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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking news, Savannah Guthrie's mother

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Speaker 1: missing day for what do we know? Tonight, good evening.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: I want to thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Lots happening, lots of moving parts of the search for

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Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie joining me in All Star panel. Straight out

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Speaker 1: to Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter, one hundred detectives

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Speaker 1: from the Sheriff's office and the FBI. Now we are

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Speaker 1: learning a ransom note, possibly the very same ransom note

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Speaker 1: sent to not two, but three news outlets, that being

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Speaker 1: our friends at TMZ, Harvey Levin, KO l D and

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Speaker 1: k g U n okay. Also at this hour, the

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Speaker 1: share of coming out and stating there is no suspect,

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Speaker 1: there is no POI person of interest. But wouldn't you

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Speaker 1: agree everybody that they always say there is no POI though,

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Speaker 1: isn't no suspect because once you say X is a suspect,

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Speaker 1: then X is shrouded in constitutional protections.

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Speaker 2: That said, I choose to believe the sheriff.

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Speaker 1: Dave mac joining me, Dave, what is the latest as

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Speaker 1: we go to air right now, right.

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Speaker 3: Now, Nancy, we have been told that those the ransom

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Speaker 3: notes going to three different locations. We're not being told

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Speaker 3: whether or not they are the same note or if

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Speaker 3: it was three different ones, but the content of the note,

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Speaker 3: one of them anyway, specifically talks about places inside the

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Speaker 3: home of Nancy Guthrie and talks about specific pieces of

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Speaker 3: evidence at the crime scene that would only be known

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Speaker 3: by somebody that was in there at that home. We

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Speaker 3: also know, as you mentioned, one hundred detectives are working

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Speaker 3: on this case right now, plus the FBI, and President

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump has promised even more support to get to Tucson, Arizona,

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Speaker 3: to try to find Nancy Guthrie.

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Speaker 2: You know, I want to look at that note one

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Speaker 2: more time.

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Speaker 1: I'm about to bring in Jessica Finn, senior investigative reporter

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Speaker 1: with the US Sun to doctor Bethany Marshall joining me.

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Speaker 1: Let me see Bethany. Bethany renounces like Coalyside, the LA

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Speaker 1: jurisdiction author of deal Breaker. You can see her now

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Speaker 1: on Peacock and you can find her at doctor Bethany

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Speaker 1: Marshall dot com.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany, how'd that strike you or else? Or else?

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Speaker 2: That sounds like a fifth grade girl's novel.

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Speaker 1: Do it or else?

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Speaker 2: Or else?

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Speaker 4: What?

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Speaker 5: Well, it's very coercive, it's very menacing and threatening. But

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Speaker 5: if this was a real ransom note Nancy, wouldn't this

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Speaker 5: have been submitted or sent to the family privately? Wouldn't

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Speaker 5: it have been sent earlier, like right after the mother

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Speaker 5: is missing, when the family is completely frantic. The fact

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Speaker 5: that it is sent to TMC and another news agency.

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Speaker 5: He has copycat written all over it to me.

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Speaker 2: Something about it?

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Speaker 1: Brian Fitzgibbons is joining me, Director Operations USPA Nationwide Security.

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Speaker 2: What is that?

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Speaker 1: He leads a team of investigative experts. They go all

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Speaker 1: around the world looking for missing people. By the way,

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Speaker 1: former marine and Iraq war veteran, Brian, there's something puero,

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Speaker 1: something juvenile about or else?

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Speaker 2: Who writes that do it or else? That phraseology is

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Speaker 2: bugging me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And there was something notably missing from this alleged

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Speaker 4: ransom note, and that is a proof of life. Right

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Speaker 4: for this ransom note to hold any weight, the author

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Speaker 4: of the note would have to provide some kind of

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Speaker 4: proof of life that that they did have Nancy Guthrie

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Speaker 4: in custody and that she was alive and well. For

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Speaker 4: that note, to have any value.

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Speaker 1: Well, here's another thing, and Jessica sand let me go

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Speaker 1: to Jessica very quickly saying, your investigator, reporter, the us son, Jessica,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us tonight. Jessica, what do

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Speaker 1: you make of the so called ransom note being sent

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Speaker 1: to three outlets and claiming knowledge of what Nancy Guthrie

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Speaker 1: was wearing that at the time she was kidnapped and

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Speaker 1: describing the interior of her home as it was left

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Speaker 1: at the time of the abduction.

