1 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: Y'all know when you were maybe a new mom, or 2 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: had a new job, or whatever was going on in 3 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: your life where you felt like you were the only 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 1: person that had experienced something or felt a certain way, 5 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: And when you got to the right person who maybe 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: had a similar story, who felt like you did, it 7 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: just helped you somehow, even if that person was a stranger, 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: just to know you weren't alone, you weren't crazy. That's 9 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: how I feel when I have the opportunity to sit 10 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: and talk with open my heart to people that I 11 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: love and admire and trust, it just helps me, not 12 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: just in my career, but every facet of my life. 13 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: So tonight we have a very special Zone seven. This 14 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: is for those first responders that have that case or 15 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: five or twenty that stay with them, and tonight I'm 16 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: joined by some of the most stellar people that I know. 17 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Sheelah, thanks Mike, thanks for. 18 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 3: Having us, thanks for letting me be here. 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: I want to thank them all for being here and 20 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: being a part of my Zone seven and to share 21 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: the cases that haunt them. Y'all welcome and thank you 22 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 1: so much. This came about because Joe Scott and Joe 23 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: Jackalone and I did a session at the Hamptons who 24 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: done it on this very topic. And here's what happened 25 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: to me. I'm sitting in the middle of those two 26 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: fabulous men, and I start telling my story and I 27 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: think I got as far as It was a Monday, 28 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: and we arrived at thirty seven eighty three Adamsville Drive, 29 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: and I could see in my peripheral Joe Scott turn 30 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: and look at me. And that's when it dawned on me. 31 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: I'm telling a story that he was a part of. 32 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: This has got to be one of the cases that 33 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: haunts him too. But y'all, I was already in it then, 34 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: and I thought, man, I'm giving him double extra memories, 35 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: extra trauma. But I went on with it because it 36 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: is a case that has stayed with me since the 37 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: day it happened. And basically what happened in this scenario 38 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: is we had three adults and four children murdered at 39 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: the same time in the same house, in the same family. 40 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: The children were age is I think between nine and eleven. 41 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: There was a soul survivor, and that was the eleven 42 00:02:54,080 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: year old boy that played dead for hours. He was 43 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: confident he could run and try to go get some help, 44 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: and he ran to a neighbor's house. My memory, when 45 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: it flashes like those polaroids, it just my memory is 46 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: there was just bodies everywhere, There was blood everywhere. It 47 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: was horrible. The shooter killed himself at the scene. So 48 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: there was never going to be a trial. There was 49 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: never going to be any justice. There was never going 50 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: to be any answers for anybody. And Grandmama slashed mama, 51 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: as the media will do, showed up at the house, 52 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: started filming from way behind the yellow tape said we 53 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: don't know what all's going on, but it was like 54 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: ambulance and fire and police. And then of course the 55 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: medical examiner shows up and she's watching it, so she 56 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: shows up nearly in full cardiac arrest. So again, as 57 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: I'm telling this story, at one point, I just leaned 58 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: over and touched Joe Scott on the arm because I 59 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: knew I knew what I was doing to him. And 60 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: then he had to go next like he's going to 61 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: do tonight and share. But again, here's what's important when 62 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: we tell these stories. Joe Scott's going to say something 63 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,239 Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna be like, oh, I remember that 64 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: that was tough, but we were there together. It's like 65 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: a battle buddy. And then Sarage is going to tell 66 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: a story, and then Lisa's going to tell a story, 67 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: and then it kind of starts to have this debriefing 68 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: almost like group therapy. And so we may tell some jokes, 69 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: we may say some things a little off color, but 70 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: again that's how we protect ourselves. Since I started with him, 71 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to pass it off to Joe Scott Morgan. 72 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: Y'all know him as the host of Body Bags with 73 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan. He's a former death investigator. He's a 74 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: forensic professor at Jacksonville State University in Alabama, and he's 75 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: an author. 