1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you as always 3 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in war. Uh anyway, that's our 4 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: one and only super producer, Mr Max Williams. It's like, no, 5 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: it's sort of like war. What is it good for? 6 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: Absolutely nothing? I mean it's good for some things, depending 7 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: on which side of it you're on. Um. It has 8 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: been in the past and continues to be used as 9 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: a tool of international affairs, a tool of not diplomacy. 10 00:00:58,120 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: It's the opposite of diplomacy. That's the thing you try 11 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: before you get into war. But it has been used 12 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: as a way to make moves geopolitically, sort of what 13 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: we think of war as typically, right, Ben, Yeah, that's right, Noll, 14 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: we know that. Unfortunately, as catchy as the war song is, 15 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: it's not entirely accurate. War drives a lot of medical innovation, 16 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: a lot of scientific innovation. It is a violent, ugly thing, 17 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: but it has become an inherent part of geopolitics and 18 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: has been since ancient days. But today, and I lo 19 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,559 Speaker 1: if you're bringing up diplomacy today, we decided off air 20 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: to step into two with optimism and This is why 21 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: we wanted to bring this story to you. War is 22 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: such a dangerous, dangerous, tragic thing. It shouldn't surprise us 23 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: that once upon a time a bunch of countries got 24 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: together and said, okay, guys, enough, no more war. We're 25 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: gonna stop all wars um by signing an agreement, by 26 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: signing some paper that'll stop. It's sort of like the 27 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: equivalent of let's end racism by doing a change dot 28 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: org petition. Yeah, unfortunately, I mean, I hate to be 29 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: a negative Nancy or Noel Brown here, I guess, but 30 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,839 Speaker 1: it does feel a little bit aspirational, which I think 31 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: we can all applaud. But it also feels a little 32 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: bit laughable because, as we know, a lot of these 33 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: things are pretty non binding, and they do tend to 34 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: have plenty of loopholes that folkus can just dive right 35 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: through with very little precision needed. Yeah, exactly, And we 36 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: also know that, you know, I think a great comparison 37 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: be the idea of saying, Okay, we're going to eradicate 38 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: a disease by everyone signing a piece of paper that 39 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: says you're not going to get it. That's how we're 40 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: going to get rid of HIV or something like that, 41 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: Like it's the intentions can be good, but the intentions alone, 42 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: well boiler alert tell us what you think after the episode. 43 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: What we're talking about today is something called the Kellogg 44 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: Brand Pack of nineteen twenty eight, the idea that we 45 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: could as a species, as civilizations, just stop war by 46 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: saying it's illegal. Just wish it away, guys, wish harder. Uh, 47 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: you're not your vision boards not visionary enough. That's the problem. 48 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: So they so we've got to start first by saying 49 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: how this, how this came about. It starts with a 50 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: lot of context. Basically, the argument made to outlaw war 51 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: came about because before then people just accepted that war 52 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: was a quote legitimate interest of national policy. And that's 53 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: from a book called The Internationalist's Right by two very 54 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: smart Yale Law School professor or is Una A. Hathaway 55 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: and Scott J. Shapiro. There was an incident in sixteen 56 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: or three when a Dutch trader attacked and ransacked a 57 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: Portuguese ship outside of Singapore. And because of that point 58 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: that you just made ben about the idea of war 59 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: being a quote legitimate instrument of national policy, there was 60 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: a dude named Grotius Um, who was a legal scholar 61 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: who basically justified this encounter um, which ultimately you could 62 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: really just say was an act of looting uh and 63 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 1: ransacking with no international policy involved one way or the other. 64 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: But this guy Grotius made this legal justification of essentially 65 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: a Dutch pirate ship seizing you know, Portuguese goods completely 66 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: unlawfully um as an act of war um in his 67 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: book on the Laws of War and Peace that came 68 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: out in sixteen five, and that is what Hathaway and 69 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: Shapiro say became the text book of the law of 70 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: war and based on completely, in their opinions, spurious kind 71 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: of foundations, very shaky ground. Yeah. Yeah, not to be 72 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: confused with the absolute banger The Art of War by 73 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: Sun Zoo popular around the world nowadays. But yeah, Grotius 74 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: is is interesting because he essentially says any kind of 75 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: war of aggression is legal so long as the aggressors 76 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: provide some sort of justification, and even if those justifications 77 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: turn out to be b s straight malarkey, whomever wins 78 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: the war has a right to keep whatever they got 79 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: out of it, whether that's like land or resources. That's 80 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: right they make the whole might makes right arguments saying 81 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: that possession is not nine tenths of the law, but 82 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: in fact ten tenths of the law. And we even 83 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: know that whole the whole nine tenths thing doesn't really 84 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: hold up even as much as people wish it would. 