1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: And today we're talking about bad kids, but not just 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: bad kids. That this idea of the evil child or 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: the psychopathic child. To use the French the enfante teri 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: blay right, which comes from the title of the gene 8 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: cock to the novel that's en fonts Terry blows from. 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: It's a trope that we see again and again in fiction. 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: Just to name a few, There's Damien from the Omen 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: bad Kid, not really his fault. He's the anti Christ, right, 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: it can't be helped. They are the kids from the 13 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: Village of the Damned. I seem to remember they were 14 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: aliens or something. Spoilers all around here. Sorry, there's the 15 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: bad Seed personal favorite. As a little about this one. Okay, 16 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: so this is I guess maybe did start as the 17 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: stage play, but I have seen the movie and it 18 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: is set up stage play, and it's very kitchy, and 19 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: it centers around this little girl. I don't know, maybe 20 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: she's seven years old. I don't remember the details. I 21 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: can't remember her name. But she's terrifying because here is 22 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: this little blonde, perky girl with long braids. You know, 23 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: she's got the checked dress on and kind of like 24 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: a dream child. The dream child. Yeah, I mean she 25 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: talks to adults and she smiles and she's so sweet. 26 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: But then you began to see that this child is 27 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: like cold and calculating, and she wants some of their 28 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: kids pin like the pen lapel pin, and she murders 29 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: for it. It is very convincing, even though it's you know, 30 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: at the time, it's very kitchy. But what I think 31 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: it's fascinating about that movie is that it definitely captures 32 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: an era in which society was starting to look more 33 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: inward and really looking at the dark side of the 34 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: human nature. You've got the Betty Page going on. You 35 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: begin to see more images of what people are thinking 36 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: about that's not some nineteen fifties. Yeah, you know, the 37 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: shades of Santa Masochism coming out, or at least people 38 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: beginning to say like, well, this is an interesting part 39 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: of our experience or what we're thinking anyway, there's this 40 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: sort of delving into the human mind, into the psyche, 41 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, people start to consider children 42 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: as not necessarily these innocent butterflies of our human nature, 43 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: but possibly you know, containing the seeds of well, in 44 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: this case, the bad seed of psychopathy. Yeah, and this 45 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: idea too, that the child is the seed of a 46 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: bad person to come, that all the things that are 47 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: immoral are corrupt in the eventual adult, are present in 48 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: the child. Other examples from fiction that are kind of fun. 49 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: There's the good Son I believe that was Macaulay Culkin. Yes, psychopath. 50 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: There's The Ring where the character in the ring video 51 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: is a ghost of a rather troubled child. There's Peter 52 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: Wiggan and orson Scott Cards Game, who likes to torture 53 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: animals to death and physically and mentally torment his siblings 54 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: highly recommended his game. By the way, if you haven't 55 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: read that, Ray Bradberry had a couple of short stories 56 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: Small Assassin personifies concept I've read. If we look to 57 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: Harry Potter, there's good old Tom Riddle and pretty much 58 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: most of the Slytherin Gang. I guess, yeah, varying shades 59 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: of bad seededness. In the doone universe, there's Aaliyah and 60 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: Stephen King's The Dark Tower series there's Mordred at least 61 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: early on when you've seen as a kid, and then 62 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: on Family Guy, they're Stewiet Griffin, kind of a comedic 63 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: take on the idea of the nefarious, uber intelligent and 64 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: uber manipulative youngster. You forgot the Full House twins? Oh yes, 65 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: those girls that grew up to be actresses right right, right? 66 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: Or actually they just billionaires, that's where they grew up 67 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: to be. We want to look into this idea, this 68 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: idea of nature versus nurture, about whether or not this 69 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: is something that's hardwired in individuals. And this came to 70 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: our attention recently because we read an article from New 71 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: York Times called Can You Call a nine year old 72 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: a Psychopath? Yeah? By Jennifer con Nice, long in depth 73 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: article excellent reading. Will include a link to it in 74 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: the blog post that accompanies this podcast, and it raised 75 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,119 Speaker 1: a lot of questions, like I saw spinoff blog post 76 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: spinoff stories about this in other in US because it 77 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: really examines the idea, is it possible that a child 78 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: that has various emotional and behavioral problems is in fact 79 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: not just an eventual psychopath, that they already have the 80 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: psychopathic qualities, right, and we'll talk