Speaker 1: The problem is that you are asking a community in
Speaker 1: people in Miami to sort of trust you when the
Speaker 1: history of the franchise is basically not to be trusted.
Speaker 2: Hey, we're back with Andy McCollough from the Athletic joining
Speaker 2: us right now. Put together what's up Andy, Good to
Speaker 2: see you.
Speaker 3: Hey guys, how are you good?
Speaker 2: How are you? And loved what you put together? Encourage
Speaker 2: everyone to check it out. The little disparity between the
Speaker 2: Marlins and the Dodgers and how that series matches up
Speaker 2: for seventy six versus sixty nine million, the payroll gap
Speaker 2: has never been wider. So before we get into that,
Speaker 2: how much consideration did you put into the Pirates instead?
Speaker 2: Because that could have fit them all too right.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, they just happened to be spending like twenty
Speaker 1: three million more than the Marlins army. And that's we actually,
Speaker 1: you know, I wanted the story to I didn't want
Speaker 1: people to think that the framing of the story was
Speaker 1: specifically picking.
Speaker 3: On the Marlins as a.
Speaker 1: Franchise individually, because I think it's part of a greater
Speaker 1: trend you're seeing in the sport. Both you know, the
Speaker 1: the haves are spending at like accelerated rates and the
Speaker 1: teams that are not spending are just kind of holding firm.
Speaker 1: And so we could have written this like there would
Speaker 1: have been a historic disparity when the Dodgers played the
Speaker 1: Pirates this past weekend. There would have been this disparity
Speaker 1: when they played the A's. They share a complex with
Speaker 1: the White Sox, you know who. There's like almost a
Speaker 1: four hundred million dollar gap. So the Mardels just happened
Speaker 1: to be in last place.
Speaker 2: I guess, Well, and now we arrive on this series,
Speaker 2: which actually was an awesome beginning to the series. So what,
Speaker 2: in your mind was the most interesting part of what
Speaker 2: you put together? Like, what do you think someone reads
Speaker 2: and really resonates with them or stands out?
Speaker 1: Oh, I think I mean, I think it's the type
Speaker 1: of story that, how you I don't think it's going
Speaker 1: to change anyone's mind really per se because I think
Speaker 1: that everyone agrees that the payroll disparity in the sport
Speaker 1: is a problem, right, Like, it's probably not great that
Speaker 1: there's a four hundred million dollar gap. It's probably not
Speaker 1: great that you know, only teams in the top ten
Speaker 1: and payroll have won the World Series in.
Speaker 3: Five of the last six years.
Speaker 1: It's probably not great that a team in the bottom
Speaker 1: ten hasn't won since, you know, the three Florida Marlins.
Speaker 1: They just differ on the solutions, right like, people on
Speaker 1: the you know, the management side, would prefer that there
Speaker 1: are rules to curb the spending, which is why I
Speaker 1: think when the CBA expires at the end of next season,
Speaker 1: you know, the the sort of rancorousness of the likely
Speaker 1: lockout is going to depend on just how willing the
Speaker 1: owners are, you know, to push for.
Speaker 3: A salary cap.
Speaker 1: Obviously, folks from the you know, the labor side, believe
Speaker 1: that owners should be spending more, and they believe that,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like a reward a point to the
Speaker 1: teams like San Diego, like Philadelphia who have pumped a
Speaker 1: ton of money into their franchisees in the last you know,
Speaker 1: five to ten years and have sort of been rewarded
Speaker 1: by creating these contenders kind of out of the ether,
Speaker 1: you know, And the folks on the management side will
Speaker 1: counter back like, okay, but San Diego had to take
Speaker 1: out a loan to make their pay and the Phillies
Speaker 1: you know, sold a big chunk of equity this winter.
Speaker 3: Et cetera, et cetera, and.
Speaker 1: So like it's it's a common problem, you know, as
Speaker 1: AJ was alluding to, you know before the break, like
Speaker 1: there's always going to be labor strife in major sports.
Speaker 3: There's so much money involved. But yeah, like.