85 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's pretty sketchy stuff. And essentially the justification 86 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: could be something as simple as I just wanted to 87 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: have that loot. It just seem like it should be, 88 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: you know, our loot. Why shouldn't we have that loot? 89 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure they did a better job than that, 90 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: But it's not much more complex than just kind of 91 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: trumping up some kind of bs reason that you attack 92 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: to foreign power and then you'd be you'd be off 93 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 1: scott free. Yeah, make it a war of defense. That's 94 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: one of the best moves. That's one of the most 95 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: common justifications you see, Like we had to attack these 96 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: people because they were actually aggressive toward us. Your mileage 97 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: may vary depending on what part of the world you 98 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: live in, but that's that's a very common um, a 99 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: common rationale. So this doesn't sound like much of a 100 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: good idea or even much of a legal justification, but 101 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: it did importantly put a couple of a couple of 102 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: handcuffs on things nations could do. One, it said that, 103 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: you know, if you're a nation, you can't go to 104 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: war to recapture stuff you law in a previous conflict, 105 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: because you lost, and now it is lawful for the 106 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: person the nation that beat you to own this. Uh. Secondly, 107 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: nations can't just jump in someone else's war. They cannot 108 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: change the terms on which they traded with belligerents. This meant, 109 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: in effect that other nations were obligated to look away. 110 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: Like if the peaceful religious nation state of Max Williams 111 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: is embroiled in a coastal battle with the expanding Empire 112 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: of the Brownians, then me over here in ben Bulin 113 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: stand cannot cannot inter see. You guys just have to 114 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: work it out yourself, according to Grotius. Otherwise you said, 115 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, you're just you're just killing people, You're just 116 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: spreading chaos. We need to have laws for war, which 117 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: sounds so contradictory. It does sound completely contradict Three And 118 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: there is a really wonderful New Yorker article called what 119 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: Happens when war is outlawed? By Louis Menan that was 120 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: published on September eleven. Seen Uh has a really great 121 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: little tagline, did a largely forgotten peace pack transform the 122 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: world we live in? And we're gonna unpack that today. 123 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,119 Speaker 1: Unpacked that today? Never mind. Anyhow, there is a point 124 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: in the article where he brings up um the Mexican 125 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: American War, for example, that began in eighteen forty six, 126 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: which you could in the same way that you could 127 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: view that Portuguese Dutch ship encounter. Um. It was just 128 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: a simple land grab, you know. It was essentially just 129 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: the Americans wanting to take what Mexico had and making 130 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: a justification for it, saying it was a matter of 131 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: unpaid debts, right, was what it was about at all. 132 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: It was just kind of a reason that allowed them 133 00:08:55,679 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: to fit this act of imperialism essentially to the framework 134 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: of a legal conflicts. Right now, we are somehow fighting 135 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: for justice, right, pay us what you owe us. And 136 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: you'll see this also in other wars throughout history. Sometimes 137 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: it would be aggressor will request a huge amount of 138 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: money knowing that the other party can't pay it back, 139 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 1: meaning that there will definitely be a conflict on the horizon. 140 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: This this is again, like you said, According to Hathaway 141 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: and Shapiro, Grotius is law of war explains why people 142 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: generally thought this would be a legal behavior in the 143 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: current system. And this is what they meant. This is 144 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: what Hathway and Shapiro mean when they refer to the 145 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: Old World Order, which set a cartoonishly low bar for 146 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: going to war. This was super convenient when you were 147 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: an imperial power expanding your empire. But then once you 148 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: and other impure real powers turned against each other, things 149 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: got a lot more tricky, like the First World War 150 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: turned into went from a regional conflict almost overnight to 151 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: this to pandemonia, bloody pandemonia. I love that you say 152 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: cartoon initially, ben Um, I think it really really applies 153 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: in this particular situation because remember in Looney Tunes there's 154 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: I think he says it multiple times, but Bugs Bunny 155 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: is in some way slighted by some aggressor, and then 156 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: he says, I hope you know or I hope you 157 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: understand that this means war. Uh. And the implication there 158 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: is all it takes for someone to just like slight 159 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: you or humiliate you in some small way, and that 160 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: there in and of itself is a just a justification 161 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: for all out scorched earth kind of behavior. Yeah, it's 162 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: very it's very much a matter of convenience for a 163 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: lot of people here. But after after the First World War, 164 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: folks were able to look around policymakers various genres, They 165 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: made eye contact with each other and they said, you know, 166 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: this isn't really working for anybody, so maybe we should 167 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: try something different. Uh. This is where the Kellogg brand 168 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: packed comes in. There were all these post war peace 169 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: movements in France and in the US for instance, that 170 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: advocated for straight up international disarmament. This is a radical idea, 171 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: and it's a very it's a very difficult idea because 172 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: disarmament only works if everybody does it right and and 173 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: and so the world is in a standoff, just like 174 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: in a Western film where every country is telling every 175 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 1: other country to put their gun down first. Uh. It's 176 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: it's tricky, but people were making progress. There were conferences 177 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: in d C and Uh. There were other things where 178 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: like the U s would start cooperating more with the 179 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: League of Nations in the World's Court, which was a 180 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: new thing in and of itself right, And also the 181 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: World Court I mean, these things did not exist, and 182 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: these all came as a direct response to how absolutely 183 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: devastating and horrible for just about everybody World War One was. Right. Yeah, absolutely, 184 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: And there's a great thought code article by Robert Longley 185 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: called the Kellogg briand Packed War Outlawed, which which gives 186 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: us a sense of the problem, and it gives us 187 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 1: a sense of what what people were trying to