WEBVTT - TikTok Part 5: Should We Be Worried About Our Data? 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:04.360 In recent years, Chinese hackers have stolen information from Americans 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:08.200 in some major heists. Marriotts just experience one of the 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:12.600 largest data breaches ever, affecting half a billion of its customers. 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.640 We're talking about email addresses, date of birth. So what 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:18.599 exactly does that hack mean for you? Equifax is a 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:24.160 consumer monitoring company. It's reported this gigantic cyber breach, and 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:28.040 we mean gigantic. We don't know exactly what these hackers 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.480 want with this information, but clearly they wanted it badly 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:35.320 enough to steal it. We spoke to Claudia being Catty. 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.960 I am an economist. I was working on cyber security 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.640 in the financial sector. She specializes in these kinds of 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:46.760 cyber attacks, and one day she got an idea. What 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.000 if these governments didn't have to hack into the databases 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:54.440 or do something illegal to get people's personal information. What 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.640 if they just invented an addictive app that was fun 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:01.160 to use that people would willingly hand over their information to. 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:06.760 I started to worry about what my look like a 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:11.319 perfectly legal activity, like any app that collects data, could 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:16.040 be a conduit for sending data to a hostile government. 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:20.200 And then she heard about TikTok. So I was reading 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:23.640 a lot of news about TikTok, this new Chinese social 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:28.200 app that had times of minions of downloads and was 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:32.240 stopping the charts. So there you had it. The Chinese 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:36.360 government had the possibility of requesting personal data from location, 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:43.520 behavioral data, photo identification through the TikTok videos, or millions 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.400 of people overseas without even needing to carry out a 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:51.080 cyber attack. It looked to me that this was extremely dangerous. 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:55.360 So she wrote a paper where she wore Western governments 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:59.160 that ignoring TikTok could be disastrous, that TikTok could be 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:03.960 used for sp manage and to manipulate public opinion. Claudia 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:06.600 says that what really cut her eye were videos of 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.320 U S soldiers on TikTok. Many of them are teenagers 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.720 using TikTok for fun. They did push up contests, they 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:19.040 made dance videos. Oh sorghe were you in the Marine Corps? Yeah? 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:24.760 A question question, but dare you kill? But Claudia saw 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.800 a big national security problem. The so called military TikTok 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:33.600 was distinct a subgroup of users, quite successful as an 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:41.440 app for very young recruits, find the bad guys and 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.959 of course, not all of these very young soldiers were 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:47.679 aware of the fact that they were potentially sending data 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:51.880 to China. And of course you really don't want this 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.160 data to be disclosed to any private company. But of 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:57.799 course it's even worse if you're doing that with a 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.639 with a feign country. You're listening to Foundering, I'm your host, 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:05.160 Shelley Banjo. Up until now, we've been telling you all 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.079 about the rise of TikTok and how an app from 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:10.520 China hit it big on the world stage for the 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:15.760 first time ever. But TikTok's fortunes were changing quickly. By 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.720 the company would find itself a target of US politicians, 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:24.600 security experts, even Black Lives Matter activists. Many of the 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:29.080 fears about TikTok came down to politics. TikTok's owner, Byte Dance, 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:33.680 is a Chinese company. Critics feared any tech company from China, 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:38.560 especially one built on such advanced AI technology, because it 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:41.880 could mean that very personal data of Americans could wind 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:45.000 up in the hands of the Chinese government, and that 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:49.200 Chinese style censorship could mold a generation of young, politically 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:54.000 savvy Americans. These fears reached a fever pitch and threatened 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.320 to take the whole company down. We'll tell you more 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:10.280 after this break. By now, most of us are resigned 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.720 to the fact that tech companies are tracking our every 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:16.280 move um At this point, I feel like I've been 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.040 on social media. I grew up around computers and phones. 