Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season three thirteen, Episode
Speaker 1: two of ESAI Guys Day production of iHeartRadio. This is
Speaker 1: a podcast where we take a deep dive into America's
Speaker 1: share consciousness. And it is Tuesday, November fourteenth, twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean National seatbelt Day, buckle up, buttercup or
Speaker 2: chuckle fuck or whatever the Elon musk fucking chat thing
Speaker 2: wanted you to say. Also, World Diabetes Day, National Pickle Day,
Speaker 2: National Spicy guacamoly Day. I don't know if there's one
Speaker 2: for regular guak and one for the real ones. Oh,
Speaker 2: you're a little bit.
Speaker 1: Of hot key, like, there's like multiple national guacamole Days.
Speaker 2: Just yeah, I love wackamole.
Speaker 1: It's a great sport. Yeah. Yeah. We have been lobbying
Speaker 1: to get it into the Olympics for a long time.
Speaker 2: Family PJ Day is that's just I guess for families
Speaker 2: to just put them put on your favorite pajamas and
Speaker 2: have a little party. Yeah, I guess, because it's getting cold. Sure, Sure,
Speaker 2: I don't have.
Speaker 1: Any open auditions for the Christian Nightmares Twitter threat. I
Speaker 1: feel like family Pajamas with my family has matching pajamas.
Speaker 1: They're pretty cute, good for you, good, feel good for you,
Speaker 1: good for you. My name is Jack O'Brien aka. I
Speaker 1: always feel like my toilet ski bd, but I don't
Speaker 1: know what that means. Oh or I always feel like
Speaker 1: my wife is judging me, and I swore it wasn't.
Speaker 3: P oh.
Speaker 1: I always feel like my wife is judging me, but
Speaker 1: I said it whistler p oh. That is courtesy of Connie.
Speaker 1: We are on the discord. I am so sorry for
Speaker 1: not knowing how to pronounce that, but the ak was
Speaker 1: on point. I'm thrilled to be joined as always by
Speaker 1: my co host, mister Miles Gras.
Speaker 2: Miles Grave, just keep it as simple. The Lord of
Speaker 2: Lankorsham and Black and Mese experimental artist, your boy Kusama.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on this day
Speaker 2: of day.
Speaker 1: It was a Tuesday. Yeah, it's Tuesday. It's Tuesday. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, Garfield had some things to say about Mondays,
Speaker 1: But what about Tuesdays? Am I right with Heathcliff. We
Speaker 1: need somebody to step up and talk about how Tuesday?
Speaker 2: Did Kathy have something to say about Tuesdays?
Speaker 1: Am I right? Well, Miles, we are thrilled to be
Speaker 1: joined in our third seat by an award winning staff
Speaker 1: writer for Slate whose work focuses on identity and religion,
Speaker 1: and who has been doing invaluable reporting on what is
Speaker 1: happening in Israel right now. He's appeared on CNN, NPR,
Speaker 1: most importantly this show, He's been featured in The New
Speaker 1: York Post, ad Week, God, the Huffing It Post. Please
Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. Ay Man, it's my.
Speaker 4: I said, what's happening, Welcome Lake so long bro mmmmmmmmm,
Speaker 4: I know, I know, man, I know, we were just talking.
Speaker 2: I was like, I was like, it's been a minute,
Speaker 2: and I was like, we got to have you back.
Speaker 2: And I ship is so fucking horrible wherever you look.
Speaker 2: And I know, with the work that you do, having
Speaker 2: such proximity to what's happening and Gaza and the West
Speaker 2: Bank and everything, I know it's very difficult. So like, honestly,
Speaker 2: I really we really appreciate it coming on because it's
Speaker 2: not easy.
Speaker 3: But I'm really glad you guys aren't afraid to talk
Speaker 3: about it. I've been listening to the show and you
Speaker 3: guys have had some of the best critiques, responses and
Speaker 3: the most fiery rhetoric. So shout out to you guys
Speaker 3: for for keeping it up and for inviting me for real.
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's just you, yeah, man. And and again
Speaker 2: I think it's also important, like we've had, you know,
Speaker 2: like guest so to speak about what's been going on.
Speaker 2: But I think also one thing we've talked about really
Speaker 2: consistently is how the media is portraying things and how
Speaker 2: consent is being manufactured for some really grizzly awful things
Speaker 2: we do. You want to call it genocide, ethnic cleansing,
Speaker 2: war crimes, whatever, pick pick one. So I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: having your insight today is also going to be really
Speaker 2: invaluable for not just us but everybody listening. So again, man,
Speaker 2: I know it's thank you. Yeah, I know how difficult
Speaker 2: it is to talk about this stuff too, but honestly,
Speaker 2: we just yeah, we're glad to have you, man, We're glad.
Speaker 3: To have I've got it. I've got one check, I've
Speaker 3: got one in the chamber already. So just let me know.
Speaker 3: First of all, let me answer your first question. I
Speaker 3: condemned Hamas.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, okay, uh huh oh good, I'm glad you
Speaker 1: saw that in the dock. But does he condemn.
Speaker 2: Hamas to condemn them. Okay, Now it's a weird.
Speaker 1: Because it sounds like I'm coming back and like saying
Speaker 1: that is a response. But that was the first thing
Speaker 1: written in the dock. But do you sir? However, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I haven't said anything yet. However, do you you, sir?
Speaker 3: What's really It's crazy? It's been crazy watching It's been
Speaker 3: crazy watching the news because you know, the contrary to
Speaker 3: what most people say, I think we still are in
Speaker 3: the golden age of media. There are still there are
Speaker 3: so many amazing reporters who are doing such amazing work.
Speaker 3: It's just incredible the kind of work that's coming out
Speaker 3: right now. However, at the same time, there are some
Speaker 3: of the worst work. But anyways, what I'm trying to
Speaker 3: say is that it's people who are working journalism now
Speaker 3: know the game. They know how to keep their skepticism,
Speaker 3: they know how to draw out the story in an
Speaker 3: interesting way. What I can't understand is how when it
Speaker 3: comes to just this one thing, whenever it comes to Palestine,
Speaker 3: everybody forgets all their training. It's like we're starting from
Speaker 3: scratch just now. It just drives me nuts seeing so
Speaker 3: many people make so many mistakes taking the Israeli militaries
Speaker 3: narrative as fact and casting doubt and shadow into anything
Speaker 3: on the like on the other side, regardless of who
Speaker 3: it's coming from, which to me is like you guys,
Speaker 3: see what you're doing, right, but you see it everywhere
Speaker 3: and it's been driving me nuts.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is it a mistake at that point? Like is
Speaker 1: it or is it just kind of their marching orders
Speaker 1: and what they think they have to do like at
Speaker 1: this point, you know, but yeah, it's a the fucking
Speaker 1: nightmare out there. Before we get into all of it,
Speaker 1: we do like to get to know our guests a
Speaker 1: little bit better and ask you, what is something from
Speaker 1: your search history that's revealing about who you are?
Speaker 3: Yeah? So everything in my search history right now is
Speaker 3: from just typing in the names of articles and wayback
Speaker 3: machine because I do not have subscriptions to things. So
Speaker 3: what I do is I use proxies to get around
Speaker 3: pay walls to read everything from Herot's to The New
Speaker 3: York Times to everything I know. The journalists didn't say
Speaker 3: that subscribes to Slate Plus and all that.
Speaker 1: You're the reason why I subscribed to Slate Plus.
Speaker 3: So I'm I'm on there, dude.
Speaker 2: I got I got subscribed. I subscribed twice to sleep
Speaker 2: how much? How much? With the vision? But now I
Speaker 2: get that, dude, that sound like whenever I see it,
Speaker 2: I'm like, please be an archive fucking post of this article.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, because I'm not giving money the Wall
Speaker 2: Street Journal to find out about how workers are wrong
Speaker 2: about everything. Yeah, it's it's out there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, every everything in my sorry twister right now is
Speaker 3: either that or trying to like convert times, like it's
Speaker 3: it's so hard to keep track of, like what time
Speaker 3: everything is happening because guys, the time London time, every
Speaker 3: every single spot has its own right time, and I
Speaker 3: really need that to stop.
Speaker 2: I need to.
Speaker 3: I needed like some kind of uniform time please.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no matter what it's like, Yo, it's noon, it's like,
Speaker 2: but if it's actually three a m. For us? No, man,
Speaker 2: we're doing one clock for new rule.
Speaker 1: No time zones everywhere, there are people who are everywhere
Speaker 1: to just put in parentheses New York time zone please.
Speaker 2: Oh right right right? Yeah yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: I feel like people whould get used to that. Just
Speaker 1: be like, what time is it here? Oh, it's it's
Speaker 1: always the same time. It's always the same time, but
Speaker 1: here it's dark out when it's three pm. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Time zones were invented for trains. We're
Speaker 1: over that shit, We're not like, well how about that
Speaker 1: over here? It's a little bit different, right, feel I
Speaker 1: feel like I don't know, has anybody ever pitched that
Speaker 1: I could? Like, I bet there's a think piece worth
Speaker 1: writing about, like if there was a uniform time, things
Speaker 1: would actually run more efficiently, right, who knows though?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Oh and if you want to have a funnier one.
Speaker 3: So in my story's history, there's a whole block around
Speaker 3: like five o'clock where it goes rainbow wail, octopus, octopus, shark, shark. Sure, yeah,
Speaker 3: of course. So this was my son pointing at the
Speaker 3: screen and wanting to summon things like it was magic
Speaker 3: and yeah, oh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, show up.
Speaker 1: They call it chrome, My kids call it Can we
Speaker 1: do Chrome? I'm just like, all right, let's do Chrome,
Speaker 1: And they just tell me what to search and it's
Speaker 1: just Google Image search history.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I feel like for them it's like magic
Speaker 3: school Bus, like we're making things appear in there.
Speaker 1: Right, Magic school bus still goes too, Like they they
Speaker 1: really we got a recent bedtime story from the like
Speaker 1: old school Magic School Bus days, and they are They're
Speaker 1: into it. They're referencing various characters. They're referencing like little
Speaker 1: bit jokes for a minute, So shout out to the
Speaker 1: Magic school Bus. Still holding up?
Speaker 2: You know, did you show them the nineteen eighty seven
Speaker 2: hit film Innerspace.
Speaker 1: No, we haven't done Interspace yet. I need to put
Speaker 1: that on my toe to watch that ship.
Speaker 2: I remember that was like when I saw the Magic
Speaker 2: School Bus when they win the body, I'm like, bro,
Speaker 2: this is inner space. I saw this shit when I
Speaker 2: was a kid, like so I felt that they were
Speaker 2: ripping off innerspace when they would go inside the body.