do, 188 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: even if it's utopian, even if it is as one 189 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: Max Williams said, uh, what was it? Blindly optimistic? Max? 190 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: I think I said blindly optimistic, which is a great 191 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: way to start the new year, because you're just so 192 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: optimistic before all of it just goes through utter absolute 193 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: And then I pointed out that I might just be 194 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: a little too nihilistic in two already. And nihilism and 195 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: optimism they don't have to be actually exclusive, or maybe 196 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: they do, I don't know. Well, you could be optimistically nihilistic, right, 197 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: that's true. That's a very good points. I'm having a 198 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: great day, having a great day. And and and also you 199 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 1: can be optimistic about the idea that everything is ultimately 200 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: a great big nothing. Yeah, so optimistic nihilism. I just 201 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: had to verify. This quote views the belief that there 202 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: is no underlying meaning to life from a perspective of hope. 203 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: The optimistic nihilist looks at a world lack of meaning 204 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: and purpose and says, hey, this is an opportunity to 205 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: create my own meaning, my own purpose. Oh my god, 206 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: I think that might be a little bit of each 207 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: of us. Yeah, alright, gotta make your own kind of music, 208 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: you know, there we go. Yeah, you gotta be the change. 209 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: I think that was from the Simpsons or Gandhi. So 210 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: these folks back in the nineteen twenties they, Okay, the 211 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: old system, the old world order, hinged on this very 212 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: low bar of what makes war legal. And so the 213 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: way we replaced this is not making more new rules exactly, 214 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: but it is to outlaw the concept of war itself. Uh. 215 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: And there's this interesting again, this from the book The Internationalists. 216 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: There's this interesting comparison the authors make where they know 217 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: it's something in the work of Salmon Levinson, and Levinson 218 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: talks about dueling. You know, now, at least in the 219 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: US love this. We can't resolve things with dueling. But 220 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: back in the day, as anyone who seeing Hamilton's nos 221 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: dueling was was a way for people to resolve conflicts. 222 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: And he said, look, people kept trying to change dueling 223 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: to make all these weird rules to make it seem 224 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: cooler or more civilized, but people were still dueling, and 225 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: then that means they were still killing each other. Yeah, 226 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: but instead of like outlawing dueling as a as a thing, Okay, well, 227 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: if you're gonna do it, you're gonna duel, but just 228 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: know that whoever gets killed, uh, and that that person 229 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: has now been a victim of a murderer that you 230 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: have done, as opposed to it having this like this 231 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: inherent amnesty. Right, if you kill someone in a duel, 232 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: that's fair play and you get to walk away and 233 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: you know, a wild West rules even I mean that 234 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: was later, but like dueling, was that still a form 235 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: of dueling and to solve a problem, the understanding was 236 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: that if you killed someone in a duel, it was 237 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: a fair fight and you could walk away from that. 238 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: And then the undertakers would just come out and drag 239 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: that poor sap away. But what they did was they 240 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: removed the amnesty, right, yeah they did. They said, yeah, well, 241 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: let's just call it murder as murder, you know, what 242 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: I mean. We have the benefit of retrospect, So it 243 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: does sound ridiculous for us to look back and say, oh, yeah, 244 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: murder was fine for a long time if it was 245 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: a duel, because a modern version of that would be like, oh, yeah, 246 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: you know, hitting someone with your car is fine as 247 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: long as it's a car fight. Otherwise it's an accident 248 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: and you've got to pay insurance. They're like, oh, I'm sorry, 249 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: it was it was a car fight. It was on purpose. 250 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: I hate that guy in the Honda Odyssey. Oh do 251 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: you think they had dueling insurance back in they way 252 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: to when an insurance even start to be a thing 253 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: as boring a topic as that would that sounds on 254 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: the surface, I think it would be actually very interesting. Yeah, 255 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: it would be, and it would be uh in no 256 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: small part. I think it would be a two parter episode, honestly, 257 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: because I had looked into this idea and it goes 258 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: back to I want to say, the seventeen hundreds. I'm 259 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: guessing off top of my head. Here, I have the 260 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: quickest of Google searches for us given to us. Max. 261 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: The first insurance company in the U. S. Dates back 262 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: to the colonial days. The Philadelphia contribution ship that's not 263 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: And guess who co founded it was Hamilton's Franklin, Ben Franklin. 264 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: Kind of hustle, he'd be into. It's such a racket, 265 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: and it's one of the kind of rackets only continues 266 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: to exist because of its like legacy and it being 267 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,360 Speaker 1: sort of like this this need that maybe was never 268 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: there before. Being creery Obviously, health insurance obviously is its 269 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: own thing. But what what would you do? Maybe maybe 270 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: that would just be like you would you know, dueling 271 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: insurance would be just a life insurance policy, you know 272 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: that would kick in in case you were killed in 273 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: a duel. Let's let's do it. Let's do a history 274 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 1: of insurance podcast because it will take us to a 275 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: very interesting place in the modern day. UM and the 276 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: the the idea. I think it's a wonderful idea. The 277 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: idea of insurance isn't just UM doesn't just refer to 278 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: the privatized industry that the US labors under today. Insurance 279 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: is also a kind of safety net in general. And 280 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: that's why France. France had a terrible time to World 281 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: War One. They wanted the insurance of international alliances. They 282 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: were like Germany is still giving off a bad vibe. 283 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: And it turns out, you know, that that bad vibe 284 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: would later prove to be correct. What it's sure would 285 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: that bad vibe definitely paid bad dividends in the form 286 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: of World War two and and the reign of Hitler 287 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: and all the horrible, horrible things that he did. Um, 288 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: so good on you France for clocking that vibe. Here's 289 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: the thing. Let's talk about the Pact in particular. We've 290 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: got this climate of isolationism. You know, let's not you know, 291 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: mess with foreign wars. Let's not get embroiled. It's just 292 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: too much. It could cause us too much mutually assured destruction. 