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:22.000 I'm actually not that upset about my data being like 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.520 quote unquote stolen, are being sold because I understand, like 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:27.640 we live in a in an age where technology knows 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.279 everything about you, Like that's kind of a given. That's 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.320 Mila Delatre, She's nineteen. She was kind enough to step 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.520 in as our teenager in residence. I think I'm just 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.359 so used to like, Oh, Facebook's watching you, Instagram's watching you, 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:42.400 Like all your ads are so directed towards you because 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.080 they read your text. So then what's the big deal 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:49.440 about TikTok. It's just another tech company, right, except that 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.480 it's owned by a company in China. And in China, 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:56.359 all companies are required by law to hand over any 0:04:56.400 --> 0:05:01.440 information the government asks for. This isn't just some hypothetical fear. 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:06.360 About twenty years ago, Yahoo gave the Chinese government information 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:11.320 about someone posting online about democracy. The guy was sentenced 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:15.440 to a decade in prison. So far, there's no indication 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:19.200 this is happening with TikTok. A company spokesperson told me 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.680 that people in China can't use TikTok. There's a separate 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:26.239 Chinese version, and TikTok's data is stored in the US 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:30.119 and Singapore. So the company says that American data isn't 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.839 readily available to China. But still, the laws in China 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:37.440 put TikTok in a tricky position. They can swear up 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:39.839 and down that they're not handing over data to the 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:43.600 Chinese government, but it's impossible to prove something is not 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:47.680 happening or that it won't happen in the future. Here's Claudia, 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:50.680 What I actually believe is that they have no way 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.240 to prove that they are in a position to say 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:57.159 not to the Chinese government. So I might believe that 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:01.200 they want to, I actually have no grounds on which 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:05.560 to believe they can. If the controversy around TikTok seems 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:09.040 over the top, it's because in many ways, TikTok became 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:13.680 a symbol for a deeper conflict. Donald Trump rose to 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:17.760 power by blaming a lot of America's problems on China. 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:21.440 As president, he sparked in nasty trade war and a 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:25.839 campaign against China's most high profile targets. It's tech giants, 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:31.080 including bitte Dance, TikTok's parent company. So when Claudia being 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.760 Cotti's paper came out saying that TikTok is the Chinese 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:38.640 company we need to worry about, its set off a frenzy. 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:44.600 The US, UK, Australian and Indian governments all started investigating TikTok. 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:49.000 The U S military banned their members from using the platform, 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.920 a number of users sued the app, and all these 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:56.039 accusations started flying around about TikTok and their Chinese founders. 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:01.480 TikTok pushed back at these accusations, but many powerful people 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:06.159 just didn't believe them. Here Senator Marco Rubio, he's one 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.560 of TikTok's earliest and loudest critics. All these companies will 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:11.520 tell you the same thing. We don't turn over data. 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:13.720 It is the law in China that you turn over 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:15.800 data when they ask you for it. And all the 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:19.160 engineers that work for byte Dance that ultimately have the 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:22.480 keys to to whatever it is they're storing in the US, 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:24.960 if they want that data, they can get it. I 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.680 spoke to Marco Rubio after he asked for a formal 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:32.440 investigation into TikTok from a government committee called SIPHIAS. SIPHIAS 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.880 stands for the Committee on Foreign Investment in the US. 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:38.000 So if you're an American business and you want to 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.160 make a deal with a company from say China or Poland, 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:43.640 then SIPHIUS might look at your deal to see if 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.880 there are any risks to national security. But usually they 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:51.240 focus on deals involving stuff like nuclear power, not social networks. 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.920 So Bye Dances CEO John Ming never thought he needed 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:58.400 to get approval from SIPHIUS. Plus, when Bye Dance bought 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.880 musically and folded the app into TikTok, this was one 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:05.680 Chinese company buying another Chinese company, so it was a 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:09.880 big surprise. When Syphia started investigating TikTok, they said TikTok 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.200 had such a big base of American users that it 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:17.640 warranted review. The investigation caught TikTok off guard, and it 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.840 also caught Senator Rubio into some trouble at home with 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:24.120 his teenage sons. Just laughing, I put something out on 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:26.120 Instagram like a month and a half ago about if 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:28.440 you want your all your data going to China, leave 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:32.160 your kids on TikTok. So parents at the school al 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:34.400 saw and make their kids delete TikTok, and so now 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:37.160 the kids are kind of upset at my kids because 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.720 of me putting that out there and that sort of deal. 