1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from how stupp 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And a while back we talked 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: about the evolution of same sex marriage in the US. 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: So far, seventeen states as of the recording of this 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: podcast have legalized same sex marriage. But we want to 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: continue highlighting this progress and celebrating it by talking this 8 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 1: time around about gay weddings. Yeah, because gay weddings in 9 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: and of themselves, the fact that they even exist is 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: a huge milestone. It's a huge deal. But also, I mean, 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: it's just it's wedding season, you guys. It's June, not 12 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: when people get married. It's spring. Things are blooming. Love 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: is in the air. Love of all kinds, Love of 14 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: all kinds. So let's first do a quick rundown on 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: the solution of same sex marriage legally speaking, in the 16 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: US and around the world. That's really started. The dominos 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: really began to fall in December two thousand and ten, 18 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: when the US Congress repealed Don't Ask, Don't Tell after 19 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: a Pentagon report concluded but surprise, surprise, gay service members 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: hold no threat to the Armed forces, abilities or effectiveness right, 21 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: and on the heels of that, well, I don't know 22 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: if you can say it's on the heels of considering. 23 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: It was three years later, but in June, the Supreme 24 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: Court struck down the Defensive Marriage Act, or DOMA, and 25 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: they ruled in Windsor versus the United States that section 26 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: three of DOMA, which refresher with the n law that 27 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: denied legally married same sex couples the protections and responsibilities 28 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: of marriage, was on constitutional In the same breath, Essentially, 29 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court also stuck a stick of dynamite in 30 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: Proposition eight, basically restoring the rights of gay people in 31 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: California to marry. And so that sort of open the floodgates. 32 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: People started looking around each other going like, oh, well, 33 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: we should probably, you know, give people civil rights. So, 34 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: as Kristen said, seventeen states as of this recording have 35 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: legalized gay marriage, led by Massachusetts in two thousand four. 36 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: But if we look worldwide, the Netherlands was at the 37 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: forefront back in two thousand one, and sixteen countries now 38 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: allow same sex couples to marry nationwide, while two others, 39 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: including the US and Mexico, have just regional provisions allowing it. 40 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: And so while in the United States, clearly there's still 41 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: a lot of progress to be made because this is 42 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,119 Speaker 1: now a state by state battle, but it does seem 43 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: that the chips are falling at an accelerated pace. And 44 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: I suspect that gay marriage is going to be the 45 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,279 Speaker 1: law of the land in five years. Calling an idealist, 46 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: but I honestly believe that this is a change that 47 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: is legitimately sweeping the nation. Right. Well, I mean if 48 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: you just think about people in our generation and younger especially, 49 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: I mean, really nobody thinks that gay marriage is a 50 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: huge deal that will harm the marriages of other people. 51 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: I mean, statistically speaking, our generation and younger is like, 52 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: let and live and let live. Let people get married, 53 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: and you know what comes with getting married. Kristen Weddings, 54 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 1: Planning a wedding, I personally would find planning a wedding overwhelming, 55 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: but I have always had the right built in to 56 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: have a wedding. Yeah, and to you know, almost have 57 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: the privilege of being annoyed with the idea of like 58 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: a wedding, Am I going to have to do that 59 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: one day? Yeah? This is a this is a new 60 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: territory though for same sex couples who are getting married. 61 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: And this episode is a bit of an intersection between 62 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: other topics that we've talked about before surrounding weddings, marriage, 63 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: same sex, civil rights, things like that, and so there 64 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: will be some repeat information, but it's just been interesting 65 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: to see how gay weddings are being treated and publicized 66 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: as both something old and something new right and in 67 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 1: a stroke of incredible timing, the not which is actually 68 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: part of what Slate writer Katherine Goldstein in June called 69 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: the wedding industrial complex. They started us off with a 70 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: really kind of thorough, very long Q and A type 71 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: of thing that was basically a how to addition for 72 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: gay and lesbian couples. It was essentially the guts. The 73 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: guts were the same of each issue, but there was 74 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: one geared towards gay grooms and one geared towards lesbian brides, 75 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: and um, there were thirty five q and a's in there, 76 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: like everything from you know, should I give an engagement ring? 77 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: To who should we invite? And Katherine Goldstein was talking 78 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: about how like, yes, there were some really like critical, 79 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: well good hard hitting questions and answers in there, but 80 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: really this is just part of the same old junk that, 81 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: like straight couples have had to deal with forever. Right. 