1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:20,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, Today, I'm bringing you a 2 00:00:20,796 --> 00:00:23,716 Speaker 1: new episode from one of my favorite podcasts. It's another 3 00:00:23,756 --> 00:00:27,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin industry show called A Slight Change of Plans, hosted 4 00:00:27,436 --> 00:00:30,916 Speaker 1: by my former student, doctor Maya Shunker. In this episode, 5 00:00:31,036 --> 00:00:33,796 Speaker 1: Maya speaks with author Michael Pollin about a topic of 6 00:00:33,836 --> 00:00:37,676 Speaker 1: growing interest and happiness studies, the science of psychedelics. Michael 7 00:00:37,716 --> 00:00:40,516 Speaker 1: and Maya explore how these powerful chemicals work and how 8 00:00:40,516 --> 00:00:43,516 Speaker 1: guided psychedelic trips have the power to change our perspective 9 00:00:43,716 --> 00:00:46,796 Speaker 1: and our overall well being. And while I have you here, 10 00:00:47,036 --> 00:00:49,796 Speaker 1: just a reminder that our Giving Tuesday campaign is still 11 00:00:49,836 --> 00:00:51,716 Speaker 1: on until the end of the month. You can join 12 00:00:51,796 --> 00:00:54,396 Speaker 1: me and other Happiness Lab listeners in helping the people 13 00:00:54,436 --> 00:00:58,556 Speaker 1: of Gobobo in Rwanda through GiveDirectly dot org slash happiness. 14 00:00:59,036 --> 00:01:01,116 Speaker 1: Just five or ten bucks could really help a person 15 00:01:01,156 --> 00:01:04,836 Speaker 1: in need, so consider being generous. It'll help your happiness. 16 00:01:05,276 --> 00:01:10,276 Speaker 1: That's give directly dot org slash happiness now onto the episode. 17 00:01:10,436 --> 00:01:12,476 Speaker 1: If you like it, you can check out A Slight 18 00:01:12,556 --> 00:01:25,276 Speaker 1: Change of Plans wherever you get your podcasts. 19 00:01:27,196 --> 00:01:32,796 Speaker 2: I suddenly saw myself from outside and I saw myself 20 00:01:32,876 --> 00:01:35,956 Speaker 2: kind of explode in this cloud of blue post it notes, 21 00:01:36,276 --> 00:01:39,036 Speaker 2: you know, like confetti, and they came down to the 22 00:01:39,076 --> 00:01:41,636 Speaker 2: ground and they kind of masked in this pool of 23 00:01:41,716 --> 00:01:45,756 Speaker 2: blue paint. And that was me. I had complete acceptance 24 00:01:46,036 --> 00:01:49,396 Speaker 2: that had I died and vanished, that was fine. It 25 00:01:49,436 --> 00:01:52,036 Speaker 2: was what was meant to be. There was a continuing 26 00:01:52,156 --> 00:01:56,236 Speaker 2: consciousness of some kind. I know it sounds crazy and 27 00:01:57,196 --> 00:01:58,436 Speaker 2: very hard to put into words. 28 00:01:59,396 --> 00:02:03,076 Speaker 3: That's renowned author Michael Pollan. He's talking about how a 29 00:02:03,116 --> 00:02:07,156 Speaker 3: guided psychedelic trip on psilocybin, a molecule found in mushrooms, 30 00:02:07,436 --> 00:02:10,676 Speaker 3: helped him see his mortality through an entirely new lens. 31 00:02:11,276 --> 00:02:14,316 Speaker 2: This is a very non interventionist therapy. The therapists say 32 00:02:14,396 --> 00:02:16,516 Speaker 2: nothing during the experience except would you like a glass 33 00:02:16,516 --> 00:02:18,756 Speaker 2: of water or a snack or need to go to 34 00:02:18,796 --> 00:02:23,036 Speaker 2: the bathroom. It really they let your mind go where 35 00:02:23,036 --> 00:02:25,516 Speaker 2: your mind wants to go. It is a kind of 36 00:02:25,956 --> 00:02:27,876 Speaker 2: self exploration, self healing. 37 00:02:31,436 --> 00:02:34,156 Speaker 3: On today's show, we hear from Michael Pollan about how 38 00:02:34,196 --> 00:02:38,276 Speaker 3: plants have the power to change our minds. I'm Maya 39 00:02:38,316 --> 00:02:41,076 Speaker 3: Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, a 40 00:02:41,116 --> 00:02:43,516 Speaker 3: show about who we are and who we become in 41 00:02:43,556 --> 00:02:58,876 Speaker 3: the face of a big change I'm fascinated by the 42 00:02:58,916 --> 00:03:03,116 Speaker 3: kinds of experiences that can drastically change our perspectives, and 43 00:03:03,196 --> 00:03:06,236 Speaker 3: guided psychedelic trips have the potential to do just that. 44 00:03:06,876 --> 00:03:09,956 Speaker 3: While psychedelics aren't legal in the US, have been used 45 00:03:10,036 --> 00:03:14,316 Speaker 3: in certain clinical trials and have delivered powerful therapeutic benefits 46 00:03:14,356 --> 00:03:19,276 Speaker 3: for people struggling with things like addiction, depression, and existential distress. 47 00:03:20,196 --> 00:03:22,756 Speaker 3: So what's happening to our brains under their influence that 48 00:03:22,796 --> 00:03:27,196 Speaker 3: gives rise to these remarkable changes. Michael's written two books 49 00:03:27,236 --> 00:03:29,996 Speaker 3: that explore the answer to this question, How to Change 50 00:03:30,036 --> 00:03:33,036 Speaker 3: Your Mind and This is Your Mind on Plants. And 51 00:03:33,116 --> 00:03:36,716 Speaker 3: so today we dig into the science of psychedelics. We 52 00:03:36,836 --> 00:03:40,716 Speaker 3: started off by discussing the somewhat astonishing fact that basically 53 00:03:40,796 --> 00:03:44,876 Speaker 3: every culture in the world has discovered psychoactive plants. They 54 00:03:44,916 --> 00:03:48,756 Speaker 3: contain molecules that can alter human consciousness. We're talking about 55 00:03:48,756 --> 00:03:51,476 Speaker 3: the morphine and the opium poppy and the caffeine in 56 00:03:51,596 --> 00:03:55,116 Speaker 3: coffee and tea. Michael says, there are a few explanations 57 00:03:55,156 --> 00:03:58,756 Speaker 3: for why we're so drawn to these substances. For starters, 58 00:03:58,796 --> 00:04:01,316 Speaker 3: they can provide pain, relief and stave off boredom. 59 00:04:02,036 --> 00:04:06,036 Speaker 2: But then I think that there are more profound uses 60 00:04:06,076 --> 00:04:09,596 Speaker 2: to which people have put these psychoactive plants. Talking here 61 00:04:09,636 --> 00:04:13,836 Speaker 2: about the more powerful ones, the ones we call psychedelics, 62 00:04:13,876 --> 00:04:18,236 Speaker 2: and that is for access to other realms, other dimensions 63 00:04:18,236 --> 00:04:23,596 Speaker 2: of reality and afterworld and underworld, and religious visions essentially, 64 00:04:24,036 --> 00:04:26,836 Speaker 2: you know, mystical experiences that are at the heart of 65 00:04:26,876 --> 00:04:30,076 Speaker 2: a great many religions. And it may well be that 66 00:04:30,396 --> 00:04:34,676 Speaker 2: it was these psychedelic substances that opened up that way 67 00:04:34,716 --> 00:04:40,676 Speaker 2: of thinking, that gave people the visions that were interpreted 68 00:04:41,156 --> 00:04:43,996 Speaker 2: in such a way as to underwrite whole religions. And 69 00:04:44,076 --> 00:04:48,316 Speaker 2: we just think of the artists who were influenced by psychoactives, 70 00:04:48,396 --> 00:04:52,956 Speaker 2: you know, new metaphors, new insights, or scientific discoveries. I mean, 71 00:04:52,956 --> 00:04:56,876 Speaker 2: there's a great many scientific discoveries that trace to psychedelic use. 72 00:04:57,476 --> 00:04:59,596 Speaker 2: I think of it as the natural history of imagination. 73 00:05:00,276 --> 00:05:02,516 Speaker 2: But it sure is interesting to think about. 74 00:05:02,876 --> 00:05:05,316 Speaker 3: It is, and I mean it is striking to me 75 00:05:05,516 --> 00:05:11,436 Speaker 3: that it just appears like normal consciousness isn't enough for 76 00:05:11,516 --> 00:05:15,116 Speaker 3: us humans, right, Like we're not sated by it. And look, 77 00:05:15,156 --> 00:05:18,716 Speaker 3: there's obviously a continuum. And I fall closer to the 78 00:05:19,196 --> 00:05:22,356 Speaker 3: risk averse. I'm more of a boring person who seems 79 00:05:23,156 --> 00:05:27,036 Speaker 3: I feel totally fulfilled by my current realm of consciousness. 