Speaker 1: In case you're just recently joining us, or however long
Speaker 1: you've been a listener of the show, you may not
Speaker 1: realize that we have years of incredible episodes in our archives.
Speaker 1: We've had so many wonderful guests that we've decided to
Speaker 1: hand pick one of our favorites that may be new
Speaker 1: to you, but if it's not, it's definitely worth another listen.
Speaker 1: We hope you'll enjoy this episode with Julie Simon. Emotions
Speaker 1: and volley sensations are signals. They're like street signs, and
Speaker 1: they point us in the direction of our needs. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the one you feed Throughout time, great tinkers have
Speaker 1: recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like
Speaker 1: garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think
Speaker 1: ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts
Speaker 1: don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,
Speaker 1: or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
Speaker 1: what we do. We think things that hold us back
Speaker 1: and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.
Speaker 1: Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort
Speaker 1: to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
Speaker 1: how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,
Speaker 1: how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: Our guest on this episode is Julie Simon, a licensed
Speaker 1: psychotherapist and life coach with over thirty years of experience
Speaker 1: and helping over eaters and imbalanced readers stop dieting, heal
Speaker 1: their relationships with themselves in their bodies, lose excess weight,
Speaker 1: and keep it off. A lifelong fitness enthusiast, Julie is
Speaker 1: also a certified personal trainer with over twenty five years
Speaker 1: of experience designing exercise and nutrition programs for various populations.
Speaker 1: She has also founder and director of the popular Los
Speaker 1: Angeles based twelve week Emotional Leading Recovery program. Her new
Speaker 1: book is When Food Is Comfort, Nurture Yourself, Mindfully, rewire
Speaker 1: your brain and end emotional leading. Hi Julie, Welcome to
Speaker 1: the show. Hi there, Thank you for having me. I'm
Speaker 1: really excited to have you on. Your book is called
Speaker 1: When Food Is Comfort, Nurture Yourself, mindfully, rewire your brain
Speaker 1: and end emotional eating. And I know this is a
Speaker 1: topic that a lot of listeners will be interested in,
Speaker 1: so I'm looking forward to jumping into it. But let's
Speaker 1: start like we always do, with the parable. There's a
Speaker 1: grandmother who's talking with her granddaughter and she says, in life,
Speaker 1: there are two wolves inside of us that are always
Speaker 1: at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 1: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
Speaker 1: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
Speaker 1: and fear. And the granddaughter stops and she thinks about
Speaker 1: it for a second, looks up at her grandmother, and
Speaker 1: she says, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says,
Speaker 1: the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
Speaker 1: by asking you what that parable means to you in
Speaker 1: your life and in the work that you do. That
Speaker 1: parable actually is so important to the work I do because,
Speaker 1: as you know or you may not know, for nearly
Speaker 1: thirty years, I've been working with overeaters who are primarily
Speaker 1: emotional eaters, and really the work I do is truly
Speaker 1: all about what we feed ourselves, both literally and figuratively,
Speaker 1: and pretty much every day of our lives. I think
Speaker 1: we have experiences, both pleasant and unpleasant um and we
Speaker 1: have reactions to our experiences, and I think these reactions
Speaker 1: include emotions and bodily sensations like muscle tension or butterflies.
Speaker 1: And our thoughts and the things we say to ourselves
Speaker 1: and our emotional reactions can lead to self defeating thoughts,
Speaker 1: uh and vice versa. Our thoughts can lead to you know,
Speaker 1: pleasant or unpleasant emotions. They can lead to moods like
Speaker 1: anxiety or excessive sadness, hopelessness or despair, self rejection or
Speaker 1: low self esteem. So basically, our reactions to our experiences
Speaker 1: can either feed a bad wolf, and you know that
Speaker 1: would be the unpleasant emotions, the self defeating thoughts, the
Speaker 1: low self esteem, or we can develop habits even in
Speaker 1: reaction to our experiences. We can develop skills that would
Speaker 1: feed the good wolf, which would mean things like self compassion,
Speaker 1: self acceptance, self love. And so really the work I
Speaker 1: do is all about teaching people the skills that will
Speaker 1: help them feed the good wolf. Yeah, that's wonderful. In
Speaker 1: the book really does have a lot of focus on skills.