about that a little 81 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: bit more and why that's actually problematic to even ask 82 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: the question. But let's discuss psychopathy and the fact that 83 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: on some level we are all psychopaths. Right, not all 84 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: the time, because that would actually make us true psychopath 85 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: but all of us are guilty of lying at one 86 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: time or another, or manipulating someone, or feeling a lack 87 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: of empathy in a situation. But these are usually fleeting 88 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: moments for most of us. It's not a constant state. Well, 89 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: the more you look at psychopathy, it it kind of 90 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: feels like like we're on a board game. Like society 91 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: is this board game, and they are rules, they're hard 92 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: and fast rules about what you can do, and then 93 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: there's this layer of honor code on top of it. 94 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: There's very much in tune with what we're ethically capable 95 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: of doing and willing to do. And so to a 96 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: certain extent, psychopathic sociopathic individuals are just sort of free 97 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: of this top level of honor system, right right, Like 98 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: they're free of the constraints in a way, you know, 99 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: in a certain way, they are more free in society 100 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: to exploit the lower level of rules and ignore the 101 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: higher honor system level of rules. Well, that's what happens, right, 102 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: if you don't react to shame, if you're not interested 103 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: in how someone perceives you, if you don't have any empathy. Yeah, 104 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: no impulse control, No impulse control, although you can still 105 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: be calculating and have a measure of impulse control if 106 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: if the reward is there, you just don't care about 107 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: getting caught. Yeah, right, that's what you're saying. That's the 108 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: sort of alternate game here. Like to put this in 109 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: like twinkie terms, you would have no shame about eating 110 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: six twinkies. Yeah, there would be no impulse control to 111 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: kick in and say I shouldn't eat six twinkies. You 112 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: would lie to get that fifth and six twinkie. You 113 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,559 Speaker 1: would steal the fifth and six twinkie from a friend, 114 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: a co worker I supposed loved one, and then if 115 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: confronted about it, you'd be like, yeah, I ate six twinkies, 116 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: what are wow? So all we need really is such 117 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: twin commater to see where we fall on this spectrum. 118 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: You would charm somebody for the twinkie. You would kill 119 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: for a twinkie because you're a getting removed from that 120 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: top layer of rules concerning twinkie acquisition. All right, Okay, 121 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: I think this this has legs that we need to 122 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,799 Speaker 1: explore later. But let's talk a little bit more about 123 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 1: the cost of psychopathy. Recent estimate by the neuroscientists can't 124 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: keep placed the national costs of psychopathy at four hundred 125 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: and sixty billion dollars a year. It's about ten times 126 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: the cost of depression. And in part that is because 127 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: psychopaths tend to be arrested repeatedly. Again, lack of shame, 128 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: lack of concern for getting caught. These tend to be 129 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: elements that land people into jail, right, Yeah, because it 130 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: comes down to there are things I want in life. 131 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: I don't feel held back from doing what I need 132 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: to do to get them, and then confronted by it. Yeah, 133 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: I did this, so I did this horrible thing. Also, 134 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: it's worth pointing out psychopaths for estimated to make up 135 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: one percent of the population the general population general population 136 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: going to prison, however, the offenders, and that's a disproportionate 137 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: the number of the brutal crimes and violent offenses and murders. Yeah, 138 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: and let's unpack the definition of this. Broadly speaking, there 139 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: are people who use manipulation, violence, and intimidation to control 140 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: others and satisfy selfish needs. They can be intelligent and 141 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: highly charismatic narcissistic, but they display a chronic inability to 142 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: feel guilt, as we said, remorse or anxiety, and this 143 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: is important anxiety. We'll talk about that about their actions. 144 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: And as a result, they tend to why much of 145 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: the time and sometimes for no reason at all. Yeah, 146 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like all psychopaths are gonna be murders, 147 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: and many of them are going to lead train wrecked, 148 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: self absorbed lives. Or they may be in the financial 149 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: world exactly. There may be in a in a world 150 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: where all of the things that are quote unquote wrong 151 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: with them line up perfectly with the values of that 152 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: given institution, right well, And there are some people who 153 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: say that Bernie made Off, for example, is a good 154 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: example of someone who is a psychopath just kind of 155 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: cruising around in the financial world, certainly building people o 156 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: