40,076 --> 00:20:42,196 Speaker 1: fifty split, all right. She did more of that than 360 00:20:42,236 --> 00:20:45,836 Speaker 1: any friends and any vice president since like John Quincy 361 00:20:45,836 --> 00:20:48,916 Speaker 1: Adams happened to me fifty fifty those twenty six times, 362 00:20:48,956 --> 00:20:51,596 Speaker 1: twenty six times, and by one hundred and seventeenth Congress. 363 00:20:51,596 --> 00:20:53,316 Speaker 1: You just had that in your back pocket, Khalil Or 364 00:20:53,316 --> 00:20:56,516 Speaker 1: did you come on, man? You know I'm just playing. 365 00:20:56,516 --> 00:20:59,476 Speaker 1: I'm possum here. I'm already. I'm just playing. He's a 366 00:20:59,476 --> 00:21:05,436 Speaker 1: well resoarsed man. Um uh. And so so that's number 367 00:21:05,476 --> 00:21:07,796 Speaker 1: one job is to cast tie breaking votes. Number two 368 00:21:07,876 --> 00:21:12,316 Speaker 1: job is to be in case you have to become president. 369 00:21:12,476 --> 00:21:15,596 Speaker 1: That's it. Everything else is like made up. So I 370 00:21:15,716 --> 00:21:18,196 Speaker 1: had this, I had this approach when I took the job, 371 00:21:18,556 --> 00:21:21,836 Speaker 1: and I talked to my staff about this. That what 372 00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:26,516 Speaker 1: the idea of something being vice presidential is built upon 373 00:21:26,716 --> 00:21:30,236 Speaker 1: a notion created by every other person who had ever 374 00:21:30,276 --> 00:21:35,676 Speaker 1: been vice president. So whatever Kamala Harris does will become 375 00:21:35,796 --> 00:21:39,796 Speaker 1: vice presidential because she is the vice president, and therefore 376 00:21:39,916 --> 00:21:42,476 Speaker 1: she will set the tone for her for whatever the 377 00:21:42,516 --> 00:21:44,636 Speaker 1: future of this office is. And so we should take 378 00:21:44,636 --> 00:21:47,756 Speaker 1: advantage of that, and we shouldn't feel imprisoned by what 379 00:21:47,836 --> 00:21:50,436 Speaker 1: other people chose to to do or chose not to do. 380 00:21:50,636 --> 00:21:52,756 Speaker 1: And if you think about her versus our most recent 381 00:21:52,836 --> 00:21:56,796 Speaker 1: vice president, I mean, like the guy she's the vice 382 00:21:56,876 --> 00:22:00,156 Speaker 1: president for exactly like a Joe Biden type. So we 383 00:22:00,196 --> 00:22:02,476 Speaker 1: have this notion, we have this notion of these vice 384 00:22:02,516 --> 00:22:05,796 Speaker 1: presidents who are people who are more experienced in the 385 00:22:05,796 --> 00:22:09,516 Speaker 1: ways of Washington and politics, national politics and the president. Right, 386 00:22:09,596 --> 00:22:13,716 Speaker 1: Joe Biden the Washington tutor for Barack Obama, you know, 387 00:22:13,836 --> 00:22:16,636 Speaker 1: George H. W. Bush was the you know, the tutor 388 00:22:16,756 --> 00:22:22,476 Speaker 1: for Ronald Reagan. Um, Dick Cheney was the hold on. 389 00:22:22,556 --> 00:22:28,036 Speaker 1: But Dick Chaney was the actual president, right, Like he 390 00:22:28,116 --> 00:22:33,796 Speaker 1: wasn't tutoring George Walker Bush, he was actually the president. Okay, sorry, 391 00:22:33,916 --> 00:22:35,956 Speaker 1: sorry about that, so right, so mean, so you see 392 00:22:35,996 --> 00:22:38,356 Speaker 1: you see the pattern. You see the pattern here, uh, 393 00:22:38,396 --> 00:22:41,396 Speaker 1: and Cheney being the most extreme case. Um, that's not 394 00:22:41,436 --> 00:22:43,836 Speaker 1: true for kamal Aaris right, like Joe Biden, has got 395 00:22:43,876 --> 00:22:47,636 Speaker 1: the most Washington experience. So in her world, I always 396 00:22:47,636 --> 00:22:49,796 Speaker 1: looked at it like this. She is the face of 397 00:22:49,836 --> 00:22:52,876 Speaker 1: the America we're becoming, not the America that we used 398 00:22:52,876 --> 00:22:57,836 Speaker 1: to be. Right, it's more educated, it is more centered 399 00:22:57,956 --> 00:23:00,436 Speaker 1: in the Sun Belt, the West and southern states of 400 00:23:00,436 --> 00:23:04,316 Speaker 1: the United States. Um and frankly a little more progressive. 401 00:23:04,636 --> 00:23:08,156 Speaker 1: So um, So she should not be thinking about how 402 00:23:08,316 --> 00:23:13,756 Speaker 1: a conservative white guy used to do this job. Conservative 403 00:23:13,756 --> 00:23:16,116 Speaker 1: white guy who've been in Washington his whole life, his 404 00:23:16,156 --> 00:23:18,396 Speaker 1: whole career, you should do this job. She should do 405 00:23:18,436 --> 00:23:21,236 Speaker 1: the job based on who she is and bringing something new. 406 00:23:21,476 --> 00:23:23,836 Speaker 1: So we spent most of our time traveling around the 407 00:23:23,836 --> 00:23:26,596 Speaker 1: country three days a week, meeting people who are out 408 00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:28,476 Speaker 1: in the country, bringing people from other parts of the 409 00:23:28,476 --> 00:23:31,036 Speaker 1: country to Washington to meet with her in her office, 410 00:23:31,356 --> 00:23:35,916 Speaker 1: because I believe that her power lie out in the 411 00:23:35,956 --> 00:23:38,516 Speaker 1: country with the people who were looking for her to lead, 412 00:23:39,076 --> 00:23:43,636 Speaker 1: not sidered in marble hallways inside Washington, DC or the 413 00:23:43,636 --> 00:23:46,916 Speaker 1: White House. So don't play the game of Joe Biden 414 00:23:47,036 --> 00:23:49,276 Speaker 1: or Al Gore. Make a new game where you go 415 00:23:49,276 --> 00:23:50,996 Speaker 1: out to the country, not one where you go out 416 00:23:50,996 --> 00:23:54,236 Speaker 1: to the Senate. So this is like her basically going 417 00:23:54,276 --> 00:23:57,036 Speaker 1: around meeting with all the AKA branches, the alfacap alf 418 00:23:57,116 --> 00:24:02,756 Speaker 1: branches around the country to break with tradition as a 419 00:24:02,876 --> 00:24:07,156 Speaker 1: part of in fact of maybe what you did, so 420 00:24:07,516 --> 00:24:11,636 Speaker 1: you called you called it the Ski week, right, I 421 00:24:11,676 --> 00:24:14,436 Speaker 1: will say I will say this, there were more Divine 422 00:24:14,556 --> 00:24:17,356 Speaker 1: nine meetings, not just akas, but there were more Divine 423 00:24:17,436 --> 00:24:19,716 Speaker 1: nine meetings in the last year of my life than 424 00:24:19,836 --> 00:24:22,556 Speaker 1: probably in the last thirty five years of my life. 425 00:24:23,396 --> 00:24:25,556 Speaker 1: All right, So Ben Ben Ben is in this conversation, 426 00:24:25,596 --> 00:24:27,916 Speaker 1: and while he's cool, he you know, I just have 427 00:24:27,956 --> 00:24:31,036 Speaker 1: to tell you, Ben, Divine nine are the historically black 428 00:24:31,076 --> 00:24:34,676 Speaker 1: fraternitys and sororities. It's it's the umbrella way to define 429 00:24:34,756 --> 00:24:36,876 Speaker 1: all of them together. Just I thought i'd let you man. 430 00:24:37,036 --> 00:24:42,876 Speaker 1: Thank you SAMs. All right, all right, all right, I 431 00:24:43,236 --> 00:24:46,556 Speaker 1: was I was five Beta Kappa. He is married to 432 00:24:46,636 --> 00:24:48,996 Speaker 1: an AKA, so I'm sure he's heard some of this before. 