1
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:11,480
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Greaese.

2
00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,720
Speaker 2: The nanny knows, oh yes she does.

3
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:19,919
Speaker 3: You know.

4
00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:25,000
Speaker 4: Babysitter slash nannies, they see what's going on. They know

5
00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,040
Speaker 4: exactly what's going on in the home, and if they

6
00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,520
Speaker 4: don't see it themselves, the children tell them in their

7
00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:37,279
Speaker 4: own special way. Now, this particular nanny noticed that her

8
00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:42,800
Speaker 4: boss slash friend, Jennifer Dulo's still had a full cup

9
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:44,840
Speaker 4: of tea sitting.

10
00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:46,280
Speaker 2: In the kitchen. What does that mean?

11
00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,160
Speaker 4: Okay, you know how many times I've reheated this cup

12
00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,000
Speaker 4: of tea right here. I don't know, Jackie, what four

13
00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,639
Speaker 4: or five before I can finish the thing because I'm

14
00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,279
Speaker 4: running around doing fifty things here in the studio. So

15
00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,040
Speaker 4: Jennifer Doula probably did the same thing, but she never

16
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,960
Speaker 4: made it back to that cup of tea. She was

17
00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,760
Speaker 4: known to have tea mostly in the mornings before lunch.

18
00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:17,520
Speaker 4: So that's the kind of detail that CSI may miss.

19
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,959
Speaker 4: But the nanny knows. She also knew about the affair,

20
00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,360
Speaker 4: the sex affair, Fotus Dolist was having not worried at

21
00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:33,400
Speaker 4: all about the five children that would be impacted by

22
00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,800
Speaker 4: his cheating. You know, Joe Scott let me just go

23
00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,400
Speaker 4: to you first. I always hear the phrase men are dogs.

24
00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,600
Speaker 4: When you hear that, what does that mean to you?

25
00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,200
Speaker 4: Men are dogs? No offense to all you listeners. I

26
00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,360
Speaker 4: think my husband's probably listening right now. He's in the

27
00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,120
Speaker 4: car on an out of town trip, and I make

28
00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:54,840
Speaker 4: sure he had Series six M.

29
00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:56,160
Speaker 2: So what does that mean?

30
00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,880
Speaker 4: You're the expert men are dogs? What does that mean.

31
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,720
Speaker 5: An expert on qualifying whether or not men or dog? Well,

32
00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,440
Speaker 5: I don't know. I mean, as a man, we're gonna answer.

33
00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,200
Speaker 2: Are you gonna skid her away from that?

34
00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,320
Speaker 5: I'm about to answer, you know, spit it out. Well,

35
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,600
Speaker 5: I'm trying to be careful here. No, we're not. We're not.

36
00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,560
Speaker 5: We're not all dogs. We're not all dogs because some

37
00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,200
Speaker 5: of us, some of us actually take care of our

38
00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,519
Speaker 5: responsibilities to our wives.

39
00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,280
Speaker 4: And skating, you know what, I bet Karen Start won't

40
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:30,280
Speaker 4: skate with me. In addition to alleged expert Joe Scott Morgan,

41
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,200
Speaker 4: Karen Stark is with me renowned psychologists trauma expert consulting

42
00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,160
Speaker 4: at Karenstark dot com. And I always say Karen with

43
00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,040
Speaker 4: a sea so you can find her Karenstark dot com.

44
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,320
Speaker 4: Karen I'm not saying all men or dogs.

45
00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,240
Speaker 2: My father was completely loyal to my mother.

46
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,480
Speaker 4: My husband, I would bet my life on it, Lord

47
00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,480
Speaker 4: help me that he has never cheated in our marriage.

48
00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,120
Speaker 4: So all men are not dogs. I didn't say the

49
00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,160
Speaker 4: phrase was all men or dogs. I said men are

50
00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,400
Speaker 4: dogs and not you, of course, Joe Scott Morgan. What

51
00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,800
Speaker 4: does that mean to you, Karen, start and don't give

52
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,480
Speaker 4: me any psychobabble that I don't know what you're saying.

53
00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:09,800
Speaker 2: What does it mean?

54
00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,520
Speaker 6: Well, I think it means that there are men that

55
00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:17,280
Speaker 6: you absolutely can't trust that cheat on their wives. And

56
00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,280
Speaker 6: I think we're talking about a case just like that.

57
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,880
Speaker 6: You can't say all men because research does show, Nancy

58
00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,680
Speaker 6: that there are women that do exactly the same thing.

59
00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,160
Speaker 6: It's not just men, and it isn't even a majority

60
00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:33,800
Speaker 6: of men compared to women.

61
00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,080
Speaker 2: It's pretty close. Men are dogs. I take it that

62
00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:42,480
Speaker 2: you mean that men like dogs, will just hop on

63
00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:43,880
Speaker 2: top of anything that goes by.

64
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, and not be selective, but not care.

65
00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,400
Speaker 4: Not exactly selective. Hey, you know another thing. Let's throw this.

66
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,880
Speaker 2: To high profile lawyer Mark Sherman.

67
00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 4: He has been joining us from the courthouse where votus

68
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,720
Speaker 4: Dilo's mistress is on trial connected to the murder of

69
00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,400
Speaker 4: Jennifer Dulo's mother of five, Mark Sherman. We're talking about

70
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:15,280
Speaker 4: the phrase men are dogs. You heard Karen Stark's response way.

71
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,760
Speaker 3: In, Look, it's a lot of them are Nancy. And

72
00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,000
Speaker 3: what happens is in a courtroom, if you can just

73
00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,919
Speaker 3: destroy the credibility of the suspect or the murderer with

74
00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,400
Speaker 3: cheating or lying or stealing, a jury will hold on

75
00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,920
Speaker 3: to that and go down the deepest, darkest path. And

76
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,560
Speaker 3: it's a really good theme that you could carry through

77
00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:38,159
Speaker 3: a whole trial.

78
00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,920
Speaker 4: Of course, as a good defense attorney, we'll argue, and

79
00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,520
Speaker 4: they're right, cheating does not a murder make.

80
00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,840
Speaker 2: But when you do have cheating and you.

81
00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,640
Speaker 4: Have a dead body, that's who you look at first,

82
00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,200
Speaker 4: the cheater, I mean, it's he Grace.

83
00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:54,320
Speaker 2: This is Crime Stories.

84
00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,919
Speaker 4: Thanks for being with us here at Crime Stories and

85
00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:58,480
Speaker 4: on series sex Sem one eleven.

86
00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,080
Speaker 2: I've been accused of being a man many many times.

87
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,640
Speaker 2: That is not true at all.