their money, not feeling any shame. And it made me 157 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: think about this documentary called The Corporation, and it talks about, well, 158 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: if you were to take a corporation and run it 159 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: through as a person through a battery and our personality 160 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: according to them. According to the law, if you're to 161 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: run them through a battery personality test, a corporation will 162 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: come out as a just steal cold psychopath. There's no if, 163 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: ands or buts about it. So it is interesting to 164 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: know that there are some psychopathic personalities that do gravitate 165 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: toward the financial world. That is not to say that 166 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: people in the financial world, which is a vast widespread 167 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: that everybody in it is a psychopath. That's far from 168 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: what we're saying. We're just saying that, you know, it 169 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: does line up a bit. Yeah, the quick aside, You know, 170 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: we should really come back and do an episode on 171 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: personhood at some point. There are number of different areas 172 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: to explore there. So let us know if you're interested 173 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: in that, Let's look at the brain. Let's look at 174 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: the brain and psychopathy. What exactly do we think is 175 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: going on in the mind that causes this rule breaking 176 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: system of behavior to surface. Well, if we look at 177 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: m r I scans on the brain and brains of 178 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: adult psychopaths, we can see significant anatomical differences in certain areas. 179 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: For instance, there's a smaller subgenual cortex and a five 180 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: to ten percent reduction in brain density in portions of 181 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: the paralympics system. These are regions of the brain associated 182 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: with empathy and social values. So again very much that 183 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: top level of honor system rules. Yeah, and really those 184 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: are the parts that are active in moral decision making. 185 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: According to James Blair, a cognitive neuroscientists at the National 186 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: Institute of Mental Health, two of these areas, the orbitofrontal 187 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: cortex and the caudate are critical for reinforcing positive outcomes 188 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: and discouraging negative ones and callous, unemotional children. And we'll 189 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: talk about this, that's the term for what you would 190 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: maybe say pre psychopathic children. Blair says that connection may 191 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: be defective, with negative feedback not registering the way that 192 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: it would in a normal brain. And that's an interesting 193 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: way to look at this. You know, the operating system 194 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: is a bit off. Researchers have also linked coblad behaviors 195 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: to low levels of cortisol and below normal functionings of 196 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: the amigola. Always talked about the amigola before. This is 197 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: a portion of the brain that processes fear and other 198 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: aversive social emotions such as shame. We discussed there's a 199 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: lack of shame six no shame, right, And we know 200 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: that cortisol is there are hormone that is related to stress, right, 201 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: So if you're fearful of something, if you have anxiety, 202 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: of course your cortisol levels would shoot up. And that 203 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: is what I think is so interesting about this is 204 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: that these are below level, these kids and adults who 205 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: will kids that maybe I should say psychopaths or pre psychopaths, 206 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: and adults that have the profile, they actually have sort 207 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: of insensitivity to this anxiety. There is one study that 208 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: compared the criminal records of twenty three year olds with 209 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: their sensitivity to unpleasant stimula at age three. And that study, 210 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: the three year olds were played a simple tone and 211 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: then exposed to a brief blast of unpleasant white noise. 212 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: And though all the children developed the ability to anticipate 213 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: this going on um, most of the toddlers who went 214 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: on to become criminals as adults didn't show the same 215 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: signs of a version. And we're talking about tensing or 216 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: sweating when the advanced tone was played. So again here's 217 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: this idea that it's physiological, that it is something in 218 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 1: the brain that's just not processing fear, and in fact, 219 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: we know too that in psychopath that it's harder for 220 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 1: them to recognize fear and others as well. So there 221 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: also is this idea that psychopathy might be a learning disability, 222 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: which again is a different way to come at this subject, 223 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: and I think it's really interesting to come in it 224 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: this way because the consensus really is is that there's 225 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: no treatment for psychopathy. Right, it's a dead end road. 226 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: There's nothing that someone can do, behavioral or pharmaceutical, and 227 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: that's really depressing, right. But Joseph Newman believes that it 228 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: is a type of learning disability or informational processing deficit 229 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: that makes individuals oblivious to the implications of their actions, 230 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: but just when their focus on task that promised instant reward. 