1 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: This is Gavin Newsom and Newke Gingridge continues, you worked 2 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 1: on this book, which again is you know, it's very 3 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: much in the spirit of Reagan to you talk about 4 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: his last speech. I mean, I mean that's where he 5 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: talked about Lady Liberty's torch. And you know, we talked 6 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: about that life force of New Americans, et cetera, and 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:37,279 Speaker 1: and and and again. My my fundamental concern about this 8 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: assault on higher education is the impact that we'll have 9 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: in terms of our capacity to get these pH ds 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: and stem folks and and to be able to pull 11 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: uh that chill it's already I think having around the 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: rest of the world, but pull the best in the 13 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: brightest minds and and and keep them as part of 14 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: that innovation cycle. But you you specifically, I'm you brought 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: up in the book, which I loved, the Chinese Exclusion Act, 16 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: and you know, so much of that comes from you know, 17 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: the embers of that are very familiar folks out here 18 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: in the Bay Area. You know, I remember what I 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: would refer to unfairly. I would admit this guy Dennis Kerney, 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: who was sort of the original Trump, and he began 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: and ended every speech by saying, whatever else we do. 22 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: The Chinese must go, and they were building virtual walls 23 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: to keep the Chinese out, and of course the beginning 24 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: of the Chinese Exclusion Act ultimately came out of the 25 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: Bay Area and some of those movements. But interesting to 26 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: me is we're now close to peak immigration. Again. We 27 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: dropped very low in nineteen seventy I think it was 28 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: four point eight percent, don't quote me, and now we're 29 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: closer to fourteen fourteen point eight wherever it is, again, 30 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: don't quote me, but it's significantly grown. How concerned are 31 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: you talk about assimilation? You talked about the things you 32 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: can't talk about from a European prism. But as you 33 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: balance the journey to America and you balance this immigration 34 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: debate and deal with the ish of criminal behavior and 35 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: quote unquote illegal immigration as you refer to it, how 36 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: do we find a balance? How do we strike that 37 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: balance at peril we go back to the instincts of 38 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: the eighteen eighties, or go back, frankly to well, I 39 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: mean maybe we're back there today. Curious you're assessment, I 40 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 1: think no. 41 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 2: I think first of all, there were two huge challenges. 42 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,119 Speaker 2: One is sheer volume. I mean, you can't have six 43 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: eight nine million people crossing the border illegally. The other 44 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 2: which I began writing about in the eighties, I was 45 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 2: visited one of the congressmen in Georgia by vietname. He's 46 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: a small business owner who said that when he came 47 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: over after the fall of Saigon, he and his brother 48 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: arrived and he went straight to work, and his brother 49 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: got hooked up in southern California with the welfare office 50 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: and learned that you could get public housing, and you 51 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: could get food stamps and so forth. And so his 52 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 2: brother never developed the kind of entrepreneurial drive because life 53 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 2: was adequate. And it hit me that what had worked 54 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: historically in America, which was very tough, people should not 55 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 2: kid themselves. You know. Clossa's grandmother came through all As Island. 56 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: We actually went up and looked at her. Her signature 57 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: and her. 58 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: From Poland, Is that right, huh Polish? 59 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, she's her grandmother's Polish on her father's side. Ironically, 60 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: since she's been nominated to the ambassador of Switzerland, her 61 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,119 Speaker 2: grandmother on the on the Swiss side, which is her mother, 62 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 2: is from Burn, So she's actually gone back to her 63 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 2: grandmother's home area. But the paternal grandmother came from Poland 64 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: in nineteen o eight and you can literally track her 65 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 2: coming in. Well, every person that came in was inspected 66 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 2: for health, and if you had a communicable disease, you 67 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: were excluded and sent back. Everybody was checked to see 68 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 2: if they were willing to go to work, and if 69 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: you weren't prepared to work, you were sent back. I mean, 70 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 2: it wasn't you know, It wasn't an automatic open door. 71 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: It was it was a it was a controlled open door. 72 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: But there was a second part which was very tough. 