1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,679 Speaker 1: It's time to get inside the Giants huts. 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 2: Giants give me some job. 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 3: Part of the Giants Podcast Network's Welcome to another edition 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 3: of the Giants Little Podcast, brought to you by Citizens, 5 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 3: the official bank of the Giants. My name is John Schmelt. 6 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 3: Today our special guest, longtime NFL executive Michael Lombardi. He 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 3: started under Bill Walsh. He worked for the Browns for 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 3: a long time, the Raiders, for the long time Eagles, Broncos, 9 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 3: you volunteered for them, Patriots, three times Super Bowl champion. 10 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 3: And he has a brand new book, Football Done Right, 11 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 3: setting the record straight on the coaches, players in history 12 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 3: of the NFL. Go find it wherever you buy your books. 13 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 3: It's an excellent reed. I've gotten through most of it. Michael, 14 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 3: and I want to start here because I think you 15 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 3: start the book in the right way, and I think 16 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 3: it's interesting you talk about the history of the game, 17 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 3: and I think you throw out some names that this 18 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 3: game was built on. 19 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: You call them the White Oaks, right if I'm not. 20 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 3: Mistaken, And just some names out throughout there, Cardinal Blake 21 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 3: Clark Shaughnessy with the T formation, Paul Brown are really 22 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 3: started making offense organized Sid Gilman, who got the ball 23 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 3: down the field for the first time. Let's just start 24 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 3: there and talk about some of these names that maybe 25 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 3: casual fans don't know, but without them, we wouldn't have 26 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 3: the NFL the way it is today. 27 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 2: Yah know, everybody, you know, we talked coaching trees, but 28 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: I don't think people really understand what is the coaching tree. 29 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 2: And what I try to do is simplify it to 30 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 2: where the white oak has the longest routes of any tree, 31 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 2: and it also represents sturdiness and the ability to withstand. 32 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 2: And I think these five gentlemen really made the game. 33 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 2: You know, Walsh and Brown are close, but Bill took 34 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 2: something from Paul and expanded it to a whole other element. 35 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 2: But Earl Blake with the lonely end, you know, being 36 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 2: able to spread the formation out, which was unheard of 37 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 2: Clark Shaughnessy, as you mentioned the t formation. Sid Gilman, 38 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: who worked for Earl Boake two, you know, along with 39 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: Vincelain already they all understood how to throw the football. 40 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 2: You know, when Sid Gilman went to Ohio State. When 41 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: he played at Ohio State he then coached. There was 42 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 2: a coach there by the name of Francis Schmidt, who 43 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 2: wanted to throw the ball all the time at Ohio State. 44 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: They ran him out of town naturally, but he was 45 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: really the impetus behind sid Gilman falling in love with 46 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 2: the forward pass. So there's a reason why Brian Daball, 47 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: the coach of the Giants, comes from a tree. You know, 48 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: he's was hired by Belichick. Well what's Belichick's tree? You know, 49 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: he goes back to Rick Forzano, and he goes back 50 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 2: to a lot of the Paul Brown elements are in 51 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: his life, even though he never worked for Paul Brown. 52 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 2: But you have these links to people that you've worked 53 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: for that enhance yourself and they make you who you 54 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 2: are and they kind of send you to the Basically 55 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: they start your foundation. And that's what I wanted to 56 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 2: try to start the book with, was a foundation of 57 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: where this all comes from. 58 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and as I mentioned with with your long resume, 59 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 3: you worked with and along two of the greatest coaches 60 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 3: of all time, Bill Walsh. Then in Cleveland you were 61 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 3: there with Bill Belichick. Correct, So talk about and you 62 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 3: have a chapter in this book with the top ten 63 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 3: greatest coaches of all times. Not surprisingly, both those guys 64 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 3: are featured prominently in that list. 65 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: What makes your list? 66 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 3: Do you think a little bit different based on your 67 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 3: experience in the league, and what do you makes a 68 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 3: great NFL coach? 69 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: Well, I think a great NFL coach and I you know, 70 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 2: I think Parcels probably. I debated a long time. I 71 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: think he is one of the top ten. I didn't 72 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 2: put him in there partly because of some of the 73 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: I had to pay respect to the older guys. But 74 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: I think what makes a great NFL head coach is 75 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: the ability to focus and understand what the problems are 76 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 2: and solve problems, and manage the game in three areas offense, defense, 77 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: and the kicking game, and basically understand what it takes 78 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: to win the game on that given day. It's a 79 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 2: dying breed in our industry right now. We don't really 80 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: have very many people that can do that. You know, 81 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 2: we don't have many people trained to do that. We 82 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: have play callers, but we don't have play We don't 83 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: have people that can walk into the running back room 84 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 2: and talk about what we need to do at running 85 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 2: back and then go over to the defensive line room 86 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 2: and talk about that. That's a dying breed in our industry. 87 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 2: So for me, that's what makes it and how to 88 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 2: play the game. What do we have to do today 89 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: to win the game? I think Brian did a really 90 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: good job last year for the Giants of really asking 91 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: that question and answering it every week. And I think 92 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 2: that's what makes teams, that's what separates it. Right, because 93 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: football in the thirties and and today is a game 94 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: of leadership. It's still about leadership. How do you get 95 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: the players to maximize their talent? I think that's one 96 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: element we're. 97 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: Missing, you know, Michael, And it's funny. I think you 98 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: make an interesting point. 