82 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: I remember when this happened. I was listening to one 83 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: of my favorite podcasts, Throwing Shade, and the gay host 84 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: Brian Sofie just ripped into this not his and hers 85 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: gay wedding special basically because he found it insulting that 86 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: it was, you know, these questions about how do we 87 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: have a wedding if we are two men instead of 88 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: a man and a woman. And I think that the 89 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: Knots intentions were pretty pure, aside from, you know, the 90 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: capitalistic things of oh well, if you're looking for his 91 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: and his cake topper as well, you can go to 92 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: one of our sponsors. But uh, but there were some 93 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: legitimate questions in that Q and A in terms of, okay, 94 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: well do we invite family members who have not been 95 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: accepting of our union, things like that, But then also 96 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: apparently lots of suggestions of drag queen entertainment, to which 97 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: Brian Sofie again raised his eyebrow. Well, also, the first 98 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: dance song suggestions were questionable. Lots of Whitney Houston, right, yeah, 99 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: side note, I love Whitney Houston. But first dance. I 100 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: don't know, but anyway, so now, I mean, I think 101 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: it's great that we do have a ton of how 102 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,119 Speaker 1: to guides etiquette advice. There's even uh this this group 103 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: called the Gay Wedding Institute that's been around for several 104 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: years to sort of advise both actual same sex couples 105 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: but also to sort of advise the media and vendors 106 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: themselves on how to handle same sex weddings and civil 107 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: unions and that kind of stuff. And you know, say 108 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: what you will about the advice being sappy, crap or whatever, 109 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: but like the fact that it's out there, I think 110 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: is so wonderful. The fact that people are getting the 111 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: same kind of treatment as far as like, hey, you 112 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: want advice on having an awesome wedding, Well here here's 113 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: some advice. Here's a way to spend a lot of 114 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: money one in one day. Um but there, but there 115 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: are some The thing that jumps out over and over 116 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: again in media coverage of gay weddings is this idea 117 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: that well, they are basically taking this age old institution 118 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: and reinvigorating it with their own traditions, because unlike you 119 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: and I to assist gender heterosexual women who will be 120 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: faced with questions of, well, are we that cool with 121 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: a guy proposing? Do we really want a diamond? Are 122 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: we going to take his name? All of those questions 123 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: that come up over and over again. Whereas when you 124 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: have two women are two men, it's more of a 125 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: blank slate issue. And so there was a two thousand 126 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: thirteen survey conducted by the not and the Advocate and 127 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: they pulled LGBT and straight Americans to compare and contrast 128 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: how we do our weddings, and there were some differences 129 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: that popped out, starting with popping the question yeah. So 130 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: they asked about, you know, whether your proposal was traditional 131 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: along the lines of, you know, getting down on one knee, 132 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,679 Speaker 1: pulling out the ring in the little velveteen box, and 133 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: same sex couples reported that they were less likely to 134 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: have had a formal proposal fifty eight percent compared with 135 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: of opposite sex couples who had a traditional one. And 136 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: when it comes to, you know, the asking for his 137 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: or her hand in marriage, you know, we think of 138 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: that as a very common thing that a groom to 139 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: be would do, asking his future wife's father for permission 140 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: to marry her. Only nineteen percent of same sex couples 141 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: said that they approached the parents of their spouse to be, 142 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: whereas sixty of straight couples said that they did that. Now, 143 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: when it comes to actually planning the wedding, the survey 144 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: also found that of same sex couples evenly split the 145 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: planning duties, compared to just nine of straight couples, to 146 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: which I say, hey, who's that pulling their weight around here? 147 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: Straight couples, what's going on? Well, I would imagine in 148 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: both gay and straight couples all over the place, there 149 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: are plenty of people who are in couples being like 150 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: you get out of here. Yeah, I'm taking this over. 151 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: Someone probably does end up being more of the event manager. 152 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: And let me just tell you, Caroline that if that 153 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: day ever comes for me, oh I hope it's him, 154 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: I do not want to be me well, but I 155 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: guess it depends. And I mean not to get off 156 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 1: on a tangent, but you know, gay or straight, if 157 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 1: you're just planning on having a big party, I'd much 158 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: rather have just have like a huge party rather than 159 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: plan some big formal affair. But then I guess, regardless, 160 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: you've got to worry about the venue. But anyway, but anyway, Well, 161 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: let's just plan our own perfect wedding, Caroline. And when 162 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: it comes to putting the bill, six percent of gay 163 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: couples reported paying for their own weddings versus of opposite 164 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: sex couples, and that might be why on average, gay 165 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: weddings usually cost quite a bit less. The average cost 166 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: of a straight wedding in the United States right now 167 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: is twenty seven thousand tears. What that one buys you, 168 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: it's probably a lot of headache medicine to get through 169 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: the fact that you're spending. However, and this was I 170 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: think this is New York specific, but in New York 171 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: at least same sex couples spend an average nine thousand, 172 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: thirty nine dollars on their weddings. So it could be 173 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: partially due to the fact that, hey, if they are 174 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: responsible for paying for this whole shin dig, then maybe 175 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: they're mining their money a little bit differently and instead 176 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: of if it's a parent or somebody else footing the bill. Yeah, well, um, 177 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: as far as you know, whether it's a big fancy 178 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: affair or not. Of same sex couples versus six of 179 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: straight couples reported that their nuptials were cash just casual 180 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: get together and along those same lines. So I mean 181 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: you mentioned whether or not parents are footing the bill 182 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: for the wedding, whether or not someone is asking parents 183 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: permission to pop a question. Gay couples are also less 184 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: likely to be escorted down the aisle by a family 185 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: member or incorporate religious vows. So it really does seem 186 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 1: like in a lot of different ways, they are making 187 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: this tradition their own. They're not