Speaker 1: It's it's basically like, why is there so much dialogue
Speaker 1: now about a salary cap as compared to the last time.
Speaker 1: It's because the spending disparity has gotten this wide.
Speaker 4: But AJ brought it up before the Marlins as an organization,
Speaker 4: I get it. It's different ownership, but it's the same
Speaker 4: mo make the playoffs or even win the World Series,
Speaker 4: break the team down. Even in twenty eleven twelve when
Speaker 4: they did the whole Burley and Jose Rays and all.
Speaker 4: Look guys, they even they sold the lies to those players.
Speaker 4: Come on in, we'll get your dog in the houses.
Speaker 4: It'll be great. And then bang trade and sell everybody.
Speaker 4: Is that ever going to change without Major League Baseball
Speaker 4: stepping in in some way to keep it a competitive
Speaker 4: league in the sense that it's about competition and that's
Speaker 4: why they have all these rules, or everybody would just
Speaker 4: do this and say, whatever kind of product we put
Speaker 4: on the field.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's a good question.
Speaker 1: I think part of what makes the Marlins so interesting
Speaker 1: in this case is that there are, like you, if
Speaker 1: you look at this just like in a vacuum, right,
Speaker 1: what Peter Bendix in his front office are trying to
Speaker 1: do with the team kind of stripping down the big
Speaker 1: league roster, you know, trying to you know, concentrate their
Speaker 1: resources on infrastructure and player development and you know all
Speaker 1: that sort of boring stuff.
Speaker 3: You know, a weight room, that type of stuff.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: It makes sense, right, Like it makes sense.
Speaker 1: We all know that teams in general are built from
Speaker 1: the ground up, and then you go out and get
Speaker 1: free agents.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: The problem is that you are asking a community in
Speaker 1: people in Miami to sort of trust you when the
Speaker 1: history of the franchise is basically not to be trusted.
Speaker 1: Now most of that is under different ownership, right, and
Speaker 1: not under Bruce Sherman, and certainly not under Bendix.
Speaker 3: And his crew.
Speaker 1: But like that's kind of what they're dealing with, and
Speaker 1: that's partially why I think there's probably app feet in
Speaker 1: that market. Yeah, and so like it certainly is a
Speaker 1: we will see if they will break the cycle, Like
Speaker 1: if this group, the Baseball operations group can build something
Speaker 1: of a you know, like the version of the Tampa
Speaker 1: Bay Rays, the Milwaukee Brewers and the competes, and then
Speaker 1: they'll see if they actually spend to try and keep
Speaker 1: up with the Mets and the you know, the Phillies,
Speaker 1: and you know, to an extent, the Braves. But like
Speaker 1: they're dealing with a lot of history working against them.
Speaker 3: I guess how much did.
Speaker 4: You press Sherman about the owner about the grievance. I
Speaker 4: know he declined to comment, and I don't know, you
Speaker 4: know what kind of situation you were in in a
Speaker 4: sense of like pressing him about declining to comment about
Speaker 4: most likely a grievance that's going to be coming because
Speaker 4: of their lack of spending through what they're supposed to
Speaker 4: the threshold that they're supposed.
Speaker 1: To be in. Yeah, I mean they you just said,
Speaker 1: he's not going to talk about it, and so you
Speaker 1: could sort of ask again and ask again. But when
Speaker 1: they say, yeah, we're not talking about that, you kind
Speaker 1: of okay, fair enough. But based on what their actions show,
Speaker 1: they do not appear to be all that concerned about it.
Speaker 1: They have not upped their spending in the way that
Speaker 1: the A's have. But you know that's up for them
Speaker 1: to try and explain because they just weren't going to
Speaker 1: talk about it.
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Speaker 5: Andy you mentioned you know what you said about they
Speaker 5: have no collateral. They have no they literally have no
Speaker 5: nothing with the fans. And I think that's the biggest
Speaker 5: thing about this whole thing that bothers me for Sherman
Speaker 5: to come on here and say, oh, we're building this.
