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Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season three thirteen, Episode

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Speaker 1: two of ESAI Guys Day production of iHeartRadio. This is

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Speaker 1: a podcast where we take a deep dive into America's

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Speaker 1: share consciousness. And it is Tuesday, November fourteenth, twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean National seatbelt Day, buckle up, buttercup or

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Speaker 2: chuckle fuck or whatever the Elon musk fucking chat thing

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Speaker 2: wanted you to say. Also, World Diabetes Day, National Pickle Day,

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Speaker 2: National Spicy guacamoly Day. I don't know if there's one

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Speaker 2: for regular guak and one for the real ones. Oh,

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Speaker 2: you're a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Of hot key, like, there's like multiple national guacamole Days.

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Speaker 2: Just yeah, I love wackamole.

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Speaker 1: It's a great sport. Yeah. Yeah. We have been lobbying

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Speaker 1: to get it into the Olympics for a long time.

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Speaker 2: Family PJ Day is that's just I guess for families

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Speaker 2: to just put them put on your favorite pajamas and

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Speaker 2: have a little party. Yeah, I guess, because it's getting cold. Sure, Sure,

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Speaker 2: I don't have.

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Speaker 1: Any open auditions for the Christian Nightmares Twitter threat. I

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Speaker 1: feel like family Pajamas with my family has matching pajamas.

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Speaker 1: They're pretty cute, good for you, good, feel good for you,

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Speaker 1: good for you. My name is Jack O'Brien aka. I

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Speaker 1: always feel like my toilet ski bd, but I don't

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Speaker 1: know what that means. Oh or I always feel like

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Speaker 1: my wife is judging me, and I swore it wasn't.

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Speaker 3: P oh.

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Speaker 1: I always feel like my wife is judging me, but

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Speaker 1: I said it whistler p oh. That is courtesy of Connie.

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Speaker 1: We are on the discord. I am so sorry for

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Speaker 1: not knowing how to pronounce that, but the ak was

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Speaker 1: on point. I'm thrilled to be joined as always by

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Speaker 1: my co host, mister Miles Gras.

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Speaker 2: Miles Grave, just keep it as simple. The Lord of

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Speaker 2: Lankorsham and Black and Mese experimental artist, your boy Kusama.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on this day

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Speaker 2: of day.

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Speaker 1: It was a Tuesday. Yeah, it's Tuesday. It's Tuesday. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, Garfield had some things to say about Mondays,

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Speaker 1: But what about Tuesdays? Am I right with Heathcliff. We

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Speaker 1: need somebody to step up and talk about how Tuesday?

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Speaker 2: Did Kathy have something to say about Tuesdays?

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Speaker 1: Am I right? Well, Miles, we are thrilled to be

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Speaker 1: joined in our third seat by an award winning staff

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Speaker 1: writer for Slate whose work focuses on identity and religion,

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Speaker 1: and who has been doing invaluable reporting on what is

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Speaker 1: happening in Israel right now. He's appeared on CNN, NPR,

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Speaker 1: most importantly this show, He's been featured in The New

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Speaker 1: York Post, ad Week, God, the Huffing It Post. Please

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. Ay Man, it's my.

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Speaker 4: I said, what's happening, Welcome Lake so long bro mmmmmmmmm,

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Speaker 4: I know, I know, man, I know, we were just talking.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I was like, it's been a minute,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, we got to have you back.

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Speaker 2: And I ship is so fucking horrible wherever you look.

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Speaker 2: And I know, with the work that you do, having

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Speaker 2: such proximity to what's happening and Gaza and the West

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Speaker 2: Bank and everything, I know it's very difficult. So like, honestly,

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Speaker 2: I really we really appreciate it coming on because it's

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Speaker 2: not easy.

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Speaker 3: But I'm really glad you guys aren't afraid to talk

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Speaker 3: about it. I've been listening to the show and you

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Speaker 3: guys have had some of the best critiques, responses and

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Speaker 3: the most fiery rhetoric. So shout out to you guys

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Speaker 3: for for keeping it up and for inviting me for real.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, it's just you, yeah, man. And and again

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Speaker 2: I think it's also important, like we've had, you know,

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Speaker 2: like guest so to speak about what's been going on.

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Speaker 2: But I think also one thing we've talked about really

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Speaker 2: consistently is how the media is portraying things and how

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Speaker 2: consent is being manufactured for some really grizzly awful things

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Speaker 2: we do. You want to call it genocide, ethnic cleansing,

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Speaker 2: war crimes, whatever, pick pick one. So I think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: having your insight today is also going to be really

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Speaker 2: invaluable for not just us but everybody listening. So again, man,

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Speaker 2: I know it's thank you. Yeah, I know how difficult

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Speaker 2: it is to talk about this stuff too, but honestly,

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Speaker 2: we just yeah, we're glad to have you, man, We're glad.

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Speaker 3: To have I've got it. I've got one check, I've

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Speaker 3: got one in the chamber already. So just let me know.

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Speaker 3: First of all, let me answer your first question. I

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Speaker 3: condemned Hamas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, okay, uh huh oh good, I'm glad you

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Speaker 1: saw that in the dock. But does he condemn.

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Speaker 2: Hamas to condemn them. Okay, Now it's a weird.

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Speaker 1: Because it sounds like I'm coming back and like saying

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Speaker 1: that is a response. But that was the first thing

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Speaker 1: written in the dock. But do you sir? However, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: I haven't said anything yet. However, do you you, sir?

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Speaker 3: What's really It's crazy? It's been crazy watching It's been

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Speaker 3: crazy watching the news because you know, the contrary to

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Speaker 3: what most people say, I think we still are in

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Speaker 3: the golden age of media. There are still there are

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Speaker 3: so many amazing reporters who are doing such amazing work.

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Speaker 3: It's just incredible the kind of work that's coming out

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Speaker 3: right now. However, at the same time, there are some

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Speaker 3: of the worst work. But anyways, what I'm trying to

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Speaker 3: say is that it's people who are working journalism now

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Speaker 3: know the game. They know how to keep their skepticism,

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Speaker 3: they know how to draw out the story in an

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Speaker 3: interesting way. What I can't understand is how when it

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Speaker 3: comes to just this one thing, whenever it comes to Palestine,

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Speaker 3: everybody forgets all their training. It's like we're starting from

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Speaker 3: scratch just now. It just drives me nuts seeing so

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Speaker 3: many people make so many mistakes taking the Israeli militaries

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Speaker 3: narrative as fact and casting doubt and shadow into anything

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Speaker 3: on the like on the other side, regardless of who

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Speaker 3: it's coming from, which to me is like you guys,

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Speaker 3: see what you're doing, right, but you see it everywhere

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Speaker 3: and it's been driving me nuts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is it a mistake at that point? Like is

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Speaker 1: it or is it just kind of their marching orders

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Speaker 1: and what they think they have to do like at

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Speaker 1: this point, you know, but yeah, it's a the fucking

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Speaker 1: nightmare out there. Before we get into all of it,

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Speaker 1: we do like to get to know our guests a

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Speaker 1: little bit better and ask you, what is something from

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Speaker 1: your search history that's revealing about who you are?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So everything in my search history right now is

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Speaker 3: from just typing in the names of articles and wayback

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Speaker 3: machine because I do not have subscriptions to things. So

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Speaker 3: what I do is I use proxies to get around

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Speaker 3: pay walls to read everything from Herot's to The New

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Speaker 3: York Times to everything I know. The journalists didn't say

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Speaker 3: that subscribes to Slate Plus and all that.

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Speaker 1: You're the reason why I subscribed to Slate Plus.

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Speaker 3: So I'm I'm on there, dude.

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Speaker 2: I got I got subscribed. I subscribed twice to sleep

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Speaker 2: how much? How much? With the vision? But now I

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Speaker 2: get that, dude, that sound like whenever I see it,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, please be an archive fucking post of this article.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, because I'm not giving money the Wall

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Speaker 2: Street Journal to find out about how workers are wrong

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Speaker 2: about everything. Yeah, it's it's out there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, every everything in my sorry twister right now is

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Speaker 3: either that or trying to like convert times, like it's

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Speaker 3: it's so hard to keep track of, like what time

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Speaker 3: everything is happening because guys, the time London time, every

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Speaker 3: every single spot has its own right time, and I

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Speaker 3: really need that to stop.

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Speaker 2: I need to.

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Speaker 3: I needed like some kind of uniform time please.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no matter what it's like, Yo, it's noon, it's like,

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Speaker 2: but if it's actually three a m. For us? No, man,

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Speaker 2: we're doing one clock for new rule.

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Speaker 1: No time zones everywhere, there are people who are everywhere

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Speaker 1: to just put in parentheses New York time zone please.

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Speaker 2: Oh right right right? Yeah yeah, yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 1: I feel like people whould get used to that. Just

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Speaker 1: be like, what time is it here? Oh, it's it's

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Speaker 1: always the same time. It's always the same time, but

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Speaker 1: here it's dark out when it's three pm. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Time zones were invented for trains. We're

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Speaker 1: over that shit, We're not like, well how about that

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Speaker 1: over here? It's a little bit different, right, feel I

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Speaker 1: feel like I don't know, has anybody ever pitched that

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Speaker 1: I could? Like, I bet there's a think piece worth

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Speaker 1: writing about, like if there was a uniform time, things

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Speaker 1: would actually run more efficiently, right, who knows though?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Oh and if you want to have a funnier one.

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Speaker 3: So in my story's history, there's a whole block around

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Speaker 3: like five o'clock where it goes rainbow wail, octopus, octopus, shark, shark. Sure, yeah,

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Speaker 3: of course. So this was my son pointing at the

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Speaker 3: screen and wanting to summon things like it was magic

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Speaker 3: and yeah, oh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, show up.

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Speaker 1: They call it chrome, My kids call it Can we

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Speaker 1: do Chrome? I'm just like, all right, let's do Chrome,

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Speaker 1: And they just tell me what to search and it's

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Speaker 1: just Google Image search history.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because I feel like for them it's like magic

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Speaker 3: school Bus, like we're making things appear in there.

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Speaker 1: Right, Magic school bus still goes too, Like they they

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Speaker 1: really we got a recent bedtime story from the like

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Speaker 1: old school Magic School Bus days, and they are They're

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Speaker 1: into it. They're referencing various characters. They're referencing like little

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Speaker 1: bit jokes for a minute, So shout out to the

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Speaker 1: Magic school Bus. Still holding up?

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Speaker 2: You know, did you show them the nineteen eighty seven

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Speaker 2: hit film Innerspace.

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Speaker 1: No, we haven't done Interspace yet. I need to put

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Speaker 1: that on my toe to watch that ship.

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Speaker 2: I remember that was like when I saw the Magic

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Speaker 2: School Bus when they win the body, I'm like, bro,

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Speaker 2: this is inner space. I saw this shit when I

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Speaker 2: was a kid, like so I felt that they were

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Speaker 2: ripping off innerspace when they would go inside the body.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, seen it, seen.

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Speaker 1: This, Yeah, that's fun. Yeah. Because my one son is

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Speaker 1: like obsessed with the digestive system because I think he

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Speaker 1: recognizes that it ends up in Pooh, but like from

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Speaker 1: very early age, he like first thing he wants to

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Speaker 1: see what if he like gets around Google image search

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Speaker 1: or you know, an encyclopedia, he's looking up like some animals.

