1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,160 Susan Rice: Welcome back to she Pivots. I'm Ambassador Susan Rice. 2 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,959 Emily Tisch Sussman: Welcome back to she Pivots, the podcast where we talk 3 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,599 Emily Tisch Sussman: with women who dare to pivot out of one career 4 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,239 Emily Tisch Sussman: and into something new and explore how their personal lives 5 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:34,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: impacts these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. Today 6 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,199 Emily Tisch Sussman: we have another special candid conversation recorded live here at 7 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: the Aspen Ideas Festival. Maybe you can hear the Aspen 8 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: trees and streams behind me where I'm sitting down with 9 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: some of the world's foremost leaders, innovators, and creators. Today 10 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: is my conversation with Ambassador Susan Rice, former Domestic Policy 11 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:59,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: advisor under President Biden, former National Security Advisor under President Obama, 12 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: and former US Ambassador to the United Nations. I'm so 13 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: excited she Pivots as one of the inaugural audio first 14 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: media companies to partner with the festival. It was invigorating 15 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: to be among brilliant leaders and thinkers from around the 16 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: globe to discuss and hear the ideas that'll shape tomorrow 17 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: and help us understand today. Over the next few weeks, 18 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:27,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: you'll hear live candid conversations from inspiring women recorded here 19 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: at the festival. From geopolitical issues, to economic issues, to 20 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: cultural issues and beyond. Each interview connects to the larger 21 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: cultural moment we're in, and of course, interreeves their personal lives. 22 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: I hope you walk away feeling as inspired and determined 23 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,039 Emily Tisch Sussman: as I did to continue to share our stories and 24 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: experiences to change the cultural landscape for a better tomorrow. 25 00:01:51,680 --> 00:02:00,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: Let's jump right in. I'm delighted to be here at 26 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: the Aspmen Ideas Festival with Susan Rice, former National Security 27 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: Advisor and US Ambassador to the United Nations. She has 28 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: been at the forefront of some of the world's most 29 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:17,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: complex and important issues. She is a mother, wife, scholar, diplomat, 30 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: and fierce champion of American interests and values. Welcome, Susan, 31 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: Thank you. How did you like that introduction of yourself? 32 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:25,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: Did we miss anything? 33 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,760 Susan Rice: You know, a lot that I was domestic policy adviser 34 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:30,560 Susan Rice: Joe Biden, which is. 35 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:32,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: A really important part. 36 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:33,840 Susan Rice: Okay, and I think the only person to ever have 37 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,160 Susan Rice: been National security advisor and domestic policy advisor. 38 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: I think that is true. How did you find that transition. 39 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,720 Susan Rice: Interesting and invigorating? Actually? 40 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,639 Emily Tisch Sussman: Yeah, in what sense? Well? 41 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,400 Susan Rice: Having spent twenty five years in national security policy making, 42 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,440 Susan Rice: including his national security advisor. I understood how to make 43 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:02,200 Susan Rice: policy processes work, how to make decisions, to make government responsive, 44 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,560 Susan Rice: and to implement decisions that have been made effectively. But 45 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,080 Susan Rice: had done that primarily in the national security realm, and 46 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,320 Susan Rice: so the opportunity to bring those skills and experience and 47 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:19,079 Susan Rice: familiarity with structured process for policy making to the domestic side, 48 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,480 Susan Rice: where frankly there's been less structure historically, was really interesting. 49 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,600 Susan Rice: So I had had all the muscles, and I had 50 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,320 Susan Rice: to learn the substance, and there were some aspects of 51 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,360 Susan Rice: the substance that was more familiar than others. But you know, 52 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,200 Susan Rice: health care policy, which incredibly technical, aspects of immigration law, 53 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,960 Susan Rice: which is incredibly technical. My portfolio ranged from you know, 54 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:46,000 Susan Rice: healthcare and veterans affairs, to education policy, to agriculture, to 55 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,600 Susan Rice: rural America to housing. You know, it was expansive, and 56 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,200 Susan Rice: so it was really fun. I learned a lot. I 57 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,600 Susan Rice: feel like we got a lot done, and I really 58 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:58,840 Susan Rice: enjoyed it. Actually, it was a refreshing transition. 59 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: Refreshing is not where I was going, But I feel 60 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: like people just weigh in more on domestic they do 61 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: the national security they do. Yeah, was that. 62 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,120 Susan Rice: A yeah, that was an adjustment. 63 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:13,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: Everyone's got an opinion. 64 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,360 Susan Rice: No, that was an adjustment. In national security. We had 65 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,560 Susan Rice: to engage Congress affair, but particularly the national security committees, 66 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,040 Susan Rice: and there were certain constituency groups that had strong opinions 67 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,920 Susan Rice: on matters you might imagine, but it wasn't a constant barrage. 68 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,320 Susan Rice: When you work on domestic policy, it's not a nice 69 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,520 Susan Rice: to to listen to and consult with outside groups. It's 70 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:40,560 Susan Rice: an absolute necessity and they're instrumental in informing the debate. 71 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,920 Susan Rice: And so I spent a lot more time on zoom 72 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,000 Susan Rice: meetings or in person meetings with a myriad of different 73 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,800 Susan Rice: constituencies and interest groups, from the private sector to the 74 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,599 Susan Rice: nonprofit world, of all stripes. Everybody had a viewpoint and 75 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,080 Susan Rice: opinion and they all needed, I guess, and deserved you 76 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:00,560 Susan Rice: listened to. 77 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,839 Emily Tisch Sussman: Was there anything in this role that you brought such 78 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,039 Emily Tisch Sussman: a unique background to your point? I think you're the 79 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: only person who had moved from national security into domestic policy. 