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Speaker 6: You know, the Sheriff's Department has been so close to

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Speaker 6: the best as to what information they're giving out to

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Speaker 6: the media, and it's been really interesting to watch. They're

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Speaker 6: doing a great job at talking to us but not

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Speaker 6: saying a lot. And I think that really this random

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Speaker 6: note thing, we don't know if they've previously had a

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Speaker 6: random note that they've discovered that was sent directly to

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Speaker 6: the family, and that who knows. Maybe these people who

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Speaker 6: have abducted her are getting frustrated by the Sheriff's Department

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Speaker 6: not acknowledging them publicly. I mean, that could be a

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Speaker 6: thing that's happening right now. The other thing is and yes,

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Speaker 6: there we have not heard that there's been proof of life. However,

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Speaker 6: the sheriff did say today during an interview with NBC

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Speaker 6: that he believes Nancy is alive, and so as to

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Speaker 6: why he is suddenly saying he believes Nancy is alive

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Speaker 6: after these ransom notesment to news stations around the country yesterday,

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Speaker 6: doesn't there's something there? There might be a there there

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Speaker 6: that maybe we just don't know because the sheriff again

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Speaker 6: is holding these cards so close to the vest despite

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Speaker 6: being accessible to the media.

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Speaker 1: I want to bring in Jeffrey Gentry joining US forensic

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Speaker 1: certified blood stained pattern Analyst, Senior crime scene analyst and

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Speaker 1: death investigator, Former toxicology analyst, author of forensic science applications

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Speaker 1: to death and crime scene investigations, author of blood stained

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Speaker 1: pattern Analysis, author of death investigation information to obtain during

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Speaker 1: a forensic death investigation. On TikTok At Jeffrey Gentry b

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Speaker 1: p A blood pattern Analyst Facebook. Jeff Gentry, Bloodstained Pattern Analyst, Jeff,

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Speaker 1: thank you for.

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Speaker 2: Being with us. Jeff.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I'm just a trial lawyer. But when I

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Speaker 1: looked at the blood, let's see the blood that is

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Speaker 1: outside of Nancy Guthrie's home.

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Speaker 2: It looked to.

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Speaker 1: Me like low velocity droplets free falling, which to me,

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Speaker 1: to me, it looks like maybe from a nosebleed. It

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Speaker 1: does not look like high velocity spatter. It does not

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Speaker 1: look like high velocity spray that you would see from

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Speaker 1: a gunshot wound. It does not look like you don't

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Speaker 1: we haven't heard anything about throwback on the ceiling or

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Speaker 1: the walls from a bludgeoning.

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Speaker 2: And jeff when they first told.

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Speaker 1: Me that her DNA, Nancy's DNA was found in the home,

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, of course her DNA's in the home,

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Speaker 1: she lives there. But how does that tell you the

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Speaker 1: sheriff that she was a deducted air go either a

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Speaker 1: copious amount of blood which means she's severely injured or

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Speaker 1: dead like we saw on the Jennifer Doulos, Connecticut mom

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Speaker 1: of five case. There's so much one in the garage.

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Speaker 1: They knew she was dead. The location such as on

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Speaker 1: the ceiling right, which would indicate a bludgeoning, and then

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Speaker 1: a throwback or spray or the high velocity. I say,

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Speaker 1: if there had been a gunshot wound.

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Speaker 2: Looking at the blood pattern.

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Speaker 1: That we see, Jeffrey Gentry, that gives me hope that

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Speaker 1: she is alive, because you don't have the other things

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Speaker 1: that I mentioned, Jeffrey.

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Speaker 7: So when I look at this blood, I of course,

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Speaker 7: any blood at a crime scene is always concerning. I mean,

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Speaker 7: you should take take all precautions if you find blood

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Speaker 7: at a crime scene. It is a tremendous amount of

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Speaker 7: evidence that's in the blood. Not only can I tell

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Speaker 7: you events that happen, but then of course you have

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Speaker 7: the possibility to get DNA. But when I look at

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Speaker 7: these blood patterns, I'm not overly concerned. So you're exactly right.

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Speaker 7: These are passive blood drops. They are drip stains, a

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Speaker 7: little bit of a drip trail, and then there's a

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Speaker 7: blood into blood pattern. A blood into blood pattern is

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Speaker 7: when blood is dripping from height into a blood source

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Speaker 7: and it creates that neat little pattern of drip stains

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Speaker 7: with the little satellite spatter around it. So this would

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Speaker 7: indicate one that this is not a major injury. Somebody

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Speaker 7: of that age can get skin tears very easily in

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Speaker 7: their arms on their hands, and those are going to

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Speaker 7: bleed quite a bit. But it also indicates that this

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Speaker 7: person is upright. They are stationary for some period of time,

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Speaker 7: but then there's also movement as well with the drip trail.

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Speaker 7: So nothing that I'm seeing would indicate that one this

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Speaker 7: person has a traumatic injury like a gunshot wound or

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Speaker 7: a stab wound. Like projected blood patterns you mentioned cast

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Speaker 7: off from a weapon. You don't see impact spatter. These

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Speaker 7: are all large volume stains that are going straight down,

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Speaker 7: indicating that that person was either walking or stationary. But

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Speaker 7: they're Upbrad. The other thing that I look for is

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Speaker 7: why isn't there blood on the door knob?