73 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: People expected you to become American. They expected you to 74 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: learn English, they expected you to go to work, they 75 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: expected you to be a neighbor, expected you to pay 76 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 2: the law. And so there's a great deal of socialization 77 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 2: that went into being an immigrant in the US. We 78 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: went into a cycle which which was captured in a 79 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 2: book called the Tragedy of American Compassion. UH, where starting 80 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 2: really in the big way with the great society, it 81 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: became inappropriate to suggest to people that they give up 82 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 2: whatever wherever they came from. UH, to say that the 83 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 2: habits and the culture you came from, aren't you know, 84 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 2: So if you happen to come from a place which 85 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: engages in clinterectomy. Who are we to suggest as a 86 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: matter of women's rights, then maybe that's not a very 87 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 2: good habit, right. It would be like in the middle 88 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: of the nineteenth century when sutti was still practiced in 89 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: India and widows were expected to be burned on the 90 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: with their husbands. So the question becomes, can we find 91 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 2: a path back to work? And I voted for all this, 92 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: And in nineteen eighty six we passed the Simpson Zoliac. 93 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 2: We thought we were giving an amnesty to three hundred thousand, 94 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: turned out to be three million. And Reagan and his 95 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 2: diary says, I signed the bill because we were going 96 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: to get control of the border, and we're going to 97 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 2: have a work permit system so we could control immigration. 98 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: And of course he got neither. So is it one 99 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 2: of the guys who voted for this thing? 100 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, you were an advocate. I think what in nineteen 101 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: eighty five, right even before when it was in its 102 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: infancy in bill form. 103 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: So you know, I think you we're not going to 104 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 2: deport ten or twelve or fourteen million people. No, it's 105 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: not going to happen. We are going to deport most 106 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 2: of the criminals. And if you are here without having 107 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 2: yet been a criminal, and you become a criminal, we're 108 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 2: going to deport you and then once. I mean my 109 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 2: theory of all this, which may be wrong, but it's 110 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 2: part of what we did a journey to America is 111 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 2: to remind people that it's okay to be against illegal immigration, 112 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: but you want to be passionately for legal immigration, and 113 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: you want to recognize that they're dividing lines. I'm very 114 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 2: concerned about the Dreamers, the people who came here two three, 115 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: four years of age. Tally, they should be treated differently 116 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: than they're being treated right now. It's just it's wrong 117 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: to toss them in as though they're illegal in any 118 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: traditional sense. 119 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: So is it just they're just a political football, then 120 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: that's right. 121 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 2: Well, and most of them don't speak the language of 122 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 2: their native country. They grew up in America. For all 123 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 2: practical purposes, it is their native country. So we couldn't 124 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: have that debate until we got control of the border. 125 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: My guess is that by sometime in twenty seven we 126 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 2: will begin to have a very healthy debate. People will 127 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: have calmed down and will now be into how do 128 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: we solve this problem as opposed as just being so rigid, 129 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: and it may even happen starting in twenty six. I mean, 130 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: I thought that the speed I don't know what your 131 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: reaction was, but I thought the speed with which they 132 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: turned around the southern border was almost unbelievable. 133 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean directionally it had significantly declined in terms 134 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: of the total number of border crossings. But unquestionably, Yeah, 135 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: the acuity to which in essence is shut down is 136 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: rather remarkable considering where we were two years prior. But 137 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: clearly the message was delivered a little bit. In the 138 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: last nine months to a year, the Biden administration starting. 