80 00:05:27,036 --> 00:05:28,916 Speaker 3: I know lots of other people have a much more 81 00:05:29,236 --> 00:05:33,556 Speaker 3: exploratory mindset, but it is striking that across all cultures 82 00:05:34,076 --> 00:05:40,676 Speaker 3: there is some itch for something beyond our everyday conscious experience, and. 83 00:05:40,596 --> 00:05:44,076 Speaker 2: We seek transcendence. Of course, not just through drugs. Extreme 84 00:05:44,156 --> 00:05:47,236 Speaker 2: sports and intense periods of physical activity can do it 85 00:05:47,436 --> 00:05:49,996 Speaker 2: releasing drugs in the brain basically, I mean, we can 86 00:05:50,036 --> 00:05:53,716 Speaker 2: drug ourselves in all sorts of ways. Fasting, does it, dance, 87 00:05:53,876 --> 00:05:58,116 Speaker 2: ecstatic dance, rhythm, you know, drumming. I think the desire 88 00:05:58,156 --> 00:06:01,836 Speaker 2: for transcendence goes really deep, and it's interesting. I mean, 89 00:06:02,356 --> 00:06:07,236 Speaker 2: do other creatures have it? We know that some other 90 00:06:07,316 --> 00:06:11,996 Speaker 2: animals do like to change consciousness from their Elephants love 91 00:06:12,036 --> 00:06:16,556 Speaker 2: alcohol apparently and apparently birds will you know, favor cannabis 92 00:06:16,596 --> 00:06:19,196 Speaker 2: seeds over all different kinds seems to addle them a 93 00:06:19,196 --> 00:06:23,716 Speaker 2: little bit. But transcendence, that idea that you know that 94 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:28,236 Speaker 2: there is another, there is another realm of existence, another 95 00:06:28,276 --> 00:06:31,036 Speaker 2: way to be, is something that I think is a 96 00:06:31,036 --> 00:06:32,076 Speaker 2: deep human desire. 97 00:06:32,756 --> 00:06:35,316 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm wondering, Michael, if you can give us a 98 00:06:35,356 --> 00:06:39,236 Speaker 3: quick history lesson because in recent years, there's been a 99 00:06:39,356 --> 00:06:43,196 Speaker 3: huge resurgence of interest in the therapeutic benefits of psychedelics 100 00:06:43,236 --> 00:06:48,956 Speaker 3: for people with anxiety, depression, addiction, terminal illness. What's been 101 00:06:49,036 --> 00:06:51,316 Speaker 3: responsible for this shift. 102 00:06:51,076 --> 00:06:53,756 Speaker 2: Well, you know, one of the big surprises in researching 103 00:06:53,756 --> 00:06:57,756 Speaker 2: psychedelics was discovering how much research had been done during 104 00:06:57,756 --> 00:07:01,116 Speaker 2: this period from the late forties through the mid sixties 105 00:07:01,156 --> 00:07:04,796 Speaker 2: and the fifties. It was, you know, a really vibrant 106 00:07:04,796 --> 00:07:09,236 Speaker 2: field of research with some very promising results using LSD 107 00:07:09,316 --> 00:07:12,716 Speaker 2: and psilocybin to treat alcoholism, end of life anxiety, things 108 00:07:12,836 --> 00:07:16,516 Speaker 2: like that. It was completely respectable, and then the work 109 00:07:16,516 --> 00:07:19,916 Speaker 2: stops in the late sixties early seventies, there is a 110 00:07:19,956 --> 00:07:24,356 Speaker 2: tremendous backlash under President Nixon, and the culture kind of 111 00:07:24,356 --> 00:07:28,356 Speaker 2: turns against them. There's a backlash and the media, which 112 00:07:28,356 --> 00:07:32,596 Speaker 2: had been incredibly positive about psychedelics turns on a dime, 113 00:07:32,996 --> 00:07:36,196 Speaker 2: and so the research stops. The way it gets restarted 114 00:07:36,716 --> 00:07:39,996 Speaker 2: is really a function of a couple things. One is, 115 00:07:40,036 --> 00:07:44,276 Speaker 2: you have a group of psychiatrists therapists of other kinds 116 00:07:44,316 --> 00:07:47,196 Speaker 2: who never lost faith in the fact that these were 117 00:07:47,276 --> 00:07:50,196 Speaker 2: powerful therapeutic agents, and in fact, some of them were 118 00:07:50,196 --> 00:07:54,076 Speaker 2: working with them underground, and people in that world started 119 00:07:54,156 --> 00:07:57,676 Speaker 2: kind of plotting the return of psychedelics. And then in 120 00:07:57,716 --> 00:08:01,276 Speaker 2: the early nineties they kind of got a signal from 121 00:08:01,316 --> 00:08:05,036 Speaker 2: the FDA. There was a bureaucrat there in charge of 122 00:08:05,116 --> 00:08:09,316 Speaker 2: drug development, and he basically sends a signal to researchers that, look, 123 00:08:09,836 --> 00:08:12,796 Speaker 2: we're going to just treat psychedelics like any other drug. 124 00:08:12,916 --> 00:08:15,036 Speaker 2: If you've got a good experiment, if you've got a 125 00:08:15,076 --> 00:08:18,036 Speaker 2: good indication, you think it's going to be useful for 126 00:08:18,476 --> 00:08:23,196 Speaker 2: We're not going to discriminate against it. The key moment, 127 00:08:23,276 --> 00:08:27,116 Speaker 2: I think, though, comes when Bob Jesse, who is an 128 00:08:27,156 --> 00:08:30,876 Speaker 2: interesting character. He's not a doctor or a therapist. He's 129 00:08:30,916 --> 00:08:35,716 Speaker 2: a computer engineer at Oracle who had experiences with psychedelics 130 00:08:35,796 --> 00:08:40,756 Speaker 2: that had convinced him of their value. And he reaches 131 00:08:40,796 --> 00:08:43,716 Speaker 2: out to a man named Roland Griffith, who is a 132 00:08:44,076 --> 00:08:47,756 Speaker 2: very well respected psychopharmacologist at Johns Hopkins, you know, the 133 00:08:47,836 --> 00:08:51,476 Speaker 2: leading medical institution in the country, and they cook up 134 00:08:51,516 --> 00:08:54,436 Speaker 2: this study and it's not a clinical study, it's not 135 00:08:54,476 --> 00:08:57,156 Speaker 2: a therapeutic study at all. It's an effort to see 136 00:08:57,196 --> 00:09:01,396 Speaker 2: whether you could induce a mystical type experience in someone 137 00:09:01,476 --> 00:09:04,756 Speaker 2: with a high dose of psilocybin. Mystical type experience is 138 00:09:04,796 --> 00:09:08,636 Speaker 2: something that Roland is personally very interested in, and they 139 00:09:08,676 --> 00:09:12,556 Speaker 2: do this that's published in two thousand and six, and 140 00:09:12,636 --> 00:09:15,396 Speaker 2: it's the craziest study. I mean, the title is something 141 00:09:15,516 --> 00:09:20,356 Speaker 2: like psilocybin can occasion mystical type experience in healthy, normal people, 142 00:09:20,516 --> 00:09:23,516 Speaker 2: something like that. And for me to see these words 143 00:09:23,596 --> 00:09:27,556 Speaker 2: mystical experience in the pages of a medical journal was 144 00:09:27,636 --> 00:09:28,836 Speaker 2: just so mind blowing. 145 00:09:30,076 --> 00:09:32,596 Speaker 3: And what is the hallmark of a mystical experience? 146 00:09:33,196 --> 00:09:36,276 Speaker 2: Good question, I had no idea, but it involves a 147 00:09:36,316 --> 00:09:41,036 Speaker 2: transcendence of space and time. Are euphoric feeling or feeling 148 00:09:41,116 --> 00:09:46,916 Speaker 2: of intense well being, a dissolution of ego followed by 149 00:09:46,956 --> 00:09:50,036 Speaker 2: a sense of merging with something larger than yourself. You 150 00:09:50,116 --> 00:09:53,356 Speaker 2: feel connected to nature or other people or the universe 151 00:09:53,396 --> 00:09:57,996 Speaker 2: of the divinity. And they found that of the two 152 00:09:58,076 --> 00:10:01,396 Speaker 2: thirds of people who had this mystical experience, they reported 153 00:10:01,756 --> 00:10:04,636 Speaker 2: enduring changes in their sense of well being going out 154 00:10:04,716 --> 00:10:07,876 Speaker 2: six weeks or eight weeks or something. And in a 155 00:10:08,076 --> 00:10:11,796 Speaker 2: follow up study they found that aspects of their personality, 156 00:10:12,356 --> 00:10:17,676 Speaker 2: specifically openness, the trait of openness increased, And that's quite 157 00:10:17,716 --> 00:10:21,956 Speaker 2: striking because in general, personality doesn't change in adults. So 158 00:10:22,036 --> 00:10:26,556 Speaker 2: this study really is the foundation on which subsequent work 159 00:10:27,276 --> 00:10:29,756 Speaker 2: has been done. And by looking at these results that 160 00:10:29,796 --> 00:10:32,516 Speaker 2: there seemed to be an improvement and well being, the 161 00:10:32,636 --> 00:10:37,316 Speaker 2: idea occurred, well, we should try this with cancer patients. 