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Speaker 2: Hold on? Hold on?

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Speaker 1: You got me drinking out of the fire hydrant.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I like for you to just go, but I've

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Speaker 1: got to dissect what you said. I hope I didn't

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Speaker 1: interrupt your train of thought and you know that you

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Speaker 1: were going to say. And second, but could you again

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Speaker 1: slow down and state what you just said, because I

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Speaker 1: find it extremely compelling. And yes, of course blood at

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Speaker 1: a crime scene is always.

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Speaker 2: Bad, it's not good.

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Speaker 1: But given that, would you start again with the passive

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Speaker 1: blood spots the drip stains?

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Speaker 7: Absolutely, So what we're looking at, I'm looking at the

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Speaker 7: photograph right now, there is a drip trail, So those

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Speaker 7: are individual circular bloodstains. It obviously fell from height, So

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Speaker 7: this person is upright. There's nothing at all to indicate

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Speaker 7: that they were dragged. There's nothing that's all to indicate

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Speaker 7: that they were on the ground and bleeding. You don't

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Speaker 7: see any blood pools, so that gives me hope that

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Speaker 7: this person is alive. The drip stains and the blood

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Speaker 7: and the blood patterns. That's one of the most common

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Speaker 7: patterns you see at any scene, just because usually somebody's upright,

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Speaker 7: they realize that they're bleeding and they're walking around, either

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Speaker 7: trying to get help or going from one point to another.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on, look at the spot right there, Jeffrey.

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Speaker 1: I'm following up on what you said. You could almost

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Speaker 1: see what would be her footsteps based on what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: One by the door, Matt on square two. See it

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Speaker 1: starts on square two, square one, starting at the door

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Speaker 1: step step step step. I mean, I'm reading into it,

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Speaker 1: but that's all we can do right now.

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Speaker 7: That's exactly what you would expect if somebody has, say

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Speaker 7: a minor injury, and they're kind of standing in the

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Speaker 7: same spot, kind of moving around. But then a lot

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Speaker 7: of times people are stepping in their own blood, or

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Speaker 7: the suspect is stepping in their blood. So I hope

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Speaker 7: the investigators are picking up on that and looking for

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Speaker 7: footwear impressions or what were the suspects possibly wearing. The

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Speaker 7: good thing about her possibly bleeding too is the fact

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Speaker 7: that her blood is not going to only be at

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Speaker 7: this scene, but whatever vehicle she was taken in, the

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Speaker 7: blood's going to be in that vehicle as well. Because

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Speaker 7: a blood pattern like this, considering that she might be

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Speaker 7: taking antiic coagulant medications, it's not going to stop bleeding

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Speaker 7: right away. It's going to continue to bleed, and so

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Speaker 7: that gives you the possibility of a forensic link from

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Speaker 7: the crime scene to the suspect vehicle. But again, I

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Speaker 7: don't see anything here that stands out is overly concerning

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Speaker 7: regarding debt. There's no blood patterns that would suggest a

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Speaker 7: major violent event happened and that this person is obviously deceased.

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Speaker 7: I don't see that at all.

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Speaker 1: Everything you just said is music to my ears. Jeffrey

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Speaker 1: Gentry breaking it down in an amazing way. Look, she's

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Speaker 1: eighty four, she's on med, she's got a heart problem,

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Speaker 1: she's got a pastmaker, she's bleeding.

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Speaker 2: It's not good.

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Speaker 1: I know it's not good, but I'm looking for anything.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking for anything because I care about Savannah. I

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Speaker 1: want there to be a good outcome. But we have

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Speaker 1: to look at the facts as we know them. Minor

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Speaker 1: injury walking upright, No blood pools, she's not on the ground, okay,

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Speaker 1: Nothing to indicate a traumatic injury such as a gunshot wound,

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Speaker 1: no cast off, Okay, what more? And I'd like to

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Speaker 1: see the blood again. You were about to say, and second?

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Speaker 1: What was second?

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Speaker 2: Was it the vehicle or is there something else?

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Speaker 7: Well, one of the other one of the other things

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Speaker 7: that I look for is not only where did bleeding

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Speaker 7: begin and where did it end?

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Speaker 3: Where did the.