139 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: To gradually shift, but then Tom came in and. 140 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: It really no no doubt. I mean, look, rhetoric matters, 141 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: and I'm curious just from that perspect because I think 142 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: a lot of it was rhetorical. I mean, it was 143 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: substantive in terms of some of the moves that he's made, 144 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: mostly rhetorical, I think in terms of the impacts even 145 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: occurring before in the executive orders when in effect, and 146 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: certainly no fundamental legislative shifts yet. But what are you 147 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: what about the rhetoric? What about sort of the pain 148 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: a lot of our diverse communities feel about the rhetoric 149 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: from the President himself. And you know, is it tactical 150 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: you say he supports legal immigration. We saw that debate 151 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: play out with a Bannon Musk frame, But that debate 152 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: is still pretty alive in the base of the mega 153 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: movement right anti immagrant legal too. 154 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: Look, the challenge for Trump's critics on this line of 155 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 2: reasoning is that he got the highest percentage any Republicans 156 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: ever gotten in the Hispanic community. He got the largest 157 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 2: percentage of African American males of any Republican since Eisenhower, 158 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 2: you know, seventy years ago. Right, He's the first Republican 159 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 2: to get a majority of the Catholic vote. So an 160 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: awful lot of people who are first and second generation 161 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 2: legal immigrants who are as mad about illegal immigrants as 162 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: people whose relatives came over in seventeen hundred. I mean, 163 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 2: there's a sense of I paid my dues, I waited, 164 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: I obeyed the law on at frankly, I left these 165 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 2: people behind. I don't want a Venezuelan gang in my neighborhood. 166 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: And while that's exaggerated, it's real enough, and particularly if 167 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 2: you look at the people you know who've been killed 168 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 2: or the people who've been raped. You don't need many symbols. 169 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 2: No country decide, you know, I don't. That's a risk. 170 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 2: I don't know. 171 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: I just I miss. What I hate is how it's exploited. 172 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: And as we know, I mean, we all know the stats. 173 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: I mean, native born are more likely to commit crimes 174 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: than forum born, legal or or without documentation. But you're right, 175 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: I mean what you just said is Poe accurate. It 176 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: doesn't take that many examples. 177 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: And I suspect if you limited it down to MS 178 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: thirteen gang members be willing gang members. There are enough 179 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 2: examples there. You're right, you can earn a living off 180 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 2: of it. 181 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: Look, I get your broader point, but I'm encouraged by 182 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: your core belief that Trump has the capacity, to your point, 183 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 1: to move if he feels that we've made the progress 184 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: on the border to a much more comprehensive conversation. 185 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 2: You said publicly that we ought to really be thinking 186 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 2: about if you graduate in science or engineering, we give 187 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 2: you a green card with your graduation. 188 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: Well that's been challenged by him eliminating all the foreign 189 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: students at Harvard. 190 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: But we'll see that's now let me suggest to you 191 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 2: as somebody who's studied Trump a pharamount. There's a there's 192 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: a John Wayne film where it's really mad at somebody 193 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: picks up a chair, breaks it over their head and 194 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: his partner turns and says, God, you get really go crazy. 195 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 2: As several foreign governments have learned. You take Trump head 196 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: on and he goes nuts, and he says, I'm going 197 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: to prove to you it's classic alpha male. I now 198 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 2: have to prove to you who's dominant. Well, Harvard decided 199 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 2: let's test this theory. Okay, So they now have Donald 200 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 2: Trump about four o'clock every morning figuring out what he 201 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: can do next. And he is going to beat on 202 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: them and beat on them. There's nothing to do with 203 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 2: the rest of the country. I hope not. Harvard has 204 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: decided to pick a head on fight. They're a big institution, 205 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: They've got a ton of money, they have great prestige, 206 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,319 Speaker 2: and we'll see whether or not they can. This is 207 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: a little bit like in I think it's nineteen o two, 208 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 2: they have a huge coal mine strike and Theodore Roosevelt 209 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 2: calls him the coal mine owners and says, this is 210 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 2: going to it's settled, and the coal mine. Unders say, well, 211 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: you don't understand, we own the coal mines. And Roosevelt says, 212 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: you don't understand. I am the President of United States, 213 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 2: and I will have the army take over all of 214 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 2: your minds. And they said, oh, well, let's talk. I mean, 215 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,719 Speaker 2: if Harvard were semi smart, you know, this is a 216 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: losing fight, you know, if they win round one in court, 217 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: because he's going to be there for four years. They 218 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 2: were in one, win one round in court. The Justice 219 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 2: Department will be there with round two, three and four, 220 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: and he's not going to give up until they cawtew. 