162 00:10:37,956 --> 00:10:39,996 Speaker 2: We should try this with people who have what the 163 00:10:40,756 --> 00:10:45,756 Speaker 2: psychiatrists call existential distress over their diagnosis or the proximity 164 00:10:45,796 --> 00:10:49,476 Speaker 2: of death. And that became the first clinical trial that 165 00:10:49,636 --> 00:10:51,796 Speaker 2: the people at Hopkins did, and it was duplicated at 166 00:10:51,796 --> 00:10:52,876 Speaker 2: the same time at NYU. 167 00:10:53,916 --> 00:10:56,796 Speaker 3: Yeah. You know, what's notable about some of these controlled 168 00:10:56,836 --> 00:11:00,716 Speaker 3: studies is that participants report that their guided experiences on 169 00:11:00,796 --> 00:11:04,996 Speaker 3: psychedelics are totally singular in nature, right, that they count 170 00:11:05,036 --> 00:11:09,276 Speaker 3: among the top most meaningful experiences they've ever had. And 171 00:11:09,596 --> 00:11:12,196 Speaker 3: I'd love to dig into the neuroscience just a bit 172 00:11:12,276 --> 00:11:15,516 Speaker 3: so we can understand what is giving rise to these 173 00:11:15,596 --> 00:11:17,316 Speaker 3: exceptional subjective states. 174 00:11:17,716 --> 00:11:20,316 Speaker 2: Well, the honest answer is, we don't really know. We 175 00:11:20,436 --> 00:11:24,556 Speaker 2: have some really interesting hints, but there's a lot more 176 00:11:24,596 --> 00:11:28,516 Speaker 2: work to be done. A researcher in England named Robin 177 00:11:28,596 --> 00:11:33,276 Speaker 2: Carhart Harris put people in an fMRI machine and injected 178 00:11:33,316 --> 00:11:36,956 Speaker 2: them with psilocybin in one trial and LSD in another, 179 00:11:37,676 --> 00:11:42,116 Speaker 2: and he found something very interesting. Where he expected to 180 00:11:42,116 --> 00:11:47,356 Speaker 2: see a kind of explosion of activity mirroring the extraordinary 181 00:11:47,596 --> 00:11:51,716 Speaker 2: visual effects and emotional effects, he actually found the most 182 00:11:51,716 --> 00:11:55,396 Speaker 2: notable thing was a quieting of activity in one particular network. 183 00:11:55,956 --> 00:11:58,076 Speaker 2: And this network, which I had never heard of, is 184 00:11:58,276 --> 00:12:02,796 Speaker 2: the default mode network. The default mode network is the 185 00:12:02,876 --> 00:12:05,036 Speaker 2: part of your brain that's most active when you're not 186 00:12:05,076 --> 00:12:08,316 Speaker 2: doing anything. It's where your brain goes. It's the default 187 00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:11,436 Speaker 2: and it was discover when they were doing fMRI tasks 188 00:12:11,436 --> 00:12:13,476 Speaker 2: of other kinds and they had to get the baseline. 189 00:12:13,516 --> 00:12:16,636 Speaker 2: So they tell people don't do anything, don't think about anything, 190 00:12:17,076 --> 00:12:18,996 Speaker 2: or try not to think about anything, just lie there, 191 00:12:19,316 --> 00:12:21,276 Speaker 2: and it turns out their brains lit up and all 192 00:12:21,316 --> 00:12:23,076 Speaker 2: sorts of stuff went on, and a lot of it 193 00:12:23,156 --> 00:12:29,756 Speaker 2: involved self reflection, worry, rumination, thinking about the future, thinking 194 00:12:29,756 --> 00:12:33,036 Speaker 2: about the past. The default mode network seems to be 195 00:12:33,156 --> 00:12:37,396 Speaker 2: involved with creating this projection or illusion that we have 196 00:12:37,436 --> 00:12:40,596 Speaker 2: as self. It's involved in time travel, the ability to 197 00:12:40,636 --> 00:12:42,916 Speaker 2: think about the future and the past, which, if you 198 00:12:42,916 --> 00:12:45,516 Speaker 2: think about it, you need if you're going to have 199 00:12:45,556 --> 00:12:47,996 Speaker 2: a sense of self. Our sense of self is what's 200 00:12:48,036 --> 00:12:49,836 Speaker 2: happened to us in the past, and what we hope 201 00:12:49,876 --> 00:12:51,836 Speaker 2: will happen in the future, or what we think might 202 00:12:51,876 --> 00:12:54,876 Speaker 2: happen to us in the future. It's also involved in 203 00:12:54,916 --> 00:12:58,596 Speaker 2: something called theory of mind. That's the ability to imagine 204 00:12:58,716 --> 00:13:01,716 Speaker 2: the thoughts of other people, to understand that other people 205 00:13:01,796 --> 00:13:05,316 Speaker 2: have thoughts, have a subjectivity, have an interiority. That's a 206 00:13:05,316 --> 00:13:09,796 Speaker 2: big deal, And it's involved in the what's called the 207 00:13:09,916 --> 00:13:13,996 Speaker 2: narrative self, the story we tell ourselves of who we 208 00:13:14,156 --> 00:13:17,436 Speaker 2: are and how we take new events and kind of 209 00:13:17,436 --> 00:13:21,196 Speaker 2: weave them into that narrative. So you know, to the 210 00:13:21,236 --> 00:13:23,676 Speaker 2: extent the self has an address in the brain, it 211 00:13:23,716 --> 00:13:27,716 Speaker 2: appears to be in this network. And this network gets 212 00:13:27,956 --> 00:13:33,196 Speaker 2: very quiet under psychedelics and in the minds of very 213 00:13:33,276 --> 00:13:38,636 Speaker 2: experienced meditators and you know Robin. Then you know correlated 214 00:13:38,756 --> 00:13:44,356 Speaker 2: reports of ego dissolution, and people can describe that it's 215 00:13:44,436 --> 00:13:48,836 Speaker 2: quite a wild experience. You observe your sense of self 216 00:13:48,876 --> 00:13:54,556 Speaker 2: completely melting or crumbling. It once happened to me when 217 00:13:54,556 --> 00:13:57,956 Speaker 2: people reported that they had the most precipitous drops in 218 00:13:58,036 --> 00:14:00,356 Speaker 2: activity in the default mode network. So that's one of 219 00:14:00,396 --> 00:14:05,316 Speaker 2: the findings really of psychedelic science already that is significant, 220 00:14:05,316 --> 00:14:08,076 Speaker 2: I think for our understanding of consciousness and the self. 221 00:14:08,356 --> 00:14:10,636 Speaker 2: But it's not the only theory of what's going on. 222 00:14:10,716 --> 00:14:13,036 Speaker 2: There are people who aren't sold on the default mode. 223 00:14:13,196 --> 00:14:17,516 Speaker 2: We're hoping to get some more precise answers to these questions. 224 00:14:18,316 --> 00:14:23,156 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, in addition to some of the therapeutic effects, 225 00:14:23,276 --> 00:14:27,916 Speaker 3: it is so compelling that this basic research can help 226 00:14:27,956 --> 00:14:31,836 Speaker 3: us further understand what brain structures are associated with our 227 00:14:31,876 --> 00:14:32,516 Speaker 3: sense of self. 228 00:14:33,036 --> 00:14:39,036 Speaker 2: Yeah. There's another area to investigate, too, is what psychedelics 229 00:14:39,116 --> 00:14:43,476 Speaker 2: might teach us about the consciousness of children. You may 230 00:14:43,516 --> 00:14:44,996 Speaker 2: know Alison Gopnik. 