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Speaker 7: Person start out? Where did they travel to? But I

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Speaker 7: don't see any blood on the doorframe. I don't see

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Speaker 7: any blood on the doorknob. It's a black surface on

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Speaker 7: the screen door. But I don't see anything that would

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Speaker 7: suggests that she was bleeding and trying to get back

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Speaker 7: inside of her house. So you got to wonder where

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Speaker 7: did this begin and where did it end? Like I've mentioned,

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Speaker 7: there's no major blood pools, there's no transfer patterns on

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Speaker 7: the ground, so we don't think that she was dragged

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Speaker 7: away from her home. We don't think that she crawled

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Speaker 7: away from her home. There's only a couple possibilities. Either

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Speaker 7: she walked away on her own and didn't have any

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Speaker 7: major injuries, or she was carried away from her home.

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Speaker 7: But then you got a wonder too, where did this

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Speaker 7: blood trail end? Was there any blood in the driveway?

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Speaker 7: How far did they expend? So I've got I mean, unfortunately,

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Speaker 7: it does give you a lot of answers, But then

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Speaker 7: I've got a lot of questions too, So I would

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Speaker 7: love to be out there looking around at this scene.

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Speaker 2: Hold on, before you start with those questions.

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Speaker 1: Can I see the closing of the door again, because

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Speaker 1: we were told Dave Matt that there was sign it

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Speaker 1: to a forced entry. Kash, I wish we could see

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Speaker 1: me in on that forced entry, but that the door

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Speaker 1: was unlocked, that tells me maybe they came fourth. Wait,

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Speaker 1: am I seeing forced entry right there on the right. No,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I am. They look at all

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Speaker 1: those locks, there's a heavy duty it looks like iron

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Speaker 1: screen door with double locks on it. Maybe the forced

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Speaker 1: entry was at another entrance or window and then they.

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Speaker 2: Walked out this way.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty bold to walk out of the front door.

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Speaker 1: Am I seeing the front door, Dave mac I think

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Speaker 1: I am is at the front door to her home.

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Speaker 3: It is. And the thing is, Nancy, You've got to

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Speaker 3: realize that we've been told that missus Guthrie cannot walk

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Speaker 3: fifty yards without assistance, so she's not mobile, which means

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Speaker 3: whoever is taking her out of the house would have

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Speaker 3: to be helping her. So they wouldn't be able to

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Speaker 3: go crawling out a window out the way they came in.

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Speaker 3: They would pretty much be left with if they're taking

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Speaker 3: her out to go out the biggest pathway, which is

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Speaker 3: going to be the front door. And as you mentioned

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Speaker 3: those blood patterns, if she's got a bloody knows or

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Speaker 3: something along those lines. As they're taking her out, they're

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Speaker 3: leading her or I say they because you're kind of

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Speaker 3: talking to people having to help carry her out and

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Speaker 3: lead her down the clearest path possible. So that pretty

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Speaker 3: much makes that a real possibility.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, with my mom, unless she's using her walker, it

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Speaker 1: is really hard for me to I can do it,

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Speaker 1: but it's really hard to get her up and walk

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Speaker 1: her by myself. And as Jeffrey Gentry is saying, we

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Speaker 1: don't see any indication of the blood that she fell

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Speaker 1: at any point was being dragged along. A lot happening, guys,

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Speaker 1: And I know we keep going back to the one

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Speaker 1: photo over and over, but that is the way you

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Speaker 1: prove a case. You take one piece of evidence, it

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Speaker 1: could be this writing pin right here, and you think

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Speaker 1: and you think and you examine until you squeeze every

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Speaker 1: bit of information out of that one thing that you can.

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Speaker 1: And did you hear, Jeffrey Gentry analyze this blood in

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Speaker 1: a way that I have not heard that? Keep thinking, Jeffrey,

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Speaker 1: keep thinking and percolating to Brian Fitzgibbons, I want to

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Speaker 1: talk to you about practicalities, practicalities if this is a ransom.

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Speaker 2: Oh, and that reminds me.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to circle back Jessica and Dave about do

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Speaker 1: we believe this bitcoin account is real? Because I've heard

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Speaker 1: that it has been authenticated, doesn't mean the ransom note's real.

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Speaker 1: They like, somebody could get my checking number. They can

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Speaker 1: figure it out right or come up with a number,

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean I'm part of a ransom or

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Speaker 1: a kidnap. So that could be a legitimate, authenticated bitcoin

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Speaker 1: number account number and still not be connected to the Guthries.

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Speaker 1: But to you, Wyan fitz Gibbons, you've done this one

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Speaker 1: hundred times. So you ransom someone, don't you believe at

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Speaker 1: some juncture you're gonna have to show proof of life?

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Speaker 1: I mean, why killer, don't you think at some point

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Speaker 1: they're gonna have to if they want.

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Speaker 2: That money, they're gonna have show proof of life.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely necessary, right, because that's the key to this whole thing.

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Speaker 4: If this is a kidnapped for ransom case, they will

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Speaker 4: want to make it very clear to the Guthrie family

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Speaker 4: that Nancy is alive and well prior to them sending

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Speaker 4: any type of ransom money, they would obviously demand that.