221 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 2: It's just now he's not necessarily going to go and 222 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 2: pick a fight with you know, uh, the Ohio State University, 223 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 2: partly because he likes their football team. As a general rule, 224 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 2: this is classically Trump behaves. You saw just do it 225 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: to the Europeans. The Europeans said, we don't want to talk. 226 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 2: He said, fine, fifty percent tariff next Monday. 227 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: And then he negotiates against them. 228 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 2: Oh facts, you do want to talk? 229 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and then he delayed is the I mean, 230 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: I by the you will you open this door? And 231 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: mister free trade, I remember you back in the day 232 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: I'm old enough to remember after and everything else, and 233 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: that was bipartisan. It was hardly new Gingridge speaker, Gingridge. 234 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: It was celebrated in my party. So you you've evolved, 235 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: a lot of folks have not, just you know, including 236 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: by the way Democrats. I mean, the tariff policies were 237 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: advanced and uh and increased against China in particular during 238 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: the Biden administration, but not across the board, not with 239 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: this fits and starts, not negotiating against ourselves. Tell me, 240 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,479 Speaker 1: you tell me, tell me that you find the approach 241 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: to tariff's under the Trump administration full hearty uh and 242 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: not necessarily productive at this stage? Or am I missing 243 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: this great negotiators capacity to deliver punches like a chess master. 244 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: Five months from now? Are year four? Well? 245 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: I think I think a couple of things. One I 246 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 2: would say, looking back, I was wrong. 247 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: Do you say that conveniently or do you I mean, no, I. 248 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 2: Say that because I evolved over ten I'll give you 249 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 2: the best example. I really thought, as did most of 250 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 2: the people who studied it, that opening up China economically 251 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 2: was a great step towards a more open China. And 252 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: I totally misunderstood Dung Challpegs Southern tour where he gave 253 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: the speeches about markets and said, you know, I don't 254 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 2: care whether it's a black cat or a white cat, 255 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 2: as long as it catches the rat, and sounded like 256 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 2: he was really talking about openness. Well, a couple of 257 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 2: years ago, I did a book called Trump and China, 258 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: and I went back and did a lot of research, 259 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 2: and I was frankly pretty embarrassed. I mean, Dung Shaopeng 260 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: was one of the twenty four people in Paris who 261 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: create the Chinese Commnist Party. He leaves Paris at the 262 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 2: end of World War One, goes to Moscow and spends 263 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: a year at Lenin University studying Marxism. Leninism. He is saying, 264 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 2: and none of us caught this. We have to have 265 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 2: a market to create enough prosperity to strengthen the party's 266 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 2: grip on the country, because if people stay too poor, 267 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 2: they're going to throw the party out. So I'm not 268 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: going to an open market so I can open up China. 269 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 2: I'm going to open market so I can sustain the dictatorship. 270 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 2: And by the way, since it is a dictatorship and 271 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 2: since we are China, if I get to rip you off. 272 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 2: That's fine, now part of my education. After I left 273 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 2: the speakership, I was approached by a former Walmart president 274 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 2: who's going to do a deal in China, and he 275 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 2: thought having a former speaker would help given negotiating. So 276 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: my lawyer talked to the Chinese lawyers and after he 277 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: looked at the proposed contract, he said, let me get 278 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: this straight. You can you can define what his interest 279 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 2: is worth on any given day, and you can buy 280 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 2: it at your definition. They said, yeah, that's how we 281 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 2: do things. He's not with my client. So it's been 282 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: looking at that. And then in the European case, the Europeans, 283 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 2: and this is a genuine tragedy, and I think you 284 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 2: have to read JD. Vans's speeches in Paris and Munich 285 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 2: in this context. And again I'm a European historian. I've 286 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: lived in four European countries and I have an enormous 287 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: affection for Europe. Historically, the Europeans decided to go to 288 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 2: litigation and regulation rather than innovation, literally the exact opposite 289 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 2: of Silicon Valley. 290 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: That's interesting. 