saying, well, we have 188 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: to do things like all these brilliant straight people have 189 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: been doing it for forever. Right, Yeah, they are I 190 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: mean following their own path, creating their own path, and 191 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: not feeling that pressure that so many straight couples I 192 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: assume uh feel to create a wedding that just like 193 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: their sister had or just like their mother had. Yeah, 194 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: I think there is a lot. There's so much baggage 195 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: that goes on with the appropriate in quotes in the 196 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: same way that I had brilliant straight people in quotes 197 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: planning of a wedding up to this issue of changing 198 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: one's last name. Right, six that of same sex couples 199 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 1: polled said that they kept their distinct last names, versus 200 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: seventy of straight brides who took their husbands. And honestly, 201 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: I would have thought the percentage for straight couples would 202 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: have been higher, that more women would have been taking 203 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: their husband's name. But yeah, I mean I think that 204 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: more women are keeping their name these days, but yeah, 205 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: I'm surprised that it's not even a little bit higher too. 206 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: And according to a New York Times article about this, 207 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: apparently the whole name changed thing is more common among lesbians. 208 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: But not surprisingly, this doesn't have to do with old 209 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: school ideas about chivalry and a woman's rightful place subservient 210 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: to her husband, but rather, in the words of one 211 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: lesbian bride of quote, being able to change their name 212 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: is a way of having their home state recognize their marriage. Yeah. Um, So, 213 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: backing up just a minute to what Kristen was talking 214 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: about about, like the old tradition of chivalry. It's something 215 00:12:57,920 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: that I read and had to read like three times 216 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: because I couldn't believe. I mean, I can't believe it, 217 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: but anyway, I'll just say it. Okay. So you know, 218 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: changing your name is an ancient tradition. It dates back 219 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: to the common law doctrine of coverture, when a bride 220 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: assumed her husband's name and legal identity, and in what 221 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: is called civil death, ceased to exist as a separate 222 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: legal person, which I'm just like, ceased to civil death. What. 223 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: And so the fact that in same sex weddings you 224 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: don't have that same gender norm, traditional genderal baggage, those 225 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: those dividing lines, I think that really opens people up 226 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 1: to being able to make a more informed, egalitarian, educated choice, 227 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: like no, we're going to change our names to this 228 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: because of this. For instance, in one of these stories 229 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: I can't remember if it was in the New York 230 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: Times for the Atlantic, that was talking to a lesbian couple. 231 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: One half of the couple was a very tall woman 232 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: and she wanted to get rid of her name, her 233 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: last name which was like kind of German sounding or something, 234 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: and her wife to be her last name was teeny. Yeah, 235 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: she said that there was no way that she was 236 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: going to take on the last name teeny and simply 237 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: set herself up for the lifetime of jokes after that. 238 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: But I have a feeling too that the that sort 239 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: of name changing decision is also going to be more 240 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: influenced by whether or not their kids involved, and it's 241 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: probably not as big of a deal if both parties 242 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: don't elect to change their names at all, right, or 243 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: hyphen a or whatever, because they're not really bound, Like 244 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: we said, they're not really bound by the same etiquette 245 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: pressure that a lot of straight couples find themselves under. 246 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: And it is that whole realm of etiquette though, which 247 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: some people argue, is what is making the introduction of 248 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: the idea of gay marriage to a lot of straight 249 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: people more almost more palatable to people who otherwise wouldn't 250 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: have agreed with it. Uh. Stephen Petro answers questions about 251 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: GBT etiquette wedding etiquette for The New York Times, and 252 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: he addressed this whole topic of gay weddings in a 253 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: June column by way of answering a question about a 254 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: gift registry. And basically this couple was like, oh, you know, 255 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: we're having a second wedding. You know, is it tacky 256 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: to register for gifts and ask our friends to get 257 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: us stuff? So that's like the surface question, that's a 258 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: good etiquette question. But the reality when you dive under 259 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: what that question was, the whole reason these people were 260 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: having a second wedding is because when they had originally 261 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: married in two thousand four, their wedding in California had 262 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: been annulled. Their marriage had been annulled by the state. 263 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: And so it's not like they're just having a second 264 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: wedding for kicks. They're getting married in a like a second, real, 265 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: actual wedding to be spouses and so um. Petro was 266 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: basically using that etiquette question to talk about how what 267 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: like a watershed moment we find ourselves in that the 268 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: who are normally like so outside the bounds of typical 269 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: etiquette and and whatever, are asking these questions and they 270 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: tend to have almost like a deeper meaning. Yeah. I 271 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: had never really thought of etiquette in this more significant 272 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: kind of way, because typically, if I think of etiquette, 273 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: it sounds very stodgy to me. It's going to be 274 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: more of the blue haired grandma in the corner who 275 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: might not want anything to do with this crazy new 276 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: thing called gay weddings. But Petro makes a great point 277 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: about how the rise of etiquette, that there have been 278 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: these peaks in etiquette throughout the twentieth century now the 279 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: twenty one century, related correlated to giant social changes happening. 