Speaker 1: So let's go ahead and jump into a little bit
Speaker 1: more detail here. You say that the primary laws of
Speaker 1: our emotional eating is disconnection from ourselves. Can you explain
Speaker 1: that a little bit more Well, you know, one of
Speaker 1: the most common causes of over eating and weight gain
Speaker 1: is difficulty regulating our emotions, our moods, our thoughts, and
Speaker 1: even disruptive impulses and behaviors. So when we are experiencing
Speaker 1: unpleasant emotions, when we're experiencing self defeating thoughts, many of us,
Speaker 1: if we haven't learned particular skills when we were young
Speaker 1: for regulating and processing through those emotions and regulating our
Speaker 1: nervous system and reframing those self defeating thoughts, many of
Speaker 1: us just disconnect from ourselves because we don't know, we
Speaker 1: just don't know how to handle kind of the storm
Speaker 1: that's going on inside of us, and we disconnect in
Speaker 1: any ways. So some people turn to food to disconnect,
Speaker 1: some people turn to drugs and alcohol. Uh, some people
Speaker 1: turn to behaviors like gambling or sex, addiction, drama. So
Speaker 1: we're basically trying to do something to regulate the pain
Speaker 1: that we're experiencing. And those examples that I gave are
Speaker 1: a form of disconnection. And so the problem with disconnection
Speaker 1: is that we never build any skill, We never build
Speaker 1: any skill for handling what life throws us. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you talk about how to a large extent, this
Speaker 1: starts with early interactions with our caregivers, that this skill
Speaker 1: of self regulation that is not working real well if
Speaker 1: we are eating emotionally or have other addiction issues, that
Speaker 1: that self regulation skill doesn't get developed due to early
Speaker 1: interactions with our caregivers. We back up for a second
Speaker 1: and we talk about really kind of define what self
Speaker 1: regulation means. We're really referring to our ability to manage
Speaker 1: our emotions and moods and regulate our nervous system so
Speaker 1: that we can control or redirect our impulses and our behaviors,
Speaker 1: and we can think before we act. And basically, in
Speaker 1: order for us to master the skill of self regulation,
Speaker 1: we need to have parts of our brain, the upstairs
Speaker 1: part of our brain, the logical, soothing, comforting part of
Speaker 1: our brain, well connected or properly wired to the downstairs
Speaker 1: part of our brain, which we call the emotional brain.
Speaker 1: And recent advances in brain science have uncovered the crucial
Speaker 1: role that are early social and emotional environment plays in
Speaker 1: the development of um imbalanced eating patterns. So what we
Speaker 1: found is that when we don't receive consistent and sufficient
Speaker 1: emotional nurturance during our early years, then our brains and
Speaker 1: nervous system become wired kind of for high reactivity, that
Speaker 1: lower brain is triggered more often, and it makes it
Speaker 1: difficult for us to soothe ourselves, and it certainly leaves
Speaker 1: us a greater risk for seeking comfort from ex renal
Speaker 1: sources like food. Right, And you say, the book is
Speaker 1: not about blaming parents and caregivers. It's really about understanding
Speaker 1: what we may have missed out on when we were
Speaker 1: younger and the effects that that has had on us today.
Speaker 1: And so you talk about two sort of key things
Speaker 1: in early childhood development, um attunement and attachment. Can you
Speaker 1: talk briefly about those two areas? Yes, And those two
Speaker 1: things that we're talking about are really crucial in terms
Speaker 1: of brain development as well. So basically, when we're an infant, uh,
Speaker 1: and we're experiencing emotion, we don't have any labels for
Speaker 1: that emotion, and we certainly don't know how to regulate
Speaker 1: what's happening to us. And so an infant just starts crying,
Speaker 1: has tension in his or her body and just starts crying,
Speaker 1: and Mommy kind of swoops in. Mommy or daddy or
Speaker 1: whoever the caregiver is kind of swoops in and calms
Speaker 1: and sues. She uses her voice in her tone and
Speaker 1: her eye contact and her behavior, her touch to soothe
Speaker 1: and comfort kind of tune in. We call that a
Speaker 1: tune man. Tune in to what's happening with the baby,
Speaker 1: so she can kind of figure out, what's that cry about?
Speaker 1: Is that cry? I'm hungry cry? Is that a my
Speaker 1: diapers dirty cry? You know? Is that I'm sick cry?
Speaker 1: I don't feel well cry? What kind of cry is that?
Speaker 1: Some mommy swoops in. She she tunes in. She's well
Speaker 1: attuned to her baby's different cries, and she regulates a
Speaker 1: baby and calms the baby down, sues the baby, And
Speaker 1: this will happen, you know, thousands of times in the
Speaker 1: in the babies uh infancy, and as the baby becomes
Speaker 1: a toddler and mommy will kind of swoop in. She'll
Speaker 1: use again her words and her her tone and everything
Speaker 1: to comfort and sue the baby. And now she's gonna
Speaker 1: start to teach the toddler words like when the toddler,
Speaker 1: you know, is upset, she might say, I see your
Speaker 1: feeling sad. That's sadness, Oh you're mad right now. She'll
Speaker 1: also use her words to help the baby learn things
Speaker 1: like corners of tables are sharp so it's best not
Speaker 1: to crawl near them. Putting your hand on that hot
Speaker 1: surface doesn't feel good. So she's gonna tune into what
Speaker 1: the baby's doing. She's going to regulate the baby's emotional system.
Speaker 1: And as the child develops, the child is going to
Speaker 1: begin to coregulate. So the child will begin to say,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sad, I could use a hug, or
Speaker 1: you know, the child will coregulate with mommy. And this
Speaker 1: attunement is is wiring the brain in a particular way.
Speaker 1: It's wiring those parts of the brain the self soothing,
Speaker 1: regulating logical function, with the emotional brain. It's creating neuronal
Speaker 1: pathways among those and between those different parts. And while
Speaker 1: the caregiver is offering the child good attunement, she's creating
Speaker 1: what's called a secure attachment with the child. So the
Speaker 1: child is developing trust that the world is safe and
Speaker 1: that if anything happens, there's someone there to help. And
Speaker 1: that attachment is also important in terms of the brain
Speaker 1: getting wired, and and not only just the brain connections
Speaker 1: getting wired, but also the chemistry of the brain, the
Speaker 1: structures that create all those good chemicals like dopamine and serotonin,
Speaker 1: all the structures are being created u in the presence
Speaker 1: of good attunement, secure attachment, and a sufficient, consistent emotional nurturance.