80 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,919 Emily Tisch Sussman: Was there a moment that you felt like, yes, it 81 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,839 Emily Tisch Sussman: is because of my experience that is different than everyone 82 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: else in the room, that we had this win I. 83 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,320 Susan Rice: Think there were a lot of issues where you know, 84 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,280 Susan Rice: we were able to bring different perspectives and different agencies 85 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,040 Susan Rice: together in a way that may not have been common 86 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:36,400 Susan Rice: practice previously and that you know, could result in important 87 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,240 Susan Rice: and breakthrough changes. Just a small example that unfortunately has 88 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:44,680 Susan Rice: been rolled back and undone as much has been but 89 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,920 Susan Rice: you know, we were able to gain agreement and put 90 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:55,800 Susan Rice: in place a rulemaking process to basically phase out menthol cigarettes, 91 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,599 Susan Rice: which would you know, save millions of lives long term. 92 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,320 Susan Rice: Menthol cigarettes have typically been marketed by Big tobacco to 93 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,520 Susan Rice: communities of color, to the LGPTQ community, to young people 94 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:15,320 Susan Rice: as pathway to locking people into lifelong addiction, and it's 95 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:20,120 Susan Rice: one of the more pernicious forms of Big Tobacco's efforts 96 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,760 Susan Rice: to suck people in. And we gained agreement through a 97 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,360 Susan Rice: process that was rigorous involved all the relevant agencies to say, 98 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:30,880 Susan Rice: you know, no what, we're not going to do this. 99 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,560 Susan Rice: We're going to actually save lives, even if it angers 100 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,479 Susan Rice: Big tobacco, even if it angers Frankly, some African American constituencies, 101 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,440 Susan Rice: who many of whom were being funded by Big tobacco 102 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,240 Susan Rice: to be shills for menthol cigarettes, who came up with 103 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:50,120 Susan Rice: a bunch of I think largely baseless criminal justice related 104 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:54,400 Susan Rice: arguments for not taking action that would have saved millions 105 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,640 Susan Rice: of lives. But you know, it didn't ultimately come to fruition, 106 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,200 Susan Rice: and that's that's another story, but you know, a product 107 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,440 Susan Rice: of our own side actually. 108 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: Not following through. Oh that's interesting. 109 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,559 Susan Rice: So we had the opportunity to finalize that rule, which 110 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,280 Susan Rice: we're now getting into technical administrative procedure stuff, you know, 111 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,600 Susan Rice: in the last year of the Biden administration, after I 112 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,760 Susan Rice: had left the administration, and I think because there was 113 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:27,160 Susan Rice: concern about blowback from certain segments of the African American community, 114 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,280 Susan Rice: again those primarily who were on the pay roll of 115 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,440 Susan Rice: big Tobacco, as opposed to the bulk of the leadership, 116 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,360 Susan Rice: which very much favored the rule, the administration decided not 117 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,480 Susan Rice: to finalize it. Now I'm confident that had they finalized it, 118 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,840 Susan Rice: the Trump administration would have tried to roll it back 119 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,040 Susan Rice: because they don't seem to be particularly interested in public health. 120 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,520 Susan Rice: But I was disappointed that the Biden administration didn't follow 121 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:50,120 Susan Rice: through at the end. 122 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: Either. Were there other examples of that that you felt 123 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: like were in progress that you wish you could have 124 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: seen through to the end, or you wish someone had 125 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:57,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: picked up for. 126 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,920 Susan Rice: You lesser things. That one was one that I was 127 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,040 Susan Rice: particularly disappointed in. 128 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: Yeah, well, ask the flip side. What were you particularly 129 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:06,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: proud of that you were able to bring over the 130 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:07,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: finish line? 131 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,800 Susan Rice: A lot of stuff in the healthcare realm. You know, 132 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,680 Susan Rice: we were able to extend subsidies for the Affordable Care 133 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,200 Susan Rice: Act in a way that made healthcare accessible and affordable 134 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,200 Susan Rice: to millions of Americans. We brought the uninsured rate down 135 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,360 Susan Rice: to the lowest level in American history, only eight million 136 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,800 Susan Rice: Americans uninsured. Now when they passed this big beautiful piece 137 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,640 Susan Rice: of shit, you know, we're going to have seventeen million 138 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,079 Susan Rice: or fifteen to seventeen million people lose their health insurance. 139 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,720 Susan Rice: We were able to get legislation through to negotiate down 140 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,120 Susan Rice: the price of prescription drugs for the first time, which 141 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,880 Susan Rice: was something that we'd tried and tried and tried for decades, 142 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,840 Susan Rice: and we got it done. And as a result, some 143 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:52,000 Susan Rice: of the most expensive medications that people rely on are 144 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,840 Susan Rice: now going to be at prices that people can afford. 145 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,880 Susan Rice: And we capped out of pocket medical costs for the 146 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,319 Susan Rice: insured for prescription drugs at two thousand dollars a year 147 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,560 Susan Rice: and brought insulin down to thirty five dollars a month 148 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,160 Susan Rice: or less. So there are a whole bunch of wins 149 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,439 Susan Rice: in the healthcare sector that I'm very proud of, among 150 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,199 Susan Rice: other things. What frustrates you in this administration? And I 151 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,040 Susan Rice: understand we don't have a podcast long enough. 152 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:23,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: For that, but things that you had seen move forward 153 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: in progress that now are moving backwards, or maybe even 154 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:28,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: that they're taking credit for it. To be honest with you, 155 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:30,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: I think there's some of that too well, I. 156 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:32,719 Susan Rice: Think, I mean, there are many of those things. I 157 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,439 Susan Rice: think that's not the big picture. The big picture is 158 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:40,120 Susan Rice: that we have an administration that is systematically undermining the 159 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:46,400 Susan Rice: rights of large segments of the American citizenry, women, minorities, 160 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:52,160 Susan Rice: LGBTQ people, rural people, veterans, the list goes on and on. 161 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,199 Susan Rice: The program cuts and the policies are going to kill 162 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:02,520 Susan Rice: millions of Americans, and meanwhile Trump is arrogating power to himself, 163 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,400 Susan Rice: completely ripping up the rule of law and due process, 164 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,760 Susan Rice: and putting every one of us at grave risk. I 165 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,800 Susan Rice: believe because when you deny due process to some, and 166 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,000 Susan Rice: it's not just non citizens. But obviously non citizens matter, 167 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,040 Susan Rice: particularly when they're here legally and lawfully. But now they're 168 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,680 Susan Rice: rounding up American citizens and locking them up for no reason, 169 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:33,640 Susan Rice: with gestapo like people and playing clothes and no identification masks, 170 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,240 Susan Rice: ripping people off the streets. I mean, that's the big picture. 171 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,600 Susan Rice: So I'm less worried about the rollback of individual policies, 172 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,400 Susan Rice: which is obviously, in normal times, would be the right conversation. 173 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,640 Susan Rice: But I'm much more concerned about the wholesale destruction of 174 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,679 Susan Rice: our democracy and our basic human rights. 175 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: I worry. Didn't know we're going to get this deep 176 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: in this podcast so quickly, but I do legitimately worry 177 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: that this is the end of American democracy, and I 178 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: don't know that we're going to know when we will 179 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: have hit the moment that we say, well, now it's gone. 180 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: You have a global perspective on this. Are there countries 181 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: it has happened that countries have had democracies and essentially 182 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: lost them or actually lost to them. Do you see 183 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: examples of other countries having gone through this process that 184 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: they had a democracy and then it slipped away that 185 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: you think that we are following the path. 186 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:30,240 Susan Rice: Of Hungary, for one Turkey, which arguably wasn't fully a democracy. 