280 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: So he writes, for instance, that it was no coincidence 281 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: that the first edition of Emily Post Etiquette, which came 282 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: out in was published soon after the bloodshed and social 283 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: upheaval of World War One. Yeah, and while we're not 284 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: saying that the bloodshed of role where one has anything 285 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: to do with gay weddings, what we are trying to say, 286 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: and what Petro is is stressing, is that it's almost 287 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: like etiquette rules, you're able to introduce something new and 288 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: different through traditional channels. Essentially you're you're calming people down 289 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: about some social upheaval, some social change. I mean, it's 290 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: happening relatively quickly, I would say, and I'm sure there 291 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: are a lot of social anxieties out there. But when 292 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: you're just talking about two men or two women trying 293 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: to figure out a gift registry, like that's universal. You know, 294 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: that's a universal wedding question. Well, and that's a whole 295 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: That's the whole thing that comes up also in these 296 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: media reports or trend stories, and I hate that they're 297 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 1: even trend stories because it's here to stay on gay 298 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: marriage is the fact that it is treated a lot 299 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: as a novelty, which is a little unfortunate because at 300 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: the end of the day, this is a question about 301 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: two people getting married, and unless we can put them 302 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: in the category of other, I'm like, oh, well, you 303 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,959 Speaker 1: need your own set of rules because you're the special 304 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 1: case over here. I think we'll see maybe some of 305 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: that eroding as we progress into this just being a 306 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: normal part of our society. I think we will. I 307 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 1: think we totally will. I think we're at a stage 308 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: right now where a lot of people have to say 309 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: gay wedding or straight wedding or gay wedding etiquette or whatever. 310 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: But I do think we are getting closer to a 311 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,959 Speaker 1: time where it's just like wedding etiquette, don't invite family 312 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: members who don't support you, regardless of who you're marrying exactly. 313 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: And we're seeing that evidence of that in the publication 314 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: of wedding announcements in newspapers. In two thousand eight, Glad 315 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: looked at how many papers across the country have policies 316 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: that that published same sex wedding announcements, And I think 317 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: we're starting to see evidence of that in wedding announcements 318 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: in newspapers. So in two thousand two, The New York 319 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: Times began opening up its wedding pages to LGBT couples, 320 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: And in two thousand and eight, GLAD looked at how 321 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: that had had a ripple effect to other newspapers around 322 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: the country and found that and I'm sure the number 323 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: has gone up since then. It found that daily newspapers 324 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: in the US except wedding or commitment ceremony announcements for 325 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: same sex couples. Yeah, and um, I mean, as they should. 326 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: But you can imagine. I mean, I'm someone who worked 327 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: at a daily newspaper in not the most progressive town, 328 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 1: so you know, I can only I can only imagine 329 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: some of the newsroom discussions or whatever. But despite the 330 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: progress that a lot of daily newspapers have shown, there 331 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: have been several articles in the past couple of years 332 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: highlighting the newspapers that are refusing to publish them. For instance, um, 333 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: back in Fall, the tech Sarcanic Gazette in Texas refused 334 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: to publish the announcement from Michelle Cooks and Patricia Wrightner 335 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: because they cited this policy that the appending nuptials have 336 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: to be recognized in the state in which the paper circulates. 337 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: It sounded like a whole like overproduced excuse just to 338 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: not run it, exactly making up a rule in order 339 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 1: to be able to say no. And unfortunately, that's not 340 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: the only example of discrimination that same sex couples might 341 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: be facing in the process of planning a wedding. And 342 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: we're going to highlight some of those instances when we 343 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break. So when we 344 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: left off, we had mentioned that hooray, so many newspapers 345 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: around the country are now publishing same sex wedding announcements 346 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: and that's fantastic. Four issues of visibility, etcetera. But there 347 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 1: are still bigoted pockets of the United States that aren't 348 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: so keen on assisting with gay weddings. Yeah, one that 349 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: really uh stuck out to me in the news was 350 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: the whole cake thing. Remember the whole cake thing, The 351 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: whole cake thing, that whole cake thing. In December, a 352 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: judge ordered Colorado baker Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cake Shop 353 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: in Denver to stop discriminating against gay couples or face fines. 354 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: The judge said that he violated the law when he 355 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: turned a couple away in twelve simply for being gay 356 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: and wanting to be married, and the judge in that 357 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: case cited state law that prohibits businesses from refusing service 358 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: based on race, sex, marital status, or sexual orientation. Writing 359 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: at first Blush, it may seem reasonable that a private 360 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: business should be able to refuse service to anyone it chooses. 