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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, where we

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Speaker 1: discuss all things mental health, personal development, and all the

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Speaker 1: small decisions we can make to become the best possible

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Speaker 1: versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Harden Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information

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Speaker 1: and resources, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls

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Speaker 1: dot com. And while I hope you love listening to

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Speaker 1: and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to

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Speaker 1: be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental

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Speaker 1: health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me

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Speaker 1: for session twelve of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not sure about you, but I can't wait

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Speaker 1: until July twenty three when we get to see the

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Speaker 1: second season of HBO's Insecure. So if you're a fan

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Speaker 1: of the show, you know they left us with quite

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Speaker 1: the cliffhanger last season, and I definitely can't wait to

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Speaker 1: see where things pick up. But to hold you over

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Speaker 1: into July, I have a very special on the Couch

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Speaker 1: episode where we talk all about what therapy might look

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Speaker 1: like with Molly. So you know, at the end of

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Speaker 1: last season they kind of tease the idea that Molly

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Speaker 1: may need some therapy. So we're going to give you

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Speaker 1: a taste of what it might look like with this

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Speaker 1: special guest therapist. So today I'm joined by licensed Marriage

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Speaker 1: and Family therapist Esther Boykin. Esther wants to live in

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Speaker 1: a world where everyone has at least one amazing relationship

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Speaker 1: in their life, the kind of relationship where they feel

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Speaker 1: safe to be themselves and know that they are loved

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Speaker 1: wholeheartedly because of it. As a licensed marriage and family therapist,

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Speaker 1: relationship coach and expert, her simple yet effective ships and

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Speaker 1: philosophy fees on relationships and self care has been featured

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Speaker 1: in a variety of TV, digital, print and radio media

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Speaker 1: outlets including Good Morning Washington, Fox five, d C, The

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Speaker 1: New York Times, Serious x M, Bustle, Real Simple dot Com,

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Speaker 1: Hitched mag, Read Book, and Glamour. When she's not working

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Speaker 1: with couples and individuals to create more joyful and connected lives,

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Speaker 1: she can be found drinking coffee, hosting her podcast with

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Speaker 1: that being said, leading a workshop, writing blog posts, or

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Speaker 1: working on her next retreat. Her first book, The Date Deck,

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Speaker 1: because every couple needs a date Night, hit the shelves

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Speaker 1: in February and is disavailable at Amazon, Borns and Noble,

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Speaker 1: and independent bookstores all over. I think that you'll really

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Speaker 1: enjoy this conversation with Esther, So thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me today. Esther, I really appreciate you taking

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Speaker 1: out some time out of your schedule to chat with me.

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Speaker 1: So tell us which character you are going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about today. I would like to talk about Molly

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Speaker 1: from Insecure, the HBO show. Okay, and for those of

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Speaker 1: us who may not be familiar with the show, can

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Speaker 1: you give us a little background on her? Sure? UM,

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Speaker 1: I was actually just sort of looking. I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I need like the full backstory, and

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Speaker 1: I watched it all the whole show. But Molly is

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Speaker 1: essentially you know, um, you know, young successful professional black woman. UM.

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Speaker 1: The show really starts around her and her best friend. UM.

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Speaker 1: And so she's any you know, an attorney trying to

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Speaker 1: find love. Is probably the best way to describe that. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, she's she's single but dating. UM. As I said,

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, very successful professionally, UM, maybe not

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Speaker 1: quite so successful romantically. And what are some of the

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Speaker 1: issues that you feel like she's dealing with them might

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Speaker 1: actually lead her to therapy. I mean, and I think

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Speaker 1: this is an interesting one to discuss because there was

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Speaker 1: a whole conversation about therapy um in the season finale

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Speaker 1: of Insecure. Um, so this could be a nice segue

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Speaker 1: into the new season. I hope, so fingers crossed that

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Speaker 1: that it plays out how it often plays out. Frankly, UM,

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Speaker 1: when I find myself working with clients very similar to her,

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Speaker 1: is that more often that there's sort of this maybe

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Speaker 1: nagging kind of voice in the back of the head,

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Speaker 1: like why can't I get into a relationship, Why can't

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Speaker 1: I find that sort of perfect partner for me? Um?