187 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,319 Susan Rice: Those are just a couple of examples. 188 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:34,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: What are the markers there that you think that we 189 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:35,559 Emily Tisch Sussman: are following. 190 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,760 Susan Rice: Well, I just I mean I mentioned a number of them, 191 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:44,280 Susan Rice: but one that I haven't mentioned is the wholesale capitulation 192 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:49,880 Susan Rice: of major institutions, takeover of universities. What just happened to 193 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,960 Susan Rice: the University of Virginia, And you know, Columbia capitulating law firms, 194 00:11:55,000 --> 00:12:01,160 Susan Rice: capitulating big corporations, cow telling, to falling over themselves, to 195 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,079 Susan Rice: ingratiate themselves with Donald Trump. You know, those are examples 196 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:11,880 Susan Rice: of patterns that are very slippery slopes to authoritarianism. You know, 197 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:16,360 Susan Rice: so that we're in a moment I believe of grave danger, 198 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,600 Susan Rice: and I think it's going to get worse before it 199 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:20,160 Susan Rice: gets better. 200 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: Worse How and will we know when we've hit authoritarianism, Well. 201 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,440 Susan Rice: We're getting there. I don't know, if you know. It's 202 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,160 Susan Rice: going to take plenty of people calling it out. But 203 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,079 Susan Rice: when the you know, basically a Supreme Court has said 204 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,360 Susan Rice: the President of the United States, this was before Trump 205 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,440 Susan Rice: took office, can do anything he wants in office and 206 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,280 Susan Rice: as above the rule of law. That was their decision 207 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,160 Susan Rice: last year. Now they say only the Supreme Court, if 208 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,679 Susan Rice: and when it decides to engage, can protect individual rights 209 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:56,880 Susan Rice: or collective rights nationwide. That was the injunction ruling very dangerous. 210 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:02,000 Susan Rice: And you know, I think the Trump deministration is doing 211 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,800 Susan Rice: its utmost to try to create a pretext not just 212 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:10,000 Susan Rice: to call out the National Guard and uniform military in 213 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,480 Susan Rice: our cities, but to invoke the Insurrection Act and turn 214 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,920 Susan Rice: the military against the civilian population. And in that context, 215 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,760 Susan Rice: you all bets are off. He could declare martial law, 216 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,840 Susan Rice: he could suspend habeas corpus, And at that point we're 217 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:27,080 Susan Rice: completely over the edge. 218 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: When you say that people need to call it out. 219 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: What are our levers as individual people, as individual citizens? Like? 220 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: How do what can anyone do well? 221 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,920 Susan Rice: I think, first of all, speak up, tell their stories 222 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,640 Susan Rice: of how they have been impacted adversely by Trump's policies. 223 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,360 Susan Rice: We got to create a chorus of people making it 224 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,400 Susan Rice: plain that you know, Trump claims to be helping Americans, 225 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:56,160 Susan Rice: making us all great. Instead his cuts, his tariffs, his 226 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,200 Susan Rice: ripping up of healthcare, his ripping up of veterans support 227 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,679 Susan Rice: and benefits, the harms he's doing to small businesses, to 228 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,040 Susan Rice: communities is hugely detrimental. So we need a groundswell of 229 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,320 Susan Rice: people telling their own stories. I've been part of an 230 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,719 Susan Rice: effort by an organization called Home of the Brave, and 231 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,080 Susan Rice: you can go to thee Brave dot org, which is 232 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,480 Susan Rice: a group of people telling their stories and short videos 233 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,240 Susan Rice: about the harms that they've suffered. That's one thing I think, frankly, 234 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:30,160 Susan Rice: we need more peaceful, nonviolent protests, and it needs to 235 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,480 Susan Rice: reach a scale and a scope and a regularity that 236 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,400 Susan Rice: has an impact. And we need leadership that is unafraid 237 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,160 Susan Rice: to be very forthright and plain about what is at 238 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,040 Susan Rice: stake and what is happening, And frankly, I think be 239 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,240 Susan Rice: interested in your perspective on this. We need, you know, 240 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:52,040 Susan Rice: leadership in the Democratic Party that is not fractured and feckless, 241 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:57,640 Susan Rice: but is bold and unified and clear in opposing all 242 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,360 Susan Rice: that Trump is doing, and with and clarity and real 243 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:07,160 Susan Rice: unity of purpose, all peacefully, but much more cohesively than 244 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,280 Susan Rice: we've seen today. What do you think? 245 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: I struggle with this. I struggle with what to do 246 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: with how do we how do we do something that 247 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: feels really effective? I feel like I spent almost twenty 248 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:23,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: years designing campaigns federal campaigns to move federal policy forward, 249 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: and essentially almost all of my levers of power are meaningless. 250 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: And part of the reason that I ended up leaving 251 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: Center for American Progress, where I ran issue campaigns in 252 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: the middle of the first Trump administration, was because I 253 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: had designed and run the campaigns there. We had been 254 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: successful at the beginning of the first Trump administration with 255 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: preventing the Affordable Care Act appeal everyone remembers, you know, 256 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: like that John McCain thumbs down moment or repealed it. 257 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: That came as a result of town halls around the countries. 258 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: When Republican members of Congress went back to their districts 259 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: for town halls, the people, even in Republicans district their 260 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: constituent showed up and said, do not take away my healthcare. 261 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: The numbers of how many people would be uninsured and 262 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: lose their health care had come out of my think tank. 263 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: So we had successfully crunched those numbers by district and 264 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: gotten them to people. They had used them in the 265 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: town halls. We think that pressure is what prevented Congress 266 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: from repealing it at that time, and we kept trying 267 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: to replicate it and for the next year and a 268 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: half we kept trying to replicate that kind of pressure 269 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: and that kind of moment, and we couldn't do it 270 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: again because what we basically realized was that the administration 271 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:32,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: was not interested in people's opinions like they were like, 272 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:33,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: there was really almost no kind of pressure that we 273 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: could put on them to change what they were going 274 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: to do. And so in that time, I had two 275 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: kids in eighteen months. So balancing those things and thinking 276 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: should I keep showing up at this job where I 277 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: feel like I'm not making an impact anymore? I eventually 278 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:48,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: left and so now I really think about, like what 279 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: does help One of the things this is for me personally, 280 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: I don't work on legislation anymore. I do this show 281 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: where I tell individual stories, and you know, sometimes we 282 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: tell later stories, and sometimes we tell stories that we 283 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: feel like really need to be told the personal impact 284 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: of how these things like, we take it out of 285 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: the numbers, which is when I work in federal policy, 286 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: it was numbers. It was show that it's big, it 287 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: was show that it's scary, And now I take it 288 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: as small as possible, like to one person, and we 289 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: tell their individual stories. We told the story a couple 290 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,199 Emily Tisch Sussman: of weeks ago. A woman, Caitlin, who lives in a 291 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,879 Emily Tisch Sussman: Republican state with an abortion ban, and she is a 292 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: married woman with a child who wanted the pregnancy, and 293 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,359 Emily Tisch Sussman: because of the confusion of what is considered abortion care, 294 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: which was outlawed, versus healthcare, she was sent home from 295 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: the er twice to die Wich State, Louisiana, and we 296 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: kept it out of the policy. We kept it super 297 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: personal to her to put a name and a face 298 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: on it, and that is personally what I feel like 299 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: keeps me feeling engaged. Recently. We actually just learned this 300 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: last week from iHeart who we run the show with 301 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: that look. I'm very open about the fact that I 302 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: spent my life working on Democratic campaigns. I worked on 303 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: the Obama campaign, I work in Harris's campaign. This year, 304 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: sixty percent of our audience is Democratic affiliated, forty percent 305 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,879 Emily Tisch Sussman: of our audience is not, twenty percent of our audience 306 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: is Republican, thirty percent of our audience is independent. And 307 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: at first I thought, what Republican wants to listen to me? 308 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: I can't believe they're listening to this show. But it 309 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: did make me feel recommitted to the idea that when 310 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:29,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: we tell stories individually regardless of party affiliation, people can 311 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: connect and even for myself, like not even a brothers out, 312 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: I don't know what the next step is. I feel 313 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: like I'm watching authoritarianism rise every day and I don't 314 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:40,239 Emily Tisch Sussman: know what the next step is. 315 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,359 Susan Rice: Well, we got to stop watching. We got to start doing, 316 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,080 Susan Rice: because we could watch this thing disappear before our very eyes. 317 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,560 Susan Rice: And people keep saying, well, we just got to wait 318 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,320 Susan Rice: till the midterms or twenty eight. We may not make 319 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:54,359 Susan Rice: it to the midterms, and twenty eight we may not 320 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,640 Susan Rice: have elections. If you know, we have mortial law. And 321 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,960 Susan Rice: I think every sign points to Trump doing his utmost 322 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:09,040 Susan Rice: to consolidate power disable any checks, whether it's the media, 323 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:17,040 Susan Rice: the Congress, the courts, civil society, education institutions, his political opposition, 324 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,679 Susan Rice: and the way he succeeds is if we all just 325 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,359 Susan Rice: throw up our hands and say it's too complicated. I 326 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:25,159 Susan Rice: don't know what I can do. We all need to 327 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,280 Susan Rice: be figuring out. And I do think storytelling is important. 328 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,000 Susan Rice: What I'm interested is in his story telling at scale, 329 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,000 Susan Rice: and I know that's hard in our current media environment, 330 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:42,040 Susan Rice: but the reality is that in all corners of the country, 331 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:47,600 Susan Rice: in areas rural, urban, and suburban in red states and 332 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,840 Susan Rice: blue states, people of all backgrounds and stripes, rich, poor, 333 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,960 Susan Rice: people of color, people, white people. Everybody knows somebody who 334 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,200 Susan Rice: has a story, whether it's somebody who is in a 335 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,960 Susan Rice: cancer trial, has had there, you know, their NAH program 336 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,399 Susan Rice: completely canceled, and now they can't access the care that 337 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,879 Susan Rice: they were depending on for themselves or a family member. 338 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,000 Susan Rice: Veterans who can't get their calls answered on the hotline 339 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,719 Susan Rice: because you know, we've cut back staff and now they 340 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,640 Susan Rice: want to take eighty thousand people out of the VA. 341 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,040 Susan Rice: Cuts to healthcare and VA people who aren't going to 342 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,439 Susan Rice: be able to get basic nutrition because of what's in 343 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,879 Susan Rice: this big beautiful piece of shit as I like to 344 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,440 Susan Rice: call it that you know, SNAP is going to be cut. 345 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,600 Susan Rice: Millions of people are going to lose food assistants, millions 346 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,720 Susan Rice: of people are going to lose health care. And these 347 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,119 Susan Rice: are real, approximate, no kidding harms. The tariffs are causing 348 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,440 Susan Rice: small businesses to you know, to reel because they can't 349 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,280 Susan Rice: make business decisions, they can't predict what's coming next. Their 350 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,080 Susan Rice: costs of goods have gone through the roof to what end, 351 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,680 Susan Rice: and there you've got, you know, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. 352 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,200 Susan Rice: Who's actively every day trying to think about how many 353 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,240 Susan Rice: more Americans he can kill. 354 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: Literally, Yeah, the vaccine thing is insane. 355 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,199 Susan Rice: Yeah, it's not just vaccines, you know. Now we're not 356 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,560 Susan Rice: going to put out research on how to prevent HIV eights, 357 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:08,840 Susan Rice: you know. So, I mean the list goes on. We're 358 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,640 Susan Rice: cutting funding for black lung disease in Coal country. Those 359 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,480 Susan Rice: are Trump's constituents. All of us are Trump's constituents, but 360 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:22,040 Susan Rice: those are people in his base. We're killing the hotline 361 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:27,600 Susan Rice: for lgbt Q kids who need help with suicide prevention. 362 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,800 Susan Rice: What is the point of that. It's literally killing Americans 363 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,080 Susan Rice: on a daily basis. So it's more than the vaccines. 364 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,000 Susan Rice: Although that's you rightly gotten a lot of attention. 365 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,200 Emily Tisch Sussman: Why do you think they're cutting all of these programs 366 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,719 Emily Tisch Sussman: that will impact It doesn't seem to me that they 367 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: are looking for broad support like they really seem to 368 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: only be I call it transactional, like looking to support 369 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: the people that support them. 370 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,960 Susan Rice: But they don't even support the people who support them exactly. 371 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,879 Susan Rice: I mean, look at these that's the irony of the 372 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,479 Susan Rice: of the Medicaid US and the snap cuts. You know 373 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,879 Susan Rice: that Trump's base is now substantially people who rely on 374 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,919 Susan Rice: government support, and yet he's going to cut it and 375 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,840 Susan Rice: then lie about the fact that did he did it. 376 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,679 Susan Rice: He's going around saying there's nothing in Medicaid is going 377 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,640 Susan Rice: to change. That's a bald face lie. And Tom Tillis 378 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,400 Susan Rice: and Holly and all these posts. They know it, these 379 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,720 Susan Rice: Republican senators who know what's going to happen to their constituents. 