76 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Mac. It's great to be here, and 77 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 2: it's great to be able to to, you know, kind 78 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 2: of chat about these issues. And Lord, I wish, you know, 79 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 2: looking back over time, I wish that they had provided 80 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 2: something to everyone in my field that would have helped us. 81 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: And for those of you that don't know, the last 82 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: time I left the Medical Examiner's office where I was 83 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: a senior investigator, was in the back of an ambulance, 84 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 2: and interestingly enough, I was loaded into the ambulance on 85 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 2: the same ramp that we off loaded bodies off of. 86 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: And a little side note, I was sitting at my 87 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 2: desk I just had I just had lunch with one 88 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: of my dearest friends in the world, who is now 89 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 2: the chief of police for the Marta Police Department in Atlanta. 90 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 2: MARTA's the rapid transit system in Atlanta. And we've been 91 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: across way and had had an enjoyable lunch, you know, 92 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 2: kind of talked about our current status and life, wife, 93 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 2: kids and all this sort of thing. And when I 94 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 2: got back to the office, I sat down in my 95 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: little cubicle and all of a sudden, the room started spinning. 96 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: I remember calling out, go God, and I kind of, 97 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 2: you know, came out of my chair, couldn't breathe. I 98 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: really thought I was having a heart attack. And you know, 99 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,119 Speaker 2: I had my colleagues that were working at that time 100 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: kind of surround me, and they went on the loudspeaker 101 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: and said, we need a doctor and the last thing 102 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: you want standing over you if you're in any kind 103 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 2: of physical distress at all as a forensic pathologist. And 104 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 2: I had like three all gathered around me, and I 105 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: was thinking, Lord, don't let this be the last thing 106 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 2: I see because I was sick to my back teeth 107 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 2: of them. I was sick to my back teeth of 108 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 2: my office. I had had all that I could stand in. 109 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 2: The best sound I ever heard was an ambulance and 110 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 2: it hauled me away. And you know, it was a 111 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 2: long journey to that point, a twenty plus your career 112 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 2: of seeing nothing but death day in and day out. 113 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: And people, I think they they just kind of expect 114 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: that you deal with it somehow, and they don't realize 115 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 2: that people in my field, we're flesh and blood, we're human. 116 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 2: And I've come to the conclusion over the years that 117 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 2: it's not acceptable to be in that field for as 118 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: long as I was in, and many people have made 119 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: a long career out of it. But after about seven years, 120 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 2: that's pretty much all you can take. Anything beyond that 121 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: is very self destructive, you know. Following that, I was 122 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: diagnosed with PTSD as I lay, you know, in a 123 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: hospital bed in Piedmont Hospital in Atlanta, and I'll never 124 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: forget my wife, Kim Mack you and over very well. 125 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: We were pregnant with our son, who wound up dying 126 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: not too long after he was born, and I was 127 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: like a child, I really was. I was just feeble 128 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 2: because I'd had several events leading up to that last 129 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: event where I thought I was having a heart attack 130 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: and it was panic attacks, is what it was. And 131 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: they told me, your heart's healthy. You don't need a 132 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: cardiology and a psychiatrist. And my wife, you know, struggling 133 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: with everything we were struggling with, you know, went to 134 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: the county at that point in time, and you know, 135 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 2: just begged our office administrators and everybody else please help 136 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: us because I'd given a good part of my life 137 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 2: to this place. And what it finally came down to 138 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: was the people that administered Fulton County government said, yeah, 139 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 2: he might be diagnosed with PTSD, but it's too easy 140 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: to fake it. And so I had to get myself healthy. 141 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 2: I did everything that I could and try to shed 142 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 2: shed all of these cases and in the memories and 143 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 2: all this sort of things like Adamsville back and you 144 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 2: know the horror that you see when you walk into 145 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 2: one of these scenes and you can't shed it, you 146 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 2: can't get rid of it. I still teach it police Capiny. 