99 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: Why do you think that is a dying breed of 100 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 3: coach that can do all those different things? And I 101 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 3: do think there are some coaches that probably still kind 102 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 3: of like I look at a guy like Brian Dable, right, 103 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 3: you mentioned play caller. He gave up those play caller duties, 104 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 3: and you look at his assistant coach pass He started 105 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 3: on defense, He's done tight ends, He's done a bunch 106 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 3: of different positions. Why do you think we don't necessarily 107 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 3: have those coaches that are as well rounded it can 108 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 3: do a little bit of everything and not just focus 109 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 3: on the play calling when they get to that head 110 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 3: coaching position. 111 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,799 Speaker 2: But we don't have a lot of Bill Belichick's Belichick 112 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: train Brian. And why did Belichick train Brian Because he 113 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 2: trained them like you should train all great coaches on 114 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 2: both sides of the ball. And so he started, like 115 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: my son's the offensive coordinator the Oakland Raiders. He started 116 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: New England as a personnel assistant, so he known personnel. 117 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 2: Then he became a coaching assistant, then he became an 118 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: assistant receiver coach, and then he worked his way up. 119 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 2: That's we in Cleveland. Before Bill went to New England, 120 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: we tried to put together a program of how to 121 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: develop coaches? How do you develop coaches? And one of 122 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 2: the ways we thought about developing coaches was if we 123 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: teach them personnel first, they'll see players. We can always 124 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 2: teach it plays, but the person that sees players and 125 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: plays together has an advantage. And so that's kind of 126 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 2: how we trained it. And that's what we did. And 127 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 2: that all comes from Belichick, that comes from Walsh. That's 128 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 2: something I've learned in my life is that's what they believe. 129 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 2: They believed in developing coaches. And I think this book 130 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: is about how do you develop as a coach, How 131 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: are you going to develop? It's not about play callers. 132 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 2: It's about how do you develop your philosophy of who 133 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 2: you want to be based on those white Oaks. 134 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 3: And you were with New England as an assistance the 135 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 3: coaching staff from twenty fourteen to twenty fifteen. Brian Dable 136 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 3: was there for that. So before we jump to another 137 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 3: part of your book, Michael, just want to get your 138 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 3: take on what it was like working with Brian Dabel 139 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 3: and your thoughts on him as a coach and the 140 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 3: job he did for the Giants last year. 141 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 2: Well, I thought I did an incredible job because I 142 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 2: think he took over a team that didn't have great 143 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 2: cap situation and he got the most out of the players. 144 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: He got the quarterback to play at a high level, 145 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: he got the running back to play at a high level. 146 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: They kind of managed their way through defensively. I mean, 147 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: Brian was a meticulous note taker. You know he went 148 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: to every meeting with Belichick with the computer out and 149 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 2: his ability to take notes. He was taking everything in. 150 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: Worked for Nick Saban, you know, he's worked for Belichick, 151 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 2: He's been with Mangini. He said a lot of different backgrounds, 152 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: and so he comes from a schmortersboard of lessons, But 153 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, he was rooted in 154 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: this Patriot way, if you will, which I think often 155 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: gets tossed around, but you understand it of how to 156 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: really coach the team to win the game on that 157 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,679 Speaker 2: game on that day. And when you look at their season, 158 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: you know they were a team that had to get 159 00:07:58,040 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: the game in the fourth quarter and find a way 160 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 2: when game in the fourth quarter. And that's what they 161 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: did from the opening game against Tennessee to the last 162 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 2: game when they couldn't get it into the fourth quarter 163 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 2: against the Eagles. 164 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 3: Now, the final chapter in your book is your top 165 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: one hundred players. Now we've seen a million of these 166 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 3: top one hundred players, let's thrown around. NFL Network has on, 167 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 3: ESPN has one. But you're coming at it from a 168 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 3: different perspective as someone that worked in personnel and coaching 169 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: in the league. So tell me what's different about your list, 170 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 3: What were your priorities and what for you kind of 171 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 3: sets apart the guys near the top of your list. 172 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: Well, I mean I wanted to pay respects to some 173 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 2: of the older players to get rid of this rhetoric 174 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 2: John that they couldn't play today. Dick Buckets could play today. 175 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 2: I'm going to break the news to he could play today, 176 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 2: he would be really good, you know. And you know, 177 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 2: and so what I try to do is is take 178 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: the players of the past and try to teach the 179 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 2: people what they would look like today if they were 180 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: playing with modern players. So I wanted to do that, 181 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,719 Speaker 2: and I wanted to be respectful to players from all 182 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 2: different errors, and I and also want to be respectful 183 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: to players that weren't that I think had been must 184 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 2: not fairly judged by the Hall of Fame Committee. Sterling 185 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 2: Sharp being an example. Ron Kramer, the tight end of 186 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 2: the Packers had, you know from men. I mean, the 187 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 2: Packers sweep doesn't exist without Ron Kramer blocking the edge. 188 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: I mean, here's a guy who's won eleven letters at 189 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 2: the University of Michigan, played basketball, was you know, with 190 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 2: the Harlem Globe Trotters running to play nobody nobody? You know, 191 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 2: this guy only got traded to Detroit because he was 192 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 2: going through a divorce when football was in such the 193 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 2: embasy stage. Is that, you know, you had to have 194 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 2: you had a different jobs in the winter time to 195 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 2: make a living, so he wanted to go back and 196 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 2: try to save his marriage. But what I try to 197 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 2: do is try to link these things together and educate 198 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: the fan that you know today isn't always just the 199 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 2: best players. There were great players before. Ato Graham, you know, 200 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: won eleven ten titles, and so he deserves to be 201 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 2: in the conversation. You know, just because Pat Mahomes is 202 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 2: great doesn't mean he was better. A GM was really 203 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 2: good too. 204 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 4: You're ready for a change. Pay Day comes early with citizens, 205 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 4: So go to that retreat. Knew you move to the country. 