433 00:24:49,956 --> 00:24:53,276 Speaker 1: That's true. So Jamal, you came into this job. It's 434 00:24:53,316 --> 00:24:56,316 Speaker 1: a communications director at a time when when Kamala Harris 435 00:24:56,396 --> 00:24:58,956 Speaker 1: was getting criticized for a dysfunction in her office, and 436 00:24:59,116 --> 00:25:01,356 Speaker 1: she's often criticized and I want to hear from you, like, 437 00:25:02,036 --> 00:25:04,236 Speaker 1: can we talk about the criticisms of her? Could you 438 00:25:04,316 --> 00:25:07,156 Speaker 1: tell us maybe to start, like, like, what are the 439 00:25:07,276 --> 00:25:09,316 Speaker 1: invalid ones? What are the ones that you think are 440 00:25:10,036 --> 00:25:12,556 Speaker 1: trumped up? Maybe we can't say trumped up anymore. What 441 00:25:12,676 --> 00:25:16,716 Speaker 1: are the ones that you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah, if 442 00:25:16,756 --> 00:25:21,116 Speaker 1: you we can yeah. Um uh So I'll start here, 443 00:25:21,196 --> 00:25:25,916 Speaker 1: which is that racism and sexism misogyny are real. Um. 444 00:25:26,276 --> 00:25:29,116 Speaker 1: And it is not that she is flawless. It's not 445 00:25:29,196 --> 00:25:32,156 Speaker 1: that she doesn't make mistakes. It is, however, true. Two 446 00:25:32,236 --> 00:25:35,236 Speaker 1: things are true. One, when she makes mistakes, um, they 447 00:25:35,316 --> 00:25:38,796 Speaker 1: are magnified and people look to them as more of 448 00:25:38,796 --> 00:25:42,196 Speaker 1: an indicator of some innate ability or disability or lack 449 00:25:42,276 --> 00:25:45,236 Speaker 1: of ability. Um. Then if somebody else makes a mistake. 450 00:25:45,276 --> 00:25:47,916 Speaker 1: I mean, Joe Biden says things all the time, you know, 451 00:25:48,116 --> 00:25:50,916 Speaker 1: and turn out to be wrong or I'm a fucker 452 00:25:50,956 --> 00:25:52,756 Speaker 1: as president. If you looked at the things he said 453 00:25:52,756 --> 00:25:55,796 Speaker 1: over time, I mean it's crazy, Like if you just 454 00:25:55,956 --> 00:25:57,716 Speaker 1: if those if you just took the list of his 455 00:25:57,956 --> 00:26:00,836 Speaker 1: his malaproprisms or like screw ups or like, you know, 456 00:26:01,316 --> 00:26:04,436 Speaker 1: funky things he said just about like Barack Obama. I 457 00:26:04,516 --> 00:26:06,316 Speaker 1: mean somebody asked me the other day. They were like, yeah, 458 00:26:06,436 --> 00:26:08,596 Speaker 1: so what you know, where's commonly hair has been. I'm like, 459 00:26:08,636 --> 00:26:10,636 Speaker 1: what do you believe? Remember about Joe Biden? You remember 460 00:26:10,636 --> 00:26:14,516 Speaker 1: a couple of things about Joe Biden. One healthcare bill passes, 461 00:26:14,716 --> 00:26:18,276 Speaker 1: big fucking deal, right, it says into the microphone, and 462 00:26:18,356 --> 00:26:20,596 Speaker 1: Barack Obama's like patting him on the shoulder like come on, 463 00:26:20,716 --> 00:26:26,036 Speaker 1: bro stop um uh. And then two to the beer summit, 464 00:26:26,836 --> 00:26:28,716 Speaker 1: yess to. And then the third one, I would say 465 00:26:28,876 --> 00:26:31,036 Speaker 1: is when he came out in favor of marriage quality 466 00:26:31,116 --> 00:26:35,236 Speaker 1: before the before me. Yeah, right, yeah, that's kind of 467 00:26:35,276 --> 00:26:36,996 Speaker 1: which was a gaff which was kind of a gaff 468 00:26:37,036 --> 00:26:39,476 Speaker 1: in and of itself. Right, So from a communication standpoint, 469 00:26:39,516 --> 00:26:43,316 Speaker 1: I mean, just very briefly describe how that was a 470 00:26:43,396 --> 00:26:47,276 Speaker 1: communications a crisis in a way. So if the president 471 00:26:47,516 --> 00:26:49,756 Speaker 1: the number one okay, the number three job of the 472 00:26:49,796 --> 00:26:53,956 Speaker 1: vice president after vote, stay alive and take the job. 473 00:26:54,156 --> 00:26:58,196 Speaker 1: The number three job is don't upstage the president. Exactly 474 00:26:59,796 --> 00:27:01,916 Speaker 1: is it is one of the cardinal problems. And I'll 475 00:27:01,956 --> 00:27:04,916 Speaker 1: tell you people always said, well, you know about the 476 00:27:04,996 --> 00:27:07,516 Speaker 1: filibuster or one of the other issues. You know, the 477 00:27:07,636 --> 00:27:10,356 Speaker 1: vice president vice president here should should She should just 478 00:27:10,356 --> 00:27:12,716 Speaker 1: say what she wants to say. You know, Joe Biden 479 00:27:12,796 --> 00:27:15,796 Speaker 1: bucked Barack Obama marriage quality. She should say something about 480 00:27:15,876 --> 00:27:18,876 Speaker 1: voting rights or criminal justice or something else, even if 481 00:27:19,196 --> 00:27:21,676 Speaker 1: Joe Biden doesn't believe it. Well, I think you get 482 00:27:21,716 --> 00:27:24,196 Speaker 1: one bite at that apple, right, You sort of get 483 00:27:24,196 --> 00:27:26,276 Speaker 1: to do that at one time, and you better hope 484 00:27:26,276 --> 00:27:29,796 Speaker 1: you're on the right side of history, because you could 485 00:27:29,916 --> 00:27:31,876 Speaker 1: end up spending the rest of your time going to 486 00:27:31,996 --> 00:27:35,036 Speaker 1: funerals in the South Pacific, you know, South Pacific islands 487 00:27:35,596 --> 00:27:39,076 Speaker 1: for American allies, you know, around the world, instead of 488 00:27:40,716 --> 00:27:43,476 Speaker 1: she was just out there anyway? Is that right? She did? 489 00:27:44,956 --> 00:27:47,876 Speaker 1: But okay, but I do think that this is this 490 00:27:48,036 --> 00:27:50,356 Speaker 1: is like a thing. It's a very hard thing to do. Uh, 491 00:27:51,196 --> 00:27:53,356 Speaker 1: it's to buck the president. That is actually like your 492 00:27:53,436 --> 00:27:55,316 Speaker 1: job is to do the you work for the president 493 00:27:55,356 --> 00:27:59,916 Speaker 1: of the United States. Um. So you know it is 494 00:28:00,076 --> 00:28:02,676 Speaker 1: very hard for the vice president to make news. And 495 00:28:02,836 --> 00:28:07,396 Speaker 1: so um I shouted off here she won racism, sexism 496 00:28:07,436 --> 00:28:08,956 Speaker 1: a real It doesn't mean she doesn't make mistakes, just 497 00:28:09,116 --> 00:28:11,876 Speaker 1: means they get magnified. Two people think she might run 498 00:28:11,956 --> 00:28:14,316 Speaker 1: for president one day. So there is a concerted effort 499 00:28:14,396 --> 00:28:17,996 Speaker 1: on the right to attack her, go after her, you know, 500 00:28:18,236 --> 00:28:22,996 Speaker 1: and blow up any small mistakes she may make and 501 00:28:23,116 --> 00:28:27,036 Speaker 1: turn that into a bigger deal. Alternate may otherwise be Okay, Well, 502 00:28:27,036 --> 00:28:30,116 Speaker 1: you've already said she was very deliberate, so I might 503 00:28:30,156 --> 00:28:33,196 Speaker 1: already know the answer this question. But you know, Obama 504 00:28:34,716 --> 00:28:38,716 Speaker 1: was very circumspect and very reserved stoic, even in the 505 00:28:38,796 --> 00:28:41,836 Speaker 1: face of the same kinds of attacks, at least because 506 00:28:41,876 --> 00:28:46,676 Speaker 1: of his race as opposed to his gender and certainly 507 00:28:47,236 --> 00:28:51,516 Speaker 1: caricature lampooned in the most racist ways imaginable, and for 508 00:28:51,596 --> 00:28:53,556 Speaker 1: the most part, he kept us cool. I mean, with 509 00:28:53,676 --> 00:29:00,116 Speaker 1: the exception of Michael Key and his version of Obama's 510 00:29:00,236 --> 00:29:05,556 Speaker 1: alternative ego Luther, instead of giving voice to this, is 511 00:29:05,636 --> 00:29:09,756 Speaker 1: there an alternate ego for Kamala Harris. She have her 512 00:29:09,796 --> 00:29:13,436 Speaker 1: own version of Luther that she's playing out either in 513 00:29:13,556 --> 00:29:16,236 Speaker 1: her head that you could tell or in private inside 514 00:29:16,276 --> 00:29:18,516 Speaker 1: of the White House. She actually really is cool as 515 00:29:18,556 --> 00:29:21,156 Speaker 1: a cucumber. You know, I think these things happen. I'm 516 00:29:21,156 --> 00:29:23,116 Speaker 1: not saying they don't annoy her, but they I think 517 00:29:23,156 --> 00:29:26,116 Speaker 1: they happen, and she does let them kind of blow off. Um. 518 00:29:26,716 --> 00:29:28,996 Speaker 1: She also, by the way, likes to use the F bomb. 519 00:29:29,996 --> 00:29:33,836 Speaker 1: It is, oh all right, the way she's in good 520 00:29:33,876 --> 00:29:36,196 Speaker 1: company with Ben. It is by far the best swear 521 00:29:36,276 --> 00:29:38,676 Speaker 1: word in the in the American language because because it 522 00:29:38,836 --> 00:29:42,156 Speaker 1: is it is there's an adjective, verb and a now 523 00:29:42,516 --> 00:29:47,436 Speaker 1: right depending on usage. I kind of love that. So 524 00:29:47,476 --> 00:29:49,956 Speaker 1: I should tell you this funny story. So an episode 525 00:29:50,036 --> 00:29:54,196 Speaker 1: we did you Know a few few episodes back, Ben's 526 00:29:54,276 --> 00:29:57,436 Speaker 1: mom listened to it, and she regularly listens to our show, 527 00:29:57,876 --> 00:30:00,196 Speaker 1: and Ben sent her a note asking her something, and 528 00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:02,316 Speaker 1: she answered the note back She's like, Yeah, I'm gonna 529 00:30:02,396 --> 00:30:04,556 Speaker 1: fucking do this when you fucking tell me to do it. 530 00:30:04,676 --> 00:30:06,836 Speaker 1: And and by the way, you fucking curse too much 531 00:30:06,876 --> 00:30:14,236 Speaker 1: on your show. So according to succeeded, I changed her 532 00:30:14,316 --> 00:30:20,196 Speaker 1: language to use this fantastic word. Yeah. Absolutely, I like hearing. 