Speaker 2: But anyway, seen it, seen.
Speaker 1: This, Yeah, that's fun. Yeah. Because my one son is
Speaker 1: like obsessed with the digestive system because I think he
Speaker 1: recognizes that it ends up in Pooh, but like from
Speaker 1: very early age, he like first thing he wants to
Speaker 1: see what if he like gets around Google image search
Speaker 1: or you know, an encyclopedia, he's looking up like some animals.
Speaker 1: Digestive system is weird, so similar similar searches, but it
Speaker 1: would just be octopus digestive system, unicorn digestive system, right,
Speaker 1: how and that's how Rainbow Sherbert is made.
Speaker 2: You know, like Campbell's got like multiple stomachs. Doesn't know
Speaker 2: about that ship.
Speaker 1: Yet, I don't think so fucking blows mind man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: told you more on the parenting stuff innerspace and Cammell's
Speaker 1: multiple nothing.
Speaker 2: To do with parenting, just like my weird stoner memory.
Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, you want this one to inner space.
Speaker 2: You gave me my favorite books that star Wars, like
Speaker 2: technical Technical Manual Yeah, technical man, Yeah, he's stall mend
Speaker 2: that heavy. Yeah.
Speaker 1: What uh? What is something you think is overrated?
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say cousins say cousins are overrated. Wow, Yo,
Speaker 3: here's why. Here's why. I have cousins in Egypt, and
Speaker 3: I told them I'm coming, and so far they've given
Speaker 3: me like they've asked your three iPhones, they've asked jeans,
Speaker 3: they got your boots. I love my cousins and I'm
Speaker 3: gonna try my hardest to get him everything.
Speaker 2: But like god damn, yeah yo, but you're what you
Speaker 2: over there?
Speaker 3: Bro. I know I'm gonna getting iPhone fourteen's and just
Speaker 3: be like this one just came out.
Speaker 2: Trust me, Bro, I'll send you. You can have my I got.
Speaker 2: I'm about to I think I have to switch mine now.
Speaker 2: I'm like, yo, I'll send you wine off the strength
Speaker 2: you picture like I was in a case. Shit looked clean, you.
Speaker 1: Know what I mean.
Speaker 3: My cousin will, My cousin will be ever grateful. I'll
Speaker 3: tell you that.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, well we'll talk after.
Speaker 1: But I would give you mine because I'm about to upgrade.
Speaker 1: But mine is the one that gives your balls radiation
Speaker 1: when you put it in your.
Speaker 2: Poll on twelve yeah, twelve yeah, yeah, Hey, it's fine.
Speaker 2: It's a low level of radiation.
Speaker 1: Radioactive, radioactive.
Speaker 2: I remember like in Japan, my cousins always asked for vitamins.
Speaker 1: That's wild.
Speaker 3: Yeah, socials, that's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like, we don't have supplements like that out here.
Speaker 2: And they're like, yo, you give me. I was like,
Speaker 2: what for real, go to Trader Joe somewhere, bring up
Speaker 2: big ass thing, a fucking vitamin scene ship. People are like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah.
Speaker 1: You're like, I'll get you the newest any S game.
Speaker 1: They're like yeah, they're like we're on PlayStation six. Man,
Speaker 1: it's like nine and we're on the PlayStation. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I won't even have that ship till twenty eight, twenty
Speaker 2: twenty eight.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're headed the Egypt.
Speaker 3: I'm headed to Egypt in a month for my daughter's
Speaker 3: first birthday. We went to Egypt for my son's first birthday,
Speaker 3: and so we got to introduce from the family. And
Speaker 3: I think it's really important to like take somebody when
Speaker 3: they're really really young. So I think I feel a
Speaker 3: little bit, you know, tied to it take some pictures.
Speaker 3: I met the Pyramids on the Nile'll do all that
Speaker 3: fun stuff. I mean, this is part of the reason
Speaker 3: why I'm a photographer in the first place. So I
Speaker 3: picked up photography after like going through all of my
Speaker 3: family's old photos and seeing all these pictures of myself
Speaker 3: being young, family in Egypt that I hadn't seen in
Speaker 3: a long time, and I remember feeling like this was
Speaker 3: the most important, the most valuable thing I have in
Speaker 3: my whole family, Like I want these pictures. And so
Speaker 3: I picked up photography, thinking I need to document everything,
Speaker 3: like everything is valuable, and now that I have a kid,
Speaker 3: like number one on every single list is just document, document, document,
Speaker 3: I'm taking a crazy amount of photos. I'm like really
Speaker 3: going hard on that end. And so we did it
Speaker 3: for the first kid. Now we got to do it
Speaker 3: for the second kid. Pictures Like literally the first thing
Speaker 3: I do when I go to anybody's house is I
Speaker 3: dump my baby on their lap and say, all right,
Speaker 3: smile taking a.
Speaker 2: Picture like you you might be famous. I don't want
Speaker 2: to tell my kids like they held you this baby.
Speaker 3: It makes a difference, man, Like I remember like seeing
Speaker 3: all these pictures and being excited being like, who's that
Speaker 3: holding me? Like who is this I'm not don't even
Speaker 3: know who this person is. And my mom will be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's your cousin. Yeah he lived in Japan for a while.
Speaker 3: Oh that's your aunt. Yeah, she taught me English when
Speaker 3: I was a little kid. Like all that stuff made
Speaker 3: me feel so much more real. And so when I
Speaker 3: got to see them for the first time when I
Speaker 3: started going to Egypt with my own money, when I
Speaker 3: got a job, I was trying to go like at
Speaker 3: least every year, and meeting those people felt so much
Speaker 3: more exciting, Like I felt connected to them, and I
Speaker 3: recognized streets and like, I'm telling you, this box that
Speaker 3: my mom gave me a photos is just like a
Speaker 3: gigantic cardboard box just loose photos thrown into it, and
Speaker 3: so just that trevsure trove and going in and discovering
Speaker 3: and trying to match up which photos are taking a
Speaker 3: which camera because of the shape of the print. Everything
Speaker 3: has been Oh wow, okay, like one of the most
Speaker 3: enjoyable things I have ever resent in my life. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I just wanted to be able to recreate that from
Speaker 3: my kids.
Speaker 2: That's like, because we live in such an era of
Speaker 2: like digital photography and not printing shit anymore, and like
Speaker 2: I so so many memories are like just having these
Speaker 2: like same like forty photos in my house, Like growing up,
Speaker 2: Thata was like, yeah, that's my grandma. Yeah, that's my
Speaker 2: great grandma or whatever that you kind of have these
Speaker 2: reminders and to your point, like asking questions because that
Speaker 2: actually helps your parents, like help my parents like jar
Speaker 2: their job there memory memory, and then actually begin sharing
Speaker 2: things that are that are a little bit further like hey,
Speaker 2: your grandmother was you know, she was a fantastic woman.
Speaker 2: We're like, oh shit, oh okay, this is this is
Speaker 2: my uncle. He only talked in rhyme because when they
Speaker 2: were kids, somebody threw a bullet in the fireplace and
Speaker 2: it hit him in his head. And now he can
Speaker 2: only speak in rhymes. Yeah, like shit like that where
Speaker 2: my grandfather was like, let me tell you about him. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I definitely like pictures are such a yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: they're like it's it's so wild, like because now we
Speaker 2: can take pictures like at will. It's wild that we
Speaker 2: don't cherish them the same way we did when we
Speaker 2: were printing film. So yeah, you really got to lean
Speaker 2: into having that ship printed for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's a lot of spots that still do
Speaker 3: it for super cheap, Like I use my local CBS
Speaker 3: because they have like a printer and so I'll just
Speaker 3: like send them a batch of like one hundred of
Speaker 3: my favorite ones.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I do whatever at the at the end of every
Speaker 3: year when I have like a sale on Black Friday
Speaker 3: or oh it's coming up. But yeah, I'm doing that
Speaker 3: every single year just because I love having the physical copy. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and I like making little photo albums and keeping them
Speaker 3: out like on the countertop to so the kids can
Speaker 3: explore it, because now that they're getting older they love
Speaker 3: to flip through it too.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But also you know, it's it's special to me to
Speaker 3: have like a little book of being like this is
Speaker 3: your first year alive, you know, yeah that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: God, damn, I should really do that.
Speaker 3: I just gift ideas Christmas is coming up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like all the like conscientious like people I know,
Speaker 1: like people who are just like very mindful, like you
Speaker 1: know my sister or like, you know, we we have
Speaker 1: these friends. They always have like these photograph books of
Speaker 1: like this was our trip to this place and this
Speaker 1: was you know, like they just and it's so beautiful.
Speaker 1: And every time I'm like many doing that yesterday, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I never get myself to do it.
Speaker 2: And you know, you probably got so many photos on
Speaker 2: the phone and ship easy. Just got to go through it, right.
Speaker 1: I love going back through the picture. But there's also
Speaker 1: something unnerving when I'm like, I don't remember them looking
Speaker 1: like this, Like I'm taking the picture, I'm talking to them.
Speaker 1: I don't remember this interaction. I don't remember them ever
Speaker 1: sounding like that, because you just it's so it's just
Speaker 1: you know, you you see them every single day like constantly,
Speaker 1: and they're all you think about. And so yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's weird.
Speaker 3: You're your dad's.
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. What is something you think is underrated?
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say cousins.
Speaker 2: Go on.
Speaker 3: You know, after after saying that, I felt, I felt
Speaker 3: really bad because I do love my cousins. Of course,
Speaker 3: of course, like they they're you know, they can't like
Speaker 3: afford because like the different economies is in the fucking
Speaker 3: ship hole right now. So what they're gonna do to
Speaker 3: pay me back is like set up trips for me
Speaker 3: and my family. So one of them is going to
Speaker 3: set up like a Nile cruise for us. The other
Speaker 3: one is going to set up like maybe a backpacking
Speaker 3: trip somewhere. Like they're also going to pick us up
Speaker 3: from the airport, take care of us, pampa us, like
Speaker 3: they do that every trip. Regardless, they don't even do
Speaker 3: it for the gifts. It's just that the gifts for
Speaker 3: me is like a way to pay them back and
Speaker 3: show appreciation. So yeah, no, I really should be talking
Speaker 3: about these cousins, man. They're really like the reason.
Speaker 1: Why I go.
Speaker 2: And I know they listen. Yeah, yeah, shout out to
Speaker 2: your yea yeah yeah, they don't speak anyone, they're listening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, one listeners. Amazing. All right, let's take a
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and we'll come back and
Speaker 1: we'll get into it. We'll be right back, and we're back.
