WEBVTT - External Exam - Recovering Missing Persons with United Search Corps Founder, Doug Bishop 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:09.600 Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:20.079 Hi, everyone, welcome to Mother Knows Death. Recently, on Mother 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:23.160 Knows Death, we talked about a local news story involving 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:26.439 three cars pulled out of the river, one of which 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.960 that had human remains belonging to a woman who was 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.800 missing for fourteen years. It's always shocking when a missing 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:36.080 person is found years later, but this case was even 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:40.040 more shocking because the body was not found by police, 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:44.839 but it was found by a nonprofit missing person's advocacy 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:49.320 organization called United Search Corps. On today's External Exam, we 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:52.440 will be talking to Doug Bishop, who is an underwater 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.880 search and rescue expert as well as founder of United 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:58.520 Search Corps. Hi, Doug, Welcome to the show. 0:00:59.040 --> 0:00:59.960 Thank you for having me. 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.240 Thanks so much for being here. I just learned about 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:05.560 your organization and I can't wait to share it with 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.759 all of our listeners because it's so great. But before 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:11.840 we start talking about this recent case, I want to 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.080 know a little bit about your background, like how did 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:18.119 you get interested in underwater search and recovery? 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:23.240 Right, pretty much by accident. I've spent my entire life 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:28.039 in the towing industry, and several years ago I got 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:34.000 into recovering vehicles underwater, utilizing different technology to discover vehicles 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:37.680 in order to recover them for environmental purposes, and it 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:42.839 just completely transformed into helping families full time to find 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:46.360 their missing loved ones, particularly in missing ursus cold cases 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:49.120 where people are missing and also missing with vehicles. 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:54.400 So that is why you started this organization. What made 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.600 you feel like there was a need for this particular organization, 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.440 Were you having people to you or what made you 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:03.080 decide to start this organization. 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:06.640 Well, after being a part of solving dozens of cold 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:11.320 cases in similar fashion, we you know, came to the 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.040 conclusion that, you know, there's obviously a big need for 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:19.119 this type of specialized searching within missing persons cases. When 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.800 you bring up the element of cold cases, you know, 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:26.600 then you're now factoring in different agencies a lack of 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.400 resources in order to work cold cases. You know, some states, 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:34.040 in local municipalities, they don't even have the budgets for it. 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:39.120 So we're encroaching on what uncovered a gray area within 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:43.160 law enforcement, especially when it comes to the utilization of 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:48.800 sonar within searches, and we deemed it necessary to form 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:53.400 a nonprofit so that we can hopefully one day get 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:54.920 the support that we need to do this on a 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:59.120 large scale, but also give back and correct the gray 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:02.440 area which I would just referred to within law enforcement, 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.239 and start training and consulting with agencies like we've been 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.720 doing in order to put those who are in place 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:12.760 to do it full time, you know, pretty much equip 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.080 them with the knowledge and wherewithal to do it themselves. 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:23.320 Does your organization just specialize in underwater rescue or is 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.840 it for any person that's missing someone or has a 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.160 cold case that has not been solved. 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.000 You know, each case is unique, no case, no case 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.400 is the same, you know, area is the same. We 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:39.680 rely solely on donations, so we're at the mercy of 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.440 donations to do any type of search. So number one, 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.000 it's our funding. Do we have the funding to do 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:51.200 a search and or are we the right resource for that? 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:55.280 We work with other organizations when we're not the right resource. 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:59.720 We do searches that are on land as well. And 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:02.400 also a big part of what we do is advocate 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:06.560 for families. Most of the families that we come into 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:09.640 contact with have never had any help at all, and 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.400 they don't necessarily know or we're aware that anything like 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:16.760 this even exists. So, you know, advocating for a missing 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.560 person and their family is the number one biggest thing 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.600 that we do, not to mention searching as well as 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.480 you know, bringing answers to the family, like we've been 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:28.920 able to do, you know, several times over the last 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:30.160 couple of weeks here in Jersey. 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:36.680 So how does a family This is my question because 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.159 I've never heard of anything like this, and I love 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:42.080 that we get to share this and this case hopefully 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.320 will really blow this open for you because it's such 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.360 a great thing that you're doing. It's just how does 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:52.440 somebody even find out about you that that just has 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.119 a case like this? They do maybe a Google search 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:58.520 or something and come across your website. How do they 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:00.960 go about contacting you info? 