533 00:30:20,236 --> 00:30:23,596 Speaker 1: That was a good question. Khalil um jamal. Are they're 534 00:30:23,676 --> 00:30:26,756 Speaker 1: valid criticisms? Can you talk about about sort of things 535 00:30:26,796 --> 00:30:28,956 Speaker 1: that she has slipped up or could do better? Like 536 00:30:29,116 --> 00:30:31,436 Speaker 1: was the dysfunction real? Like we heard all these stories 537 00:30:31,516 --> 00:30:33,996 Speaker 1: of dysfunction in her office, and that she's, you know, 538 00:30:34,276 --> 00:30:38,036 Speaker 1: a manager that wasn't able to retain people. So, um, 539 00:30:38,716 --> 00:30:41,276 Speaker 1: here's what I'll say about that. Every day that I 540 00:30:41,396 --> 00:30:45,836 Speaker 1: was with her, I saw some little black or brown 541 00:30:45,956 --> 00:30:49,396 Speaker 1: girl look at her like she was wonder woman right, 542 00:30:49,516 --> 00:30:52,836 Speaker 1: like she was there on their own personal superhero. I 543 00:30:53,036 --> 00:30:56,276 Speaker 1: saw older women of all races, black, white, and others 544 00:30:56,916 --> 00:30:59,756 Speaker 1: grab her by the hand and say, I never thought 545 00:30:59,836 --> 00:31:03,236 Speaker 1: I would see the day right how a woman that 546 00:31:03,316 --> 00:31:04,996 Speaker 1: would be in this office would be in the White House, 547 00:31:05,116 --> 00:31:07,836 Speaker 1: even a vice president, And I want you to be 548 00:31:07,916 --> 00:31:09,716 Speaker 1: president one day. A lot of people would say that, 549 00:31:09,956 --> 00:31:11,756 Speaker 1: even if people felt some kind of way, A lot 550 00:31:11,756 --> 00:31:13,236 Speaker 1: of people would say like, I hope you get to 551 00:31:13,276 --> 00:31:16,196 Speaker 1: be president. With that, I think she feels very acutely 552 00:31:16,316 --> 00:31:20,436 Speaker 1: the responsibility to all of those people who are looking 553 00:31:20,516 --> 00:31:23,876 Speaker 1: at her with this, with this expectation and this um, 554 00:31:24,396 --> 00:31:28,196 Speaker 1: this pride in her assent um. And she would say 555 00:31:28,276 --> 00:31:29,636 Speaker 1: like she's not that this is not the first job. 556 00:31:29,716 --> 00:31:32,196 Speaker 1: She was the first black woman ag in California. Now 557 00:31:32,276 --> 00:31:35,636 Speaker 1: she's the first black woman vice president. So she's had 558 00:31:35,756 --> 00:31:38,116 Speaker 1: this expectation on her for a long time. And I 559 00:31:38,236 --> 00:31:40,276 Speaker 1: think some of that is part of the reason why 560 00:31:40,356 --> 00:31:43,636 Speaker 1: she's probably more reserved that somebody would like me, would 561 00:31:43,676 --> 00:31:46,836 Speaker 1: want her to be because the idea of making mistakes, 562 00:31:46,956 --> 00:31:50,116 Speaker 1: every mistake she made that got blown up in public. 563 00:31:50,476 --> 00:31:52,676 Speaker 1: I think she didn't just feel it as a personal problem, 564 00:31:52,956 --> 00:31:54,996 Speaker 1: but she felt Perhaps she never told me this, but 565 00:31:55,076 --> 00:31:59,076 Speaker 1: I'm supposing that if she was letting down all these 566 00:31:59,236 --> 00:32:01,876 Speaker 1: people who looked at her and said, I'm so proud 567 00:32:01,956 --> 00:32:04,956 Speaker 1: of you, right, I want somebody I want my daughter 568 00:32:05,036 --> 00:32:08,276 Speaker 1: to be like you. Um So I think, um. I 569 00:32:08,396 --> 00:32:12,356 Speaker 1: think that I created like a reservedness about her that 570 00:32:12,516 --> 00:32:15,076 Speaker 1: I think does not always suit her and does not always, 571 00:32:15,236 --> 00:32:17,116 Speaker 1: you know, do her well. And I think she could 572 00:32:17,596 --> 00:32:19,516 Speaker 1: stand to get outside of that. And I think it's 573 00:32:19,556 --> 00:32:22,076 Speaker 1: rooted though, and something that's very legitimate. It's also rooted 574 00:32:22,156 --> 00:32:26,116 Speaker 1: in talk about the staff thing, that responsibility she feels acutely. 575 00:32:26,476 --> 00:32:28,516 Speaker 1: She holds herself to a high standard. She holds her 576 00:32:28,556 --> 00:32:31,236 Speaker 1: staff to a high standard, and she can be tough. 577 00:32:31,476 --> 00:32:35,556 Speaker 1: She could be a tough boss. But I think it 578 00:32:35,756 --> 00:32:39,396 Speaker 1: comes from a place that is rooted in I've got 579 00:32:39,516 --> 00:32:42,796 Speaker 1: to perform because these there are millions of people who 580 00:32:42,956 --> 00:32:45,436 Speaker 1: want and need me to perform, and I can't afford 581 00:32:45,476 --> 00:32:47,676 Speaker 1: to let them down to get this job. Jamal, did 582 00:32:47,716 --> 00:32:49,316 Speaker 1: you have to tell them that you voted for Kamala 583 00:32:49,356 --> 00:32:55,836 Speaker 1: Harris and the primary? The Democratic primary nobody asked. And 584 00:32:56,036 --> 00:32:57,796 Speaker 1: I mean, that's I'm thinking out a loud here because 585 00:32:57,876 --> 00:33:00,156 Speaker 1: Khalil and I I'm pretty sure Khalil didn't. I know 586 00:33:00,276 --> 00:33:04,076 Speaker 1: I didn't, And you know, sort of that to even 587 00:33:04,196 --> 00:33:06,156 Speaker 1: hear us talk about why, and then maybe you can 588 00:33:06,236 --> 00:33:10,076 Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, try to tell us what differently, 589 00:33:10,276 --> 00:33:12,476 Speaker 1: you know, why you didn't. Don't tell me she didn't 590 00:33:12,476 --> 00:33:14,396 Speaker 1: make it. She didn't make it. She wasn't actually on 591 00:33:14,476 --> 00:33:16,556 Speaker 1: the ballot in the Democratic primary. That is a good 592 00:33:17,516 --> 00:33:20,036 Speaker 1: even Yeah, you know, you know, from from jump as 593 00:33:20,076 --> 00:33:22,196 Speaker 1: you're sort of picking who your who your people would be, 594 00:33:22,716 --> 00:33:24,236 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I think for me, part of it, 595 00:33:24,556 --> 00:33:26,596 Speaker 1: part of it was her background as a prosecutor and 596 00:33:26,636 --> 00:33:29,356 Speaker 1: the attorney general in California and some of her her 597 00:33:29,436 --> 00:33:34,076 Speaker 1: stances on criminal justice and not looking for criminal justice reforms. Um. 598 00:33:35,316 --> 00:33:37,316 Speaker 1: Some of it was that I felt, you know, I'm 599 00:33:37,596 --> 00:33:40,236 Speaker 1: more progressive, I think than than some of her policies. 