Speaker 5: We built the thing in the Dominican and we got
Speaker 5: a better weight room, and we're doing the spring training
Speaker 5: and them now listen, spring training. It's them and the Cardinals. Okay,
Speaker 5: it's not just the Marlins saying oh so he looks
Speaker 5: like it's saying, oh, we're we doing No, it's you
Speaker 5: and the Cardinals. You know, Jupiter. The whole thing is
Speaker 5: also putting in a bunch of money. So let's not
Speaker 5: give him a badge of honor like, oh, way to go,
Speaker 5: you know, Sherman like you way to go, Bruce like.
Speaker 5: But also the problem I have is, you know, he says,
Speaker 5: and you said this, the fans. They don't believe them.
Speaker 5: They haven't given them anything to believe in the years
Speaker 5: when they've gone to the World Series and they've been good.
Speaker 5: The fans have come and they've come to the games,
Speaker 5: and they were I remember going there when they were
Speaker 5: you know, two thousand and three World Series. I was
Speaker 5: down there and it was it was everyone was wearing
Speaker 5: Marlin stuff. Ninety seven, everyone was wearing Marlin stuff. Right,
Speaker 5: But that for years and years and years, they haven't
Speaker 5: given them anything back. So at some point does I
Speaker 5: guess it's the old chicken in the egg question, right,
Speaker 5: do them spending and getting the trust of the fans first,
Speaker 5: or do the fans just have to trust that they're
Speaker 5: going to spend, which doesn't seem to ever happen.
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's more about them putting
Speaker 1: a competitive product on the field year after year and
Speaker 1: not just you know, sort of basically finishing in last
Speaker 1: every year. Right there, The fans aren't going to come
Speaker 1: out to watch, you know, a last place team. This market,
Speaker 1: I know it's a bit apples and oranges, but like Miami,
Speaker 1: the Heat regularly finished like in the top five in attendance.
Speaker 1: You know, there is obviously a robust baseball culture in
Speaker 1: the city of Miami, and and you know, I would
Speaker 1: be interested to see if the baseball operations department gets
Speaker 1: things up and running and they have them being competitive,
Speaker 1: and that's sort of like eighty five to ninety win window,
Speaker 1: which is certainly not going to be easy to do
Speaker 1: in that division. But if they do that, if attendance
Speaker 1: improves and things like that, I suspect it would. But
Speaker 1: you know, that doesn't necessarily mean that they will be
Speaker 1: they will be competing for like whoever the version of
Speaker 1: Juan Soto or Kyle Tucker is three years down the road, right, Like,
Speaker 1: I think that they as a baseball operations department are
Speaker 1: looking at it as a challenge of like, let's try
Speaker 1: and create, you know, the most robust player development system
Speaker 1: we can, you know, have our sort of big league
Speaker 1: club and minor league system be an incubator for ideas,
Speaker 1: you know, try and be forward thinking and try and
Speaker 1: combat some of these inherent challenges.
Speaker 3: It'll be interesting.
Speaker 1: Like I think it's a it's a very experiment. Makes
Speaker 1: it seem like it's destined to fail, but I think
Speaker 1: it's just an interesting gambit that they're undertaking, and I'm
Speaker 1: curious to see how it plays out.
Speaker 5: Okay, here's here's here's a question on what you just said.
Speaker 5: Though we're not asking, and I don't think the players Association.
Speaker 5: I don't think players are asking them to go out
Speaker 5: and sign one Sodo Show, Tonny pretty Freeman. They're asking
Speaker 5: them to do more than spend one year four point
Speaker 5: five million on Kyle Quantrill. Do more, right, I don't
Speaker 5: think they're expecting them to be the Dodgers, the Mets,
Speaker 5: whoever you want to throw out there, but at least
Speaker 5: try to be competitive, not just say, ah, this is
Speaker 5: another year, we're just gonna throw it away, especially after
Speaker 5: two years ago they made the playoffs and they told
Speaker 5: the manager they're not coming back. They fired kim Ming, Right,
Speaker 5: they make the playoffs and they're like, oh, you're doing
Speaker 5: too good.