206 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 4: Now you're raising goats and launching a lifestyle brand. Are 207 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 4: you ready for all that life brings? 208 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 2: Yeah? 209 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 3: And people don't realize if you put these great athletes 210 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 3: of yesteryear in today's modern systems and offenses, for one, 211 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 3: and even just in the training programs, right like these 212 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 3: guys back in the sixties, you know this, Michael, they're 213 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 3: working day jobs like they're. 214 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: Not playing football all year round. It's just a completely 215 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: different world. 216 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 3: So it's really hard to make that cross comparison, especially 217 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 3: when you just look at you know, what they look like, 218 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 3: and then the stats, because this is a it's a 219 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 3: completely different world than the modern. 220 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 2: Era it is, and they took a beating. I mean, 221 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 2: Johnny and IIIs barely threw the ball without getting the 222 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: crap beat out of them, you know. And so people say, 223 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: well United and I said this, And one of the 224 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 2: reasons I wrote the book John is because I was 225 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 2: sitting there with Steve Sable and Ernie a Corsium. We 226 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 2: were talking about former players and I stupidly said I 227 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 2: don't think Uniteds could play and sav oh, and of 228 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 2: course he looked at me like I was an idiot, 229 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 2: and they were right, and they were right. I was 230 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 2: an idiot, like they can play. He was, you know, 231 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 2: he was Peyton Manning before Peyton Manning, controlling everything at 232 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: the line, being able to distribute the football, whether it 233 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 2: was to John mackew or Raymond you know, Raymond Barry, 234 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 2: the wide receiver. I mean, they just had this unbelievable 235 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 2: He called the plays. I mean, he was calling plays too, 236 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: which was difficult. So that's what I wanted to call. 237 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 2: That's what I hope the people that read this book, 238 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 2: that buy this book, they have a better sense of 239 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 2: the history of the NFL. 240 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 3: And you will find a prominent giant at the top 241 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 3: of that list. Michael didn't quite get to number one, 242 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 3: but lt does make an appearance very high on your list. 243 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 2: I don't you know. I find it so hard to 244 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 2: believe that people actually have the guts that they don't 245 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 2: really watch Lawrence Taylor. If you watch Lawrence Taylor, he's 246 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 2: once in a lifetime, just like Ronnie Lott was once 247 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,359 Speaker 2: in a lifetime. Reggie Waits once. These guys don't exist. 248 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 2: I mean, I think Micah Parsons is great, don't get 249 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 2: me wrong, but Lawrence Taylor was on a different level. 250 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 2: I mean, just think about this. The gunner position in 251 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: the NFL changed because of Lawrence Taylor, and I write 252 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 2: about it in the book. Belichick put Lawrence Taylor out 253 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 2: as the gunner on the punt team, right, That's how 254 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 2: good he was. And of course naturally the goddamn putt 255 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: returners were scared to death when him come storm it down? 256 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 2: What you be? 257 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, so Washington and. 258 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: Then Washington put Dexter Manley out there to combat it, 259 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: you know, and like Parcells said to Belichick, see what 260 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: you started, you know, like this is what happens, and 261 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 2: so you know, he was just he changed the game. 262 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 2: I mean changed the blocking scheme. I mean, Walsh had 263 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 2: to come up with what we call the dual reblock 264 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 2: so because he wanted to get somebody on and I 265 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 2: think people that do that are way different than people 266 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 2: that just play really good. Yeah. 267 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 3: I mean, now edge rusher is considered a position in 268 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 3: the league. That position did not exist until Lawrence Taylor 269 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 3: made that he positioned pretty much in the eighties, which 270 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 3: which is really one of the more valuable positions now 271 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 3: in the entire league. 272 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 2: I mean, they had had Tailor and he had Banks. 273 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 2: Carl Banks's position doesn't exist today. The end of the 274 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 2: line linebacker who plays over the tight end, that that 275 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: doesn't even exist anymore. That's it. The sam linebacker position 276 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 2: in football is gone. 277 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that now to you just play a 278 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: safety over there, nickel right, and you basically have those 279 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: guys stay at the tight end. 280 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 2: Well mostly, Well, the tight ends can't block anybody. Well, shoot, 281 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: people call Kelsey a tight end. He's not a tight end. 282 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: Nobody counts ke He's a great receiver. Darren Waller's not 283 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: really a tight end. He's a great receiver. They're a 284 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 2: great receiver. And this is what we've come to. 285 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very different. 286 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 3: And then the part of your book that I really enjoyed, 287 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 3: you have a team building chapter, but then you also 288 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 3: have chapters on trades in the draft, right, which is 289 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 3: really your two main avenues along with free agency to 290 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 3: building a team. So put your GM hats on, which 291 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 3: I think it's always only you have to put it on. 292 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 3: How do you think the best way now is to 293 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 3: build out a winner in the National Football League? 