231 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: So what we're saying here is that when there isn't 232 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 1: that instant reward, they can sometimes engage in empathy or 233 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: have a little bit more of an understanding of the situation. 234 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: But if there is that instant reward, all bets are off. 235 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: In a study he repeated in different prison populations, Newman 236 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: observed how quickly psychopathic and non psychopathic individuals responded to 237 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: a series of mislabeled images. So he'd have a drawing 238 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: of a pig with a word dog on it super 239 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: imposed on it, and then researchers would flash each image 240 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: and then they would time how long it took for 241 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: subjects to name what they saw. So the really interesting 242 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 1: thing here is that non psychopathic subjects subconsciously stumbled on 243 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: the mislabeled images and they took longer to name the images. 244 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: But the psychopathic subdors barely noticed. The discrepancy wasn't important 245 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: to them, and they consistently answered more quickly. So what's 246 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: really cool about this cool interesting about the study is 247 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: that it doesn't have anything to do with fear or anxiety, 248 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: and this is what people have been for gusing on 249 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: in the past. So the idea is that it supports 250 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: this notion that a psychological deficit could be at play, 251 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 1: and this is what Newman says. He says, people think 252 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: psychopaths are just callous and without fear, but there is 253 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: definitely something more going on. When emotions are their primary focus, 254 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: we see that psychopathic individuals show a normal emotional response, 255 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 1: but when they're focused on something else, they become insensitive 256 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: to emotions entirely. So a lot of it is just 257 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: what happens to be their focus. So again there's this 258 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: idea that you could get in, you could intervene, you 259 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: could change the hard wiring, especially if you get in 260 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: there early enough. So we're gonna take a quick break, 261 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we're going to really get 262 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: into the idea of callous and unemotional children and the 263 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: idea that we could potentially find psychopaths while their children 264 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: and actually do something about it while their minds are 265 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: still forming. All Right, we're back. One thing that my 266 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: mind kept coming back to is we were looking at 267 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: this podcast was the show Madness, which I know you've 268 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: seen a few episo as of um and I remained 269 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: pretty current on it. Great television show, very deep, very 270 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: into its characters. But the producer, Michael Winer has said 271 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: in a few different interviews that his approach to the 272 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: children on the show, the child characters on the show, 273 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: is to approach them as creatures capable of the full 274 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: range of human emotion. Their children. Yes, But and even 275 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: if they're treated as this kind of second class creature, 276 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: this unfinished person, uh, they're they're still there are things 277 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: in life. They want their things in life. They're afraid 278 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: of that. They're anxious about that, they're scared of that, 279 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: they're trying to figure out, and so they're processing this 280 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: adult world around them. They're trying to understand it, but 281 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: they don't necessarily have all the tools, um all the 282 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: emotional tools to deal with it that adults have. So 283 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: I think it's important to really go into any examination 284 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: of how children are thinking with that in mind, that 285 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: there is a lot going on and and a lot 286 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: more going on than just the surface level of childhood simplicity. 287 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: It's easy to look back on our childhoods and just 288 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: see it in the simple terms. Well, and a lot 289 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: of child psychologists will say to that. The reason why 290 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: it's so important to have a strong foundation for a 291 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: child is that by age five, a lot of the 292 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: way that they perceive the world and understand the world 293 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: is already established really strongly. And it makes sense because 294 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: just as you said, like you know, all that stimula 295 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: is still going to bombard them, they're still going to 296 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: have all the same abilities that the adults do in 297 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: terms of Okay, I perceive this, I see this, but 298 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: not a context and not the tools for it. So 299 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: that is really why there is this level of flexibility 300 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: to change your destiny right before this age five, and 301 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: why it is so important that we create these positive blueprints. 