1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: In recent years, Chinese hackers have stolen information from Americans 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: in some major heists. Marriotts just experience one of the 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: largest data breaches ever, affecting half a billion of its customers. 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: We're talking about email addresses, date of birth. So what 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: exactly does that hack mean for you? Equifax is a 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: consumer monitoring company. It's reported this gigantic cyber breach, and 7 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: we mean gigantic. We don't know exactly what these hackers 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: want with this information, but clearly they wanted it badly 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: enough to steal it. We spoke to Claudia being Catty. 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: I am an economist. I was working on cyber security 11 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: in the financial sector. She specializes in these kinds of 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: cyber attacks, and one day she got an idea. What 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: if these governments didn't have to hack into the databases 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: or do something illegal to get people's personal information. What 15 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: if they just invented an addictive app that was fun 16 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: to use that people would willingly hand over their information to. 17 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: I started to worry about what my look like a 18 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: perfectly legal activity, like any app that collects data, could 19 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: be a conduit for sending data to a hostile government. 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: And then she heard about TikTok. So I was reading 21 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: a lot of news about TikTok, this new Chinese social 22 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: app that had times of minions of downloads and was 23 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: stopping the charts. So there you had it. The Chinese 24 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: government had the possibility of requesting personal data from location, 25 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: behavioral data, photo identification through the TikTok videos, or millions 26 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: of people overseas without even needing to carry out a 27 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: cyber attack. It looked to me that this was extremely dangerous. 28 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: So she wrote a paper where she wore Western governments 29 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: that ignoring TikTok could be disastrous, that TikTok could be 30 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: used for sp manage and to manipulate public opinion. Claudia 31 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: says that what really cut her eye were videos of 32 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: U S soldiers on TikTok. Many of them are teenagers 33 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: using TikTok for fun. They did push up contests, they 34 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: made dance videos. Oh sorghe were you in the Marine Corps? Yeah? 35 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: A question question, but dare you kill? But Claudia saw 36 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: a big national security problem. The so called military TikTok 37 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: was distinct a subgroup of users, quite successful as an 38 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: app for very young recruits, find the bad guys and 39 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,959 Speaker 1: of course, not all of these very young soldiers were 40 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,679 Speaker 1: aware of the fact that they were potentially sending data 41 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: to China. And of course you really don't want this 42 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: data to be disclosed to any private company. But of 43 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 1: course it's even worse if you're doing that with a 44 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: with a feign country. You're listening to Foundering, I'm your host, 45 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: Shelley Banjo. Up until now, we've been telling you all 46 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: about the rise of TikTok and how an app from 47 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: China hit it big on the world stage for the 48 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: first time ever. But TikTok's fortunes were changing quickly. By 49 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: the company would find itself a target of US politicians, 50 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: security experts, even Black Lives Matter activists. Many of the 51 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: fears about TikTok came down to politics. TikTok's owner, Byte Dance, 52 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: is a Chinese company. Critics feared any tech company from China, 53 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: especially one built on such advanced AI technology, because it 54 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: could mean that very personal data of Americans could wind 55 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: up in the hands of the Chinese government, and that 56 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: Chinese style censorship could mold a generation of young, politically 57 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: savvy Americans. These fears reached a fever pitch and threatened 58 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: to take the whole company down. We'll tell you more 59 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: after this break. By now, most of us are resigned 60 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: to the fact that tech companies are tracking our every 61 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: move um At this point, I feel like I've been 62 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: on social media. I grew up around computers and phones. 63 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: I'm actually not that upset about my data being like 64 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: quote unquote stolen, are being sold because I understand, like 65 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: we live in a in an age where technology knows 66 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: everything about you, Like that's kind of a given. That's 67 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: Mila Delatre, She's nineteen. She was kind enough to step 68 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: in as our teenager in residence. I think I'm just 69 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: so used to like, Oh, Facebook's watching you, Instagram's watching you, 70 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: Like all your ads are so directed towards you because 71 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: they read your text. So then what's the big deal 72 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: about TikTok. It's just another tech company, right, except that 73 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: it's owned by a company in China. And in China, 74 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: all companies are required by law to hand over any 75 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: information the government asks for. This isn't just some hypothetical fear. 76 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: About twenty years ago, Yahoo gave the Chinese government information 77 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: about someone posting online about democracy. The guy was sentenced 78 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: to a decade in prison. So far, there's