147 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: I do it three times a year. It's something I'm 148 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 2: very proud of. I talked about it all the time. 149 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: And one of the things that I leave with I 150 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: leave with the cadets is that you're given This is 151 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 2: kind of a metaphor, but you're given. Just imagine given 152 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 2: a big burlap sack when you start working in the field, 153 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 2: and that for every death that you work, you put 154 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 2: a one pound stone in it. You carry it on 155 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 2: your back the entire time. And it doesn't have to 156 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 2: be the most horrible homicide. It's just every death. It's 157 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 2: that essence of death that you see in the medical 158 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: examiner's office. There's no rescuing little kids, there's no breaking 159 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: up domestic disputes. It's all death, day in and day out. 160 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: And I tell them that in police work as well. 161 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 2: You carry the stone on your back for years and years, 162 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: and it's really hard, you know, to put that bag down. 163 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: You're not really allowed because even if you do put 164 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 2: it down, you'll just be given another back. And lots 165 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 2: of people can't identify with that, they don't understand it. 166 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: But you're burying some of the burdens of the real world. 167 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: You know, the people that live and die day in 168 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 2: and day out. You see them in the worst set 169 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: of circumstances, and certainly their loved ones. So when you 170 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 2: had mentioned Adamsville, yeah, I was there and I worked 171 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 2: that scene and it was horrible and it was bloody 172 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: and it was brutal, but you couldn't really take the 173 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 2: measure of it at that moment in time. You know, 174 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: looking back now, you know I would I would like 175 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 2: to go back and you know, and maybe handled it different. 176 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 2: I wish I had the tools to dealt with it then, 177 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: because I was just one of these big old country boys. 178 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 2: You know that I knew that I could do anything. 179 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 2: There was no task that you could give me and 180 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 2: I would not survive it. I was just gonna put 181 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 2: my shoulder to the stone and day in and dowt. 182 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 2: You go out and do the job, and no matter 183 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 2: what you see as a matter of fact, and on 184 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: some levels you wear it as a badge of pride, 185 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 2: kind of quietly. It's like you, you know, you think 186 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 2: you have it tough, you think you have in whatever 187 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: your job is. Well, let me tell you what I 188 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: saw today. And most people, you know, they have no 189 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: response to it, except for one person. At one point 190 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 2: in time when I wrote my memoir and I was 191 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 2: eating lunch, this guy was really wealthy. I was with 192 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 2: my uncle. It is his boss, actually, and he loved 193 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 2: to talk to authors. This guy's a multi millionaire. And 194 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 2: he said, if your nephew's come to town, you know, 195 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: hav inghim, I'm going to buy him lunch and we'll go. 196 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 2: And we were sitting there, you know, across the table 197 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 2: from one another in New Orleans at a restaurant and 198 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 2: he said, so, why'd you write your memoir? And I 199 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 2: looked at him and I said, because I was angry. 200 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 2: He said, what the hell were you angry about? I said, 201 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 2: I was angry at death. I was angry at the 202 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 2: job that I had done. And he leans in across 203 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 2: the table and he looks at me and says, nobody 204 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: made you do it. And it was at that point 205 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 2: that I was considering driving that fork through his forehead 206 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: next to my plate. But you know, there was truth 207 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: in that. Sure, there was truth in it. I mean, 208 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: I made you know. I believe in free will, and 209 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 2: I was a creature of free will when I started, 210 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 2: when I was very young. And you know, it's one 211 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 2: of these things where you choose to be in that 212 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 2: environment for as long as you can stand it, or 213 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 2: as long as your body can stand it. Or your mind, 214 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 2: and you sally forth after that. 215 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: I don't think people understand too. When you first start 216 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: these jobs, you think, man, this is going to be 217 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: so exciting. It's so much better than any of the 218 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: jobs my friends have. And to a large degree that's true. 219 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: I mean, you're on the dance floor of the big show, 220 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: there's no doubt about it, and everybody wants to hear 221 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: your stories. 222 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 4: So Sarge. 223 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: Joseph Jackaloe, retired NYPD sergeant, an author, host of True Crime, 224 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: was Sarge an adjunct professor at John Jay College of 225 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: Criminal Justice. Why don't you take it from there? 