293 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: So let's um follow this dueling idea. We obviously can't 294 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: outlaw war outright, but what we can do is remove 295 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: the amnesty, remove that legal protection. You know, if you, 296 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: um hijack a foreign ship and pillage it, that is 297 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: no longer something that you are protected for. You will 298 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: be tried, uh and treated as a criminal. Mm hmmm, 299 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: because you shouldn't have killed people. That's I don't know, 300 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: the stuff that was such a hot take at the time. 301 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: You shouldn't kill people. Maybe let's work it out. This 302 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: is where we meet the guys behind the name of 303 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: the pact, the French Minister of Forid Affairs Aristide Briand, 304 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: and the American Secretary of State Frank Kellogg. Funny story. Initially, Kellogg, 305 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: when he got pitched this idea by Briand, he thought, 306 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: I don't think this is gonna happen. I mean, obviously, 307 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: he said, I I don't think the US is going 308 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: to go to war with France, so there's no point 309 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: in US promising not to, which is just side note here, 310 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: that's a really shady thing to say, Like why do 311 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: we need to come on, buddy? Uh? And he said, 312 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: he said, what I really think is happening here is 313 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: that this proposal has an ulterior motive. I believe that you, Briand, 314 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: are trying to make the US commit to intervening on 315 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: France's behalf in any case of an attack by Germany. 316 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: And then well, I mean that's true. And there was 317 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: some back and forth and the public pressure again, the 318 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: pro piece movements were huge in the US and France, 319 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: and eventually something happened. Kellogg thought, gave it a think, 320 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: and he comes back to Briande and he says, you 321 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: know what, man, that sounds great. Honestly, why why shouldn't 322 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: we renounce war? But it shouldn't just be between us, 323 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: He says, we should make the treaty multilateral. We should 324 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: have everybody's sign it, and then everyone would just stop 325 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: waging war. Yeah, and Kellogg really thought that he was 326 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: pulling a fast one on his his counterpart over there 327 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 1: um in in the land of France, because back to 328 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: that New York article, Um he knew that France had 329 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: a lot of mutual defense treaties with other European states 330 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: and it would be really, really difficult for them to 331 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: honor all of those treaties if France agreed that they 332 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: would renounce war altogether. So he thought that he was 333 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,479 Speaker 1: kind of putting one over on the guy. But because 334 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: of the way that the agreement was ultimately worded, there 335 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 1: was enough latitude in it that made it seem like 336 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: a smart political move for Brand and his um you know, 337 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: contemporaries to sign um And what we got was the 338 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: General Treaty for the Renunciation of War, known as the 339 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: Paris Peace Pack because that's where it was signed, or 340 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: the Kellogg briand Packed. And you know, everybody is still 341 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: trying to recover from World War One. The public in 342 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: general is kind of sick of war. Many people have 343 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: now seen the horrors of conflict firsthand, so there's public 344 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: support behind this. The participants, when they're creating this agreement 345 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: in Paris, they start baking in some exceptions from the 346 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: very job. From day one. First they said, okay, hashtag 347 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: not all wars. We're gonna ban wars of aggression, but 348 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: we cannot ban acts of self defense because this means, 349 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: you know, people have to be able to protect their 350 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: populace and their resources, their borders and so on. And 351 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: so the final version of the agreement had just two 352 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: clauses everybody agreed on. I think we can each do 353 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: one here. All signatory nations have outlawed war as an 354 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: instrument of national policy yep. And all secretary nations agreed 355 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: to settle their disputes only by peaceful means some warm Yeah. 356 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: I don't know that that'sting those get pretty violent. Yeah, yeah, 357 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: you gotta. It's about the leverage on the wrist. You know. 358 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: People are messed up about that game. You know. I 359 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: whenever I do a thumb war, I always turn my 360 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: hat backwards. Let people know that I mean business. These 361 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: sound great, eight, don't they in kind of a utopia 362 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: sky blue you know, silver lining playbooks kind of way. Uh, 363 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,719 Speaker 1: it really sounds nice. It also sounds a little a 364 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: little too optimistic if we're being nihilistic about Yeah, this 365 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: is one of those things where it's great and it's 366 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: it's great to say, and it feels good to tell 367 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: other people this, But what do you do when the 368 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: rubber hits the road? How do you enforce this? Fifteen 369 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 1: nations originally signed the agreement, uh, and there were a 370 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: lot of heavy hitters, and then eventually another forty seven 371 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: nations followed. This meant that by nineteen or so, the 372 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: majority of all the governments in the world had signed 373 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: up for this and said, yeah, we're over warm, which 374 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: makes sense from an optics standpoint. You know, it's to 375 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: to use a a political term. I mean, it was 376 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: politically smart. That's why all these other nations signed on, 377 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: because it kind of it presented this kind of like 378 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: codified optimism that the citizens of the world could get behind, because, 379 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: like you said, there was total uh, fear and paranoia 380 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: and war fatigue, and this is just the kind of 381 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: legislation that makes you think that the powers that we 382 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: really do have your best interest in mind. Yeah, it's 383 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: it's also to that point about optics. It's also very difficult. 