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Speaker 1: Digestive system is weird, so similar similar searches, but it

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Speaker 1: would just be octopus digestive system, unicorn digestive system, right,

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Speaker 1: how and that's how Rainbow Sherbert is made.

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Speaker 2: You know, like Campbell's got like multiple stomachs. Doesn't know

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Speaker 2: about that ship.

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Speaker 1: Yet, I don't think so fucking blows mind man. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: told you more on the parenting stuff innerspace and Cammell's

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Speaker 1: multiple nothing.

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Speaker 2: To do with parenting, just like my weird stoner memory.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, you want this one to inner space.

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Speaker 2: You gave me my favorite books that star Wars, like

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Speaker 2: technical Technical Manual Yeah, technical man, Yeah, he's stall mend

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Speaker 2: that heavy. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: What uh? What is something you think is overrated?

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna say cousins say cousins are overrated. Wow, Yo,

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Speaker 3: here's why. Here's why. I have cousins in Egypt, and

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Speaker 3: I told them I'm coming, and so far they've given

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Speaker 3: me like they've asked your three iPhones, they've asked jeans,

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Speaker 3: they got your boots. I love my cousins and I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna try my hardest to get him everything.

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Speaker 2: But like god damn, yeah yo, but you're what you

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Speaker 2: over there?

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Speaker 3: Bro. I know I'm gonna getting iPhone fourteen's and just

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Speaker 3: be like this one just came out.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, Bro, I'll send you. You can have my I got.

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Speaker 2: I'm about to I think I have to switch mine now.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, yo, I'll send you wine off the strength

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Speaker 2: you picture like I was in a case. Shit looked clean, you.

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Speaker 1: Know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: My cousin will, My cousin will be ever grateful. I'll

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Speaker 3: tell you that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, well we'll talk after.

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Speaker 1: But I would give you mine because I'm about to upgrade.

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Speaker 1: But mine is the one that gives your balls radiation

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Speaker 1: when you put it in your.

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Speaker 2: Poll on twelve yeah, twelve yeah, yeah, Hey, it's fine.

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Speaker 2: It's a low level of radiation.

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Speaker 1: Radioactive, radioactive.

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Speaker 2: I remember like in Japan, my cousins always asked for vitamins.

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Speaker 1: That's wild.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, socials, that's right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like, we don't have supplements like that out here.

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Speaker 2: And they're like, yo, you give me. I was like,

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Speaker 2: what for real, go to Trader Joe somewhere, bring up

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Speaker 2: big ass thing, a fucking vitamin scene ship. People are like,

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Speaker 2: oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: You're like, I'll get you the newest any S game.

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Speaker 1: They're like yeah, they're like we're on PlayStation six. Man,

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Speaker 1: it's like nine and we're on the PlayStation. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I won't even have that ship till twenty eight, twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty eight.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're headed the Egypt.

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Speaker 3: I'm headed to Egypt in a month for my daughter's

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Speaker 3: first birthday. We went to Egypt for my son's first birthday,

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Speaker 3: and so we got to introduce from the family. And

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Speaker 3: I think it's really important to like take somebody when

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Speaker 3: they're really really young. So I think I feel a

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Speaker 3: little bit, you know, tied to it take some pictures.

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Speaker 3: I met the Pyramids on the Nile'll do all that

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Speaker 3: fun stuff. I mean, this is part of the reason

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Speaker 3: why I'm a photographer in the first place. So I

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Speaker 3: picked up photography after like going through all of my

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Speaker 3: family's old photos and seeing all these pictures of myself

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Speaker 3: being young, family in Egypt that I hadn't seen in

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Speaker 3: a long time, and I remember feeling like this was

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Speaker 3: the most important, the most valuable thing I have in

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Speaker 3: my whole family, Like I want these pictures. And so

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Speaker 3: I picked up photography, thinking I need to document everything,

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Speaker 3: like everything is valuable, and now that I have a kid,

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Speaker 3: like number one on every single list is just document, document, document,

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Speaker 3: I'm taking a crazy amount of photos. I'm like really

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Speaker 3: going hard on that end. And so we did it

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Speaker 3: for the first kid. Now we got to do it

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Speaker 3: for the second kid. Pictures Like literally the first thing

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Speaker 3: I do when I go to anybody's house is I

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Speaker 3: dump my baby on their lap and say, all right,

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Speaker 3: smile taking a.

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Speaker 2: Picture like you you might be famous. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to tell my kids like they held you this baby.

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Speaker 3: It makes a difference, man, Like I remember like seeing

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Speaker 3: all these pictures and being excited being like, who's that

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Speaker 3: holding me? Like who is this I'm not don't even

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Speaker 3: know who this person is. And my mom will be like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's your cousin. Yeah he lived in Japan for a while.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's your aunt. Yeah, she taught me English when

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Speaker 3: I was a little kid. Like all that stuff made

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Speaker 3: me feel so much more real. And so when I

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Speaker 3: got to see them for the first time when I

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Speaker 3: started going to Egypt with my own money, when I

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Speaker 3: got a job, I was trying to go like at

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Speaker 3: least every year, and meeting those people felt so much

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Speaker 3: more exciting, Like I felt connected to them, and I

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Speaker 3: recognized streets and like, I'm telling you, this box that

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Speaker 3: my mom gave me a photos is just like a

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00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,360
Speaker 3: gigantic cardboard box just loose photos thrown into it, and

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Speaker 3: so just that trevsure trove and going in and discovering

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Speaker 3: and trying to match up which photos are taking a

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Speaker 3: which camera because of the shape of the print. Everything

294
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Speaker 3: has been Oh wow, okay, like one of the most

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Speaker 3: enjoyable things I have ever resent in my life. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I just wanted to be able to recreate that from

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Speaker 3: my kids.

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Speaker 2: That's like, because we live in such an era of

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Speaker 2: like digital photography and not printing shit anymore, and like

300
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Speaker 2: I so so many memories are like just having these

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Speaker 2: like same like forty photos in my house, Like growing up,

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Speaker 2: Thata was like, yeah, that's my grandma. Yeah, that's my

303
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,000
Speaker 2: great grandma or whatever that you kind of have these

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Speaker 2: reminders and to your point, like asking questions because that

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Speaker 2: actually helps your parents, like help my parents like jar

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Speaker 2: their job there memory memory, and then actually begin sharing

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Speaker 2: things that are that are a little bit further like hey,

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Speaker 2: your grandmother was you know, she was a fantastic woman.

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Speaker 2: We're like, oh shit, oh okay, this is this is

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Speaker 2: my uncle. He only talked in rhyme because when they

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Speaker 2: were kids, somebody threw a bullet in the fireplace and

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Speaker 2: it hit him in his head. And now he can

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Speaker 2: only speak in rhymes. Yeah, like shit like that where

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Speaker 2: my grandfather was like, let me tell you about him. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I definitely like pictures are such a yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: they're like it's it's so wild, like because now we

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Speaker 2: can take pictures like at will. It's wild that we

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Speaker 2: don't cherish them the same way we did when we

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Speaker 2: were printing film. So yeah, you really got to lean

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Speaker 2: into having that ship printed for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's a lot of spots that still do

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Speaker 3: it for super cheap, Like I use my local CBS

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Speaker 3: because they have like a printer and so I'll just

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Speaker 3: like send them a batch of like one hundred of

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Speaker 3: my favorite ones.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I do whatever at the at the end of every

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Speaker 3: year when I have like a sale on Black Friday

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Speaker 3: or oh it's coming up. But yeah, I'm doing that

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Speaker 3: every single year just because I love having the physical copy. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and I like making little photo albums and keeping them

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Speaker 3: out like on the countertop to so the kids can

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Speaker 3: explore it, because now that they're getting older they love

335
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:38,880
Speaker 3: to flip through it too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,520
Speaker 3: But also you know, it's it's special to me to

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00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,520
Speaker 3: have like a little book of being like this is

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00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,680
Speaker 3: your first year alive, you know, yeah that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: God, damn, I should really do that.

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Speaker 3: I just gift ideas Christmas is coming up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like all the like conscientious like people I know,

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Speaker 1: like people who are just like very mindful, like you

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00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,680
Speaker 1: know my sister or like, you know, we we have

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00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,320
Speaker 1: these friends. They always have like these photograph books of

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00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,280
Speaker 1: like this was our trip to this place and this

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00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,880
Speaker 1: was you know, like they just and it's so beautiful.

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00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,760
Speaker 1: And every time I'm like many doing that yesterday, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I never get myself to do it.

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Speaker 2: And you know, you probably got so many photos on

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00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,080
Speaker 2: the phone and ship easy. Just got to go through it, right.

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Speaker 1: I love going back through the picture. But there's also

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00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 1: something unnerving when I'm like, I don't remember them looking

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Speaker 1: like this, Like I'm taking the picture, I'm talking to them.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember this interaction. I don't remember them ever

356
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Speaker 1: sounding like that, because you just it's so it's just

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00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 1: you know, you you see them every single day like constantly,

358
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Speaker 1: and they're all you think about. And so yeah, it's

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00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:48,399
Speaker 1: it's weird.

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Speaker 3: You're your dad's.

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00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,800
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. What is something you think is underrated?

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna say cousins.

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Speaker 2: Go on.

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00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,080
Speaker 3: You know, after after saying that, I felt, I felt

365
00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,480
Speaker 3: really bad because I do love my cousins. Of course,

366
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,159
Speaker 3: of course, like they they're you know, they can't like

367
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,920
Speaker 3: afford because like the different economies is in the fucking

368
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,760
Speaker 3: ship hole right now. So what they're gonna do to

369
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,240
Speaker 3: pay me back is like set up trips for me

370
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,119
Speaker 3: and my family. So one of them is going to

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00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,679
Speaker 3: set up like a Nile cruise for us. The other

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00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,480
Speaker 3: one is going to set up like maybe a backpacking

373
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,639
Speaker 3: trip somewhere. Like they're also going to pick us up

374
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,280
Speaker 3: from the airport, take care of us, pampa us, like

375
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,680
Speaker 3: they do that every trip. Regardless, they don't even do

376
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,439
Speaker 3: it for the gifts. It's just that the gifts for

377
00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,000
Speaker 3: me is like a way to pay them back and

378
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,720
Speaker 3: show appreciation. So yeah, no, I really should be talking

379
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,800
Speaker 3: about these cousins, man. They're really like the reason.

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00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:38,040
Speaker 1: Why I go.

381
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:40,480
Speaker 2: And I know they listen. Yeah, yeah, shout out to

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00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,040
Speaker 2: your yea yeah yeah, they don't speak anyone, they're listening.

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00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:49,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, one listeners. Amazing. All right, let's take a

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00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,080
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and we'll come back and

385
00:18:52,119 --> 00:19:05,440
Speaker 1: we'll get into it. We'll be right back, and we're back.

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00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:06,639
Speaker 2: We are, And.

387
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,359
Speaker 1: Since October seventh, we've been we've been talking about the

388
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,159
Speaker 1: perplexing way the media has been has been covering this,

389
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:20,240
Speaker 1: the discounting to the lives of Palestinian people, innocent innocent

390
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,480
Speaker 1: Palestinian people and children, but just generally just the rules

391
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,639
Speaker 1: of engagement seem to have changed kind of in the

392
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,600
Speaker 1: in the mainstream media. But aiman you know, you are

393
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 1: seeing seeing this happening, and you know, as a member

394
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,160
Speaker 1: of the media, like covering, I'm just curious to get

395
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:45,120
Speaker 1: your perspective on like what what what has been happening?