226 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, we used to call it the front row seat 227 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 4: to the greatest show on Earth, right, just like the circus. Yes, 228 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 4: and yeah, when you're younger you handle things differently. I 229 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 4: mean I started out as a young cop in nineteen 230 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 4: ninety two in New York City and when crime was 231 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 4: still bent out of control, and I was assigned to 232 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 4: the Bronx. And for those that don't realize that there's 233 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 4: five counties that make up New York City, I know, 234 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 4: people think New York City has just Manhattan. There's actually 235 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 4: five Borrows. And I was working up in the Bronx 236 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 4: and you know, by nineteen ninety four, two years into 237 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 4: my career, now you know, we were at all time 238 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 4: highs and homicides, dealing you know, in the daily in 239 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 4: and out of that stuff as patrol cop responding to 240 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,719 Speaker 4: these things. And you know, when you're young, you don't realize, 241 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 4: you know, what you're really going through at that time. 242 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 4: And and then in law enforcement and just like every 243 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 4: other job, the dirty little secret is there is no 244 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 4: help for anybody. You could spend twenty thirty years and 245 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 4: it's there's no really where you can turn. There's nothing 246 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 4: you could do. And unfortunately, some people choose the bottle, 247 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 4: some people choose other things, and it's just you know, 248 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 4: and that's just how it goes. 249 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 2: Uh. 250 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 4: You know, you have to try to balance your work life, 251 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 4: in your in your personal life. And unfortunately sometimes that 252 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 4: I saw a lot of guys, you know, their their 253 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 4: work life take over their personal life and and marriages 254 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 4: and divorce and and everything else that goes along. And 255 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 4: I didn't want to be, you know, involved in that 256 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 4: per se, so I try to stay away from all 257 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 4: that stuff. But you get kind of pulled into the 258 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 4: daily routine of police work. And when I got promoted 259 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 4: the sergeant. It wasn't much better. I got sent to 260 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 4: the Seven three Priests again Roundsville, which was a one 261 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 4: square mile precinct where you deal about eighty ninety homicides 262 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 4: a year in one square mile, So you're stacking bodies 263 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 4: up on top of these things. And then you know, 264 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 4: finally making into the detective squad as a supervisor and 265 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 4: working my way up there and ended up in the 266 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 4: cole case squad, where every case on your desk or 267 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 4: the desk that your detectives work, every case is a 268 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 4: dead person, every person's a homicide, and every case is 269 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 4: a family member. I mean, you'd walk into work and 270 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 4: you'd see your phone blinking and you knew, you know, 271 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 4: there was a family member. It was going to be 272 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 4: demanding action on a case or requesting information on how 273 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 4: things were going. We had eight thousand open homicides in 274 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 4: the Bronx alone, dating back only into the eighties at 275 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 4: the time, so you dealt with a huge work volume. 276 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 4: But it's like everything else, you had these moments in 277 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 4: time that seemed to stick with you. You know, people's faces, 278 00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 4: the children's specifically, the smells, the sounds of the screams 279 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 4: of the family members of the mothers. Those are the 280 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 4: things that you don't get over. And you'll hear those 281 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 4: things or smell those things the rest of your life. 282 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 4: And listen, the general public doesn't understand. Some just don't 283 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 4: understand because they don't understand the dynamics, and the other 284 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 4: half doesn't care. And the issue that you're dealing with 285 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 4: is you are unfortunately responsible for your own mental health care. 286 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 4: And it's just like you know, people and people always answer, 287 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 4: what do you mean you can't go see somebody, what 288 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 4: do you mean you can't talk to Well, if you 289 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 4: go to if you're in law enforcement and you tell 290 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 4: somebody that you're having problems, they'll take away your guns. 291 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 4: They'll put you through all kinds of you know, even 292 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 4: more stressed than you're already under. And you take away 293 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 4: people's guns, you take away their livelihood, their careers, the 294 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 4: chance to make overtime and pay the bills. So these 295 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 4: men and women who really struggle, you know, just keep 296 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 4: their mouths shutting and unfortunately and end up killing themselves. 