Speaker 2: We are, And.
Speaker 1: Since October seventh, we've been we've been talking about the
Speaker 1: perplexing way the media has been has been covering this,
Speaker 1: the discounting to the lives of Palestinian people, innocent innocent
Speaker 1: Palestinian people and children, but just generally just the rules
Speaker 1: of engagement seem to have changed kind of in the
Speaker 1: in the mainstream media. But aiman you know, you are
Speaker 1: seeing seeing this happening, and you know, as a member
Speaker 1: of the media, like covering, I'm just curious to get
Speaker 1: your perspective on like what what what has been happening?
Speaker 1: What are you seeing behind the scenes, And then like
Speaker 1: how's that affecting how we're hearing about or not hearing
Speaker 1: about what's happening in Israel?
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, No, this is a media literacy is everything
Speaker 3: these days because because it's equally important to create good
Speaker 3: journalism as it is for the audience to know how
Speaker 3: to read and interpret like good journalism. So what I
Speaker 3: mean is this right. I'm really really upset by the
Speaker 3: way that I have like younger siblings a lot, Like
Speaker 3: my wife's siblings are like much younger than she is.
Speaker 3: So I have one that just graduated high school, another
Speaker 3: one who's in college, and you know, they get all
Speaker 3: of their news from social media. They only know what's
Speaker 3: going on through TikTok and through Instagram, And I feel
Speaker 3: like a lot of people don't really know how to
Speaker 3: distinguish between people just posting things opinion news clips of
Speaker 3: commentators from the actual journalism, which are like first hand
Speaker 3: accounts people on the ground doing journalism. And it's like
Speaker 3: equivocating between being like an activist talking about out what's
Speaker 3: happening and being a journalist and trying to report the
Speaker 3: facts as they are has been driving me nuts. So
Speaker 3: there's two things happening when we think about how the
Speaker 3: media has been like covering this. On the one hand,
Speaker 3: I'm seeing so much misinformation and disinformation spreading like crazy
Speaker 3: on social media. And because everybody's in their own little
Speaker 3: social media bubble, what people on either side are, you know,
Speaker 3: And in this case there's a lot more than just
Speaker 3: two sides. But anybody who's consuming media on social media
Speaker 3: right now are getting just like this fire hose of information,
Speaker 3: and some of it's real and some of it's not,
Speaker 3: and some of it's made up, and some of it's
Speaker 3: like from ten years ago, repackaged to look like it
Speaker 3: was just show yesterday, right, And so you have people
Speaker 3: who are Zionist and sympathetic with you know, the IDF
Speaker 3: and what they're doing right now to secure Israel, who
Speaker 3: are like sharing these videos of like people in body
Speaker 3: bags who are wrapped in the white like we've been
Speaker 3: seeing of from Gaza, who are getting up to check
Speaker 3: their phones, you know, because it's like actually a clip
Speaker 3: from a protest in Lebanon, you know, or something like that,
Speaker 3: but that clip is being repackaged and shared as you know,
Speaker 3: evidence of Hamess making up casualties and that the IDEF
Speaker 3: is pure hearted and pure intention. But on the other end,
Speaker 3: there was a viral clip that went viral, uh maybe
Speaker 3: two days ago that supposedly showed like Apache helicopters shooting
Speaker 3: Israelis who were fleeing from their lives when they came
Speaker 3: in with those paragliders at the at the music festival,
Speaker 3: which is also like you know, repackaged. I think it
Speaker 3: was from like the two or three days afterwards when
Speaker 3: that clip, when those clips were shot and published by
Speaker 3: the IDF showing their attack helicopters attacking militants who were
Speaker 3: trying to either flee or take more ground than in Israel.
Speaker 3: And so those are two examples.
Speaker 1: But they were being passaged to say that this was
Speaker 1: Israel shooting, right.
Speaker 3: They were saying, Yeah, the reason why the casualty the
Speaker 3: numbers were so high is because the Israelis were also
Speaker 3: shooting everybody. Yeah, but there's also you know, I should
Speaker 3: also cavey out there. There is like a few kinds.
Speaker 3: There's a few eyewitness testimonies of survivors in the kabbutz
Speaker 3: who talked about how they were when they were being
Speaker 3: taken hostage that Israeli soldier showed up and just started
Speaker 3: spring bullets and hit some of their own people. This
Speaker 3: is that witness testimony. You can read it about it
Speaker 3: on Harriet's But at the same time, the role that
Speaker 3: the journalist has to play is to find primary sources
Speaker 3: and report it out. And the way that so many
Speaker 3: people at prominent outlets that have a humongous responsibility and
Speaker 3: outsized responsibility to tell the truth in this in this
Speaker 3: particular war where information like this is kind of just
Speaker 3: going crazy. This flying over our heads has been catastrophic.
Speaker 3: A good example is right after the beginning of the war,
Speaker 3: the is the Palestinian ambassador for the PA for London,
Speaker 3: was for England, was being interviewed by the BBC and
Speaker 3: he just talked about how he lost like seven family
Speaker 3: members in an Israeli bombardment. And this guy, you can tell,
Speaker 3: was being super stoic. He looked like he was just
Speaker 3: crying because he just found this out and he's on
Speaker 3: the news ready to talk about what's happening. And the
Speaker 3: presenter asked him to condemn ha mess like immediately after
Speaker 3: he shared that he lost seven family members. And this
Speaker 3: callousness goes beyond what a reporter ought to do. You know,
Speaker 3: we should be asking people about what they see, what
Speaker 3: they feel, trying to get primary sources to tell us
Speaker 3: something about what's happening in front of them. Asking somebody
Speaker 3: who has a wealth of knowledge about being an ambassador
Speaker 3: for the PA, not Hames, which is PAS, they run
Speaker 3: the West Bank, Hames Ruse, the Gossam. This person is
Speaker 3: an ambassador for them, so he he's also lost family
Speaker 3: to the bombardment. He's in a unique position to talk
Speaker 3: about what's happening from his perspective. But this person who
Speaker 3: was interviewing him, this journalist was asking about something that
Speaker 3: he's disconnected to a and was trying to make a
Speaker 3: moral argument with this person, and that to me felt like,
Speaker 3: I don't know, I was disappointed. I was like, you
Speaker 3: know how to do this, Like this is your job.
Speaker 3: You don't have any problems doing this with any other subject.
Speaker 3: Why is it when we come to talking about Palestine
Speaker 3: and talking to Palestinians, we skip the part where we're
Speaker 3: supposed to interrogate how they're experiencing the world, and we
Speaker 3: skip to, well, how do we get that? How do
Speaker 3: we hold them accountable for what the other side is saying?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: You don't see that when it comes to those same
Speaker 3: people interviewing Israeli ambassadors or Israeli prime ministers. When they
Speaker 3: talk to their own people, they say, we are going
Speaker 3: to flatten Palestine, we are going to eradicate Hames and
Speaker 3: all of its supporters, and they use a lot of
Speaker 3: this genocidal rhetoric and they talk about having a second Nekba.
Speaker 3: Ministers in the current Israeli government talk this way. But
Speaker 3: when they come on to do these interviews, they asked them, well,
Speaker 3: where were you on October seven? Yeah, how are you
Speaker 3: affected by this tragedy? Which are you know, I'm not.
Speaker 3: I'm not here to like browbeat these people for doing
Speaker 3: their job, because those are good questions to ask people
Speaker 3: who are going through this and that suffering is real, right,
Speaker 3: But where is that when we're talking to Palestinian sources.
Speaker 3: Just today, the New York Times put out a piece
Speaker 3: and their incredible podcast, The Daily not as good as
Speaker 3: the dailies like guess, but you know, if you have
Speaker 3: extra time, you can probably artists and a lot of
Speaker 3: people might think they can. First Weekend First Thanks. I
Speaker 3: was going to say I was gonna make that point,
Speaker 3: but you know they were. They did this whole episode
Speaker 3: where they talked to God, to gods and doctors, doctors
Speaker 3: who are in these hospitals who are operating, and the
Speaker 3: host asked one of them, well, the idef is saying
Speaker 3: that Hamas is doing X y Z in these hospitals,
Speaker 3: like what are you seeing? Which is like a good
Speaker 3: question to ask. But the people who are just being
Speaker 3: constantly asked to take these political arguments that one side
Speaker 3: is making in it and trying to rationalize them and
Speaker 3: trying to breathe air and to them and give oxygen
Speaker 3: to them. The guy had a meltdown man. He freaked out.
Speaker 3: He was like, Yo, we are having to choose which
Speaker 3: kids die and which kids live. We don't have enough
Speaker 3: resources to give kids who need amputations any kind of anesthesia,
Speaker 3: so they are awake and while we're hacking off their
Speaker 3: body parts, like you know, the the trauma in this
Speaker 3: guy's voice when he was like, why the hell are
Speaker 3: you asking me about ha Mesz right now? Was I
Speaker 3: think was incredibly emblematic of the what we've done to
Speaker 3: these people, you know, by flattening them as being like
Speaker 3: this of response to Hames. These people are people, man.
Speaker 3: So I would love to see the media make a
Speaker 3: better effort at exercising just basic journalism by asking people
Speaker 3: about what they see and where they're at, versus trying
Speaker 3: to turn everything into a back and forth.
Speaker 2: Or its propaganda or they're propagandizing them in real time.
Speaker 2: You want to talk about like ha Mess, there's ha
Speaker 2: Mess spokespeople who are giving interviews like you can do
Speaker 2: that piece if you want to talk to them and
Speaker 2: be like, well, we heard about you know, the fuel
Speaker 2: being withheld from x y Z.
Speaker 3: What do you have to say to that?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 3: But there's people who are on the ground, These doctors
Speaker 3: who have to sleep in operating rooms, who can't leave
Speaker 3: because the flood of people who need help is is
Speaker 3: just constant. The people who have brought their own families
Speaker 3: to hide in these hospitals too. I mean there are
Speaker 3: thousands of people in these hospitals and you can just
Speaker 3: imagine the chaos by opening this window and talking to
Speaker 3: these people and just asking them about like Hames, it
Speaker 3: just drove me nuts. Like you would never see that.
Speaker 3: You would never see somebody talking to somebody hiding in
Speaker 3: their escape room in the Kibbutz, you know when that
Speaker 3: was happening, and if the media were able to get
Speaker 3: them on the phone, you would never imagine them being like, well,
Speaker 3: what do you think about Natan? Yeah, who's saying the
Speaker 3: settlements are about you know that at risk?