Speaker 1: So it's really critical. That's why I always say I'm
Speaker 1: not blaming caregivers, because you know, parenting is one of
Speaker 1: the hardest jobs in the world, but it's also a
Speaker 1: very critical time in terms of brain development, and so
Speaker 1: caregivers didn't get their needs when they were young, so
Speaker 1: perhaps they're missing some skills. Um maybe that's like a
Speaker 1: caregiver who you know, when you come home from school
Speaker 1: and you're very upset and your caregiver says, well, let's
Speaker 1: go have ice cream. I know you had a rough day,
Speaker 1: let's go have ice cream, but not really tuning in
Speaker 1: to your emotions and not really helping you understand how
Speaker 1: to process through them. So that's that can be a
Speaker 1: very well intentioned caregiver who's missing some skills. You could
Speaker 1: also have a caregiver who's depressed, or a caregiver who's
Speaker 1: having to work long hours. You know, in today's modern world,
Speaker 1: kids don't have the kind of village that children once
Speaker 1: had in terms of exposure to other elders, so you know,
Speaker 1: we're seeing a lot more brain imbalance, right, And you
Speaker 1: talk about it's not the result always it can be,
Speaker 1: but it's not always the result of um something horrific
Speaker 1: or terrible or traumatic, although those things have severe impacts.
Speaker 1: And you know we've we've talked about that on this
Speaker 1: show before. But you quote the British psychoanalyst Winnikott. I
Speaker 1: think that's the way to say it, who says, you know,
Speaker 1: it could be caused by nothing happening, when something might
Speaker 1: profitably have happened. And this makes me think of an
Speaker 1: earlier episode, and we were talking with somebody who's done
Speaker 1: a lot of study about our inner voice. What is
Speaker 1: the inner voice? Where does it come from? A lot
Speaker 1: of people believe that the inner voice is simply we
Speaker 1: your outer voices and then eventually that's how we learn
Speaker 1: to communicate with ourselves, and we bring those outer voices internal.
Speaker 1: And if those outer voices are not ones that teach
Speaker 1: us how to regulate, then we bring those voices in
Speaker 1: and that's kind of what we end up with, and
Speaker 1: we don't have the skills to regulate our emotions. And
Speaker 1: you say that disordered eating patterns represent resourceful survival strategies
Speaker 1: for regulating emotion or physical arousal. And I think that's
Speaker 1: so important to think about with addiction, with UM eating emotionally,
Speaker 1: is that this stuff works in some way, It's a
Speaker 1: coping strategy that has worked for us in some way,
Speaker 1: shape or form. It's just become maladaptive. And you say
Speaker 1: that understanding this takes the shame out of the emotional,
Speaker 1: leading the recovery and shows us a way forward. Yes,
Speaker 1: I think that's so critical because I think all people
Speaker 1: who are struggling with any kind of addictive behavior feel
Speaker 1: a level of shame about it because they feel out
Speaker 1: of control. And I like to help them understand that,
Speaker 1: A it's not their fault. You know, often their early
Speaker 1: childhood experiences that are at play here as well as
Speaker 1: genetic uh you know, biological, neurological, and they're also genetic
Speaker 1: factors at play. So it's not your fault, UM. And
Speaker 1: also you know, these are very resourceful coping strategies, So
Speaker 1: not only is it not your fault, but you're also
Speaker 1: really creative in terms of finding a way to comfort
Speaker 1: and soothe and pleasure yourself. You know, either you found
Speaker 1: that food does it, or maybe you found that gambling
Speaker 1: does it, or drinking does it, And clearly people come
Speaker 1: to see me and um, you know, seek out help
Speaker 1: because ultimately it's not working. Um. But when we start
Speaker 1: turning to these substances and you know, process addictions, it's
Speaker 1: because we're resourceful. We've hit on something. I know. In
Speaker 1: my teens, for example, I smoked cigarettes and I didn't
Speaker 1: really understand it then. I only understood years later that
Speaker 1: I had low dopamine levels and nicotine increases the release
Speaker 1: of norap and ephron and ultimately dopamine, and so I
Speaker 1: was self medicating. I was self medicating a low level
Speaker 1: depression that I had, but I didn't know that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I just kind of gravitated towards the cigarettes like other
Speaker 1: teens did. And for some reason I gravitated and became
Speaker 1: addicted and others didn't. I didn't know anything about why
Speaker 1: until years later when I began to understand that. Ah.
Speaker 1: So that for me was like taking an antidepressant. You know,
Speaker 1: it was adjusting my brain chemistry, and that's a pretty
Speaker 1: resourceful way to adjust your brain chemistry. It's ultimately damaging
Speaker 1: and has health consequences, but it was resourceful, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I often think about addiction or the things that we
Speaker 1: do that are addictive get us to a point, help
Speaker 1: us to survive whatever it is that's happening that gets
Speaker 1: us to a point when we are then able, if
Speaker 1: we're lucky, to develop coping mechanisms that that are useful.