88
00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 4: I love men, specifically my husband and son and dad,

89
00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:13,200
Speaker 4: but I don't love men that murder their wives.

90
00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,040
Speaker 2: So let's just kick it off right there.

91
00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:20,560
Speaker 4: Then Nanny is on the stand and she is telling

92
00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:26,599
Speaker 4: all take a listen to Lauren Almita, Jennifer Dulos's friend

93
00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:28,080
Speaker 4: turned nanny.

94
00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,320
Speaker 7: To their point in time when the dynamic between Jennifer

95
00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,320
Speaker 7: and mister Doulis began to change from when.

96
00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 8: You first met them. Yeah, could you describe how the

97
00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:37,880
Speaker 8: dynamic changed for the jury?

98
00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:44,400
Speaker 9: The big dynamic change was in March twenty seventeen, which

99
00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:49,000
Speaker 9: is when Jennifer found out about his affair. In a

100
00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:53,640
Speaker 9: few months after that, it totally changed.

101
00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,480
Speaker 7: So I wanted to direct your attention down to March

102
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:02,839
Speaker 7: of twenty seventeen.

103
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,800
Speaker 8: Did you take a trip with the Doodlo's family?

104
00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:05,520
Speaker 3: Yeah?

105
00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:07,479
Speaker 8: And where did y'all go?

106
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,400
Speaker 10: The kids had a two week break and so the

107
00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,400
Speaker 10: first week we spent in Aspen, Colorado, and then we

108
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:15,600
Speaker 10: flew to Miami for.

109
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,480
Speaker 8: The second week. Who went on the trip.

110
00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,720
Speaker 10: The first week was myself, five kids, Jennifer Potus and

111
00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:24,560
Speaker 10: his friend.

112
00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,680
Speaker 4: Mark Maciela joining me in addition to high profile lawyer

113
00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,480
Speaker 4: Mark Sherman who has been joining us from the courthouse,

114
00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:36,080
Speaker 4: Karen Start, renowned psychologist Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics at

115
00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,400
Speaker 4: Jacksonville State University, and I have been there and done

116
00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:44,520
Speaker 4: several recreations with Joe Scott. Their facilities in the Criminal

117
00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,599
Speaker 4: Justice School of Criminal Justice are amazing. He's also author

118
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,880
Speaker 4: of Blood Beneath My Fate on Amazon and star of

119
00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,479
Speaker 4: a hit series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Also

120
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,480
Speaker 4: with me Lisa Daddio, former police lout tenant right down

121
00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,120
Speaker 4: the street from where Jennifer Dulos goes missing. For those

122
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,719
Speaker 4: of you who can't see me, I just put that

123
00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,600
Speaker 4: in air quotes because she's dead. Haven't ever found her body,

124
00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,400
Speaker 4: but I am not giving photus. Dulos and his sidekick

125
00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,200
Speaker 4: Michelle traconis a goal star for managing to get rid

126
00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,320
Speaker 4: of her body.

127
00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,240
Speaker 2: She has been a.

128
00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,560
Speaker 4: Lead detective on high profile cases like the Annie Lee case,

129
00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,520
Speaker 4: senior lecturer and director at the Center for Advanced Policing,

130
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:37,120
Speaker 4: and graduate program coordinator with the University of New Haven.

131
00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:43,360
Speaker 4: But first to Jen Smith, chief investigative reporter for dlymail

132
00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,360
Speaker 4: dot com. Your coverage has been amazing, Jen. On the

133
00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:52,160
Speaker 4: few times I couldn't hear the testimony myself, I looked

134
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:57,440
Speaker 4: at your coverage and you have really gotten it down.

135
00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:58,760
Speaker 2: To the details.

136
00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,200
Speaker 4: Another big question and Jenn Smith, in addition to the

137
00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:09,000
Speaker 4: rhetorical question. Why, as it said, men are dogs. Have

138
00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,560
Speaker 4: you ever noticed that men always cheat down? They never

139
00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:14,160
Speaker 4: cheat up?

140
00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,640
Speaker 2: The cheat? What are you laughing at over there, Jackie?

141
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,320
Speaker 2: Am I wrong? Am I wrong?

142
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:21,320
Speaker 11: Yeah?

143
00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,160
Speaker 4: Seedney, you're all happy in your new relationship. Listen, listen

144
00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,320
Speaker 4: to us. Not that you know who would ever cheat.

145
00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,400
Speaker 4: That's never gonna happen, I'm sure, But why is that?

146
00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:33,160
Speaker 2: Jen Smith?

147
00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,520
Speaker 11: I mean, look, yeah, I mean you make a good

148
00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,079
Speaker 11: point as to why they do it. You know, your

149
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:38,560
Speaker 11: guest is.

150
00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:39,680
Speaker 3: As good as my Nancy.

151
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,319
Speaker 11: I couldn't tell you. I do not get it either.

152
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,280
Speaker 11: I mean, if we're talking Jennifer Dullus, was this beautiful,

153
00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,880
Speaker 11: loving mother, really exuberant fill of life. This nanny testimony

154
00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,440
Speaker 11: really painted the picture of the kind of women that

155
00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,120
Speaker 11: she was, which I think, honestly, we were sort of

156
00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,480
Speaker 11: lacking before this. So much of the discussion around this

157
00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 11: case has been about the character of Fociulos and his mistress,

158
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,520
Speaker 11: Michelle Tracona is now on trial. Yesterday, we actually have

159
00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,960
Speaker 11: seen a clearer picture of what a wonderful woman Jennifer

160
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:13,680
Speaker 11: Douloz was.

161
00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,320
Speaker 4: Okay, hold on, just one moment, can we just look

162
00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,560
Speaker 4: and believe me. Looks on't everything. My husband, David Lynch,

163
00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,120
Speaker 4: he dated so many women that were just beautiful on

164
00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,640
Speaker 4: the outside, I mean, just stunning, and somehow I managed

165
00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:38,199
Speaker 4: to get him. But looking at Jennifer Dulo's I mean,

166
00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:44,320
Speaker 4: she's gorgeous. Oh gosh, she reminds me of help me

167
00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,880
Speaker 4: figure out who I'm trying to remember Jackie's beautiful movie

168
00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:55,439
Speaker 4: star with the long dark hair. Anyway, perfect teeth, just gorgeous.

169
00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,960
Speaker 4: But aside from her beautiful looks on the outside, she's

170
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,280
Speaker 4: beautiful on the inside.

171
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,400
Speaker 2: Now that's the quality that's rare.

172
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,520
Speaker 4: I mean, you can go to some plastic surgeon and

173
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,520
Speaker 4: end up beautiful on the outside, but beautiful on the inside.