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Speaker 1: But my guess is that, you know, a woman like

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Speaker 1: Molly is probably gonna end up in therapy somewhat reluctantly

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Speaker 1: because people that she cares about have now sort of

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Speaker 1: gently or not so gently, sort of put it out

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Speaker 1: there that will maybe that's an option. And so in

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Speaker 1: the show, she bumped into an old friend. Um. You

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Speaker 1: know that they she and Lisa, her best friend had

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Speaker 1: from college, and you know, she's like, oh, you look great,

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Speaker 1: so crowded. So and this other woman says, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like therapy has been fantastic for me, you should think

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Speaker 1: about it. And she was so offended, but then it

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Speaker 1: sort of opened the door I think for her, Um,

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Speaker 1: and you know, and Lisa, her best friend character on

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Speaker 1: the show, to really talk, you know, to kind of

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Speaker 1: at least broach the subject of but maybe that is

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Speaker 1: something that would be helpful. Maybe that is something that

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Speaker 1: would be good for you to start to look at them,

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Speaker 1: what's really happening in all of these sort of failed

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Speaker 1: relationships and failed attempts at relationships. Right, and you mentioned

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Speaker 1: um that she would likely go somewhat reluctantly. Um, so

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Speaker 1: can you say more about why Molly and maybe people

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Speaker 1: who are similar to Molly may be so reluctant Because

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Speaker 1: our perception of therapy is that it's for crazy people,

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Speaker 1: broken people, people whose lives are a mess. You know

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Speaker 1: that that is so the opposite of sort of the

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Speaker 1: image we hold of successful black women, professional women that

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Speaker 1: we need to be strong. And because there is this

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Speaker 1: such a stark contrast in this dichotomy, it makes it

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Speaker 1: really difficult for successful black women to to find a

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Speaker 1: comfortable space to actually participate in therapy because you have

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Speaker 1: to sort of break that down because it's almost as

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Speaker 1: if that means admitting that your whole life is a mess,

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Speaker 1: rather than sort of acknowledging that you my whole life

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Speaker 1: isn't a mess. But there are things that maybe I'm

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Speaker 1: struggling with or things that I want that I don't

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Speaker 1: seem to be able to figure out how to create

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Speaker 1: in my life. And this is just one more tool,

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Speaker 1: you know, It's one more place for me to you know,

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Speaker 1: to learn and to grow and develop skills just like

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Speaker 1: we you would do you know, at school or any

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Speaker 1: number of other places. Right, So you mentioned that, um,

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Speaker 1: likely the reason she would come would be that someone

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Speaker 1: else would, um kind of lead her. There are enough

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Speaker 1: people would kind of plant the seed that she would

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Speaker 1: kind of finally say, okay, let me go check this out. Um.

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Speaker 1: So what are some of the things that you think

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Speaker 1: she might come in and say, um, like that she

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Speaker 1: would want to work on, Like, what would some of

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Speaker 1: her goals be once she finally did come in for counseling? Uh? Dating,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you know I work with a number

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Speaker 1: of you know of women, UM, and it is one

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Speaker 1: of particularly at at that sort of age. I think

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Speaker 1: once you sort of get to you know, thirty ish,

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Speaker 1: m that is there that's often the poll is I

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Speaker 1: want to find somebody I you know, like I'm at

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Speaker 1: a place where like I want to be connected and

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Speaker 1: be in a relationship. And you know, whether it's say,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's no good men out here or you know,

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Speaker 1: in her case, she found somebody she really clicked with, UM,

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Speaker 1: but you know, he hadn't gone like, he wasn't well

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Speaker 1: at you cated, and didn't fit sort of the image

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Speaker 1: of her life. And by the time she sort of

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Speaker 1: was pushing herself to get over that, she kind of

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Speaker 1: ruined that relationship. You know, she had made it really difficult,

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Speaker 1: and so I could see her character sort of coming

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Speaker 1: in around like I just want to figure out like

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Speaker 1: who do I you know, like how can I get

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Speaker 1: better at dating? And you know, like I'm sick of

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Speaker 1: not being you know, in a relationship. How do I

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Speaker 1: fix this? How do I find the right one? Okay,

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Speaker 1: So what are some of the strategies you might use

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Speaker 1: to work with her around kind of getting ready to

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Speaker 1: date and you know, dating more successfully. Um. Probably one

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Speaker 1: of the least favorite things of all my clients were

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Speaker 1: to say, is well, you know, the only thing we

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Speaker 1: can work on is you that like, and the truth

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Speaker 1: is that's you know, and you know, I know that,

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Speaker 1: you know, like that's the secret sauce. Like, if you

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Speaker 1: are unhappy, whether it's dating or you're married or your kids, Like,

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Speaker 1: if you are unhappy about the way your relationships are working,

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Speaker 1: the best place to start is going out, Well, what's

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Speaker 1: going on with me? What is it that I'm looking for?