Speaker 1: There are a tool that gets us to a point,
Speaker 1: and they need to be discarded, but they are very
Speaker 1: useful for a period of time. And I think that's
Speaker 1: a that's an important understanding in why we do the
Speaker 1: things we do. There's one last piece of understanding about
Speaker 1: this that I want to talk about, and then I
Speaker 1: want to go into your sort of your skills that
Speaker 1: you teach for how to do the regulation. But I
Speaker 1: think this is another important piece. And you say that
Speaker 1: when we are eating emotionally or any of these other
Speaker 1: things we're doing, numbing out or distracting ourselves, that that
Speaker 1: part of us in that moment is a very very
Speaker 1: young part of us. So we are not in those
Speaker 1: moments when we're trying to disengage. We're dealing with a
Speaker 1: very young, fragile part of ourselves in those moments, and
Speaker 1: that part of the reason it can be so challenging
Speaker 1: is that that young part of doesn't respond to reason.
Speaker 1: So we're trying to reason with ourselves with like, well
Speaker 1: I shouldn't do this because of blah blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: and laying out these logical arguments. But the part of
Speaker 1: us that's kind of in charge at that point is
Speaker 1: this very young part of ourselves that does not respond
Speaker 1: to reason and logic. And I think that that's an
Speaker 1: important concept for people to understand that when there's a
Speaker 1: situation that's triggering distress, and you're a person who didn't
Speaker 1: have sufficient and consistent emotional nurturance in your early years
Speaker 1: and so your brain got wired a little bit more
Speaker 1: for high reactivity. You have a situation that's causing distress.
Speaker 1: You just had an argument with a coworker, you had
Speaker 1: an argument with your spouse, something went wrong, you know,
Speaker 1: during your day somehow you're very, very upset. You're emotionally
Speaker 1: disregulated because you're missing skills, Because you're missing those self
Speaker 1: care skills that we're going to talk about, you are
Speaker 1: stuck in the best way to think about is you're
Speaker 1: developmentally derailed. You're stuck in an earlier phase of development,
Speaker 1: and you feel very young at those times, you know,
Speaker 1: you you want to scream, you're frustrated. You know, you're overwhelmed,
Speaker 1: you're mad, you know, and most people know this state
Speaker 1: that I'm talking about, when you're just a bad place
Speaker 1: and maybe you're hurt, you're angry, you're lonely, you're frustrated,
Speaker 1: and you're experiencing a lot of emotion. Maybe you're even
Speaker 1: aware that your body is feeling very disregulated. It's very
Speaker 1: hard to try and reason with yourself at times like this.
Speaker 1: So let's say you're feeling like that and you're just
Speaker 1: ready to drive through Jack in the box and right Tonald,
Speaker 1: you know, you're ready to go through a burger joint.
Speaker 1: You're gonna get a cheesy burger and fries and a
Speaker 1: shake and like because, as we said before, you know
Speaker 1: intuitively that that will quiet the storm. If you eat
Speaker 1: all of that, it's going to quiet the storm. And
Speaker 1: you also know that no matter what you say to yourself,
Speaker 1: because you've tried, I mean, those people who are working
Speaker 1: on these things have tried to resolve these issues. So
Speaker 1: you try to talk to yourself about what the boss
Speaker 1: said or what someone else said, but the urge to
Speaker 1: disconnect and numb yourself out is so strong because that
Speaker 1: part of you is very very young, and what hasn't
Speaker 1: developed is a very mature, wise, kind, loving, nurturing parts.
Speaker 1: That's the part I call the inner nurture. That part
Speaker 1: is usually very undeveloped. What you have generally very strongly
Speaker 1: developed as an inner critic voice, maybe beating you up
Speaker 1: for what the boss said, and an inner indulging voice.
Speaker 1: That's a voice that said, yeah, let's just go to
Speaker 1: the drive through, let's just get that burger, and you know,
Speaker 1: we'll deal with dieting later or eating healthier later. So
Speaker 1: you're under the influence of an emotionally dominant part of
Speaker 1: the brain. It's called the amygdala. It's like the size
Speaker 1: and shape of an almond. And you can't reason with
Speaker 1: that part of the brain. That part of the brain
Speaker 1: doesn't respond to reason. So that's when you're going to
Speaker 1: get yourself in trouble. And that's where the skills come
Speaker 1: in in terms of learning how to build that voice
Speaker 1: that can help regulate you, help calm you down, soothe you,
Speaker 1: help you look at what's going on, help you address
Speaker 1: any self defeating thoughts you're having, and perhaps even reassure you,
Speaker 1: comfort you and give you hope. So we've got some
Speaker 1: skill building there that has to happen. You've got seven skills,
Speaker 1: you say, to develop this inner nurture or to nurture
Speaker 1: ourselves inner nurture and consists of the following seven skills,
Speaker 1: and I'll just read them real quick. There's no way
Speaker 1: we're going to get through all of them in this interview.
Speaker 1: That's why I just want to kind of get all
Speaker 1: seven of them out there now, and we'll talk about
Speaker 1: a couple of them in a little bit more detail.
Speaker 1: But the seven skills are Number one, you call pop
Speaker 1: the hood, so name and track the emotions and bodily
Speaker 1: sensations that are occurring. Step two, or skill too, is
Speaker 1: to practice self validation. Skill three is to reinforce the
Speaker 1: alliance and offer loves port and comfort to ourselves. Skill
Speaker 1: for is to get clear on needs. Skill five is
Speaker 1: to catch and reframe self defeating thoughts. Skill six is
Speaker 1: to highlight the resources that we have and provide hope
Speaker 1: to ourselves. And Skill seven is to address the needs
Speaker 1: and set nurturing limits. So let's start with skill one,
Speaker 1: which is really the fundamental skill we have to start with.