231 00:14:44,596 --> 00:14:47,076 Speaker 3: Allison, Yes, I'm such a fan of hers. 232 00:14:47,236 --> 00:14:51,996 Speaker 2: And she studies child consciousness and problem solving, and she's 233 00:14:52,076 --> 00:14:57,156 Speaker 2: convinced that the psychedelic experience is as close as adults 234 00:14:57,196 --> 00:14:59,876 Speaker 2: get to the mind of the child and the way 235 00:14:59,916 --> 00:15:02,236 Speaker 2: of thinking and the kind of what she describes as 236 00:15:02,276 --> 00:15:07,396 Speaker 2: the lantern consciousness, as opposed to the spotlight consciousness of adults, 237 00:15:07,396 --> 00:15:10,876 Speaker 2: which is very focused in linear. Children take in information 238 00:15:10,956 --> 00:15:13,596 Speaker 2: from all different sides, which allows for a different kind 239 00:15:13,596 --> 00:15:17,836 Speaker 2: of creativity, and she thinks that there's a retrogression in 240 00:15:17,876 --> 00:15:21,956 Speaker 2: psychedelic consciousness that closely resembles that of children, So that's 241 00:15:21,996 --> 00:15:25,276 Speaker 2: a whole other avenue of exploration. That's very exciting. 242 00:15:25,636 --> 00:15:28,396 Speaker 3: Yeah. I love her quote that babies and children are 243 00:15:28,436 --> 00:15:32,396 Speaker 3: basically tripping all the time. Yes, what a lovely, colorful 244 00:15:32,396 --> 00:15:32,996 Speaker 3: way of saying it. 245 00:15:33,276 --> 00:15:37,116 Speaker 2: This was an insight she had when her granddaughter was born. 246 00:15:38,356 --> 00:15:41,596 Speaker 3: I love that. Yeah. You know you mentioned that you 247 00:15:42,516 --> 00:15:45,556 Speaker 3: did have the experience of feeling your ego dissolved, and 248 00:15:45,636 --> 00:15:47,836 Speaker 3: I know you did try psychedelics while you were writing 249 00:15:47,876 --> 00:15:50,596 Speaker 3: your book. You say that you felt your sense of 250 00:15:50,636 --> 00:15:54,076 Speaker 3: self scattered to the wind like a blizzard of post its. 251 00:15:55,356 --> 00:15:58,036 Speaker 3: And I'm wondering, can you just paint a scene of 252 00:15:58,076 --> 00:16:01,916 Speaker 3: the many ways in which ego dissolution expressed itself during 253 00:16:01,956 --> 00:16:02,476 Speaker 3: your trips. 254 00:16:03,276 --> 00:16:07,756 Speaker 2: It was such an interesting, strange experience. I was really 255 00:16:07,796 --> 00:16:10,596 Speaker 2: not prepared for it. So I had a fairly high 256 00:16:10,676 --> 00:16:15,756 Speaker 2: dose psilocybin experience guided by an underground guide, somebody I 257 00:16:15,796 --> 00:16:18,676 Speaker 2: really trusted. And I mentioned that because if you're going 258 00:16:18,756 --> 00:16:23,036 Speaker 2: to let go to the extent of allowing your sense 259 00:16:23,076 --> 00:16:25,476 Speaker 2: of self to completely vanish, you're going to have to 260 00:16:25,476 --> 00:16:28,076 Speaker 2: feel very safe and very comfortable. And I did you 261 00:16:28,116 --> 00:16:32,676 Speaker 2: know under her guidance, and anyway, at a certain point 262 00:16:32,756 --> 00:16:36,836 Speaker 2: well into the experience. She offered me what's called a 263 00:16:36,836 --> 00:16:39,236 Speaker 2: booster dose, and I figured in for a dime, in 264 00:16:39,276 --> 00:16:41,596 Speaker 2: for a dollar. I was doing this for my book, actually, 265 00:16:41,676 --> 00:16:43,396 Speaker 2: and so I said sure, and I ate. 266 00:16:43,396 --> 00:16:46,036 Speaker 3: Another my research purposes, strictly for. 267 00:16:46,036 --> 00:16:49,076 Speaker 2: Research purposes, you know, in the interest of my readers, 268 00:16:49,756 --> 00:16:52,316 Speaker 2: because it really was because I was although I was 269 00:16:52,396 --> 00:16:55,196 Speaker 2: very curious, I was very afraid to do psychedelics, you know. 270 00:16:55,716 --> 00:16:57,756 Speaker 2: I didn't do this till I was like in my 271 00:16:57,836 --> 00:17:02,116 Speaker 2: late fifties, and I had a lot of fear of 272 00:17:02,476 --> 00:17:04,796 Speaker 2: what could happen. I had read the stories of you know, 273 00:17:05,076 --> 00:17:08,036 Speaker 2: bad trips, and I didn't know what. Also, you can 274 00:17:08,116 --> 00:17:14,076 Speaker 2: discover really unpleasant things about yourself. And anyway, at this point, 275 00:17:14,476 --> 00:17:20,076 Speaker 2: I suddenly saw myself from outside, and I saw myself 276 00:17:20,156 --> 00:17:22,756 Speaker 2: kind of explode in this cloud of post it notes, 277 00:17:22,916 --> 00:17:26,436 Speaker 2: blue post it notes, you know, like confetti, and they 278 00:17:26,476 --> 00:17:28,916 Speaker 2: came down to the ground and they kind of masked 279 00:17:28,916 --> 00:17:31,916 Speaker 2: in this pool of blue paint. And that was me. 280 00:17:32,156 --> 00:17:34,836 Speaker 2: And I was absolutely sure it was me, but I 281 00:17:34,956 --> 00:17:38,276 Speaker 2: was perceiving it from this new perspective that I had 282 00:17:38,436 --> 00:17:41,996 Speaker 2: never experienced before. I don't know quite what it was. 283 00:17:42,076 --> 00:17:47,916 Speaker 2: It wasn't me it was very equable, disinterested. It had 284 00:17:47,956 --> 00:17:51,276 Speaker 2: no problem with what had happened. I didn't feel threatened 285 00:17:51,316 --> 00:17:54,356 Speaker 2: in any way, and that was me. I was gone 286 00:17:54,636 --> 00:17:57,996 Speaker 2: and that was fine, but I was still aware. And 287 00:17:58,036 --> 00:18:00,796 Speaker 2: it was the first time it ever occurred to me 288 00:18:00,876 --> 00:18:04,956 Speaker 2: that you could have awareness without self, which is something 289 00:18:05,196 --> 00:18:07,916 Speaker 2: Buddhists and Hindus will tell you about. But you know, 290 00:18:07,996 --> 00:18:11,796 Speaker 2: that seemed very far from my experience. And then what 291 00:18:11,996 --> 00:18:15,516 Speaker 2: happens when you don't have a self is that that 292 00:18:15,916 --> 00:18:20,676 Speaker 2: you merge with everything around you. And in this case, 293 00:18:20,836 --> 00:18:27,556 Speaker 2: what I merged with was a piece of music. And 294 00:18:27,596 --> 00:18:30,516 Speaker 2: she put on Bach's Unaccompanied Cello Suite number two in 295 00:18:30,596 --> 00:18:32,596 Speaker 2: D minor, which is a very sad piece of music, 296 00:18:32,876 --> 00:18:36,156 Speaker 2: so gorgeous, yeah, and I and I became one with 297 00:18:36,236 --> 00:18:44,356 Speaker 2: the music. It was complete merging, and it was incredibly beautiful. 298 00:18:44,396 --> 00:18:46,916 Speaker 2: It's the most profound experience of music I'd ever had. 299 00:18:47,276 --> 00:18:50,676 Speaker 2: And I felt as though the bow, the horsehair of 300 00:18:50,716 --> 00:18:52,996 Speaker 2: the bow, was going over my body. And then at 301 00:18:52,996 --> 00:18:56,716 Speaker 2: one point that I was inside the well of this, 302 00:18:56,956 --> 00:19:02,156 Speaker 2: you know, this wooden container, and it was so beautiful, 303 00:19:02,876 --> 00:19:05,156 Speaker 2: and although it was very sad, I wouldn't call it 304 00:19:05,196 --> 00:19:08,076 Speaker 2: a happy experience. It was very sad. It was all 305 00:19:08,116 --> 00:19:10,476 Speaker 2: about death. I mean that the piece of music. To me, 306 00:19:10,676 --> 00:19:21,036 Speaker 2: it was all about death. But I was completely I 307 00:19:21,036 --> 00:19:25,396 Speaker 2: had complete acceptance that had I died and vanished, that 308 00:19:25,596 --> 00:19:28,836 Speaker 2: was fine. It was what was meant to be. Something 309 00:19:28,956 --> 00:19:31,836 Speaker 2: followed on that death of the self. There was a 310 00:19:31,876 --> 00:19:35,796 Speaker 2: continuing consciousness of some kind. I know it sounds crazy 311 00:19:36,716 --> 00:19:40,596 Speaker 2: and very hard to put into words. I struggled to 312 00:19:40,636 --> 00:19:42,876 Speaker 2: describe it in the book, but it was one of 313 00:19:42,876 --> 00:19:45,556 Speaker 2: the most profound experiences of my life. 314 00:19:45,596 --> 00:19:49,636 Speaker 3: The struggle you're having putting your experience into words is 315 00:19:49,956 --> 00:19:53,876 Speaker 3: very characteristic of how many people feel after a trip. Right. 