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Speaker 1: What do I need? How am I contributing? You know,

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Speaker 1: how am I getting in my own way of having

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Speaker 1: that or attracting those people or creating that? And you know,

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Speaker 1: the storyline was so perfect because really she had she

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Speaker 1: would have come in having a very tangible moment for

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Speaker 1: us to really work around. So then let's go back

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Speaker 1: and let's talk about it like what did what did

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Speaker 1: you really like about this guy? You know, what felt

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Speaker 1: right about it? And then what felt wrong about it?

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Speaker 1: And what was that like? And sort of really challenging

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Speaker 1: some of those unconscious um or conscious but those long

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Speaker 1: held beliefs about what the perfect partner is supposed to

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Speaker 1: look like for her and helping her to really explode,

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Speaker 1: to really read define what that means. Yeah, and it

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Speaker 1: seems like there was a point in this season which

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Speaker 1: would have likely been the point where she would have

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Speaker 1: gone to therapy. So after the whole um pseudo relationship

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Speaker 1: with the Gina's character, I forget his name on the show. UM,

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Speaker 1: but when he you know, kind of seemed like he

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Speaker 1: was and in and then showed up to the Engage

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Speaker 1: reporting because Um, according to him, it really felt like

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Speaker 1: she needed to have a win kind of thing. UM,

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Speaker 1: So that felt really crushing. I think even as an

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Speaker 1: outside of the looking in UM. You know, so I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking that likely would have been the point where she

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Speaker 1: would have kind of stepped back into it. Okay, you know,

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Speaker 1: I really need to kind of figure out what's going

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Speaker 1: on with me and the guys that I am attracting

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Speaker 1: to me UM that this doesn't ever attend to end

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Speaker 1: up the way that I'm wanting it to. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: to totally agree. I think that would have been a

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Speaker 1: key moment. And then I think also when she had

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Speaker 1: when she and Umsa had the big fight and then

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Speaker 1: like kind of weren't Like I think that's another sort

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Speaker 1: of relationship point where it's like, I mean, they both

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Speaker 1: they've said something they really you know, when people know

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Speaker 1: you really well and care about you and you get

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Speaker 1: angry and you kind of call each other out on

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Speaker 1: some of your your your issues or you know, some

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Speaker 1: of the things that you're maybe not addressing. I felt

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Speaker 1: like that was a bit would have been potentially been

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Speaker 1: another point of coming in to really talk about like

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Speaker 1: isn't this working? And I suspect it would have started

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Speaker 1: from a place of how do I get over these

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Speaker 1: people who are treating me wrong as opposed to what's

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Speaker 1: going on with me that this is this seems to

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Speaker 1: keep happening, or that that's you know, and that's my experiences,

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Speaker 1: which is what I love about therapy is that it's

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Speaker 1: a process, and so in some ways it doesn't really

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Speaker 1: matter where you start, Like what that that pivotal moment

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Speaker 1: is that says I'm gonna go and I'm gonna try

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Speaker 1: this or I'm gonna look at things that you know,

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Speaker 1: you developed this rapport and then we begin to sort

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Speaker 1: of unpack all of it that maybe it's not just

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Speaker 1: these other people or that you're just attracting the wrong type.

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Speaker 1: But you know, what does that say when you're with

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Speaker 1: somebody who doesn't know you really well and that the

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Speaker 1: energy around you is that you needed a win that

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Speaker 1: you know, like here's this person who's sort of like yeah,

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Speaker 1: like out of this, you know, I mean it was

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Speaker 1: a crushing thing to say, but sort of this very

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Speaker 1: misguided kind of sense of compassion, like it just feels

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Speaker 1: like you can't catch a break and you're really like hurting.

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Speaker 1: And you know, as terrible as that moment was, you know,

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Speaker 1: I would want to help her to sort of say, like,

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Speaker 1: but what do you think he was picking up on?