294 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 2: Well, I think I still think it's through both offensive 295 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 2: and defensive lines. I think the Eagles have proven that. 296 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 2: I think if you're good in the offensive line and 297 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 2: defensive line, obviously you have to have a really good quarterback. 298 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 2: But if you're not good up front, you're not going 299 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 2: to win because you're going to meet somebody who's going 300 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 2: to be able to block to handle yet, and I 301 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: think that's still football is an ageless game. And you know, 302 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 2: when you played in the backyard and you counted the 303 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 2: three Mississippi, nobody got open. But if you counted the 304 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 2: five Mississippi, guys can get open. That's pro football too. 305 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: If we can block you, we're going to get open. 306 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 2: If we can't block you, I don't give a crap 307 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 2: who we are, We're not going to get open. So 308 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 2: I still think the way to build a team is 309 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 2: through strength down the middle. And you also have to 310 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 2: recognize where you play. You know, you have to recognize 311 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 2: you play in the Northeast. You've got to be able 312 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 2: to win the November December, January Weber Weather. I mean, look, 313 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 2: they play the Ice Bowl on the last day of 314 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 2: December in sixty seven. That was the championship game in 315 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 2: the end of December minus thirteen degrees. That you know, 316 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: we're we're week fourth, We're week fifteen that time. Now, 317 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 2: you know. So if you don't have a team that 318 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 2: can handle the elements and is mentally tough and you 319 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 2: play in that conditions, it's hard. 320 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 3: John Total Podcast is brought to you by Citizens, the 321 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 3: official bank of the Giants, from game to to everyday. 322 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 3: Citizens made ready for Giant fans with insights, guidance and solutions. 323 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 3: Learn more at citizensbank dot com. Michael in the vein 324 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 3: of speaking about team building, what do you think of 325 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 3: the job Joe Shane has done here? It's only his 326 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 3: second season now, He's had two offseasons to try to 327 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 3: build this thing back from what was a fairly dark 328 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 3: period here. Your thoughts on the only returns. 329 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 2: Well, I think one thing, he sits in a chair 330 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 2: that has great history in it, in George Young. And 331 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 2: what George Young did when he came to the Giants 332 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 2: was installed a size speed, the grading system which I 333 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 2: talk about, and the philosophy of building through the draft. 334 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 2: I mean, look, the Giants one have won two Super 335 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 2: Bowls in recent years, beating New England, and it's because 336 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: of their defensive front, their ability to run block, their 337 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 2: ability to run with their offensive line and their defensive lines. 338 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: And I think Joe, you know, drafts Neil drafts Thibodeau 339 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 2: in his first draft. You know, he drafts Schmid, the 340 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 2: offensive center. I think he understands that he's got to 341 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 2: put the value where it really matters the most, which 342 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 2: is up front. You know, and we certainly need corners, 343 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: and you know, we drafted a corner in the first round. 344 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 2: But I think he gets that you have to build 345 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: through the lines because you don't have to look too 346 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 2: far down the turnpike to see they're really good, because 347 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: they're really good in both lines. And they've beaten you 348 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 2: badly in two games. Oh no, you're fine, they've beaten 349 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 2: you badly in two games because they control both lots. 350 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think to a lesser extent in Dallas too, Right, 351 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 3: they have that great pass rush up there. They have 352 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 3: a pretty good offensive line as well. So one hundred 353 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,719 Speaker 3: percent with you. So let's start to the defense then, 354 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 3: because I do think that's kind of where they're trying 355 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 3: to build. He had those two first round picks his 356 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 3: first year here drafts Evan Neil and Keevon Thibodaux, trying 357 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 3: to get better up front. So now you're looking at 358 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 3: your defensive front. You have Dexter Lawrence, who has turned 359 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 3: into one of the best nose tackles in football. He 360 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 3: actually he gets really good pass rush from there too. 361 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 3: Leonard Williams is approven pro. Then you have those two 362 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 3: young guys outside in Thibodau and o Jawari. What do 363 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 3: you think your potential is of that kind of four 364 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 3: man front in you know which you're in nickel most 365 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 3: of the time anyway, Right to becoming a consistent force 366 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 3: on pass rush to give your opponents the same type 367 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 3: of trouble that that Philly and Dallas have been given 368 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 3: him over the last couple of years. 369 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 2: Well, the key to all this is you got to 370 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: play from in front, because if you don't play from 371 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 2: in front, it's hard to have a pass rush. Yep, 372 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 2: Eagles scored two hundred and seven points in the second 373 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 2: quarter last year. They played from in front every almost 374 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 2: every single game. They never played from behind. If you're 375 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 2: Don Martindale and you're calling defenses and you're down ten 376 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 2: points at halftime, you can't run zero blitz and feel like, Okay, 377 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 2: if I give this up and the game's over, So 378 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: you have to be careful. I think that's the key. 379 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: Everything's complementary in football. Everything, every every movement creates another movement. 