297 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 4: I mean, one year, I think we had seventeen cops 298 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 4: I think that was the record in one year that 299 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 4: had committed suicide. And you know, the job always says, well, 300 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 4: we need to do better, right and this okay, the 301 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 4: media is out, okay, good, all right, everybody back to work. 302 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 4: It's just one of those things. But you come across 303 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 4: a case one time and it just kind of changes you. 304 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 4: And it was for me. It was this double homicide 305 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 4: of these two young boys. The case was from nineteen 306 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 4: eighty five. I remember the date. It was February twenty ath, 307 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 4: nineteen eighty five it happened. Of course, I wasn't even 308 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 4: working back then, but this isn't the cold case squad. 309 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 4: And you could walk into a room, a storage room 310 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,479 Speaker 4: that had old homicides, and you could look at the 311 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 4: case files and you could tell the type of homicide. 312 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 4: It was just by the size of the case files. 313 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 4: When you're looking at the eighties and ninety you saw 314 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 4: one that was about a quarter inch thick, you knew 315 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 4: that was either a drug homicide or a gang homicide. 316 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 4: You know, no white witnesses, nobody wanted to come forward, 317 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 4: no information, no DNA and remember no phone records either 318 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 4: or surveillance video in the day, so it was just 319 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 4: that and you would just kind of skip over those things. 320 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 4: But every now and then you find this box or 321 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 4: two boxes of cases, and there's one case and you 322 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 4: see yourself, my god, this one. There's a lot of 323 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,360 Speaker 4: work in here. Let's go pick this one apart. And 324 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 4: it's like one of those things where you say, you 325 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 4: see who the victims are and you're drawn to it 326 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 4: because you see this six year old whose name was 327 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 4: Charles Taylor, and his brother he was step brother. His 328 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 4: name was Stephen Mason. He was eight, brutally stabbed to death. 329 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 4: They were found in two thousand Valentine Avenue. They were 330 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 4: on their way to school. They never made it to school, 331 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 4: and they were found at the bottom of the staircase 332 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 4: of the trash compacted room and the bodies were stacked 333 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 4: upon one another. And we had the fortunate experience that 334 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 4: the Bronx at the time had secured a grant and 335 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 4: they were able to videotape crime scenes back then, so 336 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 4: we were able to get the video from that crime 337 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 4: scene that day. So it's not like the same thing 338 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 4: as being there, but you get a chance in living 339 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 4: color to see what it's like. And it's quite the 340 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 4: advantage for the cold case squad to be able to 341 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 4: actually watch the video of a crime scene when you 342 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 4: don't have that ability just about in every other case. 343 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 4: And we worked very hard on that case, and like 344 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 4: everything else, we know who the suspect is. There was 345 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 4: just every turn we made we were hit with an obstacle. 346 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 4: And I always tell people don't give up, and we 347 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 4: didn't give up. Because here it is now, I've been 348 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 4: retired twelve years and I still look at this case. 349 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 4: The suspect who's still out there, I still you know, 350 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 4: google him every now and then to see where he's living, 351 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 4: if he's living, just to go look through some of 352 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 4: these things, because the issue that comes down to is 353 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 4: when people choose murder as a reason, you know, to 354 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 4: solve their problems, they sit in motion, these wheels that 355 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 4: just can't be stopped in certain people in certain times. 356 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 4: And I always said the Cold Case Squad were a 357 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 4: group of cops that just like that you put them 358 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 4: in motion, they just they just continue to stay in motion, 359 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 4: just like inertia. And we tried to find every piece 360 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 4: of evidence that was recorded, and we couldn't find it. 361 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 4: Things were lost in floods and fires. And you remember, 362 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,719 Speaker 4: we're talking like better part of twenty years when we 363 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 4: started to reinvestigate this case and the frustration, and you're 364 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 4: looking at the pictures of the kids, and I used 365 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 4: to have their school pictures on my desk, you know, 366 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 4: because you don't want to remember them how they were killed. 367 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 4: You wanted to remember them what they look like. And 368 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 4: every day when you come into the office, that was 369 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 4: my reminder, like, okay, let's get back into this case, 370 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 4: and let's look at this and let's see maybe we 371 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 4: miss something else. And give the couple of sheets to 372 00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 4: somebody else and say here, read this. Tell me what 373 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 4: you think or what do you see in this picture? 