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:03.840 You know, ad United search core dot org. That's our 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:07.400 email for case processing and also our website, United search 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:10.560 core dot org. And you know a lot of our 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.880 cases come through agencies from detectives themselves and family members 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:18.440 or simply community members that reach out that are familiar 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.880 with the work that I do, such as stories that 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.000 are written podcasts like yourself the podcast as you're doing 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:29.039 right now. Will fall on the years of some missing 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.480 person's family or a community members somewhere that will take 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.440 the time to look into cases in their area and 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:37.599 send us an email saying, hey, guys, we found this 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:41.000 case in our area, and so forth. Regardless of how 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:44.200 we get a case, we vet them and then we 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:46.960 enter them into our system. That way, when we're in 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.520 particular areas, you know, we can reach out to family 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.240 or local law enforcement to be utilized as a tool 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:54.719 for that particular case. 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.400 So when you get cases submitted to you, what what's 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:00.680 the process like? Do you have a board that you 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.279 all sit down and talk. Is this something that we 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:07.000 could handle? And if so, how I guess you did 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:09.720 say earlier that there were times that you think it's 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:11.440 not within the realm of what you do, and then 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:13.120 you would send it elsewhere. 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:17.560 Yeah, So we number one, we process every email our 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:21.479 volunteers do when they come in. Then they're passed on 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.840 to another layer of vetting and then you know, either 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.320 myself or one of our other specialists will look into it, 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.680 which we're all volunteers. Basically none of us get paid 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.760 to do this. And when we're able to vet them 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:38.680 to make sure that somebody is missing. Uh, then you know, 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:41.039 it just breaks that barrier of okay, this is a 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:44.320 legit case because for those of you who are listening 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:46.680 and watching this, there were half a million people go 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:49.520 missing every year and the majority of them are found. 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:51.720 So a lot of the missing person's cases that do 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.599 get turned into us end up being cases, you know, 0:06:55.800 --> 0:07:01.279 just from older information that haven't been updated, articles and posts, podcasts, videos, 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.200 you name it. So it's really important that we vet them, 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.719 and you know, our process mainly is, you know, is 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.480 this a legit case? For one? Is there components here 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:14.880 that forced us to reach out to law enforcement? Are 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.040 their components? You know? Is their family involved? Is there 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.480 no family involved? All of those different things we break 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:25.040 down within that case once we know it's a legit case, 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.760 and then we decide our board decides whether or not 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.320 we have the resources to take on that case or 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.360 where the appropriate resource and it just pretty much gets 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:38.880 disseminated like that, you know, according to you know a 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:42.080 bunch of different moving factors. There's every missing person's case 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:46.480 is different, every area is different. The circumstances within those cases, 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.440 the individual that's missing, there's no case that's the same. 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:52.520 So it's pretty complex. 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:57.040 And for this particular case that we're talking about. So 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.760 this family called you, how how can you give us 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.640 a timeline as to when they contacted you about their 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:05.840 family member that had been missing for so long. 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:10.560 Yeah, so we initially did not get notified by family 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:15.400 on this particular case. The Black and Missing Foundation did 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:20.760 a post on their platform mentioning the case details which 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.040 Black and Missing Foundation is a great advocacy group for 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.960 spreading awareness for people that are missing. They mentioned that 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:30.360 there was a vehicle involved in this disappearance and quite 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.040 a few people sent us emails in regards to this 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:37.480 and us being in the region over the last month 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:41.800 and a half, we had the opportunity, in between other 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:45.880 operations in New York to come and perform searches on 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:50.600 this particular case, and thankfully we were successful. I'm here 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:54.600 in the Philly Camden region. We have seventeen different cases 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.800 where people are missing and missing with vehicles, so there's 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.200 a lot of searching that's going to be taking place, 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:02.679 you know, over the next several weeks. 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:09.360 What made you guys look in that particular area for 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:10.080 the car. 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.400 Pretty much every case that we do, before we do it, 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:18.120 we develop a profile on the person that we're looking for, 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:21.520 which is, you know, what information do we have with 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.240 the who, what, when, where? Why? The the who were they? 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:28.760 Where were they employed? Their home address, what were their hobbies? 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.520 Where did their lovers live, their family members live? As 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.360 much information as we can gather to determine where we search. 