174
00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,360
Speaker 4: That's kind of hard to fix. And on top of

175
00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,160
Speaker 4: that and possibly the single most important Jen Smith. She

176
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:26,719
Speaker 4: is the mother of five Dulo's children. One is young

177
00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,600
Speaker 4: as six when this went down. Now, are there two

178
00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:30,560
Speaker 4: sets of twins?

179
00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,440
Speaker 11: Yeah, that's correct. We have two sets of twins and

180
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,320
Speaker 11: then a fifth child. You know, big family, very happy,

181
00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:41,280
Speaker 11: beautiful family living in you know, pretty idyllic surroundings up

182
00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,920
Speaker 11: in Ukinan, Connecticut.

183
00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,240
Speaker 4: Hey, when you say U Canaan, let's go to Lisa

184
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,440
Speaker 4: Daddio joining us out of West Haven, Connecticut. Former police lieutenant, Hey,

185
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:52,800
Speaker 4: you got to be a millionaire just to drive through

186
00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:53,400
Speaker 4: U Canaan.

187
00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:53,760
Speaker 1: Oh.

188
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:59,679
Speaker 12: Absolutely. It's one of the most elitist towns in Connecticut.

189
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:05,079
Speaker 12: The home values, just everything about New Canaan is unbelievable.

190
00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,199
Speaker 4: Hey, Sydney, can you look up online the price of

191
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:08,640
Speaker 4: their home?

192
00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,640
Speaker 2: I forgot how many millions of dollars it was.

193
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,400
Speaker 4: But you know what, Jenn Smith I investigated reporter Jaling

194
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:14,200
Speaker 4: mail dot com.

195
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:16,920
Speaker 2: Hey, Jen, have you ever been to Aspen?

196
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,319
Speaker 11: I sure have it that I don't think my paycheck

197
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:20,760
Speaker 11: was right.

198
00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:22,440
Speaker 2: Okay, that's what I was going to tell you.

199
00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,680
Speaker 4: I went with a group to Aspen when I was

200
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,720
Speaker 4: a prosecutor, which you know, I had two night jobs

201
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,480
Speaker 4: just to make the house note in the car note

202
00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,800
Speaker 4: I did after the first one point seventy five mil

203
00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:41,360
Speaker 4: out after the first trip up, when I realized how

204
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:47,520
Speaker 4: much just a ticket to go up the funicular to

205
00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,920
Speaker 4: the top and ski down, I skied the I was

206
00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:52,960
Speaker 4: horrible at it, by the way.

207
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,080
Speaker 2: I skied the whole day until it.

208
00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,760
Speaker 4: Got dark because I knew I cannot afford to do

209
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,680
Speaker 4: that again the next day. So the next day, I

210
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,400
Speaker 4: just sat around and drank everybody else's hot chocolate, okay,

211
00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:08,520
Speaker 4: because I didn't want to pay eight dollars for a

212
00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,720
Speaker 4: cup of hot chocolate either, So I just basically moot

213
00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,360
Speaker 4: hot chocolate off people. They call it opery. Ski after ski,

214
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,120
Speaker 4: and it was fun, but it just is so expensive.

215
00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,640
Speaker 4: And I'd like to point out, jenn Smith, isn't it

216
00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,000
Speaker 4: true that they stayed at this gorgeous place in Aspen

217
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:34,360
Speaker 4: because her Jennifer Doulos's father had like one charity auction

218
00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:35,640
Speaker 4: so they could stay there.

219
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,720
Speaker 2: Photos Doulos, It's not shelling out anything.

220
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,239
Speaker 11: Jennifer Dulos's father, who was, you know, a very successful

221
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,040
Speaker 11: impressive here, pretty much a Wall Street wizard, he had

222
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,720
Speaker 11: won a stay in this beautiful Aspen kind of Shaley

223
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,599
Speaker 11: mansion and I generously, you know, give it to his

224
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,120
Speaker 11: daughter to take her her five kids there skiing and

225
00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:03,079
Speaker 11: with her husband. So Clos was not paying for this trip.

226
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:03,959
Speaker 2: You're quite right.

227
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,200
Speaker 11: I mean, you talked about the expense of cat chocolates.

228
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,840
Speaker 11: But something tells me that maybe Jennifer Dolis's father was

229
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,040
Speaker 11: helping them out in more ways than just giving them

230
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,400
Speaker 11: their accommodation for the week.

231
00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:29,160
Speaker 1: Time stories with men.

232
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:34,120
Speaker 4: It'sy Grace parent Starr and joining me, psychologists joining us

233
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,559
Speaker 4: from Manhattan. I don't know if this is in the

234
00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:42,520
Speaker 4: d S M the diagnostic What is DSM diagnostic? But

235
00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,920
Speaker 4: I know Manuel and I know diagnostic, But.

236
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:49,920
Speaker 2: What is the S statistic? Yes, that is much in there.

237
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:52,240
Speaker 6: Is what.

238
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,120
Speaker 2: M H paraside.

239
00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,600
Speaker 6: I keep looking, I keep looking for much. They haven't

240
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:01,600
Speaker 6: included it yet.

241
00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,680
Speaker 4: I'm telling him what you know, if I come in

242
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,840
Speaker 4: and David lanch is sitting in his chair, I'm like,

243
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,160
Speaker 4: uh uh, you go right back out there and go

244
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:11,960
Speaker 4: back to the office and work some more.

245
00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:13,720
Speaker 2: That's what photos Doulo says.

246
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,560
Speaker 4: Now, Jens Smith, isn't it sure he had his own

247
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:17,559
Speaker 4: construction company.

248
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,280
Speaker 11: He did. Yeah, he had launched the four Group, which

249
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,640
Speaker 11: he kind of presented as a property development firm. It was,

250
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,120
Speaker 11: you know, more of a construction company building houses in

251
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,320
Speaker 11: an Iron, Connecticut. Obviously wanted to get into the market,

252
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,160
Speaker 11: you know, very well. Heeled sort of a group of

253
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,680
Speaker 11: people up there. So he ran the four Group, but

254
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,760
Speaker 11: he ran it predominantly Nancy with money that had been

255
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,960
Speaker 11: loaned to him. He never paid it back from Jennifer

256
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,560
Speaker 11: Dulas's father. It was around one point seven million dollars

257
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:55,840
Speaker 11: that her family gave him to launch this construction business

258
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,680
Speaker 11: and keep it afloat as he struggled through you know,

259
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,200
Speaker 11: financial hearts with it in those early years.