396
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,040
Speaker 1: What are you seeing behind the scenes, And then like

397
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,879
Speaker 1: how's that affecting how we're hearing about or not hearing

398
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 1: about what's happening in Israel?

399
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, No, this is a media literacy is everything

400
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:04,439
Speaker 3: these days because because it's equally important to create good

401
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,080
Speaker 3: journalism as it is for the audience to know how

402
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 3: to read and interpret like good journalism. So what I

403
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 3: mean is this right. I'm really really upset by the

404
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,960
Speaker 3: way that I have like younger siblings a lot, Like

405
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,159
Speaker 3: my wife's siblings are like much younger than she is.

406
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,200
Speaker 3: So I have one that just graduated high school, another

407
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 3: one who's in college, and you know, they get all

408
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 3: of their news from social media. They only know what's

409
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 3: going on through TikTok and through Instagram, And I feel

410
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,399
Speaker 3: like a lot of people don't really know how to

411
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 3: distinguish between people just posting things opinion news clips of

412
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,000
Speaker 3: commentators from the actual journalism, which are like first hand

413
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 3: accounts people on the ground doing journalism. And it's like

414
00:20:55,359 --> 00:21:00,360
Speaker 3: equivocating between being like an activist talking about out what's

415
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 3: happening and being a journalist and trying to report the

416
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,200
Speaker 3: facts as they are has been driving me nuts. So

417
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,119
Speaker 3: there's two things happening when we think about how the

418
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 3: media has been like covering this. On the one hand,

419
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:18,160
Speaker 3: I'm seeing so much misinformation and disinformation spreading like crazy

420
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 3: on social media. And because everybody's in their own little

421
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,639
Speaker 3: social media bubble, what people on either side are, you know,

422
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 3: And in this case there's a lot more than just

423
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,680
Speaker 3: two sides. But anybody who's consuming media on social media

424
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 3: right now are getting just like this fire hose of information,

425
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 3: and some of it's real and some of it's not,

426
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 3: and some of it's made up, and some of it's

427
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 3: like from ten years ago, repackaged to look like it

428
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 3: was just show yesterday, right, And so you have people

429
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 3: who are Zionist and sympathetic with you know, the IDF

430
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 3: and what they're doing right now to secure Israel, who

431
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 3: are like sharing these videos of like people in body

432
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 3: bags who are wrapped in the white like we've been

433
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,880
Speaker 3: seeing of from Gaza, who are getting up to check

434
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,639
Speaker 3: their phones, you know, because it's like actually a clip

435
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 3: from a protest in Lebanon, you know, or something like that,

436
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 3: but that clip is being repackaged and shared as you know,

437
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 3: evidence of Hamess making up casualties and that the IDEF

438
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 3: is pure hearted and pure intention. But on the other end,

439
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 3: there was a viral clip that went viral, uh maybe

440
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 3: two days ago that supposedly showed like Apache helicopters shooting

441
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,719
Speaker 3: Israelis who were fleeing from their lives when they came

442
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 3: in with those paragliders at the at the music festival,

443
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 3: which is also like you know, repackaged. I think it

444
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 3: was from like the two or three days afterwards when

445
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 3: that clip, when those clips were shot and published by

446
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 3: the IDF showing their attack helicopters attacking militants who were

447
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 3: trying to either flee or take more ground than in Israel.

448
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 3: And so those are two examples.

449
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 1: But they were being passaged to say that this was

450
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 1: Israel shooting, right.

451
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,040
Speaker 3: They were saying, Yeah, the reason why the casualty the

452
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 3: numbers were so high is because the Israelis were also

453
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 3: shooting everybody. Yeah, but there's also you know, I should

454
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 3: also cavey out there. There is like a few kinds.

455
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 3: There's a few eyewitness testimonies of survivors in the kabbutz

456
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 3: who talked about how they were when they were being

457
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 3: taken hostage that Israeli soldier showed up and just started

458
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 3: spring bullets and hit some of their own people. This

459
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 3: is that witness testimony. You can read it about it

460
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 3: on Harriet's But at the same time, the role that

461
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 3: the journalist has to play is to find primary sources

462
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 3: and report it out. And the way that so many

463
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 3: people at prominent outlets that have a humongous responsibility and

464
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 3: outsized responsibility to tell the truth in this in this

465
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 3: particular war where information like this is kind of just

466
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 3: going crazy. This flying over our heads has been catastrophic.

467
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 3: A good example is right after the beginning of the war,

468
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:57,959
Speaker 3: the is the Palestinian ambassador for the PA for London,

469
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 3: was for England, was being interviewed by the BBC and

470
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 3: he just talked about how he lost like seven family

471
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 3: members in an Israeli bombardment. And this guy, you can tell,

472
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 3: was being super stoic. He looked like he was just

473
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 3: crying because he just found this out and he's on

474
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 3: the news ready to talk about what's happening. And the

475
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 3: presenter asked him to condemn ha mess like immediately after

476
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 3: he shared that he lost seven family members. And this

477
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 3: callousness goes beyond what a reporter ought to do. You know,

478
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 3: we should be asking people about what they see, what

479
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 3: they feel, trying to get primary sources to tell us

480
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 3: something about what's happening in front of them. Asking somebody

481
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,719
Speaker 3: who has a wealth of knowledge about being an ambassador

482
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 3: for the PA, not Hames, which is PAS, they run

483
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 3: the West Bank, Hames Ruse, the Gossam. This person is

484
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 3: an ambassador for them, so he he's also lost family

485
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 3: to the bombardment. He's in a unique position to talk

486
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 3: about what's happening from his perspective. But this person who

487
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 3: was interviewing him, this journalist was asking about something that

488
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 3: he's disconnected to a and was trying to make a

489
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 3: moral argument with this person, and that to me felt like,

490
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 3: I don't know, I was disappointed. I was like, you

491
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 3: know how to do this, Like this is your job.

492
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 3: You don't have any problems doing this with any other subject.

493
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 3: Why is it when we come to talking about Palestine

494
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 3: and talking to Palestinians, we skip the part where we're

495
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 3: supposed to interrogate how they're experiencing the world, and we

496
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 3: skip to, well, how do we get that? How do

497
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 3: we hold them accountable for what the other side is saying?

498
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 1: Right?

499
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 3: You don't see that when it comes to those same

500
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 3: people interviewing Israeli ambassadors or Israeli prime ministers. When they

501
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 3: talk to their own people, they say, we are going

502
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 3: to flatten Palestine, we are going to eradicate Hames and

503
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 3: all of its supporters, and they use a lot of

504
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 3: this genocidal rhetoric and they talk about having a second Nekba.

505
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 3: Ministers in the current Israeli government talk this way. But

506
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,719
Speaker 3: when they come on to do these interviews, they asked them, well,

507
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 3: where were you on October seven? Yeah, how are you

508
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 3: affected by this tragedy? Which are you know, I'm not.

509
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 3: I'm not here to like browbeat these people for doing

510
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 3: their job, because those are good questions to ask people

511
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 3: who are going through this and that suffering is real, right,

512
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 3: But where is that when we're talking to Palestinian sources.

513
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 3: Just today, the New York Times put out a piece

514
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 3: and their incredible podcast, The Daily not as good as

515
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 3: the dailies like guess, but you know, if you have

516
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 3: extra time, you can probably artists and a lot of

517
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 3: people might think they can. First Weekend First Thanks. I

518
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 3: was going to say I was gonna make that point,

519
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 3: but you know they were. They did this whole episode

520
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 3: where they talked to God, to gods and doctors, doctors

521
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 3: who are in these hospitals who are operating, and the

522
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 3: host asked one of them, well, the idef is saying

523
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 3: that Hamas is doing X y Z in these hospitals,

524
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 3: like what are you seeing? Which is like a good

525
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 3: question to ask. But the people who are just being

526
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 3: constantly asked to take these political arguments that one side

527
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 3: is making in it and trying to rationalize them and

528
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: trying to breathe air and to them and give oxygen

529
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 3: to them. The guy had a meltdown man. He freaked out.

530
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 3: He was like, Yo, we are having to choose which

531
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 3: kids die and which kids live. We don't have enough

532
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 3: resources to give kids who need amputations any kind of anesthesia,

533
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 3: so they are awake and while we're hacking off their

534
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 3: body parts, like you know, the the trauma in this

535
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 3: guy's voice when he was like, why the hell are

536
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 3: you asking me about ha Mesz right now? Was I

537
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 3: think was incredibly emblematic of the what we've done to

538
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 3: these people, you know, by flattening them as being like

539
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 3: this of response to Hames. These people are people, man.

540
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 3: So I would love to see the media make a

541
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 3: better effort at exercising just basic journalism by asking people

542
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 3: about what they see and where they're at, versus trying

543
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 3: to turn everything into a back and forth.

544
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 2: Or its propaganda or they're propagandizing them in real time.

545
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 2: You want to talk about like ha Mess, there's ha

546
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 2: Mess spokespeople who are giving interviews like you can do

547
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 2: that piece if you want to talk to them and

548
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: be like, well, we heard about you know, the fuel

549
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: being withheld from x y Z.

550
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 3: What do you have to say to that?

551
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: You know?

552
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: But there's people who are on the ground, These doctors

553
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 3: who have to sleep in operating rooms, who can't leave

554
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 3: because the flood of people who need help is is

555
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 3: just constant. The people who have brought their own families

556
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 3: to hide in these hospitals too. I mean there are

557
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 3: thousands of people in these hospitals and you can just

558
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 3: imagine the chaos by opening this window and talking to

559
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 3: these people and just asking them about like Hames, it

560
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 3: just drove me nuts. Like you would never see that.

561
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 3: You would never see somebody talking to somebody hiding in

562
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 3: their escape room in the Kibbutz, you know when that

563
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 3: was happening, and if the media were able to get

564
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 3: them on the phone, you would never imagine them being like, well,

565
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 3: what do you think about Natan? Yeah, who's saying the

566
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 3: settlements are about you know that at risk?

567
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: He's putting y'all at risk, right, Because I feel like

568
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: you're saying a.

569
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: Lot of them would say, yeah, hell yes he is.

570
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: Like you know a lot of people feel like those

571
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: policies are not popular, like he's fucking incredibly far right

572
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: and fascist, and like if they were willing to ask

573
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: those fucking questions, I feel like that would also be Well.

574
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 2: It just kind of leaves it leaves out this the

575
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: like not even elephant in the room. The biggest dimension

576
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: of this is oppression. Yeah, and to just skirt by

577
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 2: them be like, well you condemn Hamas, right, Like, let's

578
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 2: just keep let's let's let's keep reinforcing because I see

579
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: this so much in the rhetoric of people who are

580
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: defending what the IDF is doing in the Israeli government,

581
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: of keeping the focus on Hamas about being like free

582
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: these people from Hamas and like that's what it is,

583
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 2: and rather than really like widening out the focus here

584
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 2: to really understand all the dimensions of it. Because to

585
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: your point, like when someone is bringing up these facts

586
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: that would that is, you know, meant to tell a

587
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 2: very human story about Palestinian people. To to then bring

588
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: it to what about Hamas completely just takes the window

589
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: out of that take or what the point someone's trying

590
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 2: to make to just make it purely about right right

591
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 2: there is that? But what about this other thing that

592
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: we can agree is bad? Let's talk about the bad thing,

593
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,959
Speaker 2: because I don't want to keep talking about how innocent

594
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: people are being brutalized through no fault of their own, right,

595
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: I think that's also been really hard to watch too totally.