no indication 79 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: this is happening with TikTok. A company spokesperson told me 80 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: that people in China can't use TikTok. There's a separate 81 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,239 Speaker 1: Chinese version, and TikTok's data is stored in the US 82 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,119 Speaker 1: and Singapore. So the company says that American data isn't 83 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: readily available to China. But still, the laws in China 84 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: put TikTok in a tricky position. They can swear up 85 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: and down that they're not handing over data to the 86 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: Chinese government, but it's impossible to prove something is not 87 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: happening or that it won't happen in the future. Here's Claudia, 88 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: What I actually believe is that they have no way 89 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: to prove that they are in a position to say 90 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: not to the Chinese government. So I might believe that 91 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: they want to, I actually have no grounds on which 92 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: to believe they can. If the controversy around TikTok seems 93 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: over the top, it's because in many ways, TikTok became 94 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: a symbol for a deeper conflict. Donald Trump rose to 95 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: power by blaming a lot of America's problems on China. 96 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: As president, he sparked in nasty trade war and a 97 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: campaign against China's most high profile targets. It's tech giants, 98 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: including bitte Dance, TikTok's parent company. So when Claudia being 99 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: Cotti's paper came out saying that TikTok is the Chinese 100 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: company we need to worry about, its set off a frenzy. 101 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: The US, UK, Australian and Indian governments all started investigating TikTok. 102 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: The U S military banned their members from using the platform, 103 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: a number of users sued the app, and all these 104 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: accusations started flying around about TikTok and their Chinese founders. 105 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: TikTok pushed back at these accusations, but many powerful people 106 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: just didn't believe them. Here Senator Marco Rubio, he's one 107 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: of TikTok's earliest and loudest critics. All these companies will 108 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: tell you the same thing. We don't turn over data. 109 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: It is the law in China that you turn over 110 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: data when they ask you for it. And all the 111 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: engineers that work for byte Dance that ultimately have the 112 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: keys to to whatever it is they're storing in the US, 113 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: if they want that data, they can get it. I 114 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: spoke to Marco Rubio after he asked for a formal 115 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: investigation into TikTok from a government committee called SIPHIAS. SIPHIAS 116 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: stands for the Committee on Foreign Investment in the US. 117 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: So if you're an American business and you want to 118 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: make a deal with a company from say China or Poland, 119 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: then SIPHIUS might look at your deal to see if 120 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: there are any risks to national security. But usually they 121 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: focus on deals involving stuff like nuclear power, not social networks. 122 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: So Bye Dances CEO John Ming never thought he needed 123 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: to get approval from SIPHIUS. Plus, when Bye Dance bought 124 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: musically and folded the app into TikTok, this was one 125 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: Chinese company buying another Chinese company, so it was a 126 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: big surprise. When Syphia started investigating TikTok, they said TikTok 127 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: had such a big base of American users that it 128 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: warranted review. The investigation caught TikTok off guard, and it 129 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: also caught Senator Rubio into some trouble at home with 130 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: his teenage sons. Just laughing, I put something out on 131 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: Instagram like a month and a half ago about if 132 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: you want your all your data going to China, leave 133 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: your kids on TikTok. So parents at the school al 134 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: saw and make their kids delete TikTok, and so now 135 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: the kids are kind of upset at my kids because 136 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: of me putting that out there and that sort of deal. 137 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 1: It's a pretty funny situation, but it also speaks to 138 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: how hard it is to make kids get rid of 139 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: the app. Even Marco Rubio could hardly do it. After 140 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: Rubio started talking about TikTok, other u S lawmakers piled on. 141 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: Democrats and Republicans united in the push against TikTok. Senators 142 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer and Tom Cotton asked for a national security review, 143 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: and Senator Josh Holly pass legislation to ban all you 144 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: as federal employees from downloading TikTok. We interviewed Holly back 145 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: in September. This was months before he stoked election conspiracies 146 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: that inspired the deadly riot on Capitol Hill. Well, TikTok, 147 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: as I think, in a uniquely invasive app. In many ways, 148 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: there is no reason TikTok needs to collect key strokes. 149 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: There's no reason that TikTok or any other app like 150 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: that needs to have access to your contact list. To 151 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: your text messages, to your browsing history, your location history, 152 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: none of that. To Holly, giving data to TikTok was 153 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: the equivalent of giving it straight to the Chinese Communist Party. 