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Speaker 1: Because people do pick up on stuff? You know what

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Speaker 1: was he totally wrong? Right? Right? And so you're talking about, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, some work that can be very difficult, especially

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Speaker 1: you know if someone comes in saying, well the issue

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Speaker 1: is not me, it's all these other people around me. Um.

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Speaker 1: And so to help them to kind of get to

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Speaker 1: a place where they are able to kind of look

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Speaker 1: at their own stuff, Um, can you talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about what needs to happen or you know, what

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Speaker 1: kinds of things you maybe do as a therapist to

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Speaker 1: try to help someone kind of get a little closer

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Speaker 1: to that place. Yeah, you know, my personal approach or

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Speaker 1: my professional APPROACHEC I guess I should say, is I

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Speaker 1: like to meet people exactly where they are. So if

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Speaker 1: that's what you if you come in and that's just

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Speaker 1: what you're thinking, then we're going to start there. But

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of it is asked is us

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Speaker 1: building a relationship and then be asking questions that are uncomfortable,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you know, I think that's the process

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Speaker 1: that happens has to happen in tandem. You have to

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Speaker 1: learn to sort of trust that I care about you,

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Speaker 1: that you know, I see the best qualities in you.

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Speaker 1: I want you know that I understand what you want

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Speaker 1: to achieve, what you want in your life. And then

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Speaker 1: that foundation of trust allows me to say, Okay, first

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Speaker 1: of all, you're the only person here, so like I

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Speaker 1: can't fix anybody else that's out there, even if there

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Speaker 1: is a problem, So whether it's something that they're doing

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Speaker 1: or the fact that you continue being related them, either way,

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Speaker 1: we have to work with what's in the room. And

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Speaker 1: what's in the room is you know, you and I

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Speaker 1: and let's talk about that. But you know, I try to.

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Speaker 1: I think every therapist does it a little differently, but

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Speaker 1: ultimately I do think it begins with our ability to

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Speaker 1: create a safe environment and a healthy therapeutic relationship. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I completely agree with you. I think, especially you know,

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Speaker 1: when it has been maybe so difficult to finally take

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Speaker 1: the step of going to see it therapi is um.

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Speaker 1: You know, people don't want to feel judged or you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of like you're gonna be jumping down their throat

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Speaker 1: saying you're the problem. You're the problem, you're the problem,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to Okay, I can gently hold whatever you're

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Speaker 1: coming in with and we can kind of work towards

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Speaker 1: whatever goal you set for yourself. Yeah, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and I'm big on when I tell you know, and

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Speaker 1: I'd say this in session sometimes, you know, when I'm

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Speaker 1: saying that we need to work on to you, that's

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Speaker 1: not the same as me saying that you're the problem.

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Speaker 1: It's just you hold the power to make changes in

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Speaker 1: your life. No one else actually can control that. And

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Speaker 1: so you know, for me saying let's work on you

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Speaker 1: and your stuff and let's understand kind of your experience

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Speaker 1: how we got here, it's really ultimately my goal is

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Speaker 1: I want you to feel empowered. I want you to

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Speaker 1: feel like the more you learn and understand who you

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Speaker 1: are and how you operate relationships and and what are

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Speaker 1: someone maybe the beliefs that get in the way of

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Speaker 1: you having what you really want yourself. The more of

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Speaker 1: that you do, the more in charge of your life,

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Speaker 1: you will be caught because notter than what else happens,

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Speaker 1: you understand yourself well enough to make better choices, engage

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Speaker 1: in better relationships, set healthier boundaries. All of that stuff

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Speaker 1: is really ultimately about I want you to live your

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Speaker 1: best life. I want you to feel like you're capable

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Speaker 1: of doing that because you understand yourself better as opposed

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Speaker 1: to looking for somebody to blame. So it sounds like

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Speaker 1: you see women like Molly um pretty frequently in your practice. UM, So,

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Speaker 1: can you maybe give us, like some themes that have

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Speaker 1: come up with um, you know, in your work around

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Speaker 1: people who are struggling with dating, like some of the

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Speaker 1: things you have helped them to kind of do. So

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Speaker 1: I would say probably, you know, the number one theme

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Speaker 1: is usually what we and a lot of time talking

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Speaker 1: about is vulnerability. How do you make how can you