380 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,560 Susan Rice: But that's why the storytelling, the truth telling, is so important, 381 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,760 Susan Rice: because in our fractured media environment, you know, if Trump 382 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,760 Susan Rice: says no changes to Medicaid, which bald face lie, the 383 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,760 Susan Rice: Senate bill cutting it one trillion dollars now from medicaid, 384 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,080 Susan Rice: but people will believe it if they listen to to 385 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:49,320 Susan Rice: right wing news sources. 386 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,919 Emily Tisch Sussman: After the break, more from Ambassador Rice. 387 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,359 Susan Rice: Because in our fractured media environment, you know, if Trump 388 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,960 Susan Rice: says no changes to medicate which is bald face lie, 389 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,280 Susan Rice: the Senate bill cutting a one trillion dollars now from Medicaid, 390 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,639 Susan Rice: but people will believe it if they listen to to 391 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:28,320 Susan Rice: right wing new sources. But that's why the storytelling, the 392 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,600 Susan Rice: truth telling is so important, because in our fractured media environment, 393 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,800 Susan Rice: you know, if Trump says no changes to medicate which 394 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,120 Susan Rice: is bald face lie the Senate bill cutting one trillion 395 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,280 Susan Rice: dollars now from Medicaid. But people will believe it if 396 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,760 Susan Rice: they listen to to right wing new sources. 397 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: Well, that's what I'd say, is that the facts. It's 398 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: very hard at this point to understand for people to 399 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,919 Emily Tisch Sussman: understand what is fact because the framing changes depending on 400 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,399 Emily Tisch Sussman: basically the perspective, our opinion of who's giving it and 401 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: it is. It's very difficult. Okay, I want to bring 402 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: it back to you. I thought, yeah, this interview really 403 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: is about you. Okay, yay, Yeah, we're still getting now. 404 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: I want to bring it back to you personally. You've 405 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:17,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: had so many incredible and accomplished phases of your career. 406 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: Did your metric of success change throughout your career? Was 407 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,359 Emily Tisch Sussman: it always was your goal to always be the domestic 408 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: policy advisor? Was your goal to all? Okay, I'm getting 409 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: a real no, no, no. How did your goals change 410 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:30,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: as you were moving through your career? 411 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,760 Susan Rice: I mean, my fundamental goals have been consistent since I 412 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,040 Susan Rice: was a kid, which is to have a positive impact 413 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,920 Susan Rice: on people, particularly the most vulnerable, and to make policies 414 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,880 Susan Rice: that served that benefited the American people, our national security 415 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,520 Susan Rice: or domestic security and domestic prosperity. All of that has 416 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,919 Susan Rice: been where I've come from from childhood. But I didn't 417 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,760 Susan Rice: have a set, consistent view of how to achieve that. 418 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,840 Susan Rice: When I was ten years old growing up in the 419 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,399 Susan Rice: District of Columbia, which to this day has no voting 420 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,119 Susan Rice: rights in Congress. You know, I wanted to be United 421 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,800 Susan Rice: States Senator from the District of Columbia. Obviously that's not 422 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,480 Susan Rice: been my path yet, and well, you don't have voting 423 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,239 Susan Rice: rights in Congress exactly. But you know, I knew I 424 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,080 Susan Rice: wanted to be involved in the public sphere. That has 425 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,679 Susan Rice: been the constant. But I never had a job that 426 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,520 Susan Rice: I said I have to be the X, Y or Z, 427 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,639 Susan Rice: or I'm going to feel like I haven't succeeded. 428 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:36,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: Did you make decisions around education, placement, profession to try 429 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,639 Emily Tisch Sussman: to get you closer to what you thought was the 430 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: way that you were going to execute on that change yourself? 431 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,520 Susan Rice: No, well, yes, and no, I mean I you know, 432 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,879 Susan Rice: I went to undergraduate at Stanford. I was a history major, 433 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:54,959 Susan Rice: and again always interested in public issues. My expectation at 434 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,959 Susan Rice: that point was I'd go to law school eventually and 435 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,280 Susan Rice: be some kind of public interest lawyer, and you know, 436 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,679 Susan Rice: I serve, you know, people who needed a voice, and 437 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:12,400 Susan Rice: maybe from there get into progressively into political and elected office. 438 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,199 Susan Rice: I had an intermediate stop by the opportunity to go 439 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,120 Susan Rice: to a graduate school in Oxford, England, right after college, 440 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,200 Susan Rice: and decided, thinking still that I was going to go 441 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,280 Susan Rice: to law school, that I would take this time in 442 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,760 Susan Rice: England to study international relations, which is something that I 443 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,639 Susan Rice: hadn't studied, but thought would be useful to know a 444 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,400 Susan Rice: little bit about if I were going to go perhaps 445 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,280 Susan Rice: into elected office, and that took me on a completely 446 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,960 Susan Rice: different path. I initially was only going to get my master's, 447 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,119 Susan Rice: decided to stay and get my doctoral degree, decided I 448 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,200 Susan Rice: was not going to law school. And while I spent 449 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,760 Susan Rice: a couple of years in the private sector, really my 450 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,040 Susan Rice: early career at twenty eight began in the White House 451 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,800 Susan Rice: in the Clinton administration, working on the National Security Council staff. 452 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,960 Susan Rice: And you know, I had a choice at going to 453 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,639 Susan Rice: the Clinton administration in the White House is you know, 454 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,520 Susan Rice: when I go into the Economic Policy Council or the 455 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,439 Susan Rice: National Security Council. I actually was really lucky to have 456 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,879 Susan Rice: job offers on both sides at an early age, and 457 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,760 Susan Rice: I kind of any meaning mining mode and did a 458 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,520 Susan Rice: little bit of probably ignorant analysis and decided in a 459 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,720 Susan Rice: way it was interesting because I've always had an interest 460 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,240 Susan Rice: in both domestic and international. But I thought back at 461 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:27,800 Susan Rice: that time, and I don't know if I was right, 462 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,840 Susan Rice: that it's probably easier to go from foreign policy to 463 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,439 Susan Rice: domestic policy than from domestic policy to foreign policy. And 464 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,879 Susan Rice: that probably was right, but it was just a gut instinct. 465 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,520 Susan Rice: I had no basis for making that decision. Anyway. I 466 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,320 Susan Rice: went into foreign policy national security, and literally one thing 467 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,639 Susan Rice: led to another. I started as the expert level on 468 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,879 Susan Rice: the National Security Council staff. Within two years, I was 469 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,399 Susan Rice: promoted to a more senior job. Clinton second term, I 470 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,359 Susan Rice: was appointed to a Senate confirmed job at the State 471 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,119 Susan Rice: Department to be responded for the Bureau of African Affairs. 