260
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,280
Speaker 4: Financial hardships. They're skiing and asked when they have a

261
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,320
Speaker 4: two million dollar okay, whatever, if you call that a hardship,

262
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,040
Speaker 4: go ahead, I guess it's all relative.

263
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:12,320
Speaker 2: Guys.

264
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,440
Speaker 4: Let's cut to more of the nanny on the stand

265
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:16,480
Speaker 4: in our cut twenty eight.

266
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,560
Speaker 7: Did there come a point time during the trip where

267
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,840
Speaker 7: mister glos told the group via taking the children to

268
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:21,640
Speaker 7: an adult club.

269
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,080
Speaker 8: How did Jennifer reaccon.

270
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:28,320
Speaker 10: Hear in this? She like shocked because they were little

271
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,680
Speaker 10: and they were going to a day club, and so

272
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,920
Speaker 10: she was like, you were both kind of like disgusted.

273
00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,800
Speaker 8: I guess this is the worst. And what was mister

274
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,840
Speaker 8: Doule's meer like as he was relaying this information.

275
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,440
Speaker 10: He was excited that he like paid off the people

276
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,560
Speaker 10: to let his kids into this day club where, yeah,

277
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,680
Speaker 10: he seemed really happy about it.

278
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,480
Speaker 2: Jim Smith, what is a day club? What is that?

279
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 6: You know?

280
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,440
Speaker 11: It's the clue in the name. It's the daytime equivalent

281
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,200
Speaker 11: of a nightclub. It's somewhere that you could go. You know,

282
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,400
Speaker 11: they're quite common on beaches and resorts, you know, sometimes

283
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,760
Speaker 11: the sea resorts as well mentioned where adults over twenty

284
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,520
Speaker 11: one will go and drink and dance and party during

285
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,120
Speaker 11: the day. So it is not an appropriate place for

286
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,120
Speaker 11: young children by any strategy imagination.

287
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,480
Speaker 4: Lisa Daddio, a foreign police lieutenant in this jurisdiction, I'm

288
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,440
Speaker 4: very surprised that he wasn't arrested right then and there

289
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,080
Speaker 4: for taking his children to a bar.

290
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,240
Speaker 2: Why do not just take him to his strip club? Hey,

291
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:29,920
Speaker 2: why don't you just.

292
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,240
Speaker 4: Score some crack cocaine out on the street. Why is

293
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,920
Speaker 4: he taking his children to a nightclub in the middle

294
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:35,280
Speaker 4: of the day.

295
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 12: Yeah, that's a really good question, Nancy. And again, you know,

296
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 12: part of it may be where the police even notified

297
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,240
Speaker 12: that this happened at the time, and if there was

298
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:45,600
Speaker 12: an investigation done.

299
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,360
Speaker 4: But regardless of him being a mooch and a bad dad,

300
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,840
Speaker 4: let's get right down to the murder and what led

301
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:54,840
Speaker 4: up to the murderer.

302
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,200
Speaker 8: Listen, what did Jennifer say to you about the affair

303
00:16:58,760 --> 00:16:59,720
Speaker 8: when you were in Miami.

304
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:09,720
Speaker 13: Yes, well, that's going to be what she told me

305
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,000
Speaker 13: she believed that Photos was having an affair. She just

306
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:14,760
Speaker 13: says she had.

307
00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 10: This feeling he's been acting weird, and I didn't really

308
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:19,760
Speaker 10: believe her at first.

309
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,280
Speaker 8: I mean, you say he didn't really believe her, What

310
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 8: do you mean by that?

311
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,240
Speaker 10: At that time, I had a good relationship with Photos

312
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:28,880
Speaker 10: and I believed him.

313
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,720
Speaker 13: To be an honest guy.

314
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:36,280
Speaker 10: And I couldn't imagine him having an affair where there's

315
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,040
Speaker 10: five little kids involved.

316
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:41,400
Speaker 8: So what did you say to her?

317
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,880
Speaker 2: He said, no, did you hear Mark Truman?

318
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,399
Speaker 4: The defense attorney, And of course I guess if I

319
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,280
Speaker 4: were ever a defense attorney, I would do the same thing, objecting.

320
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,520
Speaker 4: And the defense attorney objected quite a bit throughout the

321
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 4: nanny's testimony, and I'm sure will continue today. He did

322
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:05,479
Speaker 4: not want the jurie to hear what the deceased victim,

323
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,200
Speaker 4: the mother of five, told the nanny that her husband

324
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:10,600
Speaker 4: was sleeping around.

325
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,879
Speaker 3: He objected why It wasn't the most aggressive objection that was,

326
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 3: And you know, you have to wonder why, because again,

327
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,160
Speaker 3: this is an ad This is someone who is making

328
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,879
Speaker 3: a statement about something happening you know, way back, no

329
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,399
Speaker 3: ability to cross examined, and the law says, you know,

330
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,200
Speaker 3: that should not be admissible. But I think I think

331
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,680
Speaker 3: the judge let it in for Jennifer's state of mind,

332
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,199
Speaker 3: not for the truth of whether or not photos was

333
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 3: actually having these affairs, but for what Jennifer believed at

334
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,480
Speaker 3: the time to sort of corroborate and justify her fear.

335
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,360
Speaker 3: And that's been the defense strategy all day, this past

336
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,960
Speaker 3: couple of days. Is this fear building up over those

337
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,200
Speaker 3: two year period from the time she discovers the affair

338
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,120
Speaker 3: to the time that she might go imply for restraining order,

339
00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,119
Speaker 3: which we'll hear about later on in evidence. It just

340
00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,680
Speaker 3: is a build up. And that's all about how fearful

341
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,199
Speaker 3: Jenner for Dulos was. If you know, it's fancy the

342
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,200
Speaker 3: prosecutor asked what was her demeanor? He didn't asked her

343
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,000
Speaker 3: what did she say? But but they got her in.

344
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 3: They must have prepped there because she got it in.

345
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:10,399
Speaker 14: She got it in deovid.

346
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're absolutely right, Mark Sherman. You're a veteran trial

347
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:14,600
Speaker 4: lawyer like your dad, Mickey.

348
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 2: Mark.

349
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,199
Speaker 4: Also, whoever, whichever one of the defense attorneys that was

350
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 4: made another crucial mistake.

351
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 2: He didn't give the grounds for the objection.

352
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,080
Speaker 4: You can't if there's a conviction later on complain about

353
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,400
Speaker 4: the objection that was overruled. If you don't state the grounds,

354
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 4: you've got to say objection, hearsay, objection, highest and best evidence.

355
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,960
Speaker 4: There's a million objections, and every lawyer should not. You

356
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 4: ever seen a handyman doesn't even look down, reaches to

357
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,880
Speaker 4: his tool belt and pulls out the right thing. That's

358
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:54,800
Speaker 4: the way you have to be as a trial lawyer.