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.319 It's a pretty funny situation, but it also speaks to 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:45.440 how hard it is to make kids get rid of 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:49.600 the app. Even Marco Rubio could hardly do it. After 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:53.640 Rubio started talking about TikTok, other u S lawmakers piled on. 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:59.080 Democrats and Republicans united in the push against TikTok. Senators 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:02.760 Chuck Schumer and Tom Cotton asked for a national security review, 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.400 and Senator Josh Holly pass legislation to ban all you 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.680 as federal employees from downloading TikTok. We interviewed Holly back 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:15.400 in September. This was months before he stoked election conspiracies 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.360 that inspired the deadly riot on Capitol Hill. Well, TikTok, 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:22.440 as I think, in a uniquely invasive app. In many ways, 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.199 there is no reason TikTok needs to collect key strokes. 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.080 There's no reason that TikTok or any other app like 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.320 that needs to have access to your contact list. To 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.880 your text messages, to your browsing history, your location history, 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.280 none of that. To Holly, giving data to TikTok was 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:42.000 the equivalent of giving it straight to the Chinese Communist Party. 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.520 Bye Dance has Chinese Communist Party members as part of 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.480 its executive leadership structure, and we know that Byte Dance 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:53.040 actually pledged publicly to Beijing that they would be good citizens, 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:56.880 uh good you know, communists, and would allow the Chinese 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:01.960 Communist Party access to to Bite Dance leadership. Again, there's 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.600 no indication that TikTok has passed along American data to 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:10.440 the Chinese government. But anti TikTok sentiment was building, and 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:15.000 there was one person in particular who was cheering Facebook's 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:20.440 Mark Zuckerberg for years. Zuckerberg saw TikTok grow, becoming a 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:25.120 major competitor, drawing people away from Facebook and Instagram. So 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:29.000 Zuckerberg decides to issue his own warning to Washington. He 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:31.680 had been called up to Congress to defend accusations that 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.640 Facebook had gotten too big. Instead, he uses as his 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:39.880 chance to deflect attention to China. Here Senator Dan Sullivan 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:45.440 from Alaska questioning Zuckerberg. Mr. Zuckerberg, Quite a story, right, 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:50.280 dorm room to the global behemoth that you guys are 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:55.040 only in America. Would you agree with that, Senator, mostly 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:57.120 in America and you couldn't do this in China, right 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:01.080 or what you did in years? Well, Senator, there are 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.520 there are some very strong Chinese internet companies, right, But 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:10.599 you're supposed to answer yes to this question. Okay, come on, 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.280 trying to help you, right, I mean, give me a break. 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.560 The answer is yes, okay, so thank you. Um. The 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:20.480 senators are all laughing, but Suckerberg is looking ahead, barely 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:24.640 blinking with a super straight face. Because Suckerberg came before 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:29.440 Congress with very specific talking points that Chinese internet companies 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.400 like TikTok needed to be stopped. He says the issue 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.360 is bigger than Facebook and that the rise of China's 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:39.079 tech companies were huge threat to America. Is face. One 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.840 of the key issues here is Facebook too powerful? Are 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:47.640 you too powerful? And do you think you're too powerful? Well? 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:51.360 I think most of the time when people talk about 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:56.840 our scale, they're referencing that we have two billion people 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:58.719 in our community. And I think one of the big 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:02.200 questions that we need to think through here is the 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:04.360 vast majority of those two billion people are outside of 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:08.200 the US, and I think that that's something that, to 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:11.160 your point, that Americans should be proud of. And when 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:13.200 I brought up the Chinese internet companies, I think that 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.320 that's a real, a real strategic and competitive threat that 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:20.320 in in American technology. We can see another thing here 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.520 real quick, I want to I don't want to interrupt, 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:26.240 but this was a huge one eight for Zuckerberg. He 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.920 spent years trying to get into the good graces of 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:33.160 the Chinese government because Facebook was banned in China. He 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:37.320 learned Mandarin and bragged about speaking to China's president Shi Jimping. 