374 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 4: Do you see anything else? And they with some certain 375 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 4: things in the photos that we saw that we just 376 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 4: couldn't find in the evidence room throughout, and that frustration 377 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 4: just kind of burned it into your head because you 378 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 4: knew if you could only find that you could put 379 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 4: this case together. And when you go to the district 380 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 4: attorney and you talk to them and you sit down 381 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 4: and say, listen, how do I you know, what's the 382 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 4: only thing we can do with this? This is all evidence, 383 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 4: you know, all all roads lead to Rome with this guy, 384 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 4: what do we do? And then you get that, well, 385 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 4: bring him in if he confesses, great, if he doesn't 386 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 4: well what can I tell you? You know, and that's the game. 387 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 4: So we never did that because we knew once you 388 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 4: did that and failed, it's over. This person will never 389 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 4: talk to you again. You'll never get a second chance 390 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 4: at it. And we just kind of left it that way, 391 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 4: which it kind of leaves you with that, you know, 392 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 4: what could I have done? What could I have What 393 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 4: could we have said? What could we have what else 394 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 4: could we have done? Maybe we should have looked harder 395 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 4: for those evidence containers of it. Just I mean, we 396 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 4: spent sometimes we spent days going through these evidence rooms 397 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 4: just hoping to find it, and and it just carries 398 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 4: on to the day and it's it's just part of 399 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:22,479 Speaker 4: the thing. It's just part of an entire box of 400 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 4: stuff that you end up packing up when you leave 401 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 4: and handing in your badge and gun and walking home 402 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 4: with it. Yeah, you have your personal items, but you 403 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 4: also have this imaginary box or like Joe Tolked, this 404 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 4: burlout bag that you drag home with you and it 405 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 4: just never goes away. 406 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: Lisa Rabakov a New York licensed private investigator, a polygraph examiner, 407 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: a regular media expert, and she's about to add to 408 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: her resume the title of wife, so she's been a 409 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: little bit busier than the rest of us. Lisa, I 410 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: got to tell you you in your career what amazes 411 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: me is and this is terrible to say, but I 412 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: have never, until known you and your stories, thought about 413 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 1: a polygraph examiner heaven trauma, and I'm ashamed to say it. 414 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: So I want them to hear just part of some 415 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: of your stories so that they understand. 416 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 4: What I didn't. 417 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 3: This is like a family meeting in the living room, 418 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 3: because yes, it literally is, because for us to be 419 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 3: able to offer them even in person or even something 420 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 3: that is a situation of recording a podcast, just to 421 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 3: have this form of therapy amongst not just friends, but 422 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 3: at this point, like we're family. All three of you 423 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 3: and your spouses are invited to my wedding. Like that 424 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 3: is how close and how much I admire and appreciate 425 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 3: our friendships as colleagues, but people in general. Cheryl's podcast 426 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 3: is called Zone seven where we can go ahead and 427 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 3: have those moments and use that dark humor and some 428 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 3: of those unfiltered off colored comments and jokes to cope, 429 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 3: but we also have the opportunity to help and advise 430 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 3: each other on next steps and how to also take 431 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 3: care of ourselves. Going back to what you had mentioned 432 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,239 Speaker 3: about forgetting that possibly polygrab examiners go through trauma, we 433 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 3: one hundred percent do. For those that don't know as 434 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 3: we well, or for those of you do know me 435 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 3: in person, I'm definitely on the younger end of the 436 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 3: spectrum pertaining to being an expert in true crime. I'm 437 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 3: only going to be thirty seven. But I also started 438 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 3: my career when I was twenty three, so it was 439 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 3: very difficult at the beginning stages of my career having 440 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 3: that work life balance because I wanted to go out 441 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 3: to nightclubs and partying and enjoy a good cocktail here 442 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 3: and there with some friends and dating. Doing my career. 