600 00:33:40,356 --> 00:33:43,236 Speaker 1: But and then in a way that the sort of 601 00:33:43,436 --> 00:33:46,196 Speaker 1: symbolic things that you said of being the first, of 602 00:33:46,276 --> 00:33:48,356 Speaker 1: being a woman, of being a woman of color, those 603 00:33:48,396 --> 00:33:52,676 Speaker 1: are really important to me, and still policy things felt 604 00:33:52,716 --> 00:33:56,276 Speaker 1: like they superseded them. You know what's interesting she actually 605 00:33:56,356 --> 00:33:58,596 Speaker 1: used to be regarded she was kind of the progressive 606 00:33:58,676 --> 00:34:02,036 Speaker 1: prosecutor right, So in San Francisco she led the way 607 00:34:02,116 --> 00:34:05,876 Speaker 1: on prosecutors actually waiting into criminal justice reform. So in 608 00:34:05,916 --> 00:34:08,676 Speaker 1: San Francisco she started this first step program where she 609 00:34:08,756 --> 00:34:12,116 Speaker 1: would get people who had been in their first conviction 610 00:34:12,316 --> 00:34:15,196 Speaker 1: and tried to deal with recidivism and reform and get 611 00:34:15,276 --> 00:34:19,636 Speaker 1: them into like, you know, track them into other occupations, 612 00:34:19,796 --> 00:34:21,636 Speaker 1: maybe away from the thing that got them in trouble 613 00:34:22,076 --> 00:34:24,636 Speaker 1: in the first place. So she was ahead of her 614 00:34:24,716 --> 00:34:26,596 Speaker 1: time on that. And one of the ways she first 615 00:34:26,636 --> 00:34:29,076 Speaker 1: became known is because in San Francisco there was a 616 00:34:29,116 --> 00:34:31,676 Speaker 1: cop killing in her first year as DA, and she 617 00:34:31,956 --> 00:34:35,716 Speaker 1: and everybody wanted the killer to be prosecuted under the 618 00:34:35,756 --> 00:34:38,116 Speaker 1: death penalty, and she refused to go after the death 619 00:34:38,156 --> 00:34:41,196 Speaker 1: penalty for this cop killer, and the police in California 620 00:34:41,356 --> 00:34:43,956 Speaker 1: and all came out against her because of this, and 621 00:34:43,996 --> 00:34:47,436 Speaker 1: people were protesting her. So in early two thousand she 622 00:34:47,676 --> 00:34:51,636 Speaker 1: was really at the forefront of prosecutorial criminal justice reform. 623 00:34:52,076 --> 00:34:54,996 Speaker 1: I think what happened is the movement, you know, sort 624 00:34:55,036 --> 00:34:58,116 Speaker 1: of passed by this leader, which happens to a lot 625 00:34:58,156 --> 00:35:00,596 Speaker 1: of people in leadership where you know, they start down 626 00:35:00,636 --> 00:35:03,876 Speaker 1: to place and they get you know, vilified by the 627 00:35:04,076 --> 00:35:06,716 Speaker 1: establishment for being too pushing, too far, and then the 628 00:35:06,796 --> 00:35:09,316 Speaker 1: activists sort of keep pushing and maybe pushed past where 629 00:35:09,316 --> 00:35:11,436 Speaker 1: they were when they started. So she kind of got 630 00:35:11,956 --> 00:35:15,036 Speaker 1: she kind of got caught in between both of those, um, 631 00:35:15,636 --> 00:35:18,956 Speaker 1: both of those polls of being both a progressive and 632 00:35:19,236 --> 00:35:23,516 Speaker 1: being a prosecutor. I love that you are complicating our impressions. 633 00:35:23,516 --> 00:35:25,716 Speaker 1: I mean, the truth is, you know, you know her 634 00:35:25,796 --> 00:35:30,876 Speaker 1: up close better than most people. Certainly having these conversations. 635 00:35:31,316 --> 00:35:33,676 Speaker 1: I will say that you know her leaning into the 636 00:35:33,796 --> 00:35:36,076 Speaker 1: role as a top cop writing a book about smart 637 00:35:36,076 --> 00:35:39,276 Speaker 1: own crime. You know, this was this was progressive light 638 00:35:39,676 --> 00:35:43,236 Speaker 1: right by the standards of where the conversation moved. You know, 639 00:35:43,676 --> 00:35:46,716 Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say she was, well, it's 640 00:35:46,756 --> 00:35:50,916 Speaker 1: progressive light today. But I mean, your history made your history. 641 00:35:51,076 --> 00:35:53,716 Speaker 1: A historian, you kind of have to look at people 642 00:35:53,716 --> 00:35:55,716 Speaker 1: in the context their times as well as in the 643 00:35:55,796 --> 00:35:57,836 Speaker 1: context of what we think may may or may not be. 644 00:35:58,156 --> 00:36:00,836 Speaker 1: Like the ultimate what years did she Lets let's run 645 00:36:00,876 --> 00:36:02,396 Speaker 1: this down real quick. What years was she in the 646 00:36:02,476 --> 00:36:07,756 Speaker 1: office progressive prosecutors? Then it wasn't yet a thing, So yeah, 647 00:36:07,796 --> 00:36:12,796 Speaker 1: she invented the concept. By two thousand and three, the 648 00:36:12,876 --> 00:36:16,836 Speaker 1: Sentencing Project had for more than a decade pointed out 649 00:36:17,356 --> 00:36:21,996 Speaker 1: the rash of sentencing laws under mandatory minimums and drug 650 00:36:22,036 --> 00:36:25,196 Speaker 1: sentencing that had wreaked havoc on justice in this country. 651 00:36:25,676 --> 00:36:29,756 Speaker 1: The footprint of racial disparity data by that time was 652 00:36:29,876 --> 00:36:33,316 Speaker 1: already a mountain. And even I mean, you know, you 653 00:36:33,396 --> 00:36:36,876 Speaker 1: know this as well as anybody. I was showing Boys 654 00:36:36,916 --> 00:36:39,916 Speaker 1: in the Hood, which was like a foil for John 655 00:36:39,996 --> 00:36:43,716 Speaker 1: Singleton to give life to this notion of mass incarceration 656 00:36:43,756 --> 00:36:47,676 Speaker 1: and the relationship between concentrated disadvantage and a system of 657 00:36:47,756 --> 00:36:51,116 Speaker 1: brutality from policing, you know, to caging black people as 658 00:36:51,156 --> 00:36:55,956 Speaker 1: a death sentence back in nineteen ninety one when that 659 00:36:56,036 --> 00:37:00,276 Speaker 1: film was released. So while I will accept that within 660 00:37:00,676 --> 00:37:04,516 Speaker 1: the construct of what prosecutors saw themselves capable of doing, 661 00:37:04,876 --> 00:37:08,316 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris can claim a role as a pioneer, but 662 00:37:08,436 --> 00:37:11,636 Speaker 1: there was a politics that was more to the left 663 00:37:11,716 --> 00:37:15,516 Speaker 1: of where she was, and that's important. Now I'm going 664 00:37:15,556 --> 00:37:19,676 Speaker 1: to also say one more thing, so without saying too much, 665 00:37:19,956 --> 00:37:21,956 Speaker 1: you know, I know her sister Maya Harris because of 666 00:37:22,036 --> 00:37:24,996 Speaker 1: my time as a fundraiser at Schaumberg when her sister 667 00:37:25,156 --> 00:37:28,196 Speaker 1: was VP at the Ford Foundation, and through a series 668 00:37:28,236 --> 00:37:31,036 Speaker 1: of relationships, I got to ask a little bit about 669 00:37:31,916 --> 00:37:34,396 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris, and you know what I got, What my 670 00:37:34,476 --> 00:37:37,756 Speaker 1: little birdie told me was that, you know, she wasn't 671 00:37:37,756 --> 00:37:40,276 Speaker 1: her sister, that her sister was more progressive. Her sister 672 00:37:40,316 --> 00:37:43,356 Speaker 1: had been worked at the ACOU And so I think 673 00:37:43,396 --> 00:37:46,156 Speaker 1: it's fair to say that Kamala Harris was more centrist. 