596
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 3: And what drives me nuts is that these are like allegations, right,

597
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 3: There's been no proof put forth by the Israeli government,

598
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 3: but there's just not enough scrutiny to sort of just say, okay, well,

599
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 3: the Israeli government is saying this is that true? Like

600
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 3: we almost I've seen too many media outlets and journalists

601
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 3: skipping that step and going straight to okay, well, we

602
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 3: need to now ask the other side that this allegation

603
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 3: is being made of to defend themselves for when this out.

604
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 3: I mean, we need to see proof, man, before anything else.

605
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 3: This idea about copaganda, right, this idea that it came

606
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 3: about after the popular Black Lives Matter uprisings across the country,

607
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 3: after George Floyd was killed, where it was obvious that

608
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 3: the police when they issue statements, I think a lot

609
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 3: of people have suddenly realize that they have they are

610
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 3: incentivized to lie, and that you really that first like

611
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 3: that first account that they gave was well, he was

612
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 3: on drugs and he was attacking us, and you know,

613
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 3: he was fighting back and all this stuff that after

614
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 3: you see the clips, you know it's not even close

615
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 3: to being true, and you know, this is I feel

616
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 3: like there's overlaps here, and I think part of the

617
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 3: lesson that we learned there in journalism and in people

618
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 3: who are consuming media is that, you know, the police

619
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 3: are incentivized to protect their own skin. I wish I

620
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 3: could see more of that when we're looking about Palestine.

621
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 3: This idea that Israel has a long track record, not

622
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 3: israel government. I gotta be specific, because Israelis are as

623
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: diverse as anyplace else in the world. Uh they Israeli

624
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 3: government has a long track record of lying. We saw

625
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 3: when they killed the journalist turnebe Uckley. We saw it

626
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 3: when they killed those four boys, those four preteens on

627
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 3: the beach with worship. We saw that with There's like

628
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 3: so many examples man of like them denying that they

629
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 3: did something when they're doing it. So I would love

630
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 3: to see the same amount of scrutiny being like, well,

631
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 3: you're making these claims, we need to see proof or

632
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 3: we need to hold out to see like what everybody

633
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 3: else is saying. Right, Yeah, it feels like we're so

634
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 3: eager to take this narrative and put it out.

635
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: Is there like a dimension because like we talk about

636
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: this all the time, like how especially in American media,

637
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: like there's people can't like grapple with white supremacy or

638
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: systemic oppression, and journalists can't. And a lot of people

639
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: talk about how like it what it takes to actually

640
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: get to a certain newsroom and the and like what

641
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 2: the culture is of a specific outlet that sort of

642
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 2: self filters in a way that you're only going to

643
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 2: get people who are kind of know how to like

644
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: read from the same book when that time comes. Are

645
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 2: you like, do you see it as a dimension of

646
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: just sort of like these ingrained sort of like just

647
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 2: the lack of American curiosity or or about like honestly

648
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: reporting about imperialism or is it like other you know,

649
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: because we see also like these like McCarthy I type

650
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 2: activities that are happening where people if they deign to

651
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: speak out about what's happening that they are people are

652
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 2: coming for their careers and things like that. How do

653
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: you see like what like is it bad habits, is

654
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: it external factors? Is it a combination of things? Like

655
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 2: how do you kind of see like the environment that

656
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: people are operating in when they just take the word

657
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: of an IDF command or be like okay, that's what

658
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: they said. Okay, print that without evidence and we'll just

659
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 2: run to that.

660
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

661
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 3: I mean it breaks my fucking heart.

662
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: Man.

663
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 3: I've been trying to to like not cry all day,

664
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 3: and I'm like fighting it back now because you're what

665
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 3: you said about the lack of curiosity. Really, it like

666
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 3: hit something right in my heart, dude, because that's what

667
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 3: it is. It is, man, It's it's this basic, this

668
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 3: basic reflex that's maybe inside me because I have Arab

669
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 3: heritage or I don't know what it is meant, but

670
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 3: like I cannot, for the life of me, understand why

671
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 3: there's not this curiosity where people are just satisfied with it,

672
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 3: being like it's a religious war and so they're responding

673
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 3: to their religion, and so it makes sense that they

674
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 3: want to eliminate just Jewish people, and they use that

675
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 3: as a way to just justify making claims like what's

676
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 3: made what's on the on the Congress floor recently, that

677
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 3: there is no such thing as a Palestinian civilian, right right.

678
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 3: It's like when the Israeli government says that we're going

679
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 3: to punish the people who are giving out candy or

680
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 3: giving candy or like the people they elected Hamas, and

681
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 3: it's like, where's the curiosity to say, Okay, what are

682
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 3: the poles saying?

683
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: Right?

684
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 3: Because if you look for the poles like you would

685
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 3: for any other community, when you're trying to understand like

686
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 3: what this community is experience and think about how they feel,

687
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 3: there are polls. Man, people go and they do studies

688
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 3: about this stuff. Gaza has been under seeds for like

689
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 3: the greater part of the last twenty years. This has

690
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 3: been like a you know, the curiosity of academics, you know,

691
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 3: people who are going in and finding out, oh, actually,

692
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 3: more than seventy percent of the people in Gaza when

693
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 3: they were asked if peace was option where they want

694
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 3: to live in peace with Israel's their neighbors and seventy

695
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 3: five I don't know the exact number, more than seventy percent.

696
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 3: We're like, yeah, we want peace, but you almost don't.

697
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 3: You don't even see that number quoted anywhere because there's

698
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 3: no curiosity. There's no thought experiment of like, well are

699
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 3: these people like us? Where there were responding to many

700
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 3: different things, there's this idea that is really prevalent. I

701
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 3: think among a lot of writers and journalists that the

702
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: issue is that there's an ideological conflict, right that if

703
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,720
Speaker 3: only each side could just get along, then this problem

704
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 3: would get solved. Right that there are actual partners for

705
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 3: peace on either end of this that are being usurped

706
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 3: by these like radical ideological groups. This is not the

707
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 3: case here, man, This is not the case. What you

708
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 3: said about the the imbalance of power here is everything.

709
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 3: Because I think this really cuts through to how so

710
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 3: many people who are sympathetic with the Palestinian cause actually

711
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 3: feel about this. And it drives me nuts seeing some

712
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 3: of these protests being described that the protests that we've

713
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 3: seen across the country, across the world. I think London

714
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 3: just had the biggest protest ever in its history, and

715
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 3: it was for Palestine. This being condensed as it being

716
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 3: like a pro Hamas rally or an anti Israel rally.

717
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 3: You know, the idea that these people could just be

718
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 3: flattened to like this responding to this one part of

719
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 3: this conflict drives me nuts. Yeah, you know, where's the curiosity,

720
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 3: you mean, said the reporter. Talk to these people, find

721
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 3: out what they're saying. They're filming themselves. They're telling you

722
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 3: what they're saying. The same thing with from the River

723
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 3: to the Sea Palestine will be free. The congresswoman Rashida

724
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: Tslay just got censured by her own colleagues on the

725
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 3: Democratic side, who helped the obviously bad faith right wing

726
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 3: use that rallying cry to punish her. Now, none of

727
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 3: the reporting I've seen makes context of what she was

728
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 3: actually saying in the speech where she said that she

729
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 3: wants peace for everybody. They just took the right wings

730
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 3: word for it that she was calling for genocide. She

731
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 3: was calling for genocide, man, come on, freedom.

732
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

733
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 3: And also the speech, where did she give it? Where's

734
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 3: the curiosity? Where did she give the speech? She gave

735
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 3: it a Jewish voices for peace rally right, Come on?

736
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 3: Like this is basic journalism one oh one that you

737
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 3: will see in every context except for this, And it

738
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 3: makes me want to tear my eye out, man.

739
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 2: I mean, this is what's so difficult to watch after

740
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 2: going through the summer of twenty twenty and understanding how

741
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 2: oppression affects people, and like they were, they were doing this,

742
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 2: like they This is why, like I'm so cynical about

743
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 2: how our media operates, because it's operating not even to

744
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 2: inform people. It's there to just preserve these systems of

745
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 2: oppression under like because these questions that are asked like

746
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: similar to like in twenty twenty, you bear like every

747
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,479
Speaker 2: now and then you'd hear some reporter as somebody who's

748
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: at a protest, why they're there, Like everything was always

749
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 2: like and we're here with the police. Start, we're here

750
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 2: with you know, Sheriff Villanueva, who's telling us about what

751
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: is happening in Los Angeles and getting this perspective that

752
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 2: is meant to just like, to your point, flatten this

753
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: movement into like a very easy to digest, like these

754
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 2: people just like want chaos or something, and it's it's

755
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 2: it's not that great of a thing. Slowly, I feel

756
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 2: like those things changed because I think there are enough

757
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 2: people in America to kind of begin to grapple with

758
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 2: that somewhat. But this also just feels so disgusting and

759
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 2: uncomfortable to because it really pulls out just the inherent

760
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 2: Islamophobia that exists in this country too, because I feel

761
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 2: like it's so eat a lot of people just want

762
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: to reflexively just cast people who, like in Palestine is

763
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 2: being like, yeah, well, you know, like they voted for Hamas,

764
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 2: so that means they're bad and it's that simple, and

765
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 2: that really is so difficult to have to sit through

766
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 2: because to your point, this is all happening while innocent

767
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 2: people are suffering under that, and there's many people want

768
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: to say, well, they're voting for they voted for Hamas. Well,

769
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 2: then what's happening in the West Bank because Hamas is

770
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 2: not in power in the West Bank, the pa is

771
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: you know, and like and so where is that argument now,

772
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 2: because we're only seeing increased violence there as well. But

773
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 2: you know it the again, it's always this lack of

774
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 2: humanity that's extended to these people in such a like

775
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: casual way is really unnerving because you know, it makes

776
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 2: me feel like I'm living in a place where more

777
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 2: more people are like, yeah, some people are just not

778
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: human to me. And that is really really frightening and

779
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: horrific and such a difficult thing to grapple with.

780
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's take a quick break and we'll

781
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: be right back there. Seems like there's a real tension

782
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: between people versus the leaders because amen, as you mentioned,

783
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 1: the polling suggests that Hamas is very unpopular, and you know,

784
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: the the net Yahoo government and the lead up was

785
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: viewed as extreme and you know what was being protested

786
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: throughout Israel, and we're seeing these massive protests for peace

787
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 1: and for like more humane policies and more humane actions

788
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: going forward. But the I don't know, it's when the

789
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: mainstream media covers it. They take the quotes from the

790
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: most these inhumane leaders, and then that becomes sort of

791
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: the marching orders for like the two different sides. When

792
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: it does feel like there are a lot of people

793
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 1: who are seeing the same thing that we're seeing, but

794
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 1: they're just Yeah.

795
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 3: It drives me nuts because it feels like people forgot that.