316 00:19:53,916 --> 00:19:56,196 Speaker 3: They're saying, this is one of the most profound experiences 317 00:19:56,236 --> 00:19:58,516 Speaker 3: of my life, and yet when they try and express 318 00:19:58,556 --> 00:20:02,236 Speaker 3: it in words, it sounds cliche new ag you know, 319 00:20:02,436 --> 00:20:05,676 Speaker 3: everything is love, that sort of thing. It's interesting. I 320 00:20:05,716 --> 00:20:09,756 Speaker 3: was interviewing Casey Musgraves, the country music singer maybe episode 321 00:20:09,796 --> 00:20:11,996 Speaker 3: of a Slight Change of Plans, about her psychedelic trip, 322 00:20:12,356 --> 00:20:15,716 Speaker 3: and I was actually asking whether the ability to create 323 00:20:16,036 --> 00:20:20,076 Speaker 3: music in some way was an antidote to her inability 324 00:20:20,116 --> 00:20:23,516 Speaker 3: to fully express the profound insights that she had had 325 00:20:23,756 --> 00:20:25,836 Speaker 3: using the words that we have at our disposal. 326 00:20:26,836 --> 00:20:29,636 Speaker 2: Well, you know, you've just reminded me of one of 327 00:20:29,676 --> 00:20:32,756 Speaker 2: the other of the eight characteristics of mystical experience, and 328 00:20:32,796 --> 00:20:37,276 Speaker 2: that's ineffability, the fact that these are very hard to 329 00:20:37,316 --> 00:20:41,076 Speaker 2: describe because it kind of defies the language we have. 330 00:20:41,516 --> 00:20:44,556 Speaker 2: Our language wasn't built to describe these kinds of experiences. 331 00:20:44,956 --> 00:20:47,916 Speaker 2: And the other thing that you alluded to is that 332 00:20:48,036 --> 00:20:53,436 Speaker 2: there is a tremendous banality to some of the insights, 333 00:20:53,516 --> 00:20:56,716 Speaker 2: the profound insights that people have, such as love is 334 00:20:56,756 --> 00:21:00,276 Speaker 2: the most important principle in the universe. You know, that 335 00:21:00,396 --> 00:21:03,156 Speaker 2: is banal, but it's also profound. And one of the 336 00:21:03,156 --> 00:21:05,476 Speaker 2: things you come out of the experience realizing is that 337 00:21:05,516 --> 00:21:09,476 Speaker 2: it's a very fine line between banality and profundity. And 338 00:21:09,596 --> 00:21:11,956 Speaker 2: one of the things psychedelics does is it takes all 339 00:21:12,076 --> 00:21:15,676 Speaker 2: that ironic crust we cover the world with and it 340 00:21:16,036 --> 00:21:20,556 Speaker 2: scrapes it off really effectively, and suddenly things appear with 341 00:21:20,756 --> 00:21:25,036 Speaker 2: the profundity and beauty of first sight. I mean, awe 342 00:21:25,716 --> 00:21:29,116 Speaker 2: at the ordinary is a really you know, a piece 343 00:21:29,156 --> 00:21:33,236 Speaker 2: of music, a flower, I mean, And that's another way 344 00:21:33,236 --> 00:21:35,596 Speaker 2: in which I think you're recovering the mind of the child. 345 00:21:36,156 --> 00:21:39,876 Speaker 2: And that's a wonderful aspect of psychedelic experience. 346 00:21:44,676 --> 00:21:46,676 Speaker 3: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 347 00:21:46,676 --> 00:21:56,116 Speaker 3: of plants. I'm talking with Michael Polland about how psychedelics 348 00:21:56,156 --> 00:21:59,156 Speaker 3: can change our minds. I wanted to hear more about 349 00:21:59,156 --> 00:22:02,996 Speaker 3: the therapeutic benefits of psychedelics. Studies show that when they're 350 00:22:03,036 --> 00:22:06,316 Speaker 3: administered and guided clinical settings, they can help with a 351 00:22:06,396 --> 00:22:11,476 Speaker 3: surprisingly vast number of mental health conditions, including depression, anxiety, 352 00:22:11,636 --> 00:22:14,196 Speaker 3: obsessive compulsive disorder, and fear of death. 353 00:22:15,036 --> 00:22:20,196 Speaker 2: Now, I was initially kind of suspicious of the you know, 354 00:22:20,436 --> 00:22:22,836 Speaker 2: is this some sort of panacea. It's being used for 355 00:22:22,876 --> 00:22:26,276 Speaker 2: all these different things. And I remember interviewing Tom Insull, 356 00:22:27,276 --> 00:22:30,156 Speaker 2: a psychiatrist, former head of the National Institute of Mental Health, 357 00:22:30,876 --> 00:22:32,516 Speaker 2: and I said, isn't this a little weird that all 358 00:22:32,556 --> 00:22:36,356 Speaker 2: these different indications are responding to the same kind of treatment, 359 00:22:36,476 --> 00:22:39,956 Speaker 2: And he said, well, you're assuming that they're all different, 360 00:22:40,036 --> 00:22:42,836 Speaker 2: you know, indications. They may be symptoms of a similar brain. 361 00:22:42,956 --> 00:22:45,596 Speaker 2: And that is that a brain that's overly rigid and 362 00:22:45,716 --> 00:22:49,796 Speaker 2: it's thinking that's trapped in patterns of rumination. And indeed, 363 00:22:49,876 --> 00:22:56,476 Speaker 2: all those things depression, anxiety, obsession, addiction represent people stuck 364 00:22:56,596 --> 00:23:01,036 Speaker 2: in loops of destructive thought and behavior, and that what 365 00:23:01,156 --> 00:23:04,076 Speaker 2: psychedelics may do is help you break out of that. 366 00:23:04,396 --> 00:23:07,836 Speaker 3: I mean, certainly that's consonant with the use of SSRI's 367 00:23:07,876 --> 00:23:14,156 Speaker 3: selective serchonin rep conhibitors rights, OCDA, anxiety, depression, et cetera. 368 00:23:14,356 --> 00:23:17,836 Speaker 3: So it would be very reasonable to expect that what 369 00:23:17,876 --> 00:23:20,676 Speaker 3: Tom is saying applies in this case. I'm wondering if 370 00:23:20,716 --> 00:23:24,476 Speaker 3: you can share some examples of the therapeutic benefits that 371 00:23:24,516 --> 00:23:28,076 Speaker 3: can be conferred by psychedelics, in particular people who are 372 00:23:28,196 --> 00:23:31,636 Speaker 3: facing what you've referred to as existential distress. 373 00:23:32,596 --> 00:23:34,676 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the first group of patients I talked to 374 00:23:34,756 --> 00:23:37,716 Speaker 2: were cancer patients, and I interviewed quite a few of them. 375 00:23:38,116 --> 00:23:40,636 Speaker 2: Patrick Mattis is someone I wrote about in detail in 376 00:23:40,716 --> 00:23:43,156 Speaker 2: the book. I never met him, he had died already, 377 00:23:43,516 --> 00:23:45,236 Speaker 2: but I spent a lot of time with his wife 378 00:23:45,236 --> 00:23:47,956 Speaker 2: and his therapist and learning about his story and reading 379 00:23:47,956 --> 00:23:51,316 Speaker 2: his account. And he was a man he was about 380 00:23:51,316 --> 00:23:53,956 Speaker 2: my age at the time, and a journalist like me 381 00:23:54,036 --> 00:23:57,716 Speaker 2: also who had gotten cancer of the bile ducts. And 382 00:23:58,076 --> 00:24:00,756 Speaker 2: his wife noticed the whites of his eyes that turned 383 00:24:00,836 --> 00:24:04,796 Speaker 2: very yellow, and he was given a terminal diagnosis and 384 00:24:05,236 --> 00:24:07,716 Speaker 2: struggled with that for a long time. It was really 385 00:24:07,756 --> 00:24:11,036 Speaker 2: paralyzed by it. He read about this experiment going on 386 00:24:11,036 --> 00:24:15,436 Speaker 2: at NYU. He was in New York, and he decided 387 00:24:15,476 --> 00:24:18,076 Speaker 2: to enroll in this drug trial to see if this 388 00:24:18,156 --> 00:24:21,716 Speaker 2: could help him with his anxiety and depression. His wife 389 00:24:21,716 --> 00:24:25,076 Speaker 2: actually was against it because to her it