472 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,399 Susan Rice: And then literally one thing led to another the un 473 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,080 Susan Rice: National Security Advisor. I didn't have a clear cut plan 474 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,919 Susan Rice: that I'm going into national security and I'm going to 475 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,240 Susan Rice: try to be national security advisor. That wasn't how it worked, 476 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,960 Susan Rice: nor did I have any expectation. After I left the 477 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,360 Susan Rice: Obama administration, that I was going to go back into 478 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,600 Susan Rice: government at all, much less into domestic policy and run 479 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,840 Susan Rice: you know, a similar sort of set of processes on 480 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:26,880 Susan Rice: the domestic side. 481 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:28,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: How did that come about? 482 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:35,240 Susan Rice: Well, President Elect Biden, with whom I'd obviously worked closely 483 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,480 Susan Rice: over the years, most closely when he was vice president 484 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,720 Susan Rice: and I was National Security advisor. You know, we saw 485 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:46,200 Susan Rice: each other almost every day and work together on national security. 486 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,720 Susan Rice: And then also when he was in the Senate he 487 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,800 Susan Rice: chaired the Foreign Relations Committee, he would chaired the committee 488 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,880 Susan Rice: when it Yeah, when I was up for my confirmation, 489 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,920 Susan Rice: and so I've known him for years, he came to 490 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,960 Susan Rice: me through through his team, saying, you know, I want 491 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,360 Susan Rice: you to join the administration. And in fact, I'd been 492 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,000 Susan Rice: among the people he had considered for vice president in 493 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,120 Susan Rice: twenty twenty, so he wanted me in. The question was, 494 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,080 Susan Rice: you know what, in what role? And frankly, after having 495 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,120 Susan Rice: spent all that time in national security, I was up 496 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,200 Susan Rice: for something new and different, something that would enable me 497 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,920 Susan Rice: to learn and grow. And so we talked about this 498 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,800 Susan Rice: and a couple other things, and I think we both 499 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,240 Susan Rice: thought that this would be the best fit. And I 500 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,120 Susan Rice: think he really was interested in my bringing my experience 501 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,080 Susan Rice: in leading and running policy processes at the cabinet level 502 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,840 Susan Rice: in the national security realm, which has a set of 503 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,840 Susan Rice: what it had before Trump, you know, rigor and structure 504 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,960 Susan Rice: and real norms, sort of importing that to the domestic 505 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,320 Susan Rice: policy side, which in different administrations has been run differently 506 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,640 Susan Rice: but with less structure than we have done it historically 507 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,840 Susan Rice: on the national security side. So I think he w 508 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,640 Susan Rice: me to bring those skills in, that experience and work 509 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,560 Susan Rice: on the wide range of domestic issues that he was 510 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:07,680 Susan Rice: passionate about. 511 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: Really, my reason for starting this show was because, as 512 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: I shared, and I had been in this job from 513 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: the world that we come in, or you come from 514 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: a much larger world than me, but you know from DC, 515 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: from federal policy, where personally you always have to be 516 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: projecting strength. Professionally, you never want to tell anyone that 517 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:25,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: you can't you're not up for the job that you're doing, 518 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: You'll never get the next job. And when I had 519 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: two kids in eighteen months, I was not up for 520 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: the job that I was doing, and so I didn't 521 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:33,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: want anyone to think that I wasn't up for the job, 522 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: and so I told them that I was just ready 523 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: to move on and start consulting and do my own thing. 524 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: I came up with a professional narrative for why I 525 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: was moving on to the next thing, when really it 526 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: was the personal reason that I was leaving. It doesn't 527 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:46,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: have to be a negative thing. But were there any 528 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: decisions in your career trajectory or the path that you 529 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: took that you made four personal reasons? 530 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:59,440 Susan Rice: Yeah, But I'll give you a couple of examples. When 531 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,120 Susan Rice: I left the Clinton administration in two thousand, I had 532 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,000 Susan Rice: a three and a half year old son who was born, 533 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,400 Susan Rice: you know, while I was at the White House right 534 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,320 Susan Rice: before I was going to take over as Assistant Secretary 535 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,760 Susan Rice: of State for African Affairs, where the job requires you 536 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,440 Susan Rice: to travel, as you might imagine, to Africa often. That 537 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,520 Susan Rice: was really hard with an infant child, and you know, 538 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,200 Susan Rice: and I was breastfeeding at the time and all of that. 539 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,600 Susan Rice: So when the Clinton administration ended, we wanted to have 540 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,360 Susan Rice: another child, but we also I wanted very much to 541 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,880 Susan Rice: be in a role that enabled me to be present 542 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,960 Susan Rice: and engaged as fully as I wanted to be in 543 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,960 Susan Rice: the life of our son, and so I made choices 544 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,000 Susan Rice: that at that point that enabled me to do that. 545 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,600 Susan Rice: I went to a think tank at the Brookings Institution, 546 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,719 Susan Rice: which was you know, a good opportunity to on my 547 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,440 Susan Rice: own schedule, brought my sort of intellectual capital. It's very 548 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,080 Susan Rice: much a place that is suited when you're a scholar 549 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,760 Susan Rice: to you making your own schedule and having some latitude 550 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,800 Susan Rice: and freedom. So that phase of my life was definitely 551 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:19,040 Susan Rice: one where family considerations were paramount. We did have another child, 552 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,440 Susan Rice: so thankfully we've you know, they're both now grown and 553 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,719 Susan Rice: knock on wood, doing well. But that was one phase. 