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Speaker 4: So you know that being absent from this ransom note

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Speaker 4: really stuck out to me because you know, you're not

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Speaker 4: going to risk communicating too many times without providing it

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Speaker 4: and potentially exposing your identity.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of sending it to three different

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Speaker 1: outlets k O L D T m Z and k

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Speaker 1: gun kg U N What do you make of three

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Speaker 1: different outlets?

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Speaker 8: Fitzgibbons knee jerk reaction to this Nancy is that this

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Speaker 8: is either a hoaxter who's trying to make a quick

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Speaker 8: dollar off of this horrible scenario, or second, if it

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Speaker 8: is actually tied to the case that there's some kind

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Speaker 8: of distraction taking place that they're looking up looking to

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Speaker 8: tie up resources of Larenforce.

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Gentry, let me get you to weigh in on

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Speaker 1: thought that was actually you brought it up as well.

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Speaker 1: The blood, the blood conceivably in the car, if she

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Speaker 1: is bleeding from the nose, how could they possibly erase

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Speaker 1: eradicate the blood from inside the vehicle. And yes, there

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Speaker 1: had to be a vehicle. And whoever did this is

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Speaker 1: brazen because they took her out the front door, right

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Speaker 1: there in her own neighborhood. So tell me about the

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Speaker 1: possibility of blood being in the car, Jeffrey Gentry.

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Speaker 7: So, if this is in fact her blood, and I

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Speaker 7: haven't seen anything in the news that would say that

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Speaker 7: they did DNA testing already and proved that this was

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Speaker 7: her blood outside of the house, there's always I mean,

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Speaker 7: I guess the possibility that it's a stage crime scene too.

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Speaker 7: Whenever I teach classes, I use my own blood and

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Speaker 7: I'll make a pattern exactly like that to demonstrate an

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Speaker 7: event where somebody's standing upright and bleeding, so there's always

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Speaker 7: that possibility. So hopefully they've already done the DNA testing

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Speaker 7: and confirmed that that is in fact her blood. But

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Speaker 7: if she's actively bleeding either from the nose, and my

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Speaker 7: thought is just with her being a little bit older

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Speaker 7: rather fragile, that she might have skin tears on her arms,

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Speaker 7: I would suspect that when they do find her that

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Speaker 7: she's going to have some kind of skin tears on

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Speaker 7: her arms that created these blood patterns arms because elderly

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Speaker 7: people their skin is thin. But if she's actively bleeding,

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Speaker 7: she is going to keep bleeding. It's not going to stop.

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Speaker 7: And so she's going to bleed inside of the suspect vehicle,

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Speaker 7: either on door handles or inside on the seats, and

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Speaker 7: that's not really easy to get rid of. I'm not

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Speaker 7: going to tell everybody exactly how to get rid of blood,

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Speaker 7: but I could definitely give you some ideas. But there

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Speaker 7: should be some evidence of clean up if they did

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Speaker 7: try to get rid of it, either bleach or other chemicals.

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Speaker 7: And nine out of ten times, if people suspects are

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Speaker 7: willing to leave behind blood at a crime scene, they're

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Speaker 7: not going to do a very good job cleaning up

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Speaker 7: a car. So that leaves me hope that there is

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Speaker 7: going to be that forensic link between her residence and

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Speaker 7: the suspect vehicle.

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Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Gray. Back to Jessica Finn joining

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Speaker 1: a senior investigative reporter us Son, what have you learned

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Speaker 1: about the time line? At first we were told to

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Speaker 1: forty five am. Now we're thinking more about two am.

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Speaker 1: A neighbor states that he went by the home at

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Speaker 1: six forty five am and nothing was happening, suggesting that

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Speaker 1: she was still there. I think it says just the

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Speaker 1: opposite that it was all over. She had already been

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Speaker 1: taken by six forty five am. What are we learning,

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Speaker 1: if anything, from the neighbors.

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Speaker 6: Well, so one of the neighbors, a couple of the neighbors.

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Speaker 6: Now I've seen we have our own reporter on the

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Speaker 6: ground in Arizona at the US Sun, and then I've

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Speaker 6: seen other reports of other neighbors who have actually reported

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Speaker 6: that there was suspicious activity on their own property within

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Speaker 6: like several blocks of Nancy's home, that people that there

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Speaker 6: was an individual that had been snooping around and looked suspicious.

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Speaker 6: The neighbor, one of the neighbors that we spoke to

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Speaker 6: had actually called the cops about this incident back when

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Speaker 6: it happened two months ago. There was another incident in

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Speaker 6: the last couple of weeks with another neighbor that was

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Speaker 6: about ten minutes away from Nancy, who reported a similar incident,

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Speaker 6: and so the and then we have the neighbor that's

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Speaker 6: directly across the street who said, when I had emerged

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Speaker 6: from my home at six forty five am on Sunday morning,

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Speaker 6: I didn't see anything. So you know, again there her

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Speaker 6: car was left behind, her wallet, her keys, her phone.