796
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 3: Right before all this happened, there were thousands of Israelis

797
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 3: protesting against their far right government, and there were also

798
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 3: Palestinians and Gaza protesting. Thousands of people in Gaza protesting

799
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 3: against Hamez, which in that case could be dangerous, right

800
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 3: because we know that Hajmez is they basically rule like

801
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 3: military thugs. They shoot people and they drag their corpses

802
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 3: in the street, and so you have to imagine how

803
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 3: fucking brave these people are for protesting in the streets

804
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 3: and Kaza. Yeah, but that happened. Are they innocent?

805
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 2: Yes?

806
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,720
Speaker 3: Do they want never ending bloodshed? No? They were chanting

807
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 3: we want to live like that was one of the chances. So,

808
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 3: you know, I think all of this context is important.

809
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 3: I realize and I recognize that in the wake of

810
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 3: something like on October seventh, there needs to be room

811
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 3: to grieve. Yeah, and I recognize that that pain is real,

812
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 3: and I wish, I wish the hostages would be set free.

813
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 3: Like all of that, I think there's room for all

814
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 3: of that to also coexist with that same wanting, that

815
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 3: same want for a ceasefire, that same want for people

816
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 3: who are being pummeled to death being bombed eleven thousand

817
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 3: plus not counting the thirteen hundred that are still under

818
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 3: the rubble and unaccounted for. You know, you can't even

819
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 3: digest those numbers. We're parents, right like we we can't

820
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 3: even digest what it's like to be a parent in

821
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 3: Gaza right now. And did you guys hear about this

822
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 3: new acronym that's now being coined in Gaza.

823
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 2: What was it about the children with no parents or

824
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 2: something like that.

825
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 3: The new acronym is WC and SF wounded Child, no

826
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 3: Surviving Family.

827
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what That's what I'm like. Again, I feel

828
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 2: like I'm in the fucking Twilight Zone, man, because I

829
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: don't know how parent or not. You can look at

830
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 2: people who are fucking did nothing, who are trying to survive,

831
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 2: and they're living under an occupation where that's made virtually impossible,

832
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,720
Speaker 2: and then you see the violence that they are experiencing,

833
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: and to like, how do you look at that? And

834
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: then you're brangles, Well, you know, they voted for homic

835
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: Like it's wild that it's it's almost like they're like

836
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 2: people are being trained or like inoculated against being able

837
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 2: to look upon what is happening and arrive at the conclusion,

838
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 2: which is this has to fucking stop. And that's what

839
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 2: is like really unnerving when I see people brush this

840
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 2: kind of shit off to kind of keep like with

841
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 2: their sort of like raw RhE of like the IDF

842
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 2: and and you know, continued violence and yeah, I don't

843
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 2: know that that's where that's where it's it's very It's

844
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 2: just it can be so easy to become nihilistic and

845
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 2: so deeply cynical with all of this. But yeah, I

846
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 2: don't know, Like I mean, I feel like I for me,

847
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 2: like I can only continue to try and bear witness

848
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 2: to it. Because as much as I want to ignore it.

849
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 2: I can't for the life of me think of if

850
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 2: I was in the situation of these people that I

851
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 2: would I would be hoping that they that they're putting

852
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 2: the energy, the thoughts towards kind of some kind of solution,

853
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,320
Speaker 2: that they will use their voices to try and speak

854
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 2: up for me or my family and things like that.

855
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 2: And it's that that simple level of us prosody that

856
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 2: like people can't even get behind is also kind of

857
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's like doing something to me that

858
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 2: I really don't like, because like with every little bit

859
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 2: of people I see not acknowledging others humanity, like, I

860
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 2: feel like part of me becomes callous garth like gets

861
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 2: calloused over and I'm losing a part of it too,

862
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: and just trying to, i don't know, like to to

863
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 2: find and see if the other people are seeing the

864
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: humanity and all of it, you know. So one of the.

865
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 3: Pieces that I did recently, I really like. It's and

866
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 3: it's a series of interviews with people who are losing

867
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 3: their their friendship circles. Right, So I interviewed this one

868
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 3: girl who was friends with this scientist too, this Israeli guy.

869
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 3: She's a Muslim girl, she's Arab and they used to

870
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 3: like talk about how like this Israeli guy grew up

871
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,399
Speaker 3: with Arabic culture a little bit in Israel and would

872
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 3: like send her Arabic songs that she liked and she'd

873
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 3: be like, oh my mom used to make this while

874
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 3: we were making food. Like they had like a friendly relationship.

875
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 3: But then when all of this started, he turned into

876
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,760
Speaker 3: almost like an Internet troll where he was just replying

877
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 3: to all of her Instagram stories where she was sharing

878
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 3: some of what she was happening in Gaza and rationalizing

879
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 3: it and calling her a Hames supporter and all this stuff. Right,

880
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 3: that kind of thing got me curious. I was like,

881
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 3: how is this possible? Man, Like, you know who this

882
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 3: person is, you know that she was friends with you,

883
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 3: You know that you were like that was never an obstacle.

884
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 3: This like overwhelming hatred of Jewish people written large, like

885
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 3: you know that that's not what's in her heart for

886
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 3: a fact, because you guys were friends for years. The

887
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 3: piece doesn't go there. The piece talks about like how

888
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 3: to keep I talked to this person who helped co

889
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 3: found this sisterhood of Shalam Salam where they're like a

890
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 3: friend circle of Jewish women and Muslim women here in

891
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 3: America who like break bread together, hang out together. And

892
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 3: so I was like, tell me how you like hope

893
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 3: with these kinds of like flashpoints where this conflict and

894
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 3: there was like a beautiful article. You can go and

895
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:05,760
Speaker 3: find it and read it. I wrote it, so obviously

896
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 3: I recommend that you do, but it got me. After

897
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 3: writing it. I was thinking, I was like, how is

898
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 3: this even possible? Like, how's this person's instinct not to go, oh,

899
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 3: we have this relationship, how is your heart? Like how

900
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 3: are you feeling? Like? What are you experiencing? How is

901
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 3: it like this this bombing is happening, Like I recognize

902
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 3: your pain as much as I want you to recognize

903
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 3: my pain, And that to me felt like the natural

904
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 3: way to respond to something. And I was like, how's

905
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 3: that possible? And then I was reading this old study

906
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 3: like this, maybe from like ten fifteen years ago, about

907
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 3: how it's possible that if you see the suffering of

908
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 3: a group that you consider to be on the opposite

909
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 3: end of you ideologically, that could actually trigger your pleasure

910
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 3: receptors and your brain. And I need to find this out,

911
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 3: even sending to you guys. But I thought it was

912
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 3: so fascinating that biologically, depending on where we land on

913
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 3: the political spectrum, for some reason, how you experience the

914
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 3: suffering of somebody could be either pain or pleasure. I

915
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 3: was like, what the hell? And I think once I

916
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 3: recognize that, right, it helped me realize what was actually important, right,

917
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 3: not just as a journalist but as a human, which

918
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 3: is like, everybody just wants their pain to be recognized

919
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:27,879
Speaker 3: and to be felt. And this idea that the Palestinian

920
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 3: pain is fake, Like you can just do with Twitter

921
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 3: search for the phrase Pallywood, Yeah, and you'll see so

922
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 3: many rationalizations and justifications for the killings of innocent people

923
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 3: by denying that they're there in the first place, which

924
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 3: is monstrous. But it helped me to recognize that even

925
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 3: if I empathize with one side, I'm not just talking

926
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 3: about Pasti in Israel, but like the idea that we

927
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 3: need to just be better at communicating that we're hurting

928
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 3: right now, that this is fucking painful, what we're going

929
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 3: through right now. To see these kinds of thing that

930
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 3: you know, like this, oh my god, man, like I'm

931
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 3: in so much fucking pain right now. Everybody's in so

932
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 3: much fucking pain right now, Like, why are we not

933
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 3: just giving each other hugs? Man, Like I feel like

934
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 3: we need to do that instead of like trying to

935
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,399
Speaker 3: make each other feel like you're actually manipulated and you're

936
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 3: being lied to, so your pain is fake or oh,

937
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 3: actually I saw a video of a helicopter hitting Israeli,

938
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 3: so your pain is manufactured and fake. But at the

939
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 3: same time, it's like, only one side has the power

940
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 3: to stop this, only one side has the capacity to

941
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 3: make peace. So really, like does any of this actually matter?

942
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 3: Maybe this is just we're going to experience this pain

943
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 3: and just cry it out, man, because I gotta tell you, dude,

944
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 3: as somebody who wants the fighting to stop, and as

945
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,879
Speaker 3: somebody who knows that all of the powers on one

946
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 3: side who can make peace today if they wanted to,

947
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 3: it feels really fucking bleak and hopeless.

948
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, especially when you know you hear things like

949
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 2: from our own government too, or they're like, oh, yeah,

950
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 2: he's fire. I don't know if that's possible, if that's

951
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 2: on the table, and that's the kind of it's kind

952
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 2: of rhetoric that we're hearing from, like people who even

953
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 2: have any kind of leverage in the situation.

954
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 1: What can he do though, He's just he's just surprising it.

955
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: He's just the president. What what? Like, guys, how many

956
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: times does he have to tell you this? He's he's

957
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: just just the president here. He can't do anything.

958
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 2: What do you mean to do?

959
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: What do you what do you want him to do?

960
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 2: The present matter? But vote for me, but vote for me.

961
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: Practically don't matter, but please vote for me. Yeah, it's

962
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 2: I think there's also like this element too of like

963
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 2: sometimes and I just I don't mean to like simplify

964
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 2: what's happening, like interpersonally, right like, and sometimes when we

965
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 2: acknowledge the pain we've inflicted on someone else, there's a

966
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,720
Speaker 2: some you can feel, like an acknowledgment of the transgressions

967
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,359
Speaker 2: that were made. And I think on some level too,

968
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 2: there are probably people who don't want to acknowledge that

969
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,959
Speaker 2: kind of pain because on some level they don't want

970
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 2: to admit that there might be some level of responsibility,

971
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 2: like on from their side too. So it gets locked

972
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 2: into this bizarre fucking thing where people are just more

973
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:24,839
Speaker 2: invested in conspiracy theories than the very very real pain

974
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 2: and suffering that's happening, which We've said on the show,

975
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 2: this is only going to foment more hatred and is

976
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:38,800
Speaker 2: only going to further destabilize this part of the world,

977
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 2: radicalize more people. It's not like so like I'm always like,

978
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 2: what does Israeli government think is going to happen? Like

979
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 2: I'm always like, I can help me even understand the

980
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 2: logic that again, people are just gonna say like, yeah,

981
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: all right, that was an l for us, so you

982
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 2: win and let's just move on with our lives. That's

983
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 2: just not how things work. And so to see that

984
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 2: sort of like for them to continue down this road

985
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 2: when it's so clear to every single person like this

986
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 2: is not this doesn't make anybody safer. It's really also

987
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 2: just so frustrating, and yeah, it leads you to that

988
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 2: point like is it really are we just going to

989
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 2: have to stand by and watch this all go down?

990
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 2: Because everybody in powers is sort of like kind of

991
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 2: or at least in the you know, empirical world, sort

992
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 2: of knows that they're like, yeah, well this is this

993
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 2: is what we're gonna do, and that's just a very

994
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 2: difficult pill to swallow.

995
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:29,919
Speaker 1: Yeah.