154 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: Bye Dance has Chinese Communist Party members as part of 155 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: its executive leadership structure, and we know that Byte Dance 156 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: actually pledged publicly to Beijing that they would be good citizens, 157 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: uh good you know, communists, and would allow the Chinese 158 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: Communist Party access to to Bite Dance leadership. Again, there's 159 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: no indication that TikTok has passed along American data to 160 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: the Chinese government. But anti TikTok sentiment was building, and 161 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: there was one person in particular who was cheering Facebook's 162 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg for years. Zuckerberg saw TikTok grow, becoming a 163 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: major competitor, drawing people away from Facebook and Instagram. So 164 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg decides to issue his own warning to Washington. He 165 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: had been called up to Congress to defend accusations that 166 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: Facebook had gotten too big. Instead, he uses as his 167 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: chance to deflect attention to China. Here Senator Dan Sullivan 168 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: from Alaska questioning Zuckerberg. Mr. Zuckerberg, Quite a story, right, 169 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: dorm room to the global behemoth that you guys are 170 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: only in America. Would you agree with that, Senator, mostly 171 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: in America and you couldn't do this in China, right 172 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: or what you did in years? Well, Senator, there are 173 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: there are some very strong Chinese internet companies, right, But 174 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:10,599 Speaker 1: you're supposed to answer yes to this question. Okay, come on, 175 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: trying to help you, right, I mean, give me a break. 176 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: The answer is yes, okay, so thank you. Um. The 177 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: senators are all laughing, but Suckerberg is looking ahead, barely 178 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: blinking with a super straight face. Because Suckerberg came before 179 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: Congress with very specific talking points that Chinese internet companies 180 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: like TikTok needed to be stopped. He says the issue 181 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: is bigger than Facebook and that the rise of China's 182 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 1: tech companies were huge threat to America. Is face. One 183 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: of the key issues here is Facebook too powerful? Are 184 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: you too powerful? And do you think you're too powerful? Well? 185 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: I think most of the time when people talk about 186 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: our scale, they're referencing that we have two billion people 187 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:58,719 Speaker 1: in our community. And I think one of the big 188 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: questions that we need to think through here is the 189 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: vast majority of those two billion people are outside of 190 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: the US, and I think that that's something that, to 191 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: your point, that Americans should be proud of. And when 192 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: I brought up the Chinese internet companies, I think that 193 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: that's a real, a real strategic and competitive threat that 194 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: in in American technology. We can see another thing here 195 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: real quick, I want to I don't want to interrupt, 196 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: but this was a huge one eight for Zuckerberg. He 197 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: spent years trying to get into the good graces of 198 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: the Chinese government because Facebook was banned in China. He 199 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: learned Mandarin and bragged about speaking to China's president Shi Jimping. 200 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 1: He was so confident about winning China over, but none 201 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: of it worked, and Zuckerberg eventually gave up. He shifted gears, 202 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: and China became the enemy. In a later speech at 203 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: Georgetown University, Zuckerberg named TikTok directly. While our services like 204 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: WhatsApp are used by protesters and activists due to strong 205 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: encryption privacy protections on TikTok, the Chinese app growing quickly 206 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: around the world, mentions of these same protests are censored 207 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: even here in the US. Is that the internet that 208 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: we want? We'll be right back TikTok has been haunted 209 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: by the question of what they're doing with all the 210 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: data they collect. The media, regulators, world leaders, and even 211 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: TikTok users won't let up. I spoke to John Boyd Bolton, 212 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: a former Bite Dance employee. We heard from him in 213 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: a previous episode. Well, I mean it's upsetting for me 214 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: because I know them. I have friends that work there, 215 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: and you know this could hurt them. Um, I really 216 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: don't think there's a national security threat. I just because 217 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: of the way I know Yimming and that team. They're 218 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: really trying to build a great company. And I don't 219 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: think they're a national security threat. I don't. I don't that. 220 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: I think there's other things at play here. John told 221 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: me the investigations around TikTok seemed politically motivated. He worked 222 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: with By Dances CEO John ki Ming, and he just 223 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 1: felt that Eaming worked too hard to put his business 224 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: in danger. China would totally compromise them if they did that, 225 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: and I don't think China wants to do that. I 226 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: think they're smart to know, like, yeah, let's this is 227 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: the first real Chinese tech company to be successful outside 228 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: of the Chinese borders, particularly in America. I think, what 229 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: kind of user data are they going to get that 230 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: actually helps them do anything. You can hear the sympathy 231 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: in John's voice for Yu Ming. John helped Eming buy 232 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: up US startups. It was part of Ming's grand plan 233 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: to achieve his dream of becoming the first consumer tech 234 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: company from China to make it bigg around the world. 