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:41.839 He was so confident about winning China over, but none 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:46.240 of it worked, and Zuckerberg eventually gave up. He shifted gears, 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.480 and China became the enemy. In a later speech at 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:54.640 Georgetown University, Zuckerberg named TikTok directly. While our services like 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:59.280 WhatsApp are used by protesters and activists due to strong 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:03.200 encryption privacy protections on TikTok, the Chinese app growing quickly 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:06.640 around the world, mentions of these same protests are censored 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:11.079 even here in the US. Is that the internet that 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:22.720 we want? We'll be right back TikTok has been haunted 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:24.920 by the question of what they're doing with all the 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:29.880 data they collect. The media, regulators, world leaders, and even 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.840 TikTok users won't let up. I spoke to John Boyd Bolton, 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.800 a former Bite Dance employee. We heard from him in 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:40.440 a previous episode. Well, I mean it's upsetting for me 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:44.600 because I know them. I have friends that work there, 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.320 and you know this could hurt them. Um, I really 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.640 don't think there's a national security threat. I just because 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.800 of the way I know Yimming and that team. They're 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:56.600 really trying to build a great company. And I don't 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:00.280 think they're a national security threat. I don't. I don't that. 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.200 I think there's other things at play here. John told 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:07.520 me the investigations around TikTok seemed politically motivated. He worked 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.360 with By Dances CEO John ki Ming, and he just 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:12.959 felt that Eaming worked too hard to put his business 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.560 in danger. China would totally compromise them if they did that, 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:18.160 and I don't think China wants to do that. I 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.920 think they're smart to know, like, yeah, let's this is 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:24.880 the first real Chinese tech company to be successful outside 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.680 of the Chinese borders, particularly in America. I think, what 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:30.480 kind of user data are they going to get that 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.920 actually helps them do anything. You can hear the sympathy 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:37.400 in John's voice for Yu Ming. John helped Eming buy 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.600 up US startups. It was part of Ming's grand plan 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.120 to achieve his dream of becoming the first consumer tech 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.560 company from China to make it bigg around the world. 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:50.400 The great irony is that once Eeming succeeded at becoming 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:54.880 a history making CEO, the American politicians were saying, whoa 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:57.800 wait a second, we don't want a Chinese guy to 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.120 run the most popular app in America. So by the 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.720 end of twenty nineteen, you mean came up with a 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:07.720 new idea. He decides to rebrand TikTok as an American 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:11.440 company instead, and Jiman puts a lot of money into it. 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:14.400 He ramps up hiring in the US and puts a 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.800 bunch of Washington lobbyists on salary. He moves TikTok's content 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.040 moderation out of China, and he tells his team in 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.680 Beijing he wants a major revamp. Should we set up 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:29.360 TikTok's global headquarters outside of China? Should we sell a 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.440 stake in the company to an American investor, should we 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.040 do an IPO in New York. It was all on 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:38.360 the table, and there was one more PR push I 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:42.000 thought was pretty funny. Like a lot of companies, TikTok 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.840 is incorporated in the Cayman Islands. But TikTok started saying 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.560 they were based in the Cayman Islands, even though they 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:52.920 had few, if any employees there, and their PR team 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:57.120 starts calling up journalists, including me and my colleagues and 0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:00.000 chewing us out when we called TikTok a Chinese company. 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:05.840 Any So, in November, TikTok agrees to sit down interview 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.600 with The New York Times. But even though John ki 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.360 Ming is the big boss in Beijing, TikTok sent Musically's 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:16.440 founder Alex jew Alex was back. He had taken a 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.280 few months off after the big TikTok launch in the US, 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:23.560 but Eming asked him to return. Ray John, the New 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.400 York Times reporter who wrote the story, said it was 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.120 the first time anyone was able to get Alex on 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.560 the record to answer the question that was on everyone's mind. 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:37.040 I asked very directly, if Seating Ping approached you, Alex 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:41.840 drew and asked for asked you to collect data on Americans? 