361 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: This view, however, fails to take into account the cost 362 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: of society and the hurt caused of persons who are 363 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: denied service simply because of who they are. Now. Of course, 364 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: this angered some, particularly religious conservatives, because Jack Phillips the Baker, 365 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: said that it was due to his Christian beliefs that 366 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: he would bake any other kind of cake. He said 367 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: that he would even bake a wedding cake for a 368 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: dog wedding. He simply would not bake a cake for 369 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: a gay marriage. If it had just been um, a 370 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,479 Speaker 1: gay birthday party, still fine, But because of his beliefs 371 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: about the sanctity, the Christian sanctity of marriage, it wasn't okay. 372 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: And so there were some you know, conservative politicians who 373 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: came out saying, this is an overreach of you know, 374 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: judicial power, tamping down on our religious freedoms. And the 375 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: tangential debates from there that emerged, one of which we 376 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 1: read over at The Atlantic was really interesting because at 377 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: one point gay commentator Andrew Sullivan weighed in, saying, you 378 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: know what, somebody doesn't want to bake me a cake 379 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: for my gay wedding, that's totally fine. It seems like 380 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: at this point the number of people who are are 381 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: so staunchly against this are are so small and and 382 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: becoming so clearly um out of touch with their views 383 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: and out numbered and outnumbered that it's almost like it's 384 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: not worth the effort. But at the same time, still, 385 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure gay couples who are planning weddings say, you 386 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: know what, actually, it is completely worth the effort because 387 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: we should be able to and be granted the rights 388 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: to plan a wedding with the same kind of freedom 389 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: that everybody else does. Yeah, everybody likes cake. Everybody likes 390 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: everybody likes cake. Everybody Okay, and you know what, everybody 391 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: likes to have photographers at their wedding too. But we 392 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: have we've had some problems with photographers. Um Elaine Photography 393 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: studio co owner Elaine Huguenin refused to photograph a same 394 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: sex couple, saying that it would violate her religious beliefs 395 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: similar to the cake baker, and claiming that she's protected 396 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: under the First Amendment. But in April, the Supreme Court 397 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: rejected an appeal from her studio, letting the New Mexico 398 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: High Court ruling stand that she was discriminating. And then 399 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: we also have similar things happening with florists. In March, 400 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 1: Baronel Stutsman, a flower shop owner, refused to supply flowers 401 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: for a couple in Washington State, and Stutsman is being 402 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: sued by the couple and the state Attorney General's office 403 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: for violating the consumer protection laws similar to the cake incident, 404 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: where basically their laws saying, hey, guess what, it's great 405 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: that you own a business can't really discriminate based on uh, 406 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: someone's race, sexual orientation, ability, et cetera. And it's good 407 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,959 Speaker 1: that those laws are in place because those laws were 408 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: probably initially enacted to prevent racial discrimination. Let's continue forging 409 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: forward in our quest for civil rights for everyone, shall we? Absolutely? 410 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: And along those same lines, we have this trend again. 411 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: I don't like to use the word trend, but you 412 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: do have this kind of trend popping up of a 413 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: lot of straight couples saying either I'm not gonna get 414 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: married until my gay friends can get married, or they're 415 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: trying to incorporate something into their actual same sex wedding 416 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: ceremony to indicate to all of their guests that they 417 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: support same sex marriage and want you to support it too. 418 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: And I am curious though, on this particular issue, to 419 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 1: know what LGBT listeners think about this thing of straight 420 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: allies sort of doing our own like standing with you 421 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: refusing to get married, or maybe we're just gonna go 422 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: ahead and get married, but we're gonna acknowledge the fact 423 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: but not everybody can get married, Like is it does 424 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: it feel disingenuous? Yeah? That's something that I'm wondering too, 425 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: because I know a couple who dated for years and 426 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: I mean they're super live and they absolutely said, like 427 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: we are not there's no way we are getting married 428 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: until everyone can get married. And then, of course, a 429 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:45,959 Speaker 1: couple of years ago they got married. And so I'm 430 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: just wondering, like does that just make it seem like, God, 431 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: do you guys just shut up? And you know, like, 432 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: I am curious to what our is that? Yeah, is 433 00:25:54,800 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: that the appropriate way to acknowledge our heteronormat of privilege? 434 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: You know, to put it in really stodgy sounding terms? 435 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I feel like it's a 436 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: it's probably coming from a good place. Yeah, yeah, I yes, 437 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: I believe it is too. I don't like believe it's 438 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: an attention getting thing, but yeah, you have to wonder 439 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: about it. One one example that I do like, um 440 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: is from Anne Hathaway's wedding to Adam Schulman, her boyfriend 441 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 1: and Hathaway the actors in case I don't know you're 442 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: under a rock. But she authorized the sale of her 443 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: wedding pictures to benefit Freedom to Marry, which is an 444 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: advocate group, as well as three other charities, and a 445 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: couple of years ago, Freedom to Marry created its own 446 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: marital registry and since then the majority of donations they've 447 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: received have come from heterosexual weddings. Yeah, and another. Straight 448 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: couples have incorporated things like reading from court decisions on 449 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: same sex marriage in their ceremony, or others might hand 450 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 1: out lapel pins with the white Not logo, which is 451 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: produced by an LGBT advocacy organization, White Not Dot Org, 452 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: while others might ask us to sign petitions or open 453 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: letters in support of gay marriage. So basically, but but 454 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: isn't that again a little bit of let's have our 455 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: cake and eat it too at our wedding, literally a 456 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: little bit. I don't know. I don't know how I 457 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,479 Speaker 1: feel about it entirely because obviously I don't not support it. 458 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I think, is is this 459 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: the best way to push push this forward? I don't know. 460 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: I don't know either. I mean maybe if it gets 461 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: your some of your more conservative family members at least 462 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: thinking about it, that's a good point. I mean, yeah, 463 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. Yeah. LGBT listeners please advise. 