302 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: And that's why repetition is so important at that age too. 303 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: And I see that in my own daughter. She's constantly 304 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: playing out all these different scenarios because she's trying to 305 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: get a hold on what reality is. So what happens 306 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: when you have a kid and the idea hears that 307 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: callous unemotional children again, this is the term for what 308 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: you could say is pre psychopath that you can actually 309 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: sort of identify them as young as five years old 310 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: right now. One of the problems with any of this 311 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: identification is of course that again children are capable of 312 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: all these human emotions. They are very complex individuals. It 313 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: is very easy to diagnose some of their actions as 314 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: psychotic or psychopathic because they are going to have issues 315 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: with anger and issues with testing their boundaries, and a 316 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: lot of this just falls under the normal parameters of 317 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: what it is to be a child. So you get 318 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: into questions were like, all right, is this child truly 319 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: a psychopath? I mean, are these actual callous unemotional traits 320 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: in this child or are they simply lashing out an 321 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: acceptable fashion? For instance, when you act out as a 322 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: child and you're getting a rise out of people say 323 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: you're angering your mom or your dad. You're exercising a 324 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: certain amount of control in a universe that you may 325 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,119 Speaker 1: not feel that in control of. Again, it's a repetition 326 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: to what if I do this over and over again, 327 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: what's going to happen? It's testing the boundaries and you right, 328 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: this like some of this is such a great area 329 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: because kids are naturally narcissists and impulsive, So you can't 330 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: look at a kid and say, oh, that's a psychopath 331 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: right there. Yeah, but I mean up to a certain age, 332 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: children are not really capable of empathy. They would fail 333 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: that Blade Runner Android tests New play Runner coming out, 334 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: by the way, really I just read that the other 335 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: really Scott miss thinking about it anyway, Well, let's see 336 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: how Prometheist does first. Yeah, Okay, here's the deal. There 337 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 1: is no standard test for psychopathy and children, which probably 338 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: isn't a surprise because this isn't really all that well 339 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: studied and hasn't been studied long enough as well, because 340 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: with any of these topics, you need to be able 341 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 1: to look at a child's development over time or an 342 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 1: individuals development over time, to actually accurately evaluate what's happening. 343 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: But the psychologist do think it is a distinct neurological condition. 344 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: The psychologist Dan Washbush, He's is the person in the article. 345 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: Actually that's the main focus here. In terms of treatment. 346 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: He uses a combination of psychological exams and teacher and 347 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: family rating scales, including the Inventory of callous unimentional traits, 348 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: the Child Psychopathy Scale, and a modified version of the 349 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: Antisocial Process Screening Device. And these are all tools that 350 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: are designed to measure the cold predatory conduct most closely 351 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 1: associated with adult psychopathy. That is from the article that 352 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: we talked about. And a lot of this is measuring 353 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 1: some of these things we discussed earlier, for instance, so 354 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: what extent are they manipulating people? And again you look 355 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: at children, manipulation is part of it. It's testing, it's 356 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: testing boundaries. And in some cases, take children who have 357 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: spent any time in institutionalized care in an orphanage. There 358 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: in a situation where you're having to employ survival tactics 359 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: in this environment because you're dealing with in many cases 360 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: with a certain amount of stimuli deprivation, be that emotional 361 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: deprivation or sensory deprivation. So one may act out either 362 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: in a manipulative fashion, so in a charming fashion and 363 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: overly charming fashion to get some sort of an adult attention, 364 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: or may act out in an adverse way because negative 365 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: attention is still preferred. You no attention. It's endlessly complex. 366 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: When you start looking at the behaviors of children in 367 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 1: the formation of the childhood mind, you're absolutely right because, 368 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: as you said, if you're in a situation you're a 369 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: child and you don't, like say, an orphanage, and you 370 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: don't ever have a deep connection with an adult that 371 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: you can trust, that you feel like you can trust, 372 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: then that's something to see if narcissism. Right there, we 373 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: already know that. We know that if kids don't make 374 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: that connection, they start to turn inward, and that's really 375 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,360 Speaker 1: what happens with budding narcissists. That's different from a psychopath, right, 376 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: So again it muddies the waters. How do you really 377 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: determine whether or not a child is pretty psychopathic. Let's 378 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: have a couple of examples of what we're talking about, 379 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: and these are both from that article, and the first 380 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: one is talking about this woman Anne and her husband 381 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: and their child, Michael and he is nine years old now, 382 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: but at age five she began to see a very like, cold, 383 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: calculating part of his personality emerge. And this is a 384 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: good example. She says that she recalled one argument over 385 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: homework assignment when her son, Michael, shrieked and wept a 386 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: she tried to reason with him. Quote, I said, Michael, 387 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: remember the brainstorming we did yesterday. All you have to 388 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,719 Speaker 1: do is take your thoughts from that and turn them 389 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: into sences and you're done. He's still screaming bloody murder. 