291 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 2: In the long run, that's a losing game. So what 292 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 2: they have to do is they have to somehow tax 293 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 2: Amazon or Apple or Google or Meta or Microsoft because 294 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 2: they literally can't compete with them, and this isn't so 295 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 2: they rig the game in clever ways. And for a 296 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: very long time we operated within a model of somehow 297 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 2: trying to get to a balanced world where it would 298 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 2: also you know, the World Trade Organization would work. I 299 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 2: mean I was for China joining the WTO, and then 300 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 2: you realize after a while it just this current system 301 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: doesn't work. Now what Trump has done, which I don't 302 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 2: candidly don't think he's explained very well. Trump is a 303 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: reversion to the late nineteenth century Republican model, best articulated 304 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 2: by William McKinley, that we are going to have higher 305 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: tariff walls, we're going to have higher paid workers, we're 306 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 2: going to have huge prosperity, and in the end, because 307 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 2: we're the largest economy, we have and I mean he 308 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 2: loves this. Yeah, he knows in every negotiation, including China, 309 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 2: in the end, he is the bank they're going to 310 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 2: have to negotiate with it. Sure, And so he's now 311 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 2: going to have an exciting and enthusiastic six or eight months. 312 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 2: I tell all of my friends, do not look at 313 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 2: your stock until August, right. 314 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: Or the lack of stock in the warehouse because of 315 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: all the indecision and the business chill. I mean, a 316 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: lot of people that aren't going to make it five months. 317 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: That's my fear and disproportionate number out here in America's 318 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: largest economy, California, with all that goods movement, that dock 319 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: workers and truckers, and obviously the small business supply chains. 320 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it's being felt. It's pretty profound. I hope 321 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,239 Speaker 1: there's an endgame here, but time is not on the 322 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: side of a lot of these small entrepreneurs. 323 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 2: I think that's right. Look, there's gonna be a lot 324 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 2: of floundering around, and ultimately we may be at a 325 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 2: better future, but the interim is going to be I 326 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 2: tell people, this is not a beer party on a 327 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 2: houseboat on a quiet lake. This is newing in the 328 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 2: rapids of a wild river. And that's just a fact. 329 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: All right, Let's go back, just briefly, because I'd be 330 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: remiss if we didn't talk about it. So I here's 331 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: this is how I spent my Memorial Day. I somehow 332 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: landed on a New Hampshire town hall that you and 333 00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: President Clinton conducted together. It was shockingly civil tuned in 334 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: because I was expecting the opposite, and the fact that 335 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 1: the President of the United States, the Speaker of the 336 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: House of Representatives, at the peak of their differences, engaged 337 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: in a civil conversation. It makes me long for those 338 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: days or wait or not, because my reflection was one 339 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: of critique and constant you know, just you know, confrontation, victriol, 340 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: government shutdowns. So which was it? What was your relationship like? 341 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: Do you remember that day in New Hampshire? What the 342 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: hell were you two thinking? And what's happened to our 343 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: country since? And how how much do you feel, mister 344 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: speaker in the lunch conversation responsible for the first some 345 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: of that sort of toxicity as some have described in 346 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: our politics as a relations to the relationship that you 347 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: had with our party, our party with you and the 348 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 1: contract with American Oh. 349 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 2: Wellther you just managed to ask about three different questions. 350 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: I did, Yes. 351 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 2: So off, Gwen and I had a I think remarkably 352 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 2: good personal relationship. We were about the same age group, 353 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 2: We're both we're both inherently graduate students. We like to 354 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 2: sit around and shoot the breeze about occasionally late at night. 355 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 2: I go down and have a drink with him, and 356 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: we just bsked. I mean it was just you know, 357 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 2: as you know, he is one of the great Yes, 358 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: it's in American history. I mean all that does relax 359 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 2: and let him roll for a while. And so in 360 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 2: that sense, what happened was which was, which was? And 361 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 2: I wrote a book on it called March to the Majority. 