359
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,840
Speaker 4: You must know by heart all the objections and all

360
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:04,400
Speaker 4: the exception to the objections. In other words, even though

361
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 4: this is hearsay, which is not admissible because you can't

362
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,480
Speaker 4: cross examine under the sixth Amendment of our Constitution, you

363
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,720
Speaker 4: have the right to cross examine witnesses brought in against

364
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,280
Speaker 4: you and bring your own witnesses if you so choose.

365
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:20,720
Speaker 2: That's in the constitution.

366
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,879
Speaker 4: But if it's hearsay, that means the babysitters testifying to

367
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 4: what Jennifer told her, and Jennifer is not there to

368
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 4: cross examine. That is the basis of hearsay. You can't

369
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,919
Speaker 4: cross examine it as you are allowed under the constitution.

370
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:42,560
Speaker 4: There are exceptions, one being course of conduct, motive, frame

371
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,520
Speaker 4: of mind, and I think that's what the state would

372
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 4: have relied on if the defense had articulated grounds for

373
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,000
Speaker 4: objection unless they objected in the beginning outside the presence

374
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:54,480
Speaker 4: of the jury.

375
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:55,440
Speaker 2: What Mark Sherman, you know.

376
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,919
Speaker 3: I agree. And then I mean you think two the

377
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 3: two defense counts are very technical, very experienced. So then

378
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,400
Speaker 3: you have to ask, well, I'm sure they know this, Nancy,

379
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 3: so maybe they wanted this to come in. And then

380
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 3: you have to think from the defense standpoint. I know

381
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,160
Speaker 3: there's not a lot of space on this panelist slide

382
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,639
Speaker 3: that to try to get in the head of defense

383
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 3: custom ask where they're going with this, But maybe they're

384
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,680
Speaker 3: going to the men are dogs there at Nancy. Maybe

385
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 3: they want people to believe that Potus was a dog

386
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 3: because at the end of the trial they might say

387
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 3: that Shelch go once with another victim. And again, I

388
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,160
Speaker 3: don't know if that's where they're going, but something I've

389
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,120
Speaker 3: been thinking about a lot.

390
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 2: They can and yeah, that's the way I would do this,

391
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 2: because I mean, they're stuck with it. They've got to

392
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:36,679
Speaker 2: do something with the affair.

393
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 4: But I don't buy into your theory that maybe they

394
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 4: wanted it to come in because there's plenty of opportunity

395
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 4: to bring in photos Dulos as a serial cheater. I

396
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,400
Speaker 4: think maybe one of the reasons they're not objecting every

397
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,639
Speaker 4: single time it looks bad in front of the jury,

398
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 4: to keep getting.

399
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,120
Speaker 2: Overruled, overrlled, overalled.

400
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,640
Speaker 4: It makes you look like you don't know what you're

401
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 4: doing because you keep making the same with j and

402
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 4: getting overruled. And you don't want the jury to lose

403
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,919
Speaker 4: confidence when you stand up and make an objection unless

404
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 4: you're doing idiot just to throw off the other side

405
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,719
Speaker 4: and ruin their flow. You can't keep standing up and

406
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 4: being wrong. You got to be right when you stand

407
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 4: up and make a big deal of an objection in court.

408
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 2: So I'm not sure what their strategy is. We'll see.

409
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,919
Speaker 2: Let's listen to more of than Nanny on the stand.

410
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,159
Speaker 7: Did she indicate you whether or not she planned to

411
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:28,879
Speaker 7: confront miss Julis about the affair?

412
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 6: Oh?

413
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, she asked me, Well, she told me that she

414
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 10: was going to and she asked me not to mention

415
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 10: anything to him or to anyone.

416
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 13: So I was in the.

417
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 10: House the next day and when photos arrived too, and

418
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 10: so when I got to the house, she pulled me

419
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 10: aside and told me that she spoke to Photos and

420
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 10: he admitted to the affair.

421
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 13: And that she was going to try and have.

422
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 10: Us be as civil as possible because she opened up

423
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 10: more saying that she was no longer in love with Photos,

424
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 10: but she wanted to have five kids, so they were

425
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 10: going to try and work out what they could.

426
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 4: And to Jen Smith, chief investigative reporter for dailymail dot Com,

427
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 4: that could have signed her death warrant. Staying in the home,

428
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 4: staying in the relationship, trying to make it work only

429
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 4: exacerbated what was happening. She stayed in it for the

430
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 4: sake of her children.

431
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, she stayed in it for the sake of her children.

432
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 11: And then when she did eventually, you know, work up

433
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 11: enough courage and strength to leave, she had to do

434
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 11: it in secret. I mean, that's nanny testify. I guess

435
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 11: today that she was slowly moving the items, you know, clothing,

436
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 11: her belonging out of the family home because she didn't

437
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,719
Speaker 11: want him to notice. She knew that the minute he

438
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 11: realized she intended to go through with the divorce, he

439
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 11: was going to lose it. And you know, she said

440
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 11: it will enrage him. I think were the words that

441
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 11: were used. That's Nanny, you know, this isn't the first

442
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 11: time she has acted as a witness on you know,

443
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,719
Speaker 11: to help Jennifer. During the divorce proceedings, she gave testimony.

444
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,719
Speaker 11: She gave evidence about the kind of emotional and sometimes

445
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 11: physical abuse she witnessed in the home, and she supported

446
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 11: Jennifer's claims about how threatening and frightening, so she still

447
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 11: really could.

448
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 4: Be what was her testimony the prior hearing regarding a

449
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 4: beast in the home she.

450
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 11: Had spoken during I don't know if it was an

451
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 11: in personeering or if it was a written statement or deposition,

452
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 11: but during their acrimonious divorce, she testified about having witnessed

453
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,479
Speaker 11: them arguing in the home. She described one particularly worrying

454
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 11: incident where she said she, Jennifer, and one of the

455
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 11: children were in one room. Jennifer had her back against

456
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 11: the door trying to stop Sootus from breaking through. He

457
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 11: was trying to throw his weight through the door to

458
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 11: get to them. So really frightening things. I mean, Jennifer

459
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 11: clearly had good reason to be afraid of this man.

460
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 14: And Nancy it's mark, and they even passed legislation because

461
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 14: of this very case in Jennifer's plight called Jennifer's Law

462
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 14: that addressed coercive.

463
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 3: Control and this kind of pressure and intimidation. It was

464
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 3: really groundbreaking. Unfortunately had to come out of this.