Speaker 4: Let's do something different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that that was a there
Speaker 1: was an obvious reason why there was so much frustration,
Speaker 1: you know, among you know, their what remains kind of
Speaker 1: their fan base after it seemed like they were kind of,
Speaker 1: uh moving in the right direction in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1: I think at the same time, if you look under
Speaker 1: the hood at that team, it was a lot closer
Speaker 1: to a seventy five win team than an eighty five
Speaker 1: win team. You know, not to slight the accomplishments they had,
Speaker 1: but I think it was reasonable for them to say, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we probably you know, still need to fix some stuff
Speaker 1: with the infrastructure.
Speaker 3: But yeah, like it's a it's.
Speaker 1: A reasonable, uh sort of complaint, like Okay, why can't
Speaker 1: you do both? Like why can't you spend on the
Speaker 1: weight room? Why can't you do all these you know,
Speaker 1: sort of infrastructure things and also add to the big
Speaker 1: league roster. I think it's a you know, a reasonable complaint,
Speaker 1: and you know, their their responses like we have a plan,
Speaker 1: we we kind of know what we want to do,
Speaker 1: and this is the way we're doing it.
Speaker 4: All right, So they're playing each other right now, the
Speaker 4: Dodgers in the Marlins? Is it unfair to say, are
Speaker 4: we are? We just putting the Marlins in? Everything they
Speaker 4: touch is terrible, Like when we talk about the pitch, Yeah, throwing,
Speaker 4: like practice, live batting, practice sessions. If the Dodgers would
Speaker 4: do that, people be like, they're innovative, they're the next thing.
Speaker 4: So how can we get away from that?
Speaker 1: I think you just see if it works, like see
Speaker 1: if their guys get better, like see if there's results
Speaker 1: on the field. I mean, I think when you know
Speaker 1: Joe Sherman had the story in you know, kind of
Speaker 1: near the end of spring training about how they were
Speaker 1: doing these live vps and you know, in place of
Speaker 1: bullpen sessions, and like a lot of people, I was
Speaker 1: like texting folks around the game, like what do you
Speaker 1: what do you got on this? And they were kind
Speaker 1: of and you know, some people were like this is dumb,
Speaker 1: but the majority of people I talked to were like,
Speaker 1: it actually makes sense. And at a time when more
Speaker 1: and more teams are thinking about competing in a practice setting,
Speaker 1: like sort of amplifying the pressure of practice to prepare
Speaker 1: you for the game. Yeah, it it makes a lot
Speaker 1: of sense. And if it works, it'll be a thing
Speaker 1: that in five years, you know, we will see teams doing.
Speaker 1: It'll it could be a thing, you know, as soon
Speaker 1: as next year that we see teams doing, or it
Speaker 1: could be scrapped before the year's over. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think that like a willingness to you know, sort of
Speaker 1: look silly is kind of what an organization like this
Speaker 1: has to do. And you're right cratzy, like if the
Speaker 1: Dodgers announced this or something, or if like you know,
Speaker 1: like Max Sureser came out and said like I'm getting
Speaker 1: rid of bullpens.
Speaker 3: I'm doing live BP, you know, because this is what
Speaker 3: I want to do.
Speaker 1: Everyone be like yeah, dude, like Max gets it, like
Speaker 1: this guy's like you know, But like the Marlins don't
Speaker 1: have that credibility, right, And I think to their credit
Speaker 1: as of right now, you know, they say they don't
Speaker 1: really care if people make fun of them, if their
Speaker 1: stuff works, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you. It's tough when that team is
Speaker 2: trying to lead the pack, right, I mean that's part
Speaker 2: of it too. I think you gain some credibility when
Speaker 2: you innovate and you're successful along the way. I don't
Speaker 2: think anyone wants to look at the Marlins over the
Speaker 2: past twenty years and be like, I'm copying that format.