384 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: Once a majority consensus is achieved, it's incredibly difficult to 385 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: be the one country that said, fuck you, guys, war 386 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: is awesome and I'm not going to sign up for that, 387 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Uh So, so people are 388 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: feeling this international pressure and we don't know whether or 389 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: not this is due to the Kellogg Brian's Pact, but 390 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: there was a relative period of peace about four years 391 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: after signing, and it first got tested the pact, that is, 392 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: in one when Japan invaded and occupied Manchuria. In something 393 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: called the Mukden Incident, which started September. There's a lieutenant 394 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: in the Quang Tung Army, part of the Imperial Japanese Army, 395 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: who detonates a little bit of dynamite on a railway 396 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: near Mukdun. The explosion doesn't even cause that much damage, 397 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: but it does give the Japanese Army the opportunity to 398 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: blame this on Chinese dissidents and justify a crackdown an invasion. 399 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: Japan had signed a pact the US and the League 400 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: of Nations. Still, they just didn't bother to take any 401 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: action to enforce it. Okay. So the time, the US 402 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: was absolutely being eaten alive by the Great Depression, so 403 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: they had, me know, a lot of stuff on their minds, 404 00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: their collective mind um. Other nations in the League also 405 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: had their own issues to deal with, um, So they 406 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: did not want to spend their money, uh to help 407 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: another country like China achieve independence. They're like, you know, 408 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 1: we support you and everything, you know, uh spiritually but morally, morally, 409 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: totally on the right side of history here, but yeah, 410 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: we don't have any scratch to spare you. Um. So 411 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: after Japan's kind of weird subterfuge war was sort of 412 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: you know illuminated in nineteen thirty two, that's when Japan 413 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: went into like full lockdown, uh international lockdown in terms 414 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: of isolating themselves from the rest of the world. That 415 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: ended with them pulling out of the League in nineteen 416 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: thirty three. Yeah, and this played a role in, uh, 417 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: the growing perception of people across the planet that the 418 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: League of Nations was a nice idea but was not 419 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: powerful enough to do the things that wanted to do, 420 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: which ultimately, you know, would lead to the Unite Nations, which, 421 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: as we know, a lot of these U n kind 422 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: of um what do you call them? Uh? Not declarations 423 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: resolutions right, Uh, they are not binding. It's sort of 424 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: like this, we agree conceptually to do this stuff, and 425 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about it and write it down. But 426 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: when you know, like you said earlier, the rubber hits 427 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: the road or push comes to shove or any other cliches, 428 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 1: there's nothing holding us to these. We're gonna do what 429 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: we gotta do. It's the same as like outlawing war. Yeah, 430 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: it sounds like it sounds like a really nice idea, 431 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: but or isn't just a tool. It's a thing that 432 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: happens between people when they get pushed to the extreme, 433 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: and there's really no way around it. You know, you 434 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 1: can't just remove the fight from the dog that is man. 435 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 1: So this reminds me of something called the broken window theory, 436 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: which you guys may have heard of. And the broken 437 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: window theory is a sociological concept that applies in micro 438 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: macro cosums. It's it's the idea that, um, there's a 439 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 1: sort of domino effect, like people in a dirty alley 440 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: will be more likely to litter than they would in 441 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: a clean place, and that people in this This is 442 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: where I'm going with this, Like, if one person is 443 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 1: breaking the agreement, the treaty, the pact, then it makes 444 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: it so much easier for other people or other countries 445 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: rather to subsequently violate the agreement because everybody else is 446 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: doing it, why can't we so? Or pretty much right 447 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: after the ninety one Japanese invasion of Manchuria, we see 448 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: Italy invade Ethiopia, the Spanish Civil War, Japan invades China, 449 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: Germany is after Poland, the Soviet Union invades Finland, Germany 450 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: invade war it yes, yes, just so. In the Sausage 451 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: War episode, do check that out. It is grizzly and 452 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: not as not as it's not the food fight. It 453 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: sounds like it is a food fight, not fun at all. Well, 454 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: it's a different like a food fight like and like 455 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: you know, a high school rom com. It's a fight 456 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: around food because people are starving and will slash throats 457 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: to get food. But check it out. Fun, fun, fun 458 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: little romp if you haven't already. And so, eventually, as 459 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: Germany invades multiple European nations in Japan attacks the United 460 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: States a new world war engulfs the planet World War two. 461 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: This results and yes, more than sixty million people dying 462 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: the deployment of atomic weaponry. Uh. Nobody was really talking 463 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: about the Kellogg Briand Pact. Nobody was like, hey, hey, though, 464 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: hey guys, we signed the thing. Everybody has a copy 465 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: at their house. I think that's what we've been both 466 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: saying this whole time. It's like, it's nice to comba 467 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: ah and drum circle around the campfire with our you know, 468 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: brethren of the world. But when it all comes down 469 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: to it, war is just kind of part of who 470 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: uh we are as human beings, and when threatened, you're 471 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: going to fight back despite whatever you've agreed to on paper, 472 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: especially when it's kind of toothless and there's really no 473 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: way to enforce it at all. Yeah, they didn't define 474 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: self defense. I think that's one of the biggest errors there. 