465
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: Strategy time stories with Nancy Grace.

466
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 4: Guys, I want to hear more of than Nanny on

467
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 4: the stand and will circle back to what we're learning

468
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 4: about physical abuse in the home prior to Jennifer's death

469
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 4: and Karen Stark. I don't want to lose this threat

470
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 4: of thought that the single most dangerous time for a

471
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 4: woman leaving a relationship is when she actually decides to

472
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 4: go through with it. That and being pregnant, those are

473
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 4: the two times she's most likely to be murdered.

474
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: More of than Nanny listen and directing.

475
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 7: Your attention out to April twenty seventeen, did Jennifer make

476
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 7: any requests of you as to whether or not you

477
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 7: would stay on as the nanny?

478
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 13: And she asked me to go with her when she

479
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 13: was planning to move and I agreed.

480
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 8: Where did this conversation take place.

481
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 10: At a coffee shop in Avon, which is the town

482
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 10: right next to Farmington.

483
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 8: Were you still employed by for a group at this time?

484
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 13: Yes?

485
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 8: Why did you decide to go with.

486
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 10: Her because she was my friend and I trusted her

487
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 10: and I wanted to help her.

488
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 4: And now you will hear the nanny who sees it

489
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 4: all inside the Dulo's home testify photos. Dulos used the

490
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 4: one thing against Jennifer, his wife that she feared.

491
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 2: The most, the loss of her five children.

492
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 7: Listen, did there come a time when Jennifer made a

493
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 7: decision to leave for Jefferson Crossing?

494
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 10: Yes, we were slowly moving things out of her for

495
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 10: Jefferson House, to a property that her parents owned in

496
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 10: Pound Ridge, New York, and to a friend's house in Farmington.

497
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,959
Speaker 7: Did you ever witness mister Doulo's to make any threats

498
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 7: about the children?

499
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 6: Yeah?

500
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 8: What type of threat did he make to Jennifer that.

501
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 13: He would take the kids to grease and not come back.

502
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 8: And did Jennifer ever express her fear to you that

503
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 8: that would happen?

504
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 6: Oh?

505
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 13: Yeah, a lot.

506
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 8: When was this threat made.

507
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 13: Throughout those couple months? So April May twenty seventeen.

508
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 7: Did there come a time when Jennifer made a decision

509
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 7: to leave for Jefferson Crossing?

510
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 10: Yes, we were slowly things out of her for Jefferson House,

511
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 10: to a property that her parents owned in Poundridge, New York,

512
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 10: and to a friend's house in Farmington, things that photos

513
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 10: wouldn't really notice being gone.

514
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 4: So, as Jen Smith told us from Daily Mail, Jennifer

515
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 4: was surreptitiously removing items from the home to another house

516
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 4: in her attempt to leave without leave gradually without photus

517
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 4: dulo's her husband noticing, but back to threatening taking the

518
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 4: children away. Karen starked, this is psychological torture warfare, and Karen,

519
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 4: I have someone very close to me.

520
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: This exact thing happened.

521
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 4: The husband is Greek and went back home for a

522
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 4: vacation with the wife and the children. Once they got there,

523
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 4: he announced he had sold the home in New England,

524
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 4: sold it and had taken all the passports. So the

525
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 4: mother is stuck there with the children, not able to

526
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 4: speak Greek. And it took months and months for her

527
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 4: to secretly go to pay phones and work out with

528
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 4: a relative back in the States. And one day she

529
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 4: took the children to go swimming. They left in nothing

530
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 4: but their sandals and their swimsuits and t shirts.

531
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 2: And they got on a bus and they got back

532
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 2: to the States. It was awful, Karen, terrible, and it happens.

533
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 2: It happens, Karen Stark.

534
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 4: So Jennifer's fears were absolutely real, without.

535
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 6: A doubt, Nancy, it happens. We hear stories even in

536
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 6: the States, where there's a father who takes the kids

537
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 6: and sometimes even kills them so the wife isn't able

538
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 6: to have them, just to make sure that he's the

539
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 6: one that has the children. And she was terrified of him.

540
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 6: Think about it. She couldn't just come out and say

541
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 6: I want to leave. I know that you're cheating, I

542
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 6: need to leave you. She was afraid of him, so

543
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 6: she was slowly taking things out in such a vulnerable position.

544
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 6: That's why you have to be so careful when you

545
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 6: have children and you say that you're leaving, because that's

546
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 6: when men get to be most outraged, that kind of

547
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 6: man who's possessive and controlling. Same thing with pregnancy. They

548
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 6: sometimes are just not able to deal with the idea

549
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 6: that your wife will be sharing her love and affection

550
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 6: with someone else, and then you're really in danger and

551
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 6: you have to be careful.

552
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 4: Just imagine Jennifer just about a month before her death,

553
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 4: you know, trying to figure out how to navigate this

554
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 4: horrible situation. There's so much more that the nanny's said

555
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 4: on the stand, But I also want you to hear

556
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 4: testimony from another what I believe to be integral witness,

557
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 4: Lieutenant Aaron litten Rowe.

558
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: On the stand.

559
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 4: Listen to what he had to say about blood evidence. Now,

560
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 4: remember he's finding blood evidence the same day that the

561
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 4: nanny notices Jennifer's teacup still full of tea and her

562
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 4: breakfast granola bar is still sitting there. She never finished

563
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 4: the tea and she never ate the granola bar. That's

564
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 4: what she had every morning for breakfast and it's sitting out.

565
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 2: So what happened? Listen to the lieutenant.

566
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 15: While we waited, I looked at the vehicle and noticed

567
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 15: that there was what appeared to be red blood on

568
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 15: the front of that vehicle.

569
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 13: Can you please describe what you saw?

570
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 15: A red mark on the grill area of the vehicle.

571
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 15: And again it drew my attention because it didn't match

572
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 15: the color of the grill didn't match the color of

573
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 15: the vehicle.

574
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 13: Was there any damage to the vehicle.

575
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 2: No, we did not.

576
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 15: We looked at the vehicle, did not observe any damage. Initially, also,

577
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 15: Blank myself discussed it possibly could be a deer strike

578
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 15: in the roadway. And again there was no hair, there

579
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 15: was no damage indicating any such collision with a deer.

580
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 4: Believe you me, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics.

581
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: When you hit a deer, your car is damaged.

582
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 5: Yes it is. We you know dinner in the South,

583
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 5: we make a sport of it almost They're they're everywhere.

584
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 5: They're like cockroaches, and so we have extensive experience. And

585
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 5: even up there, you know there's a huge white tail population.

586
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 5: They're aware of what it looks like the external damage. Uh.