674 00:37:46,676 --> 00:37:49,156 Speaker 1: Not just that she was kind of on the cutting edge, 675 00:37:49,196 --> 00:37:52,556 Speaker 1: but she was fundamentally more centrist on some of these 676 00:37:52,636 --> 00:37:56,276 Speaker 1: really tough issues than a lot of people even at 677 00:37:56,356 --> 00:38:01,516 Speaker 1: that time. Listen, I think that maybe true. I wouldn't 678 00:38:01,516 --> 00:38:06,636 Speaker 1: dispute that. I think what is true also is that 679 00:38:07,516 --> 00:38:12,036 Speaker 1: you have different jobs. Right. So if Maya is a 680 00:38:12,756 --> 00:38:17,836 Speaker 1: social justice ACLU for foundation, you know, NGEO leader that 681 00:38:17,956 --> 00:38:20,356 Speaker 1: has a different job than being a prosecutor who is 682 00:38:20,516 --> 00:38:23,516 Speaker 1: charged with enforcing the laws on the books of their community, 683 00:38:24,076 --> 00:38:26,796 Speaker 1: right and then trying to do what you can creatively 684 00:38:27,196 --> 00:38:31,756 Speaker 1: to try to prevent people from being on the wrong 685 00:38:32,036 --> 00:38:37,556 Speaker 1: end of your prosecutorial stick. Right. So I think it's 686 00:38:37,556 --> 00:38:39,596 Speaker 1: the same thing is true about being a US senator 687 00:38:39,716 --> 00:38:42,276 Speaker 1: or being a president being a president is not being 688 00:38:42,316 --> 00:38:44,796 Speaker 1: an activist. So I just think you have to look 689 00:38:44,836 --> 00:38:47,596 Speaker 1: at people in the role that they are in. And 690 00:38:47,756 --> 00:38:51,196 Speaker 1: then the role of the activist and the community outside 691 00:38:51,196 --> 00:38:54,596 Speaker 1: of politics is to push the politicians in the direction 692 00:38:54,756 --> 00:38:56,556 Speaker 1: that it is we want them to go. But if 693 00:38:56,596 --> 00:38:59,716 Speaker 1: the people are not there, it is very difficult for 694 00:38:59,876 --> 00:39:02,676 Speaker 1: someone who is elected to go to a place where 695 00:39:02,716 --> 00:39:04,956 Speaker 1: the people do not support him or her to be 696 00:39:05,556 --> 00:39:08,476 Speaker 1: And I think we, you know, the adults, adults in 697 00:39:08,636 --> 00:39:11,516 Speaker 1: us kind of have to recognize that that's that's just 698 00:39:11,636 --> 00:39:15,796 Speaker 1: sort of what the world works. All right, Well, this 699 00:39:15,956 --> 00:39:20,196 Speaker 1: is good. We're gonna we're gonna keep it moving. From 700 00:39:20,276 --> 00:39:24,876 Speaker 1: that point, I did, I did. I did learn something though, 701 00:39:25,196 --> 00:39:29,316 Speaker 1: that is that, um, if she can be funnier and 702 00:39:29,476 --> 00:39:34,436 Speaker 1: more personable, then she has a really good shot at 703 00:39:34,516 --> 00:39:36,676 Speaker 1: running for president in twenty twenty eight and winning. So 704 00:39:37,076 --> 00:39:41,116 Speaker 1: she's the most likely, most likely next nominee, most likely 705 00:39:41,196 --> 00:39:43,796 Speaker 1: next nominee. So so here's a good question, then, jamal 706 00:39:43,956 --> 00:39:45,876 Speaker 1: Or like something for us to think about and discuss, 707 00:39:45,956 --> 00:39:48,596 Speaker 1: Like you described all the things that she does as 708 00:39:48,676 --> 00:39:51,716 Speaker 1: vice president, and you know, those three big roles and 709 00:39:51,796 --> 00:39:55,076 Speaker 1: then these other sort of tasks and part that you 710 00:39:55,196 --> 00:39:57,076 Speaker 1: even shaped over the last year of going out and 711 00:39:57,116 --> 00:40:01,316 Speaker 1: meeting people. How should we judge her as a presidential candidate, say, 712 00:40:01,356 --> 00:40:04,276 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty eight, on what basis? Oh, I think 713 00:40:04,596 --> 00:40:06,956 Speaker 1: people should judge her based on the way we judge 714 00:40:06,996 --> 00:40:08,636 Speaker 1: every candidate, which is, what do they want to do 715 00:40:08,716 --> 00:40:11,676 Speaker 1: for my future? Right? I don't think elections are about 716 00:40:11,716 --> 00:40:14,196 Speaker 1: the past. Elections are always about the future, and it's 717 00:40:14,236 --> 00:40:17,356 Speaker 1: about and it also comparative, you know, they're also they're 718 00:40:17,396 --> 00:40:21,196 Speaker 1: always between candidate A and candidate B, not candidate A 719 00:40:21,836 --> 00:40:24,276 Speaker 1: and my sense of who the perfect human being ought 720 00:40:24,316 --> 00:40:25,996 Speaker 1: to be in the world, who could sit and sit 721 00:40:26,076 --> 00:40:28,756 Speaker 1: in an office. Um. But I think we always make 722 00:40:28,836 --> 00:40:32,356 Speaker 1: judgments about what somebody's going to do in the future 723 00:40:32,716 --> 00:40:35,636 Speaker 1: and then we decide with not you know, it makes sense. Um. 724 00:40:35,996 --> 00:40:39,716 Speaker 1: We also personal qualities matter a lot. Just just to 725 00:40:39,836 --> 00:40:43,596 Speaker 1: push you, you know further, like, um, okay, we get 726 00:40:43,636 --> 00:40:46,756 Speaker 1: that it's about the future, So tell us just just 727 00:40:46,876 --> 00:40:49,236 Speaker 1: give us like her top three values. Like you know, 728 00:40:49,396 --> 00:40:52,196 Speaker 1: here we are, we've gone through the resurgence of white 729 00:40:52,276 --> 00:40:56,036 Speaker 1: nationalism and white supremacy. We've had every kind of existential 730 00:40:56,116 --> 00:41:00,996 Speaker 1: democratic or a democracy threat unfold before us. Um. So 731 00:41:01,156 --> 00:41:03,596 Speaker 1: She's not going to have the country that Obama inherits 732 00:41:03,636 --> 00:41:05,596 Speaker 1: the first black president. She's going to be the second 733 00:41:05,956 --> 00:41:10,196 Speaker 1: black president and the first woman if she wins. So 734 00:41:10,756 --> 00:41:13,436 Speaker 1: what is her vision of the future. So, first of all, 735 00:41:13,436 --> 00:41:15,116 Speaker 1: I don't work for her anymore, So I don't I 736 00:41:15,196 --> 00:41:17,956 Speaker 1: can't speak directly for her, but what I will say 737 00:41:18,316 --> 00:41:22,916 Speaker 1: is that she believes a lot in inclusiveness and making 738 00:41:22,956 --> 00:41:24,636 Speaker 1: sure that people who are not at the table are 739 00:41:24,676 --> 00:41:27,916 Speaker 1: at the table. She believes in standing up to bad 740 00:41:27,996 --> 00:41:32,676 Speaker 1: actors and making and holding them accountable. Right, So if 741 00:41:32,716 --> 00:41:35,956 Speaker 1: you look at like the Corinthian student loan scandal, like 742 00:41:36,036 --> 00:41:37,916 Speaker 1: she went out for them when she was Attorney general 743 00:41:38,196 --> 00:41:41,476 Speaker 1: and then as vice president and president. They helped get 744 00:41:41,556 --> 00:41:43,876 Speaker 1: people get restitution for some of the people who were 745 00:41:43,916 --> 00:41:47,476 Speaker 1: taking advantage of by these predatory companies that had gone 746 00:41:47,476 --> 00:41:50,316 Speaker 1: after people who are trying to get educations. So she 747 00:41:50,516 --> 00:41:52,956 Speaker 1: believes in standing up against people who are trying to 748 00:41:52,996 --> 00:41:55,476 Speaker 1: take advantage. She believes in making sure people who are 749 00:41:55,596 --> 00:41:58,396 Speaker 1: not in the picture are at the table in order 750 00:41:58,436 --> 00:42:00,236 Speaker 1: to be included. And what it is we're talking about 751 00:42:00,236 --> 00:42:02,036 Speaker 1: as a country and how we're going to govern, and 752 00:42:02,156 --> 00:42:03,756 Speaker 1: so I think we'll judge you will judge her at 753 00:42:03,796 --> 00:42:06,756 Speaker 1: the time on what it is that she really wants 754 00:42:06,836 --> 00:42:09,516 Speaker 1: to be, what it is she really wants to say 755 00:42:09,756 --> 00:42:12,116 Speaker 1: and offer the country, and people will decide whether or 756 00:42:12,156 --> 00:42:14,836 Speaker 1: not they think she's, you know, a good enough candidate. Man. 757 00:42:15,076 --> 00:42:17,116 Speaker 1: I love that question, Khalil, what are her values? And 758 00:42:17,196 --> 00:42:19,516 Speaker 1: Jamala love that answer? Like you. You were up close 759 00:42:19,556 --> 00:42:21,876 Speaker 1: and personal with her. Um, You're right, you don't work 760 00:42:21,916 --> 00:42:24,876 Speaker 1: for her anymore, but you you do know her really well, 761 00:42:25,116 --> 00:42:28,036 Speaker 1: and so you saw these in practice, and so hearing 762 00:42:28,076 --> 00:42:32,956 Speaker 1: them from you is meaningful and if not yet persuasive, 763 00:42:33,196 --> 00:42:38,476 Speaker 1: it's at least influential. There's a lot of Listen, there's 764 00:42:38,476 --> 00:42:42,236 Speaker 1: so much ground between here and twenty twenty four or 765 00:42:42,276 --> 00:42:44,956 Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight. Yeah, there's a lot of that point. 