235 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: The great irony is that once Eeming succeeded at becoming 236 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: a history making CEO, the American politicians were saying, whoa 237 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: wait a second, we don't want a Chinese guy to 238 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: run the most popular app in America. So by the 239 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: end of twenty nineteen, you mean came up with a 240 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: new idea. He decides to rebrand TikTok as an American 241 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: company instead, and Jiman puts a lot of money into it. 242 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: He ramps up hiring in the US and puts a 243 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: bunch of Washington lobbyists on salary. He moves TikTok's content 244 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: moderation out of China, and he tells his team in 245 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: Beijing he wants a major revamp. Should we set up 246 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: TikTok's global headquarters outside of China? Should we sell a 247 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: stake in the company to an American investor, should we 248 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: do an IPO in New York. It was all on 249 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: the table, and there was one more PR push I 250 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: thought was pretty funny. Like a lot of companies, TikTok 251 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: is incorporated in the Cayman Islands. But TikTok started saying 252 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: they were based in the Cayman Islands, even though they 253 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: had few, if any employees there, and their PR team 254 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: starts calling up journalists, including me and my colleagues and 255 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: chewing us out when we called TikTok a Chinese company. 256 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: Any So, in November, TikTok agrees to sit down interview 257 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: with The New York Times. But even though John ki 258 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: Ming is the big boss in Beijing, TikTok sent Musically's 259 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: founder Alex jew Alex was back. He had taken a 260 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: few months off after the big TikTok launch in the US, 261 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: but Eming asked him to return. Ray John, the New 262 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: York Times reporter who wrote the story, said it was 263 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: the first time anyone was able to get Alex on 264 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: the record to answer the question that was on everyone's mind. 265 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: I asked very directly, if Seating Ping approached you, Alex 266 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: drew and asked for asked you to collect data on Americans? 267 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: What would you do? And he and he sort of 268 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: said I would turn him down. He's just really immediately answered, 269 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: didn't really even take take a moment to think about it. 270 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: It seems like a cut and dry response from Alex. Right, 271 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: of course, TikTok wouldn't share data with the Chinese government, 272 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: And isn't this what Americans wanted to hear? But it 273 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: Race says, the response from Alex totally backfired. Many people 274 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: simply didn't believe him, and the interview just raised more questions. Yeah, ultimately, 275 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: maybe it's just because he's not eating he's not the 276 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: absolute head of the company. He's not you know, he 277 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: is ultimately still reporting to Eaming and he he's only 278 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: in charge of TikTok, and maybe he could say um uh. 279 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: Even if I say no, Eming might still love to 280 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: say yes. And in fact, I think the next thing 281 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: Alex said after I asked the question was but I 282 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: don't think cheating p would ever ask me Um to 283 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: do those things. And I don't know if he meant 284 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: that in the sense that he would know cheating would 285 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: never approach me. Lowly, Alex drew Um to ask for 286 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: such things, or if he meant that cheating Pie would 287 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: never want data on Americans. I'm not sure. Even though 288 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: Alex was in charge of Tiktokiming was the ultimate boss 289 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: for years, Eaming shied away from interviews with Western media. 290 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: He he's never said on the record that he would 291 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: turn down China's leader Shi Jimping. This was a difficult 292 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: situation for TikTok. Here's my colleague Chipping Huang. They have 293 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: to show the world that they say something never happened, 294 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: but they have to prove that never happened. How can 295 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: improve something that has never happened. A TikTok spokesperson told 296 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: me that Eming has never been in charge of the 297 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: day to day operations at TikTok and that the company 298 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: doesn't share data with the Chinese government. To try to 299 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: smooth things over in Washington, Ming wanted to send Alex 300 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: to d C to speak directly with politicians and convince 301 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: them that TikTok wasn't an nefarious actor. So Alex lined 302 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: up a number of meetings with U. S senators, including 303 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: Holly and Tennessee Senator Marsha Blackburn. There was a lot 304 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: of build up news reports came out announcing these meetings, 305 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: but at the last minute, Alex got cold feet and 306 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: didn't show up at the time, Senator Holly tweeted, TikTok 307 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: just canceled their meeting with me this week. Willing to 308 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: answer questions get a call from Beijing. TikTok, one of 309 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: the world's most valuable tech startups, has postponed multiple meetings 310 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: scheduled on Capitol Hill this week, canceled, rescheduled, delayed. What's 311 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: going on. We're told these are delayed and that they 312 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: will be rescheduled in