475 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: So these countries were invading other countries and they were saying, whoa, whoa, 476 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: we're defending ourselves, sort of similar to the way you 477 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: can hear the current government of Russia saying that their 478 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: actions in Ukraine are defense measures due to the encroachment 479 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: of NATO. Uh. Yeah. Now this is not to say 480 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: that there weren't like positive things about this. We're we're 481 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: sort of ragging on it a little bit. There were 482 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: things that it defined that needed to be defined or 483 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: that sort of flipped the definition. You know, we were 484 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: talking about from the beginning, where the definition of war 485 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: was so like vague and easy to justify. And in 486 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: this if if if nothing else that was really really lasting. 487 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: There's a couple of the things that were lasting. But 488 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: I think the most important thing is it it kind 489 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: of held people to account where it's like, if you're 490 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: going to declare war and you are found to be 491 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: the aggressor and did so under false pretenses or under 492 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: like fully self serving pretenses, you can be tried as 493 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: a war criminal. You know. For I believe that it's 494 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: called crimes against peace. Isn't that right? Yeah, I believe 495 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: that's correct in international law, it's planning or waging a 496 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: war of aggression. Uh. Then there's also the related but 497 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: distinct crimes against humanity. Yeah. This is such a noble, 498 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: beautiful idea, and it's a shame that even even the 499 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: people who wrote the book examining this, Hathaway and Shapiro 500 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: say that the Kellogg Briand pack is today regarded often 501 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: as historically insignificant because it had no enforcement mechanism, no 502 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: binding consequences. It reads more of like, um, I mean, 503 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: this sounds brutal, but it reads kind of like a 504 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: promise to be good, like the way you would have to, 505 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: you know, make the boy Scout pledge or something. Uh. 506 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: There weren't any real consequences for not being brave, thrifty, 507 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: clean and reverence and so on. I can make to obey, 508 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: to obey the law of the pack. That's the part 509 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: that I remember. Um, I was just a cub scotch. 510 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: I think that's Richard Kipling. No, No, it's it's too 511 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: to do and to help other people and to I 512 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: to yeah, and to obey the law of the pack. Yeah, 513 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: you got me. That's the one who only got through 514 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: cub Scouts and went to like one boy scout meeting 515 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: and quit. I'm with you, buddy. He just then they 516 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: fast tracked you right to eagle, didn't it, because you 517 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: were just you were like year old. But here's the thing, 518 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,959 Speaker 1: you're right then. It was toothless. It was impossible to enforce. 519 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: It did read like a sort of like gg up 520 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: Golden Rule, but it actually is still around to this 521 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: day and is the heart or the core of what 522 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: we now know as the U N Charter. And it 523 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: does you know sometimes uh these you know, making a 524 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: stance if only conceptually matters. It is sort of like 525 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: this ideal that we set and that we can look to, 526 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: the idea of world peace. It's sort of a cliche, 527 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,959 Speaker 1: you know, because we know that's very, very difficult, one 528 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: of those things that you use your genie wish on. 529 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: But then also that could be one of those monkeys 530 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: past situations couldn't because world peace could mean that just 531 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: like literally it's impossible, so everyone just dies, right, yeah, 532 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: Or it could be a situation like you see in 533 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: Serenity the film. No spoilers, but check it out if 534 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: you haven't seen it. It's worth the ride. Yeah. So 535 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: there is something else you have to throw in here. 536 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: And you may have heard this said on other shows. 537 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: You may have read this another Works of Academia and 538 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: so on, but you will often hear people describe the 539 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,720 Speaker 1: current age as the most peaceful time in human history. 540 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,919 Speaker 1: There's a matter of debate over how true that may 541 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,439 Speaker 1: actually be, but the fact of the matter is, since 542 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: n nations have gone to war against other nations a 543 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: lot less often, and when they have, most of the 544 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: rest of the countries across the world have said, ah, 545 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: this is not legit and we need to sanction you 546 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: or punish you somehow. And it's it's strange because historians 547 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: are still kind of, i would say, sussing out exactly 548 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: what led to this drop in international war. I don't know, 549 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: I mean, is it is it sort of the fear 550 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: of mutually assured destruction? Is it sort of like playing 551 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: by international kind of rules. It's hard to say, but 552 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: we do know that not since the Russian seizure of 553 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: Crimea and to any fourteen, has there been uh an 554 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: example of a nation holding onto a territory that it 555 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: just kind of land grabbed or that it like sort 556 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: of went after just with imperialistic kind of goals and 557 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: not you know, as self defense. So something changed, Yeah, 558 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: I mean you will. Also, this is where you'll hear 559 