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:38.600 In this particular case, the biggest thing was, you know, 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.559 according to law enforcement, her last known whereabouts were at 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:46.280 her home that evening. Her son actually spent the evening 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:51.080 with her, left around eleven PM, and several hours later 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:58.280 she you know, just vanished. Her children visited her house 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.280 once they realized she was gone, noticed that she had 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:05.480 not returned, so we knew it was pretty accurate that 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:09.400 her last known location was her home address. Verify location. 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:13.200 At that point, without any other you know, mitigating factors 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.840 or something taking us into a different area, It's then okay, 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.839 weird need to identify the closest body of waters that 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.680 are deep enough to conceal a vehicle, which in her scenario, 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:26.959 she was just several blocks away from the Cooper River itself. 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.400 Where we ended up locating her vehicle was just approximately 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:35.400 a mile down the Cooper River near a park area 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.719 where there's basically no obstructions for a vehicle to enter 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.880 the water. So the Cooper River was our main focus 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:47.520 to start with. Typically, you know, we didn't go from 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.200 there was the next closest body of water, which you know, 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:53.360 in this scenario, it would have been the Delaware River 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:57.760 or one of the other smaller reservoir ponds and so 0:10:57.800 --> 0:10:58.640 forth in the region. 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:02.840 Yeah, and I guess that would make sense that she 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.080 would be driving around her neighborhood. I'm very familiar with 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:08.320 the area because I told you earlier. My husband's a 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.200 firefighter there, and I've lived around here my entire life. 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.280 I just want to describe to everyone with this particular 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:18.240 area where you found the car, is that every single 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.560 time we drive by it because it's the Cooper River 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.200 is a big river. But this particular area where the 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:29.480 car was found is behind this semi seedy strip mall 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:32.240 area and behind the pub, which is like this awesome 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.280 restaurant that we love. But every time you go back there, 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.240 you just you're just like, something good's not happening back here. 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:40.160 It's just like a little shady back here. 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.959 Yeah it's really dark. It's a really dark area. 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:48.120 Yeah, it's just dark and it just looks. It just looks. 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.840 It's not It's funny because the Cooper River is very beautiful. 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.600 On the other side of Route on thirty, it's there's 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:58.839 people rowing and sitting there eating like picnic. And then 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.560 on the other side of the road, it's it's nobody's 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:03.600 just sitting back there to look at the pretty water. 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:06.040 It just looks a little shady, I guess, I would say, 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.679 back there. So you so the car then was not 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.160 sticking up out of the water. You went, how did 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:16.040 you how did you first determine that there were car 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:20.600 cars under the water at that at that particular area. 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:25.520 Yeah, So we we arrived later in the day and 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:30.640 you know, we put our equipment into the river, I 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:36.080 would say, adjacent to the wah Wah downstream from where 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:40.400 we ended up locating right there near park. We immediately 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:44.480 detected a vehicle right there off the park's edge. We 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:49.000 set up our dive equipment we don't want it, identified 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:52.880 that vehicle, and then continued the search up the river 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:58.600 into the Cooper River. Because we've previously searched other parts 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.079 of the Cooper River in the past, so this particular 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:06.160 stretch was of importance to clear this time, and when 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:08.320 we got up there to where we located her vehicle, 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:12.600 we located an additional five vehicles in that entire little 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:16.439 stretch there, so a total of six the vehicles that 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.680 were able to be removed, we did remove all three 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:21.760 of them, one of them in which the one that 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:24.080 did contain Bernardine's remains. 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.680 Well, that's just so amazing. It's just crazy to think 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.280 that so many people just drive their car into the 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.320 river and it's there, nobody knows. 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.040 Yeah, that particular area, you know, which is great for 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.040 you guys being local, and I'm sure you have a 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:44.959 lot of local following, you know, advocating for a safety barrier. 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:49.720 There is real deal. There's no obstruction, let alone even 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.000 a curb at that location to prevent a vehicle from 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:56.520 going in. We did move the picnic table right in 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:00.360 front of that little area right there, but a picnic 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.600 table was not going to stop you know, someone having 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:08.400 a medical accident or somebody that is intoxicated or simply 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.960 recklessly driving and loses control and enters right into the river. 