represented giving up, 390 00:24:25,156 --> 00:24:27,676 Speaker 2: but he had no intention of doing that. He was 391 00:24:27,716 --> 00:24:29,916 Speaker 2: continuing with his at least for a while with his 392 00:24:30,036 --> 00:24:34,556 Speaker 2: chemo after the experience, and he did it, and he 393 00:24:34,716 --> 00:24:37,796 Speaker 2: had a mystical experience. It was very profound. He described 394 00:24:37,796 --> 00:24:42,116 Speaker 2: it in great detail. He explored his body and visited 395 00:24:42,236 --> 00:24:44,876 Speaker 2: his cancer. He saw it, and at one moment he 396 00:24:45,316 --> 00:24:47,876 Speaker 2: climbed a kind of precipice in his mind and he 397 00:24:47,956 --> 00:24:51,676 Speaker 2: looks out and he sees this kind of plane of consciousness, 398 00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:55,156 Speaker 2: you know, a vista in front of him, which really 399 00:24:55,276 --> 00:24:57,916 Speaker 2: he thought was what would happen to him after he 400 00:24:58,036 --> 00:25:02,356 Speaker 2: was after he died, and he had a sense this 401 00:25:02,596 --> 00:25:05,596 Speaker 2: was where he was going. It wasn't frightening. He was 402 00:25:06,196 --> 00:25:08,276 Speaker 2: he would be okay to go there, but he wasn't ready. 403 00:25:08,316 --> 00:25:10,396 Speaker 2: He still wanted more time with his wife, and he 404 00:25:10,476 --> 00:25:13,636 Speaker 2: kind of turned back and he came out of the 405 00:25:13,716 --> 00:25:19,916 Speaker 2: experience a changed man and he had I forget how 406 00:25:19,996 --> 00:25:23,036 Speaker 2: much time it was. It was like another eleven months 407 00:25:23,796 --> 00:25:27,076 Speaker 2: where he was able to have great pleasure in life. 408 00:25:27,196 --> 00:25:29,836 Speaker 2: He would spend his days walking along the Brooklyn Pier, 409 00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:34,356 Speaker 2: checking out new restaurants, had really good periods of time 410 00:25:34,396 --> 00:25:37,516 Speaker 2: with his wife, and at a certain point decided to 411 00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:41,036 Speaker 2: stop his chemo, which was really debilitating, and he wanted 412 00:25:41,036 --> 00:25:43,396 Speaker 2: the clarity that would come with just living out his 413 00:25:43,516 --> 00:25:47,716 Speaker 2: last months without medicine in his body. And he died 414 00:25:48,116 --> 00:25:52,716 Speaker 2: a death of acceptance. People I interviewed described his room 415 00:25:52,756 --> 00:25:55,836 Speaker 2: at Mount Sinai as like having this glow. 416 00:25:55,996 --> 00:25:56,316 Speaker 3: He was. 417 00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:03,556 Speaker 2: Incredibly settled and happy, and all the staff of the 418 00:26:03,556 --> 00:26:06,596 Speaker 2: hospital would want to come by this room to get 419 00:26:06,876 --> 00:26:10,076 Speaker 2: you a taste of this man who was approaching death 420 00:26:10,156 --> 00:26:15,396 Speaker 2: with such equanimity. So it was, you know, it was incredible. 421 00:26:15,396 --> 00:26:17,396 Speaker 2: And at one point his wife sent me a photograph 422 00:26:17,396 --> 00:26:20,076 Speaker 2: of him snapped like three or four days before his death, 423 00:26:20,116 --> 00:26:24,876 Speaker 2: and he was very thin, wearing the hospital smock, and 424 00:26:24,916 --> 00:26:27,956 Speaker 2: he had an oxygen clip in his nose and he 425 00:26:28,076 --> 00:26:32,996 Speaker 2: was beaming. So that you had a profound effect on me. 426 00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:38,236 Speaker 2: And I interviewed a great many patients about their experiences, 427 00:26:38,516 --> 00:26:41,156 Speaker 2: and there were a lot of common denominators. One was 428 00:26:41,196 --> 00:26:43,716 Speaker 2: a kind of a confrontation with death and a confrontation 429 00:26:43,876 --> 00:26:49,676 Speaker 2: with one's cancer, and in most cases it made people 430 00:26:50,396 --> 00:26:52,796 Speaker 2: much more accepting of their death. So I think it 431 00:26:52,836 --> 00:26:58,476 Speaker 2: has a powerful application there for people with life changing diagnoses, 432 00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:00,636 Speaker 2: and obviously not just cancer, I mean someone with an 433 00:27:00,636 --> 00:27:05,316 Speaker 2: als diagnosis or any number of other terminal diagnoses. I 434 00:27:05,476 --> 00:27:07,356 Speaker 2: was kind of sold on it for that use, and 435 00:27:07,396 --> 00:27:09,316 Speaker 2: because we have so little to offer people, you know, 436 00:27:09,356 --> 00:27:11,636 Speaker 2: we give them morphine which dulls their minds, and this 437 00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:16,076 Speaker 2: clarifies their minds, so you know, hopefully this will become common. 438 00:27:16,716 --> 00:27:21,676 Speaker 3: Yeah. You know, Patrick's story reminds me of the most 439 00:27:21,676 --> 00:27:25,356 Speaker 3: stirring powerful part of your book, which is learning that 440 00:27:26,636 --> 00:27:29,116 Speaker 3: many people believe that the insights that they've tapped into 441 00:27:29,276 --> 00:27:33,476 Speaker 3: while they're on these psychedelic trips do represent objective truths 442 00:27:33,516 --> 00:27:36,396 Speaker 3: about the universe, right, this noedic quality, and that you know, 443 00:27:36,396 --> 00:27:39,916 Speaker 3: they're not just dismissing their insights as these zany things 444 00:27:39,956 --> 00:27:42,916 Speaker 3: that they had while they were high. They see their 445 00:27:42,956 --> 00:27:47,436 Speaker 3: experience as as this kind of window into some more 446 00:27:47,516 --> 00:27:50,956 Speaker 3: accurate view of reality. You know, take Patrick who believes 447 00:27:50,956 --> 00:27:54,356 Speaker 3: that he's confronted what his afterlife will look like, and 448 00:27:54,636 --> 00:28:00,396 Speaker 3: to me, it raises some very interesting philosophical and moral questions. 449 00:28:01,076 --> 00:28:03,756 Speaker 2: I struggle with that, and I asked some of the 450 00:28:03,796 --> 00:28:07,956 Speaker 2: researchers about this, and I got a range of answers. 451 00:28:08,036 --> 00:28:10,436 Speaker 2: I mean, one is, you know, well, we don't really 452 00:28:10,476 --> 00:28:14,596 Speaker 2: know what happens after someone dies, and it's not for 453 00:28:14,676 --> 00:28:17,396 Speaker 2: us to tell our patients what happens after someone dies. 454 00:28:18,076 --> 00:28:19,836 Speaker 2: But I would say, you know, well, maybe what you're 455 00:28:19,876 --> 00:28:23,236 Speaker 2: administering is a delusion to people. And I remember one 456 00:28:23,276 --> 00:28:26,076 Speaker 2: researcher said, hey, if it works, who cares it? Took 457 00:28:26,076 --> 00:28:27,756 Speaker 2: a purely pragmatic view. 458 00:28:28,076 --> 00:28:29,356 Speaker 3: That's my camp for what it's worth. 459 00:28:29,676 --> 00:28:29,916 Speaker 2: Really. 460 00:28:30,036 --> 00:28:33,356 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, As someone who studies cognitive science and believes 461 00:28:33,516 --> 00:28:35,436 Speaker 3: I guess I have a very reductionist view of life. 462 00:28:35,476 --> 00:28:37,396 Speaker 3: But I am of the mind that all we are 463 00:28:37,476 --> 00:28:40,636 Speaker 3: are subjective states, and so in the throes of a 464 00:28:40,716 --> 00:28:44,196 Speaker 3: terminal illness, if you can be brought relief by believing 465 00:28:44,196 --> 00:28:48,436 Speaker 3: the afterlife is one thing, great, you've reduced suffering. But again, 466 00:28:48,476 --> 00:28:52,316 Speaker 3: not everybody has my exceedingly reductionist view of human existence. 