the new year. Of course, some 313 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: of these senators are curious why they pulled the plug, 314 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: but in theory, we should be hearing about these again 315 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: in TikTok never did reschedule the meetings. When I asked why, 316 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: a TikTok spokesperson told me they fell through because it 317 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: was just before Christmas and most folks weren't available to meet. 318 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: But other sources told me that Alex didn't go to 319 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: Washington because he just didn't want to go. They didn't 320 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: feel comfortable. Here's Rama, a former tech banker who's followed 321 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: by Dance for years. I mean, just like just looking 322 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: at the man right he's a little bit more like 323 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: a Jack Dorsey, you know, very sort of alternative. He's 324 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 1: not like the He just doesn't seem like the guy 325 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: who wants to suit up and go in front of Congress. 326 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: This is a terrible look for Alex. His main job 327 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: at that point was trying to make American lawmakers feel 328 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: more comfortable with TikTok, not ghosting a bunch of senators. 329 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: At this point, Alex was on the cusp of losing 330 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: his job. Right around that time, Meaning hired a well 331 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: known American recruiting firm to start looking for a new 332 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: CEO for TikTok. Eming wanted an American face at the top. 333 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: I had heard in two thousand nineteen that Jim was 334 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: spending a ton of time in the US looking for 335 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: a CEO to lead TikTok, and this person took him 336 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: a really long time to find because they were hoping 337 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: for someone with d n A in both technology, entertainment 338 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: and also of course the political connections that you know, 339 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: might be necessary to ensure the app success in the US. 340 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: So if you think about it, someone with San Francisco, 341 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: Los Angeles and Washington d C networks and expertise would 342 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: just be very very difficult to find. Okay, If the 343 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: first thing on Eming's wish list was an American CEO, 344 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: the next thing was finding an American tech company to 345 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: form an alliance with and serve as an ally in 346 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: TikTok's campaign to win over Washington. So in December, you 347 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: Mean flies to Seattle for a secret visit with Microsoft 348 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: CEO such An Adela. You Mean and Satya overlap briefly 349 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: during ming short stint at Microsoft, and even though Bye 350 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: Dance and Microsoft made for strange bedfellows, Eming wanted to 351 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: propose a partnership that they could both benefit from. Here's 352 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: my colleague, Dina Bass, She's covered Microsoft for more than 353 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: twenty years. If you're Bye Dance, that you're going to 354 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: be thinking about is how do I find someone that 355 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: is going to create a relationship that helps me with 356 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: my problems with the US government, that's credible with with Congress, 357 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: that's credible with President Trump. And Microsoft is a good 358 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: choice for them because of that. Microsoft didn't have a 359 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: lot of experience in social media, and you Mean saw 360 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: that as a good thing. He thought he could trust 361 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: such An Adela. I think for a Bite Dance perspective, 362 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: they didn't want to work with anyone who could be 363 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: a competitor, and I think that rules out Google because 364 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: of YouTube and google significant social media presence there, Microsoft 365 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 1: has really nothing to speak of in the social media area. 366 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: In return, you mean dangle the promise of storing byte 367 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: dance massive amounts of data with Microsoft's cloud business. This 368 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: meeting hasn't been reported on, but it was important because 369 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: it laid the groundwork for a much bigger discussion about 370 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: Microsoft and TikTok joining forces down the line, and then 371 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: later leaving hopped on a plane for Davos to attend 372 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: the World Economic Forum. It was a personal triumph for Eming, 373 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: who finally got to rub shoulders with the likes of 374 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 1: Sundar Pichai and Cheryl Sandberg. TikTok was a hot topic 375 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: of conversation at Davis that year, although you mean didn't 376 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: headline any big events, other influential people defended TikTok on 377 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: stage four for him. There's another factor though, that I'm 378 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: hearing is I'm meeting with CEOs of Chinese companies that 379 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: are growing. Do they want to be positions in the 380 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: world as a Chinese company or do they want to 381 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: be positioned in the world as a global company. That's 382 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 1: David Solomon, the CEO of Goldman Sachs, talking to Bite 383 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: Dances board member Bill Ford about TikTok's rebranding. It's a 384 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: great point for two reasons. If you take if you 385 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: take Bite Dance million daily active users six fifty or 386 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: TikTok outside the Chinese firewall. And when we talk about 387 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: a lot at the board, is a global internet company 388 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: with Chinese heritage as opposed to a Chinese internet company. 