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:16.880 One vehicle is one thing. Two vehicles, three vehicles, six 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:23.280 vehicles in that area. Obviously there's over you know, whatever 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:25.480 you want to label it that. You know, there's a 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:29.920 risk factor there that has been identified. Big time vehicles 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:33.360 are going in there. Let alone, we're addressing somebody that 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:37.560 has lost their life in doing so. So there's it's 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.280 an issue there that needs to be corrected for, you know, 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:41.840 so this doesn't happen in the future. 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:46.400 Do you have any idea what the other cars were 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.280 doing in there? Did they did they have license plates 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.160 on them or that's I mean, that's just something you 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:53.120 don't really deal with. 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.240 Yeah, So we we identify all the vehicles as much 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.680 as we can during our searching that you know, when 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:03.880 we give that data to the local, state or federal 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.080 agencies in the area, uh, you know, they can decipher 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.480 whether or not they're connected to other major crimes and 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.880 so forth. Most of the majority, of overwhelming majority of 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:17.080 vehicles that we find underwater are connected to you know, 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:21.960 violent crimes and insurance fraud and and so forth. You know, 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:25.240 no cars underwater for a good reason. So it's it's 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:27.560 it's always alarming to find a car, even though you know, 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.160 we've we've found so many of them, you know, across 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.000 the country, and it's good to get them out. It's 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.240 not only is there evidence possibly in those vehicles, but 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.960 those you know, the tons of toxins within the glues, 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.040 the oils, the synthetics, they don't need to be in 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:45.280 our waterways if we can get them out. So it's 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:47.360 it's good that we were able to get the three 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:50.680 that were recoverable out of the river there. 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:55.080 What's the feeling like when when you pull the car 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:57.480 out and it's the one that you were looking for? 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:03.120 It's very power, powerful stuff, you know, we're in those moments, 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:07.360 you're realizing that you're able to give a family and 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:12.000 a community answers to a nightmare. You know, no human 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:17.280 being is meant to go through a tragedy and losing 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.640 somebody and not knowing what happened. That's the worst. We're 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.640 not wired. Nobody is wired for that. And when you 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:29.200 don't have those answers, you know, you're you're forced to 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:33.920 put up walls and create walls of what ifs, and 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:36.920 those things just sit there and they sit there, and 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.400 what it built within those walls because you put them 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.920 up is torture. It is torture being in between those walls. 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:46.880 So having answers to something you know and that now 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.960 allows you to process and grieve and move on no 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:53.160 matter how horrific the loss is. If you have the answers, 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.440 you can process it. You know, without those answers, you 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:58.720 can't process it. And that's that's just a real life 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.600 nightmare that we're just not meant to go through. So 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:07.080 knowing that you can relieve I can relieve those families 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.600 of you know, that type of grief and relieve them 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.679 is there really aren't words within the human language that 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:17.280 can describe that. Really, it's it's powerful. 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.359 Yeah, I mean, what you're doing it's just so great. 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:22.960 I always say that on the podcast. We talk about 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:26.959 these stories all the time of people that you have 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.960 a loved one that goes missing, and there always has 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:34.160 to be some amount of hope that maybe she drove 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:36.760 away and she just had a mental breakdown and started 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:38.920 another life and she'll want to come back or something. 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:43.280 When you don't have a concrete body and think about this, 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.040 when like kids get kidnapped or anything, it's just so 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.159 terrible to have. It must be the worst thing that 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:51.399 a human has to go through, really, So that's so 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:57.000 cool that you're able to help people with that. So 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.000 when you found her car, obviously you were going to 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.800 open it and see what was inside, and I know 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.680 that there were human remains inside. I'm assuming after fourteen 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:12.080 years it was just skeletonized remains. What was that something 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.480 you were able to identify yourself. 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:16.160 Or is that? 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.920 I mean I know that you guys called the police 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:20.919 at some point and say, hey, we found this, but 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.320 you were able to identify that, Yeah. 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:28.720 We've and yeah we identified the vehicle. We identified you know, 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.680 the vehicle in the remains prior to notifying law enforcement. 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.760 That way, you know where we're not unjustly you know, 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.440 creating you know a lot of resources to be wasted. 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.200 So whenever we do make those notifications to law enforcement, 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.080 you know, we were pretty thorough with what we turn 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:52.520 over to them. And yeah, this vehicle it was identified 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:57.440 to be her after the fact during the recovery, which 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:03.920 Camping County Prosecutor's Office was absolutely thorough with their exhaustion 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:10.280 of resources and the resources capability was just really top notch. 