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: phrases like packs Americana, like post World War two, US 560 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: becoming the global superpower and America is kind of the 561 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 1: world's police officer, and there, you know, keeping an American 562 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: perspective of peace just because no other country really had 563 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: the military or economic ability to challenge it for the 564 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: driver's seat. But the rest of the world started to 565 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: catch up, and more and more students of international affairs 566 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: were predicting, by the nineties seven users so that we 567 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: would see a surgeon armed conflicts across the world. And 568 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: when that didn't happen, people started saying, well, maybe it's 569 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 1: because nuclear weapons changed human civilization mutually should destruction Maybe 570 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: exactly that I was I was saying getting out as well. 571 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: And and just to backtrack ever so slightly, the Russian 572 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: seizure of Crimea was one of a very few, a 573 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: small handful of cases of of that sort of went 574 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: against this rule that we're talking about. Are this new normal? Um, 575 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: the idea that it's just not a smart move to 576 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: go after other nations uh and try to grab their land. Um, 577 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: it really does require a few more layers of like 578 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,280 Speaker 1: checking the boxes and making sure is this in fact 579 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: a legitimate conflict or are we just being greedy and 580 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: trying to take someone that we believe should be ours 581 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: because we want it. We want it, it's our precious right. 582 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: So that's uh, that's I always think of Gollum when 583 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: I think of putting in crimea, is it fair? Is 584 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: it funny to me? Yeah? Kind of? You know, it 585 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: was a little bit of a gallam esque figure and 586 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: a little more muscular, but he's got the he's got 587 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: the bald thing going for him. That's a little funny. 588 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: And so if we keep tracing the evolution of war 589 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: and peace here, we know that historically democracies seem pretty 590 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: hesitant to go to war with other democracies. There's also 591 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: a strong argument that international trade has made countries much 592 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: more interconnected, and it's made war less viable, less attractive. 593 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: Like why am i? Am I really gonna go bomb 594 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: the country where like the majority of factories that make 595 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: the majority of stuff I buy are located. That's kind 596 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,280 Speaker 1: of an own goal, isn't it. So people have stopped 597 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: doing that as much at least, well, here's the question. 598 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: At least they've stopped doing it so much for now, 599 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 1: because no one can reliably predict whether or when large 600 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 1: scale conflict of World War three will spark up again. 601 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: And you know, lest we look like we are three 602 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:07,760 Speaker 1: American residents or three US residents, uh, casting aspersions upon 603 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: our global neighbors, we have to admit the US is 604 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,919 Speaker 1: not immune to these things at all. You you will 605 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: see a lot of conflicts that the U S engages 606 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: in phrased as wars of defense of some sort. And 607 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: Max you had a really good point about just how 608 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: important language matters when talking about this, and how what 609 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: we've talked about today's episode has kind of shifted the 610 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: way the US UM has sort of like titled some 611 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: of these departments, right. Oh yeah, Like you know, if 612 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: you listen to like historical stuff about like civil war 613 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: and stuff like that, they're like the Secretary of War, 614 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: Secretary of War, and it's like, wait, wait, wait, we 615 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: don't have a Secretary War like nineteen forty seven. They're 616 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: just like, yeah, we don't go to wars anymore. We 617 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 1: have defense Secretary of Defense, you know, with one of 618 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: thost like powerful positions in the government. Yeah, it's like, 619 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,839 Speaker 1: oh no, don't know. Anytime we have to use like 620 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: our military, it is to defend Americans and freedom and stuff. 621 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: It's like a little scary when you think about that 622 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: was so I mean, whether you can trace it directly 623 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: back to the Paris Peace Pack or the Kellogg Briand Pact, 624 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 1: it definitely had an influence, especially because it it is 625 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: to this day kind of the foundation of the the 626 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 1: U n you know, charter so and again we know 627 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: the UN can be pretty toothless too, but it does 628 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,399 Speaker 1: sort of set a standard and aspirational standard of how 629 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: we would hope that we would, um you know, kind 630 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: of get along with other nations, uh, in the world, 631 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: at least the ones that are like member nations. And 632 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: it paves the way to for large international organizations stuff 633 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: like NATO, stuff like the UM Organization of American States 634 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 1: and so on. Like these are groups of countries that 635 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: have allied together with the goal being that they will 636 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 1: provide i'm in defense and this is something really important 637 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: to a lot of maybe smaller countries with smaller militaries, 638 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: and that kind of interconnectedness that Kellogg Briand proposed is 639 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,280 Speaker 1: with US today right now. And there's a great example 640 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: for mental flaws. Like as you are hearing this, if 641 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 1: you're in the US, there are sixty seven countries that 642 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 1: the US has promised to back up in a in 643 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: a fight. Basically, yeah, we don't need to list them all, 644 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: but there's certainly someones that I wouldn't have thought, uh 645 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 1: necessarily would be in play South Korea, Pakistan, Israel obviously, 646 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: but like Argentina, Barbados, the Bahamas, uh, Colombia, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Italy, Latvia. 