Speaker 2: He's putting y'all at risk, right, Because I feel like
Speaker 2: you're saying a.
Speaker 1: Lot of them would say, yeah, hell yes he is.
Speaker 1: Like you know a lot of people feel like those
Speaker 1: policies are not popular, like he's fucking incredibly far right
Speaker 1: and fascist, and like if they were willing to ask
Speaker 1: those fucking questions, I feel like that would also be Well.
Speaker 2: It just kind of leaves it leaves out this the
Speaker 2: like not even elephant in the room. The biggest dimension
Speaker 2: of this is oppression. Yeah, and to just skirt by
Speaker 2: them be like, well you condemn Hamas, right, Like, let's
Speaker 2: just keep let's let's let's keep reinforcing because I see
Speaker 2: this so much in the rhetoric of people who are
Speaker 2: defending what the IDF is doing in the Israeli government,
Speaker 2: of keeping the focus on Hamas about being like free
Speaker 2: these people from Hamas and like that's what it is,
Speaker 2: and rather than really like widening out the focus here
Speaker 2: to really understand all the dimensions of it. Because to
Speaker 2: your point, like when someone is bringing up these facts
Speaker 2: that would that is, you know, meant to tell a
Speaker 2: very human story about Palestinian people. To to then bring
Speaker 2: it to what about Hamas completely just takes the window
Speaker 2: out of that take or what the point someone's trying
Speaker 2: to make to just make it purely about right right
Speaker 2: there is that? But what about this other thing that
Speaker 2: we can agree is bad? Let's talk about the bad thing,
Speaker 2: because I don't want to keep talking about how innocent
Speaker 2: people are being brutalized through no fault of their own, right,
Speaker 2: I think that's also been really hard to watch too totally.
Speaker 3: And what drives me nuts is that these are like allegations, right,
Speaker 3: There's been no proof put forth by the Israeli government,
Speaker 3: but there's just not enough scrutiny to sort of just say, okay, well,
Speaker 3: the Israeli government is saying this is that true? Like
Speaker 3: we almost I've seen too many media outlets and journalists
Speaker 3: skipping that step and going straight to okay, well, we
Speaker 3: need to now ask the other side that this allegation
Speaker 3: is being made of to defend themselves for when this out.
Speaker 3: I mean, we need to see proof, man, before anything else.
Speaker 3: This idea about copaganda, right, this idea that it came
Speaker 3: about after the popular Black Lives Matter uprisings across the country,
Speaker 3: after George Floyd was killed, where it was obvious that
Speaker 3: the police when they issue statements, I think a lot
Speaker 3: of people have suddenly realize that they have they are
Speaker 3: incentivized to lie, and that you really that first like
Speaker 3: that first account that they gave was well, he was
Speaker 3: on drugs and he was attacking us, and you know,
Speaker 3: he was fighting back and all this stuff that after
Speaker 3: you see the clips, you know it's not even close
Speaker 3: to being true, and you know, this is I feel
Speaker 3: like there's overlaps here, and I think part of the
Speaker 3: lesson that we learned there in journalism and in people
Speaker 3: who are consuming media is that, you know, the police
Speaker 3: are incentivized to protect their own skin. I wish I
Speaker 3: could see more of that when we're looking about Palestine.
Speaker 3: This idea that Israel has a long track record, not
Speaker 3: israel government. I gotta be specific, because Israelis are as
Speaker 3: diverse as anyplace else in the world. Uh they Israeli
Speaker 3: government has a long track record of lying. We saw
Speaker 3: when they killed the journalist turnebe Uckley. We saw it
Speaker 3: when they killed those four boys, those four preteens on
Speaker 3: the beach with worship. We saw that with There's like
Speaker 3: so many examples man of like them denying that they
Speaker 3: did something when they're doing it. So I would love
Speaker 3: to see the same amount of scrutiny being like, well,
Speaker 3: you're making these claims, we need to see proof or
Speaker 3: we need to hold out to see like what everybody
Speaker 3: else is saying. Right, Yeah, it feels like we're so
Speaker 3: eager to take this narrative and put it out.
Speaker 2: Is there like a dimension because like we talk about
Speaker 2: this all the time, like how especially in American media,
Speaker 2: like there's people can't like grapple with white supremacy or
Speaker 2: systemic oppression, and journalists can't. And a lot of people
Speaker 2: talk about how like it what it takes to actually
Speaker 2: get to a certain newsroom and the and like what
Speaker 2: the culture is of a specific outlet that sort of
Speaker 2: self filters in a way that you're only going to
Speaker 2: get people who are kind of know how to like
Speaker 2: read from the same book when that time comes. Are
Speaker 2: you like, do you see it as a dimension of
Speaker 2: just sort of like these ingrained sort of like just
Speaker 2: the lack of American curiosity or or about like honestly
Speaker 2: reporting about imperialism or is it like other you know,
Speaker 2: because we see also like these like McCarthy I type
Speaker 2: activities that are happening where people if they deign to
Speaker 2: speak out about what's happening that they are people are
Speaker 2: coming for their careers and things like that. How do
Speaker 2: you see like what like is it bad habits, is
Speaker 2: it external factors? Is it a combination of things? Like
Speaker 2: how do you kind of see like the environment that
Speaker 2: people are operating in when they just take the word
Speaker 2: of an IDF command or be like okay, that's what
Speaker 2: they said. Okay, print that without evidence and we'll just
Speaker 2: run to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean it breaks my fucking heart.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 3: I've been trying to to like not cry all day,
Speaker 3: and I'm like fighting it back now because you're what
Speaker 3: you said about the lack of curiosity. Really, it like
Speaker 3: hit something right in my heart, dude, because that's what
Speaker 3: it is. It is, man, It's it's this basic, this
Speaker 3: basic reflex that's maybe inside me because I have Arab
Speaker 3: heritage or I don't know what it is meant, but
Speaker 3: like I cannot, for the life of me, understand why
Speaker 3: there's not this curiosity where people are just satisfied with it,
Speaker 3: being like it's a religious war and so they're responding
Speaker 3: to their religion, and so it makes sense that they
Speaker 3: want to eliminate just Jewish people, and they use that
Speaker 3: as a way to just justify making claims like what's
Speaker 3: made what's on the on the Congress floor recently, that
Speaker 3: there is no such thing as a Palestinian civilian, right right.
Speaker 3: It's like when the Israeli government says that we're going
Speaker 3: to punish the people who are giving out candy or
Speaker 3: giving candy or like the people they elected Hamas, and
Speaker 3: it's like, where's the curiosity to say, Okay, what are
Speaker 3: the poles saying?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Because if you look for the poles like you would
Speaker 3: for any other community, when you're trying to understand like
Speaker 3: what this community is experience and think about how they feel,
Speaker 3: there are polls. Man, people go and they do studies
Speaker 3: about this stuff. Gaza has been under seeds for like
Speaker 3: the greater part of the last twenty years. This has
Speaker 3: been like a you know, the curiosity of academics, you know,
Speaker 3: people who are going in and finding out, oh, actually,
Speaker 3: more than seventy percent of the people in Gaza when
Speaker 3: they were asked if peace was option where they want
Speaker 3: to live in peace with Israel's their neighbors and seventy
Speaker 3: five I don't know the exact number, more than seventy percent.
Speaker 3: We're like, yeah, we want peace, but you almost don't.
Speaker 3: You don't even see that number quoted anywhere because there's
Speaker 3: no curiosity. There's no thought experiment of like, well are
Speaker 3: these people like us? Where there were responding to many
Speaker 3: different things, there's this idea that is really prevalent. I
Speaker 3: think among a lot of writers and journalists that the
Speaker 3: issue is that there's an ideological conflict, right that if
Speaker 3: only each side could just get along, then this problem
Speaker 3: would get solved. Right that there are actual partners for
Speaker 3: peace on either end of this that are being usurped
Speaker 3: by these like radical ideological groups. This is not the
Speaker 3: case here, man, This is not the case. What you
Speaker 3: said about the the imbalance of power here is everything.
Speaker 3: Because I think this really cuts through to how so
Speaker 3: many people who are sympathetic with the Palestinian cause actually
Speaker 3: feel about this. And it drives me nuts seeing some
Speaker 3: of these protests being described that the protests that we've
Speaker 3: seen across the country, across the world. I think London
Speaker 3: just had the biggest protest ever in its history, and
Speaker 3: it was for Palestine. This being condensed as it being
Speaker 3: like a pro Hamas rally or an anti Israel rally.
Speaker 3: You know, the idea that these people could just be
Speaker 3: flattened to like this responding to this one part of
Speaker 3: this conflict drives me nuts. Yeah, you know, where's the curiosity,
Speaker 3: you mean, said the reporter. Talk to these people, find
Speaker 3: out what they're saying. They're filming themselves. They're telling you
Speaker 3: what they're saying. The same thing with from the River
Speaker 3: to the Sea Palestine will be free. The congresswoman Rashida
Speaker 3: Tslay just got censured by her own colleagues on the
Speaker 3: Democratic side, who helped the obviously bad faith right wing
Speaker 3: use that rallying cry to punish her. Now, none of
Speaker 3: the reporting I've seen makes context of what she was
Speaker 3: actually saying in the speech where she said that she
Speaker 3: wants peace for everybody. They just took the right wings
Speaker 3: word for it that she was calling for genocide. She
Speaker 3: was calling for genocide, man, come on, freedom.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And also the speech, where did she give it? Where's
Speaker 3: the curiosity? Where did she give the speech? She gave
Speaker 3: it a Jewish voices for peace rally right, Come on?