362 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: We spent sixteen years growing on Majority. All of it's 363 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 2: standing on Reagan's shoulders. The contract is entirely Reagan, but 364 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 2: when we won, because we had based everything we were 365 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 2: doing on the American people, So every single item in 366 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 2: the contract is seventy percent or better. There's a big 367 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: fight in the White House in June of ninety five 368 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 2: and Reagan's staff, I mean Carter Clinton's staff says, you've 369 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 2: got to fight Gingrich. You know, you owe it to 370 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 2: the to the party. And Clinton, Clinton, who had been 371 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 2: beaten in nineteen eighty for reelection and knew that there 372 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 2: wasn't fun, said to them, I do that. I want 373 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 2: to lose. I'm not going to fight Gingrich. I'm going 374 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 2: to protect the things that I have to protect, and 375 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: I'm going to take shots I didn't want to can 376 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 2: but I want to work with him because if I 377 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 2: work with him, I'll probably get reelected, and I like 378 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 2: being in the White House. And it was a huge braw. 379 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,239 Speaker 2: I mean I remember one point, Leon Panetta. We were 380 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 2: in a negotiating session and Panetta was screaming at him 381 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 2: and saying, you can't give that away. We had Democrats 382 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 2: who lost their seats because they voted for that, and 383 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 2: Clinton's long, yeah, but I don't want to lose my seat, 384 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 2: you know, And then he turned to me and said, 385 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 2: I guess I can't do that one. This may surprise you. 386 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 2: We negotiated for thirty five days, face to face. We 387 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 2: produced this. 388 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: I mean literally the two of you in the room, 389 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: not outsourcing. 390 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 2: Staff other people around, but the two us sitting across 391 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 2: the table for thirty five days, and we produced the 392 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 2: only four balanced budgets in a century. And we did 393 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 2: it because we listened to each other and we talk 394 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 2: with each other. Now, I was a harsh partisan for 395 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 2: a reason you'll understand perfectly. I mean it's what you 396 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 2: have not You haven't really had the kind of quality 397 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 2: of opposition you should have in California that Methought goes 398 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 2: out and spends sixteen years and gradually becomes the majority, 399 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 2: which is tragic. It's not good for the state. 400 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear you again. I mean I get that 401 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: argument absolutely, yeah, so sincerely, Yeah, No, So I. 402 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 2: Had to be polarizing because I'm the minority. I mean, 403 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: if I'm going to get in, I've got to make 404 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 2: sure that people decide not to vote for the Democrats. 405 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: And so it's not your natural state. I mean it was, 406 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean it was. It was a very 407 00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: intentional strategy. 408 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: I mean, like this, because I think in some ways 409 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 2: you'll identify my natural state is winning. 410 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: There you go, I appreciate that. 411 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 2: If sitting for thirty five days wins, I'm for winning fighting. 412 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 2: If closing the government for twenty seven days is a 413 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 2: necessary prelude negotiate, I'm for closing the government for twenty 414 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 2: seven days. But they were It's not a personality thing. 415 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 2: They were instrumentalities of getting something done. 416 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: And so that town Hall sort of reflected that that 417 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: you guys had a civil conversation outdoors in New Hampshire. 418 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: I think he said you happened to be there already 419 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: he was coming down. Do you remember it at all? 420 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, Bo Bob Dole had we had this deal. Don't 421 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 2: wanted to run for president, and he didn't want me 422 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 2: because I was the brand new guy on the block 423 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 2: and I was nationally pretty popular at that time. He 424 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 2: didn't want me to run for president. So he loaned 425 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 2: me his entire New Hampshire organization, and I went up 426 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: and toured New Hampshire. And while we were up there, 427 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 2: we suddenly heard, Oh, Bill Clinton's going to be here, 428 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 2: and so we promptly said to the press, wouldn't it 429 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 2: be great to get together and have a debate about 430 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 2: or a dialogue about election reform. Well, the White House 431 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 2: suddenly gets this call from the press corps. Is the 432 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 2: President willing to sit down with new Gingrich in New Hampshire. 