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Speaker 6: You wouldn't notice if Nancy was there or not at

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Speaker 6: six forty five in the morning, if she had already

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Speaker 6: been taken, because everything was still left as is besides

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Speaker 6: Nancy herself. You know, from what we know, she was

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Speaker 6: dropped off at nine forty five pm on Saturday night.

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Speaker 6: And that drop off what came after she had dinner

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Speaker 6: at Savannah's sister Anne, Annie's house and Annie's husband, Tomaso.

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Speaker 6: They had dinner together and then Tomaso drove drove Nancy

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Speaker 6: Gotrie back to her home and he watched her go

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Speaker 6: in the door. But of course, by the next day

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Speaker 6: she was supposed to show up at church and around eleven,

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Speaker 6: an I am of one of her fellow parishioners called

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Speaker 6: the cops to called the family first to let the

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Speaker 6: family know she wasn't there, and then the family went

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Speaker 6: to go check on the house. Of course the cops

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Speaker 6: were called. That's kind of the general timeline that we're

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Speaker 6: working with.

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Speaker 1: I noticed that you just said that the son in

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Speaker 1: law dropped her off, not the daughter, and that he

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Speaker 1: waited for her to get into the home before he left.

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Speaker 5: Correct, Yeah, it is, it is.

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Speaker 6: It's become confirmed that he was the last guy to see.

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Speaker 1: Her, okay, and they all had dinner together before that.

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Speaker 2: Is that right?

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Speaker 5: That is correct?

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Speaker 1: Okay. At this hour, we are learning that multiple experts

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Speaker 1: are pushing a multiple abductor theory.

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Speaker 2: Jessica, Why, Well.

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Speaker 6: For a number of reasons. She's not mobile, like we've

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Speaker 6: said earlier in the broadcast, she can't get around on

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Speaker 6: her own, so it would take some effort to actually

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Speaker 6: physically get her out of the house, and none the

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Speaker 6: sense that it would take two people to carry her.

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Speaker 6: But you need like somebody to escort her out, You

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Speaker 6: need the waiting car, you need to get her in

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Speaker 6: the car fairly quickly. And so there's the idea that

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Speaker 6: you know, really this is at least a two man job.

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Speaker 6: There's also been some theories that there possibly was like

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Speaker 6: a junior an abductor or kidnapper involved, who may have

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Speaker 6: been scoping out the property in the days and weeks

438
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 6: before this actually all went down. But it does seem

439
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 6: that at least the very night of likely requires a

440
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 6: couple of people to get her out of the house

441
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 6: and quietly gag her if needed, and get her into

442
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 6: the car and then swiftly drive away.

443
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: Dave mac joining us some crime stories, Dave, what can

444
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 1: you tell me? Can you expound upon the sightings of

445
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 1: a quote suspicious person?

446
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 3: Actually, Nancy, Yeah, they're actually more than one. Okay, A

447
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:55,199
Speaker 3: suspicious man was actually seen lurking in someone's yard a

448
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 3: couple of weeks ago, and it was he wasn't just

449
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 3: like a phantom. It was enough that he actually set

450
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 3: off a motion detecting light that awoke the homeowner. This

451
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 3: was about ten minutes away from Nancy Guthrie's home. You know,

452
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 3: as we've mentioned, it is a neighborhood, but the homes

453
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 3: are not right pressed up against one another. There is

454
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 3: a little distance between them. This is an elderly man,

455
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 3: and he says he caught the guy in his yard

456
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 3: after the motion sensor went off and the flood light

457
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 3: switches on. The light spooked the guy and the fellow

458
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 3: left away. But that's not the only one, Nancy. That

459
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 3: was several weeks ago. But now we find out that

460
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 3: there was a suspicious, tall, strange man reportedly lurking in

461
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 3: a yard near Nancy Guthrie's residence about thirty minutes before

462
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 3: police arrived. Thirty minutes before police arrived, a strange man

463
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 3: in the neighborhood. All I could think of was cobt

464
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,959
Speaker 3: or going back the next morning. So we've got at

465
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 3: least two different individuals.

466
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: Degree I disagree, and I'll tell you why, because somebody

467
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: had to be with Nancy Guthrie. Sure, unless there's more

468
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: than one person involved, I don't think that that well,

469
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 1: But you.

470
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 2: Know what, you're right, Coburger did go back. Coburger did

471
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 2: go back.