467 00:28:52,756 --> 00:28:55,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's something that needs to be explored. 468 00:28:55,996 --> 00:28:58,516 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that there are many ethical issues 469 00:28:58,596 --> 00:29:03,116 Speaker 2: raised by psychedelics, but it's also important to understand that 470 00:29:03,436 --> 00:29:06,996 Speaker 2: it's not the researchers that are planting this image of 471 00:29:07,076 --> 00:29:11,076 Speaker 2: the afterlife, and it's not the pill. The pill is 472 00:29:11,316 --> 00:29:16,836 Speaker 2: just is a catalyst for thoughts and fantasies and images. 473 00:29:17,556 --> 00:29:21,636 Speaker 2: They're not priming you to have an afterlife experience. They 474 00:29:21,716 --> 00:29:23,276 Speaker 2: may be priming you a little bit to have a 475 00:29:23,316 --> 00:29:26,596 Speaker 2: mystical experience in the way they prepare you. I mean 476 00:29:26,596 --> 00:29:29,916 Speaker 2: that needs to be looked at. But everything that happens 477 00:29:30,316 --> 00:29:33,796 Speaker 2: on a psychedelic experience is the product of your mind 478 00:29:34,836 --> 00:29:38,796 Speaker 2: and to some extent, your expectations and your setting. I mean, 479 00:29:38,796 --> 00:29:40,316 Speaker 2: we know about set and setting. 480 00:29:40,116 --> 00:29:41,796 Speaker 3: Very suggestible, yeah. 481 00:29:41,636 --> 00:29:46,716 Speaker 2: Very suggestible, But it's really your creation. This isn't mind control. 482 00:29:47,476 --> 00:29:50,756 Speaker 2: So if that's where somebody's mind takes them and that's 483 00:29:50,756 --> 00:29:53,436 Speaker 2: a helpful place, it's hard to argue with that. I mean, 484 00:29:53,596 --> 00:29:55,956 Speaker 2: I mean, I tend to agree with you, but you know, 485 00:29:56,076 --> 00:29:59,076 Speaker 2: I mean people might have ethical qualms about that, But 486 00:29:59,196 --> 00:30:02,556 Speaker 2: I come back to the fact that there's no information 487 00:30:02,716 --> 00:30:08,276 Speaker 2: in the molecule, right, It's all what your mind is creating. 488 00:30:09,276 --> 00:30:10,356 Speaker 2: It's subjective states. 489 00:30:10,716 --> 00:30:15,036 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's about maybe a reframing for skeptics or people 490 00:30:15,036 --> 00:30:17,796 Speaker 3: who might have some concerns, is that it is essentially 491 00:30:17,836 --> 00:30:21,676 Speaker 3: a creative exploration into the types of things that could 492 00:30:21,716 --> 00:30:26,756 Speaker 3: reassure an individual person. Right, It's like, yeah, what would 493 00:30:26,796 --> 00:30:30,556 Speaker 3: pacify Patrick in this very specific situation and his mind 494 00:30:30,996 --> 00:30:31,796 Speaker 3: engages with that. 495 00:30:32,436 --> 00:30:36,156 Speaker 2: You know what's interesting there is you're healing yourself, right, 496 00:30:36,196 --> 00:30:38,836 Speaker 2: I mean, and in fact, that is a large part 497 00:30:38,916 --> 00:30:41,276 Speaker 2: what happens. I mean, these are this is a very 498 00:30:41,316 --> 00:30:44,796 Speaker 2: non interventionist therapy. The therapists say nothing during the experience 499 00:30:44,876 --> 00:30:46,956 Speaker 2: except would you like a glass of water or a 500 00:30:46,996 --> 00:30:50,156 Speaker 2: snack or need to go to the bathroom. It really 501 00:30:50,196 --> 00:30:53,036 Speaker 2: they let your mind go where your mind wants to go. 502 00:30:53,636 --> 00:30:57,596 Speaker 2: It is a kind of self exploration, self healing, and 503 00:30:58,276 --> 00:31:01,396 Speaker 2: you know, there's so much more we need to learn 504 00:31:01,436 --> 00:31:03,316 Speaker 2: about it. 505 00:31:02,556 --> 00:31:05,276 Speaker 3: For scaredy cats like me, Michael, who will almost certainly 506 00:31:05,596 --> 00:31:09,036 Speaker 3: never be willing to do a psychedelic trip. Are there 507 00:31:09,156 --> 00:31:12,596 Speaker 3: ways of approximating the effects of psychedelics through other means? 508 00:31:13,276 --> 00:31:16,716 Speaker 2: Yes? There are. The most interesting one I came across 509 00:31:16,836 --> 00:31:21,116 Speaker 2: is something called holotropic breath work. This was devised by 510 00:31:21,196 --> 00:31:23,676 Speaker 2: Stan Groff, who was a psychiatrist who was doing a 511 00:31:23,716 --> 00:31:27,076 Speaker 2: lot of psychedelic therapy in the sixties, and once the 512 00:31:27,156 --> 00:31:29,476 Speaker 2: drugs were made illegal, he wanted to find a legal 513 00:31:29,476 --> 00:31:31,476 Speaker 2: way to get the same results because he was getting 514 00:31:31,476 --> 00:31:36,316 Speaker 2: amazing results with his patients, and borrowing from many different traditions, 515 00:31:36,356 --> 00:31:40,796 Speaker 2: including yogic breathing techniques, he came up with this way 516 00:31:41,156 --> 00:31:45,836 Speaker 2: of inducing a trance state that is very much like psychedelics. 517 00:31:45,996 --> 00:31:49,196 Speaker 2: I did it once, and you basically have this pattern 518 00:31:49,236 --> 00:31:53,516 Speaker 2: of breathing that I think hyperventilates you. You're breathing very 519 00:31:53,516 --> 00:31:57,716 Speaker 2: fast and exhaling more than you're inhaling, and they're playing 520 00:31:57,876 --> 00:32:02,236 Speaker 2: very loud, rhythmic drumming, and after a certain amount of time, 521 00:32:02,356 --> 00:32:05,436 Speaker 2: a few minutes, you enter into this state where you 522 00:32:05,676 --> 00:32:09,476 Speaker 2: can do that breathing without trying to. You're on your back, 523 00:32:09,516 --> 00:32:12,276 Speaker 2: but you're dancing, all your limbs are moving. It's the 524 00:32:12,356 --> 00:32:15,916 Speaker 2: strangest thing that you could induce this trance and you 525 00:32:16,076 --> 00:32:19,716 Speaker 2: have the kind of imagery that you do on psychedelic experience. 526 00:32:19,836 --> 00:32:21,756 Speaker 2: And I did it, and I felt like I'd run 527 00:32:21,756 --> 00:32:23,636 Speaker 2: a marathon when it was over. It was a very 528 00:32:23,636 --> 00:32:28,716 Speaker 2: intense experience. No drugs involved, whatsoever, What is it doing 529 00:32:28,796 --> 00:32:30,796 Speaker 2: in the brain. I think it may in fact be 530 00:32:30,876 --> 00:32:33,316 Speaker 2: doing the same thing to the default mode network, because 531 00:32:33,356 --> 00:32:37,636 Speaker 2: you're probably starving the brain of oxygen. But yes, there 532 00:32:37,676 --> 00:32:40,876 Speaker 2: are non pharmacological ways to get similar effects. 533 00:32:41,836 --> 00:32:44,756 Speaker 3: I do wonder whether we as humans would be more 534 00:32:44,836 --> 00:32:49,716 Speaker 3: tolerant of non pharmacological states that actually rival the psychedelic 535 00:32:49,756 --> 00:32:52,916 Speaker 3: ones if they're negative, if they're not drug induced, Like 536 00:32:52,956 --> 00:32:56,636 Speaker 3: there's somehow this bias against the drug induced bad trip. 537 00:32:56,876 --> 00:32:58,996 Speaker 3: But if I were to achieve that psychological state through 538 00:32:59,036 --> 00:33:01,356 Speaker 3: natural means, somehow, I'm more okay with the idea of 539 00:33:01,716 --> 00:33:03,756 Speaker 3: it going sour or being scary. 