433 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 2: You can imagine what Clinton's staff said. Wow. And so 434 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 2: they then interviewed me, and I said I'd be delighted 435 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 2: because a great thing for America to have the two 436 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 2: of us told, oh, I wish one. Clinton goes, oh, yeah, 437 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: I guess we'll do it. And if you watch it, 438 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: I mean he's very good. 439 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean candidly, it was not I didn't 440 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: enjoy it. You were. You were very good. I mean, 441 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: answered tough questions. I mean a lot of seniors are 442 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: there and you're talking about, you know, cuts to their 443 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: programs and others. I mean, it was, it was, it was. 444 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: It was a remarkably civil conversation at the highest level. 445 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: And but there's not been anything like that since well. 446 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 2: You know, it was a tragedy. There's a book called 447 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 2: The Pact, written by guy I think a Duke, in 448 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 2: which he found all the papers, interviewed people. Bill and 449 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 2: I actually had an agreement in late ninety seven that 450 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 2: we were going to launch an effort in ninety eight 451 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 2: to reform Medicare and social security, and he would do 452 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: it in the State of the Union. I would do 453 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 2: it in a major speech in Georgia, and we were 454 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 2: going to work together. And then Lewinsky occurred. Well, at 455 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 2: that point I had to become partisan, and he had 456 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 2: to go to the left because it was the left 457 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 2: that was going to save him, and so boom. But 458 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 2: the book's kind of fascinating because it's really true. We 459 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 2: did a lot of We created the Heart Rudman Commission, 460 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 2: which was the deepest and biggest review of national security 461 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 2: since nineteen forty eight. And actually after I stepped down, 462 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 2: even though I had helped him impeach him in the house. 463 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 2: They called him, said would you like to serve on 464 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 2: the commission? Since you created it? She said yes, So 465 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 2: so it just did that kind of relationship. 466 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 1: It's fascinating. And you reminded me of the impeachment. I mean, 467 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: so what do you And it was the third part 468 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: of that three legged stool question. And forgive me for 469 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: not articulating it more effectively. But and again this is 470 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: not an indictment, but it was in the conversation of 471 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: Lunch who said he was never more proud to be 472 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: associated with anything than the Contract with America, which was 473 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 1: fascinating to me, how quick he was to not only 474 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,239 Speaker 1: defend it, but how reverential he thought it was at 475 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: the time, in terms of just being a communication document, 476 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: how it had transparency, how it did represent, as you said, 477 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: the will of the American people, at least in terms 478 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: of the seventy percent threshold, and the fact that you 479 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: submitted it to the public, meaning you tested that theory. 480 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: But the impeachment, the toxicity, the winning at all costs 481 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: hardly new in novel and politics. So I'm not suggesting 482 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: you're the OG in this space. But the tea part 483 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: people connect this moment to those moments? Is that fair unfair? 484 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: Did Democrats oversimplify? 485 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: I think we founally mishandled the impeachment, and I think 486 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 2: it was partly because of Kenneth Starr. In my mind, 487 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 2: the impeachment was about committing perjury, and it actually goes 488 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: back to arguments we have today about one or not 489 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 2: whether the Supreme Court is ruled. And I suspect that 490 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court already ruled, we wouldn't have had a 491 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 2: leg to stand on. But the question was it was 492 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 2: pretty clear that he had been convicted of committing perjury, 493 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 2: which you know is a follow me, and in fact, 494 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: he later on was barred from practicing law for five 495 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 2: years in Arkansas. I thought it was important as a 496 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 2: matter of constitutional record that a president should be held accountable. 497 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 2: But when Starr came out with his report, it was 498 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: so lurid and so related to sex that it poisoned 499 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 2: the whole project. I'll never forget that summer. I was 500 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 2: home in August and my two daughters and I went 501 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 2: to lunch at Okay Cafe, and and they both looked 502 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 2: at it, and they said to me, if our four oh 503 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: one case get destroyed, because of some stupid intern We're 504 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 2: going to be really pissed off. I thought, okay, I 505 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,479 Speaker 2: had clearly misunderstood the American people and how they were 506 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 2: going to rank, how this was going to work. And 507 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 2: in a way, Clinton's a whole behavior from ninety two 508 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 2: on changed the whole context in which you deal with 509 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 2: sexual issues in politics. Yeah, you couldn't imagine the Hillary 510 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: Clinton Donald Trump the last debate in a pre Bill 511 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 2: Clinton world. That's insponsible. 