443 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 3: It was definitely detrimental, But that's require as a whole 444 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 3: different podcast episode and going exactly nothing like being able 445 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 3: to do a background check and a polygap one after 446 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 3: the other before before a second date, because you've got 447 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 3: to get them to the first just to make sure 448 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 3: that they're eligible for the background. You don't want to 449 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 3: just run it off the start, give them a chance, 450 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 3: just a sliver, but going through the emotions of getting 451 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 3: acclimated and having the experiences pertain into agism amongst working 452 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 3: with different law enforcement agencies, or agism with the examinees 453 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 3: sitting across from me. A lot of the times I 454 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 3: was being told You're not old enough to understand what 455 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 3: I'm going through, or you haven't been around the block, 456 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 3: And every single time I would tell them and say, listen, 457 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 3: I haven't been in the rock. I have never walked 458 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 3: in your shoes. In certain circumstances, I would not want 459 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 3: to walk in their shoes. But other times, if I 460 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 3: was innocent, I definitely would because I would absolutely take 461 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 3: the exam. But I like to tell our everyone that 462 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 3: comes into my office even today, and I've been using 463 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 3: this line for almost fourteen years now, that the polygraph 464 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 3: is the most screwed up form of therapy because you 465 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 3: have the opportunity to sit in front of someone that 466 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:18,239 Speaker 3: is completely unbiased and is only there for you. You 467 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 3: are there as part of their emotional support team if 468 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 3: you refer to them by your therapist, if you are 469 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 3: working with law enforcement, if you are working with a family, 470 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 3: you are there to go ahead and emotionally support them 471 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 3: and work with them through the polygraph process. There are 472 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 3: other times where they're criminal exams, and I'm hired by 473 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 3: an attorney, but I'm also there to be the unbiased 474 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 3: investigator and polygraph examiner here on their side of the story. Now, 475 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 3: percentage wise, I would say for the criminal tests that 476 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 3: I've run, seven out of ten of them are individuals 477 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 3: that are sitting in front of me that have been 478 00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 3: accused of a sexual assault against a or a child, 479 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 3: sexual molestation, physical abuse. And again it's therapy, so they 480 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 3: have to sit there and they have to offload, and 481 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 3: they have to tell me every little detail. Sometimes I 482 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 3: even have them write it down. So not only do 483 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 3: I have to process it auditorily, I also have them 484 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 3: go ahead and give me a written statement because I'm 485 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 3: trained in identifying deception and handwriting and through stories, so 486 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 3: I have to almost revictimize myself hearing this. And by 487 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 3: the time of the exam is done, I know if 488 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 3: the individual committed said crime or did not commit said crime, 489 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 3: So I can't go ahead and notify law enforcement and say, hey, 490 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 3: this person should be arrested. I'm also not a mandated reporter, 491 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 3: so if I know that they offend it against the 492 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 3: child and this is like an internal family issue, I 493 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 3: can't call the cops and report it. It's up to 494 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 3: the family members that have asked this person to subject 495 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 3: themselves to an exam to handle it within the family. 496 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 3: So I have to go home at the end of 497 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 3: the day and pretty much eat it and swallow it 498 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 3: because I don't go to therapy, and I would feel 499 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 3: awkward going to therapy to speak to someone about when 500 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 3: they go how is your day, and I go, oh, well, 501 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 3: this is what I did. I went to prison in 502 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 3: the morning to test someone in bother and handcuffs and 503 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 3: shackles in a small little shoe box about whether they 504 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 3: did the crime or not. And then I came back 505 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 3: and I had another person that was accused of sexually 506 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 3: assaulting a family member. And typically, like I mentioned, it's 507 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 3: usually a minor, but I can't say or do anything 508 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 3: about it, and I don't want to risk breaking confidentiality 509 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 3: of my clients by speaking to someone else. So it 510 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 3: then becomes the internal struggle, and especially when I was 511 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 3: in my twenties, of do I rely on alcohol, do 512 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 3: I go ahead and hit the bottle, and do I 513 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 3: make myself feel better? And as both Joe and Joe 514 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 3: mentioned in Cheryl, it's the common theme of what do 515 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 3: we do with our trauma When we leave our offices, 516 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 3: when we push our chairry and we