389 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: I think that is exactly right. So the CEO of 390 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: General Atlantic, who's also one of Bite dances biggest investors, 391 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: is on stage pushing the idea that TikTok wasn't a 392 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: Chinese company. He's saying, it's not Chinese, it's global. Here's 393 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: my colleague Chipping. The biggest reason, and maybe the only 394 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: reason people have doubts people can trust trains tech companies 395 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: is that they are from a cone tree that is 396 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: not a democracy. It's the Communist Party. It's the Chinese 397 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: coleman who had a final boss. What can you do 398 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: as a business, You try your best to shake off 399 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: that image. After Davos Ming took his young daughter and 400 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 1: wife who also works at By Dance, on a trip 401 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,239 Speaker 1: throughout Europe. Sources told me that despite his dreams of 402 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: creating a global company, Ming hadn't traveled much for fun 403 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: outside of China. It was Iman's last days to freedom 404 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: before the whole world would change, because just as he 405 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: was indulging in a European getaway, a deadly virus was 406 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: spreading throughout China in what would turn into the fatal 407 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: coronavirus pandemic, killing millions throughout the world. Wuhan, China, ground 408 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 1: zero for the outbreak, now under lockdown. Most of the 409 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: seventeen dead and more than five hundred second are in Wuhan. 410 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: Since Friday, the number of known infections across Asia has 411 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: more than quadrupled. Every mode of transport out of the 412 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: city grind to a halt, claims trains, buses, ferries, and subways. 413 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: China was the first country to go into COVID lockdown. 414 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: So you Mean and his family decided not to go home. Instead, 415 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: they go from their European vacation to California, where you 416 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: Mean meets with his American investors and spend time interviewing 417 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: candidates for the top job at TikTok When it became 418 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: clear that COVID was virtually contained in China, he flew 419 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: back to Beijing, but the virus was overtaking the US 420 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: and Europe. People around the world, including President Trump, are 421 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: blaming China for the pandemic, calling it the China virus 422 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: because it originated there. But in a twist of fate, 423 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: because of COVID, TikTok's business had never been better. People 424 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: were locked in their homes with little to do and 425 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: turned to TikTok as an escape. For the first time, 426 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: adults start downloading TikTok in huge numbers. The search made 427 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: it clear that TikTok wasn't just for teenagers anymore. It 428 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: was a sensation across generations. You Mean felt even more 429 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 1: pressure to hire an American CEO, and this was when 430 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: a former executive from Disney came onto Eman's radar for 431 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: the top job, Kevin Mayer. Sources told me that you 432 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: Mean made a list of the top three candidates and 433 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: Kevin wasn't on it. But you Mean felt he needed 434 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: to move fast to slap an American face on top 435 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: of TikTok. So he rushed to hire Kevin because at 436 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: the very least he looked good on paper. When the 437 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: news broke that Kevin Mayor had been hired, I was 438 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,239 Speaker 1: I think reading Chinese news actually, and it was just 439 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: really hilarious how they just described him as Captain America. 440 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: The reaction was that Kevin is this you know, six foot, 441 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: really polished, really good looking, um and buff, you know 442 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: former football player who graduated from m I t uh so, Yeah, 443 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: he like really ticked all the boxes of the all 444 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: American um male you know business executive. I guess Kevin 445 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 1: had work to Disney for more than twenty years. He 446 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: launched Disney, plus he had a lot of experience in China, 447 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: but he was passed over for the top job at Disney, 448 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: and TikTok was a chance to run another successful global 449 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: company and it came with a hefty paycheck. A TikTok 450 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: spokesperson disputed this characterization. She told me Eming didn't feel 451 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: pressure to hire a CEO because he was not in 452 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: charge of TikTok's day to day operations. They will point 453 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: out that hiring a CEO is hardly an everyday task. 454 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: It's a high level decision, and Meming was notorious for 455 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: aggressively recruiting top executives. As for the current head of TikTok, 456 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: Alex Jew, he sort of fades into the background, his 457 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 1: life's work overshadowed by the fact that he was Chinese 458 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: and that he wasn't able to clean up TikTok's reputation 459 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: in Washington, which is what Eming wanted from him. Here's 460 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: where Ima, the former tech banker, he just wanted, you know, 461 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: as he wanted an executive and charge that was as 462 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: American as it gets. Like Alex Drew, even though he 463 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: had spent a lot of time in the US, was 464 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: still like a Chinese American, right, So they really wanted 465 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: someone who was unquestionably American through and through. But Kevin 466 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: Mayer was in for a hard time. We'll be right back. 467 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: The new TikTok CEO, Kevin Mayer had a harrowing first 468 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: day on the job. It was June one. All over 469 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: the U S black Lives Matter protesters took to the 470 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: streets over the killing of George Floyd, and many of 471 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: them tried to use TikTok to spread their message. But 472 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: there was a problem because TikTok videos with Black Lives 473 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: Matter and George Floyd hashtags got little to no views. 