464 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: Because then there's also the whole thing of celebrity couples 465 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: such as Brad and Angelina right saying they're not going 466 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: to get married at all. Charlie Thorna said the same thing. 467 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: dNaM has said that she and that guy with the 468 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: big glasses who makes those pop songs won't get married 469 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: until everyone can get married. Lena Dunham is just the 470 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 1: most recent and a string of people. Although you know, 471 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: like it's the same thing, does it come off as 472 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: disingenuous because Brad Pitt has also come out and said that, 473 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: you know, it's up to our kids. If our kids 474 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: really want us to get married and it's important to them, 475 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: then we will again, I think all of us just 476 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 1: underscores the fact that it's incredible that we have the 477 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: choice to do that and some people, a lot of 478 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: people don't have the choice. You know. That just highlights 479 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: how there's still such a disparity. Yeah, and so on 480 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: the one hand, anything that can bring attention to that 481 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: disparity is positive. However, you know, I feel like there's 482 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: some crotchety old people out there looking at Lena Dunham 483 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: and Angelina and shaking their fist and being like the 484 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: dumb kids. You just have to wonder like, is it effective, 485 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: is it genuine? Is it doing what they wanted to do? 486 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: But it's not bad that they're doing it exactly. Yeah, 487 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: definitely not bad that they're doing it. Um. Now, finally 488 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: we got to talk of let's get down to brass 489 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: tacks when it comes to weddings. If you want to 490 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: really have an argument about, you know, kind of stripped 491 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: of politics, you just talk about money. Let's just talk 492 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: about the economics of gay marriage, because you know what, 493 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: last time I checked, the U. S has this massive deficit. Okay, 494 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: we could use some extra cash in the coffers. And 495 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: one way to do that is to legalize a gay marriage. Yeah, 496 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: trust me. Kristen checks the deficit every day. So last 497 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: time she checked means like two minutes ago. I am 498 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: fun at parties on her phone. Yeah. But no, it 499 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: turns out you guys lo and behold. Granting people their 500 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: civil rights can have an impact on the economy. Um. 501 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: So if we look Predoma, if we go back before 502 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: the Defensive Marriage Act was destroyed. Back in two thousand nine, 503 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: the New York Times reported that same sex couple stood 504 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: to lose as much as five grand over a lifetime 505 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: because they couldn't marry and therefore get benefits like spousal 506 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: health insurance and other off and that led to more 507 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: same sex couples being more likely to be uninsured. And 508 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: then that can snowball into people who are uninsured avoiding 509 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: preventive care and winding up costing everybody when they go 510 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: to the emergency room. It's a whole mess when people 511 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: can't get spousal benefits. So economist Lee Badgett, writing for 512 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: PBS in March, was citing her research and that from 513 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: the Congressional Budget Office, and she was saying that state 514 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: and federal budgets will actually get a positive boost if 515 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: gay couples are allowed to marry. She talks about any 516 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: additional state and federal spending on benefits, so once you're 517 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: a spouse and you can receive spousal benefits would be 518 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: outweighed by savings from lower cash assistance and medicaid spending. 519 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: Badgets talking about all of these good, give and take 520 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: economic aspects of allowing gay people to marry. She also 521 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: talks about, now remember this is pre damas, she's also 522 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: talking about how there'd probably be an increase in tax revenue. 523 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: She talks about how all of a sudden, you've got 524 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: this basically like pent up pot, what wedding ready population 525 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: who's been unable to marry this whole time, and suddenly 526 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: you're going to have like the floodgates open and thousands 527 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: of excited couples can start finally planning a quote unquote 528 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: real wedding. And she said that would generate at least 529 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: one point five billion dollars by her calculations, and spending 530 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: on things like flowers, cakes, fans, meals, photographers, hotels, tourism, suits, gowns, 531 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: and not to mention those really expensive like bridle or 532 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: groom party outfits can I just mention, though, Caroline, that 533 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: when you said this pent up group of people ready 534 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: to get married, I just envisioned a bunch of brides 535 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: and grooms leaping out of a crock pot simmering. I 536 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: picture I picture them at like the start line of 537 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: a race, like, let us freaking get married. And then 538 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: her last point one of when one of Badgett's other 539 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: points was that there are a ton of employers who, really, 540 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: you know, they don't care, like have a wedding, don't 541 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: have a wedding, I don't care. But there are a 542 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: lot of employers big and small out there who say, 543 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: we just want to recruit and retain the best people. 