512 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: Well, and of course Bannon bringing out the ghosts of 513 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: the past in the front row of that debate as well. 514 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 2: That it was Bannon who said to me, we concluded 515 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 2: she was going to go to the basement and we 516 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 2: were going to get there first. 517 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a look. Look in closing, give me 518 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: something more optimistic. Are we get Look, I'm new scum? Yeah, 519 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: mean here we are. I appreciate your book. Like June third, 520 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: we got We've got Trump's triumph. But in new scum 521 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: everything's scum. This, this sort of divisiveness, this everyone's longing 522 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: to figure out a way to get damn back together 523 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: and start to solve problems. 524 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 2: Says a historian, One of two things has to happen either, 525 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 2: there has to be a very concerted effort to reach 526 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: out and to try to find bipartisan ways to work together. 527 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 2: I just did a podcast with Ted Cruz, who had 528 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 2: worked with the Amy Kloboshar, the Democrat from Minnesota on 529 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 2: the cour you would be very aware of just last week, 530 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 2: jump sign that bill right, totally bipartisan. Yeah, and it's 531 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 2: possible that you could see just enough bipartisanship on practical 532 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: things begin to reknit the system. Uh. Otherwise, what has 533 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 2: to happen is one side of the it has to win. 534 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 2: I mean, historically, when you're in a period where both 535 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 2: sides think it's life and death, and both sides think 536 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: they potentially could win or lose, the drive to more 537 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 2: and more extremism. I was right struck. Alan Gwelso is 538 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 2: an extraordinary professor of Abraham Lincoln, and Welso wrote me 539 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 2: at one point in the two thousand and four campaign 540 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 2: and said, the level of vitriol against Trump resembles the 541 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 2: level of vitriol against Lincoln among Southern slaveholders in the 542 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 2: eighteen sixty campaign. He said, you can row almost an 543 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 2: exact parallel, and it's because both the left in its 544 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 2: modern form, and the slaveholders actually saw their way of 545 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: life about to be extinguished. I mean Trump is a 546 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: mortal threat if you're AOC. He's not just a competitor. 547 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: But if he wins, her world has shrinks radically. So 548 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 2: you either have to get to a point where one 549 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 2: side clearly one this is FDR in thirty four thirty six, 550 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 2: where he wins so decisively that everybody operates within the 551 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 2: Rooseveltian world Jefferson after eighteen hundred, I would hope you 552 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 2: could have a combination. That is, I encourage constantly finding 553 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 2: ways to be bipartisan, because I think it's better for 554 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 2: the country. It's how the founding fathers designed the system. 555 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 2: They wanted to make it so hard that it's very, 556 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: very difficult, as we just saw in the House, for 557 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 2: a purely partisan effort to work. Yeah, and that's by design. 558 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 2: I mean they wanted to avoid dictatorship by creating a 559 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,959 Speaker 2: machine so hard to work that we can't we can 560 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 2: barely get it to work voluntarily. 561 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. And you have a chapter in the 562 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: book you talk about the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary, 563 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: and you know, and our pride and the best of 564 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: Greek democracy and the Roman Republic, three co equal branches 565 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: of government. I hope that's the spirit that defines that. 566 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: I have two final questions over under simple questions, Speaker 567 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: Jeffreys sixty percent. 568 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 2: Chance, oh forty five? 569 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: Okay, Well see we're gonna have to have another episode 570 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: on that. And then twenty twenty eight, President Vance. 571 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 2: Probably runs against Governor Newsom. Vice President Advance runs against Advance. 572 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: And look at some of your other candidates. I mean, 573 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 2: the governor, of all due respect, the governor of Illinois 574 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 2: as a presidential can give me a break. 575 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not getting the middle, but I would 576 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: not be at all shocked to have a Newsome Advance election. 577 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: Well that's a hell of a way to end this podcast. 578 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: By the way, I appreciate you doing this. Uh it's 579 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: it's a hell of a thing, and I hope folks 580 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: got a lot out of it. I certainly did. And 581 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: congratulations on your forty fourth book, Trump's Triumph on sale 582 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: June third, good sale. Good to see you, Thank you, sir. 583 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun. I hope you enjoyed it.