647 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: I mean some of these makes sense and like kind 648 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: of track based on what we know about, like our 649 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: most obvious alliances. Um, but some of them are a 650 00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: little unusual. Yeah, I mean, I gotta point this one 651 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: out right here. If Iceland gets to the war, we're 652 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,760 Speaker 1: go fight with them. But Greenland, Greenland's on their own. 653 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: You know what you did. Greenland also are packed with 654 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: New Zealand technically ended in nineteen six. They know what 655 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,399 Speaker 1: they did. That's just gonna be my answer for all 656 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: of these. No, it also doesn't Netherlands still on Greenland. 657 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, Greenland is an autonomous country, but I think 658 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: it's part of the Kingdom of Denmark, which really sounds 659 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: like something they did from tax purposes, right, Like we're 660 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: a country, but we're also Denmark. It just depends on, 661 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, when the light bill is due, I imagine. 662 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: So this, this though, leads us to something really optimistic, 663 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: even if it's optimisticalistically realistic. Yeah, this leads us to 664 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: something beautiful, we can say, which is that even if 665 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: this is an overly ambitious idea, even if it's what 666 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 1: corporate America would call a big swing, it is a 667 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:09,880 Speaker 1: wonderful idea, a world without war. I don't know what 668 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: it would take for us human civilization to reach that 669 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: level of sophistication, but if I have to be completely 670 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: honest and transparent, I think it would need to be 671 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: an external threat. Like the biggest chance for global world 672 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: peace is either a lack of scarcity, a post scarcity economy, 673 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 1: or aliens are real. They're coming for us. Everybody put 674 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 1: your own beef on the back burner. We gotta we 675 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: gotta team up for this one. I don't know, what 676 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: do you guys think, can world peace happen without aliens? 677 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,840 Speaker 1: I'm going in. I'm going in Star Streks. I'd be 678 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 1: disappointed if you didn't. I mean, First Contact the movie, 679 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,319 Speaker 1: like when you know, the world obtaining world peace and 680 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,760 Speaker 1: became the paradise that it is in modern quote unquote 681 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: Star Trek is when they met the Falcons spoilers right here, guys, 682 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: after the first war flight, and you know they're like, 683 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 1: oh wow, We're not the only like creatures in here. 684 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: We have to all band together. Or we're gonna get 685 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,879 Speaker 1: wiped off the face of the earth. So I mean, 686 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 1: I think war is very much like a by product 687 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: you really kind of think about. There's a lot of 688 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: other things that have to get fixed first before we 689 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,239 Speaker 1: you know, stop trying to invade each other's land and 690 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: kill each other. Yeah, like you know, plagues, pandemics, Yeah exactly, Yeah, 691 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 1: absolutely nothing. But also you know population control. That's a 692 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 1: whole another conversation there. But this is very interesting and 693 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: very prescient for where we are now geo politically. And 694 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: while the sort of headline for this is that it's 695 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,320 Speaker 1: like this pack that nobody really remembers anymore. Um, I 696 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,839 Speaker 1: don't know if we mentioned this, but Kellogg did win 697 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: the Nobel Peace Prize for his part in this agreement. Um, 698 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 1: and I think it definitely set the tone in many ways. 699 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: Even if we don't remember this one, particularly, its legacy 700 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: lives on. Yeah. Absolutely and well said. And with that 701 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: we want to pass the torch to you, fellow ridiculous historians. 702 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,839 Speaker 1: Thank you, of course, as always fortuning in do you 703 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 1: think a world without war is possible in our time? 704 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear from you while you're molding that 705 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,720 Speaker 1: over big big shout out as always to our superproducer, 706 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 1: Mr Max Williams. Big shout out to our own sometimes allies, 707 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,359 Speaker 1: sometimes nemesses Jonathan Strickland a k the quister oh Man, 708 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 1: and shout out to Alex Williams. Speaking of passing Alex Williams, 709 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: we can post our theme and also is Max Williams brother. Uh, 710 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,279 Speaker 1: speaking of passing the torch, I was re gifted a 711 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:54,799 Speaker 1: Max Williams gift over the holidays from Alex Williams. You 712 00:44:54,880 --> 00:45:00,360 Speaker 1: got Mr Alex Williams a Suvie uh cooking machine and 713 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 1: uh Alex is not much of a chef, he says, 714 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: and he knows that I am. And he passed the 715 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 1: torch of the Suvie cooker onto me. So for that, Max, 716 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 1: I thank you because it's awesome. He actually had texted 717 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 1: me about that, and I gave that to him so 718 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 1: long ago. I forgot what a Suvie was. I had 719 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: to look it up. Well, anyone that's interested in precision cooking, 720 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,919 Speaker 1: look up Susie. It's a wonderful way of it's. Yeah, 721 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 1: you gotta do the reverse here, you suvie the thing 722 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,200 Speaker 1: in a hot water bath. This device that used to 723 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,839 Speaker 1: be like thousands of dollars when the technology first kind 724 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,800 Speaker 1: of was around. It keeps a container of water exactly 725 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: the right temperature, and you seal your steak or protein 726 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 1: or vegetables in a bag and then it cooks for 727 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:43,440 Speaker 1: like a couple of hours and it gets it to 728 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,440 Speaker 1: the exact right temperature. Um, why would I want meat 729 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: that was cooked in water, you asked, Well, afterwards, it's 730 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,239 Speaker 1: cooked perfectly inside and then you see it on the 731 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,279 Speaker 1: outside and it is the best um cook you will 732 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 1: ever enjoy in your or you have a sloppy steak, 733 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,799 Speaker 1: but uh, Tim Robinson aside. Also, big big shout out 734 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,200 Speaker 1: to Eve's Jeff Cope, big big shout out to Christopher Hasiotis, 735 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 1: and big shout out to every world leader who managed 736 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 1: to pursue diplomacy instead of bloody conflict. We know you're 737 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: all listening. We'll see you next time. Books. For more 738 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,279 Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 739 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,440 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.