766 00:42:46,036 --> 00:42:48,156 Speaker 1: But that point, you would the three of us will 767 00:42:48,156 --> 00:42:50,196 Speaker 1: be thinking about our social security. Do we want to 768 00:42:50,236 --> 00:42:51,996 Speaker 1: go early retirement or we're gonna make it all the 769 00:42:52,036 --> 00:42:53,876 Speaker 1: way to sixty five? Man? But I do want to 770 00:42:53,916 --> 00:42:56,196 Speaker 1: take this and Khalil, I'm gonna I'm gonna put you 771 00:42:56,276 --> 00:42:58,076 Speaker 1: in this camp. I think we've talked about this before. 772 00:42:58,596 --> 00:43:01,356 Speaker 1: I just gonna take a personal moment of pride that 773 00:43:01,516 --> 00:43:04,636 Speaker 1: the first black president Nited States was named Barack and 774 00:43:04,836 --> 00:43:07,836 Speaker 1: the first black woman vice president was named Kamala. They 775 00:43:07,916 --> 00:43:14,756 Speaker 1: were not named uh Brian and Camille and Leroy. I'm sorry, 776 00:43:15,356 --> 00:43:17,836 Speaker 1: Like you know we have I mean, you know, those 777 00:43:17,876 --> 00:43:20,436 Speaker 1: of us who've had names that are you know, rooted 778 00:43:20,436 --> 00:43:24,036 Speaker 1: in Africa or our you know, our other cultures, um 779 00:43:24,276 --> 00:43:27,996 Speaker 1: have always had this sort of shadow of people saying, oh, 780 00:43:28,196 --> 00:43:30,956 Speaker 1: your your opportunities are going to be diminished because you 781 00:43:31,076 --> 00:43:34,276 Speaker 1: have these names that's sound Anglo and you know that 782 00:43:34,396 --> 00:43:38,876 Speaker 1: quote unquote black sounding names that Bill Cosby, before his 783 00:43:39,156 --> 00:43:42,676 Speaker 1: his own self destruction, used to lampoon and make fun 784 00:43:42,756 --> 00:43:44,516 Speaker 1: of and tell Black people they were their own worst 785 00:43:44,596 --> 00:43:46,916 Speaker 1: enemies because they named their children these made up names. 786 00:43:47,236 --> 00:43:51,476 Speaker 1: What an asshole. But here we are, we've all proved 787 00:43:51,516 --> 00:43:55,236 Speaker 1: them wrong. Yeah, exactly three of the two of the 788 00:43:55,316 --> 00:43:57,916 Speaker 1: three of us here have those black on the names. 789 00:43:58,596 --> 00:44:02,596 Speaker 1: We're doing. Okay, that's right, We're doing the damn thing. 790 00:44:02,996 --> 00:44:05,516 Speaker 1: All right. We're gonna take a quick break before we 791 00:44:05,596 --> 00:44:24,916 Speaker 1: wrap things up with Jamal Simmons. We are back on 792 00:44:25,076 --> 00:44:28,596 Speaker 1: Some of my best friends are with Jamal Simmons. Jamal, 793 00:44:28,796 --> 00:44:31,156 Speaker 1: I actually want to go back earlier in your career 794 00:44:31,836 --> 00:44:35,756 Speaker 1: because you worked in the Clinton administration as well. Yeah, 795 00:44:35,996 --> 00:44:39,036 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking about when I first met you, you 796 00:44:39,156 --> 00:44:41,036 Speaker 1: gave off this vibe of somebody who wanted to go 797 00:44:41,076 --> 00:44:44,516 Speaker 1: into politics, like you had that about you. And I mean, actually, Khalil, 798 00:44:44,556 --> 00:44:46,996 Speaker 1: I want to you said that about me. I want 799 00:44:47,036 --> 00:44:49,116 Speaker 1: to throw that. I want to throw this at you, actually, Khalil, 800 00:44:49,196 --> 00:44:52,196 Speaker 1: because like, like I think everybody who knew Jamal then 801 00:44:52,316 --> 00:44:54,356 Speaker 1: was like that fool's going into politics in some way. 802 00:44:54,796 --> 00:44:57,796 Speaker 1: And but you know, Khalil, you had you had some 803 00:44:57,916 --> 00:45:01,356 Speaker 1: of these ambitions, I guess, but you never went into politics. 804 00:45:01,436 --> 00:45:03,676 Speaker 1: You didn't. You didn't look in that way. Did you 805 00:45:03,796 --> 00:45:05,596 Speaker 1: think that was something you want to do? Why or 806 00:45:05,676 --> 00:45:08,476 Speaker 1: why not? Like what? Oh, that's that's really that's funny 807 00:45:08,476 --> 00:45:11,076 Speaker 1: you should ask. Because I actually thought by fifty ben 808 00:45:11,436 --> 00:45:14,076 Speaker 1: that I would go into politics. It was the Obama 809 00:45:14,156 --> 00:45:17,116 Speaker 1: era that made me change my mind in the opposite direction, 810 00:45:17,316 --> 00:45:19,316 Speaker 1: as you know, as opposed to like actually living up 811 00:45:19,356 --> 00:45:21,276 Speaker 1: to the ambition. I actually figured I'd do the history 812 00:45:21,356 --> 00:45:25,076 Speaker 1: thing for about fifteen good years and I'd go into politics. 813 00:45:25,156 --> 00:45:32,556 Speaker 1: But yeah, Obama era kind of turned me off. Yeah, well, 814 00:45:32,676 --> 00:45:35,636 Speaker 1: I thought, like, you know, if if if a guy 815 00:45:35,796 --> 00:45:41,236 Speaker 1: this brilliant and this committed to uh political ambition. UM 816 00:45:42,116 --> 00:45:45,316 Speaker 1: can get into a position of power like this and 817 00:45:45,436 --> 00:45:50,396 Speaker 1: have such a hard time UM sort of reconciling his 818 00:45:50,556 --> 00:45:54,676 Speaker 1: own biography around racial justice and his own governance strategy. 819 00:45:54,756 --> 00:45:57,156 Speaker 1: It just seemed it was a little depressing. Um. You know, 820 00:45:57,276 --> 00:46:00,156 Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time frustrating with his first 821 00:46:00,516 --> 00:46:03,716 Speaker 1: term and very hopeful for his second term, and the 822 00:46:03,836 --> 00:46:08,796 Speaker 1: two together left me UM kind of disenchanted. You know, 823 00:46:09,396 --> 00:46:11,836 Speaker 1: even to this day. I think there's like a pill 824 00:46:11,956 --> 00:46:15,116 Speaker 1: that you get when you become elected to these uh 825 00:46:15,476 --> 00:46:18,916 Speaker 1: senior leadership roles, whether it's in Congress or in a 826 00:46:18,996 --> 00:46:21,356 Speaker 1: state house or in the White House, and you know, 827 00:46:21,556 --> 00:46:23,036 Speaker 1: you come in and you're like, all right, let's get 828 00:46:23,076 --> 00:46:25,556 Speaker 1: this shit done. Let's get let's let's do it. And 829 00:46:25,636 --> 00:46:28,596 Speaker 1: then someone like slips you a mickey, and you're like, Okay, 830 00:46:28,836 --> 00:46:31,516 Speaker 1: we have to follow the rules just as they have 831 00:46:31,676 --> 00:46:35,756 Speaker 1: been followed, and we're going to do these few disabuse 832 00:46:35,836 --> 00:46:39,476 Speaker 1: him of his notions educated I'm not. I'm actually gonna 833 00:46:39,476 --> 00:46:42,556 Speaker 1: put it in maybe at the context that is familiar. 834 00:46:43,036 --> 00:46:46,836 Speaker 1: I think about the president of a university, right, Um, 835 00:46:47,036 --> 00:46:50,836 Speaker 1: the president of a university kind of has power but 836 00:46:50,996 --> 00:46:53,636 Speaker 1: maybe the deans have more power than the president does. 837 00:46:53,796 --> 00:46:56,596 Speaker 1: Right in some ways the dean of in my school. 