587
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 5: And you'll have tufts of hair, animal hair that are

588
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 5: caught in the grill many times with uh, with a

589
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 5: center mass strike on one of these animals, there's nothing

590
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 5: to kind of uh frame this like that. So you're

591
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 5: thinking about the dynamic within that garage. And look, I

592
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 5: got to give a tip of the cap to Daily

593
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 5: Mail real quick because they put an image up Nancy,

594
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 5: that is a real big tell here. There's an image

595
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 5: that they are referencing as from the floor of the garage.

596
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 5: We're not talking about the car here, but the floor

597
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 5: of the garage. And the reason I find this so

598
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 5: fascinating is that This is what we refer to as

599
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 5: a dynamic bloodstained deposition, and what that means is that

600
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,239
Speaker 5: there is actual movement with this blood. It's not just

601
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 5: like free falling through the air. It is something that

602
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 5: has been generated either off of impact or cast off.

603
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 5: And the beauty of what this is telling us, I think,

604
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 5: is that, coupled with other blood evidence that may have

605
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 5: been on the floor of that garage, this looks like

606
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 5: what would be categorized, in my opinion at least as

607
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 5: low velocity low velocity cast off. To me, it's kind

608
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 5: of tear drop shape, and as that tear drop narrows,

609
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 5: just imagine that, and it comes to kind of a

610
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 5: point that gives you an idea about directionality. You know,

611
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 5: how was this blood flying through the air when it

612
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 5: struck the surface. And in this particular case, there's really

613
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 5: no other way to explain this other than there was

614
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 5: an attack I think at least that probably took place,

615
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 5: or the continuance of an attack that took place on

616
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 5: the floor of this garage, perhaps as she is laying down,

617
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 5: maybe being beaten about the head, and this blood is

618
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 5: being blown out away from the center point of impact.

619
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 5: It's a real big tail, and I'll as the trial

620
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 5: goes on, I'm going to be fascinated to see what

621
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 5: else is revealed relative to the blood evidence itself, because

622
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 5: you know, look, Nancy, as you well know, we don't

623
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 5: have a body. The blood is what we have.

624
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 2: You're hearing the testimony of lieutenant. But how did he

625
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: get there?

626
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 4: So, jenn Smith, we are hearing the lieutenant describing the

627
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 4: blood in the garage, the nannies describing the tea and.

628
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: The granola bar.

629
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 4: But what led the cops to be at Jennifer dulos

630
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 4: Is home, because because she's already moved out by this time,

631
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 4: she's moved out. This is not the home she shares

632
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 4: with Photus Dulos. So what brought the cops there?

633
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 11: So this is May twenty fourth, twenty nineteen, the day

634
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 11: that she you know, air quotes vanishes. What had happened

635
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,720
Speaker 11: that day was she dropped the kids off at school

636
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 11: at her own eight am. She then returned home at

637
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 11: eighth five am. That's the last time anybody saw her.

638
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 9: Now.

639
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 11: Sinnani Lauren Almita enters the home soon afterwards that morning,

640
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 11: notices the purse, the tea they were going to granola bar,

641
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 11: but no sign of Jennifer. She then texts her no response.

642
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 11: She had planned already to drive into New York City,

643
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 11: where Jennifer was schedul to have two doctor's appointments, neither

644
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 11: of which she made that day. So eventually, as she's

645
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 11: becoming increasingly concerned she's not heard from her boss, Jennifer Doulos,

646
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 11: the nanny in New York goes to Jennifer's mother's house

647
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 11: and says, you know, we still not heard from her.

648
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 11: She's missed these appointments. That evening is when the nanny

649
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 11: and another friend of Jennifer Doulos called nine one one

650
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 11: and say, we're very concerned. We believe she's missing. That

651
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 11: was the reason the police ended up at the whole

652
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 11: that night, on the day that we believed, you know,

653
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 11: the murder took place in the.

654
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 2: Home, so that's how they got there.

655
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 4: Friends noticed that she missed appointments, she couldn't be reached,

656
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 4: and she misses doctor's appointments. The nanny knew again something

657
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 4: was horribly wrong. Now, in addition to just testifying to

658
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 4: what he sees there, there is also something that is

659
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 4: priceless body cam footage.

660
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 16: Listen on the very first day of Michelle Treconis's trial,

661
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 16: the jury watched twenty minutes of police body camera footage

662
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 16: of the scene in the first few minutes of the investigation.

663
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 16: The footage shows Lieutenant Aaron Litorro, an Officer Black of

664
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 16: the New Cannon Police Department, as they walk through the home,

665
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 16: focusing on parts of the garage where officers believe they

666
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 16: see what appears to be bloodstains on the floor and

667
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 16: on a black suv.

668
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 17: On the first day of Michelle Treconis's trial, the jury

669
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 17: watches video from police bodycam footage that shows officers looking

670
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 17: through Jennifer Doulos's purse. The nanny, Lauren Almida lets police

671
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 17: know it's unusual for Dulos's purse to be in the

672
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 17: house when she is in home. Police find keys to

673
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 17: Jennifer's Chevrolet SUV, but the car is not in the

674
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 17: garage or in the driveway. As police began the search

675
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 17: for Jennifer Dulos, they also start looking for her Chevy Suv.

676
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 4: You know, just got Morgan and Lisa Daddio joining us

677
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 4: to just got Morgan. The defense tried a very feeble

678
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 4: cross examination regarding the blood evidence by claiming that hey

679
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 4: a lot of things show up with illuminol.

680
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 1: Like rust.

681
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 2: How do I know that wasn't rust?

682
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 4: And they list a few other things that show up

683
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 4: when you spray luminol. You know what, they're right, But

684
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 4: rust doesn't look like blood. The photos clearly show that

685
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 4: it's a blood. It's as you said, cast off, it's spatter.

686
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,959
Speaker 4: There is blood that looks like a tear drop, which

687
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 4: shows you a directional as to where the blood was

688
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 4: coming from the direction that's not rust. Does it make

689
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 4: the lawyers look like idiots to try to I mean,

690
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 4: anybody that watches TV knows about luminol.

691
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know that it makes them look like idiots.

692
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 5: Nancy there, you know it's a defense attorney. They're doing

693
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 5: what they have to do. But you know something that's

694
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 5: more telling, I think to me, all right than what

695
00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 5: the bloodstain or what the lieutenant was testifying to and

696
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 5: going back to the nanny, this is very compelling to me.