Speaker 3: Like this is basic journalism one oh one that you
Speaker 3: will see in every context except for this, And it
Speaker 3: makes me want to tear my eye out, man.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is what's so difficult to watch after
Speaker 2: going through the summer of twenty twenty and understanding how
Speaker 2: oppression affects people, and like they were, they were doing this,
Speaker 2: like they This is why, like I'm so cynical about
Speaker 2: how our media operates, because it's operating not even to
Speaker 2: inform people. It's there to just preserve these systems of
Speaker 2: oppression under like because these questions that are asked like
Speaker 2: similar to like in twenty twenty, you bear like every
Speaker 2: now and then you'd hear some reporter as somebody who's
Speaker 2: at a protest, why they're there, Like everything was always
Speaker 2: like and we're here with the police. Start, we're here
Speaker 2: with you know, Sheriff Villanueva, who's telling us about what
Speaker 2: is happening in Los Angeles and getting this perspective that
Speaker 2: is meant to just like, to your point, flatten this
Speaker 2: movement into like a very easy to digest, like these
Speaker 2: people just like want chaos or something, and it's it's
Speaker 2: it's not that great of a thing. Slowly, I feel
Speaker 2: like those things changed because I think there are enough
Speaker 2: people in America to kind of begin to grapple with
Speaker 2: that somewhat. But this also just feels so disgusting and
Speaker 2: uncomfortable to because it really pulls out just the inherent
Speaker 2: Islamophobia that exists in this country too, because I feel
Speaker 2: like it's so eat a lot of people just want
Speaker 2: to reflexively just cast people who, like in Palestine is
Speaker 2: being like, yeah, well, you know, like they voted for Hamas,
Speaker 2: so that means they're bad and it's that simple, and
Speaker 2: that really is so difficult to have to sit through
Speaker 2: because to your point, this is all happening while innocent
Speaker 2: people are suffering under that, and there's many people want
Speaker 2: to say, well, they're voting for they voted for Hamas. Well,
Speaker 2: then what's happening in the West Bank because Hamas is
Speaker 2: not in power in the West Bank, the pa is
Speaker 2: you know, and like and so where is that argument now,
Speaker 2: because we're only seeing increased violence there as well. But
Speaker 2: you know it the again, it's always this lack of
Speaker 2: humanity that's extended to these people in such a like
Speaker 2: casual way is really unnerving because you know, it makes
Speaker 2: me feel like I'm living in a place where more
Speaker 2: more people are like, yeah, some people are just not
Speaker 2: human to me. And that is really really frightening and
Speaker 2: horrific and such a difficult thing to grapple with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's take a quick break and we'll
Speaker 1: be right back there. Seems like there's a real tension
Speaker 1: between people versus the leaders because amen, as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: the polling suggests that Hamas is very unpopular, and you know,
Speaker 1: the the net Yahoo government and the lead up was
Speaker 1: viewed as extreme and you know what was being protested
Speaker 1: throughout Israel, and we're seeing these massive protests for peace
Speaker 1: and for like more humane policies and more humane actions
Speaker 1: going forward. But the I don't know, it's when the
Speaker 1: mainstream media covers it. They take the quotes from the
Speaker 1: most these inhumane leaders, and then that becomes sort of
Speaker 1: the marching orders for like the two different sides. When
Speaker 1: it does feel like there are a lot of people
Speaker 1: who are seeing the same thing that we're seeing, but
Speaker 1: they're just Yeah.
Speaker 3: It drives me nuts because it feels like people forgot that.
Speaker 3: Right before all this happened, there were thousands of Israelis
Speaker 3: protesting against their far right government, and there were also
Speaker 3: Palestinians and Gaza protesting. Thousands of people in Gaza protesting
Speaker 3: against Hamez, which in that case could be dangerous, right
Speaker 3: because we know that Hajmez is they basically rule like
Speaker 3: military thugs. They shoot people and they drag their corpses
Speaker 3: in the street, and so you have to imagine how
Speaker 3: fucking brave these people are for protesting in the streets
Speaker 3: and Kaza. Yeah, but that happened. Are they innocent?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: Do they want never ending bloodshed? No? They were chanting
Speaker 3: we want to live like that was one of the chances. So,
Speaker 3: you know, I think all of this context is important.
Speaker 3: I realize and I recognize that in the wake of
Speaker 3: something like on October seventh, there needs to be room
Speaker 3: to grieve. Yeah, and I recognize that that pain is real,
Speaker 3: and I wish, I wish the hostages would be set free.
Speaker 3: Like all of that, I think there's room for all
Speaker 3: of that to also coexist with that same wanting, that
Speaker 3: same want for a ceasefire, that same want for people
Speaker 3: who are being pummeled to death being bombed eleven thousand
Speaker 3: plus not counting the thirteen hundred that are still under
Speaker 3: the rubble and unaccounted for. You know, you can't even
Speaker 3: digest those numbers. We're parents, right like we we can't
Speaker 3: even digest what it's like to be a parent in
Speaker 3: Gaza right now. And did you guys hear about this
Speaker 3: new acronym that's now being coined in Gaza.
Speaker 2: What was it about the children with no parents or
Speaker 2: something like that.
Speaker 3: The new acronym is WC and SF wounded Child, no
Speaker 3: Surviving Family.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what That's what I'm like. Again, I feel
Speaker 2: like I'm in the fucking Twilight Zone, man, because I
Speaker 2: don't know how parent or not. You can look at
Speaker 2: people who are fucking did nothing, who are trying to survive,
Speaker 2: and they're living under an occupation where that's made virtually impossible,
Speaker 2: and then you see the violence that they are experiencing,
Speaker 2: and to like, how do you look at that? And
Speaker 2: then you're brangles, Well, you know, they voted for homic
Speaker 2: Like it's wild that it's it's almost like they're like
Speaker 2: people are being trained or like inoculated against being able
Speaker 2: to look upon what is happening and arrive at the conclusion,
Speaker 2: which is this has to fucking stop. And that's what
Speaker 2: is like really unnerving when I see people brush this
Speaker 2: kind of shit off to kind of keep like with
Speaker 2: their sort of like raw RhE of like the IDF
Speaker 2: and and you know, continued violence and yeah, I don't
Speaker 2: know that that's where that's where it's it's very It's
Speaker 2: just it can be so easy to become nihilistic and
Speaker 2: so deeply cynical with all of this. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: don't know, Like I mean, I feel like I for me,
Speaker 2: like I can only continue to try and bear witness
Speaker 2: to it. Because as much as I want to ignore it.
Speaker 2: I can't for the life of me think of if
Speaker 2: I was in the situation of these people that I
Speaker 2: would I would be hoping that they that they're putting
Speaker 2: the energy, the thoughts towards kind of some kind of solution,
Speaker 2: that they will use their voices to try and speak
Speaker 2: up for me or my family and things like that.
Speaker 2: And it's that that simple level of us prosody that
Speaker 2: like people can't even get behind is also kind of
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's like doing something to me that
Speaker 2: I really don't like, because like with every little bit
Speaker 2: of people I see not acknowledging others humanity, like, I
Speaker 2: feel like part of me becomes callous garth like gets
Speaker 2: calloused over and I'm losing a part of it too,
Speaker 2: and just trying to, i don't know, like to to
Speaker 2: find and see if the other people are seeing the
Speaker 2: humanity and all of it, you know. So one of the.
Speaker 3: Pieces that I did recently, I really like. It's and
Speaker 3: it's a series of interviews with people who are losing
Speaker 3: their their friendship circles. Right, So I interviewed this one
Speaker 3: girl who was friends with this scientist too, this Israeli guy.
Speaker 3: She's a Muslim girl, she's Arab and they used to
Speaker 3: like talk about how like this Israeli guy grew up
Speaker 3: with Arabic culture a little bit in Israel and would
Speaker 3: like send her Arabic songs that she liked and she'd
Speaker 3: be like, oh my mom used to make this while
Speaker 3: we were making food. Like they had like a friendly relationship.
Speaker 3: But then when all of this started, he turned into
Speaker 3: almost like an Internet troll where he was just replying
Speaker 3: to all of her Instagram stories where she was sharing
Speaker 3: some of what she was happening in Gaza and rationalizing
Speaker 3: it and calling her a Hames supporter and all this stuff. Right,
Speaker 3: that kind of thing got me curious. I was like,
Speaker 3: how is this possible? Man, Like, you know who this
Speaker 3: person is, you know that she was friends with you,
Speaker 3: You know that you were like that was never an obstacle.
Speaker 3: This like overwhelming hatred of Jewish people written large, like
Speaker 3: you know that that's not what's in her heart for
Speaker 3: a fact, because you guys were friends for years. The
Speaker 3: piece doesn't go there. The piece talks about like how
Speaker 3: to keep I talked to this person who helped co
Speaker 3: found this sisterhood of Shalam Salam where they're like a
Speaker 3: friend circle of Jewish women and Muslim women here in
Speaker 3: America who like break bread together, hang out together. And
Speaker 3: so I was like, tell me how you like hope
Speaker 3: with these kinds of like flashpoints where this conflict and
Speaker 3: there was like a beautiful article. You can go and
Speaker 3: find it and read it. I wrote it, so obviously
Speaker 3: I recommend that you do, but it got me. After
Speaker 3: writing it. I was thinking, I was like, how is
Speaker 3: this even possible? Like, how's this person's instinct not to go, oh,
Speaker 3: we have this relationship, how is your heart? Like how
Speaker 3: are you feeling? Like? What are you experiencing? How is
Speaker 3: it like this this bombing is happening, Like I recognize
Speaker 3: your pain as much as I want you to recognize
Speaker 3: my pain, And that to me felt like the natural
Speaker 3: way to respond to something. And I was like, how's
Speaker 3: that possible? And then I was reading this old study
Speaker 3: like this, maybe from like ten fifteen years ago, about
Speaker 3: how it's possible that if you see the suffering of
Speaker 3: a group that you consider to be on the opposite
Speaker 3: end of you ideologically, that could actually trigger your pleasure
Speaker 3: receptors and your brain. And I need to find this out,
Speaker 3: even sending to you guys. But I thought it was
Speaker 3: so fascinating that biologically, depending on where we land on
Speaker 3: the political spectrum, for some reason, how you experience the
Speaker 3: suffering of somebody could be either pain or pleasure. I
Speaker 3: was like, what the hell? And I think once I
Speaker 3: recognize that, right, it helped me realize what was actually important, right,
Speaker 3: not just as a journalist but as a human, which
Speaker 3: is like, everybody just wants their pain to be recognized
Speaker 3: and to be felt. And this idea that the Palestinian
Speaker 3: pain is fake, Like you can just do with Twitter
Speaker 3: search for the phrase Pallywood, Yeah, and you'll see so
Speaker 3: many rationalizations and justifications for the killings of innocent people
Speaker 3: by denying that they're there in the first place, which
Speaker 3: is monstrous. But it helped me to recognize that even
Speaker 3: if I empathize with one side, I'm not just talking
Speaker 3: about Pasti in Israel, but like the idea that we
Speaker 3: need to just be better at communicating that we're hurting
Speaker 3: right now, that this is fucking painful, what we're going
Speaker 3: through right now. To see these kinds of thing that
Speaker 3: you know, like this, oh my god, man, like I'm
Speaker 3: in so much fucking pain right now. Everybody's in so
Speaker 3: much fucking pain right now, Like, why are we not
Speaker 3: just giving each other hugs? Man, Like I feel like
Speaker 3: we need to do that instead of like trying to
Speaker 3: make each other feel like you're actually manipulated and you're
Speaker 3: being lied to, so your pain is fake or oh,
Speaker 3: actually I saw a video of a helicopter hitting Israeli,
Speaker 3: so your pain is manufactured and fake. But at the
Speaker 3: same time, it's like, only one side has the power
Speaker 3: to stop this, only one side has the capacity to
Speaker 3: make peace. So really, like does any of this actually matter?