leave the desk, 517 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 3: we turn the lights off and we go home. We 518 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 3: have to sit with everything that we've seen, heard, smelled, 519 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 3: and have to take in. It's a full sensory experience 520 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 3: when dealing with trauma, and it's up to us to 521 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 3: be able to have this zone seven, this network of 522 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 3: family and colleagues, to have these conversations with and say 523 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 3: that I need help. And most of the time a 524 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 3: lot of people don't say I need help. I will 525 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 3: say that the time that I did ask for help 526 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 3: was when I had to test victims of Jeffrey Epstein 527 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 3: as well as Harvey Weinstein. And let me tell you, 528 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 3: as a female working with female victims, I can appreciate 529 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 3: the transparency of them coming forward and wanting to advocate 530 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 3: for themselves, to show the narrative is what happened, and 531 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 3: to go ahead and to put not necessarily their name 532 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 3: because most of the times they were listed in documentation 533 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 3: as Jane Doe's, but to go ahead and put the 534 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 3: truth out there and that yes, they had to revictimize 535 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 3: themselves by sitting through an interview with me and showing 536 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 3: me photographs or videos and providing extensive details as to 537 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 3: what exactly did transpire. And again there were multiple victims, 538 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 3: and at this time I think I had tested about 539 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 3: five or six victims back to back, meaning that over 540 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 3: the course of a three week period, I only focused 541 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 3: on these individual victims that were my clients because I 542 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 3: did not want any outside cases to get in the 543 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 3: way of being able to assist them and their advocacy. 544 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 4: So by the time I was done. 545 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 3: With all of this work, I eventually came home and 546 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 3: I said, I'm done. I thought I was going to 547 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 3: walk away from my job. I thought I was going 548 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 3: to be done because the general public only knows what's 549 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 3: out there through court documentations or at the David's or testimonies, 550 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 3: things like that. But to hear it directly from the verb, 551 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 3: like I'm going to use the phrase from the horse's mouth, 552 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 3: they're obviously not horses and they don't look like horses. 553 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 3: But to hear it from a first party primary source, 554 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 3: like going back to school, there's primary sources and secondary insertiary. 555 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 3: Secondary is what you see on the media, what you 556 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 3: read in the media. Primary is the individual right there. 557 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 3: They are the living testament to how they have been victimized. 558 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 3: So for me, I had to endure a whole lot 559 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 3: of trauma and taking that in and not being able 560 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 3: to get it out. So I actually, as I mentioned, 561 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 3: I considered even quitting my job and walking away from 562 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 3: it completely because I didn't know how much worse my 563 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 3: what could be down the road, Like I've already been 564 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,959 Speaker 3: through this, knowing how horrible the world is in this 565 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 3: entire situation, how can I handle this moving forward or 566 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 3: what can or what coping skills am I going to 567 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 3: need to be able to address future clients and at 568 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 3: the same time having the balance of hearing these victims 569 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 3: stories and the next time I have a perpetrator or 570 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 3: alleged perpetrator being tested because they want to prove that 571 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 3: they didn't how do I make sure that I'm not 572 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 3: coming to the table biased because what I've already dealt 573 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 3: with in different case. So my solution to that was 574 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 3: taking an extended leaf from work and going ahead and 575 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 3: engulfing myself with my family, my colleagues, my friends, spending 576 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 3: time with my dogs, traveling, and just doing things that 577 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 3: I loved to kind of offset how I was feeling emotionally, 578 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 3: and some people may think I was trying to put 579 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 3: a band aid on it and I was just doing 580 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 3: trauma or trauma healing. But at the same time, I 581 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 3: was doing what I needed to do to survive in 582 00:32:59,280 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 3: that government. 583 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: If you're scared, we've all been scared. If you can't sleep, 584 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: all of us have not been able to sleep. You 585 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: feel like you can't do enough, You feel like you 586 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: didn't ask the right question. You feel like I know 587 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: who did it and I can't get across the finish 588 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: line to arrest. We've all been there. Reach out to somebody, anybody. 589 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is own seven