474 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: People were furious they were trying to speak out against 475 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: racism and finding the self silenced. I was very, very, 476 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: very upset. There's so some of the other creators I know, 477 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: mostly people of color, We were all talking about it, 478 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: just because it was upsetting to see that the platform 479 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: was like where we felt like we could be open 480 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: and stuff could would suppress something like that, something so massive. 481 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: That's Darius Jackson, a nineteen year old who spends about 482 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: four hours a day on TikTok. He says TikTok issued 483 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: an apology. They said they weren't censoring Black Lives Matter videos, 484 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: that it was a technical glitch, But Darius and many 485 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: other TikTok ER's didn't buy it. It felt like they 486 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: were apologizing because they were caught, not because they were 487 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: apologizing because they felt bad about it. Censorship like this 488 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,959 Speaker 1: is wrong. It could uh mess up the perception of 489 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: what's truly going on or how we truly feel about 490 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: certain things, you know. These accusations of political censorship resurfaced 491 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: deep fears about TikTok that many people had been harboring 492 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: for years, that China might be manipulating content to influence 493 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: the world view of Americans. We spoke to a former 494 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: TikTok employee, Chu June Chin. He helped TikTok set up 495 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: operations in Southeast Asia and train people on content moderation, 496 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: so we became somewhat of an expert on how TikTok 497 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: sensors videos. He says that for TikTok, censorship was generally 498 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: a feature, not a bug. Woman's are gonna industry. We 499 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: don't allow national leaders or political figures to appear in 500 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,479 Speaker 1: videos from any country. It's not only China, but in 501 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: any country we operate, at least during my stay. TikTok 502 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: is very neutral. It never involves itself in politics. It 503 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: positions itself as a peer entertainment platform. It's not like Facebook, 504 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: which constantly influences the US elections. On Facebook, you go okay, 505 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: so they dig at Facebook aside. He said it was 506 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: policy at TikTok to steer clear from controversy at least 507 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: when it comes to our rules about censorship, we tend 508 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: to be pretty conservative. We take down anything that seems 509 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: sensitive and we don't touch politics. I saw this firsthand 510 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: when I was living in Hong Kong and covering the 511 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: massive pro democracy protests against China and the Hong Kong government. 512 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: I went out on the street with a gas mask 513 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: in one hand and my phone and the other. Both 514 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: journalists and protesters were actively documenting the tear gas, water 515 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: cannons and marches online, and the protesters I spoke to 516 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: lived on social media on Twitter, Facebook, WhatsApp, and Telegram. 517 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: But when I opened up TikTok and searched for Hong Kong, 518 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: I got zilch no protest content at all. Instead, under 519 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: the Hong Kong hashtag, I saw videos of the city 520 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: skyline and girls dancing at tourist destinations. We asked a 521 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: few of the Hong Kong protesters about this, say so, 522 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: I think TikTok must be censoring and scrutinizing videos because 523 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: China is sensitive to all the political content. They want 524 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: to maintain the social and political stability in the country. 525 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: If the Chinese government wants to get your user information, 526 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,719 Speaker 1: they will find a way to get it. These are 527 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: young activists who protested against China's increasingly restrictive control over 528 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: Hong Kong. They didn't want to give us their full names. 529 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: Amy is twenty and Sam's twenty two because TikTok is 530 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: funded by a Chinese company, there has to be concerned 531 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: in doubt regarding the data safety. There are concerns that 532 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: TikTok transfers user information to mainland China. I'm afraid to 533 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: use it because TikTok is owned by a Chinese company 534 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: and the Chinese government can use the app as a 535 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: tool to track my location. I'm worried that they can 536 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: go after me, so I have to protect my personal 537 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: safety and to leave the app. I went download TikTok again. 