544 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: And if making our employees better means making them happy, 545 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: and if making them happy means letting them get married, 546 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: then freaking let them get married. Uh. Companies like Google, Apple, Viacom, Nike, 547 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: all these people are saying, we just want our LGBT 548 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: employees to actually be able to focus on their jobs 549 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: and being really super creative and awesome, not dealing with 550 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: the whole issue of stigma and inequality that creates problems 551 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: and stress on their families. Yeah, and so if you 552 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: look at New York as an example, where gay marriage 553 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: was legalized in two thousand eleven, the state has seen 554 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: an economic ripple effect from same sex marriage. This was 555 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: reported on by CNN in July, and it found that 556 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: between things like marriage license fees, local celebrations, and wedding 557 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: related purchases, New York The's economy added two million dollars 558 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: to its bottom line, right, and the city collected sixteen 559 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: million dollars in tax revenue from same sex marriages during 560 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: that period. And remember this is just in a year 561 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: from when it was legalized in New York to the 562 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: article being written in July. But weddings, not not just 563 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: like getting your license, not just you know, having a 564 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: little local dinner party to celebrate. Weddings brought the biggest 565 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: economic boost to New York City, with about sixty seven 566 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: percent of same sex couples who got married in the 567 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: city holding wedding receptions at venues in the city like hotels, restaurants, 568 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: all that stuff throughout New York City. But then that 569 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: also brings up my more cynical side caroline of saying, well, 570 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: is this only just feeding the wedding industrial complex? I 571 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: think I'm just terrified of ever being at a point 572 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: in my life where I'm expected to spend twenty seven 573 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,719 Speaker 1: thousand dollars on one day. I just don't know if 574 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: I can do it now, the y O. B Man. 575 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: So for a more recent example, let's look at Utah, which, 576 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: at the time of us recording this podcast is basically 577 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: on the legal precipice of same sex marriage being allowed, 578 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,720 Speaker 1: and the u c l A. Based Williams Institute found 579 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: that legalizing same sex marriage could generate in Utah fifteen 580 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: point five million dollars in wedding spending in more than 581 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: one million dollars in sales tax revenue for Utah's economy 582 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: in just the first three years, And on top of that, 583 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: it could also generate two d sixty eight jobs in 584 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: the tourism and hospitality sector. Yeah, so, I mean, weddings 585 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: in general are kind of a shot in the arm 586 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: for state economies. Just imagine though, if you have like 587 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: this big rush of people being like we could have weddings. Now, 588 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: who's to say that it won't like eventually kind of 589 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: level off in plateau. But hey, states, if you're if 590 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: you're looking to make some money and also grant people's 591 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: civil rights. Yeah, I mean, because I'm just saying that 592 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: the whole economic argument is a good one to up 593 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: in your back pocket when you're talking to people who 594 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: aren't so on board with the idea of same sex marriage, 595 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: because it's hard to argue with saying, well, you know this, 596 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: this would generate massive amounts of money. Everybody likes money, right, 597 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: everybody likes money. Um. But so, looking to a gallop 598 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: pole that was conducted on us spending from January through September, 599 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: so sort of straddling pre and post doma um, they 600 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 1: found that married Americans spend more than those in any 601 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,760 Speaker 1: other marital status category across age groups. So there's another argument. 602 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: When you're married, you spend more money. Americans who have 603 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: never married spend significantly less, particularly for those people who 604 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: were under fifty, suggesting that if the marriage rate increases 605 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 1: across the country, overall spending may increase and benefit our economy. 606 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: Yet another reason why extending civil rights to all is 607 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: a good idea, right because think about it, if you're 608 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: pooling two incomes, basically, even if you have separate bank accounts, um, 609 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,839 Speaker 1: you are more likely to to actually spend on things. 610 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: Maybe fix up your house, fix up your yards, go on. Vacation, 611 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: who knows, who knows. The possibilities really are endless for 612 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: how you could spend your money. So what do we 613 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: have to say with all of this, Caroline, Gay weddings happening, 614 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: Old traditions meet new traditions. Yeah, I think, Um, on 615 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: the one hand, it must be nice to not have 616 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: that traditional baggage of like we have to do weddings 617 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: this one way. On the other hand, it's unfortunate that 618 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: that freedom stems from the fact that these folks have 619 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: never been allowed to marry and so they haven't had 620 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: traditions in place already. But um, you know, if if 621 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: anyone out there wants to invite me to your, uh, 622 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: to your same sex wedding, it sounds like it would 623 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 1: be a lot of fun judging by the statistics we 624 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: have presented here. Well, you know what, weddings are usually fun. 625 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: I like going to weddings. Personally, I don't want to 626 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: plan one, but I enjoy going if there's an it depends. 627 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 1: I've been to some good ones and I've been to 628 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: some if well, And we're going to talk about that 629 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: on the next episode of Stuff I've Never told you. 630 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: With our interview with Jen Dahl, who wrote an entire 631 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: memoir about going to weddings. Because guess what, folks, whether 632 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 1: you knew it or not, it's weddings week here on 633 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: the podcast. But LGBT listeners, we especially want to hear 634 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: from you on this, those who have gotten married. Have 635 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 1: you gone through the whole gay wedding planning and encountered 636 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: any of the things that we were talking about. Are 637 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: you tired of being treated as a trend piece in 638 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: the wedding section in the New York Times. Do you 639 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: think that all this is positive and good and we 640 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: are accelerating in the right direction. Yeah, I do think. 