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Speaker 1: open yourself up? Because a lot of times at the

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Speaker 1: root of some of these things like oh he has

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Speaker 1: to look this way, he has to you know, have

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Speaker 1: this kind of job, drive, this kind of car um

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Speaker 1: or you know, feeling like you can't connect with people

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Speaker 1: is really often about that there's a wall up. It's

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Speaker 1: about sort of self protection and so beginning to kind

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Speaker 1: of slow down the process, like, Okay, what is it

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Speaker 1: that you want to have in a relationship beyond those

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Speaker 1: surface things? And you know, for the most part, we

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Speaker 1: all want the same thing. We want to feel loved

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Speaker 1: and appreciated and cared for and respected. And in order

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Speaker 1: to create that, we have to also be able to

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Speaker 1: tolerate really difficult things like disappointment and sadness and rejection.

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Speaker 1: And that's often where the work starts. When I talk

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Speaker 1: about doing that, like we gotta work on your stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's usually around either an early relationship, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: a first boyfriend and a previous marriage, or oftentimes and

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Speaker 1: childhood um trauma or childhood relationships, be it with their

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Speaker 1: father or and sometimes it's it's actually the relationship with

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Speaker 1: one's mother. I know, we you know, we all kind

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Speaker 1: of hear, you know, oh, she's got daddy issues and

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Speaker 1: that's the problem. But really understanding what we learn in

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Speaker 1: childhood about how safe it is to truly love somebody,

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Speaker 1: to really trust someone, to sort of allow ourselves to

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Speaker 1: fully be present and seen by other people, starts with

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Speaker 1: both parents, not just you know, your dad. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: that's very powerful. I mean, and I think that has

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Speaker 1: been my experience too. Is that a lot of the

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Speaker 1: relationship issue that you're kind of finding in romantic relationships

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Speaker 1: stems from, you know, those early childhood relationships. And so

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Speaker 1: I know, you know, we don't want to kind of

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Speaker 1: get to theoretical or give an entire treatment playing UM,

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Speaker 1: but can you speak briefly about um, like what kinds

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Speaker 1: of things you would do to work through some of

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Speaker 1: that childhood trauma? Like when something like that has been

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Speaker 1: kind of you know, on you for so many years

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Speaker 1: and you're just realizing like, oh, that's where a lot

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Speaker 1: of that comes from. What kinds of things can you

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Speaker 1: do in therapy to work through some of that? Sure,

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Speaker 1: So I am I tend to be very processed oriented therapist,

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Speaker 1: and so UM in session, really we just spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time talking um. You know, so it's a

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Speaker 1: lot of me listening, and I spend a lot of

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Speaker 1: time listening for process and then pointing that stuff out.

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Speaker 1: And so it's just like I just want us to

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Speaker 1: discuss it. I don't want to be able to say

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Speaker 1: to you. I wonder if that's related to that experience

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Speaker 1: you told me about, you know, when you were seven

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Speaker 1: with your mom. I see this parallel? Do you see

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Speaker 1: the parallel? Can you see how when you felt rejected

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Speaker 1: you know, by her around this particular area, that that

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Speaker 1: same feeling is happening here. And then we've over time

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Speaker 1: beginning to of practice UM, particularly once somebody is actually

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Speaker 1: dating someone else, you know, really kind of when there's

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Speaker 1: a conflict or when you're feeling insecure in a relationship,

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Speaker 1: bringing that up and sort of going okay, can you

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Speaker 1: slow that down? Can you now is that because they're

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Speaker 1: triggering something that's old or is that because of something

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Speaker 1: that's happening in the present, And can you learn to

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Speaker 1: do that more tangibly. Most of my homework centers around

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Speaker 1: self care UM, because you know, we teach other people

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Speaker 1: how to love and care for us, and so if

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Speaker 1: we're not practicing that in our daily lives, we're going

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Speaker 1: to consistently attract people who don't take care of us

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Speaker 1: the way we really need to be taken care of. UM.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes we attract people and it's it's very toxic, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's just if you don't know, then you can

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Speaker 1: never express to another person what it is that makes

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Speaker 1: you feel cared for and nurtured. And loved and you know, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, appreciated And so a lot of my homework

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Speaker 1: is around acticing self care. What does that look like? UM?