390 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: So I say, Michael, I thought he brings from this 391 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: so we could avoid all this drama today. He stopped 392 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: dead in the middle of screaming, turned to me and said, 393 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: in this flat adult voice, Well, you didn't think that 394 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: through very clearly than did you. Okay, that's creepy, right, Well, 395 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: I mean, but how many times has your child said 396 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: something creepy? I mean, well inadvertently, But she's never turned 397 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: to me said, mother, did you really think I'd eat 398 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: the cream corn? You really think that through? I mean, 399 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's and I think what she's saying 400 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: is that here's this child screaming completely out of control, 401 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 1: right this is that impulse control thing, but then snaps 402 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: to this other personality and is really attacking her parenting skills. 403 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: So there's like this level of manipulation that's going on 404 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: at a very young child that is a little bit odd, yes, now, 405 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: And it's also important to its stress here that this 406 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: is not like, oh, the kids started acting up one 407 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: day and the next thing, it's this article in the 408 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: New York Times. Exactly. They hadn't seen a number of therapists. 409 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: They had gone to a number of different sources. They 410 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: read book after book on the topic. So and the 411 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: jury is still out. They're not saying that this kid 412 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: is you know, they're saying he's callous, unemotional. But there's 413 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: this idea because his father, and we'll talk about this 414 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: heredity in this, that his father had some anti social 415 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: leanings as a child too, So there's this hope that 416 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: he can sort of change his course with some intervention. 417 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 1: The second example is a nine year old boy named 418 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Bailey who pushed a toddler into the deep end 419 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: of a motel swimming pool in Florida. As the boy 420 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: struggled and sank to the bottom, Bailey pulled up a 421 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: chair to watch. Questioned by the police afterward, Bailey explained 422 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: that he was just curious to see someone drowned, and 423 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: when he was taken into custody, he seemed untroubled by 424 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: the prospect of jail, but was pleased to be the 425 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: center of attention. Again, we're not trying to scare anybody, 426 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: but we're just saying, like this, it's really hard to 427 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: crack jokes in an episode like this. Yeah, you really 428 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,719 Speaker 1: want to say something funny, but what can you say 429 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: about that? Yeah, this just I mean, you know that 430 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: that's unsettling, that's chilling. But those are the markers of 431 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: what we you would say, a kid who was really 432 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: sort of off the charts in terms of callous, unemotional behavior. 433 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: Here's the deal, though, Normally, when you have someone acting 434 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: like that, they are going to respond to shame. Right 435 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: the parent can say, don't do that, don't push your 436 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: brother in the pool. That makes him feel awful, and 437 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 1: the empathy kicks in, right, But we don't have that 438 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: at play. Again, those rules of the game don't apply. 439 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,360 Speaker 1: And another thing that complicates this is again the hereditary 440 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: aspect of it. If one parent has these genes, it's 441 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: about likelihood that they will pass these on. And again 442 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: that's why they were looking at this case study sort 443 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: of in the article of um the father who again 444 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: very anti special to child, but turned a new leaf. 445 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: I guess he was probably about a teenager if I 446 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: remember correctly. Again, it's controversial to even say to point 447 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: to a child and say, you know what, you could 448 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: be a psychopath? Why? Because that's just certainly is a 449 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: societal death sentence, right, I mean, how can you navigate 450 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: the world if you're labeled as such? Yeah, I mean 451 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 1: we have to. The terminology is just so weighted down, 452 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: especially currently, because on one level, psychopath it's a scary terminology. 453 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: I mean, this is the horror movie stuff psychopath. Right. 