472
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 3: I think you're talking about having more than one person

473
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 3: getting around. And again, this goes back to her lack

474
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 3: of mobility, her size, medium build, and eighty four years old.

475
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 3: She's not going to be moving fast. You're going to

476
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 3: have to have help to come out of that house

477
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 3: and you talk about your taking care with your mother

478
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 3: to get her moved around, and these are people that

479
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,959
Speaker 3: don't care, and it's not going to be easy. So

480
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 3: I'm thinking there had to be at least two, so

481
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 3: there might be somebody sitting with her wherever they are,

482
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 3: while the other one's back there watching what's happening.

483
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us or renown psycho analyst doctor Bethete.

484
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: It's my experience when you bring somebody else in on

485
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: your crime, at some point, somebody's going to talk, or

486
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: the wife of the purp knows about it, or the girlfriend,

487
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 1: or just starting to get too big and too many

488
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: people know about it.

489
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: What do you think?

490
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 5: That's what I've been thinking. I share your thoughts about that.

491
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 5: I was thinking, who was sitting at home watching their

492
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 5: TV or reading the news online and thinking, hmmm, my

493
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 5: husband left at midnight. I wonder where he went. There's

494
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 5: somebody out there who knows something. Nancy, in terms of

495
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 5: these blood drops, you know she had a pacemaker, which

496
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 5: tells me she was also on blood the thinners, right,

497
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 5: because you typically prescribe that to people whobout pacemakers, and

498
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 5: that the life saving medication may in fact be her

499
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 5: blood thinner, right, so that without that there's a chance

500
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 5: of her heart throwing off plot or having a stroke

501
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 5: or something like that. Another question is, if the blood

502
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,479
Speaker 5: drops and right there on the doorstep, how did they

503
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 5: get her all the way out to wherever the car was?

504
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 5: Did they have a wheelchair waiting for her, which in

505
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 5: which case they know a lot about her and her

506
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 5: health issues. Okay, so that's very important to me. And

507
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 5: was there blood in her bed? I mean, people who

508
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 5: are in blood dinners often they just bleed during the

509
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 5: night without even realizing it. And then also if the

510
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 5: blood stopped on the door step, did somebody have a

511
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 5: cloth or a bandage or something waiting for her to

512
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 5: stop the blood drops? And just one of their quick

513
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 5: thought Nancy, you know, I'm sure NBC is combing through

514
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 5: all of Savannah Guthrie's emails. Did she did she cover

515
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 5: a story that made somebody angry or pissed off or threatened?

516
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 5: Was there somebody stalking her or threatening sending threatening emails?

517
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 5: I mean you said the vengeful nature of the random

518
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 5: of the ransom note or else? Is that reflected in

519
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 5: language of emails that have been sent her because she

520
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 5: is a well known figure and they have a lot

521
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 5: of security at NBC. And that's an angle that I

522
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 5: think nobody's talking about. It would be really interesting to

523
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 5: know more.

524
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: Okay, at the risk of poopooing doctor Beth Andy Marshall

525
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: focused on doctor I'm certainly not a renounced psycho analyst,

526
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: but that sounds like a fifth grade girl's mystery novel

527
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: that Savannah covered a story and somebody read the story

528
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: or heard the story and got so mad that they went, oh,

529
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to track down her mom on the other

530
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: side of the country and kidnap her and ask for money.

531
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 5: Hey, Nancy, I've had hate and threatening emails after being

532
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 5: on yours show.

533
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 2: You know, thank you.

534
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 5: People read all kinds of meanings into what they hear

535
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 5: public figures say. But also could it have incited somebody

536
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 5: into thinking about how to get back at Savannah or

537
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 5: put her front and center of some disgruntled person's life.

538
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 5: I think that's something that should be explored.

539
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: You know, I can't poopoo anything because who would have

540
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: thought that a PhD criminology student teacher would target four

541
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,239
Speaker 1: random people he's never met and murder them in the

542
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: middle of the night. No sex attack, no robbery. It's

543
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: almost unheard of. So I really don't have a leg

544
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: to stand on to poo poo anything at this Junctor

545
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: speaking of trolls, Jessica Finn joining us us Son, what

546
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: about it. I've heard that there are evil trolls attacking

547
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: Savannah at a time like this.

548
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, incredibly, I guess not incredibly. It is the world

549
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 6: that we live in, right. There have been several notes

550
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 6: since to Savannah through NBC basically, you know, claiming that

551
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 6: they did this, and all sorts of horrible allegations and

552
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 6: threats to her. It's really kind of thrown her name

553
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 6: aggressively into the national lexicon in a way that has

554
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 6: not been you know, in a way that her name

555
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 6: has not been out there before. And unfortunately, when you're

556
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 6: a victim of a crime, as you know, Nancy, you've

557
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 6: become victimized even further often as a case like this unwinds.