996
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,359
Speaker 3: No, one of the one of the most racist things

997
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 3: I've ever seen. No, it's not true. I've seen a

998
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,919
Speaker 3: lot of racist shit, But the one conspiracy that drives

999
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 3: me nuts is this like rationalizing of this ideal ideology

1000
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 3: of hate and death that he mess is instilling in

1001
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 3: their kids. And that's the reason why this conflict is

1002
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 3: going on. Right, you ever see like Israeli leaders talking

1003
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 3: about Hames textbooks and this idea that they hate us

1004
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 3: because their kids are being taught to hate us. It's

1005
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 3: like how removed you have to be from what's happening

1006
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 3: on the ground to accept that as rational. I mean,

1007
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,439
Speaker 3: even like Ben Shapiro floats this kind of thing where

1008
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 3: it's like it's the textbooks. If you got rid of

1009
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,720
Speaker 3: the textbooks, there will be lasting peace in this enclave

1010
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 3: that we've been bombing periodically, that we've been starving and

1011
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 3: calorie counting and you know, mocku line, you.

1012
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: Know what I mean, it's under like under siege occupied.

1013
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 3: It's this idea that like these kids that are going

1014
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 3: through this cannot fathomably respond to the Israeli air bombings.

1015
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 3: You know, if seeing the like that acronym bro the acronym, like,

1016
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 3: what's going to happen to that kid? Right? One of

1017
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 3: the doctors just asked that question. It's like, well, because

1018
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 3: he taught. He mentioned that the hospital that he's in

1019
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 3: that's meant to service like six hundred people, is now

1020
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 3: being occupied by close to two thousand people, and many

1021
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 3: of them are just you know. He said that kids

1022
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 3: wandering and by themselves, and that it's starting to feel

1023
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 3: more like an orphanage than a hospital. The idea that

1024
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,800
Speaker 3: these people who have never seen or met in Israeli

1025
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 3: in their lives, beyond just the bombardment, beyond the people

1026
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 3: at the guard towers, if you could even see them

1027
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 3: from as far as where the line is, where if

1028
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 3: they cross it, they'll get shot. The fact that this

1029
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 3: is their whole relationship with their neighbor for their entire lives. Man, right,

1030
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 3: they have no fucking family left. And you're gonna say

1031
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:34,800
Speaker 3: it's the textbooks Like that to me drives me insane.

1032
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 3: It drives me insane, and I feel like I'm the

1033
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 3: only person who could see through it, because it still

1034
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,800
Speaker 3: feels like in the media sphere, we're still trying to

1035
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 3: find the ideological clash, Like where do these ideologies just

1036
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 3: not settle with each other? Why can't they make peace

1037
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 3: when all you need to do is just look up

1038
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,359
Speaker 3: what Smatra is saying or what Ben Giverer is saying.

1039
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 3: Who are active ministers who are talking about flattening Gaza

1040
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 3: and we are talking about wanting to use Gaza as

1041
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,399
Speaker 3: a freaking water park?

1042
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 1: Right?

1043
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 3: Who deny the fact that Palestinians exist at all?

1044
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 2: Right?

1045
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's like what is going on? Like how

1046
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 3: am I the only person that just sees this shit?

1047
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 2: Man?

1048
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 3: And it's like I really and so I feel like

1049
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 3: all of this has been like ebbing and flowing inside

1050
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 3: of me, and I'm trying to focus. I'm trying to

1051
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 3: get this work done and trying to write these pieces.

1052
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 3: And then you just like get on Twitter because you

1053
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 3: get a notification and then you see this video of

1054
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 3: like this aunt's this aunt digging through like this bag

1055
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 3: of like charred body parts of like two and three

1056
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 3: year olds, like trying to recognize the palm of this.

1057
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 3: She goes, she picks up this like half of an

1058
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 3: arm with a hand attached, and she holds and she

1059
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 3: touches the hand and she goes, this either belongs to

1060
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 3: like we'll see it or no, see like this, you know,

1061
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:04,360
Speaker 3: trying to figure out like whose scalp because it's just

1062
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:08,840
Speaker 3: like hair, like who's who's which baby had hair like this,

1063
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 3: so that they can identify the parts. And then at

1064
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,319
Speaker 3: the same time, you're in your newsroom and you see somebody, right,

1065
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna I don't think I've seen this that slaves.

1066
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna say hypothetically, you're in your newsroom, and

1067
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 3: then somebody writes, Hames run Ministry of Health, as if

1068
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 3: there's like dudes with ipgs and ski masks coming up

1069
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 3: with numbers and not actual trained professionals and doctors with

1070
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 3: international organizations like doctors of the out broorders in the

1071
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 3: room trying to help them account for the dead and

1072
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 3: trying to be as frugal and correct as possible so

1073
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,800
Speaker 3: as not to double count somebody because they got the

1074
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 3: they got the body in pieces, right, they're trying to

1075
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 3: do this work. And then President Biden says, oh, well,

1076
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 3: I have no faith in those numbers. That that grief

1077
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 3: that you're feeling from seeing all of what you're seeing

1078
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 3: with your own eyes is manufactured by Hamas and it's

1079
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,240
Speaker 3: meant to make to trick you into seeing what Israel

1080
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 3: is doing is evil, like this is it just I

1081
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 3: cannot fathom. I cannot fathom anyone who's not outraged by this, right,

1082
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 3: And it just feels like the baseline is if you're outraged,

1083
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 3: it's because you're being tricked into outrage.

1084
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, or you yourself have so much hatred in

1085
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 2: your heart that you're just using this as a vehicle

1086
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 2: to open up some other murky door. Yeah, I mean,

1087
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 2: like the only thing. Yeah, I think the closest thing

1088
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 2: I saw to something resembling, you know, humanly functioning State Department.

1089
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 2: And let's not even get started about the fucking State Department.

1090
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 2: But like apparently there's like an internal memo where a

1091
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 2: lot of like State Department employees are like Joe Biden

1092
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 2: is spreading misinformation on the Israel Hamas war right now

1093
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 2: and like saying, like we're seeing war crimes be committed,

1094
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 2: but we also have a commander in chief who is

1095
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 2: complicit in what is happening there. But again, it's like

1096
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel like it feels like it doesn't matter

1097
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 2: how many people are out in the streets, what the

1098
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 2: how diverse these groups of people are, how numerous it is,

1099
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 2: and you know, how so much of the world is

1100
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 2: on on one side saying we need to help the people,

1101
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 2: these Palestinian people, and have it brushed aside. Yeah, I

1102
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 2: mean it's you know, it reveals just a much darker system.

1103
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean that's always existed, but it like it,

1104
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 2: It really just puts it right in front of you,

1105
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 2: and it makes it feel completely insurmountable, which is so

1106
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 2: fucking hard to deal with.

1107
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1108
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's so dangerous right now to be a

1109
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 3: journalist man, because in this on this side of the world,

1110
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 3: a lot of people are getting fired or being told

1111
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 3: to not report on this stuff because they're they're being

1112
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 3: they're like being active on social media. And part of

1113
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 3: me gets it, being like, yeah, you really shouldn't be

1114
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 3: like advocating for any size if you want to maintain

1115
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 3: any kind of public credibility, public facing credibility, even though

1116
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 3: even if in your heart you feel like you can

1117
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 3: still do your job. But even when we talk about power,

1118
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 3: it's like, you know, there are people who are journalists

1119
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 3: who are accusing other people of like being a mess.

1120
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 3: Run Journalists like this one guy who writes for the

1121
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 3: New York Post still has his job, right, not fires, right.

1122
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 3: They are journalists who are advocating for genocide still have

1123
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 3: their jobs. It just depends on which side you're advocating

1124
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 3: to get genocide. It just I would love to see

1125
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 3: some consistency. But one thing that we haven't talked about

1126
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 3: that I would love to bring up is this like

1127
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 3: feud over the posters, like the kidnap posters. I know

1128
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 3: you guys have talked about it before on the show,

1129
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 3: but there's this idea that you know, if you take

1130
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 3: something down, then you have like hate in your heart

1131
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 3: or you're doing it because you don't recognize that pain.

1132
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:45,920
Speaker 3: And I don't agree with people taking it down. I

1133
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 3: think if he bothers you walk, it's like, especially in

1134
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 3: New York City, do just keep walking, It doesn't matter.

1135
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 3: But like reducing those people to caricatures of like anti semites, really,

1136
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 3: I think you have to avoid the thinking about the

1137
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 3: para name at play the role of postering and how

1138
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 3: this idea of like people who don't have a voice

1139
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 3: can use the walls as canvas to like get their

1140
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 3: message out.

1141
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: You know.

1142
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 3: So even if you want, even if you want people

1143
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 3: to care about those people who are being kidnapped, I

1144
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 3: just don't understand flattening the people who are removing them

1145
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 3: because they're in pain, because they feel like they're being

1146
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 3: sidel sidelined flattening them into being like pro kidnapping. It

1147
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 3: just everything about how we're having this could discourse online

1148
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 3: feels both evil, not evil, It feels disingenuous, but it

1149
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 3: also feels sort of besides the point, because as long

1150
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 3: as the bombardment continues in Gaza, as long as our

1151
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 3: government keeps arming them, giving them the bombs to drop,

1152
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 3: it all just sort of feels like besides the point,

1153
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 3: like who cares? Who cares about these posters? Who cares

1154
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 3: about ripping them down? It's like people are being blown

1155
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 3: to smithereens, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just drives me nuts.

1156
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 1: Man.

1157
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 3: It's like people, I think in America understand what happens

1158
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 3: when you get shot. We have we're like the mass

1159
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 3: shooting capital of the world. We don't understand what it's

1160
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 3: like to have a bomb dropped.

1161
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 2: We don't know what it's like unless you're like a

1162
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 2: maybe like black activist in Philly or something like that, Right,

1163
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 2: I mean we have, Yeah, we have very locksided experiences

1164
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 2: here too, and I think that's why this ship resonates

1165
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 2: with so many people. Like I said this before. Man,

1166
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 2: it's so easy to see through the bullshit if you

1167
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 2: have any kind of experience or proximity to being marginalized

1168
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 2: or oppressed. And it's wild too to just sort of

1169
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 2: see people be like, well, I can't identify with the oppressed,

1170
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 2: so I think I'm more like the people who are

1171
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 2: having like a nice beach time while you know, indiscriminate

1172
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 2: bombing is happening.

1173
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 3: What does proportionality look like? Like, what do you want

1174
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 3: Israel to do? It's like all that is just yeah,

1175
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 3: it feels so annoying. Man, it breaks my heart.

1176
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean in Reday more and more about the

1177
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 1: net NYA who like administration and just how extremely right

1178
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:11,439
Speaker 1: wing it is and how unpopular and like clear eyed,

1179
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 1: a lot of the criticism of that administration is like

1180
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 1: it it does feel like that if there, if there's

1181
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 1: a way that this eventually through just sheer number of

1182
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 1: people continuing to push on the side of humanity, you know,

1183
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 1: like versus these small extreme I know it's very bleak

1184
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 1: right now, but the more I read about just how

1185
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 1: extremely like it's both scary, like how do we get

1186
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 1: to this position where this is who's in power? But

1187
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 1: it's also it feels like a small number of extreme

1188
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 1: militants on both sides are like holding all the power,

1189
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 1: and some how the communication needs to change so that

1190
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 1: it's that that becomes clear, like A yeah, in the

1191
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: way that mainstream media covers it.