Speaker 1: You call it pop the hood. Give us a little
Speaker 1: more detail what we're doing here. It's a really basically
Speaker 1: a really simple skill, but um one that I would
Speaker 1: say many many, many people, not just emotional eaters, are
Speaker 1: missing or have poorly developed. Really, it's all about what
Speaker 1: I call self connection. It's going inside into your internal
Speaker 1: world and just like a master mechanic listening for distress,
Speaker 1: and we're basically going to be looking. We're going to
Speaker 1: be exploring our emotions and our bodily sensations. And I
Speaker 1: find people can come at this in one of two ways.
Speaker 1: Some people are not very clear on what they're feeling,
Speaker 1: what their emotions, are not so great at labeling. So
Speaker 1: with those people, I like to start with the body.
Speaker 1: You know, what are you noticing in your body? So
Speaker 1: you you just had that argument, you know with your coworker,
Speaker 1: what are you noticing? Shoulders are tight, fists are clenched,
Speaker 1: jaws tight, stomach is kind of gurgly and tight. Or
Speaker 1: other people are very good at identifying emotions. I'm really angry,
Speaker 1: I'm really hurt, I feel betrayed, I feel sad, I
Speaker 1: feel lonely, I feel frustrated, I feel overwhelmed. So the
Speaker 1: very first step is to become aware of some of
Speaker 1: your most pre signals. Your emotions and your bodily sensations,
Speaker 1: and I teach people that it's important to become aware
Speaker 1: of these. So some people say, why should I feel
Speaker 1: all that stuff? A lot of it's unpleasant. Who cares? Well?
Speaker 1: Emotions and body sensations are signals. They're like street signs,
Speaker 1: and they point us in the direction of our needs.
Speaker 1: So if you really want to solve issues, and of
Speaker 1: course you need to figure out what you need, the
Speaker 1: best way to figure out what you need is to
Speaker 1: begin with what you feel and let that take you
Speaker 1: to what you need. So we popped the hood. We
Speaker 1: we pull away from the situation that's causing distress. Maybe
Speaker 1: we're at that drive in ready to get some food,
Speaker 1: so we pull in the parking lot. Just grab a
Speaker 1: piece of paper and start by popping the hood, writing
Speaker 1: down what am I feeling now that I just had
Speaker 1: that argument with the coworker, What are the feelings I'm having,
Speaker 1: and what are the bodily sensations I'm having? Okay, And
Speaker 1: it's a very basic step, and it's a critical step,
Speaker 1: is that you begin to understand what's going on inside
Speaker 1: of yourself, what's underneath the hood. Yeah, and there's a
Speaker 1: couple of nuances here that you talk about. One is
Speaker 1: that a lot of us have a tendency to move
Speaker 1: away from unpleasant emotions by focusing on our thoughts. So
Speaker 1: we think we are identifying the emotions and sensations, but
Speaker 1: what we're really doing is we're touching them for a
Speaker 1: second and then we're me imediately back into our thought process.
Speaker 1: Can you describe kind of what that looks like and
Speaker 1: and and what to watch out for and how to
Speaker 1: handle that. Yes, I mean, I'll often have people say,
Speaker 1: I'll say, okay, so you had that interaction with your
Speaker 1: husband and you know I didn't go very well. What
Speaker 1: were you feeling? And so they might say, well, I'm
Speaker 1: feeling that he's a jerk and things will never get better.
Speaker 1: And I'll say, okay, so that's a thought he's a jerk,
Speaker 1: that's not a feeling. So when you have the argument
Speaker 1: with him, do you recall what you were feeling or
Speaker 1: what you're feeling in the moment now that we're talking
Speaker 1: about it. Well, I guess I'm feeling angry. I guess
Speaker 1: I'm feeling sad. I guess I'm feeling like our marriage
Speaker 1: will never get any better because he's not going to change. Okay,
Speaker 1: So we're back into the thoughts a little bit. So
Speaker 1: let's come back just to the feeling. So I'll say,
Speaker 1: you know, feelings are just one word, sad, mad, glad.
Speaker 1: Let's let's just stay with the feelings. And then I'll,
Speaker 1: especially for someone who jumps away to their thoughts so quickly,
Speaker 1: I'll say, when you're telling me it you feel sad,
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you're feeling that in your body or
Speaker 1: that's just kind of up in your head as a concept.
Speaker 1: And often people say, well, I'm not really feeling it, okay,
Speaker 1: So so let's go back, so sad, where do you
Speaker 1: think you might feel sad in your body? And often
Speaker 1: if we slow down, we will feel it. So the
Speaker 1: person might say, oh, now that you're asking me, I
Speaker 1: kind of feel like a heaviness in my chest. Okay.
Speaker 1: So emotion basically presents in the body first before we
Speaker 1: have labels for it. And it's great to notice the
Speaker 1: sensations even more than to find the labels, because actually
Speaker 1: labeling our emotions is even is a cognitive act. So
Speaker 1: even labeling them kind of takes us a little bit
Speaker 1: away from them. So we go back. Our Our goal
Speaker 1: is to stay present to what's happening in the body
Speaker 1: and notice how we're experiencing our emotions. And if we
Speaker 1: tend to jump away to our thoughts, say to yourself,
Speaker 1: I'm going to write down those thoughts later. I'll address
Speaker 1: those thoughts later. Right now, I want to go back
Speaker 1: to what am I feeling after I just had that
Speaker 1: discussion with my mother. Okay, so we just stay present.