558
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 6: One of the stories that I did earlier this week

559
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 6: at the Sun, actually to Bethany's point, is how NBC

560
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 6: has stepped up security in and around thirty Rock as

561
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 6: a result of this case. That people on air that

562
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 6: the on Air talent are very spooked over this whole situation.

563
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 6: They're all very concerned for their own families and their

564
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 6: own lives, and NBC has stepped up security around thirty Rock.

565
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 6: They've also had additional NYPD patrols going on in the area.

566
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 6: So this has had a real chilling and ripple effect

567
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 6: throughout the NBC family.

568
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: By Gibbs, how hard is it to track bitcoin?

569
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 4: You know, what we learned recently is that this bitcoin

570
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 4: account associated with the ransom note is indeed and not

571
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 4: authentic account. Now, when it comes to tracking the ownership

572
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 4: of that account, that is certainly going to be a

573
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:10,959
Speaker 4: more difficult task.

574
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: Really, I thought it would be more like an IP

575
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: address on a computer.

576
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 4: This could be a lot more complicated than that.

577
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: Nancy, Well, okay, what do you mean by that. I'm

578
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: just a lawyer. What are you talking about. Why is

579
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: it hard to track a bitcoin account? Somebody's got to

580
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: create it, it's got to be listed back to somewhere,

581
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: it's got to be attached to Is it attached to

582
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: a bank or.

583
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 4: No, It's going to be possible. But the but bitcoin

584
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 4: inherently has certain amounts of privacy, a lot more than

585
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,959
Speaker 4: a standard bank account or an IP address would have

586
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 4: So you would have to assume that again, if this

587
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 4: is an authentic ransom demand, that the author of that

588
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 4: ransom note has gone to great lengths to secure that

589
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 4: Bitcoin account that could not be traced back to them,

590
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 4: And that is certainly possible.

591
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: Aren't they id by alpha numeric wallet addresses and not names?

592
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 4: That is correct, So you're not going to have an

593
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,479
Speaker 4: individual's name and street address associated with it like you would.

594
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 4: You know, if they said, you know, wire money to

595
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 4: this routing number in this checking account number, you know,

596
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 4: that would be easily traced and verified.

597
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you this.

598
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: You may think it's hard to try bitcoin, and maybe

599
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: it is, but what are they going to.

600
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: Let it sit there forever? At some point they're going

601
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: to move it.

602
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: And you want to tell me the Feds aren't going

603
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: to be up their tailpipes three inches when they try

604
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: to move that to another account, to another account, to

605
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: another account. I mean, Washington, DC, the FBI, they're crawling

606
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: with people that are digital experts.

607
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: This is their super bowl. Just please put money in

608
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 2: that bitcoin account and.

609
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: See what has Although I find it interesting, I think

610
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany brought it up that it was sent to

611
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: three news outlets tmz KO l D and K GUNN

612
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: K g u N. Why then, why not the family? Okay,

613
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: hold on just a second. I want to make sure

614
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: we've covered everything. The story that's floating around about an

615
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: elite group from Border Patrol entering into the fray Dave

616
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: Mac that's been discredited, correct.

617
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 3: Not just discredited. They were brought in for the first

618
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 3: day of searching in the area around the home, but

619
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 3: they were sent home Monday night.

620
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 1: Right now, I understand that the search is back on drones, helicopters,

621
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: foot searches had been called off for a period of

622
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 1: time and they have been renewed. That gives me hope.

623
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: That gives me hope that l E. Law enforcement believes

624
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: that they can find something through those searches. If you

625
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: know or think you know anything about the disappearance of

626
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 1: this beautiful grandma, Nancy Guthrie, please dial five two zero

627
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: three five one four nine hundred repeat five two zero

628
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: three five one four.

629
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 2: Nine hundred before I sign off.

630
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Gentry, I gave you a minute to think through

631
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: what you're hearing.

632
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 2: Any other analysis of the saine or the.

633
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 7: Blood any I think it's crazy that anybody would think

634
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 7: that they'd get away with this, Like you said, I mean,

635
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 7: with the FBI hundreds of detectives working on it, how

636
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 7: do they possibly think that this is a crime that

637
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 7: they can get away with. So I do definitely believe

638
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 7: that there is good hope that she's still alive, especially

639
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 7: considering the patterns, the circumstances, and hopefully they find her

640
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 7: and quickly and the rest of people that are involved.

641
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: I agree again Tipline five two zero three, five one

642
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: four nine hundred, and not only that, we are seeking

643
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: help from a higher source, and we ask that you

644
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: join the Guthrie family and the Crime Stories family in

645
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: prayers for the safe return of Nancy Guthrie to the

646
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: loving arms of her daughter, Savannah. Nancy Grace signing off

647
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: for now, goodbye friend,