Speaker 3: Maybe this is just we're going to experience this pain
Speaker 3: and just cry it out, man, because I gotta tell you, dude,
Speaker 3: as somebody who wants the fighting to stop, and as
Speaker 3: somebody who knows that all of the powers on one
Speaker 3: side who can make peace today if they wanted to,
Speaker 3: it feels really fucking bleak and hopeless.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, especially when you know you hear things like
Speaker 2: from our own government too, or they're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: he's fire. I don't know if that's possible, if that's
Speaker 2: on the table, and that's the kind of it's kind
Speaker 2: of rhetoric that we're hearing from, like people who even
Speaker 2: have any kind of leverage in the situation.
Speaker 1: What can he do though, He's just he's just surprising it.
Speaker 1: He's just the president. What what? Like, guys, how many
Speaker 1: times does he have to tell you this? He's he's
Speaker 1: just just the president here. He can't do anything.
Speaker 2: What do you mean to do?
Speaker 1: What do you what do you want him to do?
Speaker 2: The present matter? But vote for me, but vote for me.
Speaker 2: Practically don't matter, but please vote for me. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: I think there's also like this element too of like
Speaker 2: sometimes and I just I don't mean to like simplify
Speaker 2: what's happening, like interpersonally, right like, and sometimes when we
Speaker 2: acknowledge the pain we've inflicted on someone else, there's a
Speaker 2: some you can feel, like an acknowledgment of the transgressions
Speaker 2: that were made. And I think on some level too,
Speaker 2: there are probably people who don't want to acknowledge that
Speaker 2: kind of pain because on some level they don't want
Speaker 2: to admit that there might be some level of responsibility,
Speaker 2: like on from their side too. So it gets locked
Speaker 2: into this bizarre fucking thing where people are just more
Speaker 2: invested in conspiracy theories than the very very real pain
Speaker 2: and suffering that's happening, which We've said on the show,
Speaker 2: this is only going to foment more hatred and is
Speaker 2: only going to further destabilize this part of the world,
Speaker 2: radicalize more people. It's not like so like I'm always like,
Speaker 2: what does Israeli government think is going to happen? Like
Speaker 2: I'm always like, I can help me even understand the
Speaker 2: logic that again, people are just gonna say like, yeah,
Speaker 2: all right, that was an l for us, so you
Speaker 2: win and let's just move on with our lives. That's
Speaker 2: just not how things work. And so to see that
Speaker 2: sort of like for them to continue down this road
Speaker 2: when it's so clear to every single person like this
Speaker 2: is not this doesn't make anybody safer. It's really also
Speaker 2: just so frustrating, and yeah, it leads you to that
Speaker 2: point like is it really are we just going to
Speaker 2: have to stand by and watch this all go down?
Speaker 2: Because everybody in powers is sort of like kind of
Speaker 2: or at least in the you know, empirical world, sort
Speaker 2: of knows that they're like, yeah, well this is this
Speaker 2: is what we're gonna do, and that's just a very
Speaker 2: difficult pill to swallow.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, one of the one of the most racist things
Speaker 3: I've ever seen. No, it's not true. I've seen a
Speaker 3: lot of racist shit, But the one conspiracy that drives
Speaker 3: me nuts is this like rationalizing of this ideal ideology
Speaker 3: of hate and death that he mess is instilling in
Speaker 3: their kids. And that's the reason why this conflict is
Speaker 3: going on. Right, you ever see like Israeli leaders talking
Speaker 3: about Hames textbooks and this idea that they hate us
Speaker 3: because their kids are being taught to hate us. It's
Speaker 3: like how removed you have to be from what's happening
Speaker 3: on the ground to accept that as rational. I mean,
Speaker 3: even like Ben Shapiro floats this kind of thing where
Speaker 3: it's like it's the textbooks. If you got rid of
Speaker 3: the textbooks, there will be lasting peace in this enclave
Speaker 3: that we've been bombing periodically, that we've been starving and
Speaker 3: calorie counting and you know, mocku line, you.
Speaker 1: Know what I mean, it's under like under siege occupied.
Speaker 3: It's this idea that like these kids that are going
Speaker 3: through this cannot fathomably respond to the Israeli air bombings.
Speaker 3: You know, if seeing the like that acronym bro the acronym, like,
Speaker 3: what's going to happen to that kid? Right? One of
Speaker 3: the doctors just asked that question. It's like, well, because
Speaker 3: he taught. He mentioned that the hospital that he's in
Speaker 3: that's meant to service like six hundred people, is now
Speaker 3: being occupied by close to two thousand people, and many
Speaker 3: of them are just you know. He said that kids
Speaker 3: wandering and by themselves, and that it's starting to feel
Speaker 3: more like an orphanage than a hospital. The idea that
Speaker 3: these people who have never seen or met in Israeli
Speaker 3: in their lives, beyond just the bombardment, beyond the people
Speaker 3: at the guard towers, if you could even see them
Speaker 3: from as far as where the line is, where if
Speaker 3: they cross it, they'll get shot. The fact that this
Speaker 3: is their whole relationship with their neighbor for their entire lives. Man, right,
Speaker 3: they have no fucking family left. And you're gonna say
Speaker 3: it's the textbooks Like that to me drives me insane.
Speaker 3: It drives me insane, and I feel like I'm the
Speaker 3: only person who could see through it, because it still
Speaker 3: feels like in the media sphere, we're still trying to
Speaker 3: find the ideological clash, Like where do these ideologies just
Speaker 3: not settle with each other? Why can't they make peace
Speaker 3: when all you need to do is just look up
Speaker 3: what Smatra is saying or what Ben Giverer is saying.
Speaker 3: Who are active ministers who are talking about flattening Gaza
Speaker 3: and we are talking about wanting to use Gaza as
Speaker 3: a freaking water park?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: Who deny the fact that Palestinians exist at all?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's like what is going on? Like how
Speaker 3: am I the only person that just sees this shit?
Speaker 2: Man?
Speaker 3: And it's like I really and so I feel like
Speaker 3: all of this has been like ebbing and flowing inside
Speaker 3: of me, and I'm trying to focus. I'm trying to
Speaker 3: get this work done and trying to write these pieces.
Speaker 3: And then you just like get on Twitter because you
Speaker 3: get a notification and then you see this video of
Speaker 3: like this aunt's this aunt digging through like this bag
Speaker 3: of like charred body parts of like two and three
Speaker 3: year olds, like trying to recognize the palm of this.
Speaker 3: She goes, she picks up this like half of an
Speaker 3: arm with a hand attached, and she holds and she
Speaker 3: touches the hand and she goes, this either belongs to
Speaker 3: like we'll see it or no, see like this, you know,
Speaker 3: trying to figure out like whose scalp because it's just
Speaker 3: like hair, like who's who's which baby had hair like this,
Speaker 3: so that they can identify the parts. And then at
Speaker 3: the same time, you're in your newsroom and you see somebody, right,
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna I don't think I've seen this that slaves.
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna say hypothetically, you're in your newsroom, and
Speaker 3: then somebody writes, Hames run Ministry of Health, as if
Speaker 3: there's like dudes with ipgs and ski masks coming up
Speaker 3: with numbers and not actual trained professionals and doctors with
Speaker 3: international organizations like doctors of the out broorders in the
Speaker 3: room trying to help them account for the dead and
Speaker 3: trying to be as frugal and correct as possible so
Speaker 3: as not to double count somebody because they got the
Speaker 3: they got the body in pieces, right, they're trying to
Speaker 3: do this work. And then President Biden says, oh, well,
Speaker 3: I have no faith in those numbers. That that grief
Speaker 3: that you're feeling from seeing all of what you're seeing
Speaker 3: with your own eyes is manufactured by Hamas and it's
Speaker 3: meant to make to trick you into seeing what Israel
Speaker 3: is doing is evil, like this is it just I
Speaker 3: cannot fathom. I cannot fathom anyone who's not outraged by this, right,
Speaker 3: And it just feels like the baseline is if you're outraged,
Speaker 3: it's because you're being tricked into outrage.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, or you yourself have so much hatred in
Speaker 2: your heart that you're just using this as a vehicle
Speaker 2: to open up some other murky door. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: like the only thing. Yeah, I think the closest thing
Speaker 2: I saw to something resembling, you know, humanly functioning State Department.
Speaker 2: And let's not even get started about the fucking State Department.
Speaker 2: But like apparently there's like an internal memo where a
Speaker 2: lot of like State Department employees are like Joe Biden
Speaker 2: is spreading misinformation on the Israel Hamas war right now
Speaker 2: and like saying, like we're seeing war crimes be committed,
Speaker 2: but we also have a commander in chief who is
Speaker 2: complicit in what is happening there. But again, it's like
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel like it feels like it doesn't matter
Speaker 2: how many people are out in the streets, what the
Speaker 2: how diverse these groups of people are, how numerous it is,
Speaker 2: and you know, how so much of the world is
Speaker 2: on on one side saying we need to help the people,
Speaker 2: these Palestinian people, and have it brushed aside. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean it's you know, it reveals just a much darker system.
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean that's always existed, but it like it,
Speaker 2: It really just puts it right in front of you,
Speaker 2: and it makes it feel completely insurmountable, which is so
Speaker 2: fucking hard to deal with.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's so dangerous right now to be a
Speaker 3: journalist man, because in this on this side of the world,
Speaker 3: a lot of people are getting fired or being told
Speaker 3: to not report on this stuff because they're they're being
Speaker 3: they're like being active on social media. And part of
Speaker 3: me gets it, being like, yeah, you really shouldn't be
Speaker 3: like advocating for any size if you want to maintain
Speaker 3: any kind of public credibility, public facing credibility, even though
Speaker 3: even if in your heart you feel like you can
Speaker 3: still do your job. But even when we talk about power,
Speaker 3: it's like, you know, there are people who are journalists
Speaker 3: who are accusing other people of like being a mess.
Speaker 3: Run Journalists like this one guy who writes for the
Speaker 3: New York Post still has his job, right, not fires, right.
Speaker 3: They are journalists who are advocating for genocide still have
Speaker 3: their jobs. It just depends on which side you're advocating
Speaker 3: to get genocide. It just I would love to see
Speaker 3: some consistency. But one thing that we haven't talked about
Speaker 3: that I would love to bring up is this like
Speaker 3: feud over the posters, like the kidnap posters. I know
Speaker 3: you guys have talked about it before on the show,
Speaker 3: but there's this idea that you know, if you take
Speaker 3: something down, then you have like hate in your heart
Speaker 3: or you're doing it because you don't recognize that pain.