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:44.000 What would you do? And he and he sort of 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.040 said I would turn him down. He's just really immediately answered, 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.840 didn't really even take take a moment to think about it. 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.640 It seems like a cut and dry response from Alex. Right, 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:56.400 of course, TikTok wouldn't share data with the Chinese government, 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.080 And isn't this what Americans wanted to hear? But it 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:04.440 Race says, the response from Alex totally backfired. Many people 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:09.800 simply didn't believe him, and the interview just raised more questions. Yeah, ultimately, 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.480 maybe it's just because he's not eating he's not the 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.320 absolute head of the company. He's not you know, he 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.960 is ultimately still reporting to Eaming and he he's only 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:24.400 in charge of TikTok, and maybe he could say um uh. 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.919 Even if I say no, Eming might still love to 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.280 say yes. And in fact, I think the next thing 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:31.520 Alex said after I asked the question was but I 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:34.840 don't think cheating p would ever ask me Um to 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.480 do those things. And I don't know if he meant 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.040 that in the sense that he would know cheating would 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:45.560 never approach me. Lowly, Alex drew Um to ask for 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:47.920 such things, or if he meant that cheating Pie would 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:51.600 never want data on Americans. I'm not sure. Even though 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.320 Alex was in charge of Tiktokiming was the ultimate boss 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:59.320 for years, Eaming shied away from interviews with Western media. 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:01.720 He he's never said on the record that he would 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:05.640 turn down China's leader Shi Jimping. This was a difficult 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:10.000 situation for TikTok. Here's my colleague Chipping Huang. They have 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:13.720 to show the world that they say something never happened, 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.680 but they have to prove that never happened. How can 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:20.600 improve something that has never happened. A TikTok spokesperson told 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:22.480 me that Eming has never been in charge of the 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.639 day to day operations at TikTok and that the company 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.720 doesn't share data with the Chinese government. To try to 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.040 smooth things over in Washington, Ming wanted to send Alex 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.320 to d C to speak directly with politicians and convince 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.000 them that TikTok wasn't an nefarious actor. So Alex lined 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:41.800 up a number of meetings with U. S senators, including 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:45.560 Holly and Tennessee Senator Marsha Blackburn. There was a lot 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:49.040 of build up news reports came out announcing these meetings, 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.600 but at the last minute, Alex got cold feet and 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:57.600 didn't show up at the time, Senator Holly tweeted, TikTok 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:00.520 just canceled their meeting with me this week. Willing to 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:04.240 answer questions get a call from Beijing. TikTok, one of 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:08.040 the world's most valuable tech startups, has postponed multiple meetings 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:12.280 scheduled on Capitol Hill this week, canceled, rescheduled, delayed. What's 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.639 going on. We're told these are delayed and that they 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.720 will be rescheduled in the new year. Of course, some 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:21.200 of these senators are curious why they pulled the plug, 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.880 but in theory, we should be hearing about these again 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:29.120 in TikTok never did reschedule the meetings. When I asked why, 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.600 a TikTok spokesperson told me they fell through because it 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.960 was just before Christmas and most folks weren't available to meet. 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:38.879 But other sources told me that Alex didn't go to 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.119 Washington because he just didn't want to go. They didn't 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:46.240 feel comfortable. Here's Rama, a former tech banker who's followed 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.119 by Dance for years. I mean, just like just looking 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:50.960 at the man right he's a little bit more like 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:55.280 a Jack Dorsey, you know, very sort of alternative. He's 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.880 not like the He just doesn't seem like the guy 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:02.000 who wants to suit up and go in front of Congress. 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.680 This is a terrible look for Alex. His main job 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.440 at that point was trying to make American lawmakers feel 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:12.040 more comfortable with TikTok, not ghosting a bunch of senators. 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.560 At this point, Alex was on the cusp of losing 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:18.960 his job. Right around that time, Meaning hired a well 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:21.960 known American recruiting firm to start looking for a new 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:26.080 CEO for TikTok. Eming wanted an American face at the top. 