Speaker 1: We're working on building the skill of not only identifying
Speaker 1: emotions and sensations, but tolerating them, being able to sit
Speaker 1: with emotions and sensations, even the big ones like shame
Speaker 1: or guilt, you know, or serious grief, right, being able
Speaker 1: to tolerate emotions, noticing they're not going to kill us, right,
Speaker 1: we can actually experience them and move through them. And
Speaker 1: that's where real recovery is. Right. And you mentioned also
Speaker 1: that there are some times that we are too emotionally
Speaker 1: overwrought to really do this process very well. And you
Speaker 1: recommend in times like that that we use what you
Speaker 1: call soothing behaviors to restore ourselves to calm, not to
Speaker 1: distract us from our feelings, but to get us back
Speaker 1: to a place that's a little bit more calm so
Speaker 1: that we are able to pop the hood. As you say,
Speaker 1: what are some examples of soothing behaviors or explain you
Speaker 1: know how someone might know. Okay, you know what, I
Speaker 1: can't pop the hood just yet, because you know there's
Speaker 1: a ton of smoke still rolling out from underneath the hood.
Speaker 1: I better soothe this a little bit first. When when
Speaker 1: do you know when that's a good idea? And what
Speaker 1: are a couple of things that that we might do
Speaker 1: that are soothing but not distracting? Well, I think you
Speaker 1: would know basically if you're having really big feelings, right
Speaker 1: and you feel kind of like, you know, even just
Speaker 1: labeling them, you're you're so disregulated. So let's say I'm
Speaker 1: thinking of an example of a client who came back
Speaker 1: from a work situation where she felt like someone kind
Speaker 1: of attacked her and shamed her in a meeting, and
Speaker 1: so just feeling very anxious and kind of chaotic inside,
Speaker 1: and so just sitting down to identify her feelings, her
Speaker 1: body is feeling so disregulated, so anxious agitated, that it's
Speaker 1: she can't clear her head to do any of this
Speaker 1: kind of work in the way we're talking. So with
Speaker 1: someone like that, I would want her to perhaps do
Speaker 1: a little grounding work, sit in a chair where their
Speaker 1: feet flat on the floor, maybe your hands on her lap,
Speaker 1: and just begin to take some deep breaths, you know,
Speaker 1: really noticing the breath going in and the breath going out.
Speaker 1: And she can stick with that, or she can even
Speaker 1: start a little bit of relaxation, like noticing what's happening
Speaker 1: in her feet, kind of tense and relax the feet,
Speaker 1: tense and relax the calves, and just doing a little
Speaker 1: guided relaxation in the body. Even things like getting into
Speaker 1: some comfortable clothes, um, making a cup of tea, sitting
Speaker 1: in a comfortable chair. For some people, just listening to
Speaker 1: a little bit of soothing music is a good way
Speaker 1: to start. We can even use what I call soothing gestures.
Speaker 1: You can touch your face, you can stroke from your
Speaker 1: shoulders to your elbows, you know, just kind of gently
Speaker 1: giving yourself like a hug. Anything that begins to calm you.
Speaker 1: You might lay down in a fetal position and just
Speaker 1: kind of hold yourself. For some people, that's just getting still.
Speaker 1: Anything that's going to calm the storm a little bit.
Speaker 1: The idea here is not to do something that's distracting.
Speaker 1: So we don't want to just go read a book.
Speaker 1: Although if a little reading calms you down, that's fine,
Speaker 1: but our goal isn't to just go do another activity.
Speaker 1: Our goal is to calm down enough to begin our skill, uh,
Speaker 1: to begin working our skills. So to begin popping the hood. Great,
Speaker 1: let's talk about skill number two, to practice self validation. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, all of these skills are strategically developed and
Speaker 1: they go in a particular order because what I want
Speaker 1: my reader to do is to begin connecting to herself, okay,
Speaker 1: and at the same time begin to develop that inner
Speaker 1: nurturing voice. So, as I said before, the majority of
Speaker 1: emotional eaters, and I would say the majority of people
Speaker 1: who use any kind of an addiction typically do not
Speaker 1: have a very well developed inner nurturing voice. And so
Speaker 1: how are we going to develop a voice like that?
Speaker 1: If we didn't hear enough of it when we were younger,
Speaker 1: we didn't have enough exposure to it, how are we
Speaker 1: going to develop it. We're going to have to kind
Speaker 1: of fake it till we make it. So we're gonna
Speaker 1: have to practice a voice. So all the skills that
Speaker 1: I teach are designed to help you slowly build that voice.
Speaker 1: So after we popped the hood, we're going to practice
Speaker 1: skill number two called self validation, because that's going to
Speaker 1: get you talking to yourself from breaking yourself apart into
Speaker 1: two parts, if you will. So there's that young part
Speaker 1: that says, you know, I feel really sad and I
Speaker 1: feel really lonely, and then there's that nurturing parts that's
Speaker 1: going to say, it makes sense to feel sad and
Speaker 1: lonely in this situation, and it's okay to have those feelings.