380 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 2: So look, they're gonna have to play. They got to 381 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 2: play from in front. But the Giants have to play 382 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 2: with their page too, right. They're They're never going to 383 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: be a track meet team. That's not gonna work for them. 384 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 2: But their way they paced the game last year did 385 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 2: so I think, to me, those guys got a rush 386 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: they need, you know, I think I still think the 387 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: Giants are one more draft away where they close the 388 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 2: gap on that depth of their team to really help 389 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: them compete at the next level. And I think that's 390 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: really what will happen, and I think they'll get there. 391 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I don't think anyone thought this was just 392 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 3: a one or two year project when the new regime 393 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 3: came in. 394 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: Absolutely. You mentioned it before. 395 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,719 Speaker 3: Cornerback right the Giants right now, And I'm talking as 396 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 3: though three cornerbacks start because most teams have three corners 397 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 3: out there at the same time. Two of those three guys, 398 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 3: and they'll probably be your outside corners, are gonna be 399 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 3: two rookies, Deanty Banks and Trey Hawkins. 400 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: Michael. 401 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 3: Just talk about that from a scouting perspective. When you're 402 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 3: looking an opponent, you see two rookie corners out there, 403 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 3: no matter how well they might have, you know, graded 404 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 3: out in the draft and what you think of them. 405 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 3: How are opponents going to see that? And how are 406 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 3: opponents gonna go about trying to attack that? Given the 407 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 3: inexperience the Giants might have there outside early in the season. 408 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 2: Well, they're gonna they're gonna have to figure out how 409 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 2: to block their flitz because they know Martin Dale's gonna 410 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: come with a lot of pressure, right so, and he's 411 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 2: not he's not afraid to leave his corners on an island. 412 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: Now we're gonna play press man, and they're gonna do 413 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: it so all day. You know, I think the number 414 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 2: the number one thing if you're playing the Giants is 415 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,239 Speaker 2: we got to protect how we protect, and we got 416 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 2: to understand how he brings pressure, how he disguises pressure, 417 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 2: and then go from there. Look the forty nine ers 418 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 2: and when they drafted Ronnie Lott in the first round, 419 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 2: they started a lot in at corner, and they started 420 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 2: Carlton Williamson at strong safety, and they started Eric right 421 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 2: at the other corner. Three rookies, and now the game 422 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 2: was different, but they were able to. They played together. 423 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: They won a super Bowl in eighty one, so you 424 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 2: know they'll be okay. I mean, these kids that come 425 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 2: from college, you know, remember what I write about in 426 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: the book is is the game of college. Parcells told 427 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 2: me this years ago. We can only take from college 428 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 2: what they give us, and they give us now. They 429 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 2: give us guys that play pressman. They give us guys 430 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 2: that play that see forty passes a week in practice. 431 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 2: We see that whereas back when I started, people were 432 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 2: still running the wishbone, people were still running the veer. 433 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 2: He didn't you know, the corners didn't have as much practice. 434 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: There wasn't as much passing. Going on. So these guys 435 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 2: are ready to play. I mean Banks is ready to play. 436 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: You know, Walsh used to say all the time, it 437 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 2: doesn't matter where you get drafted, it matters how you play. 438 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 2: Ye go play, Okay, if they get pressure. 439 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: Giants fans level winner. 440 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 3: It's why they love Citizens named the twenty twenty two 441 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 3: best bank in the US by the Banker as the 442 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 3: official bank of the Giants and sponsor of the Giants Huddle. 443 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 3: Citizens is made ready for fans of Big Blue. Learn 444 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 3: more at citizensbank dot com. We're joined by Michael Lombardi, 445 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 3: author of Football Done Right. Go find it wherever you 446 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 3: get your books. Michael, let's jump to the Giants on 447 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 3: offense here. They had to make a big decision on 448 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 3: Daniel Jones last offseason. They liked what they saw on 449 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 3: the year one of Brian Dable. They give him a 450 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 3: four year contract. Your thoughts on what the next step 451 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 3: for you is that he has to make this year 452 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 3: to kind of vault himself further up those quarterback tiers 453 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 3: where he can maybe start taking over games through the 454 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 3: air and leading the team to victory. 455 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,719 Speaker 2: You know, I think he has to play within himself. 456 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: I think what we learned about Daniel Jones last year 457 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 2: was when he's in a six back offense, second leading 458 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 2: rusher on the team. When he's big in the run game, 459 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 2: he's a better player. I don't think Daniel Jones is 460 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 2: gonna make people forget that he's the next Patrick Mahomes. 461 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 2: He doesn't have to. He's got to play within himself. 462 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 2: And I really believe when he's running or a threat 463 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 2: of the run, people don't realize this. Jalen Hurts ran 464 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: last year for a less average than he did the 465 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 2: year before. He had slightly more carries, but less average. 466 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: It's not you want him to run. It's the threat 467 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 2: of the run that helps set his passing game up. 468 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 2: And I think what I saw what Daniel Jones was 469 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 2: finally they found an offense that fits his skill set. 470 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 2: He's not a West Coast quarterback. He's not a one, two, three, four, five, 471 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 2: read it out. He's He's a six back offense quarterback 472 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 2: that can go. Now, when you're doing this, you got 473 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 2: to play from it. You got to. You know, you 474 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 2: don't want to play from behind. You don't want to 475 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 2: get down because then they're going to make mistakes. But 476 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,719 Speaker 2: every quarterback in the league. I'm not saying this in 477 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 2: any disparaging way about Jones. Every quarterback in the league, 478 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 2: with the exception of Mahomes and perhaps even has to 479 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 2: be put in the right system that fits his skill set. 480 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 