554 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,560 Susan Rice: And you know, the other hard period was when I 555 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,880 Susan Rice: was you an ambassador, and I was in New York 556 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,560 Susan Rice: during most of the week. My husband had a job 557 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,080 Susan Rice: and my kids were in school in Washington, and so 558 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,320 Susan Rice: I was commuting it something not unlike a member of 559 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,959 Susan Rice: Congress in some respects to go up, you know, Monday 560 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,840 Susan Rice: morning and try to come back Thursday night or if 561 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,400 Susan Rice: I had do Friday. But there were days when you know, 562 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,000 Susan Rice: you had to get on airplane on Saturday or Sunday 563 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,000 Susan Rice: to get you know, go up to the Security Council 564 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,400 Susan Rice: because Kim Jong un had shot off some missiles or 565 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,680 Susan Rice: whatever or nuclear test. So you know, that period was 566 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,680 Susan Rice: a point in time when you know, I wish I 567 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,440 Susan Rice: could have to a greater extent been able to prioritize 568 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,440 Susan Rice: kids and family. And when I left the UN and 569 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,800 Susan Rice: came back to Washington as National Security Adviser, President Obama 570 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,760 Susan Rice: joked at the Rose Garden ceremony when he announced my 571 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,880 Susan Rice: appointment that I may be the first National Security adviser 572 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,760 Susan Rice: who's going to see more of their kids taking that job. 573 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:35,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: But it was true, and I did stay tuned for 574 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:50,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: more of Ambassador Rice after the break. Did you in 575 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: both of those instances, did you come up with a 576 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: professional narrative sort of similar to the way that I did, 577 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: of why this was the right job in the right 578 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: moment that had nothing to do with your family. Sounds 579 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: like you're pretty open with the President about the National 580 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:04,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: Security Advisor, but. 581 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:06,880 Susan Rice: There may I can't think off the top of my 582 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,960 Susan Rice: head of something comparable. I'm pretty you know, what you 583 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,799 Susan Rice: see is what you get, and you know, I'm not 584 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,640 Susan Rice: really afraid to say things that people might be uncomfortable with. 585 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,880 Susan Rice: I'm pretty willing to be honest and say, you know, 586 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,280 Susan Rice: family's going to come first here and we're talking about kids. 587 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,239 Susan Rice: But you know, I had during my tenure in the 588 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,320 Susan Rice: Obama administration, I ultimately lost both my parents, my dad 589 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,520 Susan Rice: in twenty eleven, my mom right before the end of 590 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,160 Susan Rice: the administration in January of twenty seventeen. But a huge 591 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,440 Susan Rice: part of my personal time and attention, in addition to 592 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,880 Susan Rice: my kids and husband and you know, immediate family, was 593 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,399 Susan Rice: supporting and caring for my sick and aging parents. And 594 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,080 Susan Rice: I was very forthright with you know, with the President 595 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,560 Susan Rice: and anybody who needed to know that if I needed 596 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,640 Susan Rice: to step out of a meeting and go meet my 597 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,600 Susan Rice: mother in the hospital, I was going to go. And 598 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,440 Susan Rice: or if I need to go to a doctor's appointment, 599 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,560 Susan Rice: or you know, whatever it was. And he was enormously supportive, 600 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,840 Susan Rice: not only of my caring for my parents, but obviously 601 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,840 Susan Rice: for kids, my kids too. But he got it because 602 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,120 Susan Rice: you know, he had young kids, right, and he had 603 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,520 Susan Rice: you know, he had lost his mom to cancer, and 604 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,520 Susan Rice: so you know, I had no hesitation about being forthright 605 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,800 Susan Rice: about you know, their times when family has to come first. 606 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,400 Susan Rice: And I did it with the knowledge that he supported 607 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,839 Susan Rice: and understood that. And I tried to also give my 608 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,520 Susan Rice: colleagues and teammates and people working with them for me 609 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,000 Susan Rice: the same you know, support and permission to do the 610 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,280 Susan Rice: same I really truly believe that one of the most 611 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:55,120 Susan Rice: important elements of leadership is recognizing that the people you 612 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,480 Susan Rice: work with and who work you know, for you and 613 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,040 Susan Rice: for whom you work, they're human beings too, and they're 614 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:06,760 Susan Rice: dealing with all the crap that we all know. You know, matters, 615 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,440 Susan Rice: and there's always somebody who can fill in for you 616 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,200 Susan Rice: in a meeting, but there's not somebody who can fill 617 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,080 Susan Rice: in for you, you know, on the sidelines of your 618 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,080 Susan Rice: kids soccer championship or on the bedside of a dying parent. 619 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: Did you ever feel like you were taking a career hit, 620 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: because maybe not with President Obama, but maybe like by 621 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:27,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: going to Brookings or something. 622 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,160 Susan Rice: No, because I mean, honestly, it's not the most important thing. 623 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,960 Susan Rice: You know, the most important thing is being there for 624 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,799 Susan Rice: the people who you love and who depend on you. 625 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:43,040 Susan Rice: And you know, I didn't feel like life in a 626 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,319 Susan Rice: career is a marathon. It's not a sprint, and you know, 627 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,320 Susan Rice: there'll be periods when you're sprinting, and there'll be periods 628 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,239 Susan Rice: when you're walking, and you're not going to get there 629 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,400 Susan Rice: if you're not taking care of yourself and the people 630 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,800 Susan Rice: closest to you. So it just was never that important 631 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,520 Susan Rice: to me that I wouldn't, at the end of the day, 632 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,319 Susan Rice: face with a binary choice choose the people that matter 633 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:06,799 Susan Rice: most to me. 634 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: It's very encouraging to hear it was very hard for me. 635 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,279 Emily Tisch Sussman: I was very concerned about taking a career hit for 636 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: years that I was very worried about it. But seeing 637 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,719 Emily Tisch Sussman: that you clearly did not, well. 638 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:20,840 Susan Rice: It's not I don't want to make it sound like 639 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,480 Susan Rice: it's not a dilemma or that you don't struggle with it, 640 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,320 Susan Rice: But at the end of the day, maybe I'm wrong, 641 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,440 Susan Rice: but I think that good people with talent and commitment 642 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,160 Susan Rice: and integrity and skills will be able to find ways 643 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,279 Susan Rice: to contribute. Honestly, I feel badly for people that I've 644 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,200 Susan Rice: encountered in my career who have a single goal, a 645 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:46,319 Susan Rice: single definition of success, and if they fail to achieve it, 646 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,319 Susan Rice: they feel like they've failed in life, or they just 647 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,319 Susan Rice: bitter and they make everybody else miserable. And I won't 648 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,680 Susan Rice: name names, but I mean I know people like that, 649 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,880 Susan Rice: and they're some of the most toxic people you can find. 650 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,200 Emily Tisch Sussman: We can go longer if you want to name names. 651 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:05,560 Susan Rice: To read my book. I named them in there. 652 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:11,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: So I asked this question of all of my guests, 653 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: what is one thing. It can be something we've already discussed, 654 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,759 Emily Tisch Sussman: or something different that at the time you saw as 655 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: sort of a low and you weren't you didn't really 656 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: see a pathway out of it, and now in retrospect 657 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:23,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: you see that it really set you up for the 658 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:24,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: success that you've had. 659 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,479 Susan Rice: I did write a memoir in twenty nineteen called Tough Love, 660 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,600 Susan Rice: My Story of the Things Worth fighting For, and I 661 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,120 Susan Rice: talk a lot about my family and you know, challenges 662 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,560 Susan Rice: that I had growing up, but also professional successes and failures. 