697
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 5: We have kind of an adage in forensics and specifically

698
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 5: forensic pathology where a forensic pathologist will abs in a

699
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 5: body to look at a volume of blood and they'll say, okay,

700
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 5: judging by this amount of blood at the scene, this

701
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 5: is incompatible with life. Okay, so if you've got this

702
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 5: much blood, then this person's no longer in the land

703
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 5: of living, even abs in a body. And what's so

704
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 5: compelling about what the nanny had said Nancy is that

705
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 5: the night before she had restocked on these paper towels

706
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 5: and she had talked. I think they had like a

707
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 5: like twelve twelve rolls. She went to get some there

708
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 5: were only two left. So how in the hell do

709
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 5: you go through ten rolls of paper towels in one day?

710
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 5: That to me gives an indication of some type of

711
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 5: cleanup effort perhaps and a large area potentially of blood

712
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 5: that was cleaned up. And she's not gonna you know,

713
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 5: the nanny's not going to take notice of it. She's

714
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 5: going about her everyday life. You know, she sees the t's,

715
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 5: she sees, you know, whatever is left behind. She's not

716
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 5: that who thinks about blood as a nanny. But you

717
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 5: know that I think is key here that even though

718
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 5: we're absent paper towels and obviously the blood that might

719
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 5: be going along with it, it still leaves a big

720
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 5: question mark and it's certainly something that's going to come

721
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 5: to the attention, hopefully of jury.

722
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 4: List a daddy of joining US former police lieutenant in

723
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 4: this jurisdiction of Connecticut.

724
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 2: Lisa's talking about the paper towels.

725
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 4: I guess they bought them in bulk, you know, like

726
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 4: twelve at a time.

727
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 2: Isn't it interesting, Lisa?

728
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 4: What a witness may notice that a cop or others

729
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 4: outsiders outside the home would not notice. And I just

730
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 4: thought of an example. When my twins go to school

731
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 4: every morning, Lucy always shuts her door and John David

732
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 4: always leaves his open always. My husband has a favorite

733
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 4: belt he wears when he wears shorts, you know, like

734
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 4: khaki shorts. And then he's got another belt that he

735
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 4: likes to wear when he wears long pants.

736
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: And it's been for years.

737
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 4: So if I see one belt, then I already know

738
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 4: he's wearing the other outfit.

739
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 2: You know, if I see the.

740
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 4: I'm trying to say, if I see the belt he

741
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 4: wears with shorts, I know that somewhere in this world

742
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 4: he's wearing one pants.

743
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 2: Does that make any sense?

744
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 4: So what I'm trying to say is people are predictable

745
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 4: because they do the same things over and over and over.

746
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 4: And when this nanny says there's ten rolls of paper

747
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 4: towels missing.

748
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:39,959
Speaker 2: That's a big deal.

749
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 12: And let's not forget that nanny knows intimately how the

750
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 12: family operates on daily basis because she's there all the time.

751
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 12: So while you know, now it's easy to say, well,

752
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 12: why didn't she realize that right away or whatever, you know,

753
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 12: obviously she doesn't know Jennifer's missing at this point, so

754
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 12: she's not going to say, hey, was there a really

755
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 12: big spill where you went through gen roles of paper tills,

756
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 12: because she can't have that conversation with anybody. But she

757
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 12: makes a kind of subconscious note that the paper towers

758
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 12: are missing, Oh, the cup of tea is here, Oh,

759
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 12: you know, the granola bars there, Oh, her pocketbook, Like

760
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 12: that's why after or during an investigation, and especially in

761
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 12: this case, obviously asking people who know the family. In

762
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 12: this case, the nanny who knows the family better than

763
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 12: anybody other than the family members, you know, because she's

764
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 12: there all the time.

765
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 2: You're right, Lisa Daddio.

766
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 4: Mark Sherman is joining us, a veteran trial lawyer who

767
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 4: has been joining us from the courthouse. Mark I found

768
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 4: it very unusual that nobody gave an opening statement, so

769
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 4: our opening statements not required.

770
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 2: Are they allowed? Just not required in that jurisdiction.

771
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 3: They're not permitted. Actually, you can only do it upon motion.

772
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 3: And it's just been one of those things in Connecticut

773
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 3: that we've never done in criminal cases. We have our

774
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 3: individual jury selection where we get to interview jurors for hours,

775
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 3: one on one. That's a very unique thing to Connecticut,

776
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 3: and we don't get to do opening statements. Pros and

777
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 3: cons obviously we don't know. Defense attorneys are concerned we

778
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 3: preview evidence that we can't deliver on. But in a

779
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 3: big case like this that's going six weeks, I think

780
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 3: just to put some themes out there, like the state

781
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 3: would men are dogs, that kind of stuff would really

782
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 3: really help bring some themes across the multi month trial.

783
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 4: Well, Mark, when I practiced as a FED and as

784
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 4: a state violent felony prosecutor, we gave opening statements and

785
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 4: we had individual redire where you individually speak to your ours.

786
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 4: So I'm very curious why in the world you wouldn't

787
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 4: have opening statements, but hey, that's.

788
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 2: The local rule, so be it.

789
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 4: I'm more concerned with the evidence. Karen, start, what do

790
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 4: you make of what you've heard?

791
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 6: Well, Nancy. I mean, it seems pretty clear to me

792
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:08,439
Speaker 6: that she's been murdered. This keeps coming up. I think

793
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 6: that they're doing actually a really good job of putting

794
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 6: the nanny on the stand, because who knew her better

795
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 6: than this person that helped her with five children and

796
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 6: was friends with her, And from that testimony I can

797
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 6: tell anyway that something awful has occurred in that home.

798
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 2: And also to you, Jen Smith, what happens now?

799
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 11: Well, we're back in court, Nancy. We're expecting some, hopefully

800
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 11: some moilar testimony from the nanny. The court is being

801
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 11: a little bit actually opaque and saying who's up every

802
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 11: day and what exactly we're going to hear, So we

803
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 11: don't have a detailed run.

804
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 6: Through of it yet.

805
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,760
Speaker 11: But we are also expecting some form of discussion about

806
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 11: d any evidence that we don't know if that's pertaining

807
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 11: the blood or the trash bags or anything else, but

808
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 11: it is something that Michelle Traconez's lawyer do not want

809
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 11: to be brought up.

810
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 2: I bet they don't.

811
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 4: I guess that DNA is the DNA from the thirty

812
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 4: Stops where photos of Delos threw away Jennifer's dirty clothing rags, sponges.

813
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 4: I think maybe even a mop all over town in

814
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 4: different receptacles. And the mistress, now on trial, claims she

815
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 4: was on her cell phone the whole time and had

816
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:33,479
Speaker 4: no idea what was happening. Testimony is resuming, We wait

817
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 4: as it unfolds.

818
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 2: Goodbye friend,