2: Jalen Hurts proved back to us all. Jalen Hurts, you know, 481 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 2: left Alabama because he couldn't throw it. They wouldn't. He 482 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 2: didn't really fit their passing game. Went to Oklahoma the Eagles, 483 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 2: you know, they lose to Tampa, get beat badly. They 484 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: come back with the six pack offense, and now all 485 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 2: of a sudden, this works for him. And I think 486 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: it's the same thing with Jones. I think they need 487 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 2: to build on what they did last year. I think 488 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: the rhetoric about well now we're going to open it up, 489 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: I think that's down the wrong road. I think, do 490 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 2: what you do and make him better at what he's 491 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 2: been good at doing. Don't try to change something else. 492 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 4: You loved her, You're good at it. So you started 493 00:23:58,960 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 4: turf biz. 494 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 2: This grows, your. 495 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 4: Savings grow, become the most celebrated name in Durk. Are 496 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 4: you ready for all that life rings? 497 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: Now? 498 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 3: Fans that maybe that don't know the terminology, Michael what 499 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 3: do you mean by six back offense. 500 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: Well, let's see some of my book's a history book, right, 501 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 2: So when the single wing was in play, you know, 502 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 2: there used to be two quarterbacks, you know, because there 503 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 2: were no throwing. It was all deception. So the main 504 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 2: runner was what we called the quarterback. And it wasn't 505 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 2: until Clark Shaughnessy put the T formation that the quarterback 506 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 2: actually had a real position. And so once the quarterbacks 507 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 2: involved in the running game, now you have six people 508 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 2: that could potentially carry the football. You have the two receivers, 509 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 2: the two tight ends, and the one running back. Right, 510 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: so that's five, and now the quarterback becomes the sixth element. 511 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 2: That's why I call it the six back offense because 512 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 2: he's involved in the run game. He's the second leading 513 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 2: rusher on the team last year. And it wasn't because 514 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 2: he dropped back and oh, no, one's open, I'm going 515 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 2: to take off and run. He ran power, he ran sweep, 516 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 2: he ran lead, He ran run plays that come from 517 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: essentially the single way, and that helped him. Why because 518 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 2: it gave him a play action pass game. It gave 519 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: them the ability to read option the defense and then 520 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 2: pull the defense in. So that he could throw it 521 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 2: down the field. It's I'm not talking about it being 522 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 2: a weakness. I'm talking about it highlighting his strength. 523 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then I'll throw saku on Barkley in the mix. Michael, 524 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 3: he's on the roster this year, you know, sign on 525 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 3: that one year deal with a slight bump up from 526 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 3: that franchise tag. How do you view his importance to 527 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 3: the offense, how the Giants give us to utilize him 528 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 3: this year, and just his overall value to the franchise. 529 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 2: Well, look, we know he's a great runner, right, but 530 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 2: for him to be an elite player, and I had 531 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 2: him in my red Chip group, he's got to be 532 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 2: better in the passing game, better in pass protection, which 533 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: he's improved tremendously there. And he's got to run different routes. 534 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: The average less than six yards of catch. Now, great backs, 535 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 2: you've got to average I mean Todd Gurley when the 536 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 2: Rams were good, average, tennant catch, Kamara, Tenneketch, I mean 537 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 2: Eckler not. I mean all those guys are in the nines. 538 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 2: That's where he's got to get to. He's got to 539 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 2: run routes that are more conducive to a receiver than 540 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,479 Speaker 2: just screens or flares. He's got to run more different 541 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 2: different routes, and he's got to be he's got to 542 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 2: be as much involved in the passing game as anything, 543 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: because then he becomes then the offense runs through him 544 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 2: as opposed to feeding him the football in the run game. 545 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 2: If you can't protect and you're in the game. The 546 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 2: defensive coordinators are too smart in the league. They scream, 547 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 2: watch screen, watchtraw he's gonna you know, they're going to 548 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 2: run it, and then they call the defense to play that. 549 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was mostly a checkdown guy his first few 550 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 3: years in the league, and you know, last year, I 551 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 3: think they use him in protection a lot. Is they're 552 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 3: trying to help out the right tackle a little bit 553 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,959 Speaker 3: in some other guys in the offensive line. Two and 554 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 3: this summer and again, we'll see how it translates Michael 555 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 3: that he has been used more on those arrow routes, 556 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 3: some of those choice routes on linebackers. They've run them 557 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 3: on some wheel routes around the outside, so they have 558 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 3: used them in different ways. We'll see if that's able 559 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 3: to translate now, because it also comes back to protection, 560 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 3: right because if you use that running back sometimes in 561 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 3: protection help, then some of that other stuff gets taken 562 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 3: out of the equation. Where do you think the Giants 563 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 3: are in terms of moving their offensive line forward? Something 564 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 3: that's really been something they've been trying to do for years, 565 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 3: and I think they think they're getting there with Andrew Thomas, 566 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 3: Evan Neil and John Michael Schmidz and some of the 567 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 3: young guys. 568 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, they just got to keep developing linemen. I mean, look, 569 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 2: you know when you walk by the two trophies that 570 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 2: they have in their offices in the last few years, 571 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 2: or when Parcells brought the trophies back, I mean, it 572 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 2: was because you had good linemen. Yep. I mean I 573 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 2: remember in eighty six we lost to them when they 574 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 2: won their first Super Bowl, when they beat US forty 575 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: nine to three, when they knocked when Jim Burt knocked 576 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 2: Jill Montana out of the game. I mean, that line 577 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 2: was tremendous. That's what thing you got to get to. 578 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 2: That's part of who the Giants are. They're a big, 579 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 2: physical football team. They are a size speed team that 580 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 2: has to win in the trenches, and for whatever reason, 581 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: it kind of got sideways in some areas, but I 582 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 2: think that's important. They get back to it, and if 583 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 2: they do, that's going to be the key to closing 584 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 2: the gap in the NFC. There's no question. Why do 585 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 2: you think Detroit's having success? I mean a lot. They 586 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: drop their offensive lines outstanding, and golf has time to throw. 