1192
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 3: That's an important question. I'm not Palestinian, so I'm like,

1193
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 3: I take my cues from people who are Palestinian and

1194
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 3: Israeli who are working towards peace. You know, there are

1195
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 3: so many, so many Israelis that want peace, and they

1196
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 3: are the vast majority as far as I'm concerned, And

1197
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 3: there are so many Palestinians that want peace, and they

1198
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 3: are the vast majority as far as I'm concerned. The

1199
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 3: people who are wanting all or nothing are the marginalized ones, right,

1200
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 3: but they get all the attention, so it's hard to

1201
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 3: see that sometimes. Yeah, you know, the one piece that

1202
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 3: I've did recently for Slate, I think kind of gets

1203
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 3: at what you're saying a little bit. He's a guy

1204
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 3: who was born in this small village in Area CE.

1205
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 2: Do you guys know what like area areas A, B

1206
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 2: and C are and what you think that's see, Like

1207
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 2: A has like is mostly PA controlled, right, and B

1208
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 2: is like split and then C is all Israeli controlled, right, correct, Yeah,

1209
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 2: so there are so after they made those designations, there

1210
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 2: were still and there still are today areas in Area C.

1211
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 2: Oh wait actually are aiman? Let me let me just

1212
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:23,720
Speaker 2: explain that because I think most people will absolutely have

1213
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 2: no idea, Like I just didn't every cat like as

1214
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 2: we both know. Yeah, okay, because I know that it's

1215
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 2: broken up basically into three parts where the Palestinian authority

1216
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,720
Speaker 2: has like sort of civil control. I mean, why don't

1217
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 2: you break that down? Because I know the levels of

1218
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 2: control for Palestinian people. It varies depending on what zone

1219
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 2: you're in, right.

1220
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Are A is exclusively administered by the PA,

1221
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 3: Area B is administered jointly by the PA and Israel,

1222
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 3: and Area C is administered by Israel. So uh, if

1223
01:04:56,880 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 3: you ever see like that Swiss cheese map showing all

1224
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:02,960
Speaker 3: of these tiny little islands like that are not connected

1225
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 3: to each other at all, those are the Palestinian parts.

1226
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 3: There's all like maybe maybe amount the same sized islands

1227
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:12,960
Speaker 3: that are that are like right in the middle between

1228
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:15,920
Speaker 3: those are be and everything around it, like all the

1229
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 3: big open rural areas are Area.

1230
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:18,919
Speaker 2: See.

1231
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 3: So a lot of the there there's still like a

1232
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 3: hefty amount. So they made these divisions based on population

1233
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 3: mostly when they did made these divisions Israel, this is

1234
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 3: this was all done by the during the Oslo Cords.

1235
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 3: Israel made the case that they needed those rural areas

1236
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:37,439
Speaker 3: to secure their secure peace for themselves and to also

1237
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 3: possibly defend against Jordan or Syria. So like much of

1238
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 3: the eastern side is area see controlled by Israel, there

1239
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 3: are still like Palestinian run farms in Palestinian villages out there.

1240
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:52,640
Speaker 3: And so I interviewed a guy to see like what

1241
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 3: life was like for him out there, you know, in

1242
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 3: area see where he was living. And what he described

1243
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 3: to me was basically night raids being done by not

1244
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 3: soldiers but civilian settlers who are dressed in like camouflage

1245
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 3: soldier fatigues who are armed with American guns, like sixteens,

1246
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 3: who show up at night and they basically zip tie

1247
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:20,720
Speaker 3: all the guys and they put guns to their heads

1248
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 3: and they say you have twenty four hours to leave

1249
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 3: or we're gonna come back and massacre you guys. And

1250
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 3: then they'll also destroy their olive trees, they'll shoot at

1251
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:32,360
Speaker 3: their water sources, they'll pour cement into their water sources

1252
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 3: so that they can't continue to feed their trees or

1253
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 3: feed their animals. And a lot of these people are farmers,

1254
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 3: and you know, they work the land and they graze

1255
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 3: their their goats or their whatever animals they have, and

1256
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 3: so they sort of require like large amounts of lands

1257
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:53,160
Speaker 3: to run their lives. And these people were coming in

1258
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:56,200
Speaker 3: emboldened by what was happening, saying, Okay, so there's a

1259
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 3: war going on, So now we are the law, and

1260
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 3: they'll call the cops, and the cops because in this area,

1261
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 3: the Israel's and control sob quality Israeli cops and they'll

1262
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 3: they'll so when they do come, they'll back the settlers up.

1263
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:10,040
Speaker 3: And there's already been people who have been shot being killed.

1264
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:13,920
Speaker 3: He talked about how he can't even vocalize that they

1265
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 3: are like angry at these people for coming in and

1266
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 3: destroying their livelihoods and seizing them like blocking roads, and

1267
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 3: people who need medicine can't get medicine, and people who

1268
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 3: can't get you know, it's like their kids can't go

1269
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:28,080
Speaker 3: to school. These kids haven't gone to school for a

1270
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:30,960
Speaker 3: month and they're nowhere near Gaza. So I talked to

1271
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:33,480
Speaker 3: this guy and you could read about it in Slate

1272
01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 3: where I published it. But I asked him, I was like,

1273
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 3: what's the solution here, like do you have hope? And

1274
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 3: he said that my only hope, because he doesn't have

1275
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 3: hope in the governments, is that his only hope that

1276
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:46,120
Speaker 3: earned the free pens of the world. And what he

1277
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 3: meant was, so we did the whole thing in in

1278
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:50,000
Speaker 3: Arabic and it sounded way more elegant Arabic, but he

1279
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 3: was saying that his only hope is in people who

1280
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 3: are in media to tell the truth about what's happening

1281
01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 3: there and to get the word out. And in that contest,

1282
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,680
Speaker 3: I was wondering, like free pen, what does that mean?

1283
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 3: What does that mean? And then I was thinking about,

1284
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 3: like the privilege that we have to report what we

1285
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,000
Speaker 3: want to report, and that we are in a way

1286
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:16,720
Speaker 3: censoring when we're not finding voices like these, And I

1287
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:20,720
Speaker 3: thought of the responsibility, and I thought about, like what

1288
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:25,200
Speaker 3: we're not doing by covering those kinds of voices, and

1289
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 3: how their entire hope, their only weapon really is that

1290
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 3: their own story, like that this kind of thing is

1291
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:34,080
Speaker 3: happening to them, and there's nobody else that's there who's

1292
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 3: going to protect them, and nobody else is going to

1293
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,439
Speaker 3: offer them a peaceful life except for US Man, except

1294
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 3: for people who can put pressure on their governments show

1295
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:44,559
Speaker 3: the world what's happening to them. And in that context,

1296
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 3: I think I see journalism as being so freaking potent

1297
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 3: and so valuable and so threatening. And you know these

1298
01:08:56,439 --> 01:09:00,759
Speaker 3: rarely government has already killed forty plus journalists argued attacks.

1299
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 3: They'll deny it was targeted. The evidence showed, the forensic

1300
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:08,760
Speaker 3: analysis show that they attacked the Reuter's convoy to the North,

1301
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 3: and they are They even openly said that when this

1302
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:17,120
Speaker 3: honest reporting thing came out, honest reporting is this organ

1303
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:20,599
Speaker 3: is like pro is real, It's not honest. Nor they

1304
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 3: had their mission statements to divert people's attention away from

1305
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 3: what the IDEF is doing. So that's why I'm saying that.

1306
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 3: But they had succeeded in painting people who were photojournalists

1307
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 3: who were documenting what was happening on October seventh, as

1308
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 3: being complicit and complying and cooperating with MS. And there

1309
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:41,200
Speaker 3: are executions of innocent people on that day. And so

1310
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:43,920
Speaker 3: the Defense Minister at my Ben Gavir and the Israeli

1311
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 3: government verbalized and openly said that those people who were

1312
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 3: photojournalists are complicit and that we will be adding them

1313
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:53,360
Speaker 3: to the list of people who are going to be

1314
01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 3: killing in response to what happened. Yeah, and it just

1315
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:02,080
Speaker 3: another moment. When I saw that, I cried because that's like,

1316
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 3: this guy is basically signing a death warrant for these

1317
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 3: photojournalists because this American based Pro Israel Org wanted to,

1318
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:14,400
Speaker 3: you know, contribute to the fog of war and make

1319
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:17,320
Speaker 3: things more murky so that we aren't so we doubt

1320
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 3: what we see is true. And I just really if

1321
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,200
Speaker 3: anybody who's listening gets anything from this, I just want

1322
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:28,360
Speaker 3: you to know that it's dangerous to look away and

1323
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 3: finding primary good sources is everything right now, and these

1324
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 3: people are they have no other avenue for peace. That's

1325
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 3: the only way that there's going to be piece is

1326
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:40,439
Speaker 3: that enough people wake up to what's happening, realize that

1327
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 3: it's not the textbooks that's driving these people apart. It's

1328
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:48,320
Speaker 3: that there is this one government in Israel, the Israeli government,

1329
01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:53,120
Speaker 3: that has control over everything everything. They are in charge

1330
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 3: and if they wanted to right now, they could find

1331
01:10:56,439 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 3: the partners for peace and they could make peace. Without that,

1332
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:02,960
Speaker 3: there's no hope. There's just not on the ground, not here.

1333
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:08,080
Speaker 3: We're sitting nowhere. That's the only hope. Yeah, geez, I

1334
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:09,680
Speaker 3: sound like fucking Carnell west Man.

1335
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 2: No, you haven't called me brother enough times.

1336
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:14,400
Speaker 3: Come on, brother.

1337
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:20,960
Speaker 1: I started by saying, do you have I mean just

1338
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:26,519
Speaker 1: just generally like resources that you think? So I'm just

1339
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:29,720
Speaker 1: getting all my information from X. Is that cool? Is that?

1340
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 1: Is that a good place to get now? Obviously social

1341
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 1: media has become.

1342
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 3: All you have to do is follows. That's where all

1343
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 3: the informations coming.

1344
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 1: Frock, he speaks the truth. But yeah, I don't know

1345
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:46,439
Speaker 1: like it's getting true information because there is the kind

1346
01:11:46,479 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 1: of mainstream bias that we're seeing and it is tough.

1347
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:55,280
Speaker 1: But do you have any like kind of broad advice

1348
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:59,360
Speaker 1: on on where how people should approach the task of

1349
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:00,559
Speaker 1: like primary Yeah.

1350
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:04,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say the people who are covering this best,

1351
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 3: hands down to my opinion. This is just my opinion.

1352
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 2: Is Herot's.

1353
01:12:08,920 --> 01:12:13,120
Speaker 3: They're an Israeli based newspaper. They have both right leaning

1354
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:17,000
Speaker 3: and left leaning writers. They have reporters and photojournalists who

1355
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:19,920
Speaker 3: are on the ground. They have fixtures in Gaza, they

1356
01:12:19,960 --> 01:12:22,599
Speaker 3: are right now putting out the best information I read

1357
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:24,920
Speaker 3: hearts in English. Sometimes there are articles that are only

1358
01:12:24,920 --> 01:12:27,280
Speaker 3: in Hebrew that you can if you have a computer,

1359
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:30,760
Speaker 3: you can translate. It's very easy. And also, you know,

1360
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:36,080
Speaker 3: they I think, enjoy more freedom to criticize the Israeli

1361
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:37,559
Speaker 3: government than we do here in America.