540 00:33:03,996 --> 00:33:07,596 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know, we have a prejudice against exogenous drugs, 541 00:33:07,636 --> 00:33:10,716 Speaker 2: but there are ways to rug yourself without them, and 542 00:33:11,396 --> 00:33:14,596 Speaker 2: this is one. There may be risks though to doing that. 543 00:33:14,756 --> 00:33:17,076 Speaker 2: We haven't talked about risk, but one of the really 544 00:33:17,156 --> 00:33:21,276 Speaker 2: striking things about the classical psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin 545 00:33:21,316 --> 00:33:24,396 Speaker 2: and DMT is that there is no lethal dose. You 546 00:33:24,436 --> 00:33:27,716 Speaker 2: can't overdose on these drugs, and you can overdose on 547 00:33:27,756 --> 00:33:30,236 Speaker 2: all sorts of over the counter drugs. There is no 548 00:33:30,356 --> 00:33:32,516 Speaker 2: risk of addiction either. I mean, I'm not trying to 549 00:33:32,556 --> 00:33:34,956 Speaker 2: sell you on anything maya oh, nor. 550 00:33:34,916 --> 00:33:37,116 Speaker 3: You haven't sold me on anything. I'm still not going 551 00:33:37,156 --> 00:33:37,556 Speaker 3: to do it. 552 00:33:38,716 --> 00:33:41,876 Speaker 2: But the risks, such as they are are. There are 553 00:33:41,956 --> 00:33:46,076 Speaker 2: psychological risks. People do get into psychological trouble, especially when 554 00:33:46,076 --> 00:33:48,876 Speaker 2: they don't pay enough attention to set and setting, and 555 00:33:48,916 --> 00:33:50,836 Speaker 2: they don't do it with a guide, and they don't 556 00:33:50,876 --> 00:33:54,076 Speaker 2: do it in a safe environment. It can be you know, 557 00:33:54,156 --> 00:33:57,156 Speaker 2: it can be terrifying, and so you do have to 558 00:33:57,236 --> 00:33:59,956 Speaker 2: keep that in mind. But when I you know, I 559 00:34:00,396 --> 00:34:02,596 Speaker 2: came to it late and I did my due diligence. 560 00:34:02,636 --> 00:34:04,956 Speaker 2: I was not a twenty year old, you know, with 561 00:34:05,436 --> 00:34:06,476 Speaker 2: no proper sense of. 562 00:34:06,676 --> 00:34:08,676 Speaker 3: You're a whole freaking book on it. No one's going 563 00:34:08,716 --> 00:34:10,276 Speaker 3: to be able to meet with you on that front 564 00:34:10,316 --> 00:34:12,036 Speaker 3: in terms of doing your due diligence. 565 00:34:12,236 --> 00:34:14,036 Speaker 2: Well, but I wanted to make sure it was safe, 566 00:34:14,076 --> 00:34:16,396 Speaker 2: and I really did look at all the research and 567 00:34:16,956 --> 00:34:20,556 Speaker 2: convince myself this wasn't a stupid or irresponsible thing to do. 568 00:34:21,396 --> 00:34:24,196 Speaker 2: There are legal risks we should point out. Unless you're 569 00:34:24,236 --> 00:34:26,396 Speaker 2: in a drug trial, you know, you go to a 570 00:34:26,476 --> 00:34:31,996 Speaker 2: university and enter. But aside from that, I convinced myself 571 00:34:32,036 --> 00:34:34,716 Speaker 2: that the benefits would probably outweigh the risks, and I 572 00:34:34,756 --> 00:34:36,276 Speaker 2: certainly feel that way having done it. 573 00:34:37,036 --> 00:34:40,356 Speaker 3: I'd love to ask you a more personal question about 574 00:34:40,356 --> 00:34:44,076 Speaker 3: the long term impact psychedelics have had on your own life. 575 00:34:44,236 --> 00:34:47,756 Speaker 3: What are some enduring changes you've had in your perspective 576 00:34:48,556 --> 00:34:50,516 Speaker 3: or your personality ever since? 577 00:34:51,716 --> 00:34:54,436 Speaker 2: You know. I think the big thing is I acquired 578 00:34:54,836 --> 00:34:58,316 Speaker 2: and it was during that episode of ego dissolution or 579 00:34:58,516 --> 00:35:01,916 Speaker 2: you know, dissolution of self that I described a little 580 00:35:01,916 --> 00:35:06,356 Speaker 2: more perspective on my ego or self. I identified with it. 581 00:35:06,476 --> 00:35:10,516 Speaker 2: I thought I was that person, that voice, and I've 582 00:35:10,556 --> 00:35:13,916 Speaker 2: come to see that it's one voice among several in 583 00:35:13,996 --> 00:35:16,596 Speaker 2: my mind, and that I don't necessarily have to listen 584 00:35:16,636 --> 00:35:19,316 Speaker 2: to it, and that sometimes I can recognize that my 585 00:35:20,156 --> 00:35:23,236 Speaker 2: ego is up to his old tricks and he's being 586 00:35:23,316 --> 00:35:27,836 Speaker 2: hypercritical or needlessly worrying, and I can kind of get 587 00:35:27,836 --> 00:35:30,196 Speaker 2: some distance on it. And I find that very useful. 588 00:35:30,396 --> 00:35:33,916 Speaker 2: It's exactly the kind of insight you might or practice 589 00:35:33,956 --> 00:35:37,556 Speaker 2: you might get out of conventional psychotherapy. But I got 590 00:35:37,556 --> 00:35:39,916 Speaker 2: it in the course of an afternoon, you know, and 591 00:35:40,316 --> 00:35:43,036 Speaker 2: that was very useful. If you ask my wife, she 592 00:35:43,036 --> 00:35:45,556 Speaker 2: would tell you that the experiences have made me more open, 593 00:35:45,836 --> 00:35:49,076 Speaker 2: more emotionally available things like that. I'm not sure I can, 594 00:35:49,316 --> 00:35:52,836 Speaker 2: you know, I necessarily see that, but it has opened 595 00:35:52,916 --> 00:35:57,516 Speaker 2: up this space of curiosity about myself and self exploration, 596 00:35:58,316 --> 00:36:00,636 Speaker 2: and I found it very useful. I mean every time 597 00:36:00,676 --> 00:36:03,156 Speaker 2: I've done it, you know, I learned things about myself 598 00:36:03,156 --> 00:36:06,876 Speaker 2: I didn't know before, and that's incredibly valuable, and especially 599 00:36:06,916 --> 00:36:09,956 Speaker 2: at my age. I'm in my sixties. Now you sort 600 00:36:09,956 --> 00:36:13,956 Speaker 2: of think that that process, you know, would have slowed 601 00:36:14,036 --> 00:36:16,796 Speaker 2: or ended, but not at all. It's actually been intensified 602 00:36:16,796 --> 00:36:17,116 Speaker 2: by this. 603 00:36:17,796 --> 00:36:20,716 Speaker 3: Okay, now you're selling me a little bit in the 604 00:36:20,796 --> 00:36:25,876 Speaker 3: last minute, Folks. He gets me while I'm weak in vulnerable. No, 605 00:36:26,036 --> 00:36:27,916 Speaker 3: this is awesome. Thank you so much, Michael. 606 00:36:28,036 --> 00:36:30,596 Speaker 2: Oh my pleasure. I really enjoyed talking to you. I 607 00:36:30,596 --> 00:36:32,116 Speaker 2: hope we can do this in person next time. 608 00:36:50,356 --> 00:36:53,196 Speaker 3: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written and executive 609 00:36:53,236 --> 00:36:56,996 Speaker 3: produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes 610 00:36:57,076 --> 00:37:00,876 Speaker 3: Tyler Green, our senior producer, Jen Guerra, our senior editor, 611 00:37:01,236 --> 00:37:05,316 Speaker 3: Ben Holliday, our sound engineer, Emily Rosstek our producer, and 612 00:37:05,436 --> 00:37:09,796 Speaker 3: Neil LaBelle our executive producer. Luis Scara wrote a theme song, 613 00:37:09,956 --> 00:37:13,476 Speaker 3: and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change 614 00:37:13,516 --> 00:37:16,436 Speaker 3: of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big 615 00:37:16,436 --> 00:37:20,636 Speaker 3: thanks to everyone there, including Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, Lee 616 00:37:20,676 --> 00:37:24,756 Speaker 3: tal Mallatt and Heather Fame and of course a very 617 00:37:24,796 --> 00:37:28,196 Speaker 3: special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight 618 00:37:28,276 --> 00:37:32,116 Speaker 3: Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Mayah Schunker. See 619 00:37:32,116 --> 00:37:32,716 Speaker 3: you next week. 620 00:37:39,716 --> 00:37:41,876 Speaker 2: So how does this sound? I think I'm on the 621 00:37:41,996 --> 00:37:47,076 Speaker 2: proper microphone. Why are the three legs of this microphone 622 00:37:47,076 --> 00:37:47,916 Speaker 2: not the same length. 623 00:37:49,116 --> 00:37:52,076 Speaker 3: We like to introduce logic puzzles into the mic setup, Michael, 624 00:37:52,236 --> 00:37:54,436 Speaker 3: So if you can figure out the three leg problem, 625 00:37:54,476 --> 00:37:56,836 Speaker 3: that's actually part of the challenge. Oh god, this is 626 00:37:56,876 --> 00:37:58,636 Speaker 3: a admissions ticket to the interview.