587 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, and they have a really varied running game there too. 588 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 3: They run all sorts different running schemes. They do a 589 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 3: really really nice job. Few more of here for Michael 590 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 3: Lombardi again, author of Football Done Right. Michael, the skill 591 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 3: position guys. You mentioned Darren Waller earlier. How valuable is 592 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 3: having a guy of that size who's, by the way, 593 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 3: every bit of six sex. You see the guys listened 594 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 3: at six to six, they show up their six to four. 595 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: This guy's huge. He walked into the building. 596 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 3: I was like, holy cow, this guy is the real 597 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 3: deal in terms of measurements. 598 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: How do you think he's going to help a guy 599 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: like Jones? 600 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 3: And then they've kind of tried to compliment him by 601 00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 3: adding a bunch of guys that can run in the 602 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 3: four fours outside. 603 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 2: Well, I think people are going to treat him as 604 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 2: a receiver. I mean, Waller can play tight, but he's 605 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,479 Speaker 2: not going to block a nine technique. He's not going 606 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 2: to block a seven technique. He's going to block the 607 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 2: force player. So you know when he's on the field, 608 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 2: he's going to get a lot of nickel. And I 609 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 2: think Waller has always been a really talented athlete. The 610 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 2: last couple of years, injuries have been the problem. You know, 611 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 2: he hasn't been able to He's had too many drops 612 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 2: for his guy as talented as he is, and he's 613 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 2: had too much time excuse me time, miss. So you know, 614 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 2: he gives you, he gives you a weapon because it's 615 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 2: very rare you find somebody that can run that fast, 616 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 2: who can do what he can do on the field. 617 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 2: So they need that. I mean, I think that'll help 618 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 2: them because their offense last year, they're playing with a 619 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 2: bunch of different guys, it wasn't explosive. I think he'll 620 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 2: give them that explosive nature. 621 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: All right, big picture, just looking at the Giants. 622 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 3: You've kind of mentioned this a little bit earlier in 623 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 3: one of your answers, that you know they're still kind 624 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 3: of in the process of trying to catch Dallas and Philly. 625 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 3: How much do you think they have closed the gap 626 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 3: to try to compete with those two teams for a 627 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 3: potential division title. 628 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: Well, I think they have, but I mean the schedule 629 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 2: is going to be tougher, right yep. And you know 630 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 2: Washington's a good team. Washington could make the art. I mean, 631 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 2: they beat Washington, they tied, Washington beat Washington. You know, 632 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 2: Washington's fronts are good, their offensive lines struggling. They got 633 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: a rookie quarterback. Look, I think this year, I really 634 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 2: believe this. You don't just go from good to great. 635 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 2: It's a natural progression. You know, when they were when 636 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 2: they in eighty four, when they made the playoffs, you know, 637 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 2: and then the next year they come back and eighty 638 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 2: five they weren't they got beat they weren't ready, and 639 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 2: then they got beat by Chicago, and then eighty six 640 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 2: they're ready to go do it. I think that's the 641 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 2: progression you're looking at. Like they might be a better 642 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: team this year, but not may have as many wins. 643 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 2: But I think sometimes we get too caught up in 644 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 2: the scoreboard as opposed to looking at the progress on 645 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 2: the field, and if they do what they did last 646 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 2: year in terms of win close games, run the six 647 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 2: back offense, and be opportunistic with their deal. I mean 648 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 2: they were great in the red zone last year on defense, 649 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 2: great in the red zone on offense. If they do that, 650 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 2: they're going to be in the games. I mean, look, 651 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,959 Speaker 2: every game comes down to the fourth quarter, right, you know, 652 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 2: and you know you're nine to seven and one, you 653 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 2: make the play. They made the plays in Tennessee to win. 654 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 2: You know, they made the plays against Carolina to win 655 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 2: early in the season. That separates you. Those two games 656 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 2: could have gone either way. And you're seven and nine, 657 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 2: but you're the same kind. 658 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 3: Of team, Michael, let me tell you, you're all over the Giants. 659 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 3: You had knocked this out of the park. 660 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: You're right. 661 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 3: Their red zone was a difference maker on both sides. 662 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 3: They won a ton of close games. They made plays late. 663 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 3: That's how they got to the record last year year 664 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 3: A thousand percent, right, And we'll see if they can 665 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 3: repeat that, because I do think after you get past Philly, Dallas, 666 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 3: San Francisco, the NFC is it's not the AFC now, right. 667 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: You know, there's little more Jackson. 668 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 3: There's no Joe Burrows, there's no Patrick Mahomes, there's no 669 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 3: Justin Herberts, there's no Aaron Rods. You can go down 670 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 3: the list There's a bunch more that are also very 671 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 3: good once you get past those three teams in the NFC, 672 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 3: Like the Giants are right there with pretty much everyone 673 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 3: else in the conference. 