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:28.600 I had heard in two thousand nineteen that Jim was 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:30.760 spending a ton of time in the US looking for 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:36.320 a CEO to lead TikTok, and this person took him 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:38.320 a really long time to find because they were hoping 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:42.560 for someone with d n A in both technology, entertainment 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:46.560 and also of course the political connections that you know, 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:50.600 might be necessary to ensure the app success in the US. 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:53.639 So if you think about it, someone with San Francisco, 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.920 Los Angeles and Washington d C networks and expertise would 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:01.560 just be very very difficult to find. Okay, If the 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.760 first thing on Eming's wish list was an American CEO, 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:07.560 the next thing was finding an American tech company to 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.399 form an alliance with and serve as an ally in 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:15.600 TikTok's campaign to win over Washington. So in December, you 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.879 Mean flies to Seattle for a secret visit with Microsoft 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:23.280 CEO such An Adela. You Mean and Satya overlap briefly 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:26.760 during ming short stint at Microsoft, and even though Bye 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:30.639 Dance and Microsoft made for strange bedfellows, Eming wanted to 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:34.240 propose a partnership that they could both benefit from. Here's 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:37.320 my colleague, Dina Bass, She's covered Microsoft for more than 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:39.840 twenty years. If you're Bye Dance, that you're going to 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:43.080 be thinking about is how do I find someone that 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:46.120 is going to create a relationship that helps me with 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:50.080 my problems with the US government, that's credible with with Congress, 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:53.240 that's credible with President Trump. And Microsoft is a good 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.240 choice for them because of that. Microsoft didn't have a 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.200 lot of experience in social media, and you Mean saw 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:01.440 that as a good thing. He thought he could trust 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.760 such An Adela. I think for a Bite Dance perspective, 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:06.840 they didn't want to work with anyone who could be 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.560 a competitor, and I think that rules out Google because 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:15.000 of YouTube and google significant social media presence there, Microsoft 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.880 has really nothing to speak of in the social media area. 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:22.560 In return, you mean dangle the promise of storing byte 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:26.760 dance massive amounts of data with Microsoft's cloud business. This 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:30.359 meeting hasn't been reported on, but it was important because 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:33.280 it laid the groundwork for a much bigger discussion about 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:37.200 Microsoft and TikTok joining forces down the line, and then 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.399 later leaving hopped on a plane for Davos to attend 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:44.359 the World Economic Forum. It was a personal triumph for Eming, 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.240 who finally got to rub shoulders with the likes of 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:51.679 Sundar Pichai and Cheryl Sandberg. TikTok was a hot topic 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:55.200 of conversation at Davis that year, although you mean didn't 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:59.359 headline any big events, other influential people defended TikTok on 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:02.320 stage four for him. There's another factor though, that I'm 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:04.920 hearing is I'm meeting with CEOs of Chinese companies that 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:07.359 are growing. Do they want to be positions in the 0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:09.159 world as a Chinese company or do they want to 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:11.760 be positioned in the world as a global company. That's 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:15.360 David Solomon, the CEO of Goldman Sachs, talking to Bite 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:19.280 Dances board member Bill Ford about TikTok's rebranding. It's a 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:21.119 great point for two reasons. If you take if you 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:24.480 take Bite Dance million daily active users six fifty or 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:27.520 TikTok outside the Chinese firewall. And when we talk about 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:30.639 a lot at the board, is a global internet company 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:33.680 with Chinese heritage as opposed to a Chinese internet company. 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:36.359 I think that is exactly right. So the CEO of 0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:40.720 General Atlantic, who's also one of Bite dances biggest investors, 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:44.359 is on stage pushing the idea that TikTok wasn't a 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:49.240 Chinese company. He's saying, it's not Chinese, it's global. Here's 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:52.960 my colleague Chipping. The biggest reason, and maybe the only 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:57.800 reason people have doubts people can trust trains tech companies 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:01.520 is that they are from a cone tree that is 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:05.560 not a democracy. It's the Communist Party. It's the Chinese 0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:08.840 coleman who had a final boss. What can you do 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:11.800 as a business, You try your best to shake off 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:16.000 that image. After Davos Ming took his young daughter and 0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:18.880 wife who also works at By Dance, on a trip 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:22.239