Speaker 2: It's really working, right, there's winning, there's you know a
Speaker 2: lot of fans showing up the whole deal like it
Speaker 2: has not worked out, and I feel like they just
Speaker 2: built back up and then made the playoffs. Then they're
Speaker 2: starting over again. But I do want to spend some
Speaker 2: time on the Dodgers here, so I want to start
Speaker 2: with this, right. The off season was wild and super
Speaker 2: successful for them, and fans were freaking out. And since
Speaker 2: there're ain't no start about a five hundred team, I
Speaker 2: think it's safe to say this is not going to
Speaker 2: be the best regular season team of all time. They're
Speaker 2: not going to win one hundred twenty games. So what
Speaker 2: are your thoughts on the Dodger side of this equation
Speaker 2: where you know, money can buy you a level of happiness,
Speaker 2: but not all happiness. And then I want to get
Speaker 2: into a problem with the pitching injuries frankly, but what
Speaker 2: do you think overall?
Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of about how you'd expect. I
Speaker 1: think maybe they've been a little bit worse, you know,
Speaker 1: than than you would have predicted.
Speaker 3: But like, yeah, they're they're.
Speaker 1: Going to win their division, they will be the you know,
Speaker 1: almost certainly the number one seed in the West, and
Speaker 1: we will see how it goes in October. You know,
Speaker 1: Toddler Glasnow's hurt Snell is you know a bit of
Speaker 1: a question mark, which should be okay.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: You know the running joke that a lot you know,
Speaker 1: myself and a lot of baseball writers were making as
Speaker 1: they just kept signing pitchers this offseason is like, well, all,
Speaker 1: remember this day when Ben Casparius is starting game one
Speaker 1: of the nld us, and you know Casparius is like
Speaker 1: now being stretched out potentially for the rotation. So like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think they're perfectly in a fine spot. It's a
Speaker 1: long season. You know, they're hopeful that they can get
Speaker 1: through it in a scenario where like Snell, Glass, now, Yamamoto, Sasaki,
Speaker 1: maybe Otani and even Kershaw, you know, Dustin May all
Speaker 1: these guys are available, but most likely several of them
Speaker 1: are going to be down. But the whole point of
Speaker 1: the spending was just to you know, be able to
Speaker 1: throw numbers at the sort of inevitability of picture attrition.
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's get to picture attrition. You know, the
Speaker 2: Dodgers are down Glass now, right now, They're down Blake Snell,
Speaker 2: and we can go over a list of some others.
Speaker 2: How do we tie this into the Dodgers pitching? I
Speaker 2: would say epidemic. I mean, Andrew Friedman talked about it
Speaker 2: and said, we have to figure this out in the
Speaker 2: off season. But is it something that they're doing or
Speaker 2: is it more just about having a lot of money,
Speaker 2: spending that money on pitchers with elite stuff, and those
Speaker 2: guys tend to get hurt more often, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's not like Tyler Glasnaw was making
Speaker 1: thirty starts a year for the Rays before he came
Speaker 1: over to the Dodgers, So like I would just put
Speaker 1: him in a separate category. Snell's thing seems to be
Speaker 1: relatively minor, and they're just going to be kind of
Speaker 1: careful with it. And that's sort of the uh, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of the privilege of all the talent that they have.
Speaker 3: They don't have to worry about it.
Speaker 1: But you know, like, I don't know, is it something
Speaker 1: that the Dodgers are doing that Clayton Kershaw's on the
Speaker 1: ale or the fact that he's like pitched in the
Speaker 1: majors for seventeen years, right, and then they've gone through,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of stuff with you know, the
Speaker 1: Gavin Stones, the River Ryan's, the Machines, you know, all
Speaker 1: those guys. They had that autopsy this past winter in
Speaker 1: which they were trying to figure out kind of how
Speaker 1: to keep guys healthy, and it's like, you're all these
Speaker 1: guys who were coming off surgery.
Speaker 3: They're not suddenly going to be healthy in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: So some of that is just the residue from you know,
Speaker 1: kind of what they were trying to fix with their
Speaker 1: player developments system over the winter.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, if you want more on obviously this series
Speaker 2: in the big picture, then check out Andy's article right
Speaker 2: now in The Athletic. Put a lot of good work
Speaker 2: into it. Andy, thanks for joining us. Man appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much. Have a good one, guys, Thank you
Speaker 3: you too.