454 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: No child should have to go through life with that 455 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: kind of a word attached to them. Like you said, 456 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: it's a self fulfilling prophecy. You enter this scenario thinking, oh, 457 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: my child has something deep wrong with them and there's 458 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: no fixing it. To what extend are you're gonna try? 459 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: And you can end up pulling away from that child 460 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: And some of these days have shown, I mean, that's 461 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: where they really want to focus on, and that's where 462 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: you can actually work on treatment, especially in the early ages, 463 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: to try and build that relationship between parent and child, 464 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: not pull back and just give up. Yeah, you're right, 465 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: there's an early study, but maybe a strong choice of words, 466 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: but still the ideas you want to pull closer, yes, 467 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: not pull apart. And there's some results from early stories 468 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: that say that when kids who very least have behavioral 469 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: problems most are callous, unemotional children. If they do get 470 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: the care and loving, really strong baland from a parent 471 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: as much as they possibly can, that there is some 472 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: hope there and some results that show that the kids 473 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: kind of change a little bit. Again, this is this 474 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: is problematic in a sense because parents of those children 475 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: who are sort of getting pummeled by them emotionally and 476 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: sometimes physically, it's really hard to be like, hey, come 477 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: over here and cuddle when you don't know how that 478 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: kid is react to you. And in fact, I remember 479 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: that the mother in this and this article said, you know, 480 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: every time I go to talk to my child, I 481 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: have to gird my loins because I know that at 482 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: some level I'm about to be attacked. So definitely there's 483 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: a lot of intervention that needs to happen. It's not 484 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: something that parents could just go alone on they definitely 485 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 1: need help. There's a summer treatment program that psychologist Dan 486 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: Washbosh runs and this is his attempt to try to 487 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: actually study this in earnest. I think he had about 488 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,719 Speaker 1: twelve kids last summer and he's doubling it this summer. 489 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,479 Speaker 1: But the idea is that you can really look at 490 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: the behavior of callous, unemotional children and begin to pinpoint 491 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: ways to effectively intervene. Here's this attempt, though, to really 492 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: study it, because again, this is something that there's not 493 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: a lot of money to say, Hey, let's study kids 494 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: who may be psychopathic, especially if the stigma is that 495 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: it's not treatable exactly. Here's the crux of it. Here's 496 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: the question, can you teach empathy? Some people say that 497 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: you can, but there is a famous study of an 498 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: inmate therapy group that have the recidivism rate in violent prisoners. 499 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: Recidivism meaning that you know their returned to prison. But 500 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: it increased the rate of successful crimes in psychopaths because 501 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: it improve their ability to mimic regret and self reflection. 502 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: So on one level, it's making them easier to be 503 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: around and uh and more a part of our world 504 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: less of an obstruction, less of an obvious obstruction, but 505 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: maybe more of a subversive obstruction in some cases. Yeah, 506 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: and they have found that as these children have matured, 507 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: they do develop the ability to simulate interest in other 508 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: people's feelings, and that's what they call cognitive empathy. They 509 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: can say what other people feel, they just don't care 510 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: or really feel about it. But most researchers who study 511 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,959 Speaker 1: callous and emotional children hope to teach a kind of 512 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: intellectual morality that's sort of hinged on this idea of 513 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: cognitive empathy. So you know, even if they do have 514 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: a decreased ability to process emotion, the end goal here 515 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: is to avoid violence, right, the outcome that is usually 516 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: present with a psychopath if a child does go in 517 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: that path. So again the thought is that if treatment 518 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: has begun early enough, you could rewire the brain to 519 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: develop greater empathy. It's also worth noting that we've mentioned 520 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: psychopaths in prison, a psychopath that live lives that are 521 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: rather disorganized or self centered. But then there are also 522 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: psychopaths or people that are diagnosed as psychopaths who do 523 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: go on to live very successful and meaningful lives, one 524 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: of which I encountered last year at the World Science 525 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: Festival in New York. There's a neurobiologist by the name 526 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: of James Fallon, and he gave an excellent talk at 527 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: the Moth event last year. He was discussing his own 528 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: investigation a genetic analysis of known psychopaths, and he ended 529 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: up discovering all these markers in his own personal genetic 530 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: history and really had to confront the fact that, well, yeah, 531 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: actually I do line up very well with most of 532 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: these markers for psychopathic behavior. And he's done a lot 533 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: of great work. But even he himself points out, I'm 534 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: a great guy to run into it a party, but 535 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: maybe the closer you are to me in life, more 536 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: problematic the relationship is, right, So you don't have to 537 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: be a psychopath to Actually what I'm saying is that 538 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: some unsomable we're all sorts of sociopath or psychopaths right there. 