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:14.280 I do this around the country, So when I say that, 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.040 I can say that, you know, that means a lot. 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.640 When I say that, don't take it lightly, because there's 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.760 a lot of there's a lot of this country that 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.439 our law enforcement does not have the capability or the 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:29.919 resources due to budgets and all of that type of stuff, 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:35.360 or simply that's just an adequate whereas though since I've 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:37.960 been here in Jersey has honestly been one of the 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:42.640 most impressive experiences on the recoveries that I've done recently 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:44.040 related to cold cases. 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:46.840 Well that's good to know because I live here. 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:51.959 Yeah, yeah, very thorough. The Medical Examiner's Office, the Prosecutor's Office, 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:58.800 Camdeon PD, the Belmoir dive team was lights out. They 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.199 were able to to get the job done. It it's 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:04.800 not easy to do this type of stuff in water. 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.720 You can't see there's because it's lights out, there's no eyes. 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.480 You got to use your ten ten eyes in order 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:15.080 to see underwater. And when you factor in currents and 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.440 also you know, doing something as serious as an underwater 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:23.119 forensics recovery, uh, there's there's very little room for error. 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:27.359 And the guys were just lights out with it. So 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:27.920 when you. 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.080 Call police and in these cases, is there ever any 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:35.480 like weirdness stepping on toast thing, you're you're working in 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:39.280 my jurisdiction thing, or how is your work received? 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.600 Never? I never have a problem, you know, communication is key, 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:48.840 respect is key. If I have twenty law enforcement representatives 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:52.359 out there, a good majority of them are familiar with 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:54.720 the work that I do. And also it's it's it's 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:58.200 how you carry yourself, it's how you represent yourself. And 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.880 you know, I just don't have that problem, thankfully. Knock 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:06.920 on wood. There's never a lot of egos involved. Obviously 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:10.080 after the fact. You know, when you involve media and 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:12.640 so forth, there you get a lot of the component 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:15.080 of how come this guy did it? And you know, 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:18.480 you know, the resources that we have, you know, tax 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:21.600 payers dollars going towards didn't do it. You always get 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:24.760 a lot of that. But what I do is specialize. 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:27.520 There is no training in law enforcement for what it 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:29.720 is that I do. Like they falls back on that 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:33.160 gray area that we identified, which is why we form 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:39.119 the nonprofit and the technology that I'm utilizing today didn't 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.679 exist when most of these people that we recover went missing. 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:45.959 So there's a there's a lot of different factors into hey, 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.640 why did this guy do it? And they didn't do it? 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.040 Outside of that, you know, those pretty much never have 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:54.880 a problem. It's always a pleasure to work with law 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:59.960 enforcement across the country. And it's surprising, you know how 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:02.600 a lot of times just kind of like surreal that 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:05.600 I'm even capable of doing these types of things. But 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:08.760 it keeps happening and happening and happening, and even though 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.360 we're sitting here discussing one of the cases that we've 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:15.560 recently saw, still just doesn't seem real. It's some pretty 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.080 extreme stuff. It's I mean, it's the kind of thing 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:23.680 that like miracles are made of, and it's just really surreal. 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:28.240 I was thinking that, like this family, because I want 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:30.280 to know what happened when you call them and what 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:34.040 their reaction was. They must think that it's a miracle 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:36.040 that you were able to do this for them. 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:42.159 Yeah, the family was absolutely amazing, just some of the 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:47.080 most genuine, caring, down earth people that you could ever meet. 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:50.919 And her children have lived the last fourteen years not 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:54.280 knowing where their mother is, their grandmother is, And that's 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:59.480 that's tough, you know, any family that loses their loved 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:02.679 one mentioned earlier, you know, it kind of you you 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:04.399 have to draw on the blanks. You have to what 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:06.960 if what happened, where are they? And then you have 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:09.800 all the nasty scammers in these cases, and I deal 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:11.880 with it in almost every cold case that I work with, 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:16.040 where people which attack these families and their most vulnerable moments, 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:18.919 knowing how desperate they are, and so you know, they 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:22.000 they go down these rabbit holes of these leads and 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:24.760 these people that are talking to them year after year 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:27.919 after year, and it's torture. It's absolute torture. But you 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:29.960 have to follow up on it as a family member 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:31.840 because you just want to find your loved one. You 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:33.880 just want you'll do anything to find your loved one, 0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:36.639 whether it's travel three states away like they did, and 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:40.360 you know all this other stuff that I really don't 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:44.479