641 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,319 Speaker 1: Let me reiterate, I do think that it is on 642 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: the horizon that we're getting to a place where there 643 00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: isn't a gay wedding and a straight wedding. And I 644 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: mean like living like I live in I live in 645 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: midtown Atlanta, for instance, And the fact that you the 646 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,280 Speaker 1: fact that anyone would walk into a florist and would 647 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: not be served because they are gay, Uh, just like 648 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: wouldn't it just wouldn't happen, not in not where I live. 649 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,840 Speaker 1: And so but I understand that Atlanta is just a pocket, Yeah, 650 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: a pocket, a special little blue pocket um in the 651 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: red jeans of Georgia. Yeah, still still a lot of 652 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: progress to be made, So LGBT listeners, we especially want 653 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 1: to hear from you on this topic. What has been 654 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: your experience with weddings? Are you hoping to plan one 655 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: one day once same sex marriage becomes legal in your 656 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: state or wherever you live. Have you planned one, and 657 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: if so, what was it like? Please share all the 658 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 1: details with us. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot 659 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: com is where you can send your emails. You can 660 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 1: also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or send us 661 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: a Facebook message, and we've got a couple of Facebook 662 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: messages to share with you right now. So I've got 663 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: an email here from David, subject line that shaming in 664 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: the gay community, and this is in response to our 665 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: episode the body shame Epidemic. He writes, I've been a 666 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,919 Speaker 1: fat man my whole life. It hasn't been an easy time, 667 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: but I'm slowly coming to grips with bad acceptance. By this, 668 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: I mean, instead of focusing on the scale number, I'm 669 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: trying to live a life that is happy, is being 670 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,240 Speaker 1: healthy and being loving. I'm lucky enough to have found 671 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: a man who married me. Hey, speaking of gay weddings 672 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 1: because I was fat, not in spite of it. This 673 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: leads me to my story. When I was first exploring 674 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: coming out, I attempted to go to a gay bar 675 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: in my college town. I say attempted because in the 676 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: parking lot a group of rather nice looking men cat 677 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: called over to me. They said, hey, Patty, there isn't 678 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,919 Speaker 1: anything in there for you. No one will even look 679 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,359 Speaker 1: at you. It has stayed with me even today. While 680 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: there are gay groups that welcome have your men, the 681 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: gay community by and large is a vicious place of 682 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,839 Speaker 1: fat shaming. One needs only to surface glance at most 683 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: a media to see the over obsession with twinks, hotness, 684 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: and the like. While the straight community has this too, 685 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 1: it does seem to be a bit more flexible in 686 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,760 Speaker 1: terms of allowing heavier members to be in and find love. 687 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 1: Like you mentioned with the sitcom situation, I would like 688 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,840 Speaker 1: to think that gay culture and the community is changing, 689 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,280 Speaker 1: but there isn't a ton of evidence in that direction. 690 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: That being said, I've been with the same wonderful man 691 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 1: for twenty years and have been happily married for five 692 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: ever since our state made it legal. So I would 693 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: like to hear from other gay listeners about that. Do 694 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: you have you witnessed or experienced a similar kind of 695 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 1: more extreme or more acute I should say that shaming 696 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: among the LGBT community let us know. Okay, I have 697 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 1: a letter here from Kirsty about our women and gaming episodes. Uh. 698 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 1: She says it reminded me so much of a conversation 699 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: between a good guy friend of mine and my husband. 700 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: The guy friend, who definitely qualifies as a hardcore gamer, 701 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,359 Speaker 1: said that he thinks that so much exposure to video 702 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: games has just started his view of women, since they 703 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,720 Speaker 1: are always portrayed as helpless princesses that need to be rescued. Thus, 704 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: this is the kind of romantic relationship he expects to have. Also, 705 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 1: he thinks it has given him unrealistic expectations of what 706 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: women's body should look like, since they are always portrayed well, unrealistically. 707 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: My husband's response was that it is complete bs to 708 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: blame attitudes about women exclusively on video games, and that 709 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 1: there are plenty of video games that have awesome female 710 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 1: characters if you actually bother to look for them. He 711 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: says that Sama's is one of his favorite characters because 712 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: she is, in his words, a total badass. She is 713 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: super tough and certainly doesn't need any rescuing for the 714 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: entire game. Her sex is a non issue, and he 715 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: thought it was really cool when she was revealed to 716 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,880 Speaker 1: be a woman because it flew in the face of 717 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: expectations about action here is It surprised me that you 718 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: had only negative things to say about Sammy's on the 719 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: podcast is she is so well beloved and better known 720 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 1: for being tough than being sexy. And she says, by 721 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: the way, that her husband is currently playing uh Final 722 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: Fantasy Third Team, I'd and realize that exists, which has 723 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,239 Speaker 1: a really awesome female protagonist, and he does. He said 724 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter to him either way if the character 725 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: he's playing is male or female. Is long is the 726 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 1: game is good. So thank you for writing in, Kirsty, 727 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom stuff 728 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: at how stuff Works dot Com is our email address 729 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: and to find all the links to our social media blog, post, videos, 730 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: and podcast, there's one place to go, and it's stuff 731 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You dot com. For more on this 732 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, does it how stuff works 733 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 1: dot com. Audible dot com is the leading provider of 734 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: downloadable digital audio books and spoken word entertainment. Audible has 735 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 1: over one hundred thousand titles to choose from to be 736 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: downloaded to your iPod or MP three player. 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