Speaker 1: So we're going to accomplish a lot of things with
Speaker 1: that self validation A. We're going to be building that
Speaker 1: voice that's critical. We need to build that inter nurturing voice.
Speaker 1: But we're also going to be soothing ourselves. Uh. Self
Speaker 1: validation is soothing and comforting, So we're comforting ourselves. We're
Speaker 1: soothing ourselves at the same time we're building the voice
Speaker 1: we need to build, right, and this is such a
Speaker 1: useful step to be able to develop that internal voice
Speaker 1: that speaks to ourselves more kindly, that as you say,
Speaker 1: offers understanding and also says, you know, it's okay for
Speaker 1: what's happening to be to be happening. Yes, and I
Speaker 1: you know I call validation. I say validation is a
Speaker 1: development significant meaning most of us didn't get enough validation.
Speaker 1: We didn't get enough of some and saying it's okay
Speaker 1: to feel that way and it makes sense. Understanding and
Speaker 1: acceptance is what validation is all about. So we're going
Speaker 1: to learn how to validate what we feel and what
Speaker 1: we think, and we're going to learn to say that
Speaker 1: every emotion is valid, every thought is valid, every sensation
Speaker 1: is valid. They're all understandable in a context, they're all
Speaker 1: acceptable to have. One of the things I like about
Speaker 1: the book is it has a lot of useful phrases
Speaker 1: in there for those who don't know how to do this.
Speaker 1: You know, what, what sort of things should I say
Speaker 1: to myself? Like, like you said, if we haven't really
Speaker 1: got a lot of experience and in either doing it
Speaker 1: for ourselves or having somebody do it for us, or
Speaker 1: seeing it modeled, You've got a lot of phrases in
Speaker 1: there that we can use and try on for size.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about another piece of this that
Speaker 1: you bring up that I think is really really useful.
Speaker 1: You say, how can I practice self validation when I'm
Speaker 1: disappointed in myself? So, for example, I've just eaten an
Speaker 1: entire carton of ice cream or polished off a tray
Speaker 1: of brownies. In those moments, it feels difficult to do
Speaker 1: self validation because we really feel bad about what just happened.
Speaker 1: And you talk about how it's important that we've we're
Speaker 1: validating the feelings behind the behavior, not the behavior itself. Right,
Speaker 1: So we're not saying, you, go, girl, you rock e
Speaker 1: brownies every night, that's the thing to do. You know,
Speaker 1: we're not we're not validating the behavior. We're validating that.
Speaker 1: You know, the reason you baked the tray of brownies
Speaker 1: and ate the whole thing is because you were feeling
Speaker 1: so lonely on Friday night and you were feeling so
Speaker 1: upset with that conversation with your father, and that's why,
Speaker 1: you know, you didn't feel like there was any other
Speaker 1: way that you could comfort yourself. And that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 1: You know, we're learning skills and it's okay that that's
Speaker 1: what you're feeling. Right, So we're not so much validating
Speaker 1: the behavior. We're not we're not making it terrible and wrong,
Speaker 1: you know to have slip ups either, um, But basically
Speaker 1: we're validating what we're feeling, and that we were going
Speaker 1: through a pretty rough time and that's why we turned
Speaker 1: to our favorite source of comfort. And I think this
Speaker 1: is such a key point, though, because when we disappoint
Speaker 1: ourselves with by by acting out in whatever our addiction
Speaker 1: or or or bad behavior is, it's it's such a
Speaker 1: fine line to find that middle ground where we're not,
Speaker 1: you know, berating ourselves endlessly over the behavior, and yet
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel okay at the same way to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's fine, no big deal, right. And I like this
Speaker 1: because it threads the needle right through the middle way
Speaker 1: of that which is all right, I'm acknowledging that there's
Speaker 1: something going on emotionally that is causing me to act
Speaker 1: that way, and I'm validating that that it was okay
Speaker 1: to feel that way, that it's normal to feel that way,
Speaker 1: but not the behavior itself. And I just think that's
Speaker 1: such a useful point, right, And even being able to say,
Speaker 1: as we did earlier, the behavior even itself was resourceful.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not what I want to be doing,
Speaker 1: it's not what I want to continue to be doing,
Speaker 1: but it's still an old sourceful way things that I
Speaker 1: turned to until I've got these skills built. It's how
Speaker 1: I've been learning to take care of myself. And I
Speaker 1: think what I want to highlight here what self validation
Speaker 1: is all about, and the reason it's not so much
Speaker 1: about condoning the behavior, but what it's really all about
Speaker 1: is self compassion, and it's about self acceptance. Like I
Speaker 1: accept me right where I am today, and today I'm
Speaker 1: still using food, and so I accept that that's where
Speaker 1: I am now, and I have compassion for myself with
Speaker 1: where I'm at, and that doesn't mean I'm not moving
Speaker 1: forward or I can't move forward, but I accept right
Speaker 1: where I'm at right now. And this all points to
Speaker 1: this sort of idea that you're you're pointing out here
Speaker 1: around we are doing these things because of our lack
Speaker 1: of ability to regulate emotion. We can't handle the way
Speaker 1: we feel, and so we act out in one way
Speaker 1: or other in a way that has in the past
Speaker 1: for us. And this points to why most of the
Speaker 1: approaches to getting better from these things don't work, because
Speaker 1: it's that it's that classic. I just did something that
Speaker 1: I feel bad about, so I just breate myself more
Speaker 1: and more so now I feel worse about myself, and
Speaker 1: the way that I deal with feeling worse about myself
Speaker 1: is to eat or do drugs, and then I do that,
Speaker 1: and then I feel worse about myself, and now I
Speaker 1: make that worse by you know, you know, attacking myself again,
Speaker 1: and on and on and on, and this is a
Speaker 1: way to sort of break part of that cycle. We
Speaker 1: may not be at the point where we can fully
Speaker 1: break the behavioral part of the cycle, but we start
Speaker 1: to break the emotional part of the cycle, and we
Speaker 1: start to try and process emotions in a different way, right,
Speaker 1: And that's why you know, the skill number three that's
Speaker 1: coming up is so critical, which is where you're going
Speaker 1: to reinforce the alliance between a loving, kind, nurturing, wise
Speaker 1: part of yourself. Even if you don't even feel like
Speaker 1: there's anything like that inside of you, you're going to
Speaker 1: begin to develop that, and you're going to form an
Speaker 1: alliance between that part of you and the part of
Speaker 1: you that says, you know, I'm stuck in this vicious cycle.