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Speaker 1: What did you do? How can we practice being gentler

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Speaker 1: with ourselves? So some of it are like you know,

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Speaker 1: making time for journaling, UM, exercise, eating while massages. You know,

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Speaker 1: some of it is like very personal and big on.

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Speaker 1: You know, you've got to create your own personal self

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Speaker 1: care plan. So that could be getting up and you know,

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Speaker 1: with enough time that you're not rushing, or it could

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Speaker 1: be an afternoon coffee, or it could be making time

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Speaker 1: to read a couple of times a week because you

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Speaker 1: really like books. Whatever it is that sort of feeds

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00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,199
Speaker 1: your own individual needs. UM, but beginning to understand what

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Speaker 1: that is, identify it, and practice it on a regular basis.

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Speaker 1: I really like that, Esther. I think that's the first

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Speaker 1: time I've heard, um, anybody put self care in terms

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Speaker 1: of like what that looks like for dating, UM and

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Speaker 1: thinking about you know, if you are not taking good

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Speaker 1: care of yourself, then how can you teach someone and

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Speaker 1: expect other people to do that same thing? Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: you know, it's such a we have to always say,

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Speaker 1: like you need to be the partner that you want

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Speaker 1: to have and you know, not entirely, but right, we've

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Speaker 1: got to establish that kind of foundation. Um. I see

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Speaker 1: it a lot with my couples, and so over the

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Speaker 1: years I've learned to kind of like, I gotta backtrack it, Like,

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Speaker 1: let's start doing that while we're dating, so that you know,

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Speaker 1: you can then carry that forward when you do find

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Speaker 1: somebody that you want to be in a committed relationship with. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: what are some tips for our listeners who may be

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Speaker 1: struggling with some challenges that may be similar to Molly's,

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Speaker 1: Like what kinds of tips are things could you offer? Um, well, obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know professional bias, So my first tip would be

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Speaker 1: just try therapy. Um, you know, I mean I always

399
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 1: sort of you know, I'm half kidding but not really.

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Speaker 1: Part of the challenge is what she's trying to establish

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00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: an authentic connection with another person, and there is a

402
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 1: skill set that that you need to have in order

403
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 1: to do that, and therapy basically is a place for

404
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 1: you to practice that with somebody who is really good

405
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 1: at it. Like your therapist isn't figuring out how to

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00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,879
Speaker 1: have authentic, genuine connection with you. They know how to

407
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 1: do that. I mean hopefully that's part of the training

408
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 1: is that they understand how to set healthy boundaries. They

409
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: understand how to be, you know, a tune to your needs.

410
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Speaker 1: So it's a really safe place for you to practice.

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Speaker 1: How do you do those things? Where are the places

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Speaker 1: where you don't do that really well? And so that's

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Speaker 1: definitely one of them. I think seeking out, you know,

414
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Speaker 1: practicing accepting a little bit of constructive criticism, and this

415
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: is one of those like you need to be very

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Speaker 1: thoughtful and careful you allow to sort of be this

417
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Speaker 1: person in your life, but really looking at the people

418
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Speaker 1: that are around you that care about you, and asking

419
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 1: those people that you trust, who you really genuinely believe

420
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 1: always have your best interests in mind, know you really

421
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Speaker 1: well and that if you gave them permission, would be

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Speaker 1: really honest with you, because I think, you know, as

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Speaker 1: difficult as it was, I think that's part of what

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00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 1: she needs to have for with each other is this

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Speaker 1: is a person who knows you well enough and accepts

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Speaker 1: you unconditionally that you can also begin you know, intimacy

427
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: and emotional intimacy isn't just for romantic relationships. It's also

428
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: in friendship and in a family, and so figuring out

429
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 1: do you have that anywhere in life? And if you do,

430
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 1: then kind of really cultivating that connection a little bit

431
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: UM more intentionally can also be really helpful. And and

432
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: then self care that would be my other is you

433
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: know the more because the real secret there is that

434
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: the more you practice figuring out how do I take

435
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: care of myself, how do I show myself more love

436
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: and consideration and um and patience and compassion, the easier

437
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,360
Speaker 1: it is for you to ask for help in other places.

438
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 1: A lot of the block is often it's negative self talk.