663 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,839 Susan Rice: And the period of my professional life that I think, 664 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,000 Susan Rice: in many ways was the most difficult was when you know, 665 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:53,120 Susan Rice: at age thirty two, as a brand new mother, I 666 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,359 Susan Rice: was sworn in to be the Assistant Secretary of State 667 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,759 Susan Rice: for African Affairs. That meant that I was responsible for 668 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,600 Susan Rice: all all our people, all our embassies in forty eight 669 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,200 Susan Rice: countries of Sub Saharan Africa, five thousand people on the ground, 670 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,920 Susan Rice: over one hundred in Washington, hundreds of millions of dollars 671 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,800 Susan Rice: of budget, and most of the ambassadors and other senior 672 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,920 Susan Rice: people who reported to me were men who were in 673 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:28,240 Susan Rice: their fifties sixties, spent their whole career in the field, 674 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:34,520 Susan Rice: mostly white and who were skeptical at best initially and 675 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:39,879 Susan Rice: resentful and more likely of me as their boss. And 676 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,520 Susan Rice: I was put in that role by President Clinton and 677 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,600 Susan Rice: Secretary Albright, who knew me and knew my capabilities. But 678 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,160 Susan Rice: I don't think they and I don't think I fully 679 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:57,279 Susan Rice: appreciated the time, just what a cultural challenge that was 680 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,960 Susan Rice: for the people with whom I was working, understandably so, 681 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,279 Susan Rice: and now that I'm sixty and I look back on 682 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,320 Susan Rice: that and think, I'm thinking, what were they thinking putting 683 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,399 Susan Rice: a thirty two year old black woman with a three 684 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,120 Susan Rice: month old infant in a job like that? And I 685 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,759 Susan Rice: made some mistakes and I came we had some horrible challenges, 686 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,120 Susan Rice: like you know, we people may or may not remember. 687 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,799 Susan Rice: In nineteen ninety eight, Al Qaeda attacked our embassies in 688 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:31,799 Susan Rice: Kenya and Tanzania and killed Americans and killed many more 689 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,839 Susan Rice: Kenyans than Tanzanians, and one of their earliest and most 690 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:40,080 Susan Rice: lethal attacks prior to nine to eleven. And that was 691 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,359 Susan Rice: a huge trauma for all of us because those were 692 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:47,120 Susan Rice: our colleagues that were killed. And you know, I was, 693 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,600 Susan Rice: you know, leading our team through that trauma and my 694 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:58,280 Susan Rice: natural instinct was, Okay, this is horrible, this is you know, painful, 695 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,280 Susan Rice: but we've got to keep on task, focused on the mission, 696 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,600 Susan Rice: which was you know, recovering our people, going after the terrorists, 697 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,200 Susan Rice: ensuring that our embassies elsewhere on the continent were secured, 698 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,239 Susan Rice: you know, rebuilding in Kenya and Tanzia, all these sort 699 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:17,880 Susan Rice: of very specific on point tasks. And I was driving 700 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,000 Susan Rice: us to those tasks and trying to keep us all 701 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,720 Susan Rice: focused on them. And I remember there was a moment 702 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,800 Susan Rice: where the one of the I guess he was a 703 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,600 Susan Rice: psychiatrist from the State Department Medical Unit, came to my 704 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,840 Susan Rice: office a few days after the bombing and said, you know, 705 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,400 Susan Rice: you know, you understand people are very upset. I'm like, no, shit, Sherlock, 706 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,680 Susan Rice: I understand people are upset. He's like, well, you know, 707 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,120 Susan Rice: you need to be much more mindful of that. I'm like, 708 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,360 Susan Rice: you know, don't let the door hit you on the 709 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,760 Susan Rice: way out. And he was unhelpful, and you know, Captain 710 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,680 Susan Rice: obvious and brought no solutions, but he was he helped 711 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,920 Susan Rice: me down the road understand a shortcoming in my leadership 712 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,279 Susan Rice: style at the time, which was sometimes you can't just 713 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,440 Susan Rice: try to drive from point A to point Z in 714 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,640 Susan Rice: a straight line in a hell of a hurry. You 715 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,279 Susan Rice: have to you have to be patient, You have to 716 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,560 Susan Rice: be understanding of where people are coming from. You have to, 717 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,760 Susan Rice: you know, make space for grief or trauma for healing. 718 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:24,120 Susan Rice: And you got to lead with not just intellectual vision 719 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,520 Susan Rice: and rigor, but with empathy and compassion. And that was 720 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,000 Susan Rice: a lesson I learned early in my career in the 721 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:36,880 Susan Rice: hard way, and I thankfully had mentors who were generous 722 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,319 Susan Rice: enough to tell me hard truths, to give me tough love, 723 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,880 Susan Rice: as I like to call it. That was invaluable to 724 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,600 Susan Rice: me as I, you know, grew up a little bit 725 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,920 Susan Rice: and took on more senior roles that like at the 726 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,080 Susan Rice: UN in this National Security advisor, so with a little 727 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:56,520 Susan Rice: more gray hair subsequently. But yeah, you know, I think 728 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,719 Susan Rice: we all that was just one example. We all have 729 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,680 Susan Rice: points in our our lives where adversity and how you 730 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,239 Susan Rice: navigate through it and what you learn from it can 731 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,560 Susan Rice: be instrumental in making you better. 732 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: Absolutely, thank you so much for joining us, such a 733 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:13,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: great conversation. 734 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:14,960 Susan Rice: Thank you, I'm great to be with you. 735 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: Thank you so much for listening to this special episode. 736 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: If She Pivots recorded live at the Aspen Ideas Festival. 737 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:26,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: To stay up to date with Susan, you can follow 738 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: her on Instagram at Ambassador Susan Rice. Talk to you 739 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:36,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: next week. Thanks for listening to this episode of she Pivots. 740 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,439 Emily Tisch Sussman: I hope you enjoyed it, and if you did, leave 741 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: us a rating and tell your friends about us. To 742 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,919 Emily Tisch Sussman: learn more about our guests, follow us on Instagram at 743 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: she pivots the Podcast, or sign up for our newsletter 744 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: where you can get exclusive behind the scenes content on 745 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:58,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: our website at she pivots thepodcast dot com. This episode 746 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: was produced and edited by Emily at a Velocic, with 747 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: sound editing and mixing from Nina Pollock. Audio production and 748 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: social media by Hannah Cousins, research by Christine Dickinson, and 749 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,759 Emily Tisch Sussman: logistics and planning by Emma Stopic and Kendall Krupkin. She 750 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: Pivots is proud to be a part of the iHeart 751 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:17,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: Podcast Network. 752 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,280 Susan Rice: I endorse she Pivots.