838 00:46:58,756 --> 00:47:00,916 Speaker 1: But don't the deans, I mean in some ways. So 839 00:47:01,196 --> 00:47:03,076 Speaker 1: you're the president, but you kind of you have all 840 00:47:03,156 --> 00:47:05,796 Speaker 1: these people who have their own little fiefdoms, right like 841 00:47:06,356 --> 00:47:09,876 Speaker 1: all of you know, journalism, the liberal or the school 842 00:47:09,956 --> 00:47:12,396 Speaker 1: of you know law. They have their own budgets, they 843 00:47:12,436 --> 00:47:15,716 Speaker 1: have their own little like worlds that they that they govern. Um. 844 00:47:16,436 --> 00:47:18,156 Speaker 1: And so you can kind of get them to do things, 845 00:47:18,356 --> 00:47:20,556 Speaker 1: but you just you're not the dictator, you know, like 846 00:47:20,956 --> 00:47:23,196 Speaker 1: you have to. So the president's not a dictator. The 847 00:47:23,276 --> 00:47:25,356 Speaker 1: president is sort of the one who can try to 848 00:47:25,396 --> 00:47:27,636 Speaker 1: cajole the people and the and the people who are 849 00:47:27,676 --> 00:47:30,596 Speaker 1: in charge, whether it's a congressional committee or it's a 850 00:47:30,716 --> 00:47:34,196 Speaker 1: governor or you know, whatever it is, they have a 851 00:47:34,596 --> 00:47:37,756 Speaker 1: say on what the president gets to do. Um. Now, 852 00:47:37,876 --> 00:47:39,996 Speaker 1: some people don't care about the rules. We had a 853 00:47:40,036 --> 00:47:43,436 Speaker 1: president like that from twenty seventeen. We've had a few 854 00:47:43,436 --> 00:47:47,956 Speaker 1: of those, but what one very recently, they don't care. 855 00:47:48,076 --> 00:47:50,716 Speaker 1: They do whatever they think, whatever they want. That tends 856 00:47:50,756 --> 00:47:54,956 Speaker 1: to not end well, um for those people, because you know, 857 00:47:55,316 --> 00:47:57,076 Speaker 1: you sort of have you have to. It's the consent 858 00:47:57,196 --> 00:47:59,876 Speaker 1: of the government. And I think if the if the 859 00:48:00,236 --> 00:48:04,436 Speaker 1: if the population is split about what it wants, it 860 00:48:04,596 --> 00:48:08,356 Speaker 1: is very hard for the president to muscle through big 861 00:48:08,476 --> 00:48:13,556 Speaker 1: ideas against the will of say fifty percent of the people. 862 00:48:13,876 --> 00:48:17,356 Speaker 1: You can do that maybe once, maybe twice, and one 863 00:48:17,476 --> 00:48:19,636 Speaker 1: might argue healthcare could have been one of those times 864 00:48:19,716 --> 00:48:22,156 Speaker 1: for the president President Obama. It's very hard to do 865 00:48:22,236 --> 00:48:27,836 Speaker 1: that insistently. Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I think that 866 00:48:28,596 --> 00:48:31,716 Speaker 1: I'm curious since you were part of the Clinton administration 867 00:48:31,916 --> 00:48:34,676 Speaker 1: and you were a young buck like you know, like 868 00:48:34,836 --> 00:48:36,916 Speaker 1: we all were back when we were in our twenties. 869 00:48:37,236 --> 00:48:40,316 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that was a consequential presidency. A 870 00:48:40,396 --> 00:48:42,916 Speaker 1: lot of big things happened, and of course in hindsight, 871 00:48:43,156 --> 00:48:46,596 Speaker 1: from the crime bill to the Welfare reform bill, which 872 00:48:46,676 --> 00:48:48,476 Speaker 1: you know, gut it a lot of the social safety 873 00:48:48,516 --> 00:48:51,556 Speaker 1: net to the poorest Americans. You know, how did you 874 00:48:51,676 --> 00:48:55,356 Speaker 1: experience that period working in the Clinton administration? What what 875 00:48:55,636 --> 00:48:59,116 Speaker 1: what is your sense of how you experienced that then 876 00:48:59,516 --> 00:49:03,076 Speaker 1: as compared to what you've just been through. So those 877 00:49:03,156 --> 00:49:05,836 Speaker 1: things happened, The crime bill happened, the Welfare reform bill happened. 878 00:49:05,996 --> 00:49:08,596 Speaker 1: I will say the welfare reform bill happened, and both 879 00:49:08,636 --> 00:49:12,196 Speaker 1: of those happened with a lot of support from unlikely places. Today, 880 00:49:12,396 --> 00:49:13,916 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people today who were complaining 881 00:49:13,916 --> 00:49:15,956 Speaker 1: about those bills, who were in favor of them at 882 00:49:15,996 --> 00:49:19,316 Speaker 1: the time. So you know, but the history is that 883 00:49:19,756 --> 00:49:22,996 Speaker 1: but including members of the Congressional Black Hawks, absolutely, a 884 00:49:23,036 --> 00:49:24,956 Speaker 1: lot of mayors of big cities, a lot of members 885 00:49:24,956 --> 00:49:28,596 Speaker 1: of Congressional Black Caukis. But at the same time, during 886 00:49:28,636 --> 00:49:31,756 Speaker 1: that era, you also saw a profound amount of growth 887 00:49:31,876 --> 00:49:34,356 Speaker 1: in black wealth. You saw more black homeownership, you saw 888 00:49:34,436 --> 00:49:37,476 Speaker 1: the lowest black unemployment, you saw more black kids going 889 00:49:37,516 --> 00:49:42,036 Speaker 1: to college, you saw higher incomes among African Americans beginning 890 00:49:42,076 --> 00:49:44,676 Speaker 1: to go up. The debt of the government was sort 891 00:49:44,676 --> 00:49:49,436 Speaker 1: of going down. So the economic prospects for black people 892 00:49:50,036 --> 00:49:53,596 Speaker 1: actually were improving, while of course, you had these social 893 00:49:53,676 --> 00:49:56,076 Speaker 1: costs on the other side that we all look back 894 00:49:56,156 --> 00:49:58,356 Speaker 1: and say they probably we went to far and some 895 00:49:58,476 --> 00:50:00,996 Speaker 1: of those social things, the crime bill being the big one. 896 00:50:01,156 --> 00:50:04,036 Speaker 1: But you can also look at the crime bill not 897 00:50:04,116 --> 00:50:05,876 Speaker 1: to make excuses for it. This is just the politics 898 00:50:05,916 --> 00:50:11,796 Speaker 1: of sausage making. While there were these horror punitive laws 899 00:50:11,876 --> 00:50:14,396 Speaker 1: that put people in jail for a long period of time. 900 00:50:14,716 --> 00:50:17,516 Speaker 1: There also was the Violence Against Women Act. There also 901 00:50:17,636 --> 00:50:20,076 Speaker 1: was an assault weapons band that was in that bill. 902 00:50:20,676 --> 00:50:22,516 Speaker 1: We haven't been able to get an assault weapons band 903 00:50:22,556 --> 00:50:26,156 Speaker 1: passed since that bill was done. So there are things 904 00:50:26,236 --> 00:50:28,516 Speaker 1: sometimes in politics that you feel like you have to 905 00:50:28,636 --> 00:50:32,076 Speaker 1: do something you don't like in order to get something 906 00:50:32,156 --> 00:50:35,076 Speaker 1: done that you think will actually be something you like 907 00:50:35,236 --> 00:50:37,316 Speaker 1: and you want to see done. You can shut down 908 00:50:37,396 --> 00:50:39,396 Speaker 1: the bad stuff before it gets to be too bad. 909 00:50:39,676 --> 00:50:41,556 Speaker 1: If it's if you start, you are doing your job. 910 00:50:41,676 --> 00:50:45,196 Speaker 1: You are modeling your job right now giving us. You 911 00:50:45,236 --> 00:50:55,076 Speaker 1: are a schooling us on how to sell the communic Listen, 912 00:50:55,476 --> 00:50:58,156 Speaker 1: this was such a great conversation, was so great talking 913 00:50:58,236 --> 00:51:00,476 Speaker 1: to you. We are just so happy that you made 914 00:51:00,516 --> 00:51:04,236 Speaker 1: time for us. We appreciate the you sharing sensitive government 915 00:51:04,316 --> 00:51:08,356 Speaker 1: secrets with us. We appreciate you helping to make sense 916 00:51:08,436 --> 00:51:10,876 Speaker 1: of the conflictated things that happened behind the scenes of 917 00:51:10,956 --> 00:51:13,596 Speaker 1: the White House, and we look forward to what comes 918 00:51:13,676 --> 00:51:17,116 Speaker 1: next for you and for Vice President Kamala Harris. Well, 919 00:51:17,196 --> 00:51:19,676 Speaker 1: thank you, and this is my first podcast interview since 920 00:51:19,756 --> 00:51:22,316 Speaker 1: leaving the White House, so I am excited to do it. 921 00:51:22,396 --> 00:51:25,036 Speaker 1: I appreciate you guys having me, and I'm looking forward 922 00:51:25,076 --> 00:51:27,956 Speaker 1: to more episodes to find out who some of your 923 00:51:27,996 --> 00:51:30,436 Speaker 1: best friends right on, Jamal, right on, Jamal, You got it? 924 00:51:31,996 --> 00:51:46,276 Speaker 1: Thanks man, all right, thanks guys, Khalil. We broke some 925 00:51:46,436 --> 00:51:48,676 Speaker 1: news on this episode on Some of my best friends 926 00:51:48,716 --> 00:51:51,476 Speaker 1: are today we are. This is amazing and so by 927 00:51:51,596 --> 00:51:55,876 Speaker 1: my account, I think we broke three things three story. One, 928 00:51:56,716 --> 00:52:01,676 Speaker 1: Joe Biden is running in twenty twenty four. Two. Kamala Harris, 929 00:52:02,196 --> 00:52:04,756 