439
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 1: It's what will people think of me? It's judgment that

440
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: gets between UM many women similar to Molly and actually

441
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 1: engaging in in therapy or even just in being able

442
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: to really allow themselves to be fully present in a

443
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 1: romantic relationship. Yeah. When you brought up the whole idea

444
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 1: of UM, you know, her being able to tolerate constructive

445
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 1: criticism from other people in her life. UM, I also

446
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,719
Speaker 1: think that she would be like the ideal candidate for

447
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: a process group because I think that if she couldn't

448
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: tolerate getting the constructive criticism from the people in her life,

449
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: I think it would um go well for her to

450
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 1: be able to kind of be in a group of

451
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: strangers who she develops relationships with, for her to be

452
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: able to get the feedback about how she comes across

453
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: the people, because I think that that also is a

454
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: part of her issue, is that she doesn't really know,

455
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: like the perception that she gives off to other people. Yes,

456
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I think a group is always just amazing.

457
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: I think, um for lots of things, but I think

458
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: it would be I think you're right, really a perfect

459
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: opportunity and would be much easier to tolerate because there

460
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: could she could also maintain some separation, right, get to

461
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: be I'm going to start learning to be much more

462
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: vulnerable and can hear some of this stuff, and then

463
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: I can go back to my real life and practice

464
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: it and see how it works, rather than feeling the

465
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: pressure to integrate those two things exactly. So, do you

466
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: have any resources to go along with those wonderful tips

467
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: that you just gave us, Any books or blogs or websites, um,

468
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 1: Things that you think that our listeners would benefit related

469
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: to these issues. Yeah, definitely. Um So, I mean in

470
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: terms of looking at things like working on the self,

471
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: compassion and the Vulnerability. I'm a big fan, um as

472
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 1: maybe of a therapist. Are you know Bernie Brown's work, Um,

473
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,719
Speaker 1: I actually really like some of her One of her

474
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: earlier books, UM, The Gifts of Imperfection, which I think

475
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 1: is an easy read and sort of gives very concrete steps,

476
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: like try practicing that's try practicing that. Another book that

477
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 1: I really like is called Self Compassion by Kristin Neff. Again,

478
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: I think it offers both sort of an intellectual understanding

479
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: and then some tangible practical things that you can do

480
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 1: trying to think in terms of there's a ton of

481
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: just great websites and blogs, and none of which I'm

482
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: going to be able to like name off the top

483
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: of my head, but you know, I'm a big fan

484
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: for like, you know, google my clients stuff all the time,

485
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 1: Like I just found here's a great article five ways

486
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: to be gentle with yourself and have rough day. Or

487
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: I will send people like playlists like here's a playlist

488
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: when you're feeling particularly raw or vulnerable, or you know,

489
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: to help you start to think about what it would

490
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: look like. One of the other which is not necessarily

491
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: a tangible resource, but one of the things I also

492
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: ask a lot of my clients who are where we're

493
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 1: working around dating issues is you know, to make a

494
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: list and get a notebook and kind of make a

495
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: list of the qualities they want that they think they're

496
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: looking for in a partner, what kind of dates would

497
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: you go on with that partner, and then starting to

498
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 1: use that as kind of a map for like, well,

499
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: what are you doing while you're single? So if you

500
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: want to date somebody who's going to take you to wineries,

501
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: then I want you to go take yourself to a winery.

502
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: If you want to date somebody who is really into

503
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 1: art and you can discuss art with, then I want

504
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: you to like join a meetup group and go to

505
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: a gallery and then actually talk to people about the artwork.

506
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: But that's just that's sort of a homework thing that

507
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 1: I like to offer full as well, like we need

508
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: to practice sort of doing the things that we think

509
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: we want in a relationship. That sounds like a great activity,

510
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: so as I also want you to talk to us

511
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: more about your practice, um and the things that you're

512
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: doing in the community, because you're doing some really awesome

513
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: things related to you know you mentioned before, like the

514
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 1: stigma related to mental health and how that often keeps

515
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: black women from seeking therapy. UM. So can you tell

516
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: us more about your practice and some of the things

517
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: you're doing, as well as where we can find you

518
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: on social media. My practice is based in the Washington,

519
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: D C. Area Group Therapy Associates and you know, really,

520
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: I would say sort of the underlying you know, vision,

521
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: as I started with twofold one, is about reducing the

522
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: stigma around mental health and therapy UM. And then sort

523
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: of as a tangent to that is making that more accessible.