1362
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 1: For real.

1363
01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:41,280
Speaker 3: I think we are very quick on this side of

1364
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:46,479
Speaker 3: the water to try and condense whoever we don't like

1365
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,200
Speaker 3: into being some like enemy of thought, into being this

1366
01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:53,000
Speaker 3: person who is being driven by hate. But these people

1367
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,920
Speaker 3: are in Israel, and many of them are Jewish, some

1368
01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 3: of them are Muslim, some of them are whatever, you know,

1369
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:04,479
Speaker 3: and they I think have probably they're closest to the conflict.

1370
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:08,000
Speaker 3: They have primary sources. And that's what I've been using

1371
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,800
Speaker 3: to stay up to date, you know. And one thing

1372
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:13,479
Speaker 3: that I that I think is really that I think

1373
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:15,439
Speaker 3: really conveys what I'm trying to argue here, which is

1374
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:18,439
Speaker 3: at the very beginning, a bunch of different organizations at

1375
01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:21,320
Speaker 3: Harvard issued the statement. You know, some people thought it

1376
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:24,760
Speaker 3: was bad taste to write after this terrorist attack, try

1377
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:27,840
Speaker 3: to create context for what happened by saying that there

1378
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:31,080
Speaker 3: was no peace for Palestinians on October sixth, and that

1379
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 3: you know, some people have like said that it's not

1380
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:38,000
Speaker 3: right to victim blame and tell people who were killed

1381
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 3: in a terrorist attack that they had it coming. But

1382
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:44,639
Speaker 3: since day one, Harriet's has been doing that kind of work,

1383
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 3: writing about how the conception of these kabbutzas being on

1384
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:53,800
Speaker 3: the border was meant to withstand a first wave of

1385
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:57,680
Speaker 3: explosion after you know, the establishment of Gaza as this

1386
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:02,680
Speaker 3: like cut off like entire like insular. People call it

1387
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:05,679
Speaker 3: an open, open air prison, and that these good books

1388
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:08,240
Speaker 3: will put here strategically, and you know, these are Israeli

1389
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:11,200
Speaker 3: writers who are digging into the history, who understand this

1390
01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 3: stuff better than we do. So I think in this country,

1391
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:16,320
Speaker 3: if you want to consume media and be closer to this,

1392
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 3: I would say Harriet's is braver and they're doing some

1393
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:20,320
Speaker 3: of the best work right now.

1394
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:25,680
Speaker 1: Amazing. Well, Aimen, it's my We really appreciate you coming on.

1395
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:26,240
Speaker 1: Do we do it?

1396
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:28,519
Speaker 3: I didn't even cry once, man, look at it.

1397
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, made it through. We truly appreciate it. Where where

1398
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:36,000
Speaker 1: can people find you? Fill you read you all that

1399
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:36,559
Speaker 1: good stuff.

1400
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:40,160
Speaker 3: They can find me at Slate dot com. I'm not

1401
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:42,400
Speaker 3: using X because I do not want to get canceled.

1402
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:45,280
Speaker 3: So I'm not on social media's right now. But you can,

1403
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:48,439
Speaker 3: you know, get it become a Slate plus member. We're

1404
01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:50,120
Speaker 3: doing a lot of really really great work.

1405
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 1: Amazing And is there a work of media that you've

1406
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:53,759
Speaker 1: been enjoying.

1407
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:58,400
Speaker 3: I've been I don't know this counts, but just look

1408
01:14:58,439 --> 01:14:59,519
Speaker 3: at their old family photos.

1409
01:14:59,560 --> 01:14:59,720
Speaker 2: Man.

1410
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:00,599
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1411
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:05,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been feeling like really unstable. I need to

1412
01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:06,599
Speaker 3: take more mental health days.

1413
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:07,679
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1414
01:15:08,120 --> 01:15:11,479
Speaker 3: I've been going up and like looking at my kids

1415
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 3: when they were younger, and it just cheers me up

1416
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:14,960
Speaker 3: and it cracks me up. And I have so many

1417
01:15:15,040 --> 01:15:18,479
Speaker 3: videos of them being silly. My kid is riding a

1418
01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:20,640
Speaker 3: scooter now, he's like two years old. So he's like,

1419
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:23,400
Speaker 3: does this thing where he arch, He like pulls it

1420
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:24,960
Speaker 3: to the side and he pulls one leg and he

1421
01:15:25,280 --> 01:15:27,960
Speaker 3: tries to point it up, and I think it's like

1422
01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:30,600
Speaker 3: I imagine in his in his head, he's probably like

1423
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:33,960
Speaker 3: that leg is touching the clouds. Man, He's like, but

1424
01:15:34,120 --> 01:15:37,160
Speaker 3: in reality it's just sort of like, you know, it's

1425
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:38,360
Speaker 3: just a little bit.

1426
01:15:38,479 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 1: You can see it all on their face. That's what

1427
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:41,640
Speaker 1: they're so unguarded.

1428
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:43,040
Speaker 3: You know, and it cracks me up.

1429
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:48,080
Speaker 1: Man, that's so funny, you know, yeah, amazing, Yeah, well,

1430
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 1: thank you. I know that's not like a like you know,

1431
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:52,519
Speaker 1: it's a that's that's what's helping me go back and

1432
01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:55,360
Speaker 1: look at just Yeah, there's there's this app on your

1433
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:59,639
Speaker 1: phone called photos. Go back and look through some old ones, folks. Yeah,

1434
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 1: that's good advice. Miles, where can people find you as

1435
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 1: their working media you've been enjoying?

1436
01:16:05,240 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, find me at Miles of Gray, wherever they take

1437
01:16:08,280 --> 01:16:11,760
Speaker 2: the at symbols. Find Jack and I on our basketball

1438
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:17,360
Speaker 2: podcastles boostis where you know, take a break from the

1439
01:16:17,479 --> 01:16:21,760
Speaker 2: reality of our world event healthscape and just zoom in

1440
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 2: on the NBA and that hellscape. And then also you

1441
01:16:25,360 --> 01:16:27,160
Speaker 2: can find me on four to twenty Day Fiance. We're

1442
01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:30,439
Speaker 2: talking about ninety day Fiance. Another way I distract myself.

1443
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 2: Some media works in media, I like, Okay, I got

1444
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:37,519
Speaker 2: a couple first, a literal work of media. Producer Justin

1445
01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:39,360
Speaker 2: was like, yo, have you seen Blue Eye Samurai yet?

1446
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:42,240
Speaker 2: On Netflix? And I was like, you know what, I

1447
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:44,840
Speaker 2: know of it, but I have not seen it. I

1448
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:48,719
Speaker 2: watched it. It's pretty dope. It's about a biracial child

1449
01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:52,000
Speaker 2: in like, you know, sixteen hundreds Japan, because if you

1450
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:55,880
Speaker 2: were biracial then you were considered a fucking monster. So

1451
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:57,640
Speaker 2: just kind of like looking at that, but it's like

1452
01:16:57,680 --> 01:17:01,599
Speaker 2: a dope like animated Samurai k tale uh. And also

1453
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:06,360
Speaker 2: another tweet was actually from a past guest, doctor John

1454
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:09,639
Speaker 2: Paul at Doctor John Paul, where just posted a picture

1455
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:12,599
Speaker 2: of Barney well like like one is like a Barney

1456
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:15,760
Speaker 2: promo image, while another one was just someone like at

1457
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 2: a birthday party, I said, Lord Barney is on that stuff.

1458
01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:25,720
Speaker 2: And then someone someone quoted that at Sleep to Dream

1459
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:28,759
Speaker 2: and said Ozembic is hitting every corner of the entertainment industry.

1460
01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:31,360
Speaker 1: Damn he's got that big head.

1461
01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:33,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, o face.

1462
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:36,760
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore. O'Brian

1463
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:41,200
Speaker 1: a tweet I've been enjoying flea at Flee three point

1464
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:44,960
Speaker 1: thirty three. I don't know if that's the flea or not, tweeted.

1465
01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:47,320
Speaker 1: The great thing about the thong song is you can

1466
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 1: really feel his earnest yearning to see that thong person.

1467
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:57,360
Speaker 1: I know, I'm just double checking this person.

1468
01:17:57,400 --> 01:18:00,439
Speaker 2: It's not like three and eighty nine thousand follows, I think.

1469
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:03,240
Speaker 2: And also talking shit about the clippers that feels like

1470
01:18:03,320 --> 01:18:06,720
Speaker 2: fleet Yeah, okay cool and if not, hey, that's what

1471
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:07,479
Speaker 2: the account was.

1472
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:13,120
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at daily Zeikeuys, read

1473
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:15,880
Speaker 1: the Daily zeike Guys on Instagram. We have Facebook fan

1474
01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:18,200
Speaker 1: page on a website Daily zeikeus dot com. We've post

1475
01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:21,280
Speaker 1: our episodes and our footnotes no where we link off

1476
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 1: to the information that we talked about in today's episode,

1477
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:26,639
Speaker 1: as well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Miles,

1478
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:28,120
Speaker 1: what song do you think people might enjoy?

1479
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:32,559
Speaker 2: Let's go out in some like just nice aggressive, kind

1480
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:36,639
Speaker 2: of just at nineties garage band rock kind of vibes.

1481
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:39,240
Speaker 2: This is a track I discovered on Instagram where this

1482
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 2: dude just like walks up to people and like Washington

1483
01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:42,760
Speaker 2: Square Park and he's like, hey, do you make music?

1484
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:45,760
Speaker 2: Until someone says yes, and then just like promotes whatever

1485
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:48,400
Speaker 2: they're making. And he found a person who was friends

1486
01:18:48,439 --> 01:18:51,280
Speaker 2: with the lead singer of this band called Farmer's Wife.

1487
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:54,680
Speaker 2: And this track is called Greg Abbott's Maxi Pat. But

1488
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:57,600
Speaker 2: let me tell you, this shit is a there's a

1489
01:18:57,680 --> 01:19:00,360
Speaker 2: fucking there's a riff in it that I love so much.

1490
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:01,080
Speaker 4: Uh.

1491
01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:04,840
Speaker 2: It just it's like it's just good, just some like

1492
01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 2: rock that got you, get you going, like some Pixies

1493
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:12,680
Speaker 2: demo type ship. But anyway, this is Diddy would have

1494
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:15,720
Speaker 2: stolen it and put big over oh yeah yeah, and

1495
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 2: like would have slowed it down. Yeah yeah, but yeah,

1496
01:19:18,479 --> 01:19:21,120
Speaker 2: this is Greg Abbott's Maxi pad by Farmer's wife.

1497
01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:24,080
Speaker 1: All right, we'll link off to that in the foot notes,

1498
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:27,519
Speaker 1: as well as Harrot's and other stuff we were talking

1499
01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:28,640
Speaker 1: about that's going.

1500
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:30,800
Speaker 3: And this Twitter post that I just sent you to

1501
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:32,920
Speaker 3: in the chat. Yeah, just throw that in there at

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01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:34,559
Speaker 3: the bottom and be like, yo Emon wants you to see.

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01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:37,000
Speaker 1: This, all right, go man, man, that's gonna do it

1504
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:40,479
Speaker 1: for us this morning. We're back this afternoon to tell

1505
01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:42,479
Speaker 1: you what is trending, and we will talk to you

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01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:43,160
Speaker 1: about right