Speaker 1: despite all the criticism, is going to be his running 930 00:52:04,796 --> 00:52:06,916 Speaker 1: mate in twenty twenty four. We heard it here first, 931 00:52:07,436 --> 00:52:10,796 Speaker 1: some of my best friends are number three. The next 932 00:52:10,836 --> 00:52:13,676 Speaker 1: time there's an opening, Kamala Harris is gonna run. She's 933 00:52:13,676 --> 00:52:15,796 Speaker 1: going to be at the top of the ticket. Yeah. Man, 934 00:52:16,156 --> 00:52:19,916 Speaker 1: that's that's really, that's such important news. We did this, man, 935 00:52:19,996 --> 00:52:22,836 Speaker 1: we did this together. Listen. Awesome, but no, seriously, man, 936 00:52:22,916 --> 00:52:26,876 Speaker 1: I mean listen, this is high stakes politics, right. We 937 00:52:27,276 --> 00:52:30,076 Speaker 1: really are talking about a country on the precipice, and 938 00:52:30,196 --> 00:52:33,196 Speaker 1: the fact that that's where we've come at this moment 939 00:52:33,316 --> 00:52:37,236 Speaker 1: in terms of national politics means that this next presidential 940 00:52:37,356 --> 00:52:41,036 Speaker 1: race is probably more important than the last two we've had. 941 00:52:41,196 --> 00:52:44,916 Speaker 1: And I mean for real, So in light of that, 942 00:52:45,316 --> 00:52:48,916 Speaker 1: I mean, I took a lot of inspiration from Jamal's 943 00:52:48,996 --> 00:52:51,956 Speaker 1: insights about Kamala Harris, I have, you know, much better 944 00:52:52,036 --> 00:52:54,716 Speaker 1: sense of who she is as a person, and amazing, 945 00:52:54,796 --> 00:52:56,436 Speaker 1: amazing to get to speak with him. I mean, he 946 00:52:56,516 --> 00:53:00,356 Speaker 1: really gave us an an insider's view, that's right. But 947 00:53:00,516 --> 00:53:02,676 Speaker 1: there's one thing that I just want to sort of 948 00:53:02,716 --> 00:53:06,436 Speaker 1: think about because I think it matters. You know. He 949 00:53:06,596 --> 00:53:09,676 Speaker 1: talked about how leaders lead and active do their thing, 950 00:53:09,756 --> 00:53:12,316 Speaker 1: and often the activists have to push the leaders in 951 00:53:12,516 --> 00:53:15,556 Speaker 1: order for them to be effective. And while I think 952 00:53:15,836 --> 00:53:18,996 Speaker 1: maybe on paper that's generally true, it's not always true 953 00:53:19,036 --> 00:53:22,756 Speaker 1: in practice. And I'm thinking about when in the middle 954 00:53:22,796 --> 00:53:25,796 Speaker 1: of Black Lives Matter during the Obama administration. I know 955 00:53:25,956 --> 00:53:30,236 Speaker 1: people like Deray McKesson actually know him as a personal friend, 956 00:53:30,876 --> 00:53:32,876 Speaker 1: and he talked about being at the White House and 957 00:53:32,956 --> 00:53:36,756 Speaker 1: talking to Obama and he basically said like they weren't listening, 958 00:53:37,036 --> 00:53:40,716 Speaker 1: and they were basically saying, like, you guys are messing 959 00:53:40,796 --> 00:53:44,196 Speaker 1: it up, because we got this. And so I just 960 00:53:44,356 --> 00:53:47,876 Speaker 1: want to say for the record that we have to 961 00:53:48,356 --> 00:53:51,876 Speaker 1: not take for granted that our leaders are actually going 962 00:53:51,956 --> 00:53:55,276 Speaker 1: to respond when activists are doing their work, and that 963 00:53:55,516 --> 00:53:59,556 Speaker 1: that way, Kamala potentially will have an amazing presidency if 964 00:53:59,676 --> 00:54:02,836 Speaker 1: everybody keeps their eyes focused on the issues that will 965 00:54:02,836 --> 00:54:07,516 Speaker 1: save this democracy. That's interesting because I'm thinking about that 966 00:54:07,636 --> 00:54:09,476 Speaker 1: what you just said, and I'm thinking about all we 967 00:54:09,596 --> 00:54:12,636 Speaker 1: learned from Jamal, because I certainly have a better understanding 968 00:54:13,116 --> 00:54:16,036 Speaker 1: of what a vice president does and all the limitations 969 00:54:16,236 --> 00:54:19,836 Speaker 1: on her, and that when he was talking about how 970 00:54:19,876 --> 00:54:23,516 Speaker 1: you can't outshine the president or necessarily disagree, he said, 971 00:54:23,516 --> 00:54:25,436 Speaker 1: you have one bite of that apple, you maybe you 972 00:54:25,436 --> 00:54:28,476 Speaker 1: can do it once. And so so that sense of 973 00:54:28,596 --> 00:54:32,036 Speaker 1: being of being limited by this role, which is largely 974 00:54:32,156 --> 00:54:36,396 Speaker 1: symbolic and political, and so what you were just describing 975 00:54:37,036 --> 00:54:40,236 Speaker 1: of in the VP role for Kamala Harris, how you 976 00:54:40,316 --> 00:54:44,716 Speaker 1: could how you could then sort of push policy beyond 977 00:54:44,796 --> 00:54:48,116 Speaker 1: where it is. One of the things I've been thinking 978 00:54:48,156 --> 00:54:51,716 Speaker 1: about in from this talk is like that she the 979 00:54:51,836 --> 00:54:55,476 Speaker 1: moments when she has shined are in these symbolic spaces 980 00:54:55,836 --> 00:54:58,916 Speaker 1: when she's spoken to the issues that you're talking about, 981 00:54:59,316 --> 00:55:02,556 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, you know, I haven't felt like I 982 00:55:02,636 --> 00:55:04,476 Speaker 1: haven't seen her around and do the kind of things 983 00:55:04,516 --> 00:55:07,636 Speaker 1: you're just describing, and I mean, maybe there's even more 984 00:55:07,756 --> 00:55:10,756 Speaker 1: she can do in those spaces. Is that feel symbolic, 985 00:55:10,876 --> 00:55:13,756 Speaker 1: but also feel like they're they're touching the most critical 986 00:55:13,836 --> 00:55:17,316 Speaker 1: issues of the country at the same time. Right, Well, 987 00:55:17,556 --> 00:55:19,596 Speaker 1: I'll just say, I mean, we learn from Jamal that 988 00:55:19,676 --> 00:55:23,956 Speaker 1: vice president's job is primarily to stay alive in case 989 00:55:23,996 --> 00:55:27,436 Speaker 1: they're they need to become president and to break votes 990 00:55:27,716 --> 00:55:31,036 Speaker 1: in Congress. My suggestion is really about if she does 991 00:55:31,116 --> 00:55:34,556 Speaker 1: become president, I mean, yeah, whenever that happens, and what 992 00:55:34,836 --> 00:55:40,356 Speaker 1: we hope will be her ability to literally save the democracy, 993 00:55:40,716 --> 00:55:44,116 Speaker 1: to pursue a scale of equity and justice in this 994 00:55:44,196 --> 00:55:47,276 Speaker 1: country that we've not yet seen, and deliver on the 995 00:55:47,356 --> 00:55:50,276 Speaker 1: promise that being a black woman, or a black Asian 996 00:55:50,556 --> 00:55:53,996 Speaker 1: or any kind of first means more than just the 997 00:55:54,396 --> 00:55:57,876 Speaker 1: symbolic and representational pride that comes with it. Yeah, I 998 00:55:57,956 --> 00:56:00,596 Speaker 1: mean I think a lot about sharing her identity politics 999 00:56:00,676 --> 00:56:05,716 Speaker 1: and not say sharing her politics her policies. But I 1000 00:56:05,796 --> 00:56:08,676 Speaker 1: appreciated what Jamal said about that we don't really know 1001 00:56:08,836 --> 00:56:11,716 Speaker 1: her yet and that a presidential campaign is also a 1002 00:56:11,796 --> 00:56:14,676 Speaker 1: process of getting to know somebody, and we're going to 1003 00:56:14,796 --> 00:56:16,916 Speaker 1: learn more about her and she's also going to continue 1004 00:56:16,956 --> 00:56:21,196 Speaker 1: to fill this role. So this was really a valuable 1005 00:56:21,276 --> 00:56:25,236 Speaker 1: talk and I appreciate you. All Right, Love You Man, 1006 00:56:25,836 --> 00:56:34,356 Speaker 1: Love You Too. Some of My Best Friends Are is 1007 00:56:34,396 --> 00:56:37,756 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written and 1008 00:56:37,876 --> 00:56:40,956 Speaker 1: hosted by me Khalil, Jibron Mohammed and my best friend 1009 00:56:41,116 --> 00:56:45,396 Speaker 1: Ben Austin. 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