538 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: The reason why these young people sound so afraid is 539 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: because the threat to them is not theoretical. In Hong Kong, 540 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: dozens of teens have been arrested for the things they've 541 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: said online. Many of the protesters were afraid of posting 542 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: on TikTok, but there was also something else going on. 543 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: You look on those hashtags and TikTok and there was 544 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: just a total silence. That's Daniel Sinclair. He's an independent 545 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: researcher who studies TikTok. As an experiment, he downloaded some 546 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: Hong Kong protest videos from the Internet and tried posting 547 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: them on TikTok. But in instances where I had tested 548 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: weeks later after they posted that um it was not 549 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: going through, or if it was going through, it would 550 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: take hours days. That's something that doesn't happen to other 551 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: social media in the US, to Twitter, to Facebook. At 552 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: the heart was this ability for TikTok to moderate and 553 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: gate content before it ever reached users. A TikTok spokesperson 554 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: told me the app wasn't censoring videos about Hong Kong, 555 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: and months later they shut down the app in Hong 556 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: Kong entirely. TikTok has faced many censorship allegations over the 557 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: years that they suppressed videos of fat people, queer people, 558 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: people who have spoken out about the Chinese government, and 559 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: TikTok's answer to these accusations has been, yes, we used 560 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: to take a blunt approach to moderation. They also previously 561 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: admitted to pushing down content that promoted conflict, but they 562 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: say that's changed. Their spokesperson gave us a statement, we 563 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: continually evolve our policies and approach to protect against emerging 564 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: harmful content, and this is where TikTok reverse course. After 565 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter activists accused the platform of censorship, TikTok 566 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: started promoting protest videos. In the span of a few months, 567 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: gen z activism exploded, giving rise to the term TikTok 568 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: to vist. It didn't take long for teens to realize 569 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: they could use TikTok not just to talk about politics, 570 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: but to organize on the platform. I recommend all of 571 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: those of us that want to see this nineteen thousand 572 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: seat auditorium barely filled or completely empty, go reserve tickets 573 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: now and leave him standing there alone on the stage. 574 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: What do you say, guys? Donald Trump is having a 575 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: rally next week and it's free. So I got two 576 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 1: tickets and I just verified it too, so that means 577 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: there's gonna be at least two empty spots. Guys, that's awful. 578 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: Oh my god. I'm just registered for Trump's rally and 579 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to not go. The chain succeeded in 580 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: getting Trump's attention in a big way. Here's Darius Jackson, 581 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: the nineteen year old we heard from earlier. Donald Trump 582 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: is not very well liked on that app, especially so 583 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: if enough people own that app saying something or just 584 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: doing like one what it took maybe three to five 585 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: minutes to sign up for a seat like that's three 586 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: to five minutes out of your day, like we had 587 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 1: the time the TikTok users had embarrassed the president. TikTok 588 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: users may well be President Trump's latest adversary. Thousands of 589 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: people who'd gotten tickets online didn't show up. Trump was 590 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 1: said to be furious. Was President Trump's fiasco of a 591 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: rally and Tulsa sabotage by an army of teenagers. Some 592 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: officials in the Trump administration saw this as an opening. 593 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: They were looking for a way to punish China for 594 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: the global spread of coronavirus. Here's Trump talking to TV 595 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: host Gretave Ancestra. In Secretary Pompeo was talked about possibly 596 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 1: banning TikTok in this country. China is something we're looking at. Yes, 597 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: why why would you ban it? Well, it's a big 598 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: business China. Look what happened with China with this virus. 599 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: What they've done to this country and to the entire 600 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:49,399 Speaker 1: world is disgraceful, and we are looking at numerous different things. 601 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: TikTok's one of them. One of many people told me 602 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 1: that when the news got back to ye Ming, he 603 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,919 Speaker 1: was in the middle of eating breakfast at his home 604 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: in Beijing. A friends and over a link to the news, 605 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 1: and Yeming was confused. He said, China virus. What did 606 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: the coronavirus have to do with TikTok? It was bizarre 607 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 1: to target an app like TikTok as a way to 608 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: get back at China for the pandemic, But that's exactly 609 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: what Trump said he would do. And then a few 610 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 1: weeks later, right as Trump was about to board his helicopter, 611 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: We're looking at TikTok. We may be banning TikTok, we 612 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: might be doing some other things. Are a couple of options. 613 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: That's next time on the season finale of Foundering. Foundering 614 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: is hosted by me Shelley Banjo. Sean Wyn is our 615 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: executive producer. Raymondo is our audio engineer. Molly Nugent is 616 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 1: our associate producer. Additional reporting by Tom Giles, Josh Bruce, 617 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: Team Chipping Huang, Felix Tam and Dina Bass. Production helped 618 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,439 Speaker 1: from Michael Tobin and Bertie Ford. Special thanks to Edwin 619 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: Chan and Davey Kim. Our story editors are Mark Million, 620 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: Anne vander May, and Alistair Barr. Francesca Levi is the 621 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: head of Bloomberg Podcasts. Be Sure to subscribe, and if 622 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: you like our show, leave a review. Most importantly, tell 623 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: your friends see you next time.