674 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 2: No right now, And I mean when they played Thetroy 675 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 2: last year, they played they played a game that they 676 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: can't play. They let the Troy get ahead of them. 677 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 2: They got to play that they got and which showed 678 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 2: up they weren't good enough on defense. They got to 679 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 2: play Detroit where they're ahead of Detroit, so that they 680 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 2: can put pressure on golf. That's the perfect example on 681 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 2: style of play, how you have to play it. And 682 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 2: I think if they can do that, that's why all 683 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 2: this nonsense about we're going to open it up, you're 684 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 2: getting away from what you do really well. 685 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then a final question. You brought this up 686 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 3: a couple of times, like, well again, thanks so much 687 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 3: for the time. Your book's great. You've talked about this 688 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 3: a bunch of things, like game flow, playing from ahead. 689 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 3: You know, I'll throw in just winning the numbers games right, 690 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 3: like getting good personnel matchups, getting your personnel groups against 691 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 3: the personnel groups you want. 692 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: How much how many. 693 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 3: Of these subtle things do you think are kind of 694 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 3: things that you people like you and coaches folks on 695 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 3: the NFL, then maybe fans do not pay attention to 696 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 3: enough that really determines who comes out of winner weekend 697 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 3: week out and who is standing at the end of 698 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 3: these long, you know, really hard fought seasons. 699 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 2: Well it's like chess on grass, right, John, I mean so, like, 700 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 2: let's take we talked about Barkley in the passing game. 701 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 2: You know, if Barkley's on the field and he goes 702 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 2: and lines up in the slot and he proves in 703 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 2: the slot that he can run different routes, that changes 704 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 2: the game completely because now he's in the slot. Who 705 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 2: do I match up with him and take? And it 706 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 2: can't be a lined So say they take one of 707 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 2: the receivers and move them in the backfield, and you 708 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 2: got Barkley outside and I'm using San Francisco, Like Debo 709 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 2: becomes the back. McCaffrey's in the slot. Now, okay, but 710 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 2: when Debo was on the field, I have them. I'm 711 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 2: the corner. I got him. So do I line up 712 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 2: inside the box? Where do I line up out? Where 713 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 2: do I line up? I'm the linebacker, I got McCaffrey. 714 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: Where do I line up. Okay, do I line up 715 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 2: out here on the slot or do I stay it? Like? 716 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 2: How do I do this? And so it causes confusion. 717 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 2: I write about this in the book Why Motion. You 718 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 2: see Why Motion all the time. How did Why Motion 719 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 2: happen in the NFL? Well happened because Bob Trumphy lined 720 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 2: up over on the left and the quarterbacks said, hey, Bob, 721 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 2: you're wrong, move over here to the right, and so 722 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 2: he moves over to the right. And Walsh noticed that 723 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 2: there were five people moving on defense, so he said, 724 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 2: maybe we should do that more often, move the tight 725 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 2: end right. So when you can create a little bit 726 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 2: of confusion but keep it simple for you, you take off. 727 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 2: And I think that's where the Giants need to get 728 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:37,839 Speaker 2: to them. 729 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, And then other things to talk about here too, 730 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 3: Like if a team's going to put eight guys in 731 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 3: the box to try to stop Saquon, can you beat 732 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 3: them with your passing game? 733 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 2: Right? 734 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 3: If a team's going to play a light box against you, 735 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 3: can you punish them with your running game? It's it's 736 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 3: can you do enough against these other books? Teams are 737 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 3: giving you to kind of be variable on how you 738 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 3: succeed a little bit. 739 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 2: Right, right. Well, yeah, I mean the eight to me, 740 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 2: the put eight in the box stops the wrong How 741 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 2: many times have we state in the box stop the run. 742 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 2: When your quarterback can bootleg and naked and you're in 743 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 2: an eight man front, that's the only run, that's the 744 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 2: only play. He blocks somebody, So you really don't have 745 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 2: a seven man front. That was a whole That was 746 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 2: two years with Al Davis living that life. But that's 747 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 2: a whole other time. We talked about that some other time. 748 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 1: Ah. 749 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,919 Speaker 3: Absolutely, Michael, this was great. One more time football done right. 750 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 3: Setting the record straight on the coaches players in history 751 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 3: of the NFL by Michael Lombardi, who is a great 752 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 3: history in the league. Really great historical information in here. 753 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 3: Awesome stuff on tea building, great players, great coaches in 754 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 3: the history of the league. Michael, thanks so much for 755 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,959 Speaker 3: the time. Anything else you want to let the fans 756 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,240 Speaker 3: know about before we say goodbye? 757 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 2: No, I appreciate it. You know, I write. I work 758 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 2: for Visa dot Com online, which is part of DraftKings. 759 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 2: You can check that out every day the Lombardy Line 760 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 2: and we do a show on weekends ten to twelve, 761 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 2: especially Sundays before the game and then the Daily Coach, 762 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 2: which is a leadership website that we write for. So 763 00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 2: it's good. So I'm busy. It's good. 764 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: That's great. 765 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 3: DraftKings is our official partner here with the Giants, so 766 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 3: it's a nice synergy there. 767 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: Michael, good stuff. 768 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us on The Giants Total Podcast, brought 769 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 3: to you by Citizens, the official bank of the Giants. 770 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: We'll see you next time.