524
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: So I think beginning to think about that there are

525
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: other ways free to engage and connect with therapists. Ideally,

526
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: eventually you get into the office and you're doing some sessions,

527
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: but you know, going to workshops. You know, I love

528
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: that you brought up, you know, doing process groups. Groups

529
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: are one of my favorite things to do. I think

530
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: that's a really cool thing to do. So some of

531
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: the stuff that we do does include UM. In fact,

532
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: this upcoming week, I have a couple of dinner so

533
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: it's like dinner and wine pairing and myself and another

534
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: one of the therapist for my practice for couples, and

535
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about intimacy and building and maintaining

536
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: emotional connection, and so I do. I have a whole

537
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: division where we sort of take a lot of therapeutic

538
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: topics out of the office and begin to introduce them

539
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: as a way for people to think about them. And

540
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: then if you decide you want to go deeper, obviously,

541
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: then you can kind of call the office and work

542
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: with somebody who want on one. So that's um, some

543
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: of what I'm doing. I guess the one sort of

544
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: passion project I've got going on right now is called

545
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: therapy is not a dirty word. It is a Q

546
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: and a happy hour. So, um, just going to different cities,

547
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: ringing local therapists out of their offices, getting everybody you

548
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: know now on therapists come out and we just sort

549
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: of hang out and have like really great conversation. It's

550
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: not a traditional panel where we're sort of lecturing. It

551
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: really is, you know, people just kind of sitting around

552
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,959
Speaker 1: asking questions everything from some of the stuff you and

553
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: I talked about, you know, book recommendations to you know,

554
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: why become a therapist, or you know, talking about you know,

555
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: how can somebody work on their relationship or something like that.

556
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: So that's one of that's kind of my passion project

557
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: at the moment um is you know, showing up with

558
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: lots of different cities and doing those happy hours. Very cool,

559
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: very cool. Like I said, I think you have some

560
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: very cool things going on, So I definitely want people

561
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: to pay attention to if any of those events will

562
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: be in a city close to you and definitely trying

563
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,479
Speaker 1: to go out and it's in those yes, definitely. UM

564
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. As to

565
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: b M f T, my practice is also on those places.

566
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: I always sort of saying like the easiest thing to

567
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: do is if you go to esther Boykatt dot com,

568
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: then whichever sort of little corner of my work world

569
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: that you're interested in, you'll find links for it there.

570
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: So whether it's the conversations off the couch events which

571
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: are UM primarily based in the DC area, therapy is

572
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: not a dirty word, which as I said, it is

573
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: kind of everywhere. Um, you were in London not too

574
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: long ago. We've got a couple events in d C

575
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: coming up UM and through this UM in July will

576
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,719
Speaker 1: be in l A well in Atlanta soon, so like

577
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: we're coming, We're coming, We're coming. It's lots of different

578
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: places yes, very cool. And all of this information will

579
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: be included in the show notes so you don't have

580
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: to worry about trying to figure all this out and

581
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: I'll have handy links for everybody. Well. Esther, thank you

582
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: so much for spending some time and sharing all these

583
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: amazing resources and great conversation with us. I really appreciate it.

584
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. This has been so fun. Um.

585
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: I just I love the conversation. I love being able

586
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: to connect with out a therapist and and have these

587
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: kind of conversations, you know, just a little out of

588
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: the box thinking, because I think it's just such a

589
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: great way for us to connect with connect what we

590
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: do with like everyday life. So thank you again so much.

591
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: You're very welcome. So as you can see, Esther dropped

592
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: tons of gems that I think could be very helpful

593
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: for you to apply in some of the situations in

594
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: your lives. To find all of the resources and things

595
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: that she mentioned in the episode, make sure to check

596
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: out the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot

597
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,719
Speaker 1: com slash Session twelve, and please make sure to let

598
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: us know what you think of the episode. Use the

599
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: hashtag tb G in session and you can find us

600
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: all over social media at Therapy for Black Girls, and

601
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: Instagram and Facebook We're at Therapy for Black Girls, and

602
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: on Twitter, We're at Therapy for the Number four be Girls.

603
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: And make sure to share this with one of your

604
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: special girlfriends so that you guys can chat about it

605
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: before we get called up with the next season in July.

606
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to continuing this conversation with you all

607
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: real soon. Take good care,