Speaker 3: And I don't agree with people taking it down. I
Speaker 3: think if he bothers you walk, it's like, especially in
Speaker 3: New York City, do just keep walking, It doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: But like reducing those people to caricatures of like anti semites, really,
Speaker 3: I think you have to avoid the thinking about the
Speaker 3: para name at play the role of postering and how
Speaker 3: this idea of like people who don't have a voice
Speaker 3: can use the walls as canvas to like get their
Speaker 3: message out.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: So even if you want, even if you want people
Speaker 3: to care about those people who are being kidnapped, I
Speaker 3: just don't understand flattening the people who are removing them
Speaker 3: because they're in pain, because they feel like they're being
Speaker 3: sidel sidelined flattening them into being like pro kidnapping. It
Speaker 3: just everything about how we're having this could discourse online
Speaker 3: feels both evil, not evil, It feels disingenuous, but it
Speaker 3: also feels sort of besides the point, because as long
Speaker 3: as the bombardment continues in Gaza, as long as our
Speaker 3: government keeps arming them, giving them the bombs to drop,
Speaker 3: it all just sort of feels like besides the point,
Speaker 3: like who cares? Who cares about these posters? Who cares
Speaker 3: about ripping them down? It's like people are being blown
Speaker 3: to smithereens, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just drives me nuts.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 3: It's like people, I think in America understand what happens
Speaker 3: when you get shot. We have we're like the mass
Speaker 3: shooting capital of the world. We don't understand what it's
Speaker 3: like to have a bomb dropped.
Speaker 2: We don't know what it's like unless you're like a
Speaker 2: maybe like black activist in Philly or something like that, Right,
Speaker 2: I mean we have, Yeah, we have very locksided experiences
Speaker 2: here too, and I think that's why this ship resonates
Speaker 2: with so many people. Like I said this before. Man,
Speaker 2: it's so easy to see through the bullshit if you
Speaker 2: have any kind of experience or proximity to being marginalized
Speaker 2: or oppressed. And it's wild too to just sort of
Speaker 2: see people be like, well, I can't identify with the oppressed,
Speaker 2: so I think I'm more like the people who are
Speaker 2: having like a nice beach time while you know, indiscriminate
Speaker 2: bombing is happening.
Speaker 3: What does proportionality look like? Like, what do you want
Speaker 3: Israel to do? It's like all that is just yeah,
Speaker 3: it feels so annoying. Man, it breaks my heart.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean in Reday more and more about the
Speaker 1: net NYA who like administration and just how extremely right
Speaker 1: wing it is and how unpopular and like clear eyed,
Speaker 1: a lot of the criticism of that administration is like
Speaker 1: it it does feel like that if there, if there's
Speaker 1: a way that this eventually through just sheer number of
Speaker 1: people continuing to push on the side of humanity, you know,
Speaker 1: like versus these small extreme I know it's very bleak
Speaker 1: right now, but the more I read about just how
Speaker 1: extremely like it's both scary, like how do we get
Speaker 1: to this position where this is who's in power? But
Speaker 1: it's also it feels like a small number of extreme
Speaker 1: militants on both sides are like holding all the power,
Speaker 1: and some how the communication needs to change so that
Speaker 1: it's that that becomes clear, like A yeah, in the
Speaker 1: way that mainstream media covers it.
Speaker 3: That's an important question. I'm not Palestinian, so I'm like,
Speaker 3: I take my cues from people who are Palestinian and
Speaker 3: Israeli who are working towards peace. You know, there are
Speaker 3: so many, so many Israelis that want peace, and they
Speaker 3: are the vast majority as far as I'm concerned, And
Speaker 3: there are so many Palestinians that want peace, and they
Speaker 3: are the vast majority as far as I'm concerned. The
Speaker 3: people who are wanting all or nothing are the marginalized ones, right,
Speaker 3: but they get all the attention, so it's hard to
Speaker 3: see that sometimes. Yeah, you know, the one piece that
Speaker 3: I've did recently for Slate, I think kind of gets
Speaker 3: at what you're saying a little bit. He's a guy
Speaker 3: who was born in this small village in Area CE.
Speaker 2: Do you guys know what like area areas A, B
Speaker 2: and C are and what you think that's see, Like
Speaker 2: A has like is mostly PA controlled, right, and B
Speaker 2: is like split and then C is all Israeli controlled, right, correct, Yeah,
Speaker 2: so there are so after they made those designations, there
Speaker 2: were still and there still are today areas in Area C.
Speaker 2: Oh wait actually are aiman? Let me let me just
Speaker 2: explain that because I think most people will absolutely have
Speaker 2: no idea, Like I just didn't every cat like as
Speaker 2: we both know. Yeah, okay, because I know that it's
Speaker 2: broken up basically into three parts where the Palestinian authority
Speaker 2: has like sort of civil control. I mean, why don't
Speaker 2: you break that down? Because I know the levels of
Speaker 2: control for Palestinian people. It varies depending on what zone
Speaker 2: you're in, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Are A is exclusively administered by the PA,
Speaker 3: Area B is administered jointly by the PA and Israel,
Speaker 3: and Area C is administered by Israel. So uh, if
Speaker 3: you ever see like that Swiss cheese map showing all
Speaker 3: of these tiny little islands like that are not connected
Speaker 3: to each other at all, those are the Palestinian parts.
Speaker 3: There's all like maybe maybe amount the same sized islands
Speaker 3: that are that are like right in the middle between
Speaker 3: those are be and everything around it, like all the
Speaker 3: big open rural areas are Area.
Speaker 2: See.
Speaker 3: So a lot of the there there's still like a
Speaker 3: hefty amount. So they made these divisions based on population
Speaker 3: mostly when they did made these divisions Israel, this is
Speaker 3: this was all done by the during the Oslo Cords.
Speaker 3: Israel made the case that they needed those rural areas
Speaker 3: to secure their secure peace for themselves and to also
Speaker 3: possibly defend against Jordan or Syria. So like much of
Speaker 3: the eastern side is area see controlled by Israel, there
Speaker 3: are still like Palestinian run farms in Palestinian villages out there.
Speaker 3: And so I interviewed a guy to see like what
Speaker 3: life was like for him out there, you know, in
Speaker 3: area see where he was living. And what he described
Speaker 3: to me was basically night raids being done by not
Speaker 3: soldiers but civilian settlers who are dressed in like camouflage
Speaker 3: soldier fatigues who are armed with American guns, like sixteens,
Speaker 3: who show up at night and they basically zip tie
Speaker 3: all the guys and they put guns to their heads
Speaker 3: and they say you have twenty four hours to leave
Speaker 3: or we're gonna come back and massacre you guys. And
Speaker 3: then they'll also destroy their olive trees, they'll shoot at
Speaker 3: their water sources, they'll pour cement into their water sources
Speaker 3: so that they can't continue to feed their trees or
Speaker 3: feed their animals. And a lot of these people are farmers,
Speaker 3: and you know, they work the land and they graze
Speaker 3: their their goats or their whatever animals they have, and
Speaker 3: so they sort of require like large amounts of lands
Speaker 3: to run their lives. And these people were coming in
Speaker 3: emboldened by what was happening, saying, Okay, so there's a
Speaker 3: war going on, So now we are the law, and
Speaker 3: they'll call the cops, and the cops because in this area,
Speaker 3: the Israel's and control sob quality Israeli cops and they'll
Speaker 3: they'll so when they do come, they'll back the settlers up.
Speaker 3: And there's already been people who have been shot being killed.
Speaker 3: He talked about how he can't even vocalize that they
Speaker 3: are like angry at these people for coming in and
Speaker 3: destroying their livelihoods and seizing them like blocking roads, and
Speaker 3: people who need medicine can't get medicine, and people who
Speaker 3: can't get you know, it's like their kids can't go
Speaker 3: to school. These kids haven't gone to school for a
Speaker 3: month and they're nowhere near Gaza. So I talked to
Speaker 3: this guy and you could read about it in Slate
Speaker 3: where I published it. But I asked him, I was like,
Speaker 3: what's the solution here, like do you have hope? And
Speaker 3: he said that my only hope, because he doesn't have
Speaker 3: hope in the governments, is that his only hope that
Speaker 3: earned the free pens of the world. And what he
Speaker 3: meant was, so we did the whole thing in in
Speaker 3: Arabic and it sounded way more elegant Arabic, but he
Speaker 3: was saying that his only hope is in people who
Speaker 3: are in media to tell the truth about what's happening
Speaker 3: there and to get the word out. And in that contest,
Speaker 3: I was wondering, like free pen, what does that mean?
Speaker 3: What does that mean? And then I was thinking about,
Speaker 3: like the privilege that we have to report what we
Speaker 3: want to report, and that we are in a way
Speaker 3: censoring when we're not finding voices like these, And I
Speaker 3: thought of the responsibility, and I thought about, like what
Speaker 3: we're not doing by covering those kinds of voices, and
Speaker 3: how their entire hope, their only weapon really is that
Speaker 3: their own story, like that this kind of thing is
Speaker 3: happening to them, and there's nobody else that's there who's
Speaker 3: going to protect them, and nobody else is going to
Speaker 3: offer them a peaceful life except for US Man, except
Speaker 3: for people who can put pressure on their governments show
Speaker 3: the world what's happening to them. And in that context,
Speaker 3: I think I see journalism as being so freaking potent
Speaker 3: and so valuable and so threatening. And you know these
Speaker 3: rarely government has already killed forty plus journalists argued attacks.
Speaker 3: They'll deny it was targeted. The evidence showed, the forensic
Speaker 3: analysis show that they attacked the Reuter's convoy to the North,
Speaker 3: and they are They even openly said that when this
Speaker 3: honest reporting thing came out, honest reporting is this organ
Speaker 3: is like pro is real, It's not honest. Nor they
Speaker 3: had their mission statements to divert people's attention away from
Speaker 3: what the IDEF is doing. So that's why I'm saying that.