539 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: There are levels that we can be close to other 540 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: human beings. And I feel like sociopath is a term 541 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: that everyone's a little more comfortable with throwing around in 542 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: everyday conversation at someone who displays the slightest bit of selfishness. 543 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: I feel like I've done that before myself, where I'll 544 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: encounter somebody and they're guilty of at least one incidence 545 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: of selfishness or some sort of callous behavior, and I'll 546 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: be like, oh, that person is a clearly a sociopath. Yeah, 547 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you mentioned the World Science Festival, because 548 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: it is more like a spectrum disorder. This is not 549 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: something that you say that you're just labeled. And also 550 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: he has the mark of Cain. He is going to 551 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: go on to exactly exactly. Pediatric psycho pharmacologist Dr Allen 552 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: Ravitt says that we should be really slow to diagnose 553 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: sociopathy because sometimes it's just a stand in for our 554 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: frustration at not being able to treat somebody, which I 555 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: thought was interesting, right, because this happens with parents a 556 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 1: lot when they're having problems with their kids, Like you 557 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: just want to say what is it so I can 558 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: treat it or go on the boundaries of it. And 559 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: I think just in medicine in general, this is what 560 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: we want to do, to say, label it so we 561 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: can try to figure it out. But he's saying you 562 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: should be really slow in trying to diagnosis, and he's 563 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: also saying that we're just beginning to appreciate the genetic 564 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: and neuro physiological aspects of the problem, and until we 565 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: do more investigation, we're not really going to figure out 566 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: what lever to pull. So I thought that was really 567 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: interesting perspective on it. You have any more psychopathic thoughts, 568 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: um No? I would close that with just a quick quote. 569 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: I really love in the way it relates to how 570 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: we grow into the people, into the adults that we 571 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: eventually become. And it's from playwright Peter Brooks adaptation of 572 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: the Hindu epic the Maha Barita. It goes like this 573 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: birth is obscure and men are like rivers whose origins 574 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: are often unknown. Well, let's crack open the mail back 575 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: and speaking of the World Science Festival, by the time 576 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: this episode airs, you will have returned from this year's 577 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: World Science Festival. It's true. That'll be exciting. Got exit 578 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: planets on the menu? Uh, some Internet related stuff, all 579 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: sorts of good stuff. All right, Well, here is a 580 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: little listener mail from James James rode in in response 581 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: to our Summer Reading podcast, and he wanted to share 582 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: his enthusiasm for a book titled Two Planets by Curd 583 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: Loss fits getting a copy that should probably have to 584 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: go through some used copies from Amazon. And uh, of 585 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: course who knows. It's the kind of thing that might 586 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: come out on kindle any day if it's not already. 587 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: But this was a German science fiction book from and 588 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: it in hired Verne von Braun to get into rocketry 589 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: and uh and also apparently was looked at Walt Disney. 590 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: It was rather keen on as well, of course, an 591 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: acquaintance of Verne von Braun. As we've discussed, it sounds 592 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,959 Speaker 1: really cool, like it's you know, early dreams of space travel, 593 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: early dreams of futuristic technology. And according to James, the 594 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: story starts out with scientists traveling to the North Pole 595 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: and discovering a Martian colony there. So all right, pretty cool. 596 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,479 Speaker 1: If you have anything you would like to share, if 597 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: you would like to discuss psychopathy in adults or children, 598 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: or if you have any thoughts in general about the 599 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: mysteries of child and and the science of childhood development, 600 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: early childhood development especially, let us know. You can reach 601 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: us on our Facebook account where we are Stuff to 602 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind, and on Twitter our handle is blow 603 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: the Mind. Then you can send us an email to 604 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: blow the mind at discovery dot com for more on 605 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Does it, How stuff 606 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: works dot Com