Speaker 1: I can't I can't stand the way I feel, and
Speaker 1: I turned to food or alcohol or drugs to numb
Speaker 1: it out, and then I feel so terrible about myself
Speaker 1: and then I'm going to do it again because I
Speaker 1: feel so terrible about myself. And then there's this part
Speaker 1: of you. And over time, this part of you may
Speaker 1: even morph into a spiritual part of you, maybe a
Speaker 1: higher self or maybe even your angels or God or
Speaker 1: whatever you would call it, part of you that that's
Speaker 1: there with you down in the bottom pit, right sitting
Speaker 1: down in the pit with you, saying I'm right here
Speaker 1: with you, babe. I know how terrible it feels. You're
Speaker 1: not alone. I love you, I care about you, I'm
Speaker 1: with you. We're going to get through this together, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think that is so critical to develop that
Speaker 1: part of yourself, a higher part of yourself, whatever that
Speaker 1: looks like to each person, but a part of you
Speaker 1: that when you're in the darkest nights of your soul,
Speaker 1: that you don't feel alone. I agree that is such
Speaker 1: a critical thing to be able to do, is to
Speaker 1: offer love, support, comfort to ourselves when we're in the
Speaker 1: midst of difficult situations. It's great when we can get
Speaker 1: it from others. And and later in the book you
Speaker 1: talk about that and so this isn't like, oh, I
Speaker 1: have to do all of this myself, all of the time,
Speaker 1: but an essential skill is to be able to deliver
Speaker 1: it to ourselves in moments of crisis when maybe there
Speaker 1: aren't other people available, or we don't have those those
Speaker 1: sorts of resources in our lives, or if even if
Speaker 1: we do, we risk draining people if we're coming to
Speaker 1: them all the time, you know, to do the comforting
Speaker 1: and soothing work that we need. You know, I found
Speaker 1: in my own journey, Um, I certainly didn't have a
Speaker 1: lot of people that I could turn to for that,
Speaker 1: and I tried. I tried to pull it off of people,
Speaker 1: you know, at different points in my life, tried to
Speaker 1: get it from other people. And when I was really
Speaker 1: beginning to turn within and building that inner supportive voice,
Speaker 1: what what I started to feel was that I and
Speaker 1: it had and it became kind of consistent that I
Speaker 1: always kind of wanted to go home first and take
Speaker 1: care of my own needs. I processed through what I
Speaker 1: was feeling and kind of get clear on everything even
Speaker 1: before I shared it with anyone else, And to this day,
Speaker 1: when something's bothering me, I typically don't want to talk
Speaker 1: to anyone until I've kind of sat with it and
Speaker 1: really kind of figured out all that I'm feeling and
Speaker 1: brought my inner nurture in and soothed and comforted myself
Speaker 1: because then I talked about this in the book. You know,
Speaker 1: typically when we go to other people, they often offer
Speaker 1: a lot of advice and UM problem solving, and many
Speaker 1: people are not that great at helping you process through
Speaker 1: your emotion, so you turn to other people and sometimes
Speaker 1: you don't really learn the skills you need to learn. Well,
Speaker 1: we are at the end of our time here, Julie.
Speaker 1: I will have links in the show notes to where
Speaker 1: people can find your book where they can learn the
Speaker 1: rest of the skills. You and I are going to
Speaker 1: continue the conversation in some of the post show conversation.
Speaker 1: I specifically want to talk about catching and reframing self
Speaker 1: defeating thoughts. You know, how do we work with the
Speaker 1: self defeating thoughts that come up? You and I will
Speaker 1: UM continue listeners if you're interested in that. UM supporters
Speaker 1: of the show get access to the post show conversation.
Speaker 1: You can go to one you feed dot net slash
Speaker 1: support and get access to that and you can listen
Speaker 1: to it in your podcast player. But Julie, thank you
Speaker 1: so much. The book was really really helpful and as
Speaker 1: I said, There will be links in the show notes
Speaker 1: to where listeners can get a copy of it. It's
Speaker 1: been my pleasure. I'm glad that I could join you today.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Okay, bye bye. If what you
Speaker 1: just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a
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