Speaker 3: But they had succeeded in painting people who were photojournalists
Speaker 3: who were documenting what was happening on October seventh, as
Speaker 3: being complicit and complying and cooperating with MS. And there
Speaker 3: are executions of innocent people on that day. And so
Speaker 3: the Defense Minister at my Ben Gavir and the Israeli
Speaker 3: government verbalized and openly said that those people who were
Speaker 3: photojournalists are complicit and that we will be adding them
Speaker 3: to the list of people who are going to be
Speaker 3: killing in response to what happened. Yeah, and it just
Speaker 3: another moment. When I saw that, I cried because that's like,
Speaker 3: this guy is basically signing a death warrant for these
Speaker 3: photojournalists because this American based Pro Israel Org wanted to,
Speaker 3: you know, contribute to the fog of war and make
Speaker 3: things more murky so that we aren't so we doubt
Speaker 3: what we see is true. And I just really if
Speaker 3: anybody who's listening gets anything from this, I just want
Speaker 3: you to know that it's dangerous to look away and
Speaker 3: finding primary good sources is everything right now, and these
Speaker 3: people are they have no other avenue for peace. That's
Speaker 3: the only way that there's going to be piece is
Speaker 3: that enough people wake up to what's happening, realize that
Speaker 3: it's not the textbooks that's driving these people apart. It's
Speaker 3: that there is this one government in Israel, the Israeli government,
Speaker 3: that has control over everything everything. They are in charge
Speaker 3: and if they wanted to right now, they could find
Speaker 3: the partners for peace and they could make peace. Without that,
Speaker 3: there's no hope. There's just not on the ground, not here.
Speaker 3: We're sitting nowhere. That's the only hope. Yeah, geez, I
Speaker 3: sound like fucking Carnell west Man.
Speaker 2: No, you haven't called me brother enough times.
Speaker 3: Come on, brother.
Speaker 1: I started by saying, do you have I mean just
Speaker 1: just generally like resources that you think? So I'm just
Speaker 1: getting all my information from X. Is that cool? Is that?
Speaker 1: Is that a good place to get now? Obviously social
Speaker 1: media has become.
Speaker 3: All you have to do is follows. That's where all
Speaker 3: the informations coming.
Speaker 1: Frock, he speaks the truth. But yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: like it's getting true information because there is the kind
Speaker 1: of mainstream bias that we're seeing and it is tough.
Speaker 1: But do you have any like kind of broad advice
Speaker 1: on on where how people should approach the task of
Speaker 1: like primary Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say the people who are covering this best,
Speaker 3: hands down to my opinion. This is just my opinion.
Speaker 2: Is Herot's.
Speaker 3: They're an Israeli based newspaper. They have both right leaning
Speaker 3: and left leaning writers. They have reporters and photojournalists who
Speaker 3: are on the ground. They have fixtures in Gaza, they
Speaker 3: are right now putting out the best information I read
Speaker 3: hearts in English. Sometimes there are articles that are only
Speaker 3: in Hebrew that you can if you have a computer,
Speaker 3: you can translate. It's very easy. And also, you know,
Speaker 3: they I think, enjoy more freedom to criticize the Israeli
Speaker 3: government than we do here in America.
Speaker 1: For real.
Speaker 3: I think we are very quick on this side of
Speaker 3: the water to try and condense whoever we don't like
Speaker 3: into being some like enemy of thought, into being this
Speaker 3: person who is being driven by hate. But these people
Speaker 3: are in Israel, and many of them are Jewish, some
Speaker 3: of them are Muslim, some of them are whatever, you know,
Speaker 3: and they I think have probably they're closest to the conflict.
Speaker 3: They have primary sources. And that's what I've been using
Speaker 3: to stay up to date, you know. And one thing
Speaker 3: that I that I think is really that I think
Speaker 3: really conveys what I'm trying to argue here, which is
Speaker 3: at the very beginning, a bunch of different organizations at
Speaker 3: Harvard issued the statement. You know, some people thought it
Speaker 3: was bad taste to write after this terrorist attack, try
Speaker 3: to create context for what happened by saying that there
Speaker 3: was no peace for Palestinians on October sixth, and that
Speaker 3: you know, some people have like said that it's not
Speaker 3: right to victim blame and tell people who were killed
Speaker 3: in a terrorist attack that they had it coming. But
Speaker 3: since day one, Harriet's has been doing that kind of work,
Speaker 3: writing about how the conception of these kabbutzas being on
Speaker 3: the border was meant to withstand a first wave of
Speaker 3: explosion after you know, the establishment of Gaza as this
Speaker 3: like cut off like entire like insular. People call it
Speaker 3: an open, open air prison, and that these good books
Speaker 3: will put here strategically, and you know, these are Israeli
Speaker 3: writers who are digging into the history, who understand this
Speaker 3: stuff better than we do. So I think in this country,
Speaker 3: if you want to consume media and be closer to this,
Speaker 3: I would say Harriet's is braver and they're doing some
Speaker 3: of the best work right now.
Speaker 1: Amazing. Well, Aimen, it's my We really appreciate you coming on.
Speaker 1: Do we do it?
Speaker 3: I didn't even cry once, man, look at it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, made it through. We truly appreciate it. Where where
Speaker 1: can people find you? Fill you read you all that
Speaker 1: good stuff.
Speaker 3: They can find me at Slate dot com. I'm not
Speaker 3: using X because I do not want to get canceled.
Speaker 3: So I'm not on social media's right now. But you can,
Speaker 3: you know, get it become a Slate plus member. We're
Speaker 3: doing a lot of really really great work.
Speaker 1: Amazing And is there a work of media that you've
Speaker 1: been enjoying.
Speaker 3: I've been I don't know this counts, but just look
Speaker 3: at their old family photos.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been feeling like really unstable. I need to
Speaker 3: take more mental health days.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I've been going up and like looking at my kids
Speaker 3: when they were younger, and it just cheers me up
Speaker 3: and it cracks me up. And I have so many
Speaker 3: videos of them being silly. My kid is riding a
Speaker 3: scooter now, he's like two years old. So he's like,
Speaker 3: does this thing where he arch, He like pulls it
Speaker 3: to the side and he pulls one leg and he
Speaker 3: tries to point it up, and I think it's like
Speaker 3: I imagine in his in his head, he's probably like
Speaker 3: that leg is touching the clouds. Man, He's like, but
Speaker 3: in reality it's just sort of like, you know, it's
Speaker 3: just a little bit.
Speaker 1: You can see it all on their face. That's what
Speaker 1: they're so unguarded.
Speaker 3: You know, and it cracks me up.
Speaker 1: Man, that's so funny, you know, yeah, amazing, Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: thank you. I know that's not like a like you know,
Speaker 1: it's a that's that's what's helping me go back and
Speaker 1: look at just Yeah, there's there's this app on your
Speaker 1: phone called photos. Go back and look through some old ones, folks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's good advice. Miles, where can people find you as
Speaker 1: their working media you've been enjoying?
Speaker 2: Yeah, find me at Miles of Gray, wherever they take
Speaker 2: the at symbols. Find Jack and I on our basketball
Speaker 2: podcastles boostis where you know, take a break from the
Speaker 2: reality of our world event healthscape and just zoom in
Speaker 2: on the NBA and that hellscape. And then also you
Speaker 2: can find me on four to twenty Day Fiance. We're
Speaker 2: talking about ninety day Fiance. Another way I distract myself.
Speaker 2: Some media works in media, I like, Okay, I got
Speaker 2: a couple first, a literal work of media. Producer Justin
Speaker 2: was like, yo, have you seen Blue Eye Samurai yet?
Speaker 2: On Netflix? And I was like, you know what, I
Speaker 2: know of it, but I have not seen it. I
Speaker 2: watched it. It's pretty dope. It's about a biracial child
Speaker 2: in like, you know, sixteen hundreds Japan, because if you
Speaker 2: were biracial then you were considered a fucking monster. So
Speaker 2: just kind of like looking at that, but it's like
Speaker 2: a dope like animated Samurai k tale uh. And also
Speaker 2: another tweet was actually from a past guest, doctor John
Speaker 2: Paul at Doctor John Paul, where just posted a picture
Speaker 2: of Barney well like like one is like a Barney
Speaker 2: promo image, while another one was just someone like at
Speaker 2: a birthday party, I said, Lord Barney is on that stuff.
Speaker 2: And then someone someone quoted that at Sleep to Dream
Speaker 2: and said Ozembic is hitting every corner of the entertainment industry.
Speaker 1: Damn he's got that big head.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, o face.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore. O'Brian
Speaker 1: a tweet I've been enjoying flea at Flee three point
Speaker 1: thirty three. I don't know if that's the flea or not, tweeted.
Speaker 1: The great thing about the thong song is you can
Speaker 1: really feel his earnest yearning to see that thong person.
Speaker 1: I know, I'm just double checking this person.
Speaker 2: It's not like three and eighty nine thousand follows, I think.
Speaker 2: And also talking shit about the clippers that feels like
Speaker 2: fleet Yeah, okay cool and if not, hey, that's what
Speaker 2: the account was.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at daily Zeikeuys, read
Speaker 1: the Daily zeike Guys on Instagram. We have Facebook fan
Speaker 1: page on a website Daily zeikeus dot com. We've post
Speaker 1: our episodes and our footnotes no where we link off
Speaker 1: to the information that we talked about in today's episode,
Speaker 1: as well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Miles,
Speaker 1: what song do you think people might enjoy?
Speaker 2: Let's go out in some like just nice aggressive, kind
Speaker 2: of just at nineties garage band rock kind of vibes.
Speaker 2: This is a track I discovered on Instagram where this
Speaker 2: dude just like walks up to people and like Washington
Speaker 2: Square Park and he's like, hey, do you make music?
Speaker 2: Until someone says yes, and then just like promotes whatever
Speaker 2: they're making. And he found a person who was friends
Speaker 2: with the lead singer of this band called Farmer's Wife.
Speaker 2: And this track is called Greg Abbott's Maxi Pat. But
Speaker 2: let me tell you, this shit is a there's a
Speaker 2: fucking there's a riff in it that I love so much.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: It just it's like it's just good, just some like
Speaker 2: rock that got you, get you going, like some Pixies
Speaker 2: demo type ship. But anyway, this is Diddy would have
Speaker 2: stolen it and put big over oh yeah yeah, and
Speaker 2: like would have slowed it down. Yeah yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 2: this is Greg Abbott's Maxi pad by Farmer's wife.
Speaker 1: All right, we'll link off to that in the foot notes,
Speaker 1: as well as Harrot's and other stuff we were talking
Speaker 1: about that's going.
Speaker 3: And this Twitter post that I just sent you to
Speaker 3: in the chat. Yeah, just throw that in there at
Speaker 3: the bottom and be like, yo Emon wants you to see